career-advice

[vapid jay]

its a lot more flexible in the software world

at least that's what it seems from the outside looking in, way more options

[summer roost]

there are more programming languages than there are subfields of engineering. Software dev gets way more granular.

[vapid jay]

for example there are more opportunities on indeed for python dev ALONE than there are opportunities for mechanical and civil positions COMBINED

[sterile vault]

Numpy/Scipy/matplotlib libraries were inspired by Matlab a lot.

[vapid jay]

yes but you want to learn actual programming not "matlab but in python"

matlab teaches you really bad coding habits

[smoky quest]

it depends. But generally speaking, the most difficult part is learning your first. The next ones are dramatically easier to pick.
And one thing students get to do in schools is to be exposed to the different ways around programming and associated languages.

For now at your stage, I wouldn't overthink it. Just enjoy the ride and have fun learning

[deft peak]

ola, algum brasileiro aqui??

[summer roost]

!rule 4

[inner wren]

Rules

4. Use English to the best of your ability. Be polite if someone speaks English imperfectly.

[summer roost]

There are different families of languages, and there are many similarities between two languages in the same family.

there's very little similarity between, say, SQL and Python, though.

[deft peak]

nao sei fala inglês

[summer roost]

You can use https://translate.google.com/

[deft peak]

ok, I will communicate through the translator

sql or mysql?

[vapid jay]

you are still using SQL in both lol

[summer roost]

the #career-advice channel is about careers and work. You should ask questions like that in #python-discussion

but mysql is a database, and sql is a programming language that is used with databases (including mysql)

[deft peak]

ok I didn't know that

[vapid jay]

ah yea thats make sense

[vapid jay]

last question for the night, you think having friends that work in software will help me get through the door easier?

[sterile vault]

Not as easy as having CEO uncle, though

[summer roost]

yes, networking is helpful.

[smoky quest]

it increases your connections but you still have the same interviews

[vapid jay]

yea no getting around the leetcode grind

[summer roost]

knowing someone at a company who can vouch for you might get you past HR and ATS's, but you'll still need to interview, yeah.

[vapid jay]

that's the main issue, grinding enough leetcode isn't the hard part

its getting through HR and ATS systems, whats good grinding leetcode if no one thinks im good enough for an interview

[deft peak]

I'm sorry, I'm a beginner in programming/development

[sterile vault]

Different companies may interview differently. For example, at the job I'm starting tomorrow the inteview is basically a culture fit. But that won't fly at Google.

[summer roost]

Knowing software devs can only help (both in terms of helping you get through the door, and in terms of setting expectations for what the job will be like and figuring out what kinds of jobs to apply to)

[slim night]

did they give you a test?

[sterile vault]

Yes, take-home assigment. Simple CLI tool and a small DS notebook.

Probably would've failed live coding leeting, not only because i suck at algo, but because of time pressure.

[vapid jay]

that's the worst part of MEch Eng interviews, they literally give me live problems to solve 😦

[serene kindle]

if you already had the engineering background you could go for jobs that leverage that knowledge

[vapid jay]

one guy literally bust out a whiteboard and had me solve beam problems

[sterile vault]

Civil probably have it worse. "See the building outside the window? ..."

[serene kindle]

i mean, software jobs that leverage that other domain knowledge, since maybe you'd be more likely to get it

[vapid jay]

the main consideration is that many MECH ENG jobs that utilize software dont pay the same as software jobs

[serene kindle]

sometimes even non-programming job quickly turns into programming job just because you had the knowledge

[slim night]

same. I have insane test anxiety and bomb stuff I know inside and out... which has me very concerned about interviewing

[vapid jay]

except maybe robotics

[serene kindle]

no way, when you take many interviews you eventually just get bored/sick of it

oh nvm maybe

[vapid jay]

failing an interview is not the same a failing a test

you can literally apply to 10000 jobs and have 2000 interviews, you only need one job.

[serene kindle]

interviewers are humans so its a bit different i guess

[vapid jay]

i currently at 1000 applications for a mech eng degree and my 20th interview, failed 10

[serene kindle]

yeah its true it doesn't matter how many interviews you fail, i wish i took that to heart earlier. it is insane how you can fail 1000 interviews but still didn't matter if you passed 1

[sterile vault]

Living in US tech hub must be nice. So much choice. I think if I apply a filter to a domain and tech stack to the companies in my city... I think I get 3, and only one is hiring juniors.

[serene kindle]

work remote?

[vapid jay]

well i am literally open to relocation, thats why i get to apply to SO many companies

i just put "united states" and apply to anything that says "mechanical engineer" i dont care if it says 0 or 50 years of experience

worst case scenario is is i get a "no"

[serene kindle]

robotics is very hot and hiring everyone anyway if you like it you could try

[vapid jay]

i bet you if i start applying to a 1000 software jobs with my current mech eng resume ill get at least 10 interviews

[sterile vault]

Well, junior + remote is pretty rare, particularily in healthcare domain where data privacy is a concern.

[vapid jay]

you can put easy apply and apply to 300+ apps a day in linkedin and indeed

[sterile vault]

I don't think I've seen a single remote opening I'd consider sending my resume to, because the ones I saw wanted seniors.

[vapid jay]

the most i applied in 1 day was 200 jobs

[slim night]

did you do 200 cover letters as well?

[vapid jay]

lol no sending them the same resume and cover letter

[serene kindle]

i don't believe in the cover letter theory because i think in the end, they just look at skills

[vapid jay]

i have 8 interviews between monday and friday of next week, i have 5 interviews a week

every week 10 more companies contact me because of the sheer volume of applications that i am sending.

this only applies to entry level, when you dont have experience the only way is to MASS apply

[slim night]

do you ever hear back about why you didn't get the position?

[serene kindle]

no

[vapid jay]

nah just generic auto emails saying "we went with a different candidate at this time"

[serene kindle]

most of them didn't even reply at all

[vapid jay]

you should never rely on just one interview, even if you have 10 interviews you have to keep applying until you have a job offer

i have 8 interviews and im still sending applications

[slim night]

I had an interview on Tuesday for a contracted VBA coding position and was told I was a "rockstar" but that my unavailability during the workday (because of my current lab job) was a major concern

[vapid jay]

if it pays more than your lab i'd dump it

[slim night]

it was only for 12 months tho

[vapid jay]

hm

well if you start searching for a job the day you enter that new contract ytou'd be in a good position

[smoky quest]

also having multiple interviews means higher chances of having multiple offers and that's an effective way to drive your compensation higher

[slim night]

I would probably start 3 months before the end of the contract but I see you point 😛

[vapid jay]

thats what many people do, and many companies internally hire after a contract for which you can use an offer to your advantage

[slim night]

Uncertainty just makes me scared. I'm not a gambler

yeah

[vapid jay]

ah yea those are worse i had a couple of w2 contracts that i didn't care for

they typically pay more with less job security

[slim night]

one of the questions I needed to answer on Indeed was "how do you deal with difficult people" which.... was maybe a red flag?

[vapid jay]

i had one question that was like "what drives you" on an easy apply application, immediately trashed that BS

[slim night]

I'm going to start shotgunning Easy Applies

[vapid jay]

any company that says anything like "you are a family to us" or "tell us about what drives you" is a major red flag, its the type that offers pizza fridays as a replacement for giving you healthcare benefits

[slim night]

ohhhh I am familiar with r/antiwork content

[vapid jay]

whats that

[slim night]

https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/

[vapid jay]

ah not familiar I only ever visit my former university's sub and r/cscareerquestions

[smoky quest]

While I do agree about the family part, understanding a candidate's motivation is rather important

[vapid jay]

I had a interview where the interviewer started telling me how the CEO hates corporate america and treats his workers like a family. She then proceeded to tell me about the 50 hour work week from 8 am to 6 pm every day. Yea no thanks, i'd rather be a cog in a corporate machine and work a 9-5 with benefits.

[slim night]

my motivation is to continually learn new skills and apply them, and to provide for myself and my children

[slim night]

yep

[vapid jay]

This is why im trying to get into a big company

[slim night]

I really want to ask for a raise at work but my manager gets angry at every little thing

[vapid jay]

Idk why hating corporate america is a bragging point for a small company that makes their workers work 50 hours a week

[slim night]

and if she says "no", I don't want the atmosphere to be even weirder than it is now

[vapid jay]

and best of all, its a salaried position is no overtime...

[smoky quest]

right, and they would also have no qualms getting rid of you if it were to increase their bonus.
But still very different from understanding your motivation

[vapid jay]

see my motivation is selfish, i always try to sorta BS my way through that question in interviews

[smoky quest]

Because typically, large companies are "lifestyle company" where little get done

[smoky quest]

It's really an easy question though. Not even tricky as long as the candidate doesn't pull a "I like M0n3y"

[vapid jay]

I prefer that, I aspire to have a nice work-life balance

[slim night]

I changed a macro I wrote to highlight cells in which there was a ">" because it indicated the sampled needed to be diluted and run again. I asked a coworker is she thought such a change to the data output would be beneficial, and she said yes. When my boss got back from vacation and ran the macro, she got angry because the highlighted cells "weren't what [she] was expecting" and "I should have asked her before I changed the macro"

[vapid jay]

I usually say self improvement

[smoky quest]

yeah and that's fine as an answer

[slim night]

my macro didn't do anything except literally change the cell to yellow if the cell had a > in it

[vapid jay]

the thing that always gets me is "greatest weakness" i just say that i don't have experience but idk if its a good answer

i try to avoid the BS answers like "Im tOo MuCh Of A PeRfEcTiOnIsT!"

[smoky quest]

There are also stories about gamedev where they just literally changed the sound effect and the users got happier as they thought the hits were stronger

[smoky quest]

oh yeah, that one is a shitty question. You learn nothing from it.

[slim night]

In the interview for my current job, they asked that, and I said, "sometimes I ask too many questions"
Then they asked "what is your greatest strength" and I said "sometimes I ask too many questions"

[brittle thorn]

Oh hi again.... likewise

[vapid jay]

Most people pull up some BS story about how they just work too hard lol

[frozen gate]

I thought for that question you’re supposed to name a genuine weakness and how you’re working on fixing it—answers that are fake weaknesses like working too hard sound too insincere and you don’t want to name a real weakness that’s unflattering

[smoky quest]

don't give the stick to be beaten with

[brittle thorn]

This is true and how I learned to code in general.. Lots of personal projects in the beginning with graphics and file handlling in C and Pascal.

[vapid jay]

well not having experience is a real weakness lol, i work to fix it by gaining experience, obviously ill never say fake BS like "I'm a perfectionist!"

[brittle thorn]

Consider this your niche... maybe market this as a service to other labs similar to yours.. My library data conversion service which was part time and free lance started as a in Uni project when they bought a MARC complaint library package but our existing system was in a different format and fields or data tags had to be remapped. I did it for the Uni when the vendor had no economical solution and then the vendor then subcontracted all library data conversion to me...It was the perfect introvert gig . The vendor was client facing ..i got the data via dial up (lol) or floppy or CDs then sent it back via email or online drives or CDs .

Dont omit just tone down on detail for positions that arent relevant to the position. I also taught in High School btw for a year and done Research and Testing Lab work. I list them for a Dev CV but dont elaborate on them

Lol I know some with a upper middle class upbringing that isnt motivated by money

It is all useful look at the life of Steve Jobs and how he melded Tech and the Humanities in the Mac... without a course he took on typography we wont have font typefaces as we know them today

[slim night]

I hear that, but I don't have any idea how to start/where to market my services

[brittle thorn]

Be patient...finding the right fit is hard for oddballs like us lol

Do it

Why are we so alike lol I wasnt social in HS too

[slim night]

Should I post something on Upwork that I can take output from instruments and convert them to formatted Excel workbooks for labs?

[brittle thorn]

Ah this is where we differ...being a male introvert made it hard for me to start a family ever.. too shy for dates...

