book-recommendations

[valid moth]

i do all my analysis on C-R

[quick hornet]

theres a whole laundry list of other criteria that holomorphicity is equivalent to

[broken meadow]

arch

[quick hornet]

but basically since it's such a powerful condition it's:

• easy to check

• tells you a lot about the function

• gives you a very strong intuition

[valid moth]

fuck the reals
all my homies hate the reals 😎

[quick hornet]

the JOKE, then, is that because these functions are so "nice"

they almost feel like constant functions

(for a humorously broad definition of "almost")

[brittle latch]

ah lmao alright, i vaguely follow

[granite sluice]

they're locally like z^k

[quick hornet]

since constant functions are also, of course, very easy to study and well-behaved

this is perhaps a bit of an easier explanation to follow if you're familiar with real analytic principles, like everywhere-differentiability and analycity

in a real analysis setting, the latter condition is very hard to check for a general function

and also fairly "rare" (although most "common" functions follow it)

in a complex analysis setting, the latter condition is the same as the former

which makes life a lot easier

since it means we can apply a lot of theorems about analyticity "automatically" if we know the former criteria (which is generally easier to check)

or if we know another criteria, for example:

[valid moth]

do people use mathbf irl

[quick hornet]

yes?

[valid moth]

maybe hold the chalk sideways

[quick hornet]

thats where blackboard bold comes from

[valid moth]

i see

[quick hornet]

thats why we call it "bold"

[valid moth]

why do they use that and not mathbb

[quick hornet]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[valid moth]

it seems like mathbb would be easier

and save chalk

[quick hornet]

in the context of wikipedia

rendering mathbb requires copy-pasting symbols which may or may not render on all displays

or, for example, screen readers

[valid moth]

i see

i say let it not render for the peasants

[quick hornet]

i think wikipedia had a problem with the "preview overlay" feature not rendering mathbb at all

for example

though i believe theyve fixed that, the point stands

[valid moth]

i see

[quick hornet]

anyway i dont think wikipedia prefers one style or another

as long as its consistent on a per-article basis

[valid moth]

Use both in the same article

[quick hornet]

i believe it prefers mathbb in "rendered math" but doesnt care in body text

[valid moth]

lol

i mean i could see that for a category C and C

[quick hornet]

ah yes, gottta love all those maps from an open set in a category to the category itself

makes so much sense

[valid moth]

in the same article

not an arrow away from each other

[hearty steppe]

Has anyone read “Mathematician’s Apology” by Hardy

[limpid gazelle]

I read the first page then got bored

[wooden sparrow]

It's not good?

[limpid gazelle]

It’s too serious and philosophical for me

[granite sluice]

if u want a mathematical ideology to hang on to read Thurston's proof and progress

its a lot of less grumpy

[hearty steppe]

wdym @granite sluice

[granite sluice]

https://arxiv.org/abs/math/9404236

I justmean that both give some sort of idea of what it means to be a mathematician

Thurston is another option which is more optimistic I think

but idk

ymmv

[hidden abyss]

is tom apostle's calculus book the best one

[fathom monolith]

Spivak alternates between she and he pronouns in examples when talking about mathematicians and i think thats cool. Thank you for coming to my TED talk

[cloud trench]

Interesting

[quartz pawn]

@hidden abyss I've bought Apostle's both editions but I've never really looked at it hard.

I'm going to look at them soon when I go back into analysis and calculus etc

From what I've seen, it's easier than Spivak

[faint parrot]

Hi @quartz pawn

[pulsar aurora]

I like Tom Apostol's calculus, but may not be for everyone

[gray gazelle]

easier?

[hearty steppe]

I don't think I'd recommend someone with no calculus experience either of those books. I think they are great for reference when you want to dive into real analysis. idk. Maybe Apostol. Calculus is a subject you can learn that has some great online video series options on youtube to choose from and you can use any generic textbook for problem sets.

like Spivak and Apostol don't seem problematic for me to interpret, but I'm speaking as someone who has already learned up to and including multivariable calculus before even being exposed to those books.

[dapper root]

Those’re my feelings. I feel like those are gonna be really really hard for a first pass and after you have had a first pass why not just do analysis

[hearty steppe]

you need to have decent exposure to proofs before actually doing analysis

I'm speaking from personal experience

I still got to work through the Velleman proofs book but I am grasping a bit of the initial chapters of the analysis books I'm using. I just haven't tackled any of the problem sets yet cause I want to save that for when my proof writing foundation has matured a little better

[dapper root]

Idk I just

Hopped straight into honors analysis and just flailed around

And then got used to it so I’m probably not the average on this respect

[gray gazelle]

Don’t most linear algebra courses serve as an intro to proofs?

For me it went: LA -> Analysis and Algebra

[near adder]

My encounter with LA was that out lecturer went through many proofs, but it also went in on the computational stuff.

[gray gazelle]

I definitely recommend apostol for a gentle introduction to linear algebra

And then jänich

And a problem book of your choice

And i don't think there's like a perfect book for calculus

Just pick up apsotol and then do real analysis lol

Apsotol has a ton of questions so it'll acquaint you with proof based mathematics and it's an easy book

[quartz pawn]

^

I wouldn't touch Spivak or Baby Rudin yet unless you have a solid grasp on proof writing and foundations of math and maybe a first course in Analysis

[gray gazelle]

Also Evan chen's napkin is brilliant for an overview

Maybe topology will pique your interest lol

[pulsar aurora]

As someone who went into Apostol with essentially no level of proofs or calculus, I found him accessible. Difficult, but not inaccessible. So, you will learn quite a bit and developed the necessary mechanical ability that you'd learn in your basic calc 1 and 2 of college. That said, it takes a while before you actually figure out the mechanics because it's a long journey of establishing the minute details to lead up to it.

Although, that said, it serves my needs in that I want to know more of the why behind Calculus instead of just memorizing formulas and rules.

I feel Spivak is terrible for this, and probably has no intentions of that

[quartz pawn]

Spivak does but you will only gain that level of thorough understanding if you do all the problems and you really think about them.

[gray gazelle]

The best textbooks are the ones you can finish

[quartz pawn]

He only really gives you the bare essentials and expects you to be clever enough to pick up on the pieces.

The exercises build on each other too.

[gray gazelle]

Idk why everybody keeps asking about textbooks for calc

It doesn’t make a difference if you do Spivak or some weird generic textbook

[pulsar aurora]

Yeah, I'm not clever. 😛 not saying Apostol holds your hands, but he does go into more details than Spivak.

