serious-discussion

[tawny mortar]

chernobyl

[solid snow]

🤦‍♂️

[tawny mortar]

look that up

that is what I mean

[solid snow]

yeah that wasnt an explosion

[tawny mortar]

don't be silly

[solid snow]

this is hilarious

[radiant wyvern]

chernobyl isnt a drawback of nuclear energy

[solid snow]

you’re completely misinformed on the topic speaking like you’re an authority on it

[radiant wyvern]

it didnt happen because nuclear energy is inherently bad as i recall it was because the people who constructed the plant cut corners or didnt do everything properly

[solid snow]

yeah

they were doing pretty much everything wrong

[radiant wyvern]

thousands more people have died in coal mines or whatever

i dont mean thousands more people i mean THOUSANDS THE AMOUNT

[tawny mortar]

regardless, still. nuclear energy can definitely. cause some serious damage. especially if nit handled right.

[radiant wyvern]

TIME BY 1000

[tawny mortar]

which is why nothing exploded in the US

so far

[solid snow]

good thing we know how to handle it right

with a bunch of redundancies and safety measures

the most serious damage it would cause is to the portfolio of oil tycoons

[tawny mortar]

the most naive thing is to trust it all 100%. due to nuclear waste and such. just cause it builds up over the years

[solid snow]

good thing im not just blindly trusting

there are decades of research on this

[tawny mortar]

eh

[solid snow]

fossil fuels are actively killing the planet mind you

[radiant wyvern]

the

I will say it again

being antinuclear is a psyop

by big oil and big gas

its some dumb psyop to make people think there isnt enough energy to go around when in fact there is

[silent junco]

iirc theres a legitimate concern about ethical sourcing of uranium

[tawny mortar]

especially on native land

[solid snow]

yeah definitely zero moral dilemmas about fossil fuels sourcing

none ever

no wars fought over this

none

[radiant wyvern]

I dont think thats what theyre saying

[tawny mortar]

💀

and your mad and saying I'm pretending to know things

[solid snow]

my point is that fossil fuels are so much worse that these concerns pale in comparison, not to mention the fact that we could also try to solve the problem of sourcing it ethically

[tawny mortar]

yeah well

it doesn't work like that

money and all

and yes fossil fuels are worse

just stating that nuclear energy is also bad

never said it was the worst

[radiant wyvern]

I want to throttle wael sawan

[silent junco]

i mean this is true, i was just responding to the idea that there are no legitimate concerns about nuclear whatsoever

i am, at the end of the day, pro nuclear

[tawny mortar]

nuclear is literally better than all the other options

I was just describing the thought process of another person, and why they didn't like nuclear energy 💀

[barren anchor]

how are we on this nuclear energy shit again

somebody got pilled by a gas company smh

the only serious concerns with nuclear energy are to do with the costs and liabilities of catastrophic failure of a plant

[icy heron]

New method of conceding an argument without losing face just dropped

[tawny mortar]

😭 💀

I didn't want to waste brain cells on a simple debate

and I didn't really enter the debate. entirely. I just described how the other person most likely thought, as to why nuclear energy was bad. in their eyes

[cinder zephyr]

calc 1 textbook at Ohio State 🗣️ 🔥

[steel vessel]

hi

[solar hawk]

Ohio state is peak fr

[velvet dagger]

Rossoganda at its peak

[cinder zephyr]

I have not been Ross pilled (although two of my roommates have been councilors multiple times)

[solar hawk]

Become Ross pulled

Pilled

It’s good

[solar hawk]

Just like propaganda supporting damiocrasy isn’t propoganda cuz it’s true, rossoganda isn’t rossoganda cuz it’s true

[velvet dagger]

You make a valid point

[solar hawk]

Propoganda* idk which word was supposed to be propoganda but one of them is

Reader exercise

[bright hill]

Propaganda isn't false by definition

[solar hawk]

O

What is it then

[bright hill]

It's like

[solar hawk]

I thought propoganda was false stuff to make people support u

Eg the government

Am I stupid

[bright hill]

An ad campaign ran by the state

[vivid halo]

plenty of propaganda is true or at least mostly true

[solar hawk]

Like if the president said their candidate did bad stuff

Oh ok

[vivid halo]

and it doesn't need to be run by state or government actors

[solar hawk]

Well I mean i only care about the false stuff that’s interesting

If it’s true then isn’t that what they’re supposed to do?

Propaganda has a negative connotation

Atleast for me

That’s stupid

[vivid halo]

well people often exaggerate or mislead with the truth

[bright hill]

Oh right, billionaires and corpos do it too

[solar hawk]

Oh

[vivid halo]

or will assemble facts in such a way so as to effectively mislead and propagandize

[bright hill]

So ig it's just an ad campaign I don't fucking know

[vivid halo]

this is interesting because it's much more convincing than just falling for garbage

[solar hawk]

Fr bruh this is confusing

Hi musicalmather

[fiery stump]

a propaganda is when a british person takes a good look at something

[vivid halo]

Brits aren't allowed to take a good look at anything these days unless they want the police at their door

[fiery stump]

propaganda is material used to influence perception, with a connotation of doing so in a misleading manner

[bright hill]

Just like the old days

[vivid halo]

British shopkeeper visited by police and told to remove sign referring to shoplifters as "scumbags" because "it may offend shoplifters"

[lunar ruin]

Pretty much all media outlets are propagandized. They don't have to ever tell a single lie. They need only choose what truth to tell and/or how to tell it.

[crystal tapir]

Britain went from the land of Orwell to the Orwellian land real quick.

[brave flare]

wow a 2-digit opencry this doesnt happen alot

[old oak]

would be 1 digit if it weren't for the self-react

[mint canopy]

Called out!!!!

[verbal quest]

I had to add a react now
not to support nG
but to support the option of calling Brits scumbags

[crystal tapir]

Say that now.

[old oak]

I have seen the error of my ways

[deep mango]

screams in agony

[bronze pelican]

Peak

Special functions my beloved

I love how there was a period of mathematics when people just wrote entire textbooks about special functions

[pure hollow]

Hello yamin

[bronze pelican]

Hi

[deep mango]

if its still in the free bookshelf do you want me to pick it up for you

[bronze pelican]

Nah

[deep mango]

i might take it anyway

lets see

[jade owl]

Hi

[bronze pelican]

@deep mango did you know about this result ryc? Fourier transform of surface measure on unit sphere is essentially a bessel function

[deep mango]

yes i did! ive used it in the past a little

[deep mango]

how about this, would you want thid

wow

[bronze pelican]

Thanks for offering but you don't need to get it for me

[brave flare]

guy got books

[deep mango]

okay, idk, they're just free

im probably gonna take them anyway cuz theyre cool

[bronze pelican]

Where are you finding them?

[deep mango]

nyu has a bookshelf for people throwing out old textbooks

in the math dept

usually its not this full but someone is retiring

lu ting

most of the books on there rn are about fluid and sound pdes

and aerodynamics

[bronze pelican]

I love how it says mathematical physics in the title but all of these functions are useful in number theory

[deep mango]

yes

it also makes no mention of mathematical physics in the book anywhere i can see

[vast wraith]

i recall seeing something about the hypergeometric functions solving some problem in fluid dynamics

but idr where

[silent junco]

looks interesting

[lunar oracle]

@deep mango can we talk about my proof for RH ?

[glass peak]

Yes RYC can we please see that

[inland hornet]

shoot it

just don't ping random people

[vivid halo]

lol

[latent edge]

Send to my email so I can laugh at it

[onyx zinc]

was there anything on real analysis there

[vocal vessel]

I kinda hate old book smell.

[deft flame]

have you ever done research before?

[latent edge]

Yes.

[deft flame]

do you think you could look over a email im sending to one of my professors about their lab

ive never done this sort of thing before so i'm not sure what to say

@latent edge

[bronze pelican]

Kinda crazy that I need exactly this integral in my computation

[flat harbor]

hypergeo appears as solutions to a lot of pde solutions like schrodingers with coulomb

[deep mango]

yes, a couple books

[deep mango]

insane

[onyx zinc]

can u show pls

[deep mango]

ummm

if i go back up there ill take a pic

they were rando authors idk

[flat harbor]

old book smell is nice every once in a while but i feel it can get stale quickly

and turn into what ud generally imagine as "old room smell"

[vocal vessel]

Smells like elderly people.