[slim night]

I don't have the skill to build my own website and I certainly don't have the knowledge needed to navigate an LLC formation

[slim night]

I lived in the "nerd dorm" so the dating pool was almost dropped in my lap. But no, I never made the first move

[brittle thorn]

I did write it down ...transparency is important ...if you do freelance while employed like I have done make sure your superiors are aware.

The difference is it is less fun more messy and deadlines

See more messy

Like me lol

[atomic apex]

depends. idk if im jumping in with missing context but it can vary.

[brittle thorn]

On top of the base language changes...the libraries and where the language is used changes too its a good thing it means the language is alive and adapting unlike some once popular languages

[brittle thorn]

Used both matlab and Python ...ah yes

[vapid jay]

its baffling they still teach that in most ABET universities considering nobody gives a crap about matlab outside academia

Python's syntax is much simpler to teach and much more useful

[brittle thorn]

Ah yeah My uni ABET too

[vapid jay]

the real reason is $$$$

[brittle thorn]

Still waiting lol

[brittle thorn]

Start with the core code then see if you can partner with people with the skill sets you need..i did try startups but not succeed but then startups are likely to fail and you learn..Learn from others...choose your partners wisely

[brittle thorn]

You may, I never used that platform but know a few that succeeded in it.

[slim night]

Just checked out Fiverr, and the freelance market for VBA coding looks saturated!

[brittle thorn]

It is why i dont use those platforms..
You need to work in a niche in which you can win

[brittle thorn]

Try porting portions of your VBA to python to learn Python and make the app a bit more future proof

[slim night]

good idea

[brittle thorn]

They probably teach the tools and gloss over the maths

Yep worked with a few MEs in my career too in Robotics

[brittle thorn]

Lol a scientist indeed

[brittle thorn]

Its like asking superman about kryptonite lol

[thick juniper]

I need to find a job before I'd have time to get the Georgia Tech MS for family reasons. Would it still be worth doing part time after I got thr job? Do you think it better to do locally (i.e. in person) if it's cheaper/my company would pay for it?

[vapid jay]

hard to imagine anything cheaper than GTech unless you live outside the US

cant tell which one is better though

[thick juniper]

That's great to know, thank you. The specific contrast is what helped me there.

[smoky quest]

every option is on the table.
I know some folks who did do their MS after being in a job for a few years. Sometimes for personal reasons or to expand the type of jobs they want to do.

The main issues are more related to the fact it's hard to stop once you start making money and it's also difficult to find time to have a job, a family and school, all at once

[thick juniper]

Notice what Discord you're on. These guys are great (helped me a helluva lot), but asking 'is Python a good starting language' on a Python server might bias the responses.

Yeah, I recently looked at an "easy" Leetecode, and I didn't even understand the grammar of the question.

[thick juniper]

Definitely. I've been going flat-out for months now. But I don't want to get stuck as a code monkey either.

[kind oar]

the DS one?

[thick juniper]

People were talking about it earlier. Here's the url: https://omscs.gatech.edu/

[kind oar]

I've read good stuff about their OMSA one for analytics, people are pleased with it, they say even the degree doesn't say online or anything, exactly like the in person one.

But personally, I think masters biggest values is networking and internships makeover.

but I guess if it is just to tick a checkmark at some application it could work, especially since it is more flexible than in person one.

[brittle thorn]

If your code targets some standard niche format it could be more marketable...start thinking also as to how you would price your service

[kind oar]

forming an llc is pretty simple, few hundred bucks, and taxes are mostly handled with your personal ones anyways.
but depends on state of course.

[brittle thorn]

Before expanding or doing that thou do check in with other labs if they have a similar setup and issues and what other data handling issues they may have

[kind oar]

since you're american, I'd advice you to stay away from freelancing sites.

but you can do few gigs on upwork for experience, won't be worth your time, but might buy you a few cups of coffee.

[kind oar]

I'd say the opposite.

the more niche it is, the less marketable but less competition, when pricing an automation scripts you want it to be a task that is too manual, important, and not many alternatives/competing solutions.

[brittle thorn]

It was in my case lol

[kind oar]

so you want it to be niche but not marketable lol

because if there is a market to it then trust me, someone more efficient will already be there.

[brittle thorn]

The niche help form a barrier to entry...bigger fish ignore it and you focus in on a segment you can serve well

Dont ignore competition

[frozen gate]

You don’t want to be stuck in a niche too long, lest your skills stagnate

[kind oar]

the thing is, it isn't a bigger fish

[brittle thorn]

Im talking about a market niche

[kind oar]

it is just people who are more skilled but willing to do the job for much less due to their local cost of living being much lower (india for example in freelancing sites)

[brittle thorn]

Market niche not similar to skill niche

[brittle thorn]

It doesnt have to be big to make money and have fun doing it

[kind oar]

so your best bet is capitalizing on people who don't use freelancing sites, like mom and pop shops, and just want americans to do the job, because any freelancing sites wouldn't be worth the effort for americans.

[kind oar]

yeah for developing skills, a project while learning a new framework or something, but I'm just saying it usually isn't worth the time investment to actually do much of these for money alone.

[brittle thorn]

Not everybody here is american...lol be careful

[kind oar]

she is though

[brittle thorn]

In general you have to find something unique and non generic...a niche in which you can win otherwise you compete with everybody

Find a problem others ignore

[kind oar]

yup, I'm just saying that freelancing sites isn't the place to look for those.
because there are people in india who are willing to do it for 1/20th of your price and they'd be still making good money.

[brittle thorn]

Yeah we agree there

[kind oar]

but yeah I think specializing in general pays more

[brittle thorn]

It does it makes you special lol

[kind oar]

not really

[brittle thorn]

Im playing in on a pun lol

[kind oar]

it is more about value, or less competition as you said.
I'm talking about general careers.
yeah I got that from the lol, but just went with that.

if she can find a market between chem engineering and coding, that would be more beneficial for her than pure coding.

domain knowledge is VERY valuable to businesses.

@ivory sluice came across this, might interest you maybe?
https://jobs.jobvite.com/riskspan/jobs

[brittle thorn]

Yeah its interesting and I agree I have also seen lawyers here trying to break in to Software Dev... they should look into applications of software in the Legal Domain..

Leverage life experience rather than going generic

[kind oar]

Some domains are more useful than others, legal is mostly parsing documents and mostly a personal job, so idk about that.

but for example accounting and finance could be VERY good for you

[brittle thorn]

Seen some Legal ML applications applying classifiers

[kind oar]

which is what minaberry background is i think.

[kind oar]

Yeah I guess ML/DL and NLP could use that, but idk feels weird, it isn't just research.

[brittle thorn]

Maybe lol but who knows

It is still coding and may go to prod eventually

[kind oar]

yeah but easier to utilize the domain knowledge.
I think that (it isn't the most smart decision lol...) to just go to pure coding stuff.

there are kids out there coding since they were 10 years old, who code even in their free time, who are REALLY nerdy, I think it is not smart to try to compete against those.
Always use whatever you can for you benefit (domain knowledge, previous career, life experience and all that).

[brittle thorn]

Hi check above we talked about legal ML and stuff

[kind oar]

He's a lawyer?

[brittle thorn]

Yeah

[kind oar]

well, I know Big 4 (Public accounting firms) do use some RPA and automation stuff in their tax teams, but I think most of it is in house.

might be similar with big law

[brittle thorn]

https://www.lexisnexis.com/community/insights/legal/tags/AI

The big firms may use that

[kind oar]

If someone here plays dota 2, Merlini, or Ben Wu, left casting and pro stuff and went into working as a developer for one of the big tax software companies.

[kind oar]

I think that the most likely thing is working in consulting firms or such.

[brittle thorn]

He should apply there lol

[kind oar]

he can use his domain knowledge to be a middleman between consultants and the companies, "translating" between those.

I personally looking for something kind of similar (but not really lol, won't do much development, not worth it IMO) but for data teams and finance.

[brittle thorn]

Exactly

[brittle thorn]

More legal and software talk lol

[kind oar]

I think can work the other way around too

[brittle thorn]

Yep

[kind oar]

with the whole data privacy laws, GDPR and the california one, and especially in healthcare and patient privacy, could REALLY be useful (but instead translate laws to data people lol).

I think M$ got a dedicated team for their azure healthcare solution (they need to be certified).

[signal saddle]

hello

can you do web developing with commerce in 11th and 12th?

or you need science only?

[naive trench]

Looking for a Python backend developer for an exciting 3 weeks project. Interested people DM me

[gleaming cargo]

Where there is a will there's a way

[near ocean]

what's "11th and 12th" and how are they relevant to web dev or commerce

[dark kraken]

IS CSE A GOOD COURSE?

im planning to opt this year

[near ocean]

What's CSE, which country, which school
do people not understand that they need to be more detailed when asking questions? we cant read your mind and we dont know your life's story

[patent wasp]

"The truth value of an array with more than one element is ambiguous. Use any() or all()" I can't slove this error. Can someone help me?

[near ocean]

Ask in the appropriate channel #python-discussion

[patent wasp]

Thanks

[honest pivot]

Lol, someone submitted a CV to us last week that listed a bunch of specific course numbers. Like dude, I dunno what that is and I'm not gonna dig through your university website.

[finite leaf]

BJ

HI

[dense mesa]

Got offered basically my dream role in London for grad, but it's only £33k starting. Any thoughts?

[gilded valley]

it's weird that your dream role involves not-great pay.

[dense mesa]

How do you mean?

[gilded valley]

it's your dream role and it only pays 33k - that seems counterintuitive

[dense mesa]

Yeah because you join as Junior, not a full Product Manager

[thick juniper]

Thanks

[dense mesa]

Also it's a grad scheme, not a final position

[gilded valley]

what makes it your dream* role? For me any dream* role is one that is paying very well (amongst other requirements)

[thick juniper]

😆 Yeah, hadn't thought of working on Tax Software but that might be a good fit. My first job was with one of the big four accounting firms.

[brittle thorn]

Stick with it and grow hopefully they will promote you eventually to full PM. What is important is that you like the job and gain experience and eventually you should be able to demand a higher salary.

[thick juniper]

If you've had another interview, maybe wait and see? Your #1 job with 🤷‍♂️ pay is better than your #10,000 job with great pay but not your #10 job with great pay.

Other than that, a bird in the hand..

And anyway, it's easier to get a good job in your ideal field with a bad job in your ideal field. So go for it.

[ivory sluice]

if pay doesn't matter to you much right now then sure, why not. but it absolutely will affect your total life earnings if you're not willing to move after a year or two

what aspects make it your dream role though? are you looking for other offers?

and 33k does sound really low for london

[ruby stag]

Yo guys

[gilded valley]

https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/london-graduate-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,6_IM1035_KO7,33.htm

33k is very slightly below average for London

[brittle thorn]

I was thinking more of you probably considering a career in Legal Analytics that will be a synthesis of your interest in programming and law. Good thing is its mostly Python due to ML libraries

[gilded valley]

Glassdoor matches my experience here. It tracks with what my salary, and the salaries of people I graduated with, are like

[brittle thorn]

https://kirasystems.com/learn/what-is-legal-analytics/

[gilded valley]

I found that via Google - just "London graduate software developer salary"

[dense mesa]

It's for junior product manager not software engineering

[gilded valley]

True - given that product managers require less specialised skills, it could be that 33k is slightly above average for an entry level position there

What is your role? My role title is Graduate Trainee Data Scientist, practically I'm a software developer, and my salary is £40k pa

Clearly I'm still very junior, but It seems to me that you could quite feasibly pivot into a software dev role without too much pain

[brittle thorn]

Not obvious with Title ...Assistant Tech Director can be high or low paid depending on context

[near ocean]

underpaid dev squad checking in with 27.5k in london

[brittle thorn]

Ah devops for VFX

[crude moon]

One piece of advice, going for your next role, i wouldnt use 'Assistant technical director' as your current title

if you go for dev ops, put it is you are currently junior dev ops, or dev ops..

It can put people off if your title exceeds your skills and experience, even if you didnt pick it yourself..