[gray gazelle]

Just do what’s comfortable for you and build from there

[lost fjord]

There should be a subset of this channel called #calc-book-discussion :^)

[pulsar aurora]

Nah. Most discussions boils down to "Should I do Spivak, Stewart, or Apostol"

Then people suggest Stewart or Spivak depending on goals/level

[quartz pawn]

^

[solemn mantle]

What's the deal with spivak

I've heard of it

What's particularly special about it

[quartz pawn]

It's kind of an analysis textbook rather than a calculus textbook. It's a favorite amongst alot of people because it's conversational in it's tone, has difficult problems, and has some philosophical remarks on calculus. It's a book that you would read to develop your mathematical maturity and really understand why calculus works the way that it does.

[marble solar]

It's an accessible text that teaches proof based calculus with hundreds of exercises varying substantially in difficulty

[solemn mantle]

Wow that's pretty lit

[quartz pawn]

I'd say it's accessible after a first course in analysis or a very solid background in foundations i.e. set theory propostional logic functions induction etc, methods of proof etc.

[marble solar]

I had it as a calculus course at community college

[quartz pawn]

Oh snap

[marble solar]

I don't think that's an accurate statement John

[quartz pawn]

I've found people with similar sentiments.

to my own.

It's definitely harder than anything in stewart or any of those other generic calc textbooks.

[marble solar]

You can teach it at an intro level, you focus slightly more on the computational problems

And it takes guidance from a good instructor

[gray gazelle]

There’s no point in taking analysis before Spivak

Your first course in analysis covers delta epsilon proofs and much more

[quartz pawn]

Yea it's not really a "calc textbook" imo.

It's more philosophical and difficult then anything out of stewart.

[gray gazelle]

It’s a calc textbook with a little bridge to analysis

[quartz pawn]

You can probably get through it without a first course in analysis .

[gray gazelle]

No calc textbook is philosophical?

[marble solar]

I mean I'd argue that the other books aren't calc books and Spivak/Apostol/Courant are the calc books

[quartz pawn]

It has some philosophical remarks

[gray gazelle]

I make some philosophical remarks

[quartz pawn]

Sure lol.

I was talking to after42

I don't really feel like posting anything lol.

[quick hornet]

🤔

[quartz pawn]

Its definitely not like a foudnations textbook.

I'm just saying it delves definitely more into the philosophy of calculus than most standard textbooks.

[marble solar]

How so? I literally had it as that

[quick hornet]

i'd be very surprised if a book called "calculus" that advertised itself as a diff/integral analysis textbook covered foundations, yes.

[gray gazelle]

To integrate or to not integrate, that is the question

[quartz pawn]

I mean I have both stewart and spivak and Steward is mad easy

I just do problems out of it because there is a bit of a dearth in problems in Spivak that require explicit routine computation.

[marble solar]

It depends on the chapter

[quartz pawn]

It does talk about sets and ordered fields and stuff in it.

[marble solar]

Chapter 19 has plenty of tricky integrals

[gray gazelle]

Maybe I have an old edition then

[marble solar]

Chapters 7 and 8 leading into the three hard theorems is more conceptual

Chapter 2, where it introduces basic combinatorics and induction formulae has plenty of concrete problems to work on

[quartz pawn]

It definitely does but there's only like 49 problems in 19

[marble solar]

Some of them have 19 parts!

[quartz pawn]

lol but spivak has like over double that amount for each of the different integration techniques you learn.

[marble solar]

Or something ridiculous

[quartz pawn]

Yea

I'm saying they are way harder than the problems in stewart.

[marble solar]

Dostoevsky is harder to read than Rowling

What is new

[quartz pawn]

But I'm also speaking from the perspective of someone who is considering it for self-study

I'm not saying don't read it lol.

I'm saying it is a harder text and that if you are going to self-study be prepared to struggle.

You'd have an easier time by far learning out of stewart.

[marble solar]

I think it's ok to not understand everything as you approach it. It's up to the taste of the student

Whether they want a more theoretical approach or computational aproach

I prefer texts that you can actually read and gain insight, so I prefer Spivak and Apostol

But there are uses in having prescribed rules to get people comfortable

[pulsar aurora]

I found Spivak a bit in a bubble, but I didn't get that far. Just felt short-handed due to not having any calculus at the time

[quartz pawn]

Same neveza. After calculus and a first course in analysis. I'm positive I can get through all of it.

But I tried it as a intro to calculus text years ago and I couldn't get through it really at all.

This is me self-studying.

Maybe if I had someone to hold my hand through it.

[marble solar]

It usually takes guidance from an instructor or incredible will power

[pulsar aurora]

That said, I learned something from Spivak, but I didn't know how it was applied. 😛 Just like, "So I learned this... cool."

[marble solar]

I mean someone had to

[quartz pawn]

True.

I'll stand by my statement that at the very least you should have a solid background in basic foundations before attempting self-study.

You never want to be stuck in that situation of understanding what you are trying to prove.

[pulsar aurora]

Where as Apostol starts off with Archimedes(?) problem of finding the area under a curve, and then moves into set theory, summations... etc before Integrals. Everything felt connected.

[quartz pawn]

Yea Spivak the exercises build on themselves

It's apparent.

[marble solar]

Yeah, in the 60s and before half calculus texts taught integration before differentiation

[quartz pawn]

Like you'll be doing an exercise and you're like "It looks like I should use something I just proved from the previous exercise and 3 before it for this problem".

[marble solar]

And the other half taught differentiation first

My prof. Had the genius idea of teaching both at the same time

[faint parrot]

Hi John

@quartz pawn What's up

[marble solar]

I love that guy, he kicked our ass

He gave a speech at my wedding

[faint parrot]

What?

[marble solar]

Literally changed my life to become a mathematician

[faint parrot]

[marble solar]

Because of him

He just wished my bride and I well etc.

[faint parrot]

Lol

[tight crag]

You're married?

[faint parrot]

Hi Moon Bears

😀

[marble solar]

Yeah, 2 year anniversary coming up

[tight crag]

Nice

[quartz pawn]

@faint parrot hey

[faint parrot]

Nice

[marble solar]

Ty

Hi proxy

[faint parrot]

Hello

How is philosophy going for you?

@quartz pawn How is your experience with this server?

[quartz pawn]

It's pretty good. It's helping me sharpen my skills.

