#book-recommendations | Mathematics | Page 205

sage python Oct 17, 2020, 9:26 PM

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And then a zero is a pole of the reciprocal

sudden kindle Oct 17, 2020, 9:27 PM

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He like proves some weird inequality and said the exponents can only be integers or something like that

sage python Oct 17, 2020, 9:27 PM

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Weird, I have to continue grading but lemme see

sudden kindle Oct 17, 2020, 9:30 PM

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Pg 128 starting from "For a more detailed discussion of isolated singularities, we consider [three cases]..."

sage python Oct 17, 2020, 9:31 PM

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Holy fuck this whole page is like

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The way I wrote in undergrad lol

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Block paragraphs

sudden kindle Oct 17, 2020, 9:31 PM

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Exactly

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I cant fkin read it

sage python Oct 17, 2020, 9:31 PM

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📎 jeez.png

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Ah yeah this is kinda strange

sudden kindle Oct 17, 2020, 9:33 PM

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Most of the book is like this

marble solar Oct 17, 2020, 10:26 PM

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I love it

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I wrote my proofs like that

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In grad complex, prof. liked it

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I tried it in Algebra and prof did not like it

marble rock Oct 17, 2020, 11:32 PM

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i am still asking

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for a hardcore textbook

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that is advanced and is very spicy

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something that will make me improve

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it can be in any topic really but i really like group theory

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and/or algebra in general

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merciless textbook

gray gazelle Oct 17, 2020, 11:36 PM

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Idk, u could read Lang's algebra book

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The higher infinite catThink

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Ralf schindler set theory

soft terrace Oct 17, 2020, 11:37 PM

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anyone know a good pdf on applying fourier analysis to sound?

gray gazelle Oct 17, 2020, 11:37 PM

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Those two are very hard, have fun

marble solar Oct 17, 2020, 11:37 PM

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@marble rock Stein Harmonic Analysis: Real Variable methods

marble rock Oct 17, 2020, 11:38 PM

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what is harmonic analysis

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does this even suit my background

marble solar Oct 17, 2020, 11:38 PM

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Analysis of harmonic functions

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Well you wanted something spicy and very difficult

marble rock Oct 17, 2020, 11:38 PM

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i read (pugh uptill single var , dummit uptill field theory , hoffman kunze and some topology from munkres but im super bad )

marble solar Oct 17, 2020, 11:38 PM

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🤷

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Oh ok, you read up to Pugh

soft terrace Oct 17, 2020, 11:38 PM

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do differential geometry

marble solar Oct 17, 2020, 11:38 PM

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Spivak Comprehensive Intro to Diff. Geometry

gray gazelle Oct 17, 2020, 11:39 PM

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👀

marble solar Oct 17, 2020, 11:39 PM

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I thought You wanted something spicy

gray gazelle Oct 17, 2020, 11:39 PM

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how is spivak spicy

soft terrace Oct 17, 2020, 11:39 PM

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that is spicy

marble rock Oct 17, 2020, 11:39 PM

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i just want to improve

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at this shitty subject

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( math )

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like mega improve

gray gazelle Oct 17, 2020, 11:39 PM

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(genuinely asking what makes spivak spicy, i don't know)

soft terrace Oct 17, 2020, 11:39 PM

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differential geometry will improve u 😄

marble rock Oct 17, 2020, 11:39 PM

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every1 comments that i do textbooks

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very fast

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and i do not take my time

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and i understand that its because

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i wanna jump into the cooler stuff

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not be boggled odwn with basic shit

gray gazelle Oct 17, 2020, 11:39 PM

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@gray gazelle you see the word spivak is very close to the word spicy

marble rock Oct 17, 2020, 11:39 PM

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but meh

gray gazelle Oct 17, 2020, 11:39 PM

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hmmm

marble solar Oct 17, 2020, 11:40 PM

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You can read Dirichlet's papers on arithmetic progression

gray gazelle Oct 17, 2020, 11:40 PM

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spicy spivak

marble solar Oct 17, 2020, 11:40 PM

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Go back and read the master's, it's not too difficult

marble rock Oct 17, 2020, 11:40 PM

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i want exercises

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thats the most important

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part forr me

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doing exercises

marble solar Oct 17, 2020, 11:40 PM

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Spivak Comprehensive Introduction

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Hundreds

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of exercises

marble rock Oct 17, 2020, 11:40 PM

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hard ones

marble solar Oct 17, 2020, 11:40 PM

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Super good

marble rock Oct 17, 2020, 11:40 PM

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that will teach me

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how to solve shit

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wtf

marble solar Oct 17, 2020, 11:41 PM

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There's also the Stein and Shakarchi analysis sequence

marble rock Oct 17, 2020, 11:41 PM

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this doesnt look hard

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📎 51EKdH8E46L.png

marble solar Oct 17, 2020, 11:41 PM

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volumes 1-4

marble rock Oct 17, 2020, 11:41 PM

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hahahaa

marble solar Oct 17, 2020, 11:41 PM

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That's a beautiful cover man

gray gazelle Oct 17, 2020, 11:41 PM

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These fuckers will be haunting you in your dreams

marble rock Oct 17, 2020, 11:41 PM

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if i were to choose

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i wooudl choose

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more algebra

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or maybe learn some NT

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i never leant NT

gray gazelle Oct 17, 2020, 11:41 PM

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more algebra

marble rock Oct 17, 2020, 11:41 PM

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learnt

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is differential geometry fun?

gray gazelle Oct 17, 2020, 11:42 PM

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yes

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You could read ireland rosen

marble rock Oct 17, 2020, 11:42 PM

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do i need topology

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for spivak introduction

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idk topology other than the

gray gazelle Oct 17, 2020, 11:42 PM

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I find that analytic number theory is more fun though

marble rock Oct 17, 2020, 11:42 PM

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ANALYSIS topology

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and im not that even good

marble solar Oct 17, 2020, 11:43 PM

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Hrmm

gray gazelle Oct 17, 2020, 11:43 PM

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You asked for the hardest books we know sully

marble rock Oct 17, 2020, 11:43 PM

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nvm

marble solar Oct 17, 2020, 11:43 PM

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Hardest book I know is probably Schulten's 3 manifold Topology, but that one is just

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Too crazy

marble rock Oct 17, 2020, 11:44 PM

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yea i want to improve

long bear Oct 17, 2020, 11:44 PM

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why do you want

marble rock Oct 17, 2020, 11:44 PM

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not just be spanked

hollow peak Oct 17, 2020, 11:44 PM

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do grandpa rudin 😎

long bear Oct 17, 2020, 11:44 PM

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hard and spicy

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why not, succinct and clear

marble rock Oct 17, 2020, 11:44 PM

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i want to improve with solving problems and doiung math

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@long bear

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and i just like being fucked

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in general

long bear Oct 17, 2020, 11:44 PM

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this is like

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doing dark souls 3

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soul level 1

marble rock Oct 17, 2020, 11:45 PM

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yea

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ds3 is amazing

long bear Oct 17, 2020, 11:45 PM

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yes

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but have you done sl1?

gray gazelle Oct 17, 2020, 11:45 PM

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Aside from analysis, books on combinatorical optimisation should be quite difficult

soft terrace Oct 17, 2020, 11:46 PM

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that sound spicy

marble rock Oct 17, 2020, 11:46 PM

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i am skimming

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comprhenesive introduction

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this shit looks fun

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how much diff geo

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is this

sage python Oct 17, 2020, 11:51 PM

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mo2men okay spicy group theory book

marble solar Oct 17, 2020, 11:52 PM

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Rotman?

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@marble rock the first volume is just the beginnings

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The second one is where it gets pretty hardcore

sage python Oct 17, 2020, 11:52 PM

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I was gonna joke Fulton and Harris lmao

marble solar Oct 17, 2020, 11:53 PM

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The last 3 volumes are like "Ok, this is your field of research and you need a reference set with depth"

marble rock Oct 17, 2020, 11:54 PM

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okay

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i am finishing up with pugh

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then im going to ride either this

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the differential geometry shit or anaything else

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but i see alot of diagrams

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and i dont know about those

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@marble solar

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in spivak

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what are the formal prereqs for that text

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i dealt with some diagrams b4 but like i dont know actual language like functor or exact functo

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i just learnt about exact sequences from modules

slender dragon Oct 18, 2020, 12:08 AM

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I hear Rudin's books are good for reviewing. Terrible for starters.
@crystal kraken

Rudin is bad for everything

marble solar Oct 18, 2020, 12:09 AM

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I think passing familiarity with topology

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And analysis are the only two pre-reqs

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Calculus on Manifolds by Spivak is good to have on hand, since it often references results from that

quick hornet Oct 18, 2020, 12:10 AM

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strong disagree, rudin is fantastic as a reference text

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not sure exactly what "reviewing" means, if you mean as something to do practice out of, then yeh it has good problems

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(though if you need something more computational, say for the mGRE, it wont help as much there)

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if you mean as a reference, i think rudin is basically unparalleled

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at least among texts originally written in english

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theres probably some random ass german text thats also good at that

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[im referring to both baby and papa, i cant really speak on grandpa]

gray gazelle Oct 18, 2020, 12:13 AM

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~~there are indeed some random ass german texts~~

sleek python Oct 18, 2020, 12:14 AM

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~~forgetting the random ass french texts I see~~

slender dragon Oct 18, 2020, 12:18 AM

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strong disagree, rudin is fantastic as a reference text
@quick hornet

I'm talking about Baby Rudin, why do you say is good for reference?

quick hornet Oct 18, 2020, 12:20 AM

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very clean, slick proofs; contains basically every result you could need and generally doesnt "hide" the important stuff in exercises as much as some other texts

slender dragon Oct 18, 2020, 12:26 AM

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I mean, Baby Rudin is one of the most advanced textbooks in basic Mathematical Analysis that I saw. But, after that, I think it doesn't have so much, Apostol have more in Riemann-Stieltjes Integral and a lot of more content I think. Besides that, if you want Rudin for the Metric Space part (Chapter 2, 4 and 7, I think) why don't use a Metric Space book? It have interesting excersies though

dense wren Oct 18, 2020, 12:45 AM

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@crystal kraken

Rudin is bad for everything
@slender dragon I think rudin is great for a second pass of basic analysis, particularly the exercises

gray gazelle Oct 18, 2020, 12:45 AM

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i dont get why u have to include rieman stiljes in a first course in analysis

slender dragon Oct 18, 2020, 12:48 AM

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Why a second pass? That's my problem, just read a good textbook and continue with other courses.