[gilded valley]

I would be wary of putting to many "I'll just do XYZ and then i'll start applying" barriers in front of yourself. Unless you've decided you're sticking with your current job until <some specific date>, then it seems to me that your best bet is to just say fuck it, make a decent CV in a day, and start looking for jobs

I say this because I feel like I know a few people who have mentally trapped themselves in jobs they don't like because they're only willing to accept the perfect job. I know someone who's been complaining about their job and planning to leave for the last 2 years but hasn't left because they can't find the perfect role yet

yeah - if that's the case I can definitely see that it makes sense to stick it out for at least 6 months. I'm accepting that I'm staying in my current role for at least 1 year for similar reasons

[dense mesa]

@gilded valley @thick juniper @brittle thorn @ivory sluice @dense plinth thank you for the advice, I'll safety sign for now

[dense mesa]

Is 27.5k livable in London? How do you find it?

[near ocean]

i live with my girlfriend so we're splitting rent and bills, i guess its fine like that
if i was alone there's no way i could afford our place, i'd have to find a cheap house share
transport is also a huge chunk out of your wallet but if youre fully remote or even 2-3 days remote its okay i guess

[dense mesa]

Me and my girlfriend are gonna split a place anyways, and I think her mum is gonna cover a decent amount

[brazen moon]

where is my girlfriend

[near ocean]

we're on 51.5k GBP combined and renting a 1575GBP flat in zone 2, i'd say we're not as comfy with money as I would like, but its not like we're struggling
sure London prices are high af, but its not as bad as everyone makes it out to be imho

[gilded valley]

51.5k gross or take home?

[near ocean]

gross

[gilded valley]

yeah - it's only viable because it's two of you pooling all of your costs. You have a much lower % tax wedge than someone trying to live alone

from my 40k gross, I take home 27k

with a minimum of £1000/m rent to live alone, that's getting to the point where it's pretty pitiful

compare this to even the South East. If I accepted an hours commute, I could live in tonnes of the country and have significantly more after-rent disposable income*

I strongly regret going for London when I could have taken an equal salary and lived Haywards Heath

[near ocean]

wdym south east, im in zone 2 with a commute of 40min, where would you have to live where its significantly cheaper than london but also 1h commute

[gilded valley]

Haywards Heath -> Brighton is one example

[near ocean]

oh, i thought you were commuting into london

[gilded valley]

no no

[near ocean]

yea one reason i chose to pay more than to live further out of london is that i dont wann have to get up at 6 to go to work

[gilded valley]

anywhere within commutable distance to London is just expensive beyond reason. I was trying to get at the idea that London is the worst place in the country for living costs, and I really do think it is that bad

[near ocean]

im making it work with a pitiful salary and if i can manage literally anyone can

[gilded valley]

you're not making it work with a pitiful salary. You're making it work with 2 pitiful salaries.

[near ocean]

a relationship is part of making it work

[dense mesa]

I think my girlfriend's mum is gonna buy her an apartment or something in London, so I won't be paying exactly 50% rent

[gilded valley]

I would say that just "I'm making it work on a pitiful salary" is somewhat disingenuous without that caveat up front

[near ocean]

i was making it work before we moved in together fyi,i used to rent alone for 3 months before she got a job in london

the 5 year plan was to get experience in London/UK general, and then bounce to somewhere warmer and not as soul crushing

ofc this 5 year plan was supposed to begin like 2 years ago but the world shat the bed with this pandemic so im getting a late start

[crude moon]

where are you working? what area?

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[still condor]

I would be doubtful of a senior developer who joined github 9 days ago 🙂

[proven tiger]

hi, as a computer science degree graduate , do i need to get a degree in data science in order to get a job as data scientist . Is self-study is enough ?

[somber moss]

What is a good beginners python course I can take online, with a decent amount of tutor time and support? Looking for one with help getting employed after you finish

[vapid jay]

I'm desperately hoping self-study is enough. I think if you create a good enough portfolio that can impress a company, you should be good.

It all comes down to your GitHub account it seems.

[proven tiger]

thanks cody,,it make a lot of sense.

[proven tiger]

thanks cody,,it make a lot of sense. I am working on it. Sometime it feels very tired.

[vapid jay]

It's exhausting but hard work pays off more often than not

I'm in the exact same boat. Graudating with a computer science degree in April and want to be prepared.

[proven tiger]

thanks for the console cody. as i am working on it. what i realised is there are a lot more to learn - AI, ML understanding, new language , data . looks like need another 3 years to complete.

[vapid jay]

I think you could probably learn it all in way less than that

obviously it's a massive field but I don't think you need to know EVERYTHING just to get a job. To become an expert it may take a long time but that's not your goal right now.

Would you like to talk about it over voice? I'm currently not allowed over voice on this server because I haven't made 50+ chat posts but I'd be happy to do it directly.

[honest pivot]

I lived in Cambridge for two years and that's practically considered a suburb of London now.

[gilded valley]

yeah, but there's places where you can live cheaply enough and commute into Cambridge

[proven tiger]

thanks..i cant talk either, i just joint yesterday. but truly apprecaite the tips.

[gilded valley]

Cambridge, Oxford, Guildford, even Brighton, are all expensive cities - but the key thing is you can commute from cheaper areas

[proven tiger]

didnt know to voice over need to made 50+ chat 😆

[near ocean]

what a coincidence lmao, i was in Cambridge for a year last year

[honest pivot]

Well, I didn't have a car, so not so much. Cambridge deliberately put the train station in an inconvenient place for accessing the university, lol.

[vapid jay]

Yeah, I'm desperately trying to get to that number lol

[deft peak]

queria ve um ingles falando em call

I forgot that you can only speak English ;-;

[ivory sluice]

!ban 905153978118045727 we had informed you of our rules previously which disallow advertising or recruiting for jobs

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @barren edge permanently.

[vapid jay]

ok i want money wihth python any tips on how i can do it

[near ocean]

Learn python, thats not really a career question...

[warped fiber]

lol

any electric engineer working with python here?

[vapid jay]

can you help me

pls

[warped fiber]

?

what do u need

[warped fiber]

mate me too

[kind oar]

there was one yesterday in a similar situation, search this channel and you will find him.

[dense mesa]

You doing complex power calculations?

[tired vale]

anyone in here a successful IT consultant company starter? Just looking for some guidance in that area in regards to services offered and business plan

[grizzled gull]

what is the best way to learn python?

[kind oar]

depends on your topic of interest, read about different fields, think about which path you like the most, then research guide for that path.

[vapid jay]

I would add if you're just starting out to have an idea for something you want to create and work toward that goal.

[dense mesa]

Ask for the resources in #python-discussion

[vapid jay]

I've been reading horror stories, people doing game dev, being overworked, then they change to web or something like that and double their salary.

With half the workload :/

[dense mesa]

There's a guy in the startups discord who has worked in gamedev for years, that sounds similar to how he's described it

[summer roost]

game dev is notorious for being extremely overworked and underpaid.

also high stress, long hours, and low job security

[crude folio]

Just done a tech test on coderbyte but was a bit unsure
Do companies always expect super efficient solutions to these tasks or does it depend on the company??

It was the basic sudoku solver problem but with the addition that only quadrant numbers needed to be spit out
I went with a maintainable approach - outputting coords and then coverting to quadrants etc. but think that may have been a bad call

[smoky quest]

it depends on:

• How well are doing the other candidates
• Your situation and expectations from you as a candidate
• Their minimum bar for that very specific exercise

[crude folio]

I'll rephrase my question: is it better to offer the most efficient solution even if it sacrifices the ability to show good code structuring and principles?
If that makes sense?

[summer roost]

for technical interviews with an interviewer in the room, they usually want any solution to the problem, to start out with. If they want a different, more efficient approach, the interviewer will ask you to take it in a different direction, or to talk through another solution.

So I'd start with what's easiest to get right, and then move on to something more efficient if pressed.

[crude folio]

I went with a readable, longer solution rather than a super condensed one
It was a take-home task so no interviewer watching over which made it more difficult to decide

[smoky quest]

Understanding what types of trade offs you would make and how you would articulate them are also things you could be assessed on.
As long as it's not used as an excuse for not providing a more efficient version

[crude folio]

Hopefully I get a chance to walk them through it, although I think I'm not fully qualified for the role anyway tbf
We shall see

[summer roost]

take-home ones are trickier. For something take-home, I'd default to trying to produce the most production-ready version of the code - the one that you'd submit for a code review to have merged to main and deployed.

with take home ones, you can include comments that explain why you chose the approach you chose.

[crude folio]

Well that's good to hear, that's what I went for

[smoky quest]

It also depends on the context. Trying to go from a O(N^2) to O(N) on 10 000 elements does make sense. Trying to do the same on a strictly bounded set of 10 elements, wouldn't necessarily matter, especially at the expense of other factors

[crude folio]

It was the "only 3x3 quadrant numbers need to be output" that threw me, as obviously the solution can be much more efficient without needing to know duplicate values or their specific coords and such

[warped fiber]

not really, im writing a program to calculate the capacity credit of all power plants in chile

due to a change in the regulation

now we are going to start calculating the capacity credit with the ELCC methodology

[dense mesa]

Gotcha, this is the wrong channel then. See #❓｜how-to-get-help

[warped fiber]

thank u mate

[warped fiber]

i was just curious if there where electric engineers working with python cause i have plans to migrate from my country

and since this is a career channel i thought it would be the right one

[warped fiber]

Hola cata, eres hispanohablante?

[summer roost]

!rule 4 - we only allow English on the server, for moderation and culture purposes

[inner wren]

Rules

4. Use English to the best of your ability. Be polite if someone speaks English imperfectly.

[warped fiber]

got it

[warped fiber]

i think the best way is doing, maybe you could watch a youtube course but make sure not to get stuck in little things or thing beyond what you need for starting to apply python on the topic you are learning python for....

in other ways, make sure to apply python on your area of study or work, as soon as you can.

if you are planning to use python on a big project i would recommend learning object oriented programming as a way to organise your code.

[coarse veldt]

Hello

[warped fiber]

this is what i would do if i had to learn python again, witch i kind of did during 2021

[coarse veldt]

What in your opinion is the best career

First in terms of money

and then in terms of fun and joy

[kind oar]

Not directly related to python, but does anyone do consulting here?
I’m doing freelancing, mostly in Financial Analysis and Data stuff.

How do you usually deal with projects with a lot of extra unexpected work on fixed price contact? I feel like I don’t have much power given the state of the freelancing sites, so I’m definitely gonna swallow my pride this time and just get the job done.
But I just want to know if someone have experience on these situations?
I always try to have the project planned out at the start to get a good idea about how long it will take me and for pricing, I expected this to take me something like 6-10 hours, but so far I’m into the 25th hour and still not close to being done, I’ve communicated this with the client several times and she seemed understanding at the start, but now I’m honestly not sure, the DBA is making things VERY hard (who I’m sure can not be an actual DBA, I can’t even give him credit to being a generalist sysadmin).
Any tips?

[warped fiber]

im currently finishing my electric engineering carrer (actually here is called civil engineering, witch means a grater grade than a engineer but a lower grade than a master) and monetary is really good

im in latam by the way

but your question about the fun and joy is reeeeeally subjective

[vapid jay]

That sounds rough.

I looked at Fiverr the other day and it is absolutely flooded so I can see why you don't think you have much power. If you have other clients in your backlog, I would just move on and refund this person if it's gonna take you way more time.

[kind oar]

it is what it is, I'm sure I'm not assertive enough, looking to avoid getting into more of these situations in the future.

[warped fiber]

here in chile is one of the hardest things you can study, so it cost me sweat and tears, but the level of comprehention you get on some matters is just incredibble and beautyfull

[vapid jay]

it probably isn't worth it to invest so much time with one client if you can make more money if you move on.

[kind oar]

Yeah, I'm trying to avoid sunk cost fallacy, but honestly, I think I'm just gonna put that shit in Excel and won't about the actual sustainable solution.

[coarse veldt]

@warped fiber Thanks so much because I am not a teenager yet, but have learned Rubik's cube (18.278 sec)and now coding is my thing and that help a lot thanks

[vapid jay]

Do you have other client in your backlong though?