[broken meadow]

and also about what to do in math to get good at math

[faint parrot]

My math needs work

I need to review calc again

[brittle latch]

same i havent look at calc in so long

lowkey miss it tbh

needa find some fun practice problems

[gray gazelle]

@brittle latch check the pins in #calculus

[brittle latch]

will do merci

are there pins like that on every channel? bc if so 👀

[gray gazelle]

Not every one

A few do though

[fast turtle]

@fast turtle if you have trouble with algebra don’t use Lang. It’s better as a reference or like second pas textbook. First textbook only if you’re a maverick
@dapper root sorry for the very late reply, thank you, I decided to stick with Robert Ash for now, it is very clear and self-learning friendly.

I checked the other books and they turned out to be good too but as you said, they kinda have a reference vibe, not a self-learning book

[gray gazelle]

Does anybody know any books about the history and development of math?

I don’t really understand how or why analysis, algebra, etc. were actually created. I know the applications but I’m not exactly sure outside of the physics-math complex how these ideas naturally came about

[dapper root]

I’d be willing to bet that that was honestly the majority of it, but I would be interested too

[gray gazelle]

No

Ideally I’d want something that not only talks about the chronology and development of math but also something that talks about the philosophy of math/intuition behind it

I’ll check the websites out; thanks

[stray veldt]

there is a great 2 book series that does that

unfortunately it is german

and nobody seems to be willing to translate it

[gray gazelle]

Found something that looks promising

http://u.math.biu.ac.il/~rowen/HISTORY.pdf

[stray veldt]

(if anyone cares, i was refering to Hans Wussings "Mathematics 6000 years – a cultural and historical journey through time")

(he also wrote a book specifically about the history of algebra)

[valid moth]

@stray veldt what if someone offered you nitro for you to translate them

[stray veldt]

its 2 books with like 500 pages each

no thanks

[valid moth]

wtf

year long nitro then

[stray veldt]

what does nitro do

[valid moth]

uh

you get to post emotes

from any server you're in

[stray veldt]

sounds like a whole lot of im not interested

[valid moth]

yeah but it's like

worth at least $50

(usd, not canadian dollars)

[faint parrot]

Flowery metaphors lpl

[valid moth]

i think that's a bargain loch

[stray veldt]

just learn german tbh

[valid moth]

reading in mathfrak sounds hard though

[stray veldt]

also those books require a lot of math knowledge

at least the 2nd book

i dont even understand part of it

[dull moon]

Mathematical thought from ancient to modern time.
By Morris kline

It's amazing.
only downside is it's 1200 pages,
And it gets quite boring and hard to follow at times

Although from the title i expected it to be no less than 1500 pages.
So, its quite moderate in size for a comprehensive history

[flint forge]

how is it amazing if its boring and hard to follow

[dull moon]

And if you're one of those people that barbarically skip prefaces and tables of content.
I would strongly advise you against doing that for this particular book

[gray gazelle]

Does anyone have a good copy of halmos' linear algebra problem book?

Libgen had a weird version

[flint forge]

Libgen?

Ah

[dull moon]

how is it amazing if its boring and hard to follow
@flint forge
I said "at times"

Meaning it's not the majority of it

[gray gazelle]

You're amazing

And boring

And hard to follow

How did that make you feel?

[flint forge]

Im certainly hard to follow

My talks could use work

[gray gazelle]

Don't say anything

Done

Meh I'll check libgen again

These scanned versions are abysmal

[dull moon]

To be fair you can't discuss mathematics and history, without avoiding being boring every now and then.

[gray gazelle]

I forgot this isn't chill

My bad

What is up with halmos and bad quality pdf's?

Perhaps because they were published way back when

I can't finda good version of finite dim vector spaces either

[quartz pawn]

@gray gazelle yea for some reaons it is hard to find good quality pdf's of Halmos's stuff. But here's a nice one for his book on Naive Set Theoryhttps://www.bowwowpress.org/titles/hal60.html

[fast turtle]

I don’t really understand how or why analysis, algebra, etc. were actually created. I know the applications but I’m not exactly sure outside of the physics-math complex how these ideas naturally came about
@gray gazelle sounds like you might be interested in "In Pursuit of the Unknown" by Ian Stewart. Stewart's books are well known to be very well written and interesting, this book in particular talks about 17 equations from 17 different fields of math, and of course he uses each equation as an excuse to speak about the field's history and initial problems that caused that equation to be there.

[quartz pawn]

Anybody taken a class in matrix analysis or have any book recommendations. I have two but I'm just want to know what the meta sources are.

[gray gazelle]

That’s not really what I’m looking for. But this book looks very interesting

If mathematics was a web, I’d want the emphasis on the strings that connected the nodes rather than the nodes themselves.

Alongside how the nodes were constructed

With the nodes being the actual math

Coupled with the chronology of the web

And the intuition behind constructing each string to each node

So a book of everything but for math

Maybe I’ll start working on one as a side project

If I can’t find one

[granite sluice]

what are the nodes?

[gray gazelle]

The actual math rigor. So like if one node was analysis it would consist of strictly analysis.

[hearty steppe]

There’s many books that try to explore nuances of mathematics in a meaningful way and try to gloss over the different areas.

One book I want to start reading soon that tries to do this is “Road to Reality” by Penrose

He is a mathematical physicist

There are also tons of math history books. Some rather large volume ones like World of Mathmatics. Haven’t read that one yet but I think they just explain the history.

But Road to Reality is a huge book. It is a beast

[marble solar]

Yeah, I think you need to have a PhD in math and a MS in Physics to really get through that book

It's intense

[hearty steppe]

You tried to read his book

Lmao

[marble solar]

Yeah one of my profs was reading it

[hearty steppe]

That book is saved for me when my math matures. Same with Wolfram’s A New Kind of Science

There’s a number of reads I want to eventually get to a little later down the road

Idk how helpful some of the history book volumes are like World of Mathematics

[marble solar]

I think those are for history of math scholars

For the most part

[hearty steppe]

Yea also I am considering checking out “How Mathematicians Think” by William Byers

Yea that’s one of my issues with some of those large volume books. I think they are biographies of the mathematicians and a little description of how they develop their insight. Not really so much about teaching the understanding

[brittle latch]

i also have a small list of math related books i wanna get to, a sort of bucket list if you will, but what im thinking is it might be cool to just go in over my head trying to understand some of them and then revisit them later down the line when im more experienced

[hearty steppe]

I mean I rather just go through the books I know Won’t go completely over my head

That’s what I like about books like Godel Escher Bach. You can always revisit it and gain more from it with maturity but if you read it now, it won’t necessarily go over your head.