A good book as a first pass and after is Dummit and Foote

dense wren Oct 18, 2020, 12:48 AM

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Maybe a better way to say it is review if you haven’t taken your basic analysis course in a while and you’re about to take a grad course

slender dragon Oct 18, 2020, 12:50 AM

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Mmm, well, it's not so big anyways

frigid comet Oct 18, 2020, 1:19 AM

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I think big rudin is good as a ref, and baby rudin is imo the best book out there for a first course in analysis. Played a huge role in me developing a love for the subject.

slender sphinx Oct 18, 2020, 1:21 AM

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What makes a book a good reference? Why it over the internet?

frigid comet Oct 18, 2020, 1:24 AM

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A good ref covers a lot, and is succinct. Quick when you need to recall things you learned some time ago but have a hazy recollection of.

gray gazelle Oct 18, 2020, 1:31 AM

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i liked rudin too

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hard, but in a good way

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Does anyone know a great introductory geometry book from the point of view of competition math ?

wooden sparrow Oct 18, 2020, 1:35 AM

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Anyone have Spivak's calculus PDF with them? zlibrary is asking me to use tor browser for that

gray gazelle Oct 18, 2020, 1:35 AM

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Use libgen

frigid comet Oct 18, 2020, 1:35 AM

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Maybe Evan Chen’s book @gray gazelle ?

wooden sparrow Oct 18, 2020, 1:35 AM

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can't find pdf on libgen

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wait, nevermind, found it

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thanks

gray gazelle Oct 18, 2020, 1:37 AM

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Euclidean Geometry in Mathematical Olympiads ?

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@frigid comet

frigid comet Oct 18, 2020, 1:37 AM

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Yep

gray gazelle Oct 18, 2020, 1:38 AM

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But the description doesn't look very encouraging : This is a challenging problem-solving book in Euclidean geometry, assuming nothing of the reader other than a good deal of courage

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Anyways thanks for help :)

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I would see what it has...

frigid comet Oct 18, 2020, 1:39 AM

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It didn’t look like a problem book to me, there is a lot of theory in it, starting from the very basics.

slender sphinx Oct 18, 2020, 1:39 AM

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EGMO is good

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I read most of it

frigid comet Oct 18, 2020, 1:39 AM

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Of course, there are some quite hard problems in it too.

wooden sparrow Oct 18, 2020, 1:39 AM

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is spivak's calculus only introductory?

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single variable?

frigid comet Oct 18, 2020, 1:39 AM

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Yeah it’s single variable done rigorously.

wooden sparrow Oct 18, 2020, 1:39 AM

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nice

granite sluice Oct 18, 2020, 1:41 AM

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someone should write a collection of bots that handle all Rudin related questions

frigid comet Oct 18, 2020, 1:42 AM

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Lol

tribal kernel Oct 18, 2020, 4:00 AM

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Okay one thing I don't like about Aluffi is the treatment of nilpotent groups

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They're introduced in the exercises and then there's a large chunk of exercises and content following that relies on those ideas

marble solar Oct 18, 2020, 4:36 AM

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There are things that I really like on the surface of Papa Rudin

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but when I get into the details it just seems absurd

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Like the treatment of Real & Complex Analysis as two halves to a coin

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Is really neat, but the tools that's developed doesn't really help you do the problems or understand the conceptual motivation behind the definitions/techniques

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Which is usually filled in by a great mathematics educator

hasty turret Oct 18, 2020, 4:39 AM

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So,It's not self contained?

gray gazelle Oct 18, 2020, 4:41 AM

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Here's a challenge for y'all

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📎 aads_ghgvgutv.png

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What book is it?????

tribal kernel Oct 18, 2020, 4:44 AM

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Lol that’s my high school calculus book

slender sphinx Oct 18, 2020, 4:44 AM

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📎 Screenshot_20201018_004446.jpg

broken meadow Oct 18, 2020, 4:45 AM

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ron larson GWpieHyperS

slender sphinx Oct 18, 2020, 4:45 AM

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Actually, the 4th result down searching for calculus textbook

gray gazelle Oct 18, 2020, 4:46 AM

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😭

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One of my classmate has been collecting screenshots of all of the people in my class (but especially me) and she's now making satirical comics with them.

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The calc book pic is one of those screenshots lmao.

gray gazelle Oct 18, 2020, 5:04 AM

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also Ron Larson's LinAlg ain't bad

crystal kraken Oct 18, 2020, 6:04 AM

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@crystal kraken

Rudin is bad for everything
@slender dragon lmao. Ig i will be going for Marsden and Hoffman or Tao as my first book for analysis.

slender dragon Oct 18, 2020, 6:18 AM

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I think big rudin is good as a ref, and baby rudin is imo the best book out there for a first course in analysis. Played a huge role in me developing a love for the subject.
@frigid comet

Are you an analyst?

marble solar Oct 18, 2020, 6:18 AM

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The only answer to that question is yes

slender dragon Oct 18, 2020, 6:18 AM

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Well

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Some people love it and become Analyst

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Some people hate it and become...

marble solar Oct 18, 2020, 6:19 AM

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some people love Rudin and become?

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And algebraist

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lol

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an**

slender dragon Oct 18, 2020, 6:20 AM

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I used Rudin in my first Course in Analysis

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I hate Rudin, but, I learn a lot from it, but sometimes I read other books too

crystal kraken Oct 18, 2020, 6:48 AM

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Like..?

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And wb pugh?

fast light Oct 18, 2020, 7:19 AM

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Best comprehensive book for analysis

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Intro

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\setminus rudin

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Pls

runic hatch Oct 18, 2020, 7:27 AM

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i myself used apostol's analysis

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tao also seems nice

sage python Oct 18, 2020, 7:27 AM

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Based on the contents, to say nothing of the writing, I think the best alternative to Rudin is Kriz and Pultr

slender dragon Oct 18, 2020, 7:31 AM

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Like..?
@crystal kraken

Tom Apostol Mathematical Analysis

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Understanding Analysis of Stephen Abbott

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Steps Into Analysis it's so good. It's an inquiry base Learning book

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As Oxford page says "A DIY course in Analysis"

crystal kraken Oct 18, 2020, 7:52 AM

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Steps Into Analysis it's so good. It's an inquiry base Learning book
This sounds pretty interesting.

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And now i am super confused. Idk which book to pick now

marble solar Oct 18, 2020, 7:53 AM

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I don't think which book you pick really matters too much

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Just pick one, see how it goes

runic hatch Oct 18, 2020, 8:06 AM

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yeah honestly at some point you should just go with at least one

crystal kraken Oct 18, 2020, 8:07 AM

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As Oxford page says "A DIY course in Analysis"
We're talking about 'Understanding Analysis of Stephen Abbott', right?

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yeah honestly at some point you should just go with at least one
It's just that i don't want to pick a book that i won't like and eventually lose all my interest for analysis

gray gazelle Oct 18, 2020, 8:26 AM

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Tao's?

crystal kraken Oct 18, 2020, 8:30 AM

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I hear it's a good book but it keeps you at a slow pace. Idk what to do🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

karmic thorn Oct 18, 2020, 8:31 AM

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Just pick one, see how it goes

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@crystal kraken

crystal kraken Oct 18, 2020, 8:33 AM

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@karmic thorn

It's just that i don't want to pick a book that i won't like and eventually lose all my interest for analysis

hasty turret Oct 18, 2020, 8:33 AM

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Then,get another one

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You wouldn't know,if you didn't try

crystal kraken Oct 18, 2020, 8:34 AM

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Ig you're right. So first off, i am buying baby rudin or Stephen Abbott

hasty turret Oct 18, 2020, 8:35 AM

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Try libgening it and check if you like it first

crystal kraken Oct 18, 2020, 8:40 AM

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👍

karmic thorn Oct 18, 2020, 10:39 AM

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https://www.d.umn.edu/~jgallian/Proofs.html
A good reading for those starting with writing proofs.

crystal kraken Oct 18, 2020, 12:37 PM

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We're talking about 'Understanding Analysis of Stephen Abbott', right?
@slender dragon

hollow current Oct 18, 2020, 12:37 PM

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zorich's mathematical analysis is superior

crystal kraken Oct 18, 2020, 12:39 PM

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for beginners?

hollow current Oct 18, 2020, 12:40 PM

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well depends on how you understand "beginner"

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i mean exercises are far not trivial ones, but he provides solid foundation

crystal kraken Oct 18, 2020, 12:42 PM

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What are your views on Rudin, Tao, Pugh and Marsden and Hoffman?

hollow current Oct 18, 2020, 12:43 PM

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i do not like rudin much

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about others cannot say anything

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also, bernst schroders mathematical analysis is nice

runic hatch Oct 18, 2020, 12:44 PM

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you could also try getting pdfs of all of the texts you want to look at and go through them

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see which style you like the best

crystal kraken Oct 18, 2020, 12:45 PM

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Mathematical Analysis by Vladimir A. Zorich, right?

hollow current Oct 18, 2020, 12:45 PM

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another nice book is fundamentals of mathematical analysis by fikhtengolts
style is pretty old but it is more calclulus-like

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ye

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also, bernst schroders mathematical analysis is nice
@hollow current mathematical analysis: a concise introduction

crystal kraken Oct 18, 2020, 12:46 PM

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see which style you like the best
@runic hatch that is what i am thinking of doing now.