[kind oar]

sadly a bit desperate right now, at the start thought this could be a long term client, but definitely not right now, finishing this one and saying good bye

[vapid jay]

ah

[kind oar]

I have a few more, but not consistent and I need money for a masters, so trying to get as much as I can.

I was trying to be proactive and help with things, but that was a BIG mistake.

I guess consulting firms just take the loss when going massively over budget, recoup the money from other clients?

[warped fiber]

oh man, you are still young, i recommend you doing everything you want, learning as much as you want, experimenting with everything it comes to your hands, and then.... the path would be made, and the decision will be taken by itself.\

[vapid jay]

@kind oar would you like some help with the project? I'm looking to get some experience and am ok volunteering

I feel for you tbh

I am in a similar situation with a client I am working with for a uni project

it's a project I have no interest in but analytics and finance type work is what interests me

[kind oar]

There isn't really much work, it is just small things that then unexpected turn to be A LOTstuff, DBA not normalizing the DB, having hard time extracting unique list for a dimension table.

not assigning enough resources to his azure DB which I found out by chance after spending dozen hours trying to micro optimize the simple query

newest discovery For some fucking reason reason, the staff time sheets DB have 5-13 time repeated columns for each entry.

I do work in finance stuff, I can show you around if you want, not much work though

[vapid jay]

yeah I would love that! are you available right now?

[kind oar]

will be in an hour, will DM you to start a voice screenshare call

[vapid jay]

I usually go to bed really early but I'm intrigued by this and have wanted to get started for a while!

[kind oar]

well, in that case lets start now so you can go to bed.

[vapid jay]

ok thx

[deft peak]

hi gays

[ivory sluice]

yes?

[deft peak]

nothing no

[ivory sluice]

please respect the channel topics, this one is for #career-advice

[brittle thorn]

In general avoid fixed price contracts and do hourly rate if the project is not too well defined. I have my own freelancing stories like yours and many who do freelance and a full time job will definitely prioritize the full time job over the freelance gig. I however never used these freelance sites and mostly got my gigs offline. You should get better at project timeline estimation with time and experience. Dont take failed estimates bad even professional full time project managers mess that up frequently even with input from developers.

So before taking any projects on or offline do investigate and take your time

[brittle thorn]

Better to break up in some cases than sink with the ship

[deft peak]

what is the average of a junior programmer there in the united states, i'm from brazil here it's not very tall

[summer roost]

A junior developer in the US with a Computer Science degree makes around $100,000 USD per year

[brittle thorn]

Document all of this and present it to the client. Specify what work has been in scope of previous terms and out of scope.

Have a clear scope of work
Bill for work that is out of scope

Adjust timeline accounting for these

[kind oar]

True, I try to do that, but not much network given my location.

I always investigate at the start, but didn't expect that they'd have such a stupid setup, like non indexed DB, Dates as Text, unordered, and for some reason, I recently found out that each timesheet entry is repeated several times (client doesn't know shit, DBA isn't useful, slow DB with no enough resources).

[brittle thorn]

The challenge of being a freelancer is that you are PM/Analyst/Dev lol

[kind oar]

yeah, I wish I had more options and I'd been way more picky about those things, I can't bill outside of the agreed price, I did document with videos explaining the situation

[brittle thorn]

Yeah i have seen horrible DBs myself lol

[kind oar]

dude if you saw this one... I swear a dog would be better than this

[summer roost]

probably just someone else who accepted the job only to be surprised by how much work was gonna be needed

so they took shortcuts and did the bare minimum to deliver something.

[kind oar]

I'm gonna be very unprofessional and tell the client she should fire him

[kind oar]

I'm 100% sure you can't indirectly get into this situation, he is going out of his way to make things hard lol

I'm honestly gonna put the query in an excel file, query that one instead of directly query the SQL for historical data

but I'm getting timed out, like what the hell, not enough resources on the transactional database.

[brittle thorn]

Yeah the dog maybe cute the db is as you have said horrible...more than better

[kind oar]

I just don't know how to handle such situations, it is a sunk cost yes, but i'm not sure how to do better.

I did a top 1000 (LIMIT for other DBs), saw the data, seemed unnormalized but useable, but good god why are there repeated entreries

why does a timesheet entry from November have last week timestamp? why are dates stored as text

I was trying to be helpful and setup an incremental refresh options, but that was stupid.

[brittle thorn]

Sometimes thing like this happen.. learn from it. Too many people simply dont do proper DB design and normalization..

[kind oar]

There gotta be better ways to test servers before starting to work

[kind oar]

I work a lot in excel, so I'm familiar with unorganized data, but the thing that is getting me here is that I can't find a possible reason why timesheet entries would be repeated EXACT matches for all entries

I'm trying to think of a possible way that he got into that situation, but it doesn't make sense

[vapid jay]

How does one attempt this cancerous BS

[kind oar]

but anyways, you said you mostly get work from positive word of mouth? do you actively pitch to clients or just let them do it?

[brittle thorn]

I had the luck of getting them without pitching lol

[kind oar]

that seems like a question that is written by a small company who have too much time, I personally wouldn't take the time to apply to those, just type "I'm unique" and move on.

[brittle thorn]

Im not a salesman never had been

[summer roost]

I'd treat it as something fun. For me, I'd say that I flew in a plane 18 times before the first time I landed in a plane.

[vapid jay]

lol

[kind oar]

I was a salesman, but it is quite hard to quantify these services, I think I'm just gonna fake it till I make it, charge US prices, I'm not getting many projects so what do I have to lose lol

What do you moonlight in?

[summer roost]

really, that "tell us what makes you unique" is a pretty good opportunity to say something eye catching. There's a lot of luck involved in getting your resume picked for an interview by a hiring manager who sees an awful lot of similar resumes (especially at the junior level). If you say something interesting, they might decide to pick you to interview over another similar candidate just because they think you'd be more interesting to chat with.

I know people who've gotten interviews based on their hobbies, or the town they grew up in, or the high school they went to, or whatever.

[kind oar]

it seems to be a question on an ATS, these aren't viewed by the hiring manager, mainly the HR/recruiters, I personally wouldn't take the time to genuinely reply to those BS questions.

Cast a wider net, increase your chances by applying to more jobs, don't put much effort unless it is a company that you REALLY want to work in.

[summer roost]

Does it take much effort to name a single interesting thing about yourself?

[kind oar]

would you write 200 characters for all jobs you apply to?

[summer roost]

Oh, I hate the form-based applications, and they really do slow you down

[kind oar]

you still have to read the post, you still fill other parts of the application, you still have other jobs to apply to, you still have to fill other parts like the bs I don't want to tell you what my disability or background is

[summer roost]

but if I hit a field like that on an application I had already decided to fill out, I'd go with the fact I listed above.

it's small, interesting, and eye-catching.

[kind oar]

true, I'm just saying it isn't worth the effort unless it is a job you REALLY want, that's the way recruiting works, many people apply, few get selected

[summer roost]

I think that's a better question than the ones like "tell me about a time you experienced conflict"

[brittle thorn]

The longest most productive relationship I had was a niche service.. Library Database Conversion for a Library Database System vendor. I got that gig after solving database conversion for my Uni where I worked full time at that time. Other gigs I got through industry contacts mostly web some system dev

[kind oar]

the way ATS works is that they order applicants based on qualifications, keyword hits, all that BS, then throws the top 5 or 10 to the HR/recruiter to quickly glance over, do you really think they take the time to read each person's application?

[summer roost]

at some point, a person makes decisions about who to bring in and who not to. A good answer to that question can only help.

it would help you past the ATS stage, at the point where HR or the hiring manager is deciding who to bring in. And it could make an interesting ice breaker in an interview.

[brittle thorn]

Lol a winning combo you can be an entrepreneur

[kind oar]

I have a couple of recurring client work, but usually very niche and very small, not sustainable.

[kind oar]

Most jobs get hundreds of applicants, it isn't worth it

[summer roost]

I'm pretty confused by why you'd have that take, honestly. If that question was in the middle of a form application, would you really bail on the whole application instead of just spending 20 seconds writing something? That seems like a lot of sunk cost just because it's a question you're ideologically opposed to.

[kind oar]

I thought about it a while ago, start an LLC, start a website, marketing all that bs, hire people for cheap (good amounts locally), outsource gigs, be just a front and organizer.

a client even wanted me to do that with him, but not worth it, I just want enough money for a masters in canada and take it easy from there.

[kind oar]

I wouldn't bail the thing, but I'm just saying I won't put much effort.

[summer roost]

Oh, I agree. I'd just give the sort of fact that you give in "two truths and a lie", or in other ice breakers. Surely you've had someone ask you for an interesting fact about yourself before? Just recycle that.

[kind oar]

I agree, it is an okay questions, but not for application, mainly for personal interviews, and most likely, you just need to cast a wider net and that increases your chances, putting more effort in one job application isn't worth it.

[brittle thorn]

I tried being a cofounder at startups ...be careful who you partner with lol ....

[kind oar]

I thought about that too lol, partnering up with a small CPA firm and doing their bookkeeping in tax season (especially since we're in january), and then across the year do actual finance gigs for these clients.

tried reaching out to dozens of CPA firms and just got ignored, it doesn't fit my long term plans so I just didn't think about it much.

[brittle thorn]

Ah somebody probably want you to be the client facing front... many coders are like that..shy introverts..

[kind oar]

too much stress, + I'm not that good, as I get older, I rather be in my little silo minding my own business.

get a masters in west for visa, get a cushy job in a big company where people can easily forget about you, put enough effort to barely get "exceeds expectation" for annual bonus, automate as much of my job as I can.

I have a friend in dubai doing a dev ops gig, he automated most of his job, got his own office, just chills most of the day while getting paid good amount, dude living the dream haha

[brittle thorn]

Its like write a tweet to make us want to hire you lol... This is like an elevator pitch for a startup....you dont have enough time and words and yet have to impress somebody... Think of an elevator pitch for yourself... what makes you different from all other candidates...you are not them...what experiences do you bring to the table

[brittle thorn]

In Dubai an amazing place to boot

[brittle thorn]

Yeah I have slowed down too as I aged and understand

[summer roost]

from everything I've ever seen, running a company is drastically more work than working a corporate job, with much more risk, worse hours, and lower average returns on investment.

it has the potential for much higher returns, but on average the returns are quite a bit lower.

not to mention, it requires a drastically different set of skills. Running a company is a lot of management, and requires quite a different set of skills than coding does.

[kind oar]

true more work, that's why I'm saying I just want to get enough money for a masters to get a visa in Canada and just work a corp gig.

But if you're living in a country that have low cost of living like mine (so low salaries too), it is VERY worth it to start a remote company, especially in america, hence why all those indian people who just get an american as front for their company but it is 99% run by indians.

just for reference, I used to work in the largest retail bank here in Egypt, 10-14 hours per day year round, my net take home after annual bonuses and all that was 250 USD.

and that was a VERY prestigious job here.

I'm pretty sure it is similar situation to India, that is why a lot of indians go to coding and try to find freelance jobs online.

[summer roost]

that's fair, I was speaking from a western perspective. The risk/reward story might be very different in less wealthy countries.

[kind oar]

yup, but also the "american dream" exist for a reason, your country have the A LOT of startups for a reason, there is a market for it, anyone can start a company and get some financing, but as you said, quite risky.

basic phrase finance professors always say, high risk high reward.

as you said, it is a different type of personality and skillset.

[trim meteor]

Hi

[smoky quest]

lmao no

indeed, lever, etc. are pretty dumb and stupid.
It's more like a spreadsheet and the HM has to figure it out

and yes, every HM I know do read all the applications. The level of attention being heavily dependent on the resume/profile

To be clear, It's not even a spreadsheet. It's literally an HTML table with sortable columns (name, application date, last updated)

[kind oar]

I'm talking about actual ATS, not those websites.
And HM read the ones that get to them, they don't even see the other 190 applicants that got disqualified by ATS and then HR/recruiters.

[smoky quest]

indeed is not just the job aggregation part. They do have an ATS

[kind oar]

they do, same for linkeded and zip recruiter and whatever, but I'm talking about actual ATSs.

