career-advice

[marsh wind]

there are also some very prominent big funding in non US, ie https://techcrunch.com/2022/01/25/tunisian-enterprise-ai-startup-instadeep-raises-100m-from-alpha-biontech-google/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAABE-YgcClcgh0in1kYLqdrhM_dVYotkWE8PzQTVZUzYAZLGwvMVCvSPL81l9etSxo9ZVdNF8KpdtCBDTDY-WZv_J3ktVjGDreYicx0gzotPSR_JkOVWIddMFRagZUqtZvChUNGEpqZPvKtXJpKKU26r8tP1K2pkmnd4oxu2WWGSq

[unreal willow]

Do you think with programming skills (in Germany) it's a good idea to work for a temporary employment agency for one year, if you will move in one year?
Just got the recommendation in a career advice talk.

[honest pivot]

IBM is notorious for being bad to work for. (Not saying this changes anything about the surrounding conversation)

How are salaries in Denmark, by the way? Copenhagen is a very expensive city.

[vapid jay]

Are you working?

[unreal willow]

Yes, I do.
But not sure whether you asked me or Aurendil.

[rare sand]

nowhere near as good as in the US, but quite generous compared to other careers in Denmark. An experienced engineer could probably make €80-100K a year easily, maybe up to €120K, but without going into consulting, some sort of specialization, or leadership roles it will be hard to go a lot higher than that. At least that's my impression.

but there's a lot of stuff that factors into that math. Is Copenhagen a "very expensive city" when we compare it to other places? It depends. Our taxes are high for a reason.

They pay for stuff. That stuff ultimately often ends up costing you money in other places.

what really matter at the end of the day is - how much money do you have left after you've paid all your expenses? And is that amount sufficient to lead a fulfilling life where you and your family are taken care of, and you don't worry about your economy all the time?

I would say the answer to that is a resounding "yes absolutely".

most people don't buy a house smack downtown Copenhagen either, and the surrounding suburbs are far more affordable and very well connected with constant public transport departures connecting to anything you want to visit.

[fiery heron]

Contract or self employed?

[honest pivot]

What's the rental market like?

[fiery heron]

For cars, homes or people

[honest pivot]

Places to live in/around Copenhagen

[near ocean]

according to numbeo rent prices are 34% lower than London

[honest pivot]

Hmm

[fiery heron]

rent prices here in the village/town increased by 33.3%

[gritty current]

ask me some beginner python questions

[vapid jay]

@gritty current how would you create a list?

[near ocean]

this isnt the channel for this, try #python-discussion

[vapid jay]

😂

[gilded valley]

but ultimately, america is literally the best work place for most people if you're an average skilled worker, let alone an exceptional one.
I do not think this is remotely clear cut. I think Switzerland is probably better by pretty much any metric you can find

I think it's incredibly easy to make the argument that countries with good public services (Scandinavia etc) are better for social reasons

and accurately weighing up things like access to holiday pay and the cultural approach to work is very difficult

[gilded valley]

First of all, comparing median salaries. Then the USA isn't head and shoulders better* off than the two EU countries I thought to look at. In the USA healthcare costs something like $2500 - $5,000 after employer contributions, plus you typically get a lot less PTO or no. Taxes are lower in the US. So looking purely at remuneration/hr the US is at best slightly ahead of Europe. The salary distributions in Europe seem to be a bit tighter than in the US, so higher salaries are more attainable there, but definitionally the majority of workers aren't on exceptional salaries.

https://www.payscale.com/research/DE/Job=Software_Developer/Salary Denmark median = 56k usd/y
https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Developer/Salary USA median=73k usd/y
https://www.payscale.com/research/DK/Job=Software_Developer/Salary Germany median=68k usd/y
https://www.payscale.com/research/CH/Job=Software_Developer/Salary Switzerland median=89k usd/y
* e: messed up maths in first conversion, more accurate reflection of the salary differences

if godlygeek can provide another set of comparable numbers for different countries I'm happy enough to use those

the cost of living in the places in the USA that are offering those high-end salaries are also very not cool

you have more chances to venture on your own, you don't even have to be bright, and trust me on this, even not very smart people are able to make six figures there.
This just seems to be the salary point restated

you are taxed at lower rates, more income, skilled people like recursive can go there, make a bit more money than they'd have made in europe, then maybe in 20 years they can go back to europe and take a more "chill" job or even retire.
Comparing tax wedges between countries is difficult, but the US isn't actually that much better off than often gets made out. It definitely is better though. OECD or the World Bank have good data on this if you want to compare.

[gilded valley]

you also completely miss points about the fact that you're not living in the USA in isolation. If you have a family, then the quality of life argument becomes much more relevant - if your partner is in a different field, or if you have kids and want better schooling, or even if you just care about things like road safety a lot, then the comparison between different countries becomes much much more complicated

The USA has one of the most progressive tax systems in the world
https://wid.world/document/technical-appendix-to-why-is-europe-more-equal-than-the-united-states-world-inequality-lab-wp-2020-19/#page=80

but ultimately, america is literally the best work place for most people if you're an average skilled worker, let alone an exceptional one.
This is what I'm contesting - I think for average people this isn't true

comparing just the effective tax rates, the US's is 28%, DK's is 34.5, NOR's is 35.5
https://data.oecd.org/tax/tax-wedge.htm

for most kids who just graduated college like me, they'd do a lot for better career.
I'm not convinced by that - I think it heavily depends on the country. I think it's clear that a Lithuanian would be better off going to the US than sticking in Lithuania

comparing the tax brackets like that is difficult because you need to understand the idiosyncrasies of the different systems

I have no idea exactly what tax mechanisms Denmark uses, and the US varies income tax on a state by state basis

the question is where the Lithuanian should go, and I think I could make a good argument for Denmark, Norway, Ireland, or the US

pretty much all countries use progressive taxes - but it's never as simple as plugging your income into one tax bracket and getting a tax rate out

sure - at this point we might be talking at cross purposes - but I really think the economic argument isn't remotely clear cut for the average person. I think you have to be significantly more motivated and driven for the economics to tip cleanly in the favour of the USA

but the salaries that are better in the US are the high-end salaries. They're much closer at the mid to low levels

[gilded valley]

I already linked the data that makes this point

if you disagree, you need something more than anecdotal data for this to track

berlin vs NYC have near incomparable costs of living - Frankfurt is a better comparison there

[frosty sail]

So comparing median/mean statistics of the US overall to a single EU country, particularly smaller & richer ones like Switzerland or Denmark, isn’t really a sensible comparison

[gilded valley]

https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/Germany/
https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/New-York-City/

NYC vs Frankfurt is clear cut in NYC's favour - pretty much double the gross salary for the median

but that's still not a super fair comparison. If you're comparing the extremes, then it's really Zurich vs NYC

[frosty sail]

Comparing just California, New York, to just UK or Germany would be more fair

[gilded valley]

https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/Switzerland/ Switzerland is pretty much the same as NYC

[frosty sail]

But whole USA stats should be compared against whole EU, including south and Eastern Europe nations

[gilded valley]

hahahaha - Switzerland has pretty much 0 taxes

sure - but NYC vs Frankfurt isn't a great comparison

sure - Frankfurt to Houston is a good comparison

oh wait - my reading abilities have failed me. That's not frankfurt, that's just Germany. And Germany -> Texas isn't a great comparison

[shadow moss]

It’s pretty rare for non American to be making these eye watering salaries.

[frosty sail]

I think it is clear from those Levels distributions that the incomes in software in the USA are much broader than those distributions in the EU- long tail of extremely high paid workers

Most average workers are probably experiencing a similar quality of life tho

[shadow moss]

Yea, few programmers rotate through FAANG

[frosty sail]

It is rare for Americans to be seeing such eye-watering numbers as well

[gilded valley]

comparing means from glassdoor, Frankfurt is 67kusd vs 87k usd in Houston
https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/frankfurt-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,9_IM1021_KO10,27.htm
https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/houston-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,7_IM394_KO8,25.htm

but this comparison isn't great - because US salaries tend to have a fatter tail which distorts the mean
I can't find any data with clear cut medians on a city vs city basis

[shadow moss]

It can be but my caution is a ton of people don’t make it and end up wrecks on the side of the road. Always be on lookout for survivorship bias. Also, you have no idea about extra costs because of those low taxes like having to drive a car everywhere.

[gilded valley]

Frankfurt isn't the capital - it's just the biggest financial centre in Germany

Frankfurt vs Houston seems like an apt comparison to me - they're both cities seeing a lot of tech growth

glassdoor/levels.fyi/payscale are just sites that give probably the best bet at a like-for-like salary comparison (within themselves)
I doubt any one of them is all that great

it depends on the contributors, what I mean is that an american SWE is more likely to use levels.fyi than german one, so bigger sample size.
Bigger sample size, yes, but the same methodology probably means that it's better comparing within levels.fyi than it is comparing to any other thing. The fact that you have 20,000 salaries from Houston and only 5,000 from Frankfurt doesn't mean the two are incomparable

[frosty sail]

As a quick base line check the ratio of these two numbers is almost the same as the ratio of their metro area populations, so that makes sense

[vapid jay]

Curious about being a Django developer. What would the pre-requisites be?

Just learn a good level of python and rapid deployment of Django apps?

[frosty sail]

Can’t hurt. Depends what seniority level you’re trying to aim for. If entry level, you can often get away with no prior experience but a demonstrated ability to learn new things quickly.

If you’re joining a Django focused senior role, they will obviously be expecting professional Django experience. Or something very similar, like working in a large flask or Ruby on Rails project

[vapid jay]

Thanks. What would demonstrate my ability to learn new things quickly?

True. Not sure what to focus on. Like I don’t need to learn any libraries right

[frosty sail]

Prior experiences. Work, school, or personal projects. Bring up in the interview how you self-taught yourself or how you put yourself with team members you knew you could learn from

[vapid jay]

I have created a todo app and even smaller apps that has CRUD features. I’m improving every time I deploy a new one.

It’s easy to use Django tbh. I thin learning intermediate python or higher is harder

Often the errors in Django is harder and confusing for me than Python due to support

I am curious about a roadmap

[frosty sail]

In my experience, at least in the east coast USA job market, there’s quite a lot of job openings looking specifically for Django experience. It’s got enough depth and many companies rely on it so heavily it’s kind of it’s own separate requirement from just knowing Python

[vapid jay]

It’s weird with Django though I don’t need Python knowledge technically

[frosty sail]

I wouldn’t agree with that lol

[vapid jay]

It’s just a series of steps following a model.

I am going to try do more complex and bigger projects just on Django and see what I can do from there.

Still learning python on the side.

Would that make me employable?

Ok will do. I will network more

Nope

Nope, I don’t hate maths.

[frosty sail]

So like Django is a python framework for building websites. You need to know Python quite well to make an effective website from Django. Whether some simple personal projects in Django is enough to make you a competitive applicant really depends on the job market you’re looking to get into. Applying to lots of jobs and asking for feedback if you get rejected could help you get more specific insight into what the employers you want to work for are looking for.

[vapid jay]

Thank you for advice. I start applying in couple of months but I guess best practice is to continuously deploy applications. It’s what Django is used for really from what I learnt.

Yeah I’m always asking questions here. It’s a great community here.

[vagrant flare]

is there a lot of math in comp sci degrees?

[vapid jay]

Yes

[frosty sail]

I’ll be honest I’m not really sure if you’re using those words in the same way I normally understand them. AFAIK Continuous deployment is a concept in DevOps that has no relation to Django.

[vagrant flare]

okay

[vapid jay]

Deployment is running an application up on to heroku and for anyone to see. That’s the definition I’m using. Don’t know about other instances of the word.

[vagrant flare]

hows a bachelors in compsci? is it the same as software eng or

[vapid jay]

So when I’m saying continuously deploy, I’m saying regularly everyday just deploy something. Habit forming

Because speed matters in Django from what I gathered

[vagrant flare]

im just in hs, idk much about local market and stuff

[frosty sail]

Ah okay. Yeah that’s good experience of course. Keeping on a habit of learning new things. Doesn’t really have anything to do with Django specifically tho. Development and Deployment speed matters in all software

[vapid jay]

Thanks man! Will do 🙂

[vagrant flare]

right thanks

[frosty sail]

You can get into software engineering pretty easily from almost any STEM degree, FYI. But computer science is the most direct path, naturally

I also know tons of people who got into software/tech from humanities degrees. I’d advise picking a college degree based more on what you think you’ll enjoy and be good at than trying to aim at some long term future goal. Mostly because you’ll be a different person in 4+ years when you’re done with college and looking for jobs, and if you force yourself into a degree you don’t like you’re gonna be miserable

[vagrant flare]

i agree with that, im interested in compsci tho.. not sure about the math part

i do math in hs too so is it the same level or

[frosty sail]

College math isn’t so scary. If you have an inclination towards programming you’ll probably find it more interesting than HS math

[vagrant flare]

🤞

[frosty sail]

Oof I’m not so old lol

Maybe. I think we can probably find real stats on that. I’m in such a specific field I can’t really comment on overall trends from my personal experience, everyone I work with has PhDs.

Or quit their PhD cus they’re too damn smart for their own good and got bored

Yeah- intersection of DS, biology, chemistry

[vagrant flare]

feels nice to hear this, coz i have an option a bit expensive tho

[brittle thorn]

The interesting stuff occur in the intersection of disciplines like biochemistry, bioinformatics, computational chemistry etc

[brittle thorn]

Was in an MS program and got bored lol

[frosty sail]

Clearly too smart for your own good , then

[brittle thorn]

I have a Published Paper in a Local Physics Journal that used Python so maybe

[brittle thorn]

I got admitted to an MBA program and got bored too...tried IRL startups

[frosty sail]

So what is a “local physics journal”? I’ve seen this term come up a few times in this channel in the last week but never heard it before. @brittle thorn

[shadow moss]

Where do you see that? I work a ton on East coast companies and never saw Django.