[brittle latch]

bruh ive been trying to pick up GEB but i keep getting sidetracked

what did you think about that book

[hearty steppe]

I am a big fan of it honestly

Especially great for people interested in mathematics and biology as well as neuroscience, cognitive science, or artificial intelligence

[brittle latch]

the preface mentions it as a kind of analysis of how meaning gets assigned to meaningless objects (ive only really read the preface lol)

tbh im lowkey intimidated but im curious as well

my primary interests are mathematics, and computer science, but ive always been curious about cognitive science as well, the mind is just something to behold

[hearty steppe]

Well when you start learning about the nervous system and then you learn about intelligence being a factor in even plants and other organisms, it gets more interesting

[brittle latch]

im sure, i consider myself very much a baby in that ive only realized how little i know recently lol

[granite sluice]

@gray gazelle I don't think areas are that separate, it's just a convenient breakdown for pedagogy/research focus/historical reasons.

[faint parrot]

@granite sluice Hi

Nice profile pic

[granite sluice]

thx, its my spirit animal

[faint parrot]

Are you into Politics or no?

@granite sluice

[granite sluice]

unfortunately yes

[faint parrot]

Lol

@granite sluice Where are you on a political spectrum?

Also Politics can get toxic tbh

[granite sluice]

Do I have to label myself? Political labels are just shortcuts for stereotyping away nuance.

Politics is toxic af.

Almost as bad as war.

[faint parrot]

@granite sluice lol I'm not referring to labels

[restive raptor]

this is not the place

(for politics)

#chill

[faint parrot]

@restive raptor I know I will stop

[granite sluice]

we can talk over in cchill if you want

[faint parrot]

Sure

or dm

Dm is better tbh

[granite sluice]

lol ok

[long bear]

any books that have heaps of questions involving permutations and combinations?

[granite sluice]

at what level?

[valid moth]

try chuan-chong khee-meng

[sturdy sail]

Is there a good book about projective geometry?

Or even an article, that would be useful as well.

[granite sluice]

at what level?

[valid moth]

try Hartshorne's algebraic geometry

[granite sluice]

https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/759096/book-suggestions-on-projective-geometry

[wooden sparrow]

@granite sluice math stack exchange has book recommendations??

[granite sluice]

math stack exchange has everything

[wooden sparrow]

Nicee

[dire comet]

Does anyone have good books for group theory?

I don't have any background in abstract algebra, but at least I'll go through linear and discrete this year, but even without those it actually seems pretty intuitive and that's something I like about it.

I feel like reviewing individually the most common groups but I can't find a place for it on the internet.

It can be either free stuff like libgen. If you have any book, just know that I'm not willing to spend more than 200 bucks, so feel free to provide me some good stuff, hopefully introductory stuff even if I'm familiar with some stuff already like the axioms

Just to give you an idea about my level, I don't exactly know what's my year since I'm in Canada, not America, but I just finished reviewing basic differential and integral calculus, just so that you have an idea and don't throw me some book where I would always have to google every single word

[sage python]

Artin's Algebra is a good book

It's algebra in general rather than just group theory, does the linear algebra from scratch

[dire comet]

Sounds cool

[sage python]

And is generally I think good at telling you why algebra is interesting

[dire comet]

Thank you very much, I'll look into it

[ionic wren]

can vouch for artin algebra

[open orbit]

does someone have a link for the book Turing Computability THeory and apps.

cant even find it on libgen

[brittle latch]

am i allowed to put pdfs here?

[stray veldt]

rather dont put anything copyrighted here in public

[calm crane]

just put on libgen

people will find it

[flint forge]

If i write a book im 100% uploading to it libgen myself haha

[acoustic pelican]

and add a statement at the beginning requesting people to not pirate the book mirroring the way wikipedia asks for money with statements like "I know most people will ignore it" but please I need the money.

[gray gazelle]

what is libgen xd

[velvet briar]

"If everybody reading my book just donated 2$, I could eat taco bell every day for a week"

@gray gazelle
Book piracy website that has lots of math books

[acoustic pelican]

Most books seem to find their way to libgen anyway so having such a sentimental statement in the beginning will definitely earn you some extra cash.

[brittle latch]

i use z-lib, thats where i get any college textbooks i need or just books im interested int

[weak fossil]

Is there something like libgen for audiobooks?

[flint forge]

Book authors in math

Dont make money of sales

Off*

Just the publishing deal

So fuck em

The publishers

[acoustic pelican]

what? Then I'd definitely put my book on libgen

[flint forge]

Not the authors

Yeah

[acoustic pelican]

well I just feel a bit less guilt for some of the books i've pirated

[wooden sparrow]

@acoustic pelican lol same

[weak fossil]

so Im guessing you havent heard of anything like libgen for audiobooks 😄

[calm crane]

honestly i would just put my book on github

ifffff im ever able to write one

iffff

[weak fossil]

I believe in you 😄

[flint forge]

I want to write obe

One*

[calm crane]

idw write one and like 'oh just another topology textbook'

like if theres nothing to add idk why bother

[flint forge]

I want to write something about computations in AT

Like all the important tools

[acoustic pelican]

I'd just write a textbook in a casual-ish language like that would be the selling point of my book if I ever wrote one

[gray gazelle]

AT := Algebraic Topology? @flint forge

[calm crane]

computation is hard too little examples in books

[flint forge]

Yes

[wooden sparrow]

@calm crane stack exchange?

[calm crane]

probably gg be flagged as homework problem tbh

for me rn computation just takes a lot of reviewing of definitions and possibly helpful theorems

[flint forge]

Computations im AT are fun

Because the most difficulty is in building the tools

Not the computations themselves

[faint parrot]

@flint forge Going to have to structure it well for it be a decent book

[flint forge]

Well it would be a reference

Aimed at grad students

[faint parrot]

Ah

What program are you going use to write it

[flint forge]

I dont think I should write an undergrad text

Latex?

[faint parrot]

Ah

[flint forge]

I think most undergrads I know think my learning stule

Is erratic at best

[faint parrot]

lol

@flint forge Are you still on political twitter?