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Okayy. Thanks commander, i'll look into them.

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Also, Is burton ok for NT?

hollow current Oct 18, 2020, 12:48 PM

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idk any of number theory, but many recommend rosen (ireland)

crystal kraken Oct 18, 2020, 12:49 PM

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Hmm. Aight, thanks.

slender dragon Oct 18, 2020, 7:42 PM

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We're talking about 'Understanding Analysis of Stephen Abbott', right?
@crystal kraken

No, Steps into Analysis of R.P. Burn

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Steps into Analysis is a amazing book to learn, and then you can go more deeper with other book

crystal kraken Oct 18, 2020, 8:02 PM

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Google shows the book 'Numbers and Functions'. This is the one, right?

slender dragon Oct 18, 2020, 8:04 PM

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Yes

crystal kraken Oct 18, 2020, 8:09 PM

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Kk. Thanks

gray gazelle Oct 18, 2020, 8:39 PM

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I do not find the answer of the exercise 2 of the section 1.1 here https://www.people.vcu.edu/~rhammack/BookOfProof/Main.pdf#page=304 does it exists?

broken meadow Oct 18, 2020, 8:41 PM

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hammack only does the odd numbered ones

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you have to come up with your own solution and know that it's correct

timber mesa Oct 19, 2020, 1:07 AM

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hammack only does the odd numbered ones
yeah, if you have any question about the book you could ask in #proofs-and-logic or the question channels.

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 1:07 AM

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i think there was a website i came across that has like solved problems for most standard math books

timber mesa Oct 19, 2020, 1:08 AM

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here the answer should be something like ${\hdots,-3,-1,2,5,8,\hdots}$

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 1:08 AM

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rudin, d&f, ...

hasty eagleBOT Oct 19, 2020, 1:08 AM

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bastian.uwu:

📎 700814540626984980.png

timber mesa Oct 19, 2020, 1:08 AM

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i think there was a website i came across that has like solved problems for most standard math books
yeah it probably steals solution manuals done by instructors and students lmao

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many people do that, ~~I do but never finish them~~

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here the answer should be something like {\hdots,-3,-1,2,5,8,\hdots}
@gray gazelle

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 1:10 AM

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maybe, i think anyone could submit solutions (not sure how they checked that submitted solutions are actualy correct)

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https://www.slader.com/textbook/9780471433347-abstract-algebra-third-edition/

Slader

Slader :: Homework Answers and Solutions

Tomorrow's answer's today! Find correct step-by-step solutions for ALL your homework for FREE!

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just make your own solution manual and sell it for a ridiculous price

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then they can't steal

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i like the idea of having free solutions on the internet

sudden granite Oct 19, 2020, 1:25 AM

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yeah slader is useful... but often misused

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users can leave ratings on answers

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to decide whether its a high quality submission

hollow current Oct 19, 2020, 2:52 AM

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just make your own solution manual and sell it for a ridiculous price
@gray gazelle i will do so with zorich

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😄

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 3:46 AM

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me with pedersen ig

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it wouldn't even be a solution manual

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just like

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some random exercises here and there

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good question

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i'm not sure

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none of the exercises i've chosen to do have been particularly difficult

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there could be some hard ones hiding in the ones i don't try writing full solutions for

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im going to start reading 3.2 and try to get an exercise or two done tonight

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i plan to speed up a bit

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like i feel like i should be around chapter 4 at this point

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last 3 chapters?

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ultra giving me a problem set here monkaS

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what happens if i don't submit them on time

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monkagiga

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ah but you never said they had to be correct solutions

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hmmm

long bear Oct 19, 2020, 4:55 AM

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Do you guys

broken meadow Oct 19, 2020, 4:55 AM

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yes

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.

long bear Oct 19, 2020, 4:55 AM

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ok

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.

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do you guys go to the same institution or something

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 4:56 AM

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i'm taking a class that ultraproduct took some time ago

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same prof

long bear Oct 19, 2020, 4:57 AM

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ah

nimble sable Oct 19, 2020, 5:42 AM

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is terry tao's book on measure theory any good?

frigid comet Oct 19, 2020, 5:43 AM

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it's decent yeah

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some good problems in it

nimble sable Oct 19, 2020, 5:43 AM

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why is it decent and not amazing?

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i need to know if its worth investing in

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that ish is expensive

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 5:45 AM

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Would you steal from Terry Tao?

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that ish is expensive
@nimble sable

📎 Graduate_Studies_in_Mathematics_126_Terence_Tao_-_An_Introduction_to_Measure_Theory_2011_American_Ma.pdf

nimble sable Oct 19, 2020, 5:48 AM

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well that certainly solves things

quick hornet Oct 19, 2020, 5:48 AM

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why is 90% of the book Chapter 1

nimble sable Oct 19, 2020, 5:49 AM

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the second section is for extra bits like problem solving strategies

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but I wanted to know if it was worth purchasing for a reference library

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i guess that solves things

frigid comet Oct 19, 2020, 5:52 AM

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idk, I probably wouldn't call any "measure theory" book amazing, there aren't many out there

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but the material is contained in many more general real analysis texts, idk that I really have a favourite when it comes to presentation of the measure theory content.

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 11:22 AM

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@hollow current

@gray gazelle i will do so with zorich

if you want to share solutions, I am with you. I have skills with git.

hollow current Oct 19, 2020, 11:24 AM

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@gray gazelle lmao, if it will happen certainly not this year

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i have solved at best 10% of zorich

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 11:25 AM

#

I can focus on the technical part to publish it on git as I told. I just need people to be sure that my answer are corrects.

hollow current Oct 19, 2020, 11:25 AM

#

(but it has already taken 20 pages of proofs kek)

#

well we will see

#

prolly i will indeed someday publish it

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 11:26 AM

#

@hollow current publish what ? about proof and logic?

hollow current Oct 19, 2020, 11:26 AM

#

I can focus on the technical part to publish it on git as I told. I just need people to be sure that my answer are corrects.
@gray gazelle if one goes to look at others' solutions one does it on ones own risk

#

@hollow current publish what ? about proof and logic?
@gray gazelle all the solutions to zorich exercises that i managed to do

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 11:27 AM

#

zorich ? what is it?

hollow current Oct 19, 2020, 11:27 AM

#

mathematical analysis textbook

#

he is author

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 11:27 AM

#

ok

#

no

#

me I want for book and proof and how to prove it.

hollow current Oct 19, 2020, 11:28 AM

#

did not do it

#

aybe someday

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 11:28 AM

#

if you do so, then I will help you

hollow current Oct 19, 2020, 11:29 AM

#

sure we will see

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 11:30 AM

#

cool

dim monolith Oct 19, 2020, 2:00 PM

#

read percy jackson

#

it good book

#

monkaS

sleek python Oct 19, 2020, 7:33 PM

#

Learn french and read Le Gall's amazing lecture notes on measure theory GWvictoriaBolb

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 7:34 PM

#

@sleek python C'est bon j'ai appris le français je fais quoi avec la théorie des mesures maintenant?

sleek python Oct 19, 2020, 7:34 PM

#

(not for you, for the measure theory rec above )

#

oh shit

#

Well for you then

#

GWcorbinMonkaGIGA

marble solar Oct 19, 2020, 7:35 PM

#

Is Le Gall's that good?

sleek python Oct 19, 2020, 7:35 PM

#

yeah

marble solar Oct 19, 2020, 7:35 PM

#

I can read french, but I don't know any good french math books to read

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 7:35 PM

#

C'est tout? C'est un peu dommage comme même... J'ai passé 5 ans à apprendre le français.

sleek python Oct 19, 2020, 7:35 PM

#

Probably best intro to measure theory around (in french)

#

Je pensais que t'avais appris en 5 secondes

#

sully

marble solar Oct 19, 2020, 7:36 PM

#

I spent a summer in France before I got good enough at math to identify good math books

#

I was gonna go again this summer but then covid hit

sleek python Oct 19, 2020, 7:36 PM

#

If you want some french recs hit me up GWvictoriaBolb

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 7:36 PM

#

@sleek python Do you have a linl to the book?

sleek python Oct 19, 2020, 7:36 PM

#

linl?

marble solar Oct 19, 2020, 7:37 PM

#

link

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 7:37 PM

#

please

sleek python Oct 19, 2020, 7:37 PM

#

https://www.imo.universite-paris-saclay.fr/~jflegall/IPPA2.pdf

#

It's a pdf not a book

#

GWvictoriaBolb

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 7:37 PM

#

thank you

#

So pdfs are not books hyperthonk

tawdry flicker Oct 19, 2020, 8:22 PM

#

how's gilbert strang's book on linalg

marble solar Oct 19, 2020, 8:27 PM

#

It's good

tawdry flicker Oct 19, 2020, 8:28 PM

#

for someone who just wants to get in the topic and wants to do it rigorously?

sage python Oct 19, 2020, 8:31 PM

#

My impression of Strang is that it's eh for rigor

karmic thorn Oct 19, 2020, 8:33 PM

#

Can a beginner to linear algebra(who has basic familiarity with matrices/determinants) use an abstract linear algebra textbook(the ones which start with vector spaces and then move to matrices, etc.) for a first reading?

sage python Oct 19, 2020, 8:33 PM

#

Honestly I think even if you don't know what a matrix is, maybe as long as you know what a proof is or smth, you can start off with a more abstract book

tawdry flicker Oct 19, 2020, 8:34 PM

#

i study physics in my own time so yes ive done some matrices but the physicist way

#

kinda wanted to do it the mathematician way

stray veldt Oct 19, 2020, 8:34 PM

#

i knew what a vector space is before i knew what a matrix is

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 8:35 PM

#

Same

stray veldt Oct 19, 2020, 8:35 PM

#

matrices are not part of the highschool curriculum here

karmic thorn Oct 19, 2020, 8:35 PM

#

I was taught basics of matrices and determinants at school.

stray veldt Oct 19, 2020, 8:35 PM

#

linear algebra is a first semester class

karmic thorn Oct 19, 2020, 8:35 PM

#

And some vector algebra as well.

stray veldt Oct 19, 2020, 8:35 PM

#

or maybe i missed matrices in school

#

i remember vectors

#

and the vector product

#

*cross product

#

and dot product i guess

#

but no matrices

karmic thorn Oct 19, 2020, 8:36 PM

#

Yeah, the standard introductory stuff, 3D geometry as well.

stray veldt Oct 19, 2020, 8:36 PM

#

and my first week of linear algebra introduced groups, rings and vector spaces

#

or the first 2 weeks

karmic thorn Oct 19, 2020, 8:36 PM

#

So maybe I should buy a physical copy of such an abstract kind of text. I'm starting to get a hang of proofs so I should be fine I guess.