Vast majority are c#, Java or Node

[brittle thorn]

This one lol

Its a country specific Physics Publication

[frosty sail]

Maybe b/c I’ve got it on my LinkedIn, but I get recruiters looking for Django professionals specifically in pharma and fintech, Boston and NYC. Like constantly. Probably average one Django-specific recruiting attempt every two or three days

[frosty sail]

Oh okay nice. So by local you just mean that it’s a smaller audience than like the royal society or APS

[sweet parcel]

I want to be a software engineer any advice where to start?

[brittle thorn]

This is true ...attend meetups and network

[frosty sail]

Oh yeah and crypto. So many crypto startups seem to be using Django stacks

[brittle thorn]

Yeah a local Royal Society I am an inactive member of the local equivalent

[frosty sail]

Start learning to code. Search online for tutorials or enroll in classes in your school or college.

[shadow moss]

I’ve worked in FinTech with companies in those cities, never got near Django

[brittle thorn]

Lol gender studies true in that case .. visual art is more useful and you can still work in IT as a graphics designer...many paths to IT

[sweet parcel]

I know html, css and python should I also learn C++ or C##

[brittle thorn]

I cant deny lol

[frosty sail]

Funny. Well goes to show there’s room in the market for everyone

[shadow moss]

My point is compared to Java, C#, or Node, it’s tiny.

[frosty sail]

Doesn’t feel tiny on my LinkedIn dms lol

But, that’s just me. I don’t know any real stats on the matter

[gilded valley]

are you a software dev?

[potent dragon]

hey guys, i am a python developer intern in a startup. i mostly got testing tasks there. i got this job after a long time as my academics were low. i am really confused what i am doing with my life. i know it might sound stupid but i really want advise at this point. i am not able to make decision like should i quit my job, programming career or try something else. or should i upskill myself in some technology and it is normal what is going on with me

[frosty sail]

I’ve worked on a lot of things. Right now I’m helping a company to kill plants good and dead with as little side effects as possible. Pharmaceuticals but with the opposite intended effect.

I’ve done research and DS work in a ton of fields tho. Renewable energy, pharmaceuticals, NLP in multiple industries.

[gilded valley]

If you've got experience in DS, then there's a good chance there's recruiters asking for python from the data engineering perspective
purely because Python is good glue and there's a global dearth of data engineers

[frosty sail]

yeah exactly

Django is an excellent base for complex internal data engineering tooling. In house pipelines, dashboards, managing secure data access, integration with other tools. High reliability and ease of development. Django story for all that is very strong

Sure just DM me.

[gilded valley]

That seems true enough - but is Django really the big ask? If you've got seomething like that, then the Django at least is a trivial skill to acquire vs the cloud-stuff with terraform, or the actual data processing skills with dbt or whatever

[brittle thorn]

Maybe it depends on the region

[frosty sail]

Usually the job descriptions want those three things yes. Some Django, some devops, some data engineering. If you’ve got all three, there is a ton of demand right now

Like any realistic recruiting campaign, they would probably be happy to compromise on someone missing or being weak on 1/3 of the requirements. But I do often see Django as a top-level concern on the job descriptions

[gilded valley]

interesting - I don't think I've ever really seen Django on datay fintech job postings
but we do use it at my company I think
although it could be flask - the web part of that project is incredibly small

[frosty sail]

Again, I’m probably biased because I haven’t actively looked in years. I have it as a skill on my linkedin, and recruiters find that on their keyword searches so that’s what I see

[gilded valley]

I'm pretty damn confident that I'm not seeing any jobs that are asking for Django as their main top-level thing - which would run counter to the idea that you're parcelling out the web and data eng stuff

[frosty sail]

@kind oar is somewhat correct in his suspicion I think, Django use seems to be concentrated in startups

I see quite a lot of startup companies using Django for their public facing sites

I’m not sure where the reputation that it’s not good for that came from

Right instagram is the famous Django example ya

Yeah I don’t think your points about other web servers being “lighter” or “more controllable” than Django are necessarily accurate. And even to the extent they are, those aren’t necessarily going to mesh with the business priorities. VMs are cheap compared to engineering time, and many companies find using Django increases their engineering team productivity I think

[sharp flame]

Hello everyone! Does somebody know if it's illegal to webscrap financial data from investing.com or yahoo? how do I interpret the TOS?

[gritty rivet]

Off topic for this channel but I googled it for you anyway: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/46922415/does-yahoo-finance-ban-web-scrapy-or-not

[sharp flame]

Thank you!

[frosty sail]

Well my overall point is it’s not just easier, it’s arguably a better long-term business decision. Many tech company leaders certainly think so

[sharp flame]

investing.com is the best because they showing real time data publicly

if Bloomberg terminal web scraps every corner of the web i don't think i'm gonna get in trouble for scraping quotes

[summer roost]

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/mobile/software-developers.htm from the US government's Bureau of Labor Statistics puts the median pay for "Software Developers, Quality Assurance Analysts, and Testers" at $110k country wide. I think that is still too low to be correct, but it at least seems far more plausible then $73k

[gilded valley]

iirc glassdoor says the mean is 109k, which is exactly inline with that

but saying your anecdotal experience is correct when all data available says otherwise is usually not a great approach

[summer roost]

the numbers from BLS and glassdoor seem far more believable to me than the ones from payscale.com, anyway.

and my anecdotal experience says that $73k is fairly low as a starting salary, and incredibly low for a mid-career salary

[shadow moss]

BLS looks right. That’s all software developers from Jr to extremely senior

[summer roost]

but with testers and QA conflated in as well

regardless, the payscale.com number seems wildly off to me. The BLS number is a bit more than 50% higher than the payscale.com number

those ought to be accounted for in the BLS numbers as well.

my wild guess would be that the payscale numbers are self-reported, and the people most likely to self-report their salary to a site like payscale are the people who are earliest in their career

[thick juniper]

For those who are interested (@kind oar), I didn't get the job. Sorry to be anticlimactic.

I've seen things on here about asking for feedback. How would I phrase that? Would something like, 'Hey, Thanks for getting back to me. If possible, is there any feedback you could provide me on my application? Thanks... etc' do?

[summer roost]

you can ask for feedback, but they're unlikely to give anything particularly concrete. Doesn't hurt to ask, though, especially if you phrase it in a way that suggests that you might apply again in the future.

[thick juniper]

Thanks. It sucks not to have the stability of an offer, but I'll just have to shoot for a better one next time.

[thick juniper]

😆 Thanks for adding in that last bit. I actually took out the part where I said "... on my application for any future attempts" because I thought that'd sound too needy or... well... sort of like a guy who's crush rejects him only to respond, 'Just wait... you'll like me in time!'

[summer roost]

You made it pretty far in the process, which suggests that your skills and experience are relatively close to what they're looking for. It's not crazy to think that you might apply to that same company in a year or two and get the offer; it's not needy to suggest that you'll keep them in mind the next time you're job hunting

indeed

if you ask for feedback, the most likely outcome is just that they say "we went with someone with more experience" or something noncommittal like that, but there's a small chance that they offer you something meaningful instead, and it doesn't cost you anything to ask.

[thick juniper]

Yeah, I get that. I just meant I thought adding that bit would make it less likely she'd respond, not that she'd think I was a creep or something.

Thanks all.

You and I think alike, then.

I send the email, with a specific request for advice on future applications to the company. Before I get back to studying (daughter is asleep), I think I'm just going to apply to a random job to make myself feel better.

[brittle thorn]

Good luck ...I think you will do better next time around now you have experienced the process first hand... try small companies that might have less stringent or defined process for hiring and you might have better luck. Big companies do hire en masse but that tends to attract more candidates too. Look for overlooked job openings in smaller entities that match your interests.

[thick juniper]

Hahaha. No, I get that. Sorry if I sound morose. I just thought I had better than even odds. And who knows? I might have. I'm not actually upset in any real way.

Definitely. I just meant I'd apply to one right now to make myself feel better. It's study time, so after that I plan to go crack the (digital) books.

[summer roost]

the fact that you made it this far in the process does suggest that you did have better than even odds.

but yeah - more applications means more chances. Since interviewing is still mostly remote, now is the ideal time to capitalize on that - it'll never be this easy to interview again 🙂

[smoky quest]

Glad to see things are improving!

[pure raft]

So do you think it won’t be remote even though that seems to be the desired Avenue for employees now?

[summer roost]

Pretty much every company went to ~100% remote interviewing during the pandemic. I expect some of those companies will move back to in-office interviewing in the future, when it's safer to do so.

[pure raft]

Ohhhhh gotcha gotcha

[summer roost]

as far as remote work goes, I expect that 5 years from now there will be more software devs working remotely than there were at the start of 2020, but fewer than there were at the start of 2021 - I don't really have an educated guess as to what proportion will wind up being remote, though.

possibly, but there's some pretty severe drawbacks to remote teams as well - it's harder to build team cohesion, it's harder to foster open communication, it's harder to onboard new people (they have a harder time asking questions when they're remote than face to face, so they learn the domain and the product and the company culture slower)

my guess is that the norm will wind up being a mix of some days from home and some days in the office at a typical company - but, we'll see. That's just an educated guess.

[smoky quest]

Don't underestimate the number of bad management who got lost once they couldn't over hear conversations

[honest pivot]

Remote work demands a whole new level of communication skills that I think a lot of people don't have

[summer roost]

even good managers used to benefit from being able to overhear conversations and pick up on problem spots the team was having

[ancient star]

People like me, who can run a store and talk to people all day, but freeze up on video/phone calls .-.

[summer roost]

most of my work experience has been in open plan offices and cube farms - overhearing conversations was definitely a big part of how work got done in the past.

yeah, jokes and casual conversations with coworkers are really hard to replicate in the 100% remote world.

[honest pivot]

I hate phone calls, but video is ok. That's not actually what I was talking about. More like, if you want to talk to people, you have to actually do it on purpose. Same with making sure the appropriate people are included in whatever conversations.

[smoky quest]

No, literally overhearing people.

Once the pandemic started, they didn't know what their teams were working on, who should do what, objectives...
They were playing manager all along but could get by with having the engineers with their ass-in-seats

or opportunities for streamlining the org 😉

[summer roost]

the fact that every conversation now requires intention is a huge difference that doesn't get enough attention, I think. There are things that, in the past, I would bring up to a coworker or the boss over a coffee that don't seem worth scheduling a video call for these days.

[smoky quest]

I would rather promote the engineers making up for the lack of skills of their managers

(you could also wonder how they got in, in the first place, and how the managers of these managers didn't notice...)

[honest pivot]

If the team is running smoothly, it must be because of the manager, right? Right?

Sure. I was responding to the message above yours.

[smoky quest]

Manager is not about being the best worker. But it's about managing the team.
You are accountable for the results.

If only there was someone to manage the execution and was accountable for the results 🤔

But yeah, a large part of the role of a manager is to ask someone if they have talked to another relevant person

[marsh wind]

Lol yeah. I have to do that occasionally....

[marsh wind]

Our CEO just like to see people working

[long blaze]

are most people in this channel developers? I'm curious on how challenging it is to land a job as a developer without a CS degree or from a bootcamp

I come from an IT background, and honestly I don't know if I want to keep this path, but I'm sorta stuck in the sense that it would be too hard for me to start over (financially)

[smoky quest]

And paradoxically, the higher up I see people, the less themselves spend actual hours on the job

[long blaze]

like helpdesk/ sys admin

[smoky quest]

How would working on a transition path be for you?
In general, going into CS without a degree is pretty difficult. But may be easier with an IT experience/degree

[vital skiff]

funny as my mates (directors, good jobs) have started playing golf once a week during 'working hours'!

they are the bosses so can do it, they have worked very hard though for 10+ years building their company

[smoky quest]

yeah, and then have "work lunches", hear pitches for their angel investment, plus take care of their kids for whatever activities, plus...

[marsh wind]

Our CEO is working more often than not afaik... But how much Idk and also Idk how much of that work is useful heh

[vital skiff]

I need to learn how to network... one of the reasons I joined this was to be more talkative!

[marsh wind]

I'd say it doesn't if he wouldn't sometimes try to interfere imposing stupid shit on us

[long blaze]

I was thinking about that too, making it a goal of mine to learn python this year and see how that can help me

[smoky quest]

Because they have much larger responsibility and alleged accountability

[marsh wind]

I mean yes but wouldn't you agree that time for daily stand up meeting is the team internal matter?

[vital skiff]

not aussie! did live there for gap year though, good times! 'mate', 'champ', 'sheila' 🙂 loved it

[marsh wind]

There's a difference between Beeing a boss and micro managing

[vital skiff]

i am similar position, I was thinking junior/entry level role and possible 2nd job

[marsh wind]

He did let go of the matter eventually, I think after around 4 or 5 meetings with POs and such answer to question 'did you move daily' was silence and smth like "well not exactly" 😂

[smoky quest]

you help them recognize that what they say can have a much stronger impact than they think and generally managing up

[marsh wind]

Well we basically ignored him till he let go of the matter so that's what we can do

[honest pivot]

What time do you have your daily standup? We do ours first thing at 9:00

[marsh wind]

10:30

[near ocean]

8:30 gang

[long blaze]

what's your current job? I tried doing 2 jobs but it was a bit too intense for me

[marsh wind]

At 9 there would be no one including me 😂

[near ocean]

What kind of hours do you work for standup to be at 10:30

[smoky quest]

A single employee has little impact on an org in general. But a great CEO can have a great impact as much as a bad CEO can run a business into the ground

[honest pivot]

What timing do you think is best? I went with 9 because it's the start of the day and it seemed to make sense to get everyone oriented. But maybe there's some reason to have some pre-standup time, I dunno.

[vital skiff]

ecommerce manager is my job title it is for a small business, what about yourself?