[deep mango]

as an expert on RH, i must say i am skeptical on the veracity of your claims

[vocal vessel]

And the viscosity of your clams.

[candid fractal]

3,2,1 Integrate !

[barren anchor]

shocking

[kindred otter]

Not here🤯

[ocean harbor]

https://tenor.com/view/poyo-fumo-touhou-gif-22470927

[foggy meadow]

Bessel?

[bronze pelican]

Yep

[junior pawn]

math is so cool

[smoky solar]

of course it is, we invented it

[echo oasis]

im gonna cry bro the first week of school is about to end and the counselors still haven't switched me into ap precalc

[ocean harbor]

have you gone in person to bother them yet? sometimes they magically work faster once you annoy them enough

[echo oasis]

if im not switched by thursday ill just go to them atp 💔 i was originally gonna do that but they told us specifically not to reach out because they're "working really hard" NOOO YOU ARE NOOOOT 💔

WAITT WTH YOU'RE TURKISH?

ME TOO

😭

[ocean harbor]

yes 🫡

[old ferry]

@wild atlas Hey.

[mint canopy]

Why are your first messages on this server pinging a user that you, apparently, have never interacted with?

[old ferry]

I have, I know her

[fresh comet]

(technically I do this all the time too )

[mint canopy]

OK, sure. We'll see what she has to say about that. As a word of advice, pinging someone once is just fine, on one channel.

[mint canopy]

No you don't. You've been on the server for years. This person's first ever message is pinging someone.

[fresh comet]

I meant my mass pinging new users to welcome them

I understand the difference between welcoming and pinging people randomly, dw

[fresh comet]

also huh. it's been 2 years

I'm so used to being a newgen that it never truly struck me that I won't be called one eventually

[willow juniper]

[polar temple]

the first week of school starts in august ??

where tf are you going to school lmao

[polar temple]

bro is a veteran nerd

i don't think that's an accomplishment

[fresh comet]

I love this server, what can I say?

[fresh comet]

it starts in September for me!

[echo oasis]

usa bruh

🇺🇸 🇺🇸 🦅

[polar temple]

your country is so weird and inconsistent 😭

[echo oasis]

true

[polar temple]

starting the first week in 11th august lmao

do you guys call it summer break bc thats not even summer break anymore

[fresh comet]

I know some places that start on the 25th of August

[polar temple]

thats just a break

[fresh comet]

we start September 2nd

[polar temple]

yeah, thats what i mean

so inconsistent over the country

[fresh comet]

I'm in Canada but I'm fairly sure the situation is similar for much of the US

[echo oasis]

thats what im saying, and i only had about 2-3 weeks anyway cuz i decided to take a class over the summer🥀

[polar temple]

wtf

maths server nerds have gone rampant

[echo oasis]

LMFAOO BRO YOU DONT GET IT I GOTTA LOCK INN

[polar temple]

are you psychologically ok? 😭

have you received trauma in your past to do this

[polar temple]

what year are you in

[echo oasis]

10th now

im newgen

[polar temple]

what does that mean

just started your junior year of hs

[echo oasis]

sophomore 💔

[polar temple]

bruh who locks in that much in sophomores 😭

you should leave it late like me

then hate yourself

[echo oasis]

im good bro i appreciate the offer 🙏

i have a fuckass gpa to maintain 💔

[polar temple]

(hopefully) cook each exam after a torturous final year

this is the way

i dont have that gpa stuff

i get my results in 4 hours

[echo oasis]

tuff

[polar temple]

i need to wake up at 6am to arrive at school by 8am

rn its 4:31am

so idk if i should even sleep 💀💀

[fresh comet]

good luck!!

[polar temple]

not sure if luck will help me now

[echo oasis]

Lucky bro i have to arrive by 7 so i have to wake up at 5 💔

[polar temple]

your lessons start at 7am?

tf?

[echo oasis]

YES BRO

[polar temple]

what kind of shit school do u go to

[echo oasis]

i get like 3 hours of sleep everyday with this schedule

[polar temple]

isnt it a scientific fact that teenagers generally have later circadian rhythms

theyre not supposed to have the same sleep schedule as a 56 year old man 😭

7am is horrible

[echo oasis]

ONG

[polar temple]

schools: you should have 8 hours of sleep everyday

then u have to sleep at 8pm lmao

bruh my school starts at 9 and thats normal

but my secondary school started at 8:30am

7am shouldnt be possible

thats when ur supposed to wake up not arrive at school

[polar temple]

sometimes 10:30 cuz we just go when we have lesson 😭

[frank holly]

is taking 20-1 hounrs in grade 10 bad?

[polar temple]

last year on mondays i started at 12:55pm

and i still came late 😭😭

[ocean harbor]

wdym by hounrs?

[iron gazelle]

Man I gotta wake up at like 6

[grand patrol]

@last crystal in regards to art being political, generally art is considered to be an expression of one’s self; emotions, beliefs interests and ideology but in the case of art being used as a means to launder money, not express interests etc, that takes out the possibility of it being politically charged as the only incentive for creating that art is monetary gain therefore separating it from the attachment to political ideology. IMO this is a case proof that not all art is political. Although it’s likely the overwhelming majority of art is produced with some kind of political agenda

[last crystal]

still at gym

cant read

[calm vessel]

Art can be produced to practice making art

[solid snow]

It’s not about it being created for an express or explicit agenda

The very context of its production is political

Even if you create a piece of art and you’re unaware of this, it’s still true

[zealous garden]

Only as much as it is philosophical or scientific

[solid snow]

Not sure what you meant by this

[solid snow]

Also, I’d say that “art being used as a means to launder money” is pretty political

Or for tax write offs for that matter

[zealous garden]

I mean that sure, in the sense that politics is a backdrop influencing the artists decisions and what they even choose to think about

But in that sense it's also scientific, cultural, philosophical, religious even

I don't find it a very useful sense

[zealous garden]

Sounds economical to me

[solid snow]

You dont think specific policies that allow that to happen aren’t political?

[zealous garden]

Like "the very context of its production" is a very weak reason to assert that it is therefore political, religious, ...

[solid snow]

Or the fact that the crime syndicate exists to begin with

[zealous garden]

Stretch as fuck

[solid snow]

Bruh

[zealous garden]

That's like saying my clothing choice is political because its a political decision to force me to wear clothes

[solid snow]

How exactly is it a stretch?

No, but the fact that you’re able to but cheaply made clothes at retail stores is political

[zealous garden]

It's a political decision that I'm alive right now, is my life a political statement?

[zealous garden]

No it isn't

[solid snow]

Yes, your life is political

[zealous garden]

That's economical

[zealous garden]

No it isn't

If you want to argue there are political aspects, sure, I'll accept that, that's true

It is not political

My blood is red

I am not red

You are conflating a piece with the whole unnecessarily

[solid snow]

Why would that be what something being “political” means

[zealous garden]

Economics is concerned with economics

[solid snow]

I am using the word in this way

[zealous garden]

Politics is only involved as such as it impacts economics

[solid snow]

,w political

[fathom swallow]

Results provided by WolframAlpha

Click here to refine your query online
Upgrade to WolframAlpha Pro!

Requested by penury

[zealous garden]

I'd say that's disingenuous, because that's not what people mean when they say something is "political"

[solid snow]

These seem pretty aligned with my usage

[zealous garden]

When someone says something is political, they mean that politics is a focal subject

[solid snow]

This is just semantics about the word political now

But aight

[zealous garden]

Duh? Isn't that what it was from the beginning

Was that not obvious to you

Saying "all art is political" is disingenuous, it reads as "all art is about politics" in most contexts to most people

[solid snow]

Because I thought it was understood that I didn’t mean that the entire purpose or reason for being of something was entirely political

[solid snow]

Why is this my concern

This is literally just an argument based on people misinterpreting what I’m saying

[zealous garden]

why would I want to be understood?

Yes, so it would behoove you to not be misinterpreted no?

[solid snow]

I’m not really sure I said anything too ambiguous

[zealous garden]

Evidently

[zealous garden]

Like this isnt about politics, the policy isnt a focal subject. The focal subject is making money, policies influence how this is done but it's not about them

Especially since we're laundering, we are violating the policies!