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 8:36 PM

#

Were you at the same uni hyperthonk

stray veldt Oct 19, 2020, 8:36 PM

#

i think we even did linear function before we did matrices

#

i think this is standard tbh

tawdry flicker Oct 19, 2020, 8:36 PM

#

our school representing matrices is like "ok this is matrix and this is determinant but im not gonna tell you whatever the absolute fuck each of them are they're just defined as this lmao"

#

basically

stray veldt Oct 19, 2020, 8:37 PM

#

matrices are linear functions, determinants are magic

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 8:37 PM

#

We did ZFC the first weeks though

stray veldt Oct 19, 2020, 8:37 PM

#

you're welcome

tawdry flicker Oct 19, 2020, 8:37 PM

#

HAHAHA

stray veldt Oct 19, 2020, 8:37 PM

#

we did ZFC in analysis

karmic thorn Oct 19, 2020, 8:37 PM

#

That's school maths for you. I'm still not sure what the determinant is supposed to be.

stray veldt Oct 19, 2020, 8:37 PM

#

yes, same

tawdry flicker Oct 19, 2020, 8:37 PM

#

determinant just... works

stray veldt Oct 19, 2020, 8:37 PM

#

i was not joking when i said it's magic

#

it's a highly sophisticated tool

karmic thorn Oct 19, 2020, 8:38 PM

#

The introduction is "okay, this is how you calculate it for this 2x2 matrix..."

#

It has some geometric interpretation though, right?

#

Something about volumes of parallelopipes as far as I recall

stray veldt Oct 19, 2020, 8:38 PM

#

ye, but

#

🤷

#

let's see how nlab defines determinants

tawdry flicker Oct 19, 2020, 8:39 PM

#

my school didnt even teach us how to do linear equations with matrices
basically all of their problems were like "find m and n"

📎 unknown.png

stray veldt Oct 19, 2020, 8:39 PM

#

The determinant is the (essentially unique) universal alternating multilinear map.

#

this is the standard in introduction linear algebra

#

the nlab definition is actually good

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 8:39 PM

#

Oh in high school we didn't do shit

karmic thorn Oct 19, 2020, 8:40 PM

#

That definition needs more motivation than "here's the formula..."

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 8:40 PM

#

Motivation is for weaklings

stray veldt Oct 19, 2020, 8:40 PM

#

for determinant i agree

karmic thorn Oct 19, 2020, 8:40 PM

#

I am a weakling.

#

Other than that I don't have to study much about fields beforehand right?

stray veldt Oct 19, 2020, 8:41 PM

#

the best definition is via exterior algebras

#

but that requires a lot more machinery than you can teach in an intro linear algebra class

#

maybe at the very end

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 8:41 PM

#

Well definitely not field theory

karmic thorn Oct 19, 2020, 8:41 PM

#

Since the book I'm looking forward to starts with vector spaces on general fields, I don't know anything besides the axioms.

stray veldt Oct 19, 2020, 8:41 PM

#

you need to know what a field is

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 8:41 PM

#

Doing some elementary stuff with fields should suffice

stray veldt Oct 19, 2020, 8:41 PM

#

but for most of linear algebra you can substitute field with R

#

(and maybe C if you are brave)

karmic thorn Oct 19, 2020, 8:42 PM

#

Yeah, that's what the preface suggested too.

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 8:42 PM

#

Like looking at some finite fields and then some other fields like R and C

#

Rings would also be useful for example for smith normal forms

#

Not sure if those are covered in that book

karmic thorn Oct 19, 2020, 8:42 PM

#

So some abstract algebra before linear algebra?

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 8:43 PM

#

Yes a little can't hurt

stray veldt Oct 19, 2020, 8:43 PM

#

to me linear algebra is the intro class that introduces some algebra

karmic thorn Oct 19, 2020, 8:44 PM

#

Linear algebra seems indispensable for so many different subjects that I feel obliged to study it first now.

stray veldt Oct 19, 2020, 8:46 PM

#

i mean there is a reason its an intro class

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 8:46 PM

#

Yes it should be in repertoire of every mathematician.

karmic thorn Oct 19, 2020, 8:50 PM

#

I ignored it and jumped straight into group theory, but now I feel it'll be good to know linear algebra from the onset. Thanks for the suggestions!

stray veldt Oct 19, 2020, 8:50 PM

#

it provides good examples of groups

quick hornet Oct 19, 2020, 8:50 PM

#

you can either embrace or ignore linear algebra in a lot of group theory curricula

#

it not only provides good examples but

stray veldt Oct 19, 2020, 8:51 PM

#

artin is a nice book

#

it does both at the same time

quick hornet Oct 19, 2020, 8:51 PM

#

looking at groups as vector spaces over whatever

#

is often handy

stray veldt Oct 19, 2020, 8:51 PM

#

i think it assumes that you know what matrices are

quick hornet Oct 19, 2020, 8:51 PM

#

in letting you reason about e.g.

#

their automorphisms

#

or whatever

stray veldt Oct 19, 2020, 8:51 PM

#

also linear algebra is a nice class to teach

#

you can do so much stuff in it

quick hornet Oct 19, 2020, 8:52 PM

#

basically looking at groups from the perspective of vector spaces often lets you "discover" a lot of "structure"

#

that is hard to reason about otherwise

sage python Oct 19, 2020, 8:52 PM

#

I do think group theory should be pretty linear algebraic

quick hornet Oct 19, 2020, 8:53 PM

#

my first group theory midterm had a really nasty problem where you had to go through an entire tangent with showing that a certain group basically acts as a vector space over Z/nZ for some n

#

and this lets you demonstrate a lot of shit about its automorphism structure

#

in theory you could justify that purely group theoretically but

#

it seems like a pain in the ass

#

yeah if its finitely generated sure

#

but a lot of groups are infinite 😦

karmic thorn Oct 19, 2020, 8:53 PM

#

The book I'm using(Gallian) assumes almost no knowledge of linear algebra, and the only two examples used so far(the general linear group and special linear group) were easy to grasp.

quick hornet Oct 19, 2020, 8:53 PM

#

(and not f.g.)

#

also this problem was worth like

#

half the midterm lmao

#

but you got part marks for every little step since it was so long

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 8:54 PM

#

what was the problem?

quick hornet Oct 19, 2020, 8:55 PM

#

it was some isomorphism relation between groups where all nontrivial elements are of order p for some prime

#

and some automorphism structure on a related multiplicative group U(n)

#

i forget the exact details of the relation

gray gazelle Oct 19, 2020, 8:55 PM

#

bruh

quick hornet Oct 19, 2020, 8:56 PM

#

but we had to characterize the p, n for which it held (and prove it ofc)

#

and ofc if youre reading that you probably instantly jump to like

#

considering generators and how automorphisms act on them and whatnot

#

but theres no guarantee the first group is f.g.

#

so its much more natural to look at it from an LA perspective (since the first group is a vector space over Z/pZ)

#

still an absolutely miserable problem though

#

i dont think anyone got 100% on it

#

(but the midterm was scaled such that a 50% on the test was worth 100% grade-wise)

slender dragon Oct 20, 2020, 4:00 AM

#

Yes it should be in repertoire of every mathematician.
@gray gazelle

What parts of Linear Algebra?

marble rock Oct 20, 2020, 4:03 AM

#

prerequisites for spivak's comprehensive introduction to differential geometry?\

#

i know uptill chap 3 pugh analysis , linear algebra and algebra dummit

gray gazelle Oct 20, 2020, 4:05 AM

#

some more MVC stuff wouldn't hurt but those prereqs look good

marble rock Oct 20, 2020, 4:07 AM

#

i am not good though

#

like im not capable with analysis

#

like

#

idk how to explain it]

gray gazelle Oct 20, 2020, 4:09 AM

#

you don't need the inequality pushing part of analysis for a book like spivak

#

chapter 2 of pugh is topology, right?

#

that's pretty important imo

#

however, if you include things like the inverse, implicit function theorems in analysis, then you do need those (maybe not extreme familiarity, but be comfortable with using them)

#

those come up fairly often

tulip glacier Oct 20, 2020, 4:12 AM

#

I have ordered Analysis 1 by Terence Tao. Is it good for a beginner ?

gray gazelle Oct 20, 2020, 4:12 AM

#

you ordered a book without knowing whether or not it'd be good for you?

