not yet
#book-recommendations
dense pewter
flint forge
Really professors are like
Pokemon
They evolve into professors
After fighting eachother
faint parrot
flint forge
You pit undergrads against eachother
And the most successful ones level up
And become professors
Qed
Pokemon
dense pewter
i do feel bad though :( the situation is super shitty for both students and instructors. I'm trying really hard to make the course "not that bad" but it's just so hard to do it online
steel viper
i want to be a pokemon
gray gazelle
my last semester of UG was this spring and I was taking grad classes and they let me just skip the final
steel viper
please free me from consciousness
valid moth
i used to be like 18 bmi
valid moth
also hegel wait
flint forge
Like
gray gazelle
nice
flint forge
Im just so bored and tired
valid moth
max is also 69 inches no
steel viper
5'9" is optimal because 69 inches and also
flint forge
All the time
steel viper
4'20"
valid moth
lol wtf
flint forge
69 AND A HALF
steel viper
or uh
valid moth
max that's not as funny
steel viper
not exactly but its like on the threshold
flint forge
never
valid moth
wtf
gray gazelle
5ā11.8 gang rise up
dense pewter
the worst part is that everywhere is just acting like things are "completely normal, just online" and there's pressure on instructors to just act like nothing is wrong
gray gazelle
Hi buncho
dense pewter
hi frucht
dense pewter
oh have I complained in here yet about the dumb decision the washu admins made about thanksgiving break?
flint forge
No?
dense pewter
so basically like, the semester ends on december 18th, final exams are after christmas and will be done remotely, and students have thanksgiving break off
flint forge
Im trying to decide whether to ask for extra gre time bc adhd
dense pewter
but if they leave campus they won't be allowed back on
steel viper
pride is for suckers
dense pewter
and they will have to stay home for the rest of the term
I don't really get it
just finish before thanksgiving break if you expect it will be that bad
valid moth
the GRE seems like a bad test
gray gazelle
It is
flint forge
I think the point is to like
gray gazelle
oof
flint forge
Incentivize them not to leave
dense pewter
instead of making students decide "see family or see friends"
flint forge
Id rather have the choice tbh
dense pewter
also yes arch it is a bad test
flint forge
I dont think im going back
gray gazelle
The GRE in physics was basically a high school test
dense pewter
I guess this system would be good for you
gray gazelle
The questions seemed amc like 
dense pewter
I just see lots of other institutions doing the opposite -- trying to finish before thanksgiving, or at the very least sending everyone home for thanksgiving and having the last week remote
gray gazelle
The general GRE was just the SAT after working out for a few days
flint forge
Yeah uchi is as im sure u kno
flint forge
My parents full expect me to@come back
gray gazelle
Most schools are doing the thanksgiving thing
flint forge
Idk how to tell them lol
dense pewter
anyone staying in dorms will be fucked I think
flint forge
My friend is trying to find a campus on uchi campus rn
Unrelated shes not a student per se
gray gazelle
??
steel viper
eeveeThink
dense pewter
like, anyone who has ever been in a dorm at all knows how badly the regular flu spreads through them
flint forge
But she is getting screwed bc everyone had to flee the dorms
Its gonna destroy campus
Like genuinely
gray gazelle
What does 'find a campus on uchi campus' even mean
College campuses are literally the perfect victim for the virus
dense pewter
yeah it happens every year
a wave of students in the same dorm gets sick all at the same time
dapper root
Hi sloth
flint forge
Ppl have already been throwing frat parties
dense pewter
and getting infected lol
valid moth
what's freshman plague
gray gazelle
Just live in a private apartment 
flint forge
Idk if youre in w that crowd buncho
valid moth
flint forge
But its scary
steel viper
that was the most delayed "hi sloth" ever
gray gazelle
freshman plague is mono I think
steel viper
is the sophomore plague gonorrhea
dapper root
Kissing disease
gray gazelle
in a sense yes
dense pewter
mono is spread by kissing but also in plenty of other ways
gray gazelle
Shared drinks
dense pewter
I got mono a couple years ago so I would know haha
gray gazelle
Why canāt I react to anything
valid moth
banan flexing having had a nonzero amount of kisses š
valid moth
dense pewter
that was my point
dense pewter
mono isn't spread by just kissing which I know because I got mono and wasn't kissing
gray gazelle
And a guy
valid moth
i see
gray gazelle
In the same night
dense pewter
sloth why you shaming me :(
I guess my message did sound like I was trying to be smug
gray gazelle
Not really
gray gazelle
I mean I donāt think anybody out of high school actually flexes that they kissed someone unironically
steel viper
also lorenzo has been typing and deleting for the past seven eons
gray gazelle
^
dense pewter
haha
valid moth
steel viper
hes going to post a dissertation so epic its going to rival the upanishads
granite sluice
(trying to choose my words carefully, sometimes shitposting isn't worth it)
steel viper
an entire world religion will be founded upon it
gray gazelle
absolute disappointment
granite sluice
(no mostly deleting)
steel viper
valid moth
what if you could see what other people were typing
gray gazelle
U hyped urself up big time
dense pewter
lorenzo having the constant "thought of a good reply but the conversation already moved on" feeling
valid moth
lol
i remember one time in 2nd grade
i had a good and relevant thing to say
and i raised my hand but
they didn't call on me
dense pewter
D:
flint forge
I have been banned from raising my hand in several classes
dense pewter
that's not something to be proud of
gray gazelle
My 4th grade bully told on me for bullying him
steel viper
i remember one time in 2nd grade when i had a good and relevant thing to say and then my parents lost me in harlem
gray gazelle
In the US, does participation in class count towards your grade?