[smoky quest]

there are no best hours imho.
We did some at 10am, other at 2pm and right now it's all async/remote on slack

[honest pivot]

I've definitely wished I could show up late, but we have a meeting at 9 that I scheduled, so... 😛

[long blaze]

IT manager, but sorta like a hybrid manager/sys admin

[marsh wind]

Reason 1: our workday starts around 9:30-10:00 (for whole team to be there)
Reason 2: gives some warm up time, ie respond to slack messages or what's ups from client, run some quick tests to better see where we are and etc.
There's no best time really

[vital skiff]

i have been in ecommerce (retail) for a long time, would like to move away and do something different, something which contributes more rather than import from Far East for profit! hence i thought about learning to program.

[honest pivot]

Lately my day has started at 8:45, I just spend 15 minutes catching up with messages. If we ever start regularly going back to the office, I think the standup should definitely be moved, though

I am very much not a morning person, WFH allows me to wake up at 8:15 and be at work by 8:45, lol

[smoky quest]

In the USA, there can be a large part of equity as part of your compensation.
So the ceo better works for it.
As a concrete example, imagine you got handed 100k$ of stock 2 years ago. Being at twitter, tesla or amazon would lead to very different outcomes given their current price

[marsh wind]

From previous manager daily was at 9:15 on paper. In reality it almost never happened as someone including her would be late one time or another

[vital skiff]

many responsibilites! wearing many hats. I like to think (applies to myself so am bias!) that management level is equivilent of post grad degree but i am spending a lot of my spare time upskilling (online courses/portfolio projects etc)

[tired willow]

pls i need help in apple chanel pls 😩

[honest pivot]

Our meeting takes about 5 minutes. I'll wait up to like 1 minute, otherwise start without people. 😛

[long blaze]

what kind of courses are you taking?

[smoky quest]

vesting*

Also a lot less common in Europe

[marsh wind]

Right I am driving my partner to work whether it's my remote or wfh day. That alone makes starting before 9:30 next to impossible.

[marsh wind]

Mine is around 10 rarely go 15 if we have some blocking points that implicate more than 2 people

[vital skiff]

rightly or wrongly.... I have invested my time in: ['python udemy', 'python youtube playlists', 'google crash course', 'google academy courses'] and now am thinking of a bootcamp. Have you done any? (i need to go in a bit btw!)

[smoky quest]

As the saying goes: shit rolls downhill
I did see that at multiple company, directly with people leaving because of the CEO and indirectly by setting a toxic culture and people not wanting to join, and sometimes both at the same time

[long blaze]

not too much besides the tutorials online. I still haven't gotten a good grasp on using python in my everyday life. Trying to learn more and hopefully get more experience

[vital skiff]

i did a powerbi course a few years ago, day to day job is google analytics, conversions, profit and loss, html/css etc... i do like data, hence i looked a data science option. The main thing I think it doing little projects, I really got stuck into python, i was absorbing so much, youtube, books, udemy etc but it was overload so I took a step back and decided on a couple of projects for a portfolio.

[long blaze]

hahah the AWS certs are on my to get this year, I figured Cloud is the best way to can get into the Eng side from IT

[vital skiff]

I have bookmarked an azure course previously and was also thinking SQL

[ancient star]

Meanwhile I'm just pursuing an AS in Comp Sci. >_>; Maybe some certs would look good too.

[vital skiff]

I think I need to try and focus though i.e. pick one and really get stuck in.

[ancient star]

AWS Certs are on my mind for whatever reason lol.

[summer roost]

that's a good plan. I'd try to move from IT into DevOps, and from DevOps into software engineering, if you want.

[marsh wind]

For real python is just a tiny part of it....

[vital skiff]

I like MS also, I actually moved away from Apple walled garden and into MS and android and never looked back!

[long blaze]

have most companies shift to remote?

especially since the pandemic

[vital skiff]

i got to go now, ty for conversations 👍

[long blaze]

yeah, I'm from the Bay Area, so a lot of places here went full remote or hybrid

would you happen to have any advice on how to start using python? I'm trying to not get stuck in the whole tutorial cycle

[smoky quest]

If they are in the bay area, azure is the least popular cloud. AWS/Google cloud would be more popular

lol not like that.
Azure has no hold in the bay. It's very much unix/linux land

They aren't targeting the same folks anyway.
AWS/Google cloud are lower level than Azure. Azure has a more solution approach and targeting companies that aren't technical

I can see that

[latent mountain]

Can I intern for anyone? I’ll code for food!

[halcyon coyote]

should i learn java or javascript?

[smoky quest]

depends on your objectives and goals

[halcyon coyote]

my goal is to become perfect developer

[smoky quest]

what's perfect for you?

And yes, the answer will be python on a python discord

[halcyon coyote]

i love to create crazy things i love then i have many options to choose this is perfect for me

[smoky quest]

so why not python?

[halcyon coyote]

you know i will stay with python

[smoky quest]

Languages are tools, not an end in themselves. If you want to deepen your language skills, you may want to look at other languages than javascript/java such as prolog, erlang or ocaml

[halcyon coyote]

print("that good to know")

[smoky quest]

Or you can also try to look at what java / javascripts enable you to do with them. Different languages enable different use cases

[halcyon coyote]

there so many languages AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! i want to learn all of them but i know its impossible! 😦

[smoky quest]

The first language is the most difficult one to learn. Afterwards it becomes much easier

[halcyon coyote]

i agree with you! its hard to not rage XD! but in the end you be smiling and dancing HAHA! that what i do

[ancient star]

My class line up has me learning Python now and C++ later on. There's my two languagesl

[coarse wharf]

Hey everyone i had a question, does enyone now how i can start with python

[thick juniper]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[coarse wharf]

The first thing i need to learn @thick juniper

[latent mountain]

I already know enough Python, problem is I can’t break into software engineering field.

[thick juniper]

So I know everyone here says that "certifications" are mostly useless, but I have a few people around me who keep suggesting I get them. As many know, I'm older and don't have a CS degree. I know it isn't useful to someone entry-level in the field with a CS degree, but as a way to say 'yes, actually, I do have some skills, just not CS level ability', is it at all useful? More or less useful than a bootcamp?

Thanks.

EDIT: This will be from a local junior college, not RANDOM.inc

[latent mountain]

I have about a dozen certificates. I can’t get any where in the software engineering industry.

[latent mountain]

They want enterprise type projects that you have done for an actual company. Problem is getting a job to do that project is a big wall.

[summer roost]

probably about on par with a bootcamp, I suppose. A hiring manager is unlikely to have any ability to tell high quality bootcamps from low quality ones, and likewise for high quality certs vs low quality ones. I suppose certs prove some level of determination, but I don't think they prove very much about what skills you have.

[latent mountain]

I talk to recruiters every day. Constantly being roughed up about my resume and lack of professional experience (actual work for a company). Usually when you see someone on YouTube that has had a job as a software engineer it’s because they either knew someone, had a family member or payed their way in because no way in hell I got all this knowledge of studying for programming all these years and can’t even get an entry level position anywhere.

[latent mountain]

Degrees are what matters, no degree no job.

[summer roost]

what country are you in? How old are you? What experience do you have?

[latent mountain]

I’m in California

I have about 3 years of actual full stack level programming

Been coding for all my life though though. Lol we all did html when Myspace came out haha

I started off with react then worked my way back to back end

I’m 30 years old

All the years waisted learning to program I could’ve had a degree or two by now

[thick juniper]

I guess the questions are: 1) will it get me looked at more often (I'm in the Midwest USA but looking mostly remote), and 2) is the worth giving up progress I'm making through a Udemy course.

I guess that leads to #3: Will the Udemy course certificate seem worse or better than Random Community College?

[latent mountain]

Go to college!!!

[summer roost]

For a company, or freelance, or just your own projects? What have you been doing career-wise?

[latent mountain]

Yeah but even people who look for freelancers want experience. Maybe create a portfolio.

[latent mountain]

I create bots, web apps, I can debug. Hell my code editor can debug for me with my eyes closed. Software companies want a resume with exaggerated experiences.

[summer roost]

I've been on the hiring side of the desk - they don't want exaggerated experiences, they want known quantities. They've already figured out what strengths and weaknesses someone with a CS degree has, and they're used to training someone who fits that mold up to work as a productive developer in their organization. Someone without the formal training is much more of an unknown, and thus a bigger risk

[summer roost]

I'm inclined to say that the random community college cert might be slightly better overall, but I'm not sure. Any chance you can manage to get an associates degree in CS? That'd be worth more than any cert...

[latent mountain]

Just go to Western Governor’s University.

[latent mountain]

If I go back to college for the degree I’m asking for nothing less than $250,000 after graduation.

[summer roost]

You can ask, but you're quite unlikely to get that

[latent mountain]

I bet you I will

[summer roost]

that's an achievable amount for someone with around 5 to 10 years of professional experience, plus a degree, plus a fair amount of domain expertise

it sounds like you've been focusing on web development so far - that would be an astronomical salary for a web developer, regardless of experience.

[latent mountain]

If I go back for a bachelors degree which would take me two years. I’d already have that amount of experience.

[summer roost]

I'm confused: have you been working as a professional software dev, or not?

[latent mountain]

I’ve never worked for a company I’m a self taught software engineer

[summer roost]

ok - have you been selling your work, then?

freelancing, or consulting, or the like?

[latent mountain]

Nope because I don’t have “professional experience” I guess. Maybe one day I’ll be able to be a corporate engineer. I tried building my own company before but I lack the resources. I pitched to Vc groups. But since I lack the credentials it all falls down.

[thick juniper]

I mean, baby #2 comes in August, so...

[summer roost]

fair enough 🙂

[summer roost]

right, so - you don't have any professional experience, then. If you had a degree, you'd have a degree, but still 0 years of professional experience. Your starting salary would likely be in the $90k-$110k range, give or take, and depending on cost of living

[latent mountain]

Not true because college engineer students have pathways to internships where as the self taught developer does not.

[frosty sail]

I mean failing to get funded by VCs is an experience shared by many people who are credentialed and successful. While I’m sure that was an intense experience, I feel like you shouldn’t beat yourself up about that

[latent mountain]

By the time a college kid graduated they have already interned before which gives them the professional experience. I had to drop out of school to work and pay bills.

[summer roost]

that's true, but I don't see how it's relevant - if you go for a degree and get an internship or two, you'd have one or two internships worth of professional experience - you still won't have the 5 or 10 years of experience that I said you'd likely need to command a salary over $200k

[latent mountain]

Yes but that as told to me by another cs major one of my colleagues was that you intern at a company to work for them. Say if you interned at “Google”. That opens the door to work for them after you graduated. Interns at “Google” make $8000 a month on average.

[frosty sail]

This is accurate AFAIK yes

[latent mountain]

True that, I can only speak for myself. I have coding experience that goes beyond school though. So by the time I go back and graduated that’s my offer to companies take it or leave it. I continue to get better. I constantly build better programs. I have more skills than most graduates. Not saying I’m smarter or better but the average graduate hasn’t built a gateway core with back end databases and firewall from FastAPI and Streamlit. Or can automate a chatbot, mine for crypto or create their own crypto. Most of my classmates in college on average didn’t know much about programming.

Steve Wozniak did not graduate college would you hire him for $250,000?

[summer roost]

$8000/month is $96,000 per year, which is on par with the $90k-$110k range I said you'd be likely to expect with a degree.

[latent mountain]

Would you hire Mark Zuckerberg? Elon Musk?

[summer roost]

absolutely not 😄

[frosty sail]

Internships in Bay Area do tend to pay this much in my experience FYI. Just you only get paid for three months

[latent mountain]

How much Raymond?

[summer roost]

Oh, I don't doubt that pay at all - $8k/month sounds totally reasonable to me.

[thick juniper]

How about something like this? It's a certificate from Cornell. Cornell is a big name and people won't doubt its quality, or would they?

https://ecornell.cornell.edu/certificates/technology/python-programming/

[latent mountain]

It would get you the interview! Definitely. But after the interview it’s up to the hiring manager. That’s the key secret. My advice just befriend a hiring manager buy him some coffee, cut his lawn, give him some crypto. Because he still going to grill you on experience soo…..

[frosty sail]

Uhhh what

[smoky quest]

You may want to deflate a bit your expectations to get them more realistic.

[latent mountain]

Trust me with all the certificates I have I’m a certified loser 🤣

[frosty sail]

If you can provide evidence you can do all this I don’t think experience is the issue here into getting a normal software engineering job

[latent mountain]

Exactly why I’d demand $250,000

[frosty sail]

Then you’re not gonna get a job

[smoky quest]

You ain't worth two new grads

[latent mountain]

Is that what you guys make?

[summer roost]

Sounds better than udemy, I suppose

[smoky quest]

It has nothing to do with what I make. It has to do with what new grads make

[frosty sail]

Definitely not going to get paid that much Without prior work experience. Most of being a senior or higher level engineer getting paid that much is soft skills, not technical skills. Prior work is the best evidence of that, technically interesting solo projects aren’t

[latent mountain]

So what does a new grad make?

[smoky quest]

~100k usd/year

[latent mountain]

So what does a non grad make?

[smoky quest]

depends on the years of experience and responsibilities

[latent mountain]

That’s the problem though I got years of experience just not for a company

[smoky quest]

then you don't have years of experience

[summer roost]

as a junior developer? They'd make the same as a new grad makes as a junior developer, roughly. Maybe $10k less or so, but same ballpark - if they get hired.

[latent mountain]

You must be a grad

[ancient star]

Make a resume based on technical projects and hope for the best? >_>

[summer roost]

nearly everyone who works in the industry is.

[latent mountain]

There must be some way for me to get a job without having to starve in this industry

[smoky quest]

100k is far from starving. It's much higher than the median income

[latent mountain]

Already did that I get contacted by recruiters everyday but lack of company experience holds me back

[latent mountain]

Well I’m obviously not making that now. But I am eating popcorn at the moment.

[smoky quest]

I hear you and hope it gets better!
But it won't get better by making unrealistic demands

[latent mountain]

I only said if “I” went back to college that’s what I’d demand.