#

sully

#

i have heard it's good

#

rather slow, but still good

tulip glacier Oct 20, 2020, 4:12 AM

#

I asked my friend. Just wanted to get ur opinions

#

i have heard it's good
@gray gazelle kk thanks 👍

gray gazelle Oct 20, 2020, 4:13 AM

#

http://libgen.rs/

Library Genesis

Library Genesis is a scientific community targeting collection of books on natural science disciplines and engineering.

marble rock Oct 20, 2020, 5:00 AM

#

@gray gazelle yes i know the topology

#

but i wasnt the most capable

#

with exercises

#

( at all )

#

and i thought chap 3 was uselss

#

other than proving MVT and Extreme value stuff

#

itr was just normal calculus from hs

gray gazelle Oct 20, 2020, 5:01 AM

#

why not just skim the first few sections of spivak and see if you need to brush up on anything in particular

slender dragon Oct 20, 2020, 7:32 AM

#

Someone here have read 'A Fucking Concrete Introduction to Abstract Algebra"m

#

📎 2_5341368676748627325.pdf

#

That's the book

hearty steppe Oct 20, 2020, 7:38 AM

#

Yo wtf this book is hilarious

slender dragon Oct 20, 2020, 7:38 AM

#

Yes

#

Read the proofs

heavy garden Oct 20, 2020, 8:12 AM

#

a b c murders

fast portal Oct 20, 2020, 8:33 AM

#

realshit

📎 unknown.png

#

📎 unknown.png

glad gazelle Oct 20, 2020, 8:37 AM

#

Haha, what?

worn matrix Oct 20, 2020, 10:41 AM

#

anyone got any opinions on the LotR books? I'm considering getting them but not sure

fast portal Oct 20, 2020, 10:41 AM

#

By LotR you mean Lord of the Rings?

worn matrix Oct 20, 2020, 10:41 AM

#

yes

gray gazelle Oct 20, 2020, 10:41 AM

#

Huge book

worn matrix Oct 20, 2020, 10:42 AM

#

oh, so it's not a light read? 😦

#

nvm that then, I need to find something that suits my tiny attention span

gray gazelle Oct 20, 2020, 10:43 AM

#

@slender dragon who did this 🤣

#

@worn matrix Try albert camus stranger

#

only 140 pages

worn matrix Oct 20, 2020, 10:44 AM

#

thanks, that sounds manageable!

fast portal Oct 20, 2020, 10:44 AM

#

Just so you know the books here are meant to be mathematics oriented

#

there is no explict rule against it but i don't think they created this channel with those in mind

worn matrix Oct 20, 2020, 10:44 AM

#

that makes sense, I probably should have considered that

gray gazelle Oct 20, 2020, 10:45 AM

#

btw lotr wasn't huge i mixed it with harry potter

runic hatch Oct 20, 2020, 10:45 AM

#

huh there actually isnt an explicit rule stating that the books have to be math-related

worn matrix Oct 20, 2020, 10:45 AM

#

I might give LotR a try, and Stranger too

gray gazelle Oct 20, 2020, 10:46 AM

#

really depends on what you want to read, reading for reading sake is mid

#

reading out of interest is cool

worn matrix Oct 20, 2020, 10:46 AM

#

I like fantasy but struggle with the length 🙂

gray gazelle Oct 20, 2020, 10:47 AM

#

then you don't like it enough

#

force yourself through it and get used/comfortable with long attention to books

#

everyone isn't born with long or short attention span, you get better with practice

#

(unless severe ADHD or some thing but then you're likely on meds)

worn matrix Oct 20, 2020, 10:48 AM

#

Yeah, I should stop making excuses and just force myself to concentrate

gray gazelle Oct 20, 2020, 10:48 AM

#

So dont use excuses like attentionspan

#

yeah

worn matrix Oct 20, 2020, 10:48 AM

#

Thanks for the pep-talk ❤️

gray gazelle Oct 20, 2020, 10:48 AM

#

👍

wooden sparrow Oct 20, 2020, 11:37 AM

#

everyone isn't born with long or short attention span, you get better with practice
@gray gazelle you sure?

crystal kraken Oct 20, 2020, 11:44 AM

#

"long or short"?

#

Pretty sure, everyone is born with one

gray gazelle Oct 20, 2020, 11:47 AM

#

Exclude the middle!

hasty turret Oct 20, 2020, 11:48 AM

#

Nah,Lem is not true

gray gazelle Oct 20, 2020, 1:28 PM

#

@wooden sparrow Yes?

sleek python Oct 20, 2020, 2:36 PM

#

LoTr isn't the best intro to topology

marble solar Oct 20, 2020, 2:38 PM

#

Lord of the Rings?

sleek python Oct 20, 2020, 2:40 PM

#

Lord of the Topological Rings

night geyser Oct 20, 2020, 4:29 PM

#

lord of the topological mugs

flint forge Oct 20, 2020, 6:08 PM

#

Topological rings vs Ring Spectra vs Spectra of Rings

cobalt arch Oct 20, 2020, 7:27 PM

#

Are there any books that pertain to the construction of mathematical objects after the establishment of predicate logic and set theory?

flint forge Oct 20, 2020, 7:28 PM

#

tbh forsaken im not sure what you're looking for

#

like you want to study analogies between fields rigorously?

#

this might be the only time to unironically suggest category theory

marble solar Oct 20, 2020, 7:31 PM

#

I agree with Max on this, if that's your shindig than Cat Theory seems the way to go

gray gazelle Oct 20, 2020, 7:32 PM

#

thonkstein

#

hmm

#

cat theory catThink

granite sluice Oct 20, 2020, 10:44 PM

#

@gray gazelle you sure?
@wooden sparrow much of improving attention has to do with creating environments where you have fewer distractions

wooden sparrow Oct 20, 2020, 11:06 PM

#

ok but not everyone have environments like that, and @gray gazelle 's statement of " don't make excuses" seems very git gud mentality to me

granite sluice Oct 20, 2020, 11:08 PM

#

Well, I mean an obvious environmental distraction for everyone here is social media. It seems wrong to say that not everyone can get manage that variable, at least to a degree.

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 12:02 AM

#

@granite sluice totally

#

@wooden sparrow and what's wrong with that?

#

since when is "git gud" advice bad especially in things like this where no one is in control and able to help except for the person themself?

#

it's more about dedication, discipline and responsibility than a rare advantage/disadvantage

#

it's merely reading a book

#

if I was offensive for telling them to git gud to the point where they can read a 300 page book, call me alt-right

#

fiction on top of that

#

LOTR

#

easier to read than moby dick

#

yes, and?

#

did he say he has ADHD?

#

definitely not true

#

but I did take it into account

#

if you read above

#

you arem issing some context

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 12:18 AM

#

Even if there are spectrums of concentration ability, it's still correct advise to say: create environments where you can focus and give it a meaningful shot. Also make sure it's something you want to focus on -- if something is boring, well, no wonder one is going to have a hard time focusing on it. 🤷‍♂️ So find something you want to focus on and focus on that instead. I've read 1000+ page fanfics at a time that I couldn't focus on anything else.

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 12:38 AM

#

man

#

people really love dragging every little criticism or tiniest thing they consider to be down-playing

dense wren Oct 21, 2020, 12:39 AM

#

what is the debate

#

concentration can or cannot be improved?

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 12:40 AM

#

@dense wren not even that anymore

#

they only care about how things come off as

#

covert communication on an internet platform

#

how pathetic can it get?

#

It's like in that netflix show I forgot name

#

where they are in a community where people will be angry if you give them the wrong look

#

nah it's even more pathetic than that 🤣 @sweet lotus

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 12:42 AM

#

I don't know what's going on anymore but I saw the word dog-whistle and am triggered: https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/06/17/against-dog-whistles/

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 12:43 AM

#

For on-topic's sake

#

Axler's LADR is not an introductory book

#

Yet it's everyone's favorite book to recommend

#

how did this happen?

#

"Hey I have never studied LA what's a good book on it?"
"Axler, it's made for grad/second course LA, so you who has never studied linear algebra should read it :3 "

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 12:44 AM

#

It's the "typical mind fallacy."

dense wren Oct 21, 2020, 12:45 AM

#

@gray gazelle I like the book, but yeah probably not super great for someone who has never done any LA

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 12:46 AM

#

Failure: Honestly I'm fine with books at that level being intro books

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 12:46 AM

#

We get it denmark, you are a prodigy 🇩🇰

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 12:46 AM

#

I think the idea that people have to see the pure computational linear algebra class before abstract vector spaces isn't true

#

I don't claim to be a prodigy by any means, it's not just my experience here

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 12:47 AM

#

I mean there has to be a reason to learn computational linear algebra since it's usually what people are first exposed to

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 12:47 AM

#

I have my problems with that book in particular

#

There is a reason

dense wren Oct 21, 2020, 12:47 AM

#

i feel like the main thing is the ever ambiguous mathematical maturity

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 12:47 AM

#

It's called budget

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 12:48 AM

#

same way you learn computational calculus before diving into stuff like Spivak or Analysis

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 12:48 AM

#

Math departments often don't have the money to offer a separate track for math majors from the engineering majors in the first 2 years

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 12:48 AM

#

fair

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 12:48 AM

#

So they just lump the math people in with the engineering people

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 12:48 AM

#

"like, idk why people even read books on linear algebra, it's all obvious stuff to me, just remember that these two spaces are isomorphic and that Vect is semisimple" ( a self parody)

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 12:49 AM

#

But it is absolutely possible to jump right into a Spivak Calc class, or into a theoretical linear algebra class

#

If people don't know anything about proofs or the subject matter you can't do it especially quickly

#

So e.g. if people already took computational calc you can prob get through all of Spivak in a semester

#

Because the ideas aren't new

dense wren Oct 21, 2020, 12:50 AM

#

i mean familiarity with writing proofs is one of the hardest parts isnt it

#

at the intro level

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 12:50 AM

#

While if this is their first time they need the standard time to grapple with the concepts as well as time to generically get the flow of proofs

#

So e.g. it was 5 weeks into my Spivak class before we discussed a limit

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 12:50 AM

#

Math pedagogy is hard. Most math people forget that 99.9% of math students are have minds that work very differently from them.