[smoky quest]

What's an actual ATS for you?
Because all the companies I have worked for, from startup to large fortunes do use something like indeed or lever

and all the resumes were reviewed by the HM. At most, there was an agreement with the technical recruiter to filter out the inapplicable applicants due to visa, but they would still be listed

[kind oar]

big companies don't use those as an ATS, they use as an indexer only

the company's linkedin account gets linked to the ATS, anything that gets posted in their job board automatically gets posted on linked for that location (if HR chooses to)

[smoky quest]

right, but that's the aggregation part. That goes witn indeed and monster and...

that gives you some nice charts about sourcing

[kind oar]

yes, I'm just replying to "big companies use those"

[smoky quest]

I work for a big tech company though. So I do feel excluded :p

[kind oar]

are you honestly saying that hiring manager read EVERY APPLICANT?

[smoky quest]

As a rule of thumb, yes

[kind oar]

okay

[summer roost]

almost every one, at least.

[smoky quest]

They may not read it end to end and in details if the candidate is obviously not gonna be a good fit. But they want to maximize their funnel

They may also not read them on the same hour/day you send it in, but they have all the incentives to review them

[kind oar]

I don't have anything to say other than this.

[smoky quest]

And yes, we do also get hundreds of applicants per role

[summer roost]

there's a set of filters that happen before it reaches the hiring manager, but those filters remove relatively few people. The process at most companies is optimized to prefer allowing bad candidates to reach the hiring manager over having good candidates pruned out by HR or an ATS before a hiring manager ever sees them.

[kind oar]

the only way they'd read it is if the first bile they sent didn't make it, they go to the next then the next then the next.

[smoky quest]

it's like the pet vs cattle.
When you have that many candidates, you treat them as a funnel

So you want to maximize your funnel, then there are more chances for a candidate to get to the next filter

You aren't gonna wait to see if the first candidate on the pile, as you describe them, will make it. You just talk to as many people as you can and in the least expensive manner as you can, which is also why you don't meet all the team from the get go

As much as I enjoy the bureaucracy scenes in Brazil, it ain't like that yet, luckily

[summer roost]

remember also that big companies are always hiring. Reasonably large companies need to constantly be replacing people due to attrition, or due to people moving on to more senior roles and leaving gaps at the junior level. So, at the junior level, you're usually not competing with a huge number of other people for the same job, at least outside of the very high prestige companies that everyone wants to work for.

[kind oar]

no there isn't one, hence bile, there are like 5 or ten options per group

[smoky quest]

most of the candidates do get rejected for some reason or another

[kind oar]

yes, and ATS keeps you in the bile, so you get considered for jobs you didn't apply to.

[onyx locust]

hey guys, could someone please do me a solid? im trying to construct a resume, could somone whos actually been employed, could you please share your resume with me please?

[kind oar]

depends on your local market, resume etiquettes differ from country to another.

[smoky quest]

you would be surprised how many applicants can't even write a simple factorial/fizzbuzz

[onyx locust]

really? but wont companies accept my resume regardless since im mostly applying for remote jobs? im 18 btw with no degree/no qualifications other than previous programs

[kind oar]

idk what those are, again non technical person, but seems like case studies or whatever you name technical interviews.

[summer roost]

at the junior level, if I talked to 5 good candidates, all of them would get an offer.

[smoky quest]

or referred to other teams*

[onyx locust]

i also dont know how ot get experience, i have no clue since i dont have a degree and probably wont because i bombed school, i dont really know aside from developing interesting applications, on how i could gain attraction from companies

[kind oar]

that's because you don't see the other 100 applicants, HR only sends you what they think is qualified + cultural fit.

[summer roost]

that's not true.

[smoky quest]

why not going in a degree?

[kind oar]

that's the whole point of a title called reruiter,

[onyx locust]

cos i failed in school

[smoky quest]

HR doesn't do any filtering on culture fit / qualification without input from the HM in every company I am aware of

[kind oar]

you should say where you're from, this could differ from country to another.

[summer roost]

well, not at companies I've worked at. Recruiters source leads and guide applicants through the process, and do some initial winnowing for things like visas. Hiring managers handle checking for culture fit and technical skills fit.

[smoky quest]

What about alternate routes?
Going in CS without a degree and experience is going to be rough

[craggy wave]

My company is much smaller than the one godlygeek works for, but I can confirm what they say.

We only have a few thousand employees

[kind oar]

by cultural fit i didn't mean the team fit, I meant general company cultural fit, as in personal interviews for the entry levels.

[onyx locust]

hows the wage, and what qualifications did you have when you applied

[summer roost]

so did I. At my company - actually, at every company I've ever been involved in the hiring process for - HR did not even have an initial phone call with candidates. Hiring managers were responsible for scheduling initial phone screens.

[kind oar]

he's probably way older than you, from different location, 100% won't directly apply to you.

[craggy wave]

The wage is okay, but could be better. I could likely take an offer that would increase my wage, but the secondaries are great and the work is really nice. And for the qualifications, I made a career switch from academics and I did not start at a junior position.

I do interview a lot of people for a junior position, though.

You constantly have to make sure that you have a good balance

[kind oar]

interesting, that seems to be way too much time spent on this, especially since as you said, bigger companies go through kids a lot.

[craggy wave]

Our HR does not have an initial phone call either

Although we do have some inhouse recruiters, but they only do some very basic scrutiny. All true first conversations are with people from my unit, typically a manager with one of the seniors.

[kind oar]

so you read every resume, even though 100 of them might not have the minimum stated requirement (which is hopeful thinking in most cases)

[summer roost]

the only jobs for which I've heard of HR eliminating most of the candidates before a manager ever gets a say are relatively low skill jobs - cashier or secretary or things like that, where there's a massive pile of applications for a very small number of job openings.

[smoky quest]

What I have seen would be along the lines of:

• There is an assistant to do the actual scheduling
• Recruiter, who partners with the HM. They will handle the legal/visa type of stuff and initial questions about expectations, history...
• HM responsible for everything else and has the last word, as long as it doesn't create any legal limbo 🙂

[onyx locust]

bro more and more it seems like you really cant get a job at a young age if you mess up in school, seems like you just either gotta devote 300% of your time making a extraordinary peice of software or you just gotta swallow the hard pill and waste your time through certs until you reach university

[smoky quest]

it's a high tech area. So yeah, there are some skills involved (in a lot of CS related jobs)

[onyx locust]

and seeing how ageist the australian tech industry is, its not even possible for a person in my situation to get hired even if the skill requirement is there

[kind oar]

yeah, HM have the say, it is just that the initial screening is done by HR, hence why networking is VERY important, references bypasses initial HR stuff (not the legal requirement obv) + having access to job that aren't even advertised.

[summer roost]

yeah, absolutely. Very few applicants meet the stated minimum requirements; they're a wishlist to give people an idea of what skills are desired, not a filter that we apply.

[smoky quest]

HR doesn't decide. They literally put a note on the candidate about why they are looking for a new job and salary expectation and if visa is required or not. That's it.

[craggy wave]

HR don't really play into it in the company I work for. Networking with actual developers and/or the manager of a unit could help though.

[kind oar]

a lot of people here are in NA, very different market than your local.

[onyx locust]

so your saying that people that are successful within the "resume" phase are those that cater to your desired tech upon job listing or those that showcase thier skill set

[summer roost]

I don't think I said that

[kind oar]

I agree, a lot of it is wishful thinking, but some of them are written in stone, like degree for some jobs and masters for others and so on.
you have to be VERY exceptional for them to overlook the actual minimum requirements (not the advertised min reqs lol).

[onyx locust]

bro im just asking

[craggy wave]

I did not meet the minimum requirements for my job either.

[onyx locust]

then how did you land it

[craggy wave]

Because it's more of a wish list

[kind oar]

then you got lucky other applicants weren't more qualified/best fit.

[summer roost]

the "resume" phase casts a wide net, and the hiring managers then winnow the field. For a senior role, if they find someone who meets their entire wishlist, they'll interview that person for sure. If they find a few people who meet most of the requirements, then they'll interview all of those people, too.

[onyx locust]

sorry? whats a wishlist

[summer roost]

a list of things that they'd like.

[onyx locust]

oh, thats what i was saying

[summer roost]

they're not things that you must have, they're things that they'd like you to have.

[craggy wave]

I mean, I'm currently involved in the hiring process of my company in that I very frequently do either the first conversation or the second conversation. A lot of people are missing requirements.

[kind oar]

oh yeah, the posted min reqs are just hopeful thinking at best, I'm just saying there are some of them are set in stone (degrees for some jobs and so on), but ones that ask for min 8 YoE for senior? nah

[onyx locust]

so its important within a resume to cater to that specific wishlist instead of outlining your specific skill set

[craggy wave]

There are so many myths surrounding getting hired that it's almost ridiculous

[smoky quest]

the job ad is about what you are looking for in that specific role in the team.
Most sensible HM will understand it's pretty difficult to find that exact fit. So they are looking at it more like a cost function. The closer you are, the better it is, but that's not a blocker.
A lot of skills can be learned or trained on

(am also ignoring the VISA job ads, which are more controversial and out of scope)

[onyx locust]

yeah thats fair, i read a quote saying " skill can be taught, attitude cant"

[craggy wave]

And if you want to learn from the experiences of someone who works for a very well-respected company in the tech sphere and the Python ecosystem, do listen to godlygeek

[onyx locust]

i guess that gives me some confidence

[craggy wave]

They know what they're talking about

[kind oar]

unrelated sebastian, but what's that certified mod thing?

[summer roost]

even degrees are usually "wish list" items. If someone has 5 years of professional experience but no degree, I'll interview them for a junior position.

[kind oar]

true, but I'm saying SOME jobs actually have some requirements set in stone.

[summer roost]

yeah, that's true.

some companies might require the degree as a matter of policy, and won't budge on it.

[kind oar]

but most those advertised requirement are hopeful thinking lol, you can easily see those from the profiles who work in that team.

[onyx locust]

okay so can i get yalls opinion, in that case, if i lie within my wishlist, is it gonna be apparent? i do belive i am a adaptive learner, i did freelancing with no issues and i did a diverse set of programming. so is a wishlist somthing i can adapt to? ofc it depends on my current skillsets but job listing wishlists are sometimes requireing rest and all the theoretical outlines

[smoky quest]

and that's ok. The HM will see it from the pool of candidates they get and adjust from there

[kind oar]

If I'm interested in a company, I usually check the local team members if I can find them on linkedin, but some BS HR question on the first application? hell no, I'm typing "I'm momma's special"

[summer roost]

are you asking if you should lie on your resume? If so, "no".

[smoky quest]

just ignore these questions or put something. The main thing is to get in the system

[smoky quest]

It's super easy to spot liars. That will leave a black mark on you as well

[kind oar]

yeah that was my opinion, I told the dude to just type "I'm special" and move on with the rest of application, I'm just saying no self respecting company would actually ask those questions on the first application.

[onyx locust]

no cos i belive that i am about 87 percent there, its just that i dont want to waste time writing some dead end application that will probably get overlooked that outlines that specific skill, the 3/27

[smoky quest]

if they are about sexual orientation, race or related, that may just be some government related question for measuring diversity and equity and inclusion

[craggy wave]

How much experience do you have in applying for development jobs and/or being involved in the interview process, @onyx locust?

[onyx locust]

ive applied ot many jobs when i was 17

[summer roost]

so, don't lie. Be honest about the 87% that you do have, and let the company decide if that's close enough.

[onyx locust]

ive had one interview that i did almost pass, they rejected me because i was 17 and they needed a 18 year old

[kind oar]

dude, your country have an immigration points system, there are many qualified people that will apply to jobs in aussie.
and in aussie there are many qualified people.

If you were in the hiring manager position, would you accept yourself with nothing going for you?

there is no shortcut, just do the best you can, forget about your grades, and hope for the best, your question is too general, first think about what you want to do for a job then walk backward from there.