flint forge
I didnt say it was
steel viper
i saw someone do meth
gray gazelle
He was both prescient and viciously manipulative
steel viper
it was a formative experience
quick hornet
depends on the professor, but for mathematics, generally not @gray gazelle
flint forge
I only raise my hand to answer questions in fairness
steel viper
nice
flint forge
Its actually had a detrimental effect on my education
valid moth
there was one timeā so, they tracked your behavior in class with a traffic light system, green best and red worst, and i finished my homework early and said (excitedly) "done!" and i got placed into the yellow light area
lost fjord
yes
quick hornet
still depends on the teacher in that case
flint forge
I stopped participating in class as a result lol
quick hornet
but i'd say it's more likely to matter
steel viper
kind of same max
quick hornet
at a high school level
gray gazelle
steel viper
other things that impact my education are
lost fjord
I lost points in my math class b/c I kept losing my warm-ups which were basically participation
gray gazelle
Here it makes 60% of your grade which is pretty bad
valid moth
also in peru at first i was very very participatory and answered all the questions until teachers stopped calling on me
dense pewter
I mean I think it depends -- if a student just tries to answer every single question I ask, that disrupts everyone else's education
steel viper
my inability to get out of bed for any reason other than being so sad i need to listen to car seat headrest
valid moth
and then i stopped participating at all
dapper root
In community college all of my math classes had participation
valid moth
lol
flint forge
Sure buncho but like
flint forge
It sucks to be told to stop answering things
steel viper
cuz its low effort
flint forge
Like why even show up lol
lost fjord
Oh lol
dense pewter
if you're just answering questions to prove that you know things
lost fjord
My alg 2 teacher told me to stop answering stuff
dense pewter
that's jsut not helpful
valid moth
"i agree with what the last person saidā it's true that [one thing they said], because [explanation they gave], and yeah pretty much"
flint forge
I dont see what other purposr there is
gray gazelle
@steel viper we should switch
flint forge
To answering questions?
steel viper
no
flint forge
Its not like im 100% correct
gray gazelle
lmao arch
dense pewter
to see if you're right? to test out an idea?
gray gazelle
thatās literally every class
flint forge
Thats why I answer them
dense pewter
also like, you have to understand how this impacts other students in the classroom
flint forge
Well
dense pewter
if one student constantly answers everything
they learn that they never have to participate
flint forge
I guess
dense pewter
because one student will always do the answering
valid moth
I guess
flint forge
Seems like you should focus on positively incentivizing them
dense pewter
should a teacher say "you're not allowed to talk"? no
flint forge
Rather than hurting the only person trying
gray gazelle
Hard to take max seriously because of the emote in his name
dense pewter
but they absolutely should say "we've heard a lot from you, I watn to hear from someone else"
flint forge
Thats fine
gray gazelle
Makes me feel empathy constantly
valid moth
for each question a student answers, they should be able to come to school 5m later in the morning
that would be a tremendous incentive
flint forge
Or like in office hours
dense pewter
the classroom is a community space and every student should take some responsibility for the learning of everyone else
flint forge
They admit they are just never gonna call on me again
dense pewter
and it's honestly super selfish to be like "the only learning that matters is mine so i'm going to dominate the discussion"
granite sluice
@dense pewter but sometimes no one else asks questions
dense pewter
if you can't monitor yourself, someone has to
granite sluice
there's a trade-off
dense pewter
yeah, they don't participate because they don't feel like they need ot
steel viper
also buncho i dont think people get how hard it is to regulate that when you're neurodivergent lol
dense pewter
because one or two students do all of the participating
flint forge
If youre suggesting a student who knows the answer just shouldnt raise their hand
Thats kind of fucked imo
Like
steel viper
and its frustrating when teachers get combative for something you dont have that much control over
dense pewter
sure sloth -- I'm not saying a teacher should be combattive
flint forge
It seems like youre blaming the wrong people
If other people arent answering questions
Its not the fault of the people who are
dense pewter
but I'm saying it's absolutely okay for them to pull you aside and say "hey dont forget everyone else"
granite sluice
we should have more reversed classrooms anyway, they're more fun
dense pewter
you can literally stand up there and say "I won't move on until I see 5 people raise their hands"
steel viper
because they have not slept in 37 hours
flint forge
Maybe it decreases the silence
dense pewter
guess what? students will participate when you remind them it's a required part of the class
flint forge
But in my experience it doesnt prevent others from answering
If they arent answering
Its bc they arent understanding
Or arent comfortable
granite sluice
yeah mostly people are terrified to participate
gray gazelle
I hate participating
granite sluice
its emotionally very stressful
dense pewter