Showing we really don't care

It's not political

It could be

But you won't find the argument in the description given

[solid snow]

Again, I don’t think the word “political” is commonly used to mean that politics is the entire focus

[zealous garden]

Not the entire but a main focal subject

And I do think it is

If I look for political X, I expect X but about politics

Every time

[solid snow]

This is just you fam

[eager reef]

That’s you

[zealous garden]

If I look up a political podcast and they only mention politics every 5th episode I'll be disappointed

If I look for political comic books and its all Garfield saying "I hate mondays" I'll be confused

[solid snow]

Because the meaning of words depend on context…

[zealous garden]

If you look for a political musician and dont find politics, you'll be quite confused

The adjective political means that its about politics

Focally

[solid snow]

,w political

[fathom swallow]

Results provided by WolframAlpha

Click here to refine your query online
Upgrade to WolframAlpha Pro!

Requested by penury

[zealous garden]

Homie doesn't even know what a nondegenerate bilinear form is

[solid snow]

I do know what that is

Why is that relevant tho

[zealous garden]

Because different sources give widely different definitions

[solid snow]

These are not widely different than the ones wolfram gave

[zealous garden]

And wolfram (specifically ,w) is a particularly terrible source

[zealous garden]

So in what sense are you using political

[solid snow]

Im pretty sure I said this many messages ago

[zealous garden]

I'm using 1,2,4 here

[solid snow]

Here

[zealous garden]

No you didn't that's circular

Because I used political in that definition

In my specific sense

[solid snow]

Ok this is a pretty trite argument that im not interested in pursuing any further

[zealous garden]

Which you now disagree with

[glass peak]

All art is political is just a true statement, art doesn’t just appear out of a vacuum.

If you read that as “all art is about politics” that’s a you issue, because that’s just not at all what was claimed

[zealous garden]

It's okay, you can be wrong about the definition of political art, I won't hold you

Just don't ask me to be wrong too

[zealous garden]

Love you too buddy

[sharp shale]

Hey All

Maths game that I developed tinyguess.com

[edgy tiger]

I entered the domain into my web surfing service and immediately saw two hyperrealistic bleeding eyes. It gave me one hundred million troy viruses and traumatized me. My whole house is now haunted with ghosts trying to murder me.

[edgy tiger]

Sometimes I wanna keep using mathcord but then realize like some of these guys humour codes are absolutely wacly for me to understand

And I realizes some of the other guys might feel the same for me

Yeah I'm totally fine off discussy now

,iam studying

[fathom swallow]

Gave you the studying! selfrole.

[ocean harbor]

idk how to play it lol

my guess was n618 and the correct answer said 3

how does that work I don't get it

[livid night]

"Im nothing like yall" ah

[vast wraith]

and he's right !!

[livid night]

Im so proud

[halcyon lagoon]

-# pjsk fan spotted

[sharp shale]

Hey it’s 8-6+1 =3

So if you see numbers like n618 apply a+-b+-c

Tinyguess.com it’s math plus guessing

[sharp shale]

Let’s see if someone beats the leaderboard

[fiery stump]

oh yeah i love guessing games, so fun

[unkempt agate]

Any advice for calc 2-3 and linear algebra?

[mint canopy]

Read and do problems

[unkempt agate]

Nothing special then?

[vast wraith]

with this one trick you can learn calculus and linear algebra in two seconds !!!!

[mint canopy]

It's not mathematics from mars

[livid night]

I said you were special

Lies

[ocean harbor]

ya u also play pjsk?

[ocean harbor]

oh ic

that looks a stupid question I've asked lmao

[halcyon lagoon]

Ye ye

Love that game

[ocean harbor]

i have been playing the game for 2 months now and i got my 5th fc on expert today 🙂

win is a win

the match was luck lmao

[jaunty ibex]

[willow crystal]

[ocean harbor]

[restive salmon]

[jagged forge]

i haven't heard the term "FC" since i was addicted to rock band in like 2010

[vivid quest]

^Can a mod delete this message and mine so the bnuuy chain can continue?

[ocean harbor]

fc stands for full combo

[jagged forge]

yeah i know. FC stood for full combo then too

[gusty bough]

[untold sapphire]

is hentai political

[twin flicker]

i dont think so

[solid yarrow]

Political hentai... hm... kinky

[inner canopy]

in france it is

[junior pawn]

Math is underrated

[azure bluff]

amen

[fresh comet]

@azure bluff welcome to the mathcord

[azure bluff]

ty!

[velvet dagger]

To speculate myself and localize to the US since I'm somewhat able to reason there. In principle there are different types of things for which you want the government to step out of the picture. The naive partition is social issues vs economic issues
Republicans classically have been all about propping up big business in America, and as time goes on they go big on the socially conservative angle

• Big businesses benefit from deregulation and fewer taxes, which aligns vaguely with libertarianism
• With fewer taxes come fewer social services, which is also simultaneously a Republican stance and a libertarian stance
• That said, a naive instinct might be to use eg tariffs to attempt to prop up American business at the expense of foreign (the effectiveness is ofc questionable), while libertarianism in principle would be much more firmly laissez-faire
• Social conservativism tends to be not very libertarian, eg banning weed or whatever

So a true firm libertarian kind of agrees with each party "roughly half the time"

Some people who agree with Republicans but wanna go a bit more toward actual libertarianism will call themselves libertarian but not go all the way, and I figure that might be what you're talking about, since you'd think libertarians don't want systemic inequalities and in fact barely want systemic anything. I figure they'd like to be able to use a men in black memory eraser and wipe out the inequality, and hope that government not being much of a thing would make things play out the right way (whether this is true or not is another question, but this would be the concept).

[restive salmon]

Im here too

Wowowwo

[velvet dagger]

Hahahaha, yeah I have been giving these long extended musings a lot lately

[vivid quest]

That's alright compared to what maya and I have been doung lol

[zealous garden]

Based

[silent junco]

the word libertarian has been largely co opted by the right, but there are still a lot of left anarchists who call themselves libertarian and draw a distinction between libertarian and anarchocapitalist (what you're referring to)

[velvet dagger]

Yeah that seems to be tied to what I was saying whereby, at least at some point in time libertarian basically meant "Republican but legalize weed"

[vivid quest]

Oh libertarian socialist

I've heard that before

What does it mean exactly?

[torpid bay]

feel like jumbo shrimp rn to me

[silent junco]

idk about hentai but fanservice and misogynist depictions of women/girls in anime is very political. patriarchy reproduces itself through media by creating unrealistic objectified standards of docile, submissive, and "idealized" women (ideal for consumption by men).

[velvet dagger]

Yeah I am with you on this point, a libertarian in the honest sense of the word wouldn't likely be fond of systemic racism and such, in fact would feel that without governments historically promoting these inequalities we wouldn't have them

[vivid quest]

Yes i understand that i might je confused about the meaning of libertarian. It's kinda hard to understand the real convictions or goals of the modern right imo

[velvet dagger]

Well the reason I went on this long rant is less "You don't understand libertarianism" so much as, there's the idea of what libertarianism probably was supposed to be, and then how it is in practice

[vivid quest]

What i wanted to say is that i've seen people defend libertarianism is the particular way i described

Which is a thing

But it might indeed be not widespread at all

[silent junco]

my unsophisticated understanding is that its the same as a socialist with an emphasis on individual freedoms. its still a very anti capitalist ideology and doesnt believe in markets or any of the usual stuff you associate with libertarians.

[untold cedar]

I thought I was libertarian

apparently I'm not.. what am I then?

I very much support social services, welfare etc etc. "even if a few lazy people slip thru". body autonomy, do whatever the fuck u want in bed, marry whoever u want, fuck (almost) whoever u want

but at the same time I like capitalism

[silent junco]

youre a liberal

[untold cedar]

but, capitalism

[silent junco]

liberals like capitalism

[vivid quest]

So basically a libertarian is for freedom: on the socialist side it's individual freedom,on the capitalist side it's also freedom of the markets?