[kind oar]

yeah those are for diversity quotas, and required, and annoying, but I'm talking about the "what makes you special" screenshot on an job application instead of interview.

[onyx locust]

i would hire myself, i've been programming since i was 14, i do think i desurve a position, its just the formulation of my experience is the hard part

[summer roost]

if someone asks for a unique fact about you, providing one can only help you.

[smoky quest]

the sad part is no one read these

[kind oar]

because that's illegal to hire you, too many restrictions.

[smoky quest]

they were just put in there by whoever set up the form

[onyx locust]

i feel like if my resume is good enough ill definitely get interviews.

[kind oar]

true, you don't lose much, but in that 30 secs you wrote a 100 char thing, you could apply for an extra job doubling your chances.

[smoky quest]

correlation vs causation.
If you are good and have good projects, it's more likely for your resume to be good.
Rather than trying to make your resume look good

[summer roost]

could you?

job applications usually take me 5 or 10 minutes, not 30 seconds. At least, the form-based ones.

[onyx locust]

but at my age, i feel like my resume will just look like trash because if i am even to be considered, i will have to go above and beyond the normally respectable zone

[kind oar]

given that I'm 100% sure no self respecting company would ask that question, then you can hit the "easy apply" on linked for another shitty job, spray and pray baby

[onyx locust]

well i used to just answer the questions

[smoky quest]

I did hire once a 18 years old. Granted he was recommended by someone I trust and he was (still is) a literal genius

[summer roost]

well, you can choose what jobs you want to apply to. 🤷

[onyx locust]

🤩 you are a good person, but the question is would you have hired him if you were not influenced by the person that reccomended him

[kind oar]

okay, others have vouched for your company, would your company ever, even in a thousand years, ask a first time applicant to write 150 characters?

[summer roost]

Hm? That's a maximum, not a minimum.

[smoky quest]

He did not have the maturity at the time to know how to present his projects or which projects I would even care about

[onyx locust]

did he really want it? or was it just like a " oh well i guess im good enough for it"

[kind oar]

yes, I'm saying I'd half ass it, personal opinion

[summer roost]

So would I - I'd write one sentence, like I said above.

[smoky quest]

he did. We were doing some cool stuff too.
But I also do place the bar pretty high to be put in the category of literal genius. And he had the chops to back it up

[kind oar]

yes, my one sentence is "me so special", as a matter of principle.
I never said he should close the webpage, I'm just saying he shouldn't put much effort into those shitty applications.

[onyx locust]

if its not weird or too much to ask, could you please take a quick glance at my github? i just really want a professionals opinion on my codes

[summer roost]

I do think most 18 year olds don't have the maturity to work in a corporate environment, nor the skills required to succeed in a junior dev role.

[smoky quest]

lmao, which one of your 40+ repositories should one look at?

[kind oar]

it isn't about that one job application, it is about will you do it for every single application? he honestly didn't seem that motivated about that job post anyways. (the guy who posted the screenshot)

[kind oar]

agree, a lot of office politics that will burn them and make them develop bad habits.

[onyx locust]

book_store ; MindDump ; TodoButBetter ;Database-Management-System; The-Encriptonator. i have a project on there that im currently persuing for entreprenuerial purposes, i designed my own flask app strucutre if you want to see it

[smoky quest]

tbh, am a bit like you in that regard.
One of my brand appeal is I hate red tape and help engineers cut through it to generate more value. So I would typically put random shit in the pure corporate questions.

[summer roost]

yeah, I would. If you see multiple sites that ask the same question, you can give the same answer every time.

[kind oar]

I wouldn't qualify such company as corporate, then again, it costs like 200 bucks to start an S Corp lol

[smoky quest]

anything that asks me about a cover letter, why I am special, my weaknesses...

[smoky quest]

• no readmes
• no licenses
• no tests
• random binaries like https://github.com/Wizock/book_store/tree/master/app/__pycache__ or some sqlite db
• no CI/CD

[summer roost]

I think asking for a unique fact about yourself is... cute. I think it's something that I'd more expect at a smaller business than a larger one, but an interesting fact could help you get your foot in the door, so it doesn't seem bad to play along to me.

[onyx locust]

...i made that in 3 days, just totally rushed

[kind oar]

I'm much younger and less experienced than you all, but I never did a cover letter, I'm 99% certain it won't be read unless I'm already short listed, in that case I prefer to do stuff in person than a one page.

[smoky quest]

As someone hiring people: 👏 not 👏 my 👏 problem 👏

[onyx locust]

same, i dont really get the point of a cover leater

[kind oar]

actually, I lied, I think I wrote some bs in the masters resume I showed you a while ago lol

[onyx locust]

what does that mean sorry, no ci/cd?

[summer roost]

I don't usually bother with cover letters.

[kind oar]

true, I agree it could be a cute little question, but it is best left to the interview.

[smoky quest]

continuous integration / continuous deployment

Remember that your repositories will be judged as how you would write code if you were to be hired. So no one cares about any excuse about how much time, if your dog was sick or if it was windy on a tuesday

[onyx locust]

but how does ci/cd effect my code

[kind oar]

he just explained it

[smoky quest]

Because a software engineer is more than just pissing code

[summer roost]

I think of it as a question that a company expecting too many applicants for the number of open positions might ask. If you make yourself more memorable than the other candidates, it's more likely they'll remember you and choose to bring you in.

[onyx locust]

no but how did i do it wrong tho, im just trying to learn

[kind oar]

agree, I'm just saying that from experience, those companies don't tend to be good to work at.

[smoky quest]

it's not like you did it wrong, it's like you have nothing 🙂
I would be expecting some github action, connection to circleci or equivalent

[summer roost]

especially in Python, code that doesn't have tests is code that should be assumed to be broken.

[smoky quest]

most projects would have a way to run tests automatically when PRs get merged

[onyx locust]

i used circleCI in one of my repos, istg. i never knew why it always said that its broken tho

so i stopped using it and i just uploaded my repos and showed people how to run it locally

[smoky quest]

that's a good start then. That's the sort of things reviewers would look for

[smoky quest]

anything manual is an opportunity to forget or do it wrong

[kind oar]

placing bets at #ot1-perplexing-regexing

[onyx locust]

okay, so if you were to change 3 things about this repo, what would you, personal opinion, what, as a HR, would just totally ruin your day seeing this repo

[smoky quest]

see my list earlier

[onyx locust]

the book_store application, because in my mind, idk improvements beyond just code

[summer roost]

no README, no tests, no description. I don't know what this repo is or what it's for or how to use it.

[smoky quest]

also overall your projects are a good start, but I don't see anything that would grab my attention and make me want to talk to you more

[onyx locust]

okay, yeah i get your point, imma do that for all my repos, imma also look into integrating CI/CD, dunno how but ill ask in the server again

[onyx locust]

yeah i knew thats what made you disinterested, you didnt really look at the code it self and i could tell because i didnt really show case it much, i need to add in detailed readmes

[honest pivot]

I read every cover letter we receive and they are actually important. But the job requires a PhD so there are fewer applicants.

[summer roost]

and PhD's are used to jumping through meaningless hurdles 😄

[onyx locust]

one more, https://github.com/Wizock/TodoButBetter this is my most developed repo. could i get your last opinion on this?

also, its a massive confidence boosting having a professional say that i write okay code xD

[smoky quest]

To expand on my previous message, I get the overall feeling your projects are just started django templates.
I don't see much in terms of:

• Event/streaming processing. So things like SQS/kafka/pulsar/pubsub
• Caching. So things like redis
• General complex processing or coordination
• Anything more complex on the DB side
• No authentication
• Nothing in terms of containers
• Nothing in terms of real time, like websockets or longpolling or whatever

[honest pivot]

I don't think it's meaningless. It helps explain people who are changing careers, which most PhDs going into industry are.

[summer roost]

if your goal with your projects is to get hiring managers to read them, then you need to give a description of what the project is. If you want them to believe that it works, then you need tests. If you want them to actually open the code and explore it, describing the layout of the repo and what the major files are for in the README is helpful, so that people know how it's organized and where to start reading. Docstrings in the individual files help a lot as well.

[smoky quest]

my PhDs are ones of my best hires though. So no regrets

[onyx locust]

jesus

i do authenticate tho,

[smoky quest]

also I could not find any api key or passwords. So props for that.
You would be surprised how often I can find some and how it's an instant reject

[onyx locust]

i wanna find an excuse but i dont really know most of that even is

[summer roost]

lol, I've never thought to check for that. That's a good note 😄

[smoky quest]

Don't look for excuse. That's not the right mindset

[onyx locust]

no no, i dont push with keys, learnt that the hard way

and if i do, ill usually encrypt it

okay, well i learnt that im nowhere near employable, need to really step it up

[summer roost]

Remember that your competition for these jobs is people with a 4 year degree, or people with around 4 years of previous industry experience. These are people who have picked up knowledge in areas that someone fresh out of high school doesn't even know exist.

[smoky quest]

don't store passwords

[onyx locust]

use sessions?

[smoky quest]

https://cheatsheetseries.owasp.org/cheatsheets/Password_Storage_Cheat_Sheet.html

[summer roost]

if your system has user accounts, you should never have passwords in your database, only salted (and possibly peppered) hashes.

or better, integrate with OAuth and an identity provider.

[onyx locust]

they are encrypted tho

[smoky quest]

for a junior, I could give it a pass if they have some redeeming qualities. But instant reject for above junior

[summer roost]

that's the wrong thing to do. You should never store passwords, encrypted or not.

[onyx locust]

i was gonna integrate it, i was thinking to refactor it completely and integrate some react for the frontend

[smoky quest]

don't encrypt either

[onyx locust]

fair

my current applicaiton i store passwords but i also did oauth and i just store the users id within the session

password is stored for those that sign up through my own form

[smoky quest]

rule number 1: The interviewer/HM are busy people. They may look at the specific links you sent. They won't peruse through your repo to look for justifications to hire you

Rule number 2: It's safer to pass on a possibly good candidate than take a chance. The damages a hire can do are far greater

[summer roost]

if I do look at someone's github profile, I spend less than 5 minutes looking at it. If I see a bunch of repos with no descriptions, I'll just close it again. I'm not about to start reading your code and guessing what it does.

reading code is hard, and I'm busy. It's not my fault if you can't sell yourself.

[onyx locust]

so if i wanna showcase the code i write, i shouldnt?

[smoky quest]

you can, but be very deliberate about what you do and what you show

[onyx locust]

or show it in the README, like what if its specific peice of code that you are proud of

[summer roost]

If your project is exactly the same as a project everyone else has done, there's probably nothing for me to see in it. There's no chance I see something that impresses me, and only a chance that I look at the code and see something that turns me off.

[smoky quest]

It's like what people call an elevator pitch. Because you only have a few seconds to sell me on your idea

[summer roost]

the projects that are good are the projects that do something cool, or that I wouldn't have thought of doing, or that remix data in a novel way, or things like that.

I don't need to see your hello-world Django app, but if you've done... I don't know, some interesting COVID visualization or something, that might capture my attention.

[onyx locust]

this app is my bread winner. If its unattractive than what does that say about my current prowess

[smoky quest]

To go back to @kind oar 's discussion, I may review 40 resumes at once. I am not gonna spend 1h on each. That would be 40h and basically a whole week
So you have very little time to peek my interest

[onyx locust]

yeah i feel that

if you dont mind, i kinda copped your list from early

I don't see much in terms of:
* Event/streaming processing. So things like SQS/kafka/pulsar/pubsub
* Caching. So things like redis
* General complex processing or coordination
* Anything more complex on the DB side
* No authentication
* Nothing in terms of containers
* Nothing in terms of real time, like websockets or longpolling or whatever

[smoky quest]

focus is key

[onyx locust]

im just trying to absorb 110% of anything a professional is willing ot throw away, i have no guidence

[smoky quest]

as a disclaimer, that's far more advanced than what I would expect from a new grad. But that could help you make up for it from your lack of degree

[onyx locust]

and i gotta say, i didnt know there was that much

[smoky quest]

https://roadmap.sh/ for completeness

[onyx locust]

oh, i thought thats what it takes, but if i have that depth of complexity, its gonna look good ofc?