[flint forge]

Yeah

[faint parrot]

I avoid twitter for political stuff tbh

[flint forge]

I follow a handful of smart people

Mostly across the spectrum

there are some parts of the spectrum without smart people

[faint parrot]

Would you consider yourself more left or right?

[flint forge]

Very left

[faint parrot]

Ah

[flint forge]

Like very left

[faint parrot]

@flint forge So you would be in favor of worker co-ops?

or no

[flint forge]

Depends I think

I think humanity has the potential for syndicalist/anarchistic communism

But I dont think its an option now

[faint parrot]

Yah I think syndicalism is very hard

to establish without having a foreign country invade you

[flint forge]

I am anti-capitalist tho

Yeah I think it would need to be global

To be effective

[gray gazelle]

What is anarchistic communism

[flint forge]

It would require a much deeper form of empathy and unity than people currently have

More or less what it sounds like

[faint parrot]

Yes I would think so

[flint forge]

No state, resources distributed by need

[gray gazelle]

Economies of scale only happen with some centralized body

[flint forge]

Yeah thats an axiom

I disgaree with it

[gray gazelle]

So I don’t really know how that works

How?

[flint forge]

There no a priori reason thats true

[gray gazelle]

I mean is anything in Econ an a priori axiom?

[flint forge]

For example your brain has no centralized control and yet is incredibly efficient

Thats not taken as an axiom in serious economics

[gray gazelle]

Yeah but societal structures aren’t brains

[flint forge]

And its not proven in economics

Unless you have a reference for that result

[gray gazelle]

Nothing is taken as an axiom in serious economics

[flint forge]

Thats false

Tons of things are

[gray gazelle]

Rational agent and what else

[flint forge]

Do you actually know any economics lol

Homogenous goods

Anything the model needs

[faint parrot]

@gray gazelle Are you like referring to authoritarian regimes that were communist?

[flint forge]

No I think hes just anti anarchism

[gray gazelle]

I’m not referring to anything

[flint forge]

Which is a fair gut reaction

But isnt actually backed up by econ

[turbid carbon]

could you move the discussion to other channel?

[gray gazelle]

Lol

Beat me to it

[flint forge]

I was just gonna wait for a book discussion

But sure

[turbid carbon]

thanks

[flint forge]

Lmaoo i thought that was serious for a sec

[faint parrot]

Um not really

lol

[gray gazelle]

Quantum field theory for economics and finance specifically addresses this topic

[faint parrot]

Hm?

[gray gazelle]

/s

[flint forge]

Ive actually wondered if there was a genuine categorification of economics

Theres the stuff baez’s students are doing

But thats game theory

And kinda lame

[faint parrot]

Game theory lol

[gray gazelle]

Wdym by categorization?

[flint forge]

I think the args are all like

Historical

Rather than intrinsic

[faint parrot]

Ultra that is a hard one

[granite sluice]

I think something is confused here -- we appear to need both centralized and decentralized institutions.

[faint parrot]

I don't think there has been any real focus on it

[gray gazelle]

I feel like you can intrinsically justify almost anything though

[flint forge]

Well the def dont for me hahah

After42 is there a book that says that

(I think that buys us a few more messages)

[gray gazelle]

It’s more so an observation

[granite sluice]

There aren't intrinsic justifications because the human world is beyond formal comprehension. It's way too complex.

You can spin all the abstract arguments you want, but whether they work is the final arbiter.

This is also an intrinsic argument.

[flint forge]

Thats very im14andthisisdeep imo

Like

[gray gazelle]

Like people justify capitalism, communism, anarchism, etc. for what seems like valid reasons to them

[flint forge]

There are definitkey formal reasons to consider many systems

[gray gazelle]

A formal system for economics?

Is there a book about this?

That’s another few messages

[flint forge]

Literally every econ book

Lol

[turbid carbon]

if you want to be dicks...

[granite sluice]

I think you know what I'm saying...

[flint forge]

Not really?

Unfortunately many things we mentioned here

Cant be reasonably tested

But that doesnt preclude them from discussion

[granite sluice]

Of course I don't mean that reasoning about the world is impossible. But you can't just transpose formal thinking onto the real world and expect it to mean something. And by 'you' I mean 'we.'

[flint forge]

Obviously it would be a better world if we could test them

[gray gazelle]

We probably should switch channels if we plan on continuing this conversation

[flint forge]

I guess yeah

Feels like no one is trying to actually talk about books

So i dont really care lol

[granite sluice]

This is a conversation about books, because books are articulations of ideologies.

[flint forge]

Lmao

Really every conversation

[gray gazelle]

I think Lorenzo had a point with the chaos of it all

[flint forge]

Could be written in a book

[granite sluice]

We're all just puppets of some dead economist -- some dead economoist

[flint forge]

Im only a puppet of living economists

[granite sluice]

My point is just that in a formal system you can control and measure all the variables.

They're closed systems. We can define a game, prove things about games, or whatever.

[gray gazelle]

I think there are formal systems that account for uncertainty?

Maybe I’m thinking of something else

[granite sluice]

But as soon as we start reasoning about the world, we take a (very small) finite set of abstractions and start imagining their interaction.

And we may be totally blind to something that will appear as soon as it plays out inreality.

(Sure there are formal systems that account for uncertainty, but certain uncertainties , or certain uncertain uncertainties...)

[faint parrot]

Hm?

Ultraproduct wdym?

[granite sluice]

No but applied math works -- at least if you mean physics and ECE and stuff -- because we've luckily found models that are amazing good.

[gray gazelle]

He’s saying physics is a failure

[faint parrot]

[gray gazelle]

The day physics can be reductionist is the day it’s a success

[granite sluice]

But ultimately our standard for the success of these models is empirical.

[faint parrot]

Is he talking about QM?

lol

[granite sluice]

Like, noise isn't actually iid gaussian. But building error correcting codes for that models seems to do really well.

[gray gazelle]

Many body problem, gravitational interactions between stellar objects, etc

For the N>= 3 case on the latter

[granite sluice]

All I'm saying is that this is why historical examples are important. There's a lot you can learn by studying history and trying to understand the influence of different things.

[gray gazelle]

I think the transition between where we are now to where we want to be is the most important factor in success of the new system

Not the actual system

[granite sluice]

You can't improve society by pure reason. You can easily make things worse if you ignore experience.

Both matter. What's the difference between those states anyway.