#

[Epistemic status: That percentage is totally correct.]

#

A lot of pedagogy needs to be chesterton's fenced in order to understand that it might be the way it is because it is not designed for your typical math phd student.

#

(Again, am mostly calling myself out here.)

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 12:52 AM

#

Linear algebra more than calc because I think the computational side doesn't even give you much momentum in the proof based side

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 12:52 AM

#

I think you are projecting your experience too much here, 95% of people who haven't done highschool calculus could not get through Spivak; And probably 80% of those who took highschool calculus couldn't get through Spivak either
The difference and leap from computational, formula-based, memorizing mathematics to pure abstract math in Spivak with proofs and rigorous concepts is a huge jump imo

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 12:52 AM

#

Like I can do Gaussian elimination fast

#

Oh wait

#

This doesn't help me understand the abstract notion of a vector space

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 12:53 AM

#

@dense wren agree

dense wren Oct 21, 2020, 12:53 AM

#

@gray gazelle i agree with that big time

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lmao

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 12:54 AM

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Gaussian elimination is pretty important.

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For understanding LA algorithmically at least.

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 12:55 AM

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It's important sure, I just don't think your ability to understand the concepts does much for grappling with the theoretical concepts. Compared to calc where it's more like

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Okay I know the derivatives of these functions and I'm sorta going back through and computing things I already know the answer to

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 12:55 AM

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I don't agree. It depends on what theoretical concepts. If you want to understand why certain operations can be performed efficiently and why others cannot, you have no choice but to think about the algoriothms.

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 12:56 AM

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I mean the context is a theoretical linear algebra class

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 12:56 AM

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Like I can do Gaussian elimination fast
This doesn't help me understand the abstract notion of a vector space
remove the word "fast" and it absolutely does

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 12:56 AM

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But [abstract vector spaces] is not the only way in which linear algebra is important. Anyway I'm not sure what exactly the discussion is here; what are we trying to figure out?

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 12:56 AM

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Whether it makes sense to recommend a theoretical linear algebra book as a first course

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 12:57 AM

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imagine if I tried Axler

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 12:57 AM

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Or whether you should first go through a raw computational course first

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 12:57 AM

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Oh, I see. I don't know. For people with typical math PhD brains, probably yes. For people who aren't built to think about that much abstraction, possibly not.

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 12:57 AM

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i think the answer to that is the same as the answer to calculus.

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 12:57 AM

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I think math PhD's, again, underestimate how rare the skill of 'think about this abstractly and precisely' is (whether or not it can be effectively trained in is another question, but if we are discussing intro classes...)

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Hence the 'typical mind fallacy' being relevant.

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 12:58 AM

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i.e. probably not worth tackling a fully "theoretical" text at first pass for most students, but certainly a "hybrid" approach is a very good idea for math majors

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 12:59 AM

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And my basic case is that there's more of a disconnect between grappling with abstraction and with the matrix computations. They're important to know but it's less "one sets up to understanding the other" you know?

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 1:00 AM

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Anyway this is why I'm saying it needs to be Chesterton's fenced; there is a reason why schools don't usually have the first LA class be via Axler, it's done more computationally. I'm not convinced that doing it the other way would be better; I'm sure people have tried, and I would be interested to know what went wrong.

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 1:00 AM

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i disagree with that actually

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i think the concept of row reduction is more directly connected to "the fundamental item" of linear algebra (vector spaces and their bases) than most derivative computations are to the "fundamental item" of real analysis (the limit and derivative)

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 1:01 AM

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For instance, I remember tutoring a engineering student about Linear algebra. He just could not understand the abstract notion of linear independence. He was very intelligent otherwise, but could not grasp that level of abstraction. (At least partly it's my failure as a tutor, but you know, I gave him many examples, many equivalent definitions, many exercises to try, he read from many sources ... :\ )

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 1:01 AM

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like okay let me clarify

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in an analysis context we care about the abstract derivative

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the derivative in the MVT or taylor's theorem or w/e

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it rarely cares what exact value that derivative has

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just that it has a specific value/property at some point

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i dont think the same thing holds in LA since

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:02 AM

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why not both in the same course?

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 1:02 AM

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we do very much care about the results of these comptuations

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since they tell us a LOT about some vector space we care about

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(i.e. they entirely determine it!)

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:02 AM

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proofs > computation
t. mathematicians

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 1:03 AM

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idk mabye im thinking too narrowly

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:03 AM

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The concept of row reduction is different from the act of doing it no? Like you can code it and know it's a thing that does what you want

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 1:04 AM

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certainly stuff like the gram-schmidt process or w/e

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isnt really core material

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besides knowing that it can be done

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:04 AM

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I don't know how much intuition comes out of doing it with a lot of numbers

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 1:04 AM

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I think he passed his linear algebra class, and probably was trained in the end to be relatively successful at some kind of professional work. But if the class had been about abstract linear algebra, he would never have passed. It would have weeded people with brains like him out; is that necessarily a good outcome?

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 1:04 AM

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(at least until you generalize it in lie stuff)

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:04 AM

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I mean I'm talking about math major classes rather than engineering

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:04 AM

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I don't see the point of discussing specifics like Row Reduction

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:04 AM

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I don't think it's productive to push proofs onto engineers

marble solar Oct 21, 2020, 1:05 AM

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I agree with iceberg, who in turn agrees with failure, who ultimately agrees with me

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:05 AM

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The point is, abstract/theoretical books are discouraged these days for a reason; It's not for budget

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:06 AM

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But if you're going for the math major you should be, if not currently able to handle abstraction, able to absorb it in time. And the way you do it is to do it

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:06 AM

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Almost nobody applies for math major anywhere

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 1:06 AM

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That's fine, but also math departments will have to deal with fewer math majors if that's the case.

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:06 AM

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Catering to a very small audience is stupid

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There are olympiads, AP courses and other honors classes for those

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 1:06 AM

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failure are you saying there shoudlnt exist math major-specific classes?

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:06 AM

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Okay let me phrase this better then

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:07 AM

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@quick hornet No I'm saying there's a different path for those

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 1:07 AM

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okay

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so is dami

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:07 AM

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There's a track for math majors which shouldn't be scared doing abstraction early

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 1:07 AM

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you seem to agree

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📎 unknown.png

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:07 AM

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In which case a better variant of Axler is fine for a first class

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 1:07 AM

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If there's a math major linear algebra class then I agree, but that's often not how things are structured. I don't know what the right answer here is though. I'm just saying I don't trust my intuitions about what would be good for the generic student, because (simply by virtue of being in a math PhD student), my intuitions about how people learn math are different from how a generic person learns math.

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:07 AM

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?!

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:07 AM

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If you're in engineering then Axler is neither a first course, second course, or nth course for any n

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:07 AM

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What Math major classes WOULDN'T use axler?

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hmm

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are you saying they use compuatational ones in math majors?

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:08 AM

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Most math majors in most places are just pushed through the computational ones first two years. Also your gripe was with Axler as a first course

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 1:08 AM

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i feel like "generalist" spaces about academic subjects inevitably become bad

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even this discord has a de-facto internal specialization to specifically pure mathematics

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mostly because of demographics

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:09 AM

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I'm saying I think we can reasonably partition people between:
(1) People for whom (a better variant of) Axler is fine as a first course
(2) People who prob aren't gonna bother with Axler-style stuff throughout undergrad

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 1:09 AM

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I agree with that partition. I'm not sure how it could be implemented effectively.

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 1:10 AM

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the way schools currently do it in canada?

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 1:10 AM

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I think part of the problem is probably implementing that. Here is where I think people have probably tried, with different levels of success and or failure.

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How do schools in Canada do it?

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:10 AM

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I mean, Chicago does it just fine, Madison basically does it fine, Europe at large for the most part

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Canada apparently

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 1:10 AM

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What's the measure of fine here?

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 1:10 AM

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there are a collection of introductory linear algebra courses

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usually one dedicated to math majors and called "honors" or "specialization" or similar

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which takes a hybrid pure-computational approach, leaning more towards pure

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and then (at least) one more "general" lin alg course

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which generally only spends a little bit of time on "abstract theory"

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:11 AM

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Chicago's a special case because there's no engineering and math majors (with rare exceptions) start with Spivak Calc first year

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 1:11 AM

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(many schools have multiple "general" lin alg courses, such as one for specifically engineering students or w/e)

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:11 AM

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@sage python 95% of people are not (1); (2) sounds like a product of their environment, not their ability to be able to do it so these two are weird comparisons

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 1:12 AM

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my undergrad had:

honors LA: serious math majors and sufficiently motivated CS/physics students
engineering LA: self-explanatory
general LA: everyone else

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:12 AM

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I'm talking about ability to do them

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:12 AM

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(2) is not as much an ability thing so much as

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:12 AM

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You seem to be talking about curriculum structure

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 1:12 AM

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and in terms of "theoretical-ness" it was

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honors > general > engineering

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also stats majors are generally included under the "math major" umbrella fwiw

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:13 AM

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If you're in engineering you don't have especially strong reason to bother with proofs, it's not that important for what you need to do

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:13 AM

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I almsot want to pick up Axler and try it to show denmark how terrible it will go

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 1:13 AM

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That makes sense. My intuitions are that individual institutions have to figure out how to structure such partitions based on their experiences with their typical cohorts.