[summer roost]

Well, I clicked the link to the repo. I'm guessing it's a todo-list manager, but there's nothing in the README that confirms that. There's a link to https://todobutbetter.herokuapp.com which looks to have reasonably high production value, but also renders with a scroll bar on my laptop instead of shrinking to fit, and it includes a white-on-white login button that I can't read until I hover over it.

[smoky quest]

The more skills you can demonstrate, the more it will help you. But there are also other skills at play like your communication and ability to sell yourself

[onyx locust]

yeah im really sorry about that, i wrote this before i knew react, i hand wrote the html and css

[vapid jay]

i am in the ubisoft company is is ok?

[smoky quest]

These are the links you sent to interviewers/HM for review

[summer roost]

well, my first impression is that nothing jumped out at me as impressive. I'm not a web dev, so I have no expertise here, but I spotted something broken in just a few seconds.

[fathom lion]

what do you work as godly?

[summer roost]

are you saying that you work at ubisoft, and asking us if that's a good company? Wouldn't you be in a better position to know that than us?

[summer roost]

a backend dev and systems dev at different points in my career.

[vapid jay]

its the best

i am currently a programmer in it

[fathom lion]

perfect, is it out the ordinary to come across someone in their 30's starting out in your field?

[summer roost]

ok. my impression is that all game companies are relatively bad jobs, compared to other programming jobs. The hours are longer, the pay is lower, there's less job security.

[onyx locust]

you've yet to make your case lmao

[vapid jay]

thats a catch

[onyx locust]

lol, i heard about that, a since i did some opengl with a friend, it took about 35 exectuions to get a result for a single desired change

[summer roost]

yes. Not unheard of, but it's certainly less common than finding someone in their 30s who's been doing it for 10 years.

people do switch careers into software dev, though, of course.

the most successful transitions into software dev that I've seen have been from people who transfer from a non-software-dev role at a company into a software dev role at that same company.

[fathom lion]

I don't have a computer background(carpentry) but I was recently injured and have the opportunity to go back and study but at the same time I feel like I wouldn't be taken seriously

[summer roost]

oh, and game companies often have terrible culture. Activision just fired dozens of people this week over their inappropriate workplace behavior.

[summer roost]

If your background is totally unrelated to software, then expect to start from the bottom and work your way up. You'll be filling jobs where your peer group is around 25 years old, which will likely be at least a bit awkward. That said, software dev is more meritocratic than most other types of skilled labor. If you can develop the skills and prove to employers that you've got them, companies will hire you.

The easiest area to break into is web dev, and bootcamps tend to be geared towards that. Web dev jobs are relatively low pay and low prestige, but there's a lot of them, and the skills barrier to entry is relatively low.

and it might be a good idea to accept any job in the industry to get your foot in the door, and then start transitioning into ones that interest you more or compensate you better.

[fathom lion]

well thats a bit to think about, I hadn't even considered the web dev route

[smoky quest]

it's the most common one for job conversions

[summer roost]

if your goal is backend development, it might also be possible to use DevOps as a stepping stone to get your foot in the door.

It's a whole lot easier to find people who will teach you JavaScript, CSS, and HTML (for web dev) or Docker and Kubernetes and Chef and Grafana (for DevOps) than to self-teach Unix systems programming

[smoky quest]

and distributed systems*

[summer roost]

yeah. Kafka, Redis, relational database design, etc...

once you have a similar job, you can start trying to focus on the areas that interest you most, and parlay that experience into jobs that are more up your alley. Most software devs change companies, or at least teams/positions, every few years, so it's not weird to plan to get your foot in the door with one position and then shift into another later.

[fathom lion]

I'm half way though a python course on an app called memrise so not overly invested. I'm more so playing around to find what I like. I've been playing with Unity and c# too. I'm able to start either a cyber security or programming based tafe course in February. Just haven't decided which way to head

[regal tundra]

oh i didnt know memrise was doing programming languages

[fathom lion]

mimo sorry

[zinc halo]

can you be like, learn web development, game development and cloud .And learn ethical hacking too? Like is this possible?

[summer roost]

Depends on what level of expertise you mean by "learn". Can one person learn the basics of all of those things? Sure. Can you be an expert in all of those things simultaneously? Probably not.

[zinc halo]

by learn I mean top notch expertise

probably not? well ok.

[summer roost]

Top notch? Definitely not. I'd expect it to take around 10 years for someone to gain top notch experience in web development or game development if they were working on nothing else, and even longer for ethical hacking.

[zinc halo]

what the hell...10 years? man, that means it's no joke to be a dev or hacker

[smoky quest]

It's called high tech for a reason

[summer roost]

"Top notch expert" is a really high bar.

[zinc halo]

yep, well I was just asking.

[smoky quest]

it should not stop you from trying though. You can still have a lot of fun with them

[zinc halo]

And how about AI? Anyone got ideas?

[zinc halo]

Yes, these fields are interesting but I'm more into AI. 😓

[smoky quest]

it's more complex than the others...

[summer roost]

If you want to be in even the top 10% of game developers, remember that you're competing against people who've done it for decades. The guy who wrote Doom is still making games. He is an expert.

[zinc halo]

Ah I see...I'll have to work harder. Because I suck at while loops. 😂

@summer roost@smoky questWhat field of programming have you guys been in?

[smoky quest]

backend/ai/ml/startups professionally

[zinc halo]

what is ml?

[elder beacon]

machine learning

[zinc halo]

oh okk.

[zinc halo]

could you share some your experience in ai? pls 👀

[smoky quest]

go to college. That will help you and your career

[zinc halo]

I'm in 10th grade 😓

[summer roost]

For AI in particular, at least a master's degree if not a PhD will be tremendously helpful.

AI requires deeper knowledge than most types of programming.

[smoky quest]

From https://www.k12academics.com/school-grades/10th-grade, it says you are 15-16 years old.
You have plenty of time. So don't sweat it as you aren't as old as us.
You have plenty of time to learn and have fun. Just aim for college

[zinc halo]

Thanks for the info.... 👍

[smoky quest]

Make games, robots and smaller AIs or whatever you want to learn

[zinc halo]

okay thanks... :)

[elder beacon]

Oh btw your advice about github projects above was super helpful, even if I wasn't the guy getting feedback. Do you have any place where you compiled advice like that?

[smoky quest]

Not yet. Wait for my book on amazon in 2022 :p

but glad it was helpful

[elder beacon]

okay time to scroll up and copy paste discord messages

[zinc halo]

@smoky quest@summer roostThanks a bunch for today. :D

[vapid jay]

So I applied to a software engineer job and now they want an interview, and im not even a software engineer...

[near ocean]

why did you apply to a software eng job

[vapid jay]

i applied to mechanical engineering jobs in my field and that one came up, i didnt even notice

i am torn between telling them i believe i am unqualified and just trying my chances

[near ocean]

ok, is it an entry level or junior position?

[vapid jay]

junior position, i should mention i have prior programming experience

[near ocean]

ok so its not that surprising how you got an interview

[vapid jay]

I think they contacted me because I have matlab/simulink and labview experience which is one of the things they want, i just hope i wont get leetcode questions\

[near ocean]

probably definitely will, start grinding

[vapid jay]

😦 i dont know a lot of DS&A

and they want an interview thursday not enough time to really learn anything meaningful

[vapid jay]

here's the job description

its not FAANG

i believe its military related since theres a bunch of security clearances you have to do

[vapid jay]

jo

hi i need some carrer ideas

[near ocean]

Are you currently employed and want to switch to a python related career? are you a student in university or high school? randomly dropping "i need some career ideas" isnt helpful or conducive to discussion

[worthy violet]

Anyone else a Data Analyst that uses Python on top of SQL + data viz tools? I just started using Pandas and I am having a blast learning Python in general. It seems like many DA roles only really need SQL though

[kind oar]

get with the times, not faang anymore

[long charm]

manga

[kind oar]

https://tenor.com/view/mango-omg-mango-gif-23242005

Alright quick question, what's the N?

it isn't one of the big 5

as I said, get with the times 😛

[graceful mason]

Not worked as a data analyst but as an embedded software engineer with a large emphasis on data analysis, and secondments with the data insights and data pipeline teams.

A lot of the time you just don't need python to analyse data. With GCS you can manually query data, save smaller datasets for analysis, and set up queries that will automatically run and be displayed in dashboards with only SQL knowledge

The only time we used python was:

• tools that allowed Devs to run commonly used queries where some element of human interaction was necessary
• scripts used in the CICD pipeline that needed data in some form

[kind oar]

lol

[true harness]

the point isn't to only talk about those specific companies, but for "really big tech company"

[worthy violet]

Interesting! Thanks for sharing your perspective here from this sort of Data Engineering side! I would think you all used Python more.

[kind oar]

Yeah I was just talking about the term FAANG, he took it too seriously.
but I guess with should call the cops since he's going to riot 😛

[true harness]

it seems he was just suggesting that faang typically do DSA questions. I'm not sure where you got that impression

[kind oar]

and faang was specifically meant for big five, N isn't one of them anymore.

Honestly this isn't even an important topic to type about, he can take it as serious as he wants, can't stop him from that.

[graceful mason]

We also have a data dashboard website designed for engineers and product managers to view trends, but that used react + java (but could feasibly have been made using python)

And the end of the day the important thing for data analysis is that you can quickly and easily write complex queries (solid SQL knowledge) and that you can display and communicate the key parts of your analysis to non-technical stakeholders (solid understanding of the data you're working with)

If python is needed for anything it's very easy to pick it up so there is no reason to have that as a blocker for recruiting someone

[kind oar]

how did you handle security? or is it just free for all and the data isn't just for specific departments?

[worthy violet]

You are so right about SQL. I am still a new DA, but I have absolutely noticed how vital pulling data from databased and building visualizations for managers can be.

On your last point: one thing I notice for a lot of DA jobs it to create models in Python like linear regression, etc. Is that something you did as well? Thanks for taking the time to share these things with me

[kind oar]

DA and Data Scientists are big terms, the differ from company to another, no solid description.

Some people use both interchangeably, some companies even call people who can barely use excel "analysts"

in bigger companies, visualization and dashboarding is even mostly handled by the BI team and DAs just do ad hoc stuff and maintenance

[graceful mason]

Dataset access is handled with GCS permissions, web tool access is secured by both a company VPN and a company-wide group based permissions system

[kind oar]

yikes, that must have been hell to maintain, I personally think dashboarding should be done by stuff like PBI and Tableau.

I don't even think the setup costs are even that high these days

[graceful mason]

You can get a lot of numerical insights with just SQL, and stick tables into Excel and make a graph to show regression.

[graceful mason]

Unfortunately the data we work with is way too complex (and partitioned in a complicated way( to use tools like that. The web dashboard takes data from many different datasets and combines them in pretty complex ways

[kind oar]

Pretty sure you can do the same with any viz tool, you just need to do the wrangling and keep it in a single source like a data mart.

I'm only talking about the dashboard part, not the data modeling backend.

but one just have to deal with the hand he's dealt, so it isn't like you can change much about what your company want to do.

[short ore]

can anyone recommend me a country good for data science where i can study and does not has a lot of people & is not competitive, im poor at my grades everything never at my passion

will russia be good, im bad at maths but love data science, bad at physics & love unity & blender

ps got social anxiety

i saw russia is safe for students

[smoky quest]

These are a bit contradictory.
Countries don't build good pipelines/subjects without investing in a sizeable chunk of people.

But besides that, you should not undersell yourself like that. It's not healthy nor helpful. The market is also growing and there are tons of opportunities

[kind oar]

According to my research, for career, US is best.
but stats is important for actual Data Science, so you probably need to work on that.

In the meantime you can do data analysis/BI.

[short ore]

i now but i cannot go to us cuz of some personal cultural reason

eastern side like japan/south korea etc seems nice to me too

[kind oar]

agree, it is good thing you know your week points, so just work on them instead of just giving up to the fact you're bad at math.

The world doesn't bend to anyone's situation.