[gray gazelle]

I meant in the context of merging from, as an example, capitalism to syndicate anarchism

[wooden sparrow]

@gray gazelle bro also the technology and capital needed for new research in physics is huge. Like countries need to collaborate to make a particle accelerator...

[gray gazelle]

Nothing in theory ever works as intended

That’s probably the crux of your argument

[granite sluice]

Sure, syndicate anarchism (in the style of Rocker) also sounds like a stable point. But you can think of easy ways for it to fall apart.

It's not at all clear to me that it is actually stable. It abstract a few things about a highly complicated world into a narrative that sounds like it could be stable.

I remember having an interesting argument about Rocker's book at some point, let me see if I can find some of the arguments.

Nothing in theory ever works as intended
@gray gazelle Not literally nothing, if the models are sufficiently good, but yeah basically.

[gray gazelle]

I’m unsure of any macro model that’s worked as intended

[wooden sparrow]

That's why math has theorems, not theories

[gray gazelle]

Take any global institution

[steel viper]

its pretty easy to think of ways for most societal systems to fall apart

tbh

[wooden sparrow]

Lol max is fully against capitalism

[steel viper]

like, say, mass revolt by the working class due to the falling rate of profit : )

[granite sluice]

yeah, but we have an insanely complicated system of checks and balances

which has evolved over over a century to address problems in the abstract model

[flint forge]

This is not news tho

[steel viper]

hm

im a little confused

[flint forge]

If you read any modern anti-capitalist

They account for that

Is your point that anyone things abstract models are perfect?

I dont think thats true

[gray gazelle]

I have not so how do they suggest we transition from here to a different system?

[steel viper]

like "checks and balances" is a specifically american framework of government, not something tied inherently to an economic system like capitalism

[flint forge]

It varies greatly

Some support/predict revolution

[gray gazelle]

U have any book recommendations?

[flint forge]

Uh marx obviously for background

[granite sluice]

@steel viper I meant it more in the sense that there's a complex interaction between government regulation , cultural norms and industrial economy

[wooden sparrow]

I don't get how capitalism is celebrated as the fuel for innovation...
You can have a socialist govt, pay taxes and use it to do unbiased research too.. right?

[faint parrot]

@steel viper Read the Federalist Papers for more info on that

[steel viper]

well the post napoleonic european division of power was also a checks and balances scenario but uh

that

didnt turn out very well

[flint forge]

Mike davis i think is the name of another i like

Id have to doublecheck that

[steel viper]

i know about the federalist papers lol

[flint forge]

And I like zizek but hes controversial

[granite sluice]

zizek is a great comedian and has some nice insights

[faint parrot]

@steel viper Which ones have you read?

[steel viper]

no 10

also 51

[faint parrot]

nice

[flint forge]

I think zizek understands the incrediblt cognitive dissonance in contemporary society

Better than almost anyone

In terms of politicoeconomics anyway

[gray gazelle]

I’d be interested in something that critiques the status quo of the industrial revolution being due to capitalism

[steel viper]

max read baudrillard

[flint forge]

I think he extrapolates too far socially

Any suggestions

[steel viper]

t r u s t m e

[flint forge]

@steel viper

[steel viper]

ummmm

maybe

the gulf war did not take place

i think its a decent intro cuz its not as abstract as some of his other work and its also short

also the system of objects is great

hold up let me send an excerpt

[faint parrot]

@steel viper Hamilton's one is also good

[flint forge]

Hamilton wrote like 50

Idk sloth

[granite sluice]

@steel viper lmao this is amazing.

[flint forge]

Thats a little

[steel viper]

baudrillard?

[flint forge]

Too abstract for my tastes

[steel viper]

hes

its not that abstract its cool

its very specific

[flint forge]

I like zizek because he applies it

Sorry

Maybe thats not the right word

[steel viper]

hes talking about how the interior design and arrangement of a house/space reflects the societal conditions

that it originated in

[faint parrot]

;p

[flint forge]

Yeah I feel like thats interesting but not that interesting to me

I get the purpose

[granite sluice]

the purpose is obviously humor...

[flint forge]

Its not

[granite sluice]

I know that the author doesn't think it's humor, but it is

[gray gazelle]

Horseshoe theory wins once again

[steel viper]

its witty

but its not ironic

[granite sluice]

It's basicalyl what Zizek says, roughly speaking, 'you need to have an ideological lense to view the world through'

[faint parrot]

Lol

[steel viper]

huh

[granite sluice]

sure, you can have many that you learn to put on like glasses

[steel viper]

that is not baudrillard

[granite sluice]

this particular person has chosen to run harrdddd with one

[steel viper]

you need to read him

that is not at all baudrillard

[faint parrot]

@steel viper Dm me the link

[flint forge]

Thats not even really zizek

[steel viper]

baudrillard is a post structuralist, he was trying to write and analyze the conditions and arrangement of systems of objects in postmodern society

[gray gazelle]

Wow so u guys actually read

[faint parrot]

Yes

[steel viper]

to see how it reflected changing cultural, ideological, spiritual trends

[faint parrot]

lol

[steel viper]

etc

[gray gazelle]

I thought we were all just joking about that

[steel viper]

https://monoskop.org/images/2/28/Baudrillard_Jean_The_system_of_objects_1996.pdf

[faint parrot]

@steel viper Are you left of the political spectrum?

[steel viper]

sure

[gray gazelle]

[faint parrot]

Ah okay

[gray gazelle]

Ok so what is a post structuralist

And can they only analyze post modern society

[faint parrot]

@steel viper Did you read manufacturing consent by Chomsky

[granite sluice]

Sloth the political spectrum is a patriarchal construction; this is obvious from its resemblance to a phallus.

[steel viper]

structuralism is a theory of linguistics that says words/linguistic information only gains meaning by its relationship to other words

[granite sluice]

A true post-structuralist feminist would accept only a political circle.

[steel viper]

that expanded to literature, philosophy, art, etc

[flint forge]

Youre discrediting all of your earlier takes rn lol

🤡

[steel viper]

post-structuralists is basically just a vague label for like

people who were influenced by structuralism but didnt identify with it

and developed their ideas in dialog/response to it

[faint parrot]

@flint forge Who are you referring to?lol

[gray gazelle]

So wouldn’t any sort of poststructuralism require like a humanitarian text? Which postmodern society lacks?