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 1:13 AM

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denmark lmao

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failure im not really sure what point your arguing

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here

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:13 AM

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🇩🇰

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 1:13 AM

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it feels like you and dami are in different convos

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:14 AM

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yeah maybe

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 1:14 AM

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damis talking about the design of a course for math majors

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:14 AM

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And for the most part I think that math major has limited appeal and almost should have limited appeal

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 1:14 AM

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and youre saying "well not everyones cut out for that"

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even if we take that as true (it may be, idk the science/pedagogy)

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then you... probably shouldnt be a math major?

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:14 AM

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Let's drop it then

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:14 AM

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Because it just doesn't lead to careers the same way that compsci and science do

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 1:14 AM

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And for the most part I think that math major has limited appeal and almost should have limited appeal
@sage python I agree with this. A real danger for majors is that they get watered down.

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:15 AM

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If you're choosing the math major over another major you're sorta engaging with it "on its terms"

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 1:15 AM

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(This has happened in some places I'm aware of, for various institutional incentives like creating more degrees and passing more students.)

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 1:15 AM

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i do notice a general difference in attitude of students in mathematics vs cs/whatever

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most students in CS just want to pass

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most students in mathematics want to actually do well

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this is exaggerated moreso in engineering but i think thats understandable just because

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engineering standards are high as shit at most places

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at least here in canada, the workloads are insane

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so a "good" average is considered, like, high 2.xs instead of high 3.xs

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and fwiw i cant blame students for not wanting to spend as much effort in academics, or stress about living up to a high standard, or just being in it for the job, or whatever

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in fact thats probably a more responsible thing

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for the vast majority

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(though it would be nice to have more students interested in engaging with the material "for its own sake" rather than to check a box...)

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:18 AM

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going to try axler now never been exposed to even matrices

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 1:18 AM

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(cough much of the educational system is about generating signals for future employees to judge you by cough)

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:18 AM

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barely systems of linear equations

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:19 AM

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So I don't actually like Axler in particular

velvet briar Oct 21, 2020, 1:19 AM

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Axler is fantastic in many ways

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:19 AM

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What do you like?

velvet briar Oct 21, 2020, 1:19 AM

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Not so good in some others

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:19 AM

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http://www.math.brown.edu/~treil/papers/LADW/LADW.html seems good

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 1:19 AM

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📎 978-1-4757-2178-2.png

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:19 AM

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My own path through linear algebra was kinda weird

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 1:19 AM

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:^)

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 1:20 AM

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Roman is a good third book in LA...

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:20 AM

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Okay then I'm going to try LADW

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As first book

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:20 AM

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I had this 5 week class summer after my first year that was 2.5 hours/day, 5 days/week

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:20 AM

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without knowing Calculus or LA

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 1:20 AM

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eh roman is a fine second book

velvet briar Oct 21, 2020, 1:20 AM

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Honestly watch 3b1b's essence of calculus to at least get a quick feel imo

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 1:20 AM

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if your first book was axler-esque

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:20 AM

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Wish me good luck )

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:20 AM

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Daily psets

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 1:20 AM

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thonkeyes

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:20 AM

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And 3ish weeks of that class was linear algebra

velvet briar Oct 21, 2020, 1:20 AM

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Sorry, not calculus but the lin alg playlist

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 1:20 AM

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i actually really like roman's treatment of hilbert stuff

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way more approachable than most IMO

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though ofc it doesnt go into full func anal depth

velvet briar Oct 21, 2020, 1:21 AM

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Good to know I should probably read up

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:21 AM

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We didn't really use a book, one of my friends was consulting Axler

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I think I had half the picture from that class

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 1:21 AM

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~~anal depth~~ thonkeyes

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:22 AM

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Then in analysis my prof gave us Hoffman-Kunze

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And would give us psets and say okay read the relevant chapter of the book

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:23 AM

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I hate classes without textbook/lecture notes

#

📎 unknown.png

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Lmao

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From first page they assume I have PhD in LA

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dan

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 1:28 AM

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Here is the piece on the 'typical mind fallacy' that I was thinking of: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/baTWMegR42PAsH9qJ/generalizing-from-one-example
I think this is very relevant to many discussions of math pedagogy.

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:29 AM

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TL;DR

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 1:30 AM

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For instance: "I only really discovered this in my last job as a school teacher. There's a lot of data on teaching methods that students enjoy and learn from. I had some of these methods...inflicted...on me during my school days, and I had no intention of abusing my own students in the same way. And when I tried the sorts of really creative stuff I would have loved as a student...it fell completely flat. What ended up working? Something pretty close to the teaching methods I'd hated as a kid. Oh. Well. Now I know why people use them so much. And here I'd gone through life thinking my teachers were just inexplicably bad at what they did, never figuring out that I was just the odd outlier who couldn't be reached by this sort of stuff."

velvet briar Oct 21, 2020, 1:38 AM

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The axioms of a vector space are a little scary, and are usually hidden from most new students. They're important though, to really understand what's going on.

You can simplify them pretty quick. Scalars allow you to add, subtract, multiply, divide. Vectors allow you to add and subtract. You can multiply a scalar by a vector.

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:40 AM

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@velvet briar This wasn't too hard tbh

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But a page later and it gets insane

velvet briar Oct 21, 2020, 1:46 AM

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Hmm?

hollow peak Oct 21, 2020, 1:57 AM

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LADW covers almost all the material of ladr except for like direct sums

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:57 AM

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and determinants probably kekw

sage python Oct 21, 2020, 1:57 AM

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Flip lol

hollow peak Oct 21, 2020, 1:58 AM

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Expect it to be somewhat difficult though

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:58 AM

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LADW is like

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lecture notes of LADR

hollow peak Oct 21, 2020, 1:58 AM

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Hardly

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 1:58 AM

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axler at least tries to teach you

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this wrong guy straight up thinks this is your second nature

hollow peak Oct 21, 2020, 1:59 AM

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It's comprehensive, albeit doesn't go into infinite dimensional proofs for some important theorems and leaves you to figure out subjectivity and injectivity via pivots/rank which is fine

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I'm currently using it for my second look at LA, though, so maybe that's why I like it

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:01 AM

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@hollow peak what was your first course book?

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 2:01 AM

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The shoplifting thing was insane to me.
@sweet lotus Yeah, that was a surprise to me as well.

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:01 AM

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Huh? Shoplifting?

hollow peak Oct 21, 2020, 2:02 AM

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I didn't have a first book

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I picked it up bits and pieces

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 2:03 AM

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I think its relatively easy for me to accept that people have more or less detailed mental images, but visualizing things is such a key part to my thinking that I don't know exactly what I'd do without it. (Although it's not as vivid as what you describe.) I also get a lot of emotional signals while thinking though -- like little nudges of 'are you quite sure this is right' that are pretty useful when doing math, or just thinking in general.

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:04 AM

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@hollow peak Bro what?

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sully

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 2:04 AM

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I have very vivid (abstract) mental images when listening to music though.

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:04 AM

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Also kind you kinda proved my point, people who already have been exposed are very biased towards how "doable" these books are

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 2:05 AM

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Yeah it's fascinating. I wonder what it's like to be in Gromov's brain, for instance. What a mystery.

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:06 AM

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First timer in Linear Algebra could never touch Axler or LADW, unless they have been exposed to proofs and rigorous calculus before like Spivak or something

#

hmm

#

opencry

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 2:06 AM

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This is my favorite math meme.

hollow peak Oct 21, 2020, 2:06 AM

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What am I looking at

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:06 AM

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i don't get it, but i like it

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i like how the russian word for chat is literally just "chat"

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 2:08 AM

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What am I looking at
@hollow peak Galois scribbling notes in jail, Moses on the mountain, Scriabin's world ending symphony.

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:08 AM

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is it even possible to disagree with gromov?

hollow peak Oct 21, 2020, 2:08 AM

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First timer in Linear Algebra could never touch Axler or LADW, unless they have been exposed to proofs and rigorous calculus before like Spivak or something
@gray gazelle I can totally see LADW being a really good intro to proofs, it's rigorous but the exercises are relatively straightforward (in number of arguments required)

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:08 AM

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I disagree with Gromov here.

#

but

wooden sparrow Oct 21, 2020, 2:08 AM

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It's important to recognize that different people are going to have different difficulties with concentration
@inland coral not just concentration. Different people have different situational problems too. Just giving everyone a silver bullet kinda generalised advice to git gud is bad

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:09 AM

#

I agree with Ultra here.

#

@hollow peak Are you sure? Is that your own evaluated opinion from your own experience;
Or do you really think someone who hasn't studied proofs in mathematics and never been exposed to Linear algebra could pick up LADW?

hollow peak Oct 21, 2020, 2:10 AM

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Yes. My first exposure to proofs was lang linear algebra

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:10 AM

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git gud takes effort tho

wooden sparrow Oct 21, 2020, 2:10 AM

#

Sometimes Git Gud is the only reasonable advice.
@sweet lotus when everyone's having equal opportunities and environment, sure

hollow peak Oct 21, 2020, 2:11 AM

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If you want a gentle intro it definitely deprives you of the improvement that guided challenge gives you

wooden sparrow Oct 21, 2020, 2:11 AM

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Fuck

#

monkaS

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:11 AM

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@sweet lotus This

#

LOTR as an intro to proofs?