[untold cedar]

https://tenor.com/view/blinking-eyes-white-guy-blinking-meme-what-huh-gif-26334322

[velvet dagger]

Probably a few people who label themselves libertarian are people who want a small government banner to accomplish that which they'd be happy to accomplish without a small government banner. Especially a small federal government

If you're honestly libertarian you might very well want state governments as well to be small. But if you're conservative in a conservative state which wants to disallow abortion, making the federal government small enables you to ban it in your state

[vivid quest]

Yes, liberals are like a bit social democrats which is still capitalism

[untold cedar]

ig I'm a superposition of a leftist and a centrist

[silent junco]

i guess so, id caution against trying to find an all encompassing ideology that can be called "libertarianism" because the historical trajectory of the word has not been linear and its come to mean two or more almost entirely different things

[velvet dagger]

So imo that's why libertarianism seems so easy to associate with the right, because the first approximation enables it as long as you hard avoid the second approximation

Democrats and the left kinda can't be too libertarian because... Hmm

[vivid quest]

In my country thepeoplewho call themselves that are capitalists. But that depend son the country becausecentrists are generally pro status quo, so it might shiftif you country is already socialist

[vivid quest]

Some democrats are very libertarian lol

Maybe even a lot

[velvet dagger]

Some probably, since you'll have a squadron that's single issue

And if you're libertarian who prioritizes certain single issues, the left will definitely be more your jam

That's the thing with the labels

People often have a fairly incoherent and possibly fluid set of policy positions, maybe certain general principles they care about quite a lot

[vivid quest]

Seeing how the democrats have been hating mamdani, i think there are a lot of libertarians in there

[velvet dagger]

So they'll align with a party on one matter but not the other

The Democrat Mamdani stuff seems to be less about the "philosophy of the Democratic party" I will say and more a feature of the internal politics of the party

I get the vibe that within the party Democrats really care about seniority and waiting your turn and all

[silent junco]

if you mean establishment democrats you're giving them too much credit. most of them don't have enough conviction to even have a well defined ideological stance

[vivid quest]

To cpunter my own argument a main question for the mamdani election was the support of isreal which is a conservative/liberal topic and not a libertarian/socialist one

[silent junco]

mamdani is scary to them because he pushes the standard to the left

[vivid quest]

Indeed

[velvet dagger]

My impression is that Cuomo is an extreme liability that they'd be willing to overlook that sentiment of seniority at least once, so I'm surprised they cling to him as hard as he does. But maybe yeah they worry Mamdani is a bit too much of a shakeup

[vivid quest]

Not sure, like bernie sanders pushed for democrat socialist measures and was put aside despite being very popular and old

[velvet dagger]

Since there is def the pro-business wing of the Democratic party and Mamdani isn't gonna be as bueno for them + he might be enough of a proof of concept that many more people get primaried

[torpid bay]

[velvet dagger]

I mean the seniority stuff in the Democratic party would've harmed Sanders even if the Democratic party was otherwise hyperleft

Since Sanders wasn't quite a member of the party prior as I recall

[vivid quest]

Oh ye

[silent junco]

yeah

[vivid quest]

I thought you meant just being old

Lol

Im dumb

[velvet dagger]

And therefore the sentiment was "Okay now it's Clinton's turn"

[vivid quest]

[velvet dagger]

Oh yeah seniority within the party I meant, very "Wait your turn"

[vivid quest]

That's a good system if you want people not to vote for you

You gotta give them that

[velvet dagger]

Truth be told I wouldn't be surprised if the wait your turn sentiment is probably the actual reason the Democratic party hesitates to go left on certain economic issues?

Well that + they do have to contend with the US fundamentally being kinda conservative

[silent junco]

no its the other way around

[velvet dagger]

Well I'm suggesting it as being not quite a common wisdom suggestion, but I almost wonder if the Democratic party wouldn't mind if the junior folk became old, and started going more left now that they've slowly earned their way to the front

[solid snow]

i dont think so

[silent junco]

nope. seniority is valued because the leftists get weeded out quickly

weeded out or molded

[solid snow]

its not really about that more so than protecting their donors interests

which are corporate

[vivid quest]

When you look at the party funding system in the us,you realize that dems don't have areal choice but to stay on the economic right

[silent junco]

its ontologically necessary for the democrats to push right

[solid snow]

the best summary of the national dems platform i heard was that theyre pandering for a type of conservative that only exists on the editorial board of the guardian

[silent junco]

yeah lol

[velvet dagger]

Is it ontologically necessary? Tbh my impression of moderate Democrats is that they are very happy with the outcomes the left desires in principle but just think it's a fantasy, at least in the current political state of America

[vivid quest]

Leftist measures seem to be a very secondary preocupation of the democrats

I mean the party

[torpid bay]

what if the democrat party got funding instead from overseas markets?

[silent junco]

whatever they pretend to be happy with is just populism. actual policy wise they will necessarily push right because the state exists to suppress the working class at the behest of the ruling class

[vivid quest]

Comrad you have to hide your theory a bit not for capitalists to feel brutalized, convince them without saying socialist words so that they don't resist the logical reasoning

[solid snow]

AIPAC

[vivid quest]

I be trolling a bit but it's kinda true

[leaden torrent]

🙄

[torpid bay]

hm

[vivid quest]

[torpid bay]

if democrats heavily invested in vietnamese factories and got shares from there and promoted vietnamese items over chinese ones... wouldn't they end up having quite a bit of economic power to wield over the us companies?

[vivid quest]

They would become a corporation and defend their own interests in policies lol

That's the worst case scenario

[torpid bay]

bernie sanders the vietnamese factories or smthn (bernie sanders is now a verb)

[velvet dagger]

The way I've seen them describe it, they probably feel the country isn't really "ready"

They'll see the young leftists as having all these ambitions and they love that for them but think that hey, we need to lay a lot more groundwork for your stuff to be a reality. If you try to enact it now you won't have the support and the economics won't work, so just wait your turn while we try to shift the landscape one inch at a time, and by the time it's your turn maybe your vision becomes realistic.

Some of the very left ideas (eg full on socialism) they don't like at all. Partially because it's got a very deep rooted stigma in the minds of many from that era, partially that they are juggling the interests of their sponsors who might be down for... Becoming very liberal but still liberal rather than socialist, let's say.

Rays contends this is a cover, which... I could see it both ways, hard to say.

[silent junco]

yeah that doesnt work, thats the end stage of imperialism

[solid snow]

im also not sure that campaign funding is the main hurdle here anyways

its not like kamala lost because the dems were too broke

[velvet dagger]

The talk of funding isn't to make Democrats win

It's proposed as why the Democrats aren't as willing to move to the left

[leaden torrent]

trying to give an economic explanation for the election results is proudly ignorant of the actual preferences of the voterbase

[silent junco]

i mean you just need to observe the trend in their messaging and policy over the last several decades to see that they have continually pushed right because they are at full liberty to do so

[leaden torrent]

trump's economic policies had a very high disapproval rating prior to the election, much higher than trump himself

but voters vote on culture war issues

[silent junco]

thats not the thing we're discussing though

[leaden torrent]

every democratic presidential nominee has been more left-wing than the last

[silent junco]

we're not discussing the results of the election, we're discussing the policy of the politicians

[leaden torrent]

you could argue theres more to the party than just the president, which is true

but also much harder to quantify

[velvet dagger]

Well, policy proposals are partially meant to be in response to voterbase preferences

[leaden torrent]

but socialist wings of the party are ascendant in a way they havent been before

especially in dem strongholds like new york

[solid snow]

imo this is too charitable of a view of dem party leadership

[silent junco]

and the bigger the backlash they get from the senior faction of the party

[leaden torrent]

i dont really care about some random tweets from old senators tbh

[torpid bay]

I was trying to think of ways to get the dem party to not be so economically reliant on the companies that may or may not want to go against left wing economic policies but idunno. some groundwork to get done i nthe background whilst other cultural issues are worked on

[leaden torrent]

AOC isnt really having practical issues getting her objectives accomplished in the house relative to any other dem

i think the only left-wing politician with power that you can argue is being excluded from the rest of the party is sanders, but he chose to run as an independent so i think he was expecting that

maybe tlaib?