[flint forge]

Lorenzo

[granite sluice]

lol @flint forge if you can't joke about ideology you are truly in its grip

[gray gazelle]

Or can u sort of do it about anything in postmodern society

[steel viper]

@granite sluice idk why ur acting like its weird to talk about and analyze the structure of a home as a reflection of a cultural phase

[flint forge]

If you intend to joke it should be a funny one :/

[steel viper]

it makes a lot of sense lol

@gray gazelle idk what you mean by a humanitarian text, i dont think theres anything particularly pro or anti-humanitarian about most postmodernists

[granite sluice]

making sense != being true, unlike math

[flint forge]

Lmao

Like i said

Im14andthisisdeep

[granite sluice]

but its completely true dude

[gray gazelle]

I meant like a focal point in society. Our society doesn’t really have any predominant literature or culture.

[flint forge]

No it just makes sense

[granite sluice]

no, this one is true.

[steel viper]

structuralism doesnt really have anything to do with any individual text or whatever

like the original theory is something along the lines of

[granite sluice]

there's plenty of evidence for it

[steel viper]

lets say i point to this image and make the sound "tree"

how do you know i am referring to a tree here? couldnt i also be referring ot the bark? the leaves? a specific kind of tree? nature as a whole?

the idea is that the word "tree" only gains meaning by different from other words like "leaves," "bark," "nature," "green"

[faint parrot]

@steel viper Hmm

[steel viper]

language is not the individual words and their positive content, it is a series of distinctions between words

[faint parrot]

Lol you got alot of philosophy to break lol

[gray gazelle]

So is structuralism the study of linguistics

[steel viper]

it originated there

but a lot of artists, writers, and philosophers were influenced by it

[gray gazelle]

Ok and now it spread out over pretty much culture

[faint parrot]

Sloth are you into philosophy?

[granite sluice]

p sure I don't need to tell a neural net what bark is to get it to reliably identify trees.

[flint forge]

Thats false actually

[steel viper]

??

[flint forge]

Neural networks work exactly this way

If you only train one with positive distinction

It wont work

You need to tell it what is not a tree

As well

[granite sluice]

sure, that's true

[steel viper]

machine learning has been described as "a structuralist discipline" before

[gray gazelle]

What’s the point though

[granite sluice]

if there's only one class there's no learning problem

[faint parrot]

I thought maybe you might be interest this branch of philosophy

Sloth lol

[steel viper]

also that doesnt make sense bc the original theory is about communication between humans, not like the inherent nature of a tree

pls read semiotics

[granite sluice]

but the other classes can be completely unrelated.

[flint forge]

Why do people who dont read anything about an entire slice of contemporary philosophy think they can just dismiss it without engaging

By oversimplyifying it

[gray gazelle]

Like why learn about post structuralism?

[steel viper]

for fun and because its interesting

and occasionally because it can help you think about and engage with the world

[flint forge]

Why learn algebraic topology

[steel viper]

in a more mature way

but mostly cuz its cool

[faint parrot]

Don't know tbh

I'm lazy

[gray gazelle]

Ok I’ll check it out

[faint parrot]

Which keeps me from reading Hume

[gray gazelle]

Is that brauillrd dude or whatever a post structuralist?

[faint parrot]

and a bunch of other works

[flint forge]

There are far too many people so corrupted by capitalism that they think any knowledge that does not increase their value to capital is not worth doing

[granite sluice]

lmao

[steel viper]

baudrillard is a post structuralist yeah

[granite sluice]

if you only have a hammer...

[steel viper]

post structuralism is kind of a fuzzy category

[flint forge]

Thats not a joke

[steel viper]

it doesnt really describe a specific concept or philosophy/ideology but more so like

a bunch of people who were influenced by and developed their ideas in response to structuralism

kind of like how postmodernism isnt really a unified ideology but is more like a response to modern philosophy

[flint forge]

Postmodern is unified tho. Its the belief that thomas pynchon is hot

[gray gazelle]

Is there a list of canons though?

[faint parrot]

[steel viper]

if you want a good introduction to structuralism i would start from the linguistic perspective

[faint parrot]

Thanks

Sloth

[steel viper]

try finding good sources on saussure

[faint parrot]

I will add it to my list

[steel viper]

and benveniste

[gray gazelle]

Ok so would you say Foucault is a structuralist?

[faint parrot]

I have a bunch of philosophy books I still need to read

[gray gazelle]

I’m trying to find boundaries here

[faint parrot]

[steel viper]

yeah

foucault is a structuralist/poststructuralist

[gray gazelle]

So I have read structuralism

Major W

[faint parrot]

@gray gazelle You don't have to

but

A good one

tbh

[gray gazelle]

I never thought of philosophy outside of the main schools

[steel viper]

i know theres someone on here who was very firmly like

"continental philosophy sucks its not helpful!"

[faint parrot]

lol

I guess

[gray gazelle]

So when I read like Hume or Kant, the discernment in subtlety only extends to like empirical vs a priori

[steel viper]

kind of a dumb take because like

analytic philosophy too

[faint parrot]

Hm?

Hot take Sloth

[steel viper]

to me all philo is mostly an intellectual game

like math : )

[faint parrot]

lol

@steel viper What major are you?

[steel viper]

none right now

[flint forge]

Sloth is a baby

[steel viper]

im not in college yet

max dont bully me

[faint parrot]

Me too

lol

[flint forge]

I will bully you

[faint parrot]

I won't bully you yet

[steel viper]

[faint parrot]

yetttttt

[flint forge]

Until you come to uchicago

[exotic sluice]

i need help xD

[flint forge]

And take my role as heir to the theone

Throne*

[steel viper]

mayhaps

[flint forge]

Or dont

Uchicago kinda sux

[faint parrot]

Gottem

[steel viper]

lol

[dense pewter]

what major university doesn't suck

also hi everyone

[steel viper]

hello buncho

[faint parrot]

@steel viper Nice use of Mio emote

[steel viper]

we are discussing philosophy

[gray gazelle]

So I’ve read Foucault and probably some other structuralists. But what difference would it make if I identified their ideals as structuralism or not? Like does it make relationships to society more evident?