[latent mountain]

Because I know today I’m competent at the junior level already. Thanks for your time and feedback I hope I didn’t upset anyone and if I did forgive me.

[smoky quest]

That would be up to you, but that would not set you up for success and is rather an arbitrary number

[true harness]

even half of what you asked is pretty high for a junior dev 🤔

[latent mountain]

I understand but I’d make more money driving semi trucks than coding if I accepted any offer less than a six figure salary.

[true harness]

100k is 6 figures

[latent mountain]

I’d be comfortable with that salary if I started today

I burnt my popcorn 🍿🔥😆

[frosty sail]

Taking a pay cut if you’re switching industries/careers is entirely normal AFAIK

[frosty sail]

F

[pure raft]

So you’re saying the only reason you haven’t been hired yet is because you don’t have a degree? Just curious because I don’t have a degree either and I’m just getting started

[summer roost]

It sounds like you're getting offered interviews, but not getting offered jobs. If you're convinced you have the skills that companies would look for in a junior developer, another possibility is that your attitude is stopping you from getting offers. You seem to be drastically overestimating the value that you would bring to a company.

[summer roost]

if you can afford the time and money to get a degree, get a degree.

[pure raft]

I mean in CS, I already have an audio engineering bachelors 😫

[latent mountain]

Degree is a factor but it’s the pro experience. They want to see experience from a company. When I interview with companies they don’t care about degrees. They just care about the job experience. I talk to recruiters everyday and do on average two interviews a week.

[frosty sail]

Dang that’s a lot

[summer roost]

having a degree is radically better than no degree, especially a degree in a STEM field.

[latent mountain]

Degree is a major boost always will be. Grads can and should demand their own salaries

[pure raft]

Yeah I feel like that’s everything though. I went to school for audio, but my main teaching job is what pays the bills. The people that went to school for education hate me because I really don’t know how to teach and I never had teaching experience at one point-but I just reached out and got a callback at some point

[latent mountain]

Awesome

[pure raft]

That’s very pleasing to hear my friend!! Would you consider what I have in STEM then?

[latent mountain]

Sounds like a self taught software engineer 🤣 speaking about myself

[frosty sail]

I mean the E stands for engineering

[pure raft]

Case and point homie, so I mean, just keep it up

[pure raft]

I have heard in places though that they didn’t consider my degree a stem degree, although I don’t know who ultimately decides that

[frosty sail]

It’s definitely not in the like most commonly recognized STEM degrees. As far as who decides that during hiring I’m 100% sure that’s entirely arbitrary

[latent mountain]

Most of them don’t care. I already been contacted by fang recruiters.

My Microsoft recruiter didn’t care about the degree she just asked me about my professional experience. Even when I answered some technical questions

[pure raft]

And what about for entry level type places that would provide you with the exp

[latent mountain]

Good question, I thought about that before but most of them only accept college students.

[pure raft]

Awesome, so I won’t get people calling me fraudulent etc

[true harness]

it's not like you don't have a degree though lol, it just might not be the one they're looking for

[pure raft]

So then it becomes a thing of
-faang want pro exp
-how get pro exp
-entry level give pro exp
-entry level want degree
-faang want degree indirectly

Am I wrong in thinking this?

[pure raft]

And so that shouldn’t hurt me nearly as much as having none then, right?

[latent mountain]

With my resume I add my projects and things I worked on. I always get approached for senior roles. But when I talk to a recruiter or manager. I just tell them I want an entry level. And those they reserved for grads

[pure raft]

Why wouldn’t you take what they give you though

[latent mountain]

That’s how it’s been for me for the pass several years yes!

[latent mountain]

Because they wouldn’t hire me without experience with a company before

My resume gets me an interview but when I talk to the hiring manager they want either a grad or someone that worked for an actual company before. Sucks because I dropped out of school to pay my bills thinking I can program on the side, get certificates (a EDX course here, codecademy course there) and yet I wished I would’ve stayed in college I would’ve graduated by now making six figures.

I wished I lived in Germany. They give free college to all residents. United States education system pay to play.

[summer roost]

having a CS degree is better than not having a CS degree. Having professional experience is better than not having professional experience. Having any degree is better than having no degree, even if some degrees are much less useful than a CS degree.

[pure raft]

And with that logic would you direct someone who has a non cs degree but still a degree to get a cs degree? Or build up skills and make the jump to entry level 75k type beat

[latent mountain]

👍

[summer roost]

You would have better chances at getting a job if you could afford the time and money to get a CS degree, but it's all just about raising your chances. If you think you have the skills employers want, you can also try interviewing for junior roles and see if you can find a place that's willing to hire you. For mid-career professionals, often the best option is changing from one field into a related one, so maybe you could find a way to leverage your audio engineering expertise to get into the software side of things somewhere

[latent mountain]

I’ll code for foooooood!!!!!!😱

Or non burnt popcorn lol 🍿🤣🔥

[frosty sail]

I wouldn’t but I’m also pretty strongly against a lot of traditional hiring practices in tech

[pure raft]

@frosty sail @summer roost you are both amazing-this insight is gold

Probably at this point then, easier to build up skills, and cast a wide wide wide net

[latent mountain]

Okay does it matter where I get the degree from? Because I can’t afford American college. It’s too expensive. Can I study abroad? Get a degree that way?

[smoky quest]

as long as it's an equivalent (ie. equivalent to a BS for instance).
However going abroad can end up more costly than local colleges

[summer roost]

I've never heard of anyone doing that, so I'm not sure how practical it would be. Community colleges in the US are usually reasonably priced.

[latent mountain]

Sure they do…I researched it’s thousands of dollars way more

[latent mountain]

If I went to college in America it would have to be online because I work.

I’m already doing that, I’m taking credit exams on the side

But by the time I graduate I’m not going for a job under $160,000

[frosty sail]

If someone’s resume came across my desk that they were working a day job and completed a CS degree in night classes I’d be very impressed

[latent mountain]

I have too much of non professional experience of professional level experience

[summer roost]

you will probably not find a job, then. It's probably not worth it to bother.

[latent mountain]

Okay how much should I start with then?

[frosty sail]

But you’re never gonna get that much with an entry level job. That’s more than senior engineers make in most areas

[smoky quest]

100k

[summer roost]

maybe ~$110k would be achievable.

[latent mountain]

What?! 😟 truck drivers make more money than that.

[smoky quest]

It's about the market: supply and demand.

[frosty sail]

Working 40 hours a week? I doubt that

[smoky quest]

Given the effort and risks involved, I would be ok with truck drivers making that

[pure raft]

I’m also pretty sure truck drivers make 70k to live unhealthily

[latent mountain]

Programming is the same thing😭

All we do is sit in front of a laptop

[true harness]

programming is a pretty cushy job. you have decent hours, it's not physically strenuous, and you can easily work remote

[frosty sail]

Anyway if you can make more money driving trucks, and the money is all you care about, go drive trucks. It seems like you’re pretty passionate about software- maybe you can join open source projects and just write code in your free time then

[pure raft]

Nahhhhh homie not even close, get a standing desk, hit the gym 3 days a week, we can eat whatever we want! Truck drivers are at the mercy of truck stop food and fast food

[latent mountain]

I already do that

[summer roost]

truck drivers tend to work longer hours than software developers, and their pay doesn't tend to increase with years of experience at nearly the same rate as software developers' pay does.

[smoky quest]

In terms of market, your competition will be the younger new grads who have the amount of professional experience than you: 0.
If you aim for 160k, your competition will be senior engineers with many years of experiences and able to lead projects and mentor people.

So why would a manager pay that much for you when they can either hire someone more senior and able or hire a cheaper new grad with the same experience than you?

[latent mountain]

Just by or lease a truck they make almost $200,000 a year.

[frosty sail]

… if you own the truck do you not have to pay expenses for said truck that will take a very large chunk out of that $200k

[latent mountain]

Did I forget to mention I taught coding classes for a non-profit program I started before?

[latent mountain]

True, but we’re weren’t taking about after taxes

[true harness]

if you're getting so many interviews, why aren't you getting hired

[smoky quest]

That's great!
But you seem to assume other new grads haven't done anything either. Many new grads have tons of personal experience or TAed

[latent mountain]

No cs degree, no “pro experience “

[true harness]

right, but junior devs don't have pro experience, and if you're getting interviewed you're already past the hardest part

[latent mountain]

That’s what I thought

[smoky quest]

What's the main feedback you get for rejections? I don't buy the lack of a degree since they already knew that when talking to you

[latent mountain]

I didn’t say that, I know grads that did a lot while in school and know a lot who cheated through school

[latent mountain]

Well, any time I get close to being hired they always find someone that meets the experience they demand. I pass some coding interviews but fail alot of them too I’m not saying I’m a genius by any means.

You have to remember there’s also countless people applying to these positions so I’m outnumbered

[smoky quest]

Are you targeting junior positions?

[latent mountain]

I learn a lot more from college students than my ex cs professors

[summer roost]

are you only applying to FAANG, or also smaller companies that are less in-demand?

[latent mountain]

I do but those are the ones that most people apply to. All the fresh grads and medium devs.

[smoky quest]

Right. But targeting junior position would remove a lot of the issues with the required experience

[latent mountain]

I gave up on fangs, they still contact me. Every company contacted me already. But every time I get close they always found someone with more experience on the resume. Apple was going to hire me for a Vue job putting away components, very easy right? Than when I reached back out to the recruiter before I can get an interview with hr they found someone.

[latent mountain]

Also when I apply to those most of them want grads

[frosty sail]

I’m not sure there’s much more ground to cover here. It’s no secret that coming from a non-traditional background, getting that first job will be harder. This seems to have devolved into mostly hemming and hawing for a while now

[latent mountain]

I appreciate everyone’s feedback. I’m just going to let this set in for a few days.

[wraith oriole]

https://tenor.com/view/lion-king-simba-roar-cute-lion-cub-gif-17303165

[true harness]

but if they invite you to interview, then they already know you don't have a degree

[latent mountain]

That’s right on the money

[frosty sail]

I’m sure if you keep at it you’ll get lucky @latent mountain. Getting a job can be hard work. I have relevant degrees and still had to apply to more than 150 jobs before getting my first offer

[latent mountain]

Yes I think most times they just want to see me because it provides a quota of interviewees they have to meet

[latent mountain]

Appreciate that

[latent mountain]

Wow nice to know that.

[smoky quest]

This still feels like we are missing something and may be interesting for you to dig deeper in.
If you target junior jobs and they call you back, they already know you don't have a degree and thus shouldn't be something you hear as an excuse later for not hiring you. If you do, it may be a polite answer for something.
And you are also passing some technical rounds, so you also seem on track.

[latent mountain]

Correct

[pure raft]

Is working for the government a good path? I don’t know anything about what they have available but I’m sure with the state of the world they’d be accepting people who know code right?? I ask this for both your situation and also in general

[wraith oriole]

https://tenor.com/view/savage-kingdom-gi-fs-mad-gif-21439947

[latent mountain]

🦁

[summer roost]

generally, no - the government tends to care much more about credentials than private companies, not less.

[latent mountain]

Yes I stay away from government jobs but I do know a lot of cyber security engineers that don’t have degrees they have certificates

A lot of them got trained in the military though don’t know if that mattered.

Cyber security is an area where they care more about your criminal background which I fail 🤣

[summer roost]

government jobs tend to have a very rigid set of criteria defined for each position, and they can only hire people that meet all of those criteria - as a way of preventing nepotism and limiting corruption

[latent mountain]

💯 percent correct

Dang! I lost track of time I had an interview with a recruiter at 4:30

[pure raft]

Oh good to know! And that’s probably degree + certs for sure right?

[latent mountain]

What kind of job your trying to get?

[median parrot]

gl luminate

[latent mountain]

?

[median parrot]

on getting a job

[latent mountain]

Thanks 🤞

I’ll update you guys on my progress

I have two interviews tomorrow. One with an assessment.

Just been contacted by Snapchat for a full stack role. I told the recruiter I’d like to try for an entry level role. Waiting to see what she says.

[brittle thorn]

Good luck and keep us informed

[storm raft]

a weird question, more about learning rather than careers

what am i doing - (independent study, not a student) taking moocs in probability and statistics and python and computation (not yet at the projects stage)

i always used to take notes when i was as student but given that i need to cover a large amount of material in short time, and making notes takes time

Q: what would be better -

--
B. watch lectures at 2x, do problems, do more problems and not taking any notes, just google the concepts if i am stuck later```

thank you for reading and/or responding 🙂

edited question for more clarity

[near ocean]

Is there a reason you cant do both? What kind of quality notes are you talking about?

[storm raft]

removed the phrase "good quality" - by that i meant notes which can be referrd to later, without needing additional sources

[vapid jay]

How should I plan my learning path to maximize learning to make a web application with database/front end/backend ? I have been learning for two years and I feel like I'm either still at basics or can't get past them and that maybe I should make big projects

[storm raft]

what i was referring to - say a lecture is 60m, if i watch it at 2x it will take 30m and maybe a couple of hours for problem sets

but if i take notes, the original lecture itself would take atleast 2 hours or more, besides doing problem sets for 2 more hours. so taking notes slows me down a lot

or maybe it is just me, i am not too sure :S

[near ocean]

Surely you have textbooks right? Your prof makes references to them or other reading material during the lectures? Why don't you refer to them instead of writing your own comprehensive notes

[storm raft]

refer to textbooks and other reading material instead of writing your own comprehensive notes

fair point. thank you!
i am only doing moocs, not enrolled anywhere though

[vapid jay]

django/flask crud

[lethal spoke]

Do this:
https://fullstackopen.com/en/
Then apply it to your own project.
It ccovers pretty much exactly what you're looking for and sounds about right for your skill level if you know the basics

[sturdy granite]

is knowing how to use django enough to get a job? (backend deb)

[lethal spoke]

If you can find a job that only wants you to know django (unlikely) then yes

[rigid river]

There's an opportunity in Data Analytics, a good python programmer. Contact me if anyone interested?