yes, and if one student lieks to show off how much they know and be right all the time, that also doesn't create a very comfortable environment
this is on both student and teacher here
flint forge
Its not showing off lmao
gray gazelle
Usually my question leads to a tangent explanation that talks half an hour to explain
flint forge
Its participation
gray gazelle
Office hours is the way to go
granite sluice
its framing as showing off that makes it more stressful
dense pewter
if student gives right answers all the time and teacher just says "great! perfect! let's move on" and acts like the only thing that matters is getting the correct answer
valid moth
i think the correct way forward for max/me/etc in those situations is to raise hand, answer part of q, then randomly call on someone else to finish the answer
dense pewter
that's going to exacerbate the situation too
gray gazelle
honestly itās all circumstantial
granite sluice
one thing I found that helps is to write down my tangent questions in a nb and ask after
getting them on paper gets them out of my head
dense pewter
I've been the loud student and the quiet student before. there is absolutely a sense of "I'm going to wati for max to answer because he usually says the right things"
flint forge
I literally stopped doing ibl problems bc the prof told me i wasnt presenting again lol
granite sluice
and focus mostly on clarification questions during class
valid moth
what's a nb
granite sluice
notebook
valid moth
i read nlab for a second and was very confused
granite sluice
lmao
valid moth
ok, mlab then
steel viper
yes good
dense pewter
the professor has to take some steps to let the person talking that they are going to wait for other resposnes
granite sluice
small brain: taking notes big brain: live blogging notes to nlab
flint forge
Thats fine
dense pewter
would you rather your hand be ignored?
flint forge
Yes
dense pewter
or the prof say "i'm going to wait for other people"
gray gazelle
biggest brain: taking nap during class and pull all nighter studying before exam
dense pewter
how is that different from asking you privately to be more considerate of others by not immediately answering every question?
flint forge
That wasnt what was said, again
I said they told me to stop answering
Not wait longer
dense pewter
you said that teachers were discouraging you and that was how you said they did it
flint forge
Literally stop participating
dense pewter
by telling you privately to stop answering
gray gazelle
amen sloth
flint forge
I learn way better when im trying to follow and answer things
steel viper
then you can do anything
valid moth
look there's no point to school when you can just https://store.steampowered.com/app/1349230/5D_Chess_With_Multiverse_Time_Travel/
granite sluice
š¦
flint forge
Because I was discouraged
gray gazelle
do you think ur learning has decreased significantly?
dense pewter
i'm encouraging you now to participate more but to just keep other students in mind
dense pewter
and think about how they perceive it when one person does a lot of talking
flint forge
Sure but that is not my point
Like again
Thats not something Im struggling with
I always wait to raise my hand
Until the silence is deafening
And I still get told to stop
granite sluice
š¦
dense pewter
then don't raise your hand in those situations
flint forge
????
granite sluice
Buncho I don't think you're being reaosnable here
flint forge
Then fucking when?
granite sluice
....
flint forge
Lol
dense pewter
sorry, don't always raise your hand in those situations
dense pewter
I want you to think more about the classroom as a whole and less about your own individual experience
flint forge
I want you to think more about what Im saying and stop assuming I dont
I am happy when people other than myself answer
granite sluice
(I'm personally enjoying how much this parallels the anarchism vs. state centralization argument ... š )
flint forge
I have no interest in showing off, I dont care about peoples opinions
Certainly not my classmates
dense pewter
okay -- I'm having a hard time understanding what you're saying because you are saying "i'm not even that bad" but clearly if it's a pattern where multiple instructors have asked you to scale it back
then there is something to it
flint forge
Thats your faulty assumption
There is
Reread what you wrote
Have you considered that it might be professors not teaching properly
steel viper
i feel like its worth repeating that particularly for neurodivergent people in these situations it generally doesnt stem from wanting to show off lol
flint forge
I spend countless time helping my@classmates
dense pewter
are the professors at fault? sure, clearly they aren't creating the best environment
hearty steppe
^
flint forge
I write study guides and organize sessions
gray gazelle
I think most people who participate do so in virtue rather than vice
granite sluice
yeah. I often can't move onto process the next thought until I clear my mind of the current question.
flint forge
I enjoy helping and creating a fun learning environment
granite sluice
like, its taken me years to be ok with typos on the board
steel viper
same
gray gazelle
u guys are all neurodivergent?
flint forge
Apparently
steel viper
idk about everyone
dense pewter
if you want to create a good learning environment then why don't you trust the several professors who have told you that occasionally not answering would create a better learning environment for hte rest of the class?