#

so you agree with ultra here hmm

#

yes@gray gazelle

#

If you want a gentle intro it definitely deprives you of the improvement that guided challenge gives you
@hollow peak Lang or LADW?

hollow peak Oct 21, 2020, 2:12 AM

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Honestly Lang is probably harder than LADW

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:12 AM

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@sweet lotus Preach 💯

hollow peak Oct 21, 2020, 2:12 AM

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Definitely more terse

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:13 AM

#

Lang has two books, introduction to linear algebra (for first timers) and Linear Algebra (for graduates I think?)
which one? @hollow peak

hollow peak Oct 21, 2020, 2:13 AM

#

My point being that math which kicks your ass but not to the point of not understanding is very good for you

#

If you're willing to take the time

#

Both are the same book

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:13 AM

#

No

#

they cover different material

hollow peak Oct 21, 2020, 2:13 AM

#

hmmm

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:14 AM

#

his intro book covers pretty much like Axler

hollow peak Oct 21, 2020, 2:14 AM

#

I was under the impression he had "Introduction to Linear Algebra" and "Linear Algebra" both in UTM

#

And they're basically the same book

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:14 AM

#

the other one cvovers shit like diagnolization of unitary maps, convex sets, hermitian case, etc

#

the first book doesn't

#

@hollow peak they don't even have the same table of content bro

hollow peak Oct 21, 2020, 2:15 AM

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yeah I used the harder one then

#

I remember the convex set stuff eugh

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:15 AM

#

yeah first one doesn't cover that

#

second one seems much harder

#

muuuuuuuch harder jesus

hollow peak Oct 21, 2020, 2:17 AM

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yep

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 2:17 AM

#

@sweet lotus when everyone's having equal opportunities and environment, sure
@wooden sparrow A rule which is true for most (not all - for instance I am excluding the several mentally ill from this) of humanity is that it is up to them how they react to their environments. (Channeling Aurelius' Meditations here.) Deciding to 'git gud' is one possible reaction, and is possible in most environments, although of course various factors make it easier or harder. I think it's also basically the right reaction in most modern circumstances, because skill is generally rewarded, and developing a skill at intellectual tasks like math requires little beyond time, a book, paper and (ideally) a supportive community.

hollow peak Oct 21, 2020, 2:18 AM

#

If you just want LA at a really basic level then strang is good for computation

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:18 AM

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I don't want to compute

#

I just want to see if your hypothesis that someone like me can do a book like Axler or LADW is true or false

#

If I wanted to do computational LA I would just use khan academy

hollow peak Oct 21, 2020, 2:19 AM

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You can ask for help too, it's not like you're completely alone in learning material or being confused

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 2:20 AM

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I think there is something to pointing at differences in opportunities and environments, but a trap is to focus on those as an excuse for individual failure, rather than as a social problem that progress can be made towards solving.

broken meadow Oct 21, 2020, 2:27 AM

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lol Git Gud

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 2:27 AM

#

Also when it comes to reading, personally I've found it much easier to focus on fanfic than serious literature (like LOTR) at different points in my life. There should be no shame in milking fascination with a fictional universe for all it's worth, and there are some truly incredible fanfics in even the silliest fictional universes (e.g. Naruto or Pokemon).

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:27 AM

#

^

#

I meant ninja not crustle

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 2:29 AM

#

on one hand, fanfic reading is totally valid if you find interest in it, im not gonna tell you not to do what you enjoy

#

on the other, im gonna scoff and look down at you for it

#

not openly

#

but in my head

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 2:29 AM

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All I will feel in response is sympathy that you are missing out on something really fun.

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 2:29 AM

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these might seem like contradictory positions

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and i think they probably are

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i just have... stereotypes

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(most of which are probably wrong, all of which are certainly not universal)

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:30 AM

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Lmfao

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 2:31 AM

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lmao. HP has some great fanfic. HPMOR is an obvious one, there's also arithmancer, which is appealing to math students for obvious reasons (although I didn't make it through part II, just got too long).

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:31 AM

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pepega

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 2:31 AM

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like im sure im just predisposed to think negatively of it because of the bad apples being more public/visible

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 2:32 AM

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One of my favorite ones is one where Hermione gets sorted into slytherine, and attracts the attention of Tom Riddle's diary, who starts training her into the next dark lady.

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It is awesome, though unfortunately incomplete.

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 2:33 AM

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there's a lesswrong fanfic

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what even is lesswrong

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i dont get it

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 2:33 AM

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I feel weird for sharing so many SSC things today but as you bring up 'my immortal' I must: https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/05/26/my-immortal-as-alchemical-allegory/

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there's a lesswrong fanfic
@quick hornet MK is referring to this: http://www.hpmor.com/ . I personally found it to be a fun read, but ymmv obviously.

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:34 AM

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Hey hey, I think it's time to call samanthacs here

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 2:35 AM

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oh

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:35 AM

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Oh, you are here

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 2:35 AM

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is lesswrong like

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as bad as my impression says

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sort of unrelated

slender sphinx Oct 21, 2020, 2:36 AM

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does fanfiction imply romance? Genuine question

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 2:36 AM

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It's mixed, there are good and bad things there. The obsession with AI risk is weird and annoying though.

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@slender sphinx It doesn't, although slash-fic is popular for obvious reasons. (Who doesn't want to see Harry and Snape fall in love in a touching and creative way?)

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:37 AM

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To bad book discussion chat doesn't have reactions

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 2:38 AM

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Yeah exactly. Much of literature is fanfic. Hamlet is fan fic, at least to an extent.

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Good fanfic will take the tropes of a familiar narrative universe and explore 'what if this other thing happened?' It's fascinating.

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An academic book on fanfic I read (they exist) describes it as being similar to speculative science-fiction in that way.

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Like, HPMOR is basically "Harry Potter, but what if Harry Potter was obsessed with rational decision making and raised by a biology professor?"

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:40 AM

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Topkek

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 2:41 AM

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And Arithmancer is "Harry Potter, but what if math is the basic language of magic, and you can become a better wizard by studying cohomology?"

runic hatch Oct 21, 2020, 2:41 AM

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fanfics can sometimes be better than the source material

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but usually you'd need a sufficiently large number of fanfics for that to happen

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 2:41 AM

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yeah you see

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lesswrongs emphasis with so-called "rational decision making"

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makes me feel

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very suspicious

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 2:42 AM

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Yeah. One of the dynamics with fanfic is a large fanfic community exploring the universe is analogous to a large scientific community exploring a topic; they end up pushing it beyond the seminal contribution.

quick hornet Oct 21, 2020, 2:42 AM

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like i'd like to imagine i'm a fairly rational person for the most part, of course i sometimes emphasize short-term gains over long-term ones so im imperfect

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but i cant imagine what would motivate someone to like

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seek out a group of people to just

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discuss such a vague and broad topic with

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and my ego is pretty big

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i dont mean this as a dismissal of the philosophy of rationalism fwiw

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but if thats what its targeted towards

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then like

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why not just saay that

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just say "this is a discussion forum for rationalistic philosophy and epistemology" or smthn

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 2:44 AM

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I personally have learned useful things from the LW stuff, although mostly through SSC, which is an offshoot. I agree that some of it is weird, but it's all pretty consistently about people saying 'hey I notice I have this bad pattern of thinking, and here is something that helps, what do you think?'

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I don't like the naming in the sense that it implies that other people are not rational, though.

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Well I'd like to make fewer mistakes, in general. I think that is a reasonable goal.

soft terrace Oct 21, 2020, 2:46 AM

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can u do something entirely good without having a rational reason to do so?

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:46 AM

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spin

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Anyone loves

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Trigonometry

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 2:46 AM

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@soft terrace I think so, yes.

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:46 AM

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pusheencry

soft terrace Oct 21, 2020, 2:46 AM

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i mean as in entirely good = good in every way

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just to be clear

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 2:47 AM

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Oh, idk.

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I don't even know what that means, really. most things have trade offs.

soft terrace Oct 21, 2020, 2:47 AM

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if not then it is safest to live rationally to get the best outcome yes?

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 2:47 AM

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I thought you meant: "Can I do something correctly, even if my reasons are incorrect?"

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There are limitations to how rational people can live.

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There are times when it is irrational to be rational.

soft terrace Oct 21, 2020, 2:48 AM

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physical restrictions or conceptual?

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 2:48 AM

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Sigh (at doing this again, not the topic), relevant SSC: https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/06/04/book-review-the-secret-of-our-success/

soft terrace Oct 21, 2020, 2:49 AM

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i personally am not a big fan of social pressures

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 2:49 AM

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The linked articles gives some interesting examples of when seemingly irrational behavior is correct, and for physical, not social reasons.

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No worries, I realize sending so many 'read this' is .... mildly cultish behavior.

soft terrace Oct 21, 2020, 2:50 AM

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what is ssc used for ?

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 2:50 AM

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The earlier posts you gave were good so I imagine you just have better luck with SSC than I do.
@sweet lotus I think it's partly that I have friends who read this, and so good ones get signal boosted.

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what is ssc used for ?
@soft terrace Slate Star Codex, the name of the blog.

soft terrace Oct 21, 2020, 2:50 AM

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oh this is a blog

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 2:51 AM

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I don't take you for a cultist don't worry.
@sweet lotus Phew... now let me tell you about the deluxe rationality package...

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I agree with Ultra here.

soft terrace Oct 21, 2020, 2:52 AM

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u should bait all the high school hw help ppl into joining

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its best to recruit cult members lower on the education scale imo

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they might get ideas the higher up u go

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excellent choice

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lol i was going to say that

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 2:55 AM

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The way most religions do.
I agree with ultra here

timber mesa Oct 21, 2020, 2:59 AM

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so are you gonna set up an entire education system and a weekend ritual around your cult?

granite sluice Oct 21, 2020, 3:01 AM

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ultra already has a discord. continuous brainwashing.

hollow peak Oct 21, 2020, 3:03 AM

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how long have you been in this server?

gray gazelle Oct 21, 2020, 3:03 AM

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"I agree with ultra here" has been said 150 times (151 now).