[shadow siren]

Hi, do you know how to develop a game?

Which language should I know?

[near ocean]

If you want to make a career out of game dev you should learn c++ or c#
I would recommend against this however, game dev is notorious for being a terrible career choice in terms of pay, work hours, and toxicity in the workplace

not sure if that was a sales pitch or not but <@&831776746206265384> nonetheless

[tender thicket]

!warn 715508470652207104 please do not use this place to advertise

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @worldly pivot.

[cold shuttle]

I agree with what mariosis said, but if you just want to casually make a game as a hobby, you may want to learn some game engines. Popular choices are Unity (With C# scripting), Unreal (C++ scripting or visual programming) and Godot (GDscript or Python)

[fierce tartan]

🎉

[coarse wharf]

I am learning python now on youtube. With corey schafer is that good? I am now at the part of strings

Ohoke 🙏 thanks

[pure raft]

Something in networking but I’ve got a bit of a ways to go! Wanted to double check the path etc

[hearty island]

Hi (name),

Recently, I was given a lucrative offer from a Fortune 5. I accepted the offer and I will be working for them during the upcoming summer. I want to thank you for the winter internship as I gained valuable attributes during the internship such as time management and self-learning.

Best,
(name)

is this an ok thing to send to say that i'm turning down the offer to work for the winter internship company? open to feedback

[frosty sail]

I'd drop the word "lucrative" as it is an unnecessary detail - if they care about your decision making process they'll ask, and offering that detail gives you no benefit - but otherwise looks fine

and yeah, can also drop any detail on the competing offer you accepted from the message. Not necessary information.

[hearty island]

I accepted an offer for another company and I will be working for them during the summer. is that better?

well he gave me a return offer for the summer, but i got a summer offer from another company and i accepted it for the other company

soph

year 2

thank you that was worded much better my bad this is the first time i've even got multiple offers so i had no clue how to do it

i gotta say it is a huge confidence booster to get more than one offer at the same time tho bc like a year ago i'd have to apply to so many just to get one

well i got my winter one by walking up to the ceo and pitching myself

very ballsy lol

oh yeah totally it was a very small company

[frosty sail]

what, do you not just run into ceos you recognize on your grocery trips

just go up and give them a firm handshake, instant job offer. The boomer way

[hearty island]

it was at my college lecture i asked good questions and i made a strong impression

the boomer way seriously does work sometimes

[near ocean]

i think naming the company you accepted an offer from is oversharing tbh

[hearty island]

yeah, i'm not putting the fact that it's a fortune 5 they don't need to know that

unitedhealth group

nahhhh not evil

[peak halo]

I think all health insurance companies in the US are evil, but you do what you have to.

you can't eliminate an evil system on your own. if it's going to exist, the money might as well be going to you.

[hearty island]

well i think it's valuable experience

[peak halo]

It probably will be. And I should let you know, I've sat in on discussions about hiring interns (I'm not nearly senior enough to be a participant in that discussion), and you want to make sure that your tasking during your internship is cohesive. If you can't say at the end of your internship "I made something that does this", future hiring managers might not be able to understand how that experience was valuable.

(and it might be because it wasn't.)

[hearty island]

yeah, that's why i applied for this one in hopes that it would be diff from the winter internship bc i felt the winter internship was very bs-ey

[peak halo]

Also, this is part of why unpaid internships are a bad idea. If there's no incentive for the business to keep you productive (because they'd be wasting their money if they didn't), then they won't, and the whole experience will have been a waste of time for both of you.

[hearty island]

yeah screw unpaid internships

my parents would probably force me to work at like a cashier position over an unpaid internship bc it's unpaid and honestly same here

i did an unpaid internship once and i wanna say it was the worst experience of my life

oh slack is down

[frosty sail]

I'll add to this that "managing up" will always be a valuable skill, and should be practiced at all levels of seniority (I suppose except for board members... they report to nobody)

[hearty island]

yeah i think me being a cashier helped me calm down tense situations

[peak halo]

I worked for Starbucks for five years and that's why I hate everyone now.

[amber plume]

I'm currently working as an FTE in a mid junior size organization. I'm still in college so I was expecting to be able to work on side and get some experience prior my graduation. But the company I got an FTE role said after I worked for 4 months that they don't hire short term interns and they were expecting me to work as an associate which I would like as well, but the work life balance is not good and I'm being treated as an employee rather than an intern and want to get out of this toxic environment. My company says no other company would consider my experience because it's not stable and I switched after few months. Does that count as an experience if I worked for 6 months in an internship and left? I can just add that in my resume and say my college was expecting me to attend classes after it got over?

[safe loom]

So far the only method that works is calling your old network. Except you can't really do that everytime since they're at work. Also you can't expand it just like that since they hate unknown calls. Spamming with your resume also doesn't work since everybody does that and you have more luck pulling a 5* at some gacha mobage with shitty rates.

You might consider meeting people but they probably hate you which makes you hate them even more.

TL;DR I'm fucked unless the odds roll well for me.

[past plover]

hello guys

I hope you're all having a good day

I was wondering if you know a website that i can find a front-end internship. sorry not related to python

I will google but i was wondering if you guys have any advice for me? what should i know?

tnx

[summer roost]

Internships are usually 6 months or less. It would be really unusual for an internship to continue beyond 6 months, at least in my country (USA)

[pseudo rock]

I'm a 30 year old single male. I am learning python these days and to be honest I am enjoying it a bit.

I wanna know how much time can it take for me to learn pyhton and get a job?

Sometimes I feel like I'm wasting my time because I am already too late?

[ivory talon]

learning Python alone is usually not enough to get a job - for most jobs, you will need of some domain specific knowledge or more wide software design patterns, so it depends on your background.
you might be able to get an entry level job though

[safe loom]

Is there anything I can do to improve my chances of getting interviews? Overexaggerate my skills?

[pseudo rock]

How long is the process? Is it a waste of time at this age? @ivory talon

[ivory talon]

30 should definitely still be early enough to get in, but again - depends on your background
got any (if so, which) degrees? which professional experience? etc

[pseudo rock]

Like what kind of background? I did my masters in computer applications so I have a degree

But I always avoided coding at that time and now I regret it. I wasted 3 yrs of college doing fun.

Any framework which are in demand? Can they help to land a job quickly?

[safe loom]

Idk where you're from but from experience you're gonna take a long time picking up an entry level job

[summer roost]

What have you been doing for a job? Does the company you're working for have any coding positions?

[ivory talon]

^that tbh
other than that... I can't speak much more than I said (from lack of experience), but you can take a look at job offers near you on LinkedIn etc to see which kind of jobs you could get into later

[safe loom]

Do they even pick entry level anymore? Because so far they're only asking for senior devs everywhere. At least in my situation.

[pseudo rock]

I am currently unemployed.

[safe loom]

I can't land anywhere bc lack of experience or whatever's going on behind the HR scenes. Been spamming resumes for 2 weeks and so far it hasn't been budging much.

[summer roost]

Ah, that's tougher. Has any of your previous experience been software-adjacent? I haven't heard of a "masters in computer applications" before, so I don't know what it entails

[pseudo rock]

So it's pretty hard? I am from India.

I want to know is it worth the effort at this age and my situation?

[summer roost]

You're not that old. If you can afford the time and money to get a CS degree, it would easily pay off before you're retirement age.

[safe loom]

I'm from France and I'm definitely having a tough time despite being in the same situation as you. Idk for India but I've seen some offers where they demand you to be from a famous math school (that I couldn't attend).

Their demanded profiles are becoming way too specific.

[pseudo rock]

And there are hundreds of websites that teach data science courses and assure a job. I doubt their claims.

[ivory talon]

from Wikipedia:

However in India an engineering degree (B.Tech IT) in Information Technology is considered equivalent to Computer Science and Engineering degree because they both contain the core Computer Science subjects like Algorithms&Data Structures,Compiler Design,Automata Theory,Computer Organization&Architecture etc and focuses heavily on mathematical foundations of computer science.And the syllabi of both these streams are strikingly similar across many universities in India[1][2][3][4].

The degree is a Bachelor of Science degree with institutions conferring degrees in the fields of information technology and related fields. This degree is awarded for completing a program of study in the field of software development, software testing, software engineering, web design, databases, programming, computer networking and computer systems.
if that's accurate, you should be able to get a backend position with some ease, but I don't know what the market looks like in India

[summer roost]

If you can't afford to get a CS degree, it's sometimes possible to land a coding job despite that. You need some company to decide to take a risk on you. They're more likely to do that if you have some vaguely related degree (the closer related, the better). They're more likely to do that if you've had other similar jobs in the past. They're more likely to do that if you have an impressive portfolio of previous projects.

[past plover]

Do i get paid?

[pseudo rock]

Yes. Even LinkedIn job offers demand so many technologies that I feel demotivated.

[ivory talon]

job offers usually list a lot more technologies than you have to know to get the position
it's more of "we are looking for it, but we'll settle with 60~80% of it" (maybe a bit less or more)

[summer roost]

Depends on the country, I believe. Software development internships are almost always paid in the US.

[safe loom]

One year of apprenticeship isn't enough (which is basically entry-level) from what I've seen. that or they're really looking for the next Einstein.

And since there's 50+ ppl of 1 offer, we might never see the end of it.

[pseudo rock]

That's new for me. So still it is worth applying if I have a basic knowledge about few of them.

[past plover]

I live in Iran, unfortunately. Are internships online? can i apply for an internship in US?

[frosty sail]

Uh from Iran that's going to be very, very hard

US has economic sanctions w/ Iran that make employing Iranian nationals very legally tricky. Almost no company is going to be willing to put up the effort

also yes

[past plover]

gosh

So what do you think i should do?

[frosty sail]

Keep at it. Getting a job is hard, and it's a marathon, not a sprint. Keep tuning your resume, keep working on your skills, and keep applying for jobs. Eventually you'll get lucky. It took me around 4 months of applying to a couple jobs every day to get my first job out of school.

[safe loom]

I've been laid off since early November and it's slowly taking its toll right now. Doesn't help that I've contracted COVID twice so i took some time to retail my resume and get to the hunt.

[past plover]

yeah well... What about freelancing? it is logical to start a career this way?

[safe loom]

I'm always worried it's gonna take a couple more months, a year even. Doesn't help that 1st world countries look down on you if you're laid off because "you can't contribute anything and you're trash"

[summer roost]

Yes.

[frosty sail]

sounds like a rough few months. Best of luck to you. Try not to make it more emotionally draining for yourself by projecting your fears/biases into other people's mouths

[past plover]

yeah i'm going to university this year. Man it's really hard to be separated from the rest of the world just because of our government which 99% of people don't want

=)))

screw it. i will think of another way

may i ask, how old are you? do you make a living as a dev?

[safe loom]

Yeah, I can't help but fearing knowing how some of them picked up from their last jobs rather quickly. But they also had connections with their workplace + I'm belittled by my family saying "it's not normal" I didn't get anything after all this time.

[hushed kestrel]

@thick phoenix I would first talk about what sort of 'python job' you want to get. a 'python job' is typically too broad. Webdev / backend / datas science /testing /more all fall under 'python job' but I would be hard pressed to be able to get any of these simply because I haven't studied them specifically. (I could get entry level, but still.)

Once you have something that you know you want to do, you look at different job descriptions and see what they have in common. You look at resumes that tailor to those descriptions and see what they say. You talk to engineers who have those jobs and see what they say. You then develop a study/roadmap/whatever to achieve the skills that are needed for the job and then you spend half your time applying/ half studying until you get it

[past plover]

yeah. and still i feel like i should have made a lot of money by now

although i worked as a designer when i was 14 but that wasn't really well-paid

[shadow moss]

Most 17 year olds in America are working retail jobs

[past plover]

Thanks guys, warmed my heart

[hushed kestrel]

Last summer's average employment rate for 16- and 17-year-olds was 22.3%, down 2 percentage points from 2019. But for 18- and 19-year-olds, summer employment last year averaged 40.5%, compared with 47.8% in 2019

[past plover]

makes sense

[frosty sail]

I'll note that this is barely true - only about 55% of USA teenagers were employed last year. https://www.bls.gov/news.release/youth.nr0.htm. I guarantee you this is hugely skewed by family wealth, so somewhere from "most" to "nearly all" kids who go to college and end up working in software engineering are not employed.

[thick phoenix]

do they ask about data structures and algorithms?

[frosty sail]

No that's from the government so is most likely based on Taxable jobs

Though I'm not an expert on the finer details of their data collection - I'm sure they have some accounting of informal employment.

That's not really correct. You're misunderstanding how the US tax system works. Not really a useful topic for this channel, tho

[past plover]

what's the tax rate in US?

[hushed kestrel]

One thing to note is that there is no 'They'. Employers are a collection of individuals with individual needs/wants. Some do coding interviews where they ask about data structs/algos, some do coding interviews with 'can you filter data, make a file. Load a CSV...ect' Some will ask conceptual questions, others wont test you at all. It just depends on who and where you are applying.

[frosty sail]

https://www.irs.com/articles/2020-federal-tax-rates-brackets-standard-deductions/

[past plover]

tnx

[frosty sail]

correct, you do not need to file for an individual tax return. Your employer however still has to submit information on your employment and taxable income to the US govt however. You still pay into social security, etc.

[past plover]

I don't get it. you mean you pay two taxes?

can people get away with paying taxes?

[smoky quest]

No. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/taxes.asp

[hardy halo]

Has anyone experience working as a freelance programmer? If you have, would you prefer working as a full-time employee or as a freelancer?

[vapid jay]

don't listen to this guy

he'll say all your dreams are a waste if time and you are a loser

[past plover]

alright i should probably read some articles about tax

[frosty sail]

way more than two lol. This is normal in most places - you pay taxes to national, state/province,city/town/village, etc

[past plover]

ok no need to crush each other. what do think i should do?