steel viper
but some of us
granite sluice
a few things that have helped: 1) writing questions in my notebook 2) trying to beat the professor to the proof of the thoerem (by writing in my notebook)
flint forge
I did trust them
dense pewter
I am neurodivergent but not adhd
flint forge
Maybe it did
But I lost out
Majorly
Its not like I disobeyed
But my education was harmed
granite sluice
I had a postdoc tell me somethign similar at one point
granite sluice
it hurt my feelings a lot, even though he was very gentle about it
flint forge
And only do it when no one else@does
granite sluice
and i stopped going to his class
flint forge
Ill even like make hand signals to show the prof I know without raising my hand so i dont have to
It sucks
granite sluice
its a pretty difficult thing to balance
(I think I was a lot more sensitive back then though)
flint forge
My entire point is that you are siding with profs and completely ignoring the consequences those actions have on students
gray gazelle
Personally, from my brief experience as a TA, I think itās a good thing when someone is asking a lot of questions and answering all the time as long as their answer is clear
steel viper
personally as an autistic person i try hard to err on the side of caution and avoid raising my hand too much which isnt hard because most of my classes are fucking boring but its kind of frustrating when people in positions of authority tell me "you're doing it wrong" and i dont have any frame of reference for what doing it "right" would look like
dense pewter
max I think you are ignoring the consequences that your actions have on other students
steel viper
"tone it down" is a very imprecise request lol
flint forge
But Im not
Ive brought them up
And explained how I think about them
And you just keep repeating that
Like I dont know how to convince you that I understand and try to strike a balance
granite sluice
I think if the intentions behind your questions are to improve comprehension of the material then asking questions is good
dense pewter
no?
flint forge
Which is like
granite sluice
I've believed for a long time that if I have a question then half the class does as well ...
flint forge
Yes
dense pewter
I even said I encourage you to participate?
but just keep in mind the other students?
asking question si great
everyone should ask questions
flint forge
I feel like youre not listening to me at all though
dense pewter
I'm talking about answering questions that get asked
granite sluice
I think maxwell is keeping the other students in mind though
steel viper
idk its just like when you say "find a balance" it presumes a kind of basic understanding and ability of that balance which is not something everyone has
dense pewter
yes sloth I agree which is why the professors should help the students find a balance
flint forge
Its like talking to a wall that responds with pre prepped talking points
flint forge
And is trying to teach me a leason
dense pewter
both directly through one-on-one conversations and indirectly by how they manage the class
flint forge
Lesson*
granite sluice
ah ok, yeah. i mean from the lecturers pov asking questions to the class is one way to get a sense of whether they are following.
steel viper
and not just as the person being told to tone it down
gray gazelle
I like books
granite sluice
yeah I agree, only certain questions are good
steel viper
but ive watched a lot of other neurodivergent people basically being told "you're doing it wrong" with no real help given on doing it "right"
flint forge
If they arent for clarification
granite sluice
others are better for after class
dense pewter
yes sloth I agree that is a problem
flint forge
And clarification questions when you dont need them
steel viper
as i said i dont actually participate that much lol
dense pewter
and I agree that instructors don't do a godo job of managing that
good point max
not all questions are good
and that's an example
mossy flume
there was a girl in my intro physics class who kept asking "but how do we know {basic fact} is true" for EVERYTHING
flint forge
Well
mossy flume
like "how do we know gravity is down"
gray gazelle
Not a bad question for physics
mossy flume
but like it was constant
flint forge
Made in ha physics
granite sluice
but its also disruptive
flint forge
Yeah
mossy flume
and class just turned into "answer her question" time
granite sluice
the worst is when someone has a vague question
gray gazelle
Thatās no bueno
steel viper
were her questions worth answering
granite sluice
and takes like 5 minutes articulating it
mossy flume
god no
granite sluice
ask after class!
mossy flume
they were even answered in the textbook >_>
gray gazelle
Usually the lab to accompany intro physics should help with the āwhyā part of physics
mossy flume
I mean this was HS
mossy flume
there was no seperate lecture and lab section
gray gazelle
Ah
granite sluice
I think in research seminars the culture is a little different though
because people are peers
asking open ended questions as they come up is normal
dense pewter
max let me ask this question and maybe we will finally agree on something -- let's say that there is a student in the classroom who always jumps on questions and doesn't wait at all for other peopel to answer. how should the prof approach and handle that situation?
wraith monolith
The worst questions are the ones that go "isn't it true that x" where it's clear they just want to show off the fact that they know some fact that hasn't been taught yet
mossy flume
I hate those people @wraith monolith
dense pewter
do you mean after class pull them aside?