[velvet dagger]

And yeah this is why I'm not entirely disinclined to take a subset of Democrats somewhat at face value. So we may not quite be on the trajectory that perhaps could've been hoped for had the New Deal Coalition gone full steam ahead, but did it not start to fall down because the Southern strategy just worked?

[leaden torrent]

the democratic party is like any other institution

it has its own values and concerns but its members are principally concerned with their own survival and self-interest

they will compromise on their values if they feel their affluence being threatened

this is far from unique to the dems; it is a necessary result of any system in which power is distributed to individuals

[vivid quest]

That's probably just an excuse, because if the aim was to make the country lean mire towards the left, they'd enact as many left measures as possible before trump get in power and massively tilts the country to the right once again

[leaden torrent]

how?

[vivid quest]

They'd at least try lol

[leaden torrent]

dems only held all 3 branches for a couple years, and only by the thinnest of possible margins

how do you push any legislation past manchin

[velvet dagger]

Yeah trying if you know you're gonna fail doesn't strike me as productive

[solid snow]

biden economic policy was fairly level headed and the economy was doing great on paper

this didnt matter to voters who voted based on vibes

[leaden torrent]

one of biden's first acts was trying to pass student loan forgiveness via executive order, so as to get around needing to go through the senate - this was immediately held up in teh courts and the administration spent the rest of his presidency fighting it

im not pretending biden was some hardcore lefty or anything but like

[velvet dagger]

Biden did as well as he could've on the economic front to my understanding

[leaden torrent]

he did try to lean left on a couple issues and was repeatedly stopped

[vivid quest]

Ye sure

[leaden torrent]

you could argue that biden should've acted like trump

that is, ignoring the courts and pushing through his policies anyway regardless of whether they're legal

[vivid quest]

I'd argue this country is cooked

[leaden torrent]

but i feel like the conservative-majority supreme court would've ruled a lot differently if it was biden doing it and not trump

[velvet dagger]

Yeah the left does not have enough political capital in this country to pull stuff off. As far as I can tell they are not doing nearly as good of a job as they could in amassing said political capital

I know this one guy who's a fairly leftist poly sci graduate student and studies a lot of data

[leaden torrent]

well this is where the main split is in the left wing of american policits

the DSA itself is split between those who want to run within the democratic party (Mamdani, AOC, etc) and those who want to run as independents or as a separate left-wing party

and then theres many leftists who reject democratic socialism entirely (hence arent members of the DSA)

and who think that socialist goals can be achieved only by revolution, not democratic incrementalism

[vivid quest]

I think the democrats would getmore votes if they were more on the left ideologically, which could allow them to very slowly undo the what the republicans have been doing if they wer elected more frequently, that's my readoning

[velvet dagger]

I don't buy it

Democrats didn't lose eg the just recent presidential election because they lost leftist voters

[leaden torrent]

more voters in 2020 said that biden was "far left" than said trump was "far right"

[velvet dagger]

Trump 2024 beat Biden 2020 numbers in swing states

[leaden torrent]

the american media apparatus has created a very hostile climate for left-wing policy

[velvet dagger]

A lot of people just aren't leftist

[leaden torrent]

"liberal" is basically an insult outside of major cities

[vivid quest]

They didn't loose them, but they could have gotten mire conservatives by doing that

[leaden torrent]

and speaking of which, insulting cities is very common in US political discourse but insulting rural folk is considered a grave insult to American dignity itself

[vivid quest]

Some people are racist but still want free healthcare

[leaden torrent]

America just has a very conservative-biased self-image right now

[velvet dagger]

In fact apparently a lot of new votes for Trump were people who were basically going to vote against the Democrats no matter what

Because inflation

[leaden torrent]

i think thats overblown as well

[solid snow]

us voters will shoot their own foot to own the libs

[leaden torrent]

voters say they vote trump because inflation but they actually vote trump because they hate brown people

or trans people or whatever

[solid snow]

i dont want it to be real but it is the truth

[velvet dagger]

Well did those people not already vote for Trump in 2020 and 2016?

[leaden torrent]

trump didnt really convert many voters in 2024

what he did is had increased turnout from non-voters

you can look at the numbers

dem turnout went down, republican turnout went up

[torpid bay]

wasn't there quite a significant margin between votes from young people (quite a few men voted trump)

[leaden torrent]

the idea of the fence sitter who switches votes in response to policy isnt really backed by evidence

[vivid quest]

People, even racists, are a bit more complex than that

[solid snow]

not really

[leaden torrent]

of course im oversimplifying

[solid snow]

ask the average american about specific policies

like seriously

[velvet dagger]

Yeah, and those non-voters who come out were the ones that I thought were not hardcore maga folk but the ones who don't even know what the branches of government are and just vote against the incumbent because life got harder

[solid snow]

do this irl

[velvet dagger]

That's what I meant by inflation losing the election for Democrats, rather than people who flip based on policy

[solid snow]

the common denominator for “why trump” is “vibes”

[woven sail]

There’s actually a statistic that given the option white people will most likely always vote republican

[vivid quest]

I think a lot of people voted for trump because they're racist and he told them he would solve all their problems, but i think that if someone on the left told them about quality of life measure, they could agree as well

[steel vessel]

hi

[leaden torrent]

then why arent those people winning dem primaries?

[woven sail]

Hey clau

[leaden torrent]

like the primary electorate is obviously different from the general electorate

[steel vessel]

hi may

[leaden torrent]

but i would wager that the average dem primary voter is more sympathetic to left-wing appeals than the average general election voter

so why are only a handful of progressives able to win dem primaries nationally?

[vivid quest]

Ye true

[leaden torrent]

and mostly in dem strongholds like new york and california

[vivid quest]

I think the media and all play a huge role in dems primary

[torpid bay]

^

[leaden torrent]

you get exceptions like fetterman (he ran as a progressive in the primaries) but uh, then he had a stroke and became a blue dog dem lol

[vivid quest]

But the same for the global voters

[heady pagoda]

wasn't this debunked

[leaden torrent]

not sure what you mean by debunked

there is a visible gender gap in voting patterns, especially among younger voters

buuuut young men still were like D+10 or something

[velvet dagger]

Media matters and add far as I can tell, one of the things Democrats seem to be underutilizing

[leaden torrent]

its just that young women were like D+20

so theres like a visible gap there

but even young men are still fairly solidly pro-democrat, just not as much as young women are

[heady pagoda]

I have no idea how much this site can be trusted but anyway:https://cawp.rutgers.edu/blog/gender-differences-2024-presidential-vote

[velvet dagger]

As people in power you have something of a platform to try and influence the populace. You cannot will that people subscribe to you but you can work harder

[vivid quest]

The vibe i get from this convo is that im wrong for having hope for this country

Which might be true

[solid snow]

its certainly in a deep hole

[velvet dagger]

I mean, the people are just more conservative than many want to believe

And if the left wants to make progress they need to contend with that fact. Start trying to influence people. Start with the people who are uninformed about politics

[torpid bay]

hm

yeah im looking at that same one

[velvet dagger]

Use the media, argue your positions, etc

[leaden torrent]

"the electorate", broadly speaking, wants contradictory things

it wants progress without change

it wants growth without diversity

it wants spending without taxes

[torpid bay]

seems like a gap difference by 1% ish really, and more so a general trend overall then huh

but yeah a consistent gap

[vivid quest]

The gaps have increased since 2024

[barren anchor]

sounds like the same bland strategic thinking the many media managers involved are certainly aware of

[leaden torrent]

you ask a small-town right winger if they want more money brought into their community and theyll say yes, of course; you ask them if they want rich city people to build more factories and bring in immigrant workers and they'll say no, of course not

you ask a big city progressive if they want more housing for the poor and they'll say yes, of course; you ask them if they want to live next to poor people and they'll say no, of course not

[vivid quest]

[barren anchor]

I would like to be the person who designs the voting system for Elon Musk's fully-automated, self-sustaining eco-space station

[torpid bay]

'eco-space' hmmmm

[heady pagoda]

The voting system is already solved and it is basically opposite of electoral college

[barren anchor]

that hyphen landed different i no

[velvet dagger]

Let's make this even better: not just America

[barren anchor]

eco space-station

[torpid bay]

the uk

[leaden torrent]

yeah american democracy is not uniquely bad

it does have some uniquely bad aspects, like the power of the president

but every democracy - every society, really - faces similar issues

[solid snow]

and the senate

[velvet dagger]

Anti-immigration sentiment is on the rise.