[past plover]

wtf 😐

[hardy halo]

Everything higher than 2000$ per month is an higher income for me.

[past plover]

👍

[frosty sail]

or we can learn nothing and pay an accountant like you to do taxes for us! capitalism, baby

[hardy halo]

Right now i get as a programmer less than a factory worker who does repetitive tasks.

Ok I am currently working on an e-commerce business, if that does not work out i will try freeleacing besides my full time job.

[coarse wharf]

enyone knows why they say IndentationError: unexpected indent

does enyone now

[near ocean]

Ask in the proper channels #❓｜how-to-get-help #python-discussion

[coarse wharf]

thanks

[mild lake]

should i learen socket module in python? (i want to build python bots will it help my career to know sockets)

[coarse wharf]

@kind oar nobody responding do u know how to fix it?

ok sorry for that but i am using pycharm

[pseudo rock]

Do Google certifications really work in real life? I'm 30 and looking for a job and hoping to get a job by doing data science certification.

[merry canyon]

э

[peak halo]

I have a data scientist-like position in the US with only a BSc, and that's quite rare. Most of my coworkers have masters or PhDs--I cultivated a very niche skillset for this kind of position.

In the US, I don't think any certs intended to help you land a data scientist position will make any difference if you don't already have a degree related to data science.

I know, that's why I'm qualifying my statements.

there are also a lot of Indians in the server, so hopefully someone will come by whose lived experience is more similar.

🇮🇳

do you know if data science is as hyped in India as it is in the US?

[vapid jay]

https://youtu.be/01sAkU_NvOY

[vapid jay]

is taking this course a waste of time for a teen who's just interested in python

[peak halo]

seems more like a #data-science-and-ml question, but if you're not already familiar with Python and the basics of data science or AI, you will probably find "advanced computer vision" overwhelming.

disclaimer: I have not watched it.

[vapid jay]

im advanced in python and know a bit about datascience and ai, not much though

[smoky quest]

Have fun and try things. You may get bored or stuck but at least you will learn something and have a better idea of what it is about

[vital skiff]

that's what i am doing, i have taken on a lot of courses/interests and am building experience and a portfolio (a bit diverse) but hopefully i will also figure out what I actually enjoy!

[elfin gulch]

i want to learn python

[peak halo]

This is a career discussion channel; see #python-discussion

[unique cloak]

Hey, does anyone know good forums for entry level jobs with Python/django?

[smoky quest]

what do you mean by forums? Like job ads?

[unique cloak]

@smoky quest, something a little more responsive than indeed, etc. active communities of people looking for or providing insight into getting a career with actionable information

[near ocean]

Look at the pins here

[smoky quest]

On top of that, there is here, and a few reddit like cscareerquestion

[coarse wharf]

i am learning python and i did this the first thing

message = 'hello world' print(message)

run it : hello world

[rocky cairn]

Does anyone have renege email template?

[summer roost]

"renege" as in you said you would accept an offer, but have changed your mind and don't intend to take the job?

[rocky cairn]

yeah

I got a different offer that I like better

[summer roost]

have you signed a contract? What country are you in?

[rocky cairn]

i signed the offer letter and in the US

[summer roost]

are you in an at-will state?

[rocky cairn]

yeah

[summer roost]

I don't have any template for that, but I think it's fine to say "I apologize, but due to a change in circumstances I won't be able to accept this job after all," or something along those lines. You should expect that company to be relatively unlikely to extend you another offer in the future, but 🤷

if they're a company of any considerable size, they've certainly had it happen before. You've wasted some of their time, but oh well, that happens.

[glacial bronze]

I was given a task to do for my interview but im so busy, any advice? I dont have time to this alongside my other homework for school

[summer roost]

tell them so, and accept that that most likely means you won't get the job. "I looked at this task, but I'm sure that would take me at least X hours to do, and between my school work and family responsibilities I won't have enough free time to do this task within the next few weeks. Thank you anyway for considering me." or something like that.

[stone bloom]

if im trynna go to uni for comp sci should i take physics?

[next quiver]

I reccomend against it unless you like the subject

At my school, we are required to take 12 credits of natural science, and things like biology and geology are much easier than physics.

that being said, having taken elementary physics in high school, there is little to no overlap between it and CS

[summer roost]

If it interests you, take it.

In my school, the physics 101 class wasn't particularly tough. And actually, I took "weather" expecting it to be an easy class, and it was surprisingly tough.

[thick juniper]

In my experience, whether a certain class is easy or tough almost always depends on 1) whether one likes the subject, and 2) the professor. It almost never depends on the subject per se.

[radiant berry]

I am from India and the problem is The old age education system. Although top tier colleges provide extensive facilities the cutoff of said colleges can be as high as 97%. The remaining colleges focus on book knowledge and little real life practicle work are done. Most technical colleges provide placement opportunities to their students and thus every off campus placement or job opportunity u search for in India comes with a tag of 1 year job experience and thus lower tier college students have a dufficult time in getting a breakthrough in job market

Apart from that the lack of technical teaching staff in the remain govt university is baffling. We in our college have teaching staff position empty but the state goverment or the university doesnt bother filling up the position with appropriate skilled person

[smoky quest]

Learning from "book knowledge and little real life practice" is fine.
Real life practical skills decay pretty quickly and can also be acquired rather quickly without the need of a school. However the more theoretical which will remain useful throughout most of your career is typically more difficult to acquire on your own and thus more valuable to learn at school.

[radiant berry]

True but what is the use of the knowledge if i donot know where and how that is to be used...

[smoky quest]

That's the whole point to go to a school where teachers know what you need to know.
Same way than when you are a white belt in judo/karate and does not know what you will learn once you reach green belt

[radiant berry]

The application of knowledge leant is practicles... I am talking about practicles when i say real life use... we didnt have a lab professor or assistant when i was graduating... i did my final year project without a professor!

[serene kindle]

the trick to college is to be extremely proficient before going there

it's what the smart coders do, they have massive programming experience before college, so in college the book knowledge actually helps them

i mean of course they are 'smart coders' due to their massive experience, but it is very different than some beginner trying to 'learn coding from a book'

[smoky quest]

Not knowing how it will serve you is fine. You can always dig deeper and google and ask about it.
But rejecting something because you don't know how it may be useful in the future isn't setting yourself up for success

[serene kindle]

the trick is that since you already had the experience of coding, when the teacher teaches the book knowledge you actually have that deeper understanding of why it is important and how it applies in the real world, although it ends up being a sort of 'rehearsal' but it helps a lot more than genuinely trying to learn it the first time

for example if you were new to coding and trying to memorize 10 chapters of OOP design patterns , compared to if you had been coding for 3 years and then you were able to understand how the patterns applied in actual systems

[smoky quest]

Note also that the subjects will become a lot more connected to the career and practical once you get into college too

[radiant berry]

i donot have a coding backgroung. i did grad in Physics major. i still remember what all projects i did and was enthusiast about doing more projects or lab work. Maybe i myself am not a very verbal learner😅 🙏

[serene kindle]

the idea is that the more practical knowledge you have, the more valuable the book knowledge becomes (like a sort of balance between the practical and theoretical knowledge)

[smoky quest]

If you don't know the theory, the results you observe may be more difficult to explain and understand

[radiant berry]

thats what i wanted to explain that the balance between book knowledge and lab work is skewed.. apart from top tier college

[smoky quest]

(and predict!)

[radiant berry]

yes and i always understood the theory when is applied it in lab

[serene kindle]

even top tier colleges have different approaches. usually the ultra top tier college like caltech might go insane on theory to a degree everyone thinks is insane, but some other top tier college might do practical more or balance theory and practice, can depend on the college's culture

[radiant berry]

last lines

on the other note can yall help me with some pandas code

[serene kindle]

maybe #data-science-and-ml

[radiant berry]

ok

[gray zenith]

http://jasraj.pythonanywhere.com
whatever u type in this link will be played on every speaker of my house.

[fading forum]

code combat is good to learn python

[near ocean]

For people looking for python jobs, just noticed that pypi put up an ad for contractors
https://pyfound.blogspot.com/2022/02/we-are-hiring-contract-developers-to.html

(am i allowed to do this?)

[desert stag]

is anyone around that would be willing to take a look at some code I made. I plan on putting it on my resume

please @ me with your thoughts if you decide to read it

https://github.com/Nakadie/python_projects/blob/main/Projects/Hospital tool/Hospital_Patient_Tool.py

[indigo tapir]

sent a message dude

[pseudo rock]

Hello

I want to know that how much python is important for data science?

[grizzled trout]

Hey guys. I was given a CodeSignal question for an interview and I'm too nervous to open it yet

[pseudo rock]

I am following the data science path on ine.com( previously rmotr) and it's python section is 144 hour long. I don't wanna waste learning those things which don't have demand in industry.

[buoyant seal]

main tool for data science at the moment
At least I thought so

[pseudo rock]

@buoyant seal ...can you give a look at the course I have mentioned?

[buoyant seal]

https://towardsdatascience.com/data-science-learning-roadmap-for-2021-84f2ba09a44f

[pseudo rock]

https://my.ine.com/DataScience/learning-paths/1145995e-2db9-4b93-a0f3-5607887aba6b/python-data-scientist

[buoyant seal]

I am not in data science, that's just rumours I got around

I can see often that data science, is requiring any programming language to do the job
Python is the most beginner friendly to do it
and has all this panda and etc stuff that is used, and has easy in Jypter graphic visualizations for any kind of data satanism
and later data scientists evolve into machine learners, and python shines in machine learning

[buoyant seal]

Basically the most real world data satanism stuff I saw at https://www.kaggle.com/ tutorials in different competions

[pseudo rock]

Very interesting link @buoyant seal Thanks for sharing such a useful resource.

[frosty sail]

Python is the primary programming language used in data science, aside from SQL. Some companies still do work in R and SAS but definitely the majority of jobs in data science will be looking for Python competence.

[pseudo rock]

@frosty sail ... I have done basics of python like control flow structures, functions, data structures. Now should I directly jump to pandas and numpy or learn more python.

https://my.ine.com/DataScience/learning-paths/1145995e-2db9-4b93-a0f3-5607887aba6b/python-data-scientist

There are many topics which I have not seen on other websites like Generators and Decorators, Concurrency and parallelism, Bash scripting etc.

Are they necessary enough?

[buoyant seal]

Generators and Decorators are just to make you not writing too bad Python code
Concurrency and Parallelism, so you could optimize your code to run faster. Data science data is often big and need to squeeze all available power out of PC to handle it

I remember a girl from uni, who waited for days to process her data

then faster you process your data, then faster development
You can expect freely to work with thousands / millions of data records

if you learn python, better to learn its BASICS fully

[pseudo rock]

@buoyant seal ...when I started this course my motivation was to land a job within 6 months. But now the size of this course is making me demotivated.

[buoyant seal]

I learned in self studies the last 1 and half year, since graguated from uni. And the amount of things to learn ahead only grows further...
You can expect freely that learning in IT never stops. We learn all the time. In our free time or during job practice.

I learn 40 hours per week during job, often squeezing juicy new things into my tasks.
And i try to learn at least 10, or ideally 20 hours per week in my free time

[pseudo rock]

So did you get a job after that year of self study.

[buoyant seal]

i was lucky to get a job quickly after being graduated from uni

working at the place for already 1.5 year. Considering the amount of acquired experience in commercial programming, next job should be found relatively easy

Although I have some wishes for relocations which should complicate finding the dream job, hopefully not too much

[pseudo rock]

Wish you luck @buoyant seal

[frosty sail]

Pandas and numpy are Python code. So while you will need to devote some time just to them, to learn their specifics, Learning more advanced Python concepts in general will help with numpy and pandas coding.

More generally, data science is not separate from software engineering. Any knowledge about how computers work, good software design, algorithms and data structures, etc. will be helpful as a data scientist. 144 hours is a long online course, but not too much in the grand scheme of things. Your ambition is to find a data science job in the next six months- what is your current education background?

[lyric dune]

If i wanted to get started doing work for others (as a young python software dev)whats a good site to get a task?

[thick juniper]

I... can't imagine I'm qualified for this. I'm definitely applying anyway. Thank you.

[pseudo rock]

I have a master's in computer applications. Well , I did everything wrong during college so could not get a job. Other than this , I don't have any experience of computer science.

@frosty sail any guess how much time it can take to complete this 144 hour course?

[near ocean]

144 hours?

[pseudo rock]

Yes 144 hours.

2 months...is it achievable in 2 months.

[cosmic stag]

Should I consider learning C# to add to my resume, or is Python, Java, Javascript, SQL, and C++ ok?

[near ocean]

you should be adding projects to your CV not language badges

[frosty sail]

por que no los dos? A typical resume format has both a high-level "Skills" section and a more details "Experience/Projects" section

But that's already a lot of languages - make sure you know them in depth enough to actually answer interview questions based in them. Adding another one seems like it'd probably not have too much marginal gain to your resume appeal

[brittle thorn]

Depends on where you want to apply, if you want to get a C# job yes

[cosmic stag]

Ok thanks then I will!

[light radish]

So I gave my two weeks and I have 5 working days remaining. I still have 3 PTO days left I can use, what are your thoughts on using them? My company did ask me to train another guy on all my responsibilities. I have been doing that on a high level.

[near ocean]

theres a point where adding more langs to a resume has diminishing returns, nobody's gonna care how you can hello world in 10 langs but have nothing of depth to show for

[frosty sail]

I did pretty much say that exact thing yes

[gritty rivet]

It's a judgement call about your relationship with them and how much you care about it. If you didn't schedule this time off prior to putting in your notice it's kind of a bad look to use it now but it's also kind of your right to do it of they won't let you cash them out

[frosty sail]

ya they definitely should recompense you for that PTO if you don't take it before leaving

[light radish]

They are compensating for my PTO for this year but these 3 days are rollover from the previous year which we cannot cash out. Usually at work you don't have to give a notice ahead of time for using PTO, you can just send an email the night before and say you are taking off

[smoky quest]

I would double check on your employment contract. I would receive a check for the hourly rate of my unused PTO if leaving a company

[edgy flicker]

do CS undergrads usually get jobs quickly out of college or uni?