flint forge
Yeah
granite sluice
maybe you could ask people to write down the answer first
dense pewter
great, we agree
dense pewter
yes you did say that
gray gazelle
The worst questions are the ones I know the answer to
granite sluice
that way you can see who is writing , they can be seen writing and everyone gets a chance to articulate their ideas
mossy flume
there was a kid in my calc 3 class who would always ask me questions, and then I'd give an answer, and then they'd answer in a way where I knew they already understood the material and wanted to show me that "oh yea I already knew that"
gray gazelle
#deep
wraith monolith
@mossy flume I cringe so much harder because I used to do that in like freshman/sophomore year of HS
dense pewter
but I still think that it's important to realize that sometimes instead of jumping to give an answer when there's silence, it's also okay to let the prof give follow-up prompts and let them manage the discussion
gray gazelle
Lmao
hushed sequoia
Imagine participating in class
I stopped raising my hand a few weeks into freshman year
steel viper
i miss my alg 2 participation grade
flint forge
Again you keep rephrasing my position to be unreasonable so you can criqitue it
gray gazelle
I was forced to participate in HS and got a 2.7; I never participated in college and got a 3.9
dense pewter
you said you wait until there's a deafening silence
gray gazelle
Coincidence?
dense pewter
and then raise your hand
granite sluice
maybe professors shouldn't say "whats the answer to this" and instead say "think about this for a moment"
flint forge
Yes
granite sluice
if they want to guide thinking
dense pewter
okay, so I didn't misinterpret that?
sage python
Tbh the entirety of last year it was basically one of 3 options: participate, miss class, or doze off
flint forge
If a prof doesnt allow painful silence
dense pewter
yes lorenzo I agree
flint forge
I wont do it
sage python
Had mad sleep apnea
flint forge
But like
dense pewter
lol max it's not your class???
it's not your decision how much silence there should be?
flint forge
And?
granite sluice
honestly inverse classes are the future though
flint forge
Why not
dense pewter
because you are not the only person in the room?
flint forge
It makes me and other adhd people incredibly@uncomfortable
dense pewter
then you should bring that up with the professor
flint forge
Id rather not attend
hearty steppe
What is an inverse class
dense pewter
and say that it's difficult for you to participate in class
gray gazelle
1/class
flint forge
I think your position here is ridiculous
dense pewter
because of how the questions and answers are managed
flint forge
You think its not omay
Okay*
To wait for
Like over a minute
Before raising a hand
granite sluice
@hearty steppe It's when students work in groups to learn/understand material through problem solving and the prof and TAs float around and help them.
granite sluice
you need a certian level of student to get it to work though
gray gazelle
Where is ultraproduct with another witty comment
flint forge
That just seems like a bad teaching strategy
If you have to use silence to make people talk
You have built a bad environemnt
And its not my failt
wraith monolith
@flint forge look, if the people in your class don't like the way you're participating you should change it. It doesn't really matter if it's reasonable.
dense pewter
yes!!!! we agree!!!!!! the instructor has done a bad job somewhere along the line
dense pewter
yes they prefer having someone else to take the pressure off of them
granite sluice
dense pewter
yeah I agree it's a bad point
gray gazelle
I was genuinely waiting for your comment
gray gazelle
Thatās the only reason Iām still here
flint forge
To drag answers out of people
dense pewter
no
flint forge
And more painfully ban people from ending it
dense pewter
also no
dense pewter
if you think the professor is doing a bad job then why bail them out?
gray gazelle
I promise you I was not being sarcastic but I can leave now
dense pewter
I know that's not what you said
flint forge
Because the professor might be struggling
But the students are too
Myself included
Im not bailing the prof
Im bailing the uncomfy people
gray gazelle
No it did seem like 50/50 sarcastic after rereading it
dense pewter
I mean, the more you describe it, the more this class jsut sounds so bad that honestly it doesn't matter
which I guess means i'm on your side
fuck it, nobody is learning anyway
flint forge
Like idk it was kinda annoying that you were assuming the worst of me
dense pewter
I wasn't assuming the worst
granite sluice
maxwell youd like inverse classes because they are like small scale anarchism
flint forge
I try my best to not stand out lol
sage python
Yeah if a professor is telling you to knock off from participation that's where I'd just stop attending and do something else
granite sluice
on a scale where that can work because there's enough mutual trust
sage python
Like I cannot handle that arrangement at all
dense pewter
well, I wasn't assuming the worst in you in particular
but like, I just know that some students can be really bad
I'm oging to call him out here cuz i've done it before but like
aleph is so bad at this
literally any time I try to explain something to someone else, he just jumps in and tries to complete my own sentences for me
flint forge
Well yeah thats annoying af
dense pewter
yes
flint forge
Trust me i hate kids like that
granite sluice
and they actually work realllly well in practice: https://openlearning.mit.edu/mit-faculty/residential-digital-innovations/students-collaborate-online-and-class
they manage both problems you two are bringing up...
flint forge
But if the subject is just as new to me as anyone else
I enjoy trying to keep along and answer stuff
quick hornet
interesting case: when i was a first year undergrad i noticed i was doing that all the time with my peers but
flint forge
Why hate someone for being enthusiastic?