The way Democrats lost ground in 2024? So did incumbents in a ton of the developed world, I think basically all of it if I recall correctly

[solid snow]

well idk if that’s unique to america really

i just dislike the senate

[leaden torrent]

2024 was really bad for incumbents yeah, outside of japan

[vivid quest]

For now we've only destroyed my hopes for the US, I still have hope for other countries, but ye go ahead and destroy it

😭

[leaden torrent]

(which is basically a 1 party democracy)

[barren anchor]

perfect

[heady pagoda]

corruption galore

[leaden torrent]

its more like

in japan, party politics are government politics

[vivid quest]

Not every country has a 2 party system fortunately

[leaden torrent]

like, for a comparison, in NYC everyone was paying attention to the democratic primary for mayor between mamdani and cuomo

[vivid quest]

But ye

The left lost ground

[leaden torrent]

because the winner of that dem primary is almost guaranteed to become mayor

so the primary is the "real" election

japan doesnt have party primaries but its basically similar

the LDP candidate almost always wins, but who becomes the LDP candidate is a real power struggle

[barren anchor]

yeah for sure. People would just shift their designations to something more granular

[velvet dagger]

Sure but my point is that, incumbent losing ground everywhere means that Democrats losing in 2024 doesn't even feel like the Democrats messing up so much as... Yeah shit got harder in the last few years, even if Biden did a lot of things right

[barren anchor]

like ya we're both LDP, but I'm pro-youngs stay and I'm(some other guy here) pro-import youngs

[velvet dagger]

And a subset of people blame who's in power for that

[heady pagoda]

what is causing the global right wing shift anyway?

[barren anchor]

lol there's a lot right with it

[solid snow]

immigration and media

[barren anchor]

ya sure biden's campaign whipped

[velvet dagger]

If Republicans had the presidency in 2020-2024, and there was inflation (or likely an economic meltdown), Democrats would win now

[vivid quest]

Capitalism

[velvet dagger]

Nah I don't think it's capitalism

[vivid quest]

Capitalism tends to fascism

But im not ready to havea full debate on that

[leaden torrent]

it is very funny though that the person that set up a literal red-beret-wearing paramilitia is the least left-wing person in the NYC mayor race

[velvet dagger]

I'm not sure I immediately buy that, but even if I did, incumbents losing ground is a function of people's views going more to the right

[barren anchor]

nyc is a special case

and funy

it likes to be fun

[leaden torrent]

incumbents did lose everywhere but it was mostly to more right-wing parties

i think the UK is the more notable exception

[vivid quest]

They're being lied to, misinformed and manipulated for a huge part, the background has been set for that to happen

[barren anchor]

it's like do u want 1. a supercop or 2. a communist?

[velvet dagger]

Capitalism was around before

[leaden torrent]

but that was after 2 decades of blatant tory mismanagement

so i wouldnt really extrapolate from the UK

the tories were uniquely bad and labour was in a better position to capitalize

now that labour is in power, a right wing party is ascendant again.. but its not the tories

[velvet dagger]

Tbh the unfortunate reality seems to be that a lot of the identity politics is just fundamentally what drives people

[leaden torrent]

suggesting that i think that was just the tories being uniquely shit lol

[solid snow]

i think people are not content with the cost of living

[velvet dagger]

Like if you go back to the New Deal Coalition era in US history, the southern strategy kicks in not too long after they also start trying to prioritize civil rights and minority groups

[leaden torrent]

but yeah, political affiliation is basically a cultural allegiance, similar almost to a religion

[velvet dagger]

That's when Republicans start winning again big time

[leaden torrent]

this is especially true in the us because of the strength of the 2 party system, but far from unique to it

if your parent voted republican, you almost certainly vote republican yourself

there are exceptions but i think its like <10%

this is less true for dems because dems attract more first-generation higher-educated voters

[fresh comet]

I wonder what the stats are like here

[leaden torrent]

but its still a matter of cultural identity, just that the dem culture is less tied to family/parenting and more to economic/educational background

which should make sense, as dems are the more educated party in general

[vivid quest]

Lol i live in a country in which there are like 7 different seemingly "viable" political parties in the election, they change name around every 10 years or even less, they split, ally and do nonlinear stuff, so that kind of allegiance is hard to get

[leaden torrent]

netherlands?

[velvet dagger]

Also I remember hearing something about... You know that one senator who's a Democrat but doesn't wanna get on board with half of what everyone wants? And is why even when Dems have a slim majority they can't do that much?

[fresh comet]

most of my friends' parents voted conservative in the recent election, while most of my friends themselves voted liberal

[vivid quest]

No

[velvet dagger]

I think he's from WV but I forget offhand

[vivid quest]

France

But

[leaden torrent]

manchin? he's no longer a senator

but yeah

[velvet dagger]

Right real

[vivid quest]

I don'thave a long history of voting

[heady pagoda]

I find this random reddit comment more compelling

[leaden torrent]

ah

[vivid quest]

So i might be lacking the history of the right

[leaden torrent]

in fairness france has 3 like, "wings" to its politics, and the party names just change within those wings

theres the right wingers/le pen branch, the centrists/macron branch, and the leftists

people are pretty unlikely to cross "between" these wings

[vivid quest]

The number of wings kinda always change imo

[velvet dagger]

But yeah I recall hearing commentary about that guy, namely that really he was winning as a Dem because they had so many people who were religiously Dem

[leaden torrent]

but there is indeed a lot of movement within them

[velvet dagger]

In the same way that many are religiously Republican

But if that group of voters, if you remove the party label, have more Republican vibes than Democrat

[leaden torrent]

if you want to know the real problem with american politics though

its the small business owner

[barren anchor]

it's gonna be funny when people realize it just doesn't matter. There's no (effective) left wing alternative, the mainstream and conservative alternatives are bad. At least people are trying things.

[vivid quest]

Maybe it's a me problem to consider the anticapitalist party that makes 2% a branch of its own

[leaden torrent]

the person living in a town of 30k people making $5 million/year off their car dealership

these people are stupidly wealthy relative to their education and cultural influence

and theyre mad about it

[barren anchor]

coming at small business!

[heady pagoda]

Trump was unironically the worst thing they could have tried

[velvet dagger]

It's a rounding error

[leaden torrent]

they often employ illegal immigrants while themselves wanting mass deportation

[barren anchor]

the easiest to rule out is the first one to rule o ut!

[leaden torrent]

that kinda thing

they have nothing better to do with their money than to fund culture war issues

[vivid quest]

Idk what's wrong with rounding up .3% to 2%

[heady pagoda]

they had to rule his ass out twice

[barren anchor]

first time they forgot to take notes

[leaden torrent]

and both parties suck up to them because they have money, consistently vote, and get their communities to vote

[barren anchor]

classic it ain't government unless done twice

[leaden torrent]

and because the idea of the "small business owner creating jobs" is basically mythologized in american culture

(despite the majority of job creation nowadays coming from larger businesses)

[velvet dagger]

Oh... I meant that the entire party is a 2% rounding error off of the empty set

[leaden torrent]

no one will defend big business, people hate amazon and walmart and shit

[velvet dagger]

.3% is even worse

[leaden torrent]

but everyone defends small business owners

despite them often being much worse

[velvet dagger]

Honestly I can definitely buy that knowing... What I do about small business

[heady pagoda]

I guess I should be a small business owner, will take a small loan of one million dollar to make my small 5 million per year profit

[barren anchor]

I haven't heard this opinion before, it's interesting.