[frosty sail]

yes. edit: answer may depend on your personal definition of the word "quickly"

[gilded valley]

Depends on too many factors to be able to give a reasonable answer

[light radish]

I was signing my paperwork today and my official job title is Senior Python Developer. I am not senior level at all lol, this is my first real python job haha

[edgy flicker]

Within a month

[frosty sail]

oh. Then no.

Probably. A month is very fast to find a job. I'd say from my personal experiences around 95% of engineering college graduates find a job within six months. edit: I'm in the USA

[vapid jay]

which lesson would you choose ? why ?

[edgy flicker]

even with an internship prior to graduating?

[frosty sail]

Yeah. Getting a job is a big commitment, both for you and the potential employer. A lot of people are involved, a lot of small and big decisions have to be made. Obviously if you have say a previous internship that went well, maybe that employer has already thought about it and can make those decisions quickly. But if you're a brand new applicant, there's a lot that needs to happen on the employer's end to set up interview, interview, debrief interview, talk to HR, whatever. Things take time.

[smoky quest]

Time to meet the recruiter and discuss, time to do a filtering pass, time to do a panel interview or other interviews, time to get an offer... That can add up quickly

[edgy flicker]

I see. Ok then.

[smoky quest]

There will be multiple days in between each of these steps. And the company may not even reach back to you for a week from the day of your initial application

[gritty rivet]

That's awesome, will look great on the resume :)

[gritty rivet]

Definitely Construction Law because I like buildings and stuff

J/k... It really depends on what you want to do, what interests you, etc.

[pure raft]

Is going to college online way worse than in person? Assuming for a cs degree in my situation

[vapid jay]

Do you NEED a CS degree for a job?

[pure raft]

It seems to be the consensus here and other places I’ve asked that it’s pretty much a requirement for an entry level job

I’ve only been studying programming since December

[sullen ether]

college is by no means a requirement for a job in it. especially if you have skills

[pure raft]

A lot of people I’ve spoken to says it’s extremely extremely difficult to get an entry level position without one, even provided the skills

[hushed kestrel]

I don't have a CS degree and I have a programming job in big tech

I pretend to have a degree. I know a number of people who got 100k + jobs in tech without a degree at all.

[sullen ether]

@hushed kestrel what are some good companies to start applying for with 2 yrs experience in IT and programming knowledge / AWS certs

[hushed kestrel]

Don't know. 😄 . I don't know where you are based. My experience has taught me the way to get jobs is to...

1. Get a recruiter. Recruiters talk to hiring managers directly and bypass HR quite a bit which means you get more visibility instead of being just a resume.
2. Stalk Hiring managers at companies you want to work at by looking at their ineterests/linkedin and get very good at writing Emails + submitting resumes to them directly

[frosty sail]

having a degree is not necessary to work in software, but it makes getting that first job or two easier. Once you have a few years of work experience, nobody really cares what your education is unless you're working somewhere domain knowledge is relevant - medicine, physics, whatever.

[hushed kestrel]

Never apply on a company website. That is where Resumes go to die.

(Maybe startups are an exception to this.)

[sullen ether]

these are two invaluable recommendations. thank you sir

[pure raft]

Oh damn bless you fam wow

[smoky quest]

yeah, without a degree, you would have a real hard time, not just getting a job but also missing on opportunities

[hushed kestrel]

This is so true. Not having a degree doesn't kill you, but you will struggle when others get open doors.

[pure raft]

Gotcha, okay so does me getting a bachelors online destroy me? I teach during the day

[smoky quest]

Employers won't care if you got it online or irl.
The only question is whether it's a BS or not.

That said, there are some benefits to having some irl portion as it's easier to connect with your classmates and benefits from the students' life. They will also be your first professional network.
But if you are already working, then these benefits may not be so important if your coworkers are also in tech

[hushed kestrel]

It depends on what you want out of your education.

College does more than just give a degree. It is a space to explore and understand yourself, ideas, and society. You can get a degree for a job if that is your goal, but I would say there are better routs than getting a degree for a job.

For me, I can leverage my ability to work really hard and improve very fast through self study to ensure that my career doesn't plateau. I am also putting off kids to advance my career.

It depends on where you want to be in how many years with what salary expectations. You shouldn't treat a degree as a prerequisite for a job unless you want to work in very high competitive fields.

If you are poor, college is very important as it gives you a chance to understand what normalcy looks like- helps you understand what resources you have available to you, and lifts you up in a way that you wouldn't expect vis-a-vis your class mates and teachers willing to help you.

[pure raft]

Such great points!! Yeah I just turned 30, had been working in entertainment for a while, and I just don’t want this type of lifestyle anymore. I want something boring, and stable, and to be able to live comfortably, take care of my parents and not worry about $ or the future

[hushed kestrel]

For reference even though I am really close to having a degree (i don't have one) I had to work really hard and apply/move all over the bay area for each job. Only after 3-4 years of on-the-job experience do I have the freedom to select which jobs I will take

[smoky quest]

And you are one of the lucky ones! So congrats!

[hushed kestrel]

1. Keep track of your time then optimize where you spend your time.
2. Forgive yourself for mistakes. Try not to repeat your mistakes.
3. Make sure you have a good group of people around you to check your assumptions
4. Work hard. Very hard.
5. Treat yourself well.

I have just helped someone with zero college experience who was working as a barista / hotel cleaning staff manager get into tech in less than a year going from 40k -> 80k. It's not impossible, but they did break down in the shower a few times

[frosty sail]

To be fair, a lot of people break down in the shower as a result of the intensity of college/university. Sounds pretty intense to follow such a strict learning regime w\o external driving forces tho, I'm much impressed.

[smoky quest]

yeah, lot's of kids think skipping college will save time and effort, but it can end up being a route way more difficult in the end

[pure raft]

@hushed kestrel I love this, I gotta be honest when I decide to go in on something I’m extremely intense too so I get it

[sullen ether]

yes, especially when tik tok and influencers will sell you the "dream life" and promise so much to their fans if they just drop out and do what they did

[frosty sail]

"I applied GPT-3 to news data and bought 100 shares of GME, now I'm rich! Be like me"

[vital skiff]

@light radishlol good luck with it, hope you enjoy it, sounds like a title I would be aspire to!

[raw plank]

Degrees, certs, experience, etc. is all about helping someone sort resumes into stacks. There is the "Nope" stack, meaning there isn't anything of interest, and the "Yep" stack, meaning review the resume again for whatever reason. If a person has some experience, I may or may not care about a degree or a cert or any of that. If a person does NOT have experience, I have to have a reason to dive deeper, right? So if no experience, I go to that degree or cert. Once a person is in the "Yep" stack I may call ALL of them, or not, depending on how big the stack is. If the stack is too large to contact everybody, I then read the resume, look at experience, certs and degrees, and whatever else this person has added to put them in the "Contact" stack. The rest I put in the "Maybe" stack in case the "Contact" stack doesn't pan out.

In theory, I'd only want a handful of qualified people for the position I'm looking for and can spend time making a great decision. It doesn't always work out that way.

The only reason I would EVER actually care about a degree is if I'm hiring for a gov't contractor position, where sometimes the pay scale is affected by it, and maybe even REQUIRED.

[grand turtle]

is it worth to take a entry-level certification on python??

[near ocean]

generally not, which one are you thinking of

[grand turtle]

OpenEDG Python Institute Certifications

is the associate level hard?

[near ocean]

syllabus for associate looks like the standard beginner course tbh, do you pay for these?

[ancient star]

Unrelated: Just finished my introductory level python class. (sorry just stoker I passed.)

Stoked*

[grand turtle]

yes. its pretty cheap tbh

[hushed kestrel]

There are a lot of 'schools' who claim to give certifiactions for python competency. The problem is that there is no real industry standard for these things and mostly it is just a way to push people through a 8-12 week bootcamp to pass a test and be on your way.

There is a website that is good for these things, but the site tests your knowledge and then acts as recruiters for you for various jobs.

IMHO your time is better spent 1. Practicing studying / directly emailing managers with your resume + projects you've worked on

[grand turtle]

Entry-Level - 59usd

[hushed kestrel]

I've had 2 certificates on my resume. No one has ever asked me about them in an interview. I have always had to bring them up.

[grand turtle]

ohhh. I see, thanks.

[hushed kestrel]

Maybe what it does is signal to the hiring manager that you are willing to go above-beyond to get 'qualified' or something

But you'd be better served being able to show someone your github repo IMHO. (FYI github repo is only relevant if you are emailing the technical hiring manager directly. HR is dumb and only cares about certain things)

[hushed kestrel]

As a side note. Boot camps were ALL the rage like, 5-7 years ago. In so far as I've been in the bay area / programming space I haven't heard anyone in industry talk about bootcamps with respect, nor have I heard of anyone who has gone through one of those things recommend anyone to do so.

[grand turtle]

the thing is that i dont really have much ideas for python projects

[hushed kestrel]

What level of python are you at

[grand turtle]

begginer-ish

[hushed kestrel]

"automate the boring stuff" <- Is full of little modules you could easily build projects out of. You can automate email systems, reports, control your GUI, scrape website data, launch programs, ect ect

Webscrape a site that you like their content that automatically downloads it to your computer

Update a google sheet with the data you've downloaded, it's size, ect

[raw plank]

Bootcamps are great if you are looking to jumpstart your learning. If you use it as such and then continue that hard-core studying on your own, then it's good.

[hushed kestrel]

I've heard of this. I might only conceded that it could help if you are someone who NEEDS the classroom learning environment. I would recommend doing MIT opencourseware instead...but ya.

[raw plank]

Agreed.

[hushed kestrel]

Typically bootcamps cost 10-15k (at least where I am from, from what I know) that they expect you to pay them back with part of your first job's salary

[raw plank]

If you have gone through a language already, you can learn another. If you are new, you may need the guided version.

[hushed kestrel]

And in practice what happened is that people will teach at bootcamps to help pay the bootcamp back

[grand turtle]

thx for the ideas @hushed kestrel

[raw plank]

For example, I'm learning Python right now. However, I've been through several other languages so it's no big deal, just focused practice and playing.

[grand turtle]

so a portfolio is more important than certifications right?

[brittle thorn]

What worked for them might not work for you, best to follow your interests and forge your own path...

[brittle thorn]

Lol you can start your own coding bootcamp

[hushed kestrel]

The certificate only matters to the person who thinks the certificate matters. Check and see if the certificate actually matters by asking people in industry- in jobs you'd like to have if that certificate matters. (I am saying it doesn't, but I could be wrong. (I mean, I'm not wrong, but I want to at least make it explicit that you don't need to take my word for it.))

Portfolio will do two things.

1. Make you better at programming
2. Show hiring managers what kind of work they can get out of you.

(Remember, only technical hiring managers care about your github)

[hushed kestrel]

I have been considering this for a little bit. I would have to charge too much 😦

But maybe I should. I got a few people much much higher paying jobs.

[summer roost]

generally, yes - but if you can afford the time and money to get a degree, that would be much more valuable.

[brittle thorn]

Yeah you should maybe do a pilot scale test first ..then if ok scale it..
.Train trainers then let them do the bootcamp for you...You will be helping others

[brittle thorn]

Actually all good advice

Especially about having friends who will check assumptions...

[hushed kestrel]

I said this because it is important, but I realize that this itself isn't complete advice. My and your friends are also idiots who don't know how to perform this task. There are very few people in society that can actually do this for anyone @_@

It's hard to make use of friends for this, which hasn't been properly communicated just by me saying it

[brittle thorn]

Yes select a good group that can fulfill that role...

Hard to find these people lol

[hushed kestrel]

Well. The problem is that the advice isn't in the form that is actionable. To find a group that can check assumptions is to say you need to find a group that can look at your math analysis of a situation, provide critical feedback, and contribute in a productive manner.

You'll be stunned how many times when you talk to someone and they realize you are a serious person trying to do things in this world that they just tell you. "You should do what I've done." Lawyers, programmers, managers- whoever gives that advice.

[brittle thorn]

Lol same

[hushed kestrel]

Most people don't account for what makes individuals different and can't tailor advice to how people are.

[brittle thorn]

They filter it through their own set of life experiences

[hushed kestrel]

Experiences/expectations/education/capabilities

[brittle thorn]

Yep

[raw plank]

Good words, Sinthrill.

[hushed kestrel]

(I know you weren't being exhaustive. I just thought I'd add things)

[brittle thorn]

Appreciated

[lyric dune]

After learning basics of python whats a good next step

[gritty rivet]

Learn something less basic... Whatevwr is interesting or useful to you

[brittle thorn]

Try to learn commonly used python libraries

[smoky quest]

You may also be interested in https://roadmap.sh/ for ideas

[weak sparrow]

Hi!

Python vs Ruby?

[near ocean]

obviously python, this is a python server

[pulsar drum]

I am under the impression that Ruby has dropped off in popularity. Have the jobs for it shown a similar trend? When I think of Ruby I think of like 10 to 12 years ago.

[shy current]

Im taking the pcpp (Certified professional in python) today. From what I've heard it's pretty hard. Do any of you have tips?

[gritty rivet]

Don't waste your time... I have yet to see any employer that values it. It would be a much better use of your time to build your portfolio projects

[shy current]

while that may be true, im already taking it today, and i've studied really hard for it. My dad really wants me to get this cert also for college (Im 13)

[gritty rivet]

Ah, I see. Is there an outline of exam objectives? Have you done any practice exams? Good luck in any case!

[shy current]

Yes there is a list of exam objectives, and there is 1 practice test. I've gone over the practice test many times so I can't do it again (I've memorized all of the answers by now). I know all of the concepts of the exam but I don't know if I am thorough in them enough.