@sweet lotus you can usually@spot the difference between enthusaism and ego boosting
quick hornet
specifically with my female peers
so then i was like "do i have some latent misogyny im not acknowledging"
dense pewter
yes max I have been in the same position before too
wraith monolith
That's the worst feeling
quick hornet
or at least i'd like to think i did
dense pewter
wanting to keep up as much as possible
flint forge
I mean if the issue is women not raising hands that obv a problem
I just think its backwards
To blame the people who are
Its not like ur blurting out answers
dense pewter
but like, one way that I channeled that was instead of answering things first, I wrote down my answers and waited to see if they were correct, and then if they weren't I would raise my hand and ask
wraith monolith
When the prof asks a question, what percent of the time is it you who answers?
dense pewter
I'm not trying to say "this is what you have to do"
quick hornet
200%
wraith monolith
That's a good idea
quick hornet
for every question the prof asks, i answer 2
dense pewter
but like, I think there are ways to stay actively involved without answering every question
flint forge
I guess that works
dense pewter
now I know that we've already agreed that this one particular class you were talking about was really bad
flint forge
But is not any fun
Like again I dont need a class to do that
Id just not show up
At that point
dense pewter
I'm not saying that I never participated, I just said that I wasn't always the first one to participate
sometimes I was the first one
sometimes I was the second
sage python
Max ugh you need to take a class with Babai
dense pewter
and sometimes I just wrote it down to ask after class privately
sage python
He's the most participation based prof there
dense pewter
max I wish all classes could be like
sage python
I don't know if you'd like the material but damn he's good
wraith monolith
If a wildly disproportionate amount of questions get answered by the same person that's a problem regardless of the circumstances imo.
dense pewter
but in my experience both as a student and as a teacher, it is sadly the case that the more one student talks, the less other students do
I don't think that everyone should talk exactly equally
some people learn more by observign and scrawling notes in their notebook
and asking quesitons later
and some learn more by asking questions on the spot
gray gazelle
Pareto
dense pewter
some just feel more comfortable speaking and so are more likely to speak
gray gazelle
I hated speaking in class and it's worse when literally no one else participates
granite sluice
part of the problem is that sometimes half the students literally dont care
and asking them to participate is pointless
gray gazelle
You could say guggugagah and people will state at your face in a weird way
Absolutely hate it
granite sluice
thats true at least for lower level clases
dense pewter
but in an IBL class in particular for example, it's important for everyone to get several chances at the board. I wouldn't have told you that you don't get to participate, but I would do something like what john boller does -- when he asks for volunteers, he starts with "first pick goes to the people who have only presented 3 or fewer times"
it is first and foremost on the professor to ensure equitable access to the classroom "discussion space"
and different profs have different ways of doing that, some of which are more productive than others
it seems like your experience has been with generally unproductive profs
which is disappointing and i'm sorry that you've experienced that
granite sluice
buncho the best way to do that is to run an inverted classroom
dense pewter
but I just hope you can understand their intentions
granite sluice
to ensure access to discussion space I mean
and (unlike anarchism š ) it does actually work in practice, with the right set up : good, motivated students, and a reasonable students / TA and prof ratio.
sage python
Eh, if a prof doesn't execute it well then how important are their intentions to a student?
gray gazelle
The path to hell is paved with good intentions
sage python
lorenzo: what's an inverted classroom?
gray gazelle
granite sluice
I participated in this. It was excellent.
steel viper
lorenzo is cringe and must be sent back to 1921 ukraine to experience real existing anarchism
wraith monolith
Anarchism does work in practice tho
steel viper
wait was the free state even still a thing in 1921
steel viper
yes
wraith monolith
agreed
sage python
What's the best math book
gray gazelle
Bhagvad gita
steel viper
anarchism works in practice just look at my thought process : )
granite sluice
lol
gray gazelle
Woog will vouch for that
steel viper
democratically managed by my various neuroses!
granite sluice
thanks ultraproduct
sage python
Is that one of woog's meditation things?
gray gazelle
Yes and also something the Indian people built a religion around
But that's not that important
granite sluice
no but seriously, inverted classrooms are great. a lot of the issues that Buncho and Maxwell were talking about get resolved in them.
steel viper
its a hindu scripture
granite sluice
they are hard to run -- it requires a lot more groundwork -- but its not impossible
steel viper
i dont think it has that much to do with meditation
granite sluice
Erik Demaine built some software to help it work better
sage python
I see. So woog does non-meditation things then
granite sluice
the goals are different also -- more oriented towards education than transmission of material
it works on a small scale
sage python
Nah but yeah hmm best math book my vote is... tbh how many books have I read enough of that I can say? Serre Course in Arithmetic is real nice so far
wraith monolith
I changed my avatar from a politics one to a math one to avoid exactly this
valid moth
broke: anarchism
woke: ancap
sage python
What's the worst math book you've seen?
steel viper
u
granite sluice
sage python
Uh oh
granite sluice
im joking ive never actually seen this book except on the internet
i guess thats where i see most book nowadays
sage python
I probably hated Buck's Advanced Calculus the most?