[steel viper]

but bad

[flint forge]

Some unis have been doing a lot better in the pandemic than other imo

And its shown like

[dense pewter]

oh no haha

[flint forge]

The true inner culture

[steel viper]

@gray gazelle i dont think it matters that much from a purely intellectual perspective

[flint forge]

Imo

[faint parrot]

@steel viper IF you want to https://discord.gg/MCXa7Ft

[steel viper]

but i think understanding how their ideas emerged historically

[dense pewter]

also I feel like I haven't seen you around in a while sloth, hope things are going well

[steel viper]

and the context they came about in

is valuable

and also makes them easier to understand and parse haha

[gray gazelle]

Thank u

[steel viper]

@dense pewter yeah i have been doing not that much math lately but

im getting back into it :D

have been doing some reading

and writing

[flint forge]

What about mystery video games

Any of that

Lately

[steel viper]

i can do that too soon!! im fixing my sleep schedule

[dense pewter]

nice! balance is good. I'm a big advocate of "follow your nose" in terms of like what you feel interest in doing

[steel viper]

yeah

[flint forge]

Keep encouraging that and ill fall down the mathphys rabbit hole buncho

[steel viper]

oh i discovered and read my new favorite book ever

in the dream house by carmen maria machado

[flint forge]

Is it all 29 halo books

[steel viper]

it is not

it is a very good memoir about a lesbian woman in an abusive relationship

(sorry for low quality pic)

[gray gazelle]

I’ve been reading a lot of abstract fiction

Not sure how you would categorize the likes of Calvino and Borges

Magical realism

[steel viper]

uhhh i guess magical realism??

[dapper root]

Hi sloth

[steel viper]

borges seems cool

[gray gazelle]

That’s a category?

[steel viper]

i wanna get into more of his work

hi magician : )

[flint forge]

I swear to god i will never remember the rational root theorem

Ive read it like 5 times

[steel viper]

there are roots and some of them are rational

[flint forge]

And i always forget which one divides what

[dense pewter]

max just think of like

x - a in your head

that clearly has one root and it's a/1 not 1/a

[flint forge]

Oh

Fuck

Buncho

Wanna be my gre tutor

Ill pay you 4 schmeckles

(Conversion is about .75USD)

[dense pewter]

but you're not allowed to use that fact because I copyrighted it

every time you think about that

[flint forge]

Lmao

[dense pewter]

you owe me royalties

[flint forge]

That would be an interesting aspect of a like

[faint parrot]

gottem

[flint forge]

Late stage cap novel

Where ideas are literally intellectual property

[steel viper]

literally living rent free

[flint forge]

Im sure its been done

[faint parrot]

ip laws

lpll

[steel viper]

i wonder if this is real of if baudrillard is paraphrasing

[flint forge]

Gre prep book has exactly 1 page on polynomials

I wish dummit and foote did that

[steel viper]

because it sounds like a hellscape nightmare

[wooden sparrow]

I got to know today that stack exchange has chatrooms

[faint parrot]

@wooden sparrow True

lol

[wooden sparrow]

But they're very inactive when I saw them

[gray gazelle]

Wait is GRE still mandatory?

[faint parrot]

@steel viper You're not in college yet?

lol

[steel viper]

no

that was a very delayed reaction to max's comment

[gray gazelle]

I thought you didn’t Have to take it this year

[flint forge]

Like i said

Hes a baby

Small

Weak

[faint parrot]

Ah

[steel viper]

[flint forge]

Easily thrown

[steel viper]

no one throws me smh

[flint forge]

Have you ever like

Thought about

And okay

[calm crane]

sloth come to my place

and uh

[flint forge]

Indont want to get screnshotted here

[calm crane]

ill get someone

[flint forge]

Have you ever thought about how easy it would be

[steel viper]

fear

[faint parrot]

Creepy

[flint forge]

To punt a baby

[faint parrot]

no

max

[flint forge]

Like a football

[gray gazelle]

no

[flint forge]

Oh

Just me then

[faint parrot]

[flint forge]

Now u all have tho

So

[dense pewter]

max you're also practically a baby

[steel viper]

why would you punt a baby

[flint forge]

Im much heavier

[faint parrot]

This chat gets weird alot

[flint forge]

I woulsnt

[steel viper]

what have they done to incur your wrath

[gray gazelle]

Bunch of babies in this chat

[dense pewter]

buncho babies

[flint forge]

I would not punt a baby

[gray gazelle]

I am a grown 20 year old

[flint forge]

But

[steel viper]

wait are you implying you want to punt me

fear

[flint forge]

I could

[faint parrot]

@steel viper Depends on how skinny you are and your weight

[steel viper]

not that skinny

but fairly skinny

im 5'9 and like 130 Ibs

[faint parrot]

lol

[gray gazelle]

That’s really skinny

[steel viper]

its not smh

thats like

[faint parrot]

Yah

[steel viper]

normal BMI i think

[faint parrot]

I'm 18

and I weigh more than you

180

[gray gazelle]

Very Low end of BMI

[faint parrot]

pounds

[steel viper]

[gray gazelle]

How tall r u though?

[steel viper]

im very used to being underweight

it was a little strange

[flint forge]

Sloth

Thats why

U gotta climb

Build those myscles

[steel viper]

bitch where

[flint forge]

Eat 4900cal a day

[steel viper]

gyms arent open here

[faint parrot]

lol

[gray gazelle]

Then get fat and build muscle later

[flint forge]

Find an abandoned construction pron

Proj

Just climb that bad boy

[steel viper]

my hopes and dreams

[gray gazelle]

😦

[flint forge]

Whoever invented sec and csc can suck it

[limpid gazelle]

oof

[flint forge]

Why do we need different names for multiplicative inverses

[faint parrot]

lol

[flint forge]

No other functions do that

[steel viper]

sailors

or something

[faint parrot]

This fall is going to be interesting as my first year at uni

[steel viper]

yikes

[gray gazelle]

yikes

[steel viper]

im so glad i dont have to do uni during the pandemic

it sounds awful

[sinful pewter]

bc some dumb dumb wrote sin^-1

[flint forge]

Lmao

[steel viper]

well

idk

i might

[gray gazelle]

so glad I’m doing grad school during the pandemic

[flint forge]

I have to apply to grad school during pandemic

Kill me

[steel viper]

hopefully the pandemic will be over in 2 years

please god

[faint parrot]

lol

[gray gazelle]

the 4 stages of mankind in this chat

[steel viper]

i hope it at least partially is by my senior year

so i can take literally the only class in hs i want to take

[faint parrot]

@steel viper Russia is developing a vaccine

[gray gazelle]

pre college, college, applying to grad school, grad school

[dense pewter]

I'm the 5th stage

professor

[steel viper]

dead?

[dense pewter]

haahahaha

[flint forge]

Lmfaoooo

[steel viper]

oh