[leaden torrent]

read this article: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/05/rich-republicans-party-car-dealers-2024-desantis.html if youre interested in hearing about this demographic

its from 2 years ago

[velvet dagger]

All I'm gonna say is, what I know of Texas truck folk is... Quite something LMFAO

[barren anchor]

I know a bunch of mid ass small business owners (software consultants, legal consultants, shop owners) who do want to pay their employees nothing, but they also aren't making 5 million dollars.

and they've got 1-5 employees

[leaden torrent]

$5 million is the upper echelon, most of them indeed make a lot less

but they still make more than they'd earn working a salaried job

[velvet dagger]

But yeah nah I do kinda think the left wants to attribute everything to capitalism when really... Even if it is inherently a problem, it's by far the only one

[leaden torrent]

if you're half-decent at what you do you can make good money

[velvet dagger]

I've seen this a bit in housing policy

[heady pagoda]

isn't software consultant like ideal job

[leaden torrent]

but not good enough money to be happy, so you start looking to dodge taxes, pay employees less, underpay overtime, etc

[velvet dagger]

Everyone wants to say that the real reason there's a housing shortage is that you have massive landlord companies that hold everything off the market to raise prices

[barren anchor]

yea but you know it's like they literally get more value out of their employees than they pay, but I don't think it's anywhere near the extant that monopolic corporations are able to get

[leaden torrent]

in big businesses, basically everyone with this sort of decision making power is salaried

like yeah, they'll get a bonus if they drive profits

[velvet dagger]

And once the vacancies are occupied that's it gg housing crisis solved

[barren anchor]

and they employ way less people

[leaden torrent]

but their income isnt directly tied to "how much is left over after i pay employees"

they get a flat income that's secure for them no matter what

and then maybe bonuses after

[barren anchor]

like just googling, large corporations are less than .5% of businesses but they employ 25% of everyone in the US

[leaden torrent]

but if you own a small business, that $15/hr you pay that immigrant worker is money out of your bank account directly

its far more directly connected to them

and so naturally youre more incentivized to find ways to underpay them

or to lower your taxes or whatever

[velvet dagger]

But... Yeah that doesn't seem to be the reality.

First off unless keeping half of your homes off the market doubles the rent of the rest, you still lose money by not renting out everything

But also vacancies just don't seem to account for that much of the housing shortage. We actually just need more houses

[leaden torrent]

vacancy stats are misleading since often they dont account for natural turnover

[velvet dagger]

Yup

[leaden torrent]

like if someone leaves an apartment and it goes on the market for a month itll be marked as "vacant"

but like, obviously its gonna be filled soon

its not unused, just going through a change in occupancy

[vivid quest]

House are also investments, so the money is in the form of houses

They have a kind of exploit there

[barren anchor]

depends on what you want to do ofc

[iron nimbus]

ikr like the minimum wage is so low and they smh expect the customers to pay tips to account for this?!

[leaden torrent]

housing as an investment is a terrible institution though and it really sucks that its so normalized in "the american dream"

[velvet dagger]

Hmm? You make more money off your investment by renting it than by having it sit (responding to Almond not Namington)

If you're living in your home you can't really treat it like an investment since you can't actually capitalize on it without downsizing

[barren anchor]

I don't see what's wrong with wanting to own a house

[leaden torrent]

you can, by moving to a less wealthy region

[barren anchor]

I think for most americans, that represents the majority of their store of value

[leaden torrent]

this isnt the problem, the problem is the expectation that your investment's prices will go up over time

[barren anchor]

I think it's annoying that for the 1%, buying and flipping, or making a "management company" and just exploitatively purchasing housing during crashes is a bit of an issue

[leaden torrent]

in an ideal world, housing would get cheaper over time, like an old TV

[velvet dagger]

Yeah I count that as downsizing. Even if it doesn't lead to a worst QOL, people have this mental stigma toward neighborhoods

[vivid quest]

I think you more than double the price by no renting half the market because housing isn't an offer and demand thing, it's just vital and people are ready to see cost climb to get it

[leaden torrent]

this is how the japan market works for example

[barren anchor]

I think this is the case though

[vivid quest]

So it might be much mire valuable that way

[leaden torrent]

in japan, housing is built to only last for a few decades before being upgraded, and so it has more of a shelf life

[velvet dagger]

Sure but this is quantitative

[barren anchor]

I'm not sure how I would compare a tv and a house

[leaden torrent]

and as a result, its treated as an ownable asset, but not an investment

[barren anchor]

they're definitely different sorts of investments

[vivid quest]

Not sure whatit means

[leaden torrent]

yes but the problem is that it creates perverse incentives

like lets say a politician had a magic button that, when pressed, cut all housing prices in half

would they press it?

you might say "obviously yes, thatd be great for young people"

but young people dont vote

suburban homeowners vote

and if their house's value goes from 800k to 400k, theyre gonna worry about their retirement

so they're going to punish the politician at the ballot box

in other words, "housing as an investment" means that people are incentivized to make housing less affordable

[velvet dagger]

What you say indicates that home prices will go up a fair bit with vacancies but the exact number here is relevant

[barren anchor]

you can make that exact same argument for a lot of things. Investing in, say, a college or a healthcare plan.

[leaden torrent]

those arent resellable assets

[barren anchor]

healthcare plans are resellable. A college is too.

If I'm a billionaire and I buy a college, I can sell it ten years later just fine

[velvet dagger]

If you keep half the rentals off the market and the rents jump by 1.8, sure that jump reflects homes being necessary, but that makes vacancies not profitable

[barren anchor]

might be wrong about the healthcare plans

I'm just not sure I fully appreciate your motivation

[velvet dagger]

What?

[barren anchor]

what's confusing you?

[velvet dagger]

When people talk about investing in college that generally doesn't mean buying the university

[heady pagoda]

Shutting down the real estate market or making it open only to government seems like a funny idea

[leaden torrent]

i really dont see how the argument applies at all?

usually an investment in a college does not actually come with an ownership stake

[solid snow]

also thats not really the case with public universities either

[vivid quest]

If there's less houses than people, people will pay exactly what the richest to be homeless can afford, they will all put the money necessary to ensure it, at least theoretically.

[barren anchor]

what's a university but just a bunch of houses?

[leaden torrent]

but even if it did, the rest of the argument doesnt apply

[barren anchor]

oh well you can see how I meant it, it does mean that

[solid snow]

a board of trustees and state legislation

[barren anchor]

and if it did mean that, I'm not sure how the argument wouldn't apply

[heady pagoda]

did u guys know blackstone inc and co apparently don't make a dent in housing prices

[velvet dagger]

Homes are a day to day thing that average people buy and treat like an investment, so they want the value of their investment to go up.

When people pay for a university education, they do not buy the university. They pay tuition to learn and get a degree

If the cost of university goes up, that does not mean you can go to Amazon and sell your degree for more money

[leaden torrent]

well they probably have a nonzero influence but its almost assuredly very small

[heady pagoda]

yeah like .1%

[leaden torrent]

people like to blame big companies or foreign investors or whatever because it deflects blame

but it wont fix the root issue

population is increasing faster than the housing stock is

as long as that is true, prices will go up

[heady pagoda]

so... two child policy?

[barren anchor]

what is the perverse incentive created by housing as an investment again? I'm not really sure how the magic bullet is relevant

[iron nimbus]

where did you see this

[velvet dagger]

So increasing costs of university education isn't the same phenomenon as increasing home costs. People who own homes actively want the latter to happen, people who get a college education don't want the former

[leaden torrent]

the increase in population comes largely from migration, and specifically internal migration

[heady pagoda]

google

[leaden torrent]

i.e. people from smaller communities moving to cities

[velvet dagger]

Including after they have graduated and are no longer paying tuition

[leaden torrent]

its not due to birthrates or foreign immigration

[heady pagoda]

hmm okay that is harder to tackle

[leaden torrent]

indeed, birthrates in most western countries are below replacement

[barren anchor]

kinda a ramble bro

[vivid quest]

Build more housing

[heady pagoda]

same energy as just buy a house bro

[vivid quest]

No

[solid snow]

people need houses but people who own houses would like to make a profit

[barren anchor]

I'm not responding to you

I was hoping namington might answer my last question

sorry to not literally @

[robust flicker]

Arbitrariness is inevitable—it’s simply a matter of where one navigates next.