Our professor pulled 2 psets from it
flint forge
Ugh why are there gre answers that differ by at most a sign
sage python
And holy shit it's bad
flint forge
Thats so frustrating
sage python
Riiiiiip mgre studying have fun
dense pewter
maybe if you were a good student who RESPECTED THE CLASSROOM THEN YOU COULD FIGURE OUT THE SIGNS
flint forge
I am humanly incapable of manipulating a polynomial
granite sluice
uh oh Poes law
flint forge
W/o fucking a sign
dense pewter
that's why I always work mod 2
steel viper
respect the signs fool
valid moth
just work mod 1
flint forge
Same but unironically
granite sluice
even mod 2 you have to distinguish cochains from chains sometimes
there's no escaping sign
flint forge
What
granite sluice
arrows pointing left from arrows pointing right
granite sluice
there are two conventions in a particular area of algebra
granite sluice
its because you can't escape signs in the degree (indexing by n)
flint forge
Because you can like think about it
Yes lorenzo
I know what a chain complex is lol
granite sluice
idk sometimes its realllly complicated
flint forge
Even in SS its not that bad
You just ignore signs until the end
And then choose the one that makes sense
And then redo your math properly
gray gazelle
granite sluice
okay but do intermediate the arrows go left and up or down and right
flint forge
Depends on if its cohomological and your convention
But this rarely@causes confusion
granite sluice
it def causes confusion beccause conventions are .... um... decentralized
gray gazelle
oh god
granite sluice
ok even im getting tired of anarchism jokes at this point
good point ultraproduct
granite sluice
wherever there is a conflict between individual freedom and central authority there is an anarchy joke or communism joke ready to be made. its easy fodder because its everywhere - e.g. in the discussion between Buncho and Maxwell about classroom participation.
dense pewter
but that doesn't make it funny lol
flint forge
Its honestly more of a capitalism problem
In a communist society there would be no need to show off in a classroom
As the incentives would not be self promoting
š
steel viper
socialism is when two people disagree and the more disagreer they are the socialister it is
dense pewter
@flint forge I just ate lunch and reread the whole conversation above and you were right that I did put some words in your mouth. I was taking my frustration with other bad students out on you which I shouldn't have done. I was imagining my classrooms and not really thinking about how you were describing your classrooms looked
wraith monolith
Students who talk way too much is something everyone's experienced, it's natural to look at something and go "oh, that's another example of this common thing" even if that might not be valid
dense pewter
also @steel viper you are right about neurodivergent people being asked to police themselves isn't okay and I tried to agree with you as it came up but I don't think I really internalized that as much as I should have at the time
gray gazelle
@sweet lotus I donāt know if it was just me but I genuinely found most of your comments during this argument hilarious
dense pewter
I don't know why you need to point this out as a happy ending? especially when you didn't really contribute to the discussion at all lol
gray gazelle
Nobody really contributed to the discussion except you and max
flint forge
I will say that ultraproduct is the most interesting new user in a bit
Very interesting vibes
gray gazelle
Except whoever kept bringing up inverse classrooms
flint forge
I wont define a bit so no one gets offended
dapper root
Bit = time since I joined 
dense pewter
@gray gazelle that was lorenzo but sometimes it's hard to take them seriously since they shitpost so much
flint forge
Bit is a function of the reader
dapper root
Time since I joined 
steel viper
my vibes are exquisite
and very normal
because i am a normal person who does normal people things
flint forge
Haha dw even if buncho thought my opinion was dumb there wouldnt be any hard feelings
dense pewter
were we ever unmade? I just think it's weird for you to assume things about my relationship with max
broken meadow
d ou b t
flint forge
But that can be hard to know
steel viper
i-im so normal
gray gazelle
u give off Pisces during renegade vibes
gray gazelle
*retrograde
broken meadow
embrace it sloth
flint forge
Or a normie
broken meadow
there is no shame in being different
dense pewter
like, the conversation wasn't a performance for you to enjoy
broken meadow
lol
steel viper
pls
flint forge
I think the exclmation marks perfect it
broken meadow
yes!!!
gray gazelle
Buncho I think he was just happy, like the rest of us, to see this argument get resolved
dense pewter
also yeah max I figured we were always cool and I respect you so I wanted to let you know how I felt after thinknig about it some more
and also sloth I felt bad for not agreeing with you more at the time
steel viper
me, a normal person, who is normal and average and does not have a discord server with over 5 thousand messages about raidou kuzunoha the 14th from the devil summoner subfranchise of the megami tensei franchise of video games
and more seriously its ok buncho
flint forge
Okay
I have
Come around on some gre problems
They are just bags of tricks
Its almost amusing
dense pewter
yeah
flint forge
But very frustrating from a pedagogical/practical stand point
granite sluice
no i really mean it about inverse classes. I participated in that one run by Demaine and it was one of the btter educational experiences of my life.
dense pewter
except it's not amusing
dense pewter
haha
flint forge
Id find it amusing
sage python
yeah
dense pewter
lorenzo I assumed you were serious about that but I'm just saying it is hard to take you seriously in general
max, I'd buy it
gray gazelle
Admin should make a shitposting role
dense pewter
oh god I thought you were going to say "the bee movie"
steel viper
no!
sage python
Tbh I'm pretty sure if I was on the committee, the main thing I'd see about the SOP would be if there's an indicator they want to work with someone in particular
steel viper
i have class im original
steel viper
i mean if i was reviewing potential students
sage python
And then otherwise it's their grades and rec letters
steel viper
and i saw on their personal statement
gray gazelle
Rec letters >>> grades
steel viper
"Kill everyone now, condone first degree murder, advocate cannibalism, eat shit! Filth are my politics, filth is my life!"