[frosty sail]

well then sounds like you're as ready as you're going to be for today's test

[cobalt plank]

Serious question guys, skillsync or jobscan? Which website is best for matching keywords in your resume to the job description so you can beat the ATS?

[pastel thunder]

It i approached a professor of XYZ University(not my university) in-person for research work and worked under him to publish a paper...should i refer it as a research internship at XYZ University in my resumes....or is it misleading/unethical?

[gritty rivet]

It's not unethical if you discuss it with the author... Or better yet, maybe they are willing to list you as a coauthor if your contribution warrants that. A publication is more impressive then an internship

[vapid jay]

what is the best IDE for u?

[gritty rivet]

Wrong channel, try #editors-ides

[hushed kestrel]

For colleges it would be great to prove you know programming and to actually get recognized for a programming accomplishment before college.

[rough badge]

Hi y'all - I just wrote my first article about scraping data on Medium and I would love some feedback. Writing this as part of a BI portfolio to help in my job search.
https://medium.com/@sanlaville.remy/a-fedex-scraper-and-geolocation-display-with-python-2197991e83fa

let me know what you think!

[frosty sail]

Were you an undergrad at the time?

[summer roost]

Good luck 🙂

[summer roost]

Why would colleges care if you know programming?

[hushed kestrel]

I've read some feedback papers from college boards on how they evaluate students and they stress a bit that they look at students in terms of grades but they are actually pretty heavily influenced by their extra-circular activities.

You'll look at college admission folk and they'll say things like "They should put down that they worked a job while going through high school." or if they are doing clubs they should let the board know things about the students that gives a more well-rounded picture of the student.

If I looked at two students with similar grades except one knows programming, would I draw a positive inference on that individual for their ability to achieve academic success? If you accept the student who has been doing programming for 5 years, what sort of student will they be? Will they take computer science? Will they succeed at getting a degree? They already have a support network that promotes this activity.

Doing hard projects is totally something college cares about. College boards also don't care that much that the certificate actually means very little. It's more important that you show the college board that you can get these things than that the certificate means anything because whatever the certificate the student has will be superseded by the importance of going to school and what that represents. So in short they don't necessarily care how full of crap the certificate program you went through is.

[summer roost]

Sure, but from that point of view it would be no better than any other extracurricular, like girl scouts or the like

[shy current]

Thanks, about to take it in 15 min

[hushed kestrel]

That could be true. If you are an Eagle Scout (Highest rank of boy scouts), some people would think that's pretty awesome.

I think colleges want stem students and people who want to go into stem. The college acceptance board will vary depending on the college/culture/whatever.

I would guess that most college boards would view programming more favorably than girl scouts. *** The only cavate I would say is that as a candidate you can say confidently "I've been in girl scouts for 10 years" where as if you say "I've been programming for 10 years." no one really knows what that means for programming. They could think you mean by that is that you have been writing 1 program once every 3 months and it would be true where as girl scouts you need to attend weekly meetings for 10 years involving other people.

If you had a programming camp where you could get a letter of rec from a tutor, programming would go farther than girlscouts IMHO

[ancient star]

"We will also assume that you have a basic knowledge of Python and the Pandas library. Which is probably why you got so many lovers to start with." Hahahahaha

[summer roost]

I think colleges want stem students and people who want to go into stem.
Even for non-STEM programs? That doesn't make sense to me.

[brittle thorn]

This is good news ... Extra curricular activities shows the students have an interest in a topic or field since they choose to do it. Yeah I had lots of extracurriculars myself in HS and Uni

Looking at a person via GPA only is limiting

[hushed kestrel]

Colleges don't expect you to declare your intended major at the point of application. I agree colleges are trying to create a 'class of students' that conform has a mix of entrepreneurs, business people, stem, whatever. In that case, sure, if you have 99% of incoming students being CS, there is probably some issue. But usually it is harder to get people into stem than to get people to take humanities I think.

[olive charm]

Idk if this would be the right place to ask this but I want to work in the field of artificial intelligence and my intent is to go through the Computer Systems Engineering program at Carleton University since as back ups for my career path I'd like to either go into computer science or Engineering in general, basically I like the idea of bringing software and physical objects together. In preparation for this path I did some research and found that Python is a big player in the AI space so that's what brought me around to learning it. Am I on the right path as far as where my end goal should be for getting into it or am I missing something?

[peak halo]

I work as an AI researcher in the United States. My company probably would not hire you for a AI-related position if your degree is in computer system engineering, as my understanding is that that discipline is about software architecture rather than the theory that relates to AI.

[olive charm]

Hmmm so what education would you need? because according to the program summary it says "Computer systems engineers combine hardware and software to design and implement integrated computer systems for applications in such areas as robotics, artificial intelligence, aerospace and avionic systems, multimedia applications and cloud computing. Carleton’s program will enable you to learn how to engineer complex systems based on computers and acquire an understanding of computers as integrated software/hardware systems."

[peak halo]

implement integrated computer systems for applications in such areas ... artificial intelligence
That doesn't mean that you'd be the one designing the artificial intelligence. That requires a great deal of knowledge that would be out-of-scope for a degree program that also involves implementing systems for "robotics, aerospace and avionic systems, multimedia applications and cloud computing".

[olive charm]

true. So what would you say is a better path?

Also since you're actually in the field, is it as interesting as it seems it is? Like many people who have gotten into programming I once wanted to be a game developer and then I realized how awful that industry is as a worker (or at least in my opinion) so I decided that that was definitely not the path for me

[peak halo]

I'm a bit of a special case because I landed my current position with only a bachelors degree, but with prior coursework in linguistics and significant hands-on experience with natural language processing. The hands-on experience was a lot of work, but I only had that opportunity in the first place because of luck. If I were religious, I would thank God every day.

If you want a job that involves artificial intelligence, you need to pick a degree program that involves tangible experience developing AI.

[peak halo]

What is your current perception about what AI is? because it's mostly abstract math stuff.

[graceful mason]

I like the idea of bringing software and physical objects together
if you're thinking of robotics here, it's worth keeping in mind that there are many different layers to robotics e.g. data -> controller -> firmware -> electronics
AI is likely to be represented in data/controller, so it's very possible to work on AI related to a robot without ever actually interacting with the hardware. Not sure if that's what you're aiming for by what you said

[olive charm]

Uh mostly that it's a lot of running and refining algorithms to produce the most efficient results possible but I could be mistaken on that. I know that it's a lot of math

[peak halo]

the word "efficient" is thrown around a lot. it sounds like what you really mean is "accurate"

[olive charm]

I mean efficient in the sense of getting it as accurate as possible without overfitting, like in the sense that you can grind and grind and grind and only get like 0.2% increased accuracy.

[peak halo]

I would not use the word "efficient" to describe what you have just said.

[olive charm]

Lol well that's why you're in the field and I'm not 😛

[peak halo]

anyway, I ask because a lot of people think that AI is like, Jarvis, or something

the way AI is portrayed in media is way overhyped. And then the media overlooks how AI is actually making the world better in real life.

[olive charm]

like from Ironman? No I know we're a long ways from getting anything close to a "sentient" AI

[peak halo]

Yes. And I would argue that if we did achieve a "sentient AI", we would see just how not sentient it is.

though that's off-topic

[olive charm]

I am not quite sure what robotics involves in reality, when I think of robotics I think of like battlebots, or factory robotic arms that build stuff, that kind of stuff.

[peak halo]

Anyway, to give you practical advice for now: do you know what sorts of companies you might want to work for? you might look at their job listings and see what their requirements are.

and then you can work backwards to see what universities have programs that would help you fulfill those requirements.

[olive charm]

That, I have no idea. I have no idea what I want to do as far as applications for it. I'm just interested in the applications that have/are being developed in all aspects that I've seen them

What initially got me interested in AI/Machine learning in general was the team that created the Dota 2 bots that were able to compete and beat professionals. But like that application isn't really a realistic end goal, I don't think there are really many uses of that type of AI that are financially viable.

I also find self-driving cars to be an interesting use of the technology, as it is using AI to control something physical. I mean many of the things that I've found interesting as far as AI goes are really impractical as far as making money off of it, and if you can't make money off of it then it's unlikely that there will be employment doing it.

[dense mesa]

You may like systems engineering

[olive charm]

Which is why I tend to lean mostly towards the kind of using AI to control something because that to me seems to have more marketability than what I'm truly interested in, which is making AI that will learn to do stupid shit xD

[dense mesa]

I'm studying systems/general engineering and have self taught machine learning & deep learning for my 3rd year project

[olive charm]

is systems engineering different than computer systems engineering or is that just shorthand?

[dense mesa]

You don't need AI for control if you have good control theory 👁️👁️

[dense mesa]

CSE is hardware focused, systems engineering is everything that could be a system

[olive charm]

what is a system then lol?

[olive charm]

idk what control theory is either

[dense mesa]

There's many definitions, loosely speaking it's a collection of interrelated but independent parts working together to fulfill a mission that they couldn't achieve individually

[olive charm]

Lol seems like perhaps I am way off of the mark as to what I should be studying, or I am not understanding the overall jist

[dense mesa]

Anything that has a feedback loop will have some basic control theory. A lot of the stuff that gets associated with AI/ML/DL is usually just good control theory

I'm oversimplifying a lot, and anyone else who studies engineering will hopefully understand why

[olive charm]

Isn't DL part of ML which is part of AI?

Do you mind if I DM you? This slow mode is annoying xD

[dense mesa]

I don't study CS but DL involves automatic feature extraction based on a cost function afaik, ML uses predefined features

Just message here for now, I'm about to sleep but happy to help tomorrow

[olive charm]

So what are you hoping to apply your education to on the other end of schooling?

[dense mesa]

Transfer learning, my project is on using it to transfer CNNs for facial expression recognition and I think there's a lot of application

If you want a marketable skill, I would highly recommend learning how neural networks are constructed in terms of neurons, layers, weights etc. Then learn how to transfer them from one problem domain to another

[olive charm]

what are CNNs? Lol I tried to google it but obviously a bit of an issue with that one xD

[dense mesa]

There's loads of research from the past few years of people being able to solve difficult problems using transfer learning, as there wasn't enough data or whatever initially

[olive charm]

ahhh found it

[dense mesa]

Convolutional Neural Networks, it's a very popular way of classifying image inputs nowadays

This is a very rough description, but they essentially "scan" through an image, find features which represent the image, then downscale/downsample/pool the image repeatedly until only the main features are visible

[olive charm]

I'm still confused as to like how CSE and SE differ, like I get 1 is about hardware but what does your system run on if not hardware? o.O

[dense mesa]

The downside is that CNNs required a huge amount of labelled input data if you don't want much bias and/or variance (the bias variance tradeoff is annoying so I won't talk about it), but you can transfer existing CNN models/network weights and then fine-tune them onto another problem

[dense mesa]

An airport is a system, a car is a system, a battery is a system, a lot of things can be defined as a system and therefore need systems engineering and systems thinking to approach them

For example, intelligent systems may involve computer vision, pattern recognition, machine learning etc

https://www.sebokwiki.org/wiki/Guide_to_the_Systems_Engineering_Body_of_Knowledge_(SEBoK)

It's really good you know you wanna learn more about AI, I would recommend looking at traditional machine learning first (such as PCA) and getting a feel for the maths needed

[olive charm]

but in all of those situations does it not also run on hardware? Like you can't implement AI on the actual building of an airport?

[dense mesa]

https://www.coursera.org/learn/machine-learning

[olive charm]

Lol nvm I'm dumb. It's not about using AI on all those, it's that all of them are systems and need to be planned and designed xD

[dense mesa]

All good man, I had no idea about any of this stuff before uni. As long as you learn bit by bit it'll make sense

[olive charm]

Andrew Ng seems to be a bit of a legend in the field, I find him popping up everywhere when trying to learn this stuff.

[dense mesa]

What is your current level of maths like? It's not necessary to know much for getting started, but is very helpful later

My (highly biased) recommendation would be to learn about machine learning and traditional methods of cost function optimisation first

Then learn about deep learning and neural networks, basically why do we just let the model decide the features rather than specifying them

[olive charm]

Not super great but I'm working on improving it, I didn't take highschool very seriously so I took low level maths going through school and now am going back through and getting the academic versions. I find it quite easy to learn, I am able to understand math pretty easily it's just more of me going through and gaining that knowledge atm.

[dense mesa]

And if you want the big bucks, how to do transfer learning. As in, taking a model that was trained on large input data, and using that to apply it to a more niche subfield

[olive charm]

is this coursera course just always running or is it a coincidence that it starts today?

[dense mesa]

Tbh you don't need to know too much, only if you're going for research-level optimisation of accuracy/recognition/whatever

[dense mesa]

Always running, I haven't done it personally but everyone recommends it so I wish I did it first

[olive charm]

Lol well I need it to get accepted to the program that I was going for xD

[dense mesa]

What's the program?

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26886976/

[olive charm]

it was Computer Systems Engineering, I had planned on going through the Computer Science program which required that. And I believe I needed computer science (or a few other degrees) to get into Computer Systems Engineering

[dense mesa]

If you wanna do ai then don't do cse

[olive charm]

One thing I'm really not knowledge about is post secondary school, lol there are so many different terms that are used that I have no idea what they are or mean. Like masters, bachelors, undergraduate, graduate, like wtf are the difference between them all? xD

[dense mesa]

Bachelor's is undergrad

[olive charm]

I'm trying to find an accredited systems engineering program on https://engineerscanada.ca/accreditation/accredited-programs/institution and am on like the 4th or 5th page and still can't find one o.O

[dense mesa]

Masters postgraduate, but it's not too important

[dense mesa]

I think it's only a thing in the UK, I would be looking at CS, software engineering or something like automation engineering

[olive charm]

Finally found one.... but it was only from 1981 - 1983 and in Regina when I'm in Ontario xD

[dense mesa]

👀 just go for cs, I should have

[olive charm]

ooo found Systems Design... wonder if that's the same