[velvet dagger]

Individuals can't do that easily but that is something to work toward as society, and is much more realistic

And that seems to be the answer to the problem

Or part of it

[heady pagoda]

okay so people are immigrating to big cities for better educations and jobs, so what if rural lands were made to have equally good education, or better yet, the uneducated labour wasn't hold in such disdain

[leaden torrent]

people expect to be able to resell their house to afford retirement or whatever
people therefore expect their house price to go up over time, at least in line with a "general investment" (say 5%/yr, like SPY)
these people are disproportionately influential on politics since they're both proportionately wealthy (most homeowners, while not upper class, are richer than renters) and very politically engaged (they actually vote in elections)

therefore, if youre a politician and you want to make housing more affordable, you risk pissing off this politically influential class if you make their houses more affordable as well

[velvet dagger]

Zoning seems to be a barrier toward building more and higher density housing

[leaden torrent]

since then you're making them lose money

[velvet dagger]

Ah all good then

[vivid quest]

Those things are typically centralized, so that's why it happens in big cities

[torpid bay]

according to blackstone, black stone doesn't negatively affect teh market

[leaden torrent]

one thing some politicians have tried is basically making suburban homes into a luxury asset while trying to lower rental prices

this is enforced, for example, through rent controls on apartments

[heady pagoda]

You sure it was blackstone and not another news source

[torpid bay]

https://www.blackstone.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2025/05/Blackstone-Housing-Market-Myth-vs.-Fact.pdf\

im like 2% sure

[leaden torrent]

but this just makes homeownership unobtainable for most people

[torpid bay]

[heady pagoda]

okay I saw that shit somewhere else with none of their grubby hands on it

[barren anchor]

oh yeah I'm familiar with this, due to the political interplay rather than intrinsically

[torpid bay]

"Single-family rentals are not the cause of home price appreciation in recent years. Even prior to the Global
Financial Crisis, there were roughly 12 million single-family homes for rent.(2)

Blackstone owns only 0.06% of the 106 million single-family homes in the US, and institutions own only 0.5% of
all single-family homes in the United States.(3) Institutional owners acquired only 0.3% of the $2 trillion of US
homes sold in 2024, down ~90% since 2022 and at lowest levels since 2012. (4) Therefore, it is virtually impossible
for Blackstone to move the market." according to blackstone

[iron nimbus]

oh goodness

By 2030, institutional investors could control 40% of U.S. single-family homes according to MetLife Investment Management.

[barren anchor]

yeah the process basically pushes housing policies to favor the wealthy anyways.

[torpid bay]

im seeing numbers ~274k homes owned by blackstone on multiple diff sources rn

[iron nimbus]

apparently it seems like there are sources that say it helps, and ones that says it hurts

[heady pagoda]

That would be a dramatic upscale if that figure provided by blackstone is true

[solid snow]

blackrock/stone is atm a bit of a red herring

the issue is systemic like how namington described

[iron nimbus]

indeed, but blackstone is only one of the investors

[solid snow]

but vibez win out

[barren anchor]

I've read some stuff about utilization which has suggested that the housing market would be significantly chilled out if there were just more vacancy taxes

[iron nimbus]

agreed

[barren anchor]

the phenomenon of the top 1% owning 5-10 homes and the top 5% owning 2-3

[leaden torrent]

this is probably true, but assessing vacancy is actually more difficult than youd think

[robust flicker]

I'm the bottom owning none.

[leaden torrent]

you can say "well, just tell people to declare a primary residence, and then tax any additional properties they own"

but then the husband declares House 1 his primary residence, and the wife declares House 2 hers

or whatever

its not an unsolvable problem but its complicated

[heady pagoda]

Greeks somehow invovled drones to address their tax dodging problems

[leaden torrent]

and whenever you have complicated issues regarding the enforcement of legislation, thats prime space for special interest groups to creep their way in and take advantage

[heady pagoda]

Which is deeply funny

[leaden torrent]

if a big company comes out against [obviously good policy], thats a bad PR look

they wont do that

instead, they'll show up to the committee in charge of implementing it, and give "suggestions"

and those "suggestions" just happen to exempt them from most of the consequences

[robust flicker]

Lift the house and attach numerous of wheels -- then it's no longer a "house" or a "home"...nor is it a property onto the land.

[leaden torrent]

and that doesnt even make the papers

[torpid bay]

hm im trying to find actualy vacancy rates, because the 15mil figure seems to actually include homes that are already but but are seconds homes as well

so not really vacant imo

[vivid quest]

A lot of countries use google earth to see if people have pools to be taxed, so in rich neighboorhoods, you see all the houses blank to avoid that

[robust flicker]

Personal property vs Private Property

[heady pagoda]

which drones circumvented apparently

[barren anchor]

I find it actually rather broad-minded and conceptual of the elderly rich to be able to look at, say, a home construction aid program from the government and say "well that's gonna depress the value of my home"

beautiful in a way

[leaden torrent]

well usually they dont think of it like that

instead they might think "this will bring increased traffic and disrupt the neighbourhood character"

[vivid quest]

Politicians say the aim is to decrease prices so they don't have to actually use braincells

[iron nimbus]

wdym? homes that are already what? and second homes?

[barren anchor]

dang that's significantly less beautiful

[leaden torrent]

"i mean, the new building comes with a laundromat! imagine living next to the kind of person who uses a laundromat. I just don't want that in Skyview Springs"

[torpid bay]

"A housing unit is vacant if no one is living in it at the time of the interview, unless its occupants are only temporarily absent. In addition, a vacant unit may be one which is entirely occupied by persons who have a usual residence elsewhere. New units not yet occupied are classified as vacant housing units if construction has reached a point where all exterior windows and doors are installed and final usable floors are in place."

[barren anchor]

but I'd guess more likely

[torpid bay]

according to us census bearau

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/EVACANTUSQ176N

if im reading right

[leaden torrent]

again, this is the kind of group who states that they want more affordable housing in the abstract, but they dont actually want to live next to poor people

[torpid bay]

so if i live in new york, but i have a house in maine, that maine is is listed as vacant

[leaden torrent]

"yes yes, it'd be great to have fewer homeless people. they can all live in one neighbourhood on the opposite side of the city from me"

[vivid quest]

Lmao but also sad

[torpid bay]

i wonder how many of the 16 mil homes are actually second homes or smthn

[leaden torrent]

anyway

am grind demiatma in final fantasy 14

[barren anchor]

ima grind james brown spaceout

[heady pagoda]

They can't be owned by corporations but wealthy people of that caliber can't be too common either

Going purely by vibes it gotta be around 14%

[torpid bay]

a second home is doable for upper middle class, given that you have a nest egg, I know a few people who havve a crappy main house, but a nice ass beach house

I felt bad for a dude once cuz his house was the worst i'd ever seen

until the beach house

[vivid quest]

😭

Bro takes the zombie pill during work periods

[torpid bay]

tho yeah one of the people was lookin to sell off their beach house due to costs so idunno

[vivid quest]

And goes back to normal self for vacations

[velvet dagger]

I mean if you're upper middle, you're incentivized to have your second home and a rental or Airbnb or smth

[vivid quest]

What even is upper middle class

Because

That seems like crazy rich to me

[solid snow]

pretty much

[torpid bay]

generally I would classify it as not having like a mansion, but a pretty big house and/or being able to take trips to italy each year, multiple trips

so uh, not me

most of the ones I know of have old money from prior generations that they're keeping the next egg from

[solid snow]

and that most life expenses will not really be a worry

healthcare, car maintenance, home renovation, etc.

[tidal shoal]

has anyone taken AP seminar and if so can you tell me about the course description and how it was for you

[rich horizon]

I’m Larry

[steady cedar]

hi Larry

[rich horizon]

hi, sly fox ✨

[fresh comet]

@steady cedar welcome to the mathcord!

[molten raptor]

Konnichiwa

[tidal shoal]

[vital niche]

:((

discussy dry asl

[gusty bough]

buh

https://tenor.com/view/cat-gif-496001393010401237

hm

[vital niche]

embed fail ahhahah

[gusty bough]

smh

hows it going

[vital niche]

good

just lowk bored

supposed to be doing physics

wbu

[gusty bough]

i'm doing good as well, i just finished eating lunch, watching youtube but downstairs to keep an eye on my puppy

he usually holds plenty of energy but with the heat he's resting a lot

[twin flicker]

what time zone

not even 12 for em lol

[gusty bough]

It’s 4pm now, CEST time zone

[twin flicker]

oh

[gusty bough]

Central Europe Summer Time

[twin flicker]

idk what im eating for lunch today

prob just chicken and potato

[gusty bough]

W