I would immediately accept them
gray gazelle
Research >> grades
dense pewter
yeah sloth I probably would too
sage python
Undergrads rarely have research that matters at all lol
gray gazelle
There might be a notable distinction between the weight of physics UG research and math
dense pewter
also related https://i.redd.it/athpw622vle51.jpg
sage python
To the point where modulo exceptions, and those exceptions prob have good grades anyway, research is near irrelevant in math grad admissions
steel viper
oat milk
gray gazelle
both is bad
dense pewter
I've never had oat milk but I do like almond milk
gray gazelle
Makes sense. Hard to contribute as a UG in math when thereās not much you can do empirically.
dense pewter
plain almond milk it a little sweet but I prefer it in cereal
or like, as long as it's with something else
gray gazelle
almond milk has a bad after taste
sage python
Also we got off track here again let's go to #discussion
gray gazelle
imo
dense pewter
i'm sorry you think that
lol dami
we have been here off-topic for hours
I did try to move it to chill at some point
but nobody followed me :(
well max did
but nobody else
gray gazelle
you wanted to move back because of meaty
dense pewter
haha oops
steel viper
and then we all moved back
sage python
Revisionist history
steel viper
why oops
gray gazelle
why the hate for meaty though
dapper root
Dami do you really think researxh plays no bearing
I thought itās commonly touted that you really want to do an REU
dense pewter
I was thinking more like "oh only max moved over, i'm going to make a joke about meaty and go back to where everyone else is"
I didn't realize I had actually squashed the movement
dense pewter
hahaha
valid moth
let's move to #discussion then
steel viper
meaty is objectively anathema to productive conversation
gray gazelle
flint forge
Reus are for rec letters š
sage python
My general impression is that if it's just some cutesy mini paper that the prof had a proof outline for and gave some undergrads that he knew could solve it
Then like nobody gives a shit
valid moth
yeah i mean he kind of just starts talking about swatting flies
sage python
The rec letters can help
sage python
But the mere presence of research is irrelevant unless it's actually legit
uneven zephyr
has anyone got recommendations for books on chaos theory? at an introductory level
hearty steppe
You mean Dynamic Systems right? I havenāt gotten there yet
Would be curious as well
hearty steppe
I read some reviews on Byers and it is not really a beginner friendly book.
Definitely still gona save it for later though
pale oasis
hearty steppe
Hey Max you said you donāt recommend anything by Morris Kline?
I have a few books on my list by him I want to check out eventually.
I think Iāll just stop side tracking myself and focus on learning more actual maths
flint forge
Huh
Idek who that is
Also you can ping me for stuff like that i only saw it by chance
deft nymph
Anyone know any good differential geometry book?
gray gazelle
are you looking for a book on manifolds, or a book on geometry in, say, R^2 and R^3
for the latter i'll recommend do carmo's differential geometry of curves and surfaces
flint forge
Id recommend Hatcher
hearty steppe
I try to not ping people but I thought you checked out one of Morris Klines books recently
When someone brought it up earlier
flint forge
Maybe without realizing?
hearty steppe
Oh ok
flint forge
No im not familiar
I comment on the subject sometimes
But not these specific books
hearty steppe
Iāll check these reads out soon when I feel more comfortable with my maturity in theoretical mathematics
deft nymph
@gray gazelle for manifolds
deft nymph
Are those authors?
gray gazelle
yes
lee's introduction to smooth manifolds and tu's an introduction to manifolds
the usual rec is lee
deft nymph
@gray gazelle Alright Tysm!
flint forge
Oh dont thank me
I was kidding
Hatcher is an AT book that is completely unrelated lol
Tterra gave good recs tho
deft nymph
Oh didnāt know lmao
gray gazelle
smh algebraic topologists only thinking of things up to homotopy
flint forge
Yeah i assumed someone would point it out
hearty steppe
Yea you seem to really like Hatcher. Iāll remember that when I start learning AT in maybe a year from now
flint forge
Well I do think hatchers the best option
hearty steppe
Thereās so much I have to learn lmao
flint forge
But 1) dont tell peter may i said that
And 2) hatcher sucks
Concise is very good but requires a LOT of mathematical mathrity
gray gazelle
@deft nymph lee has a lot more material than tu, and by a lot i mean like twice or three times as much. tu is very gentle and easy imo, but i enjoy his exposition so i included it
flint forge
Maturity
deft nymph
@hearty steppe I feel the same way. The more I learn things the more I find things out, or the more I learn things. The more I feel like Ik nothing lmao!
limpid gazelle
And 2) hatcher sucks
Wait max are you serious?
deft nymph
@gray gazelle ah alright Iāll check both books out