[short ore]

im mentally kinda weak cuz of being surrounded by people

[short ore]

yup

[near ocean]

Youre gonna find people whichever way you go in life

[kind oar]

your profile says 16, it is too early for you to talk about career.

If you like data science, then work hard and improve your math and stats for the next two years then go into CS or Stats undergrad.

[short ore]

i took commerce anyways and i love it

[kind oar]

you changed the message like 4 times

[near ocean]

Why are you editing your comments, and what do you think the sigmoid function is if not maths

[short ore]

sry to outcome timer

well its ran on code though i don't have to do it on pen & paper in india 99.99% of the teachers will make u do it with pencil

[kind oar]

I've a bachelor of commerce and a decade older than you, so I can just tell you that you don't need to do pure data science.

[short ore]

ohh, so is machine learning better? im good in economics statistics part/nvm im good at economics

[kind oar]

no if you're in commerce then it will be very hard to break into pure data science, you need masters at least to be considered.

[short ore]

damit

[kind oar]

otherwise it is mostly a data analyst job sugar coated with the title data scientist.

[short ore]

duhhh well im self made programmer though why is edu so hard i cannot shift to science it's gone for the good

[kind oar]

if you are 16 weak at math, and think you're good at economics, then I guess you haven't yet dived deep enough.

[short ore]

yes ur forced to memorize formulas and spit it out in exam

[kind oar]

okay buddy, you need to think about what you're writing before you hit enter, it is confusing that you keep editing messages, just take it slow.

[short ore]

i know

i did not have a single minute when i was doing maths

[kind oar]

being good at economics exams isn't the same as being good at economics.

[short ore]

not exam, i understand the subject

[kind oar]

back home, you have your family, but before you even think about moving to a different country, you need to work on those areas.

[short ore]

i do not understand that im not weak mentally, im bad socially not with my family nor the ones whom i did coding with

[short ore]

that is pointing to people of my school/friends i never had etc and being told to hack by my school friends when i told them i know coding

[dapper depot]

please don't use ableist language

[kind oar]

if you can't make friends in school then you need to work on yourself, school is the EASIEST place to make friends, it will only get harder as you grow older.

you're young, you know your weakness, work on them now.

[kind oar]

sure edited.

[short ore]

ty i understand, im super bad at making friends offline but only the teachers understand me, always only teachers

which makes me look even worse, i probably have inability to lie

[kind oar]

you're smart that you're thinking about your weak areas, just be patient and work on them.
best of luck my guy

[short ore]

yesss good night

[kind oar]

good night.

[buoyant seal]

data science is basically all about the math, if you'll go for it to Russia, you will face a lot of math for sure, like probably everywhere in the world for data science 🤔

[real oyster]

so is coding is not as important for data science?

[light radish]

I've been applying to a lot of python related jobs and quite a few ask for AWS experience. Question is what AWS certificate specifically is good to have?

[smoky quest]

in the context of?

[smoky quest]

AWS does have a few certificates they provide themselves

[real oyster]

I’m not sure, someone above just said data science is all about the maths so I was curious if that’s the more important part as opposed to being a better programmer

[smoky quest]

it depends.
There are more research oriented positions, while others are more about producing a model and others more about the applied. Sometimes you are parts of large teams where each person has a more specific role, while you may also be alone and have to take on a lot more hats.
But overall, short of being in the research side, the extent to which you do math will be about understanding the math and being able to leverage it rather than devising purely mathematical constructs

[real oyster]

Ahh gotcha. It’s interesting to know. I feel like I have been stuck trying to decide what to focus on and I was doing some data science course but my maths knowledge isn’t that broad, but I was thinking about going into it

I feel like it’s really hard to decide what career to go into with programming because I have no idea what ‘actual’ jobs in programming and such are like

[smoky quest]

Also to note there are a lots of hype around AI/ML and it can be a pretty overloaded term. There are tons of companies where the extent of their reach is basic linear regression

[real oyster]

Ahh okay, that’s also useful to know. Thank you

[smoky quest]

We are lucky that most areas in CS have a low bar of entry.
So I would recommend to just try and play with them

[real oyster]

I’m in my second year of CS degree, I can program (to an extent, lol) and was thinking of doing like a dataquest course for data science to build up some knowledge and projects. I feel like I get stuck on choosing what to learn and end up doing nothing, when just choosing something would’ve been better lol

[smoky quest]

There are also a lot of things beyond defining a model for a successful AI/ML strategy. You need to understand the problem(s) you are trying to solve, get the data from different DBs in a reliable manner, adjust and normalize it, establish key metrics, and then how do you deploy, monitor and run these models as part of your business?

[smoky quest]

https://www.amazon.com/Hands-Machine-Learning-Scikit-Learn-TensorFlow-dp-1492032646/dp/1492032646/ is a pretty good intro too

[real oyster]

Thanks again. I think I have access to O’Reilly books so I will check it out ^^

[smoky quest]

imho, I do enjoy AI/ML, but more in the startup way where it provides value and is more integrated with the backend. Otherwise it can get a bit boring as the process can be slow and you can be removed from the other parts of the lifecycle. But that's more a personal opinion than anything

[real oyster]

What about the less AI/ML side and more data cleaning, visualisation etc? Or does that align more with data analysis?

[smoky quest]

data cleaning is the least well regarded aspect. It's also typically boring and your customers are not the company's users but the other teams.
Visualization would be part of the DS or BI

[real oyster]

Interesting

[tiny garden]

Hello

How useful is python in AI?

[smoky quest]

very

[tiny garden]

ook

[tiny garden]

thx

[vapid jay]

shit i just lowballed myself in an interview

The recruiter told me the company offers more than i asked lol

[kind oar]

its okay, they most likely will increase you to budget for retention.

and can reach out again and apologize saying you did your research and it seems market rate is blah blah blah.

[vapid jay]

good thing is its an outside recruiter, maybe he'll be nice and make the range higher when he submits my stuff

[kind oar]

ah yeah he will, their commission is based on how much you'd get paid, so just reach out to him directly and talk about it.

[kind oar]

I always find it weird when companies put the title to like:
something something (100% Remote)

then in description you see that they want few days in office for meetings, makes you wonder if those people learnt recruiting for youtube.

like why lol

[vapid jay]

I once applied to a position that said 100% remote and then in the interview they said only the training is remote

[kind oar]

yeah idk what they expect to happen? people would be too committed to tell them to fuck off?

[vapid jay]

its funny because remote work is actually beneficial to companies especially in bay area, they can pay people rates of other cheaper parts of the US, literally win-win for everyone

[kind oar]

it complicates tax stuff and local employment rules.
but my problem with that is why say a job is remote when you want people to come in person? especially if the title says 100%

[vapid jay]

yea makes me not want to work for the company when they outright lie

In my case it was Cognizant too, made it extra suspicious

[kind oar]

yeah this is why i made the youtube click bait joke.

[vapid jay]

lel

[kind oar]

idk what that is, googled and seem to be a consulting firms, generally, consulting is less flexible since all their current clients might be remote now, but maybe they will get new clients who want in person.

you can't really expect stability or things to stay the same way.

[vapid jay]

My current company culture is actually soul crushing

[kind oar]

well, i guess you should try to find another one if you can for your own sanity and mental stability.

[near ocean]

Whats up with the culture, if you dont mind sharing

[kind oar]

@brittle thorn I was actually curious given that you do gigs, do you usually do it on your own personal computer?

I've one client who I just setup a VM just to do his work through there, thinking about creating another one just for general clients.

[vapid jay]

It's very degree centric, you either literally have a PhD or your not respected.

And regardless, all I know is, before getting in I was completely in love with programming, I loved the work I was doing in the previous company. Now, I am no longer having fun at all.

[near ocean]

Are you by any chance in biotech?😂

[vapid jay]

I am not, why?

[near ocean]

What i hear from word of mouth

[vapid jay]

I did not understand

[near ocean]

Its not that important

How did you find this position?

[vapid jay]

I was submitting CVs for my first job search.

Got a job in embedded, and eventually got contacted by this company.

They have an R&D front, close ties to an Uni.

But the actual job ended up not being research related, which was the reason for me applying

I did get a salary raise, but not sure if it's worth it

[vapid jay]

I'm actually a bit afraid of job hoping. It would be my third hop in a row with less than 3 months in a company. Am considering laying low, getting XP, and start a job search.

[kind oar]

well, you don't have to mention the other two, but yeah 3 in 3 months is a lot, it doesn't matter if you don't like the culture, just treat it as work and focus on professional development and your personal life.

[dense mesa]

https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/

I did try this negotiation when getting my PM offer, but their salaries are fixed across the board

[vapid jay]

You're definetly right. I will try my best, but if mental health becomes too much of an issue, I don't think I'll have a choice.

[kind oar]

yup, mental stability is best, but i also think you might be the problem with the respect thing.
It is very unlikely they actually disrespect non PhDs, you might just be senstive.

Also, why do you think they respect others more because they're PhD? these people might have been there longer, or maybe more experienced or maybe have already proven themselves, just take a step back next week and think about it subjectively, it might be just you.

or they could be assholes lol, who knows.

[smoky quest]

There are always ways around it for the right candidate (bonuses, RSU, Options, etc.) and unfortunately also used as a way to force people down sometimes.
But if they have hard bands, it also makes salary increases more difficult

[vapid jay]

I'm actually not the first one complaining. I've seen this on company reviews. Dismissed them as naysayers because was actually excited about them.

[last glen]

hey guys is it possible to land a python job if you're self taught?

[dense mesa]

Yeah I'm gonna ask about any sweets they have for negotiation, otherwise stay for like a year and go

[true harness]

yes, but without anything like a college degree it's very very hard

[last glen]

so is it worth to finish college just for cert while already knowing python? or Uni is a must?

[true harness]

if you're already in college, yeah finish it

[last glen]

no im not just thinking is uni better or college?

[true harness]

what country are you in? in my country those are the same thing

[last glen]

UK

[dense mesa]

College is where you typically go between 16 and 18, uni is for higher education

From a UK perspective, go to any top 30 uni for CS and you'll be fine

[last glen]

okay thank you

[dense mesa]

Are you doing A levels?

[last glen]

no ive finished school few years ago and i was thinking maybe its time to study and I do like programing

[gilded valley]

Do you have any Level 4 qualifications? BTECs or A-Levels or a College Diploma or something? If you do, then you can probably start a bachelors straight away
if not, then you can do a foundation year followed by a bachelors

both are pretty solid choices from an economic perspective. An investment of 3 years+a tax for the next 30 years means your total take home pay is very likely to be higher than if you don't go to university

[last glen]

i havent got anything i finished High Shool not in UK but in Lithuania then moved to UK with family

[gilded valley]

There might be fees issues when it comes to attending a UK university then. But university is an incredibly sensible career choice for the UK and I think for most of the EU

[last glen]

yeah fees might be an issue so ill see about that or other countries like denmark just for uni

[gilded valley]

Other countries probably make a lot of sense. If you can avoid ending up with a UK Student Loan Company loan, that removes a fairly substantial marginal tax

[last glen]

yeah thats true

[vapid jay]

oh yea you guys have student loan problems in the UK too

[gilded valley]

Not really. That gives a skewed picture of thing, it's better to think of it as a tax on people who attend university than a loan

[vapid jay]

hehe

i managed to finished university in the US with no debt,

[kind oar]

Well, it is what it is then, I honestly wouldn't take it personal, just do your work, gain experience.

log off once you log off and focus on your personal life and people.

[vapid jay]

The UK does have the highest education cost at least in europe if i remember correctly

[kind oar]

didn't your name have GPA yesterday?

[vapid jay]

Oh yea it was a meme from another discord lol i changed it to only appear in that discord server

[kind oar]

ah

[smoky quest]

CS jobs are way bigger than being about a single programming language.
Ignoring everything outside of python would be a huge mistake for your future.

[vapid jay]

Doing my research im leaning more and more towards backend dev roles using databases because it seems closer to my background

[vapid jay]

oh btw i got an interview for a software engineering role funny enough]

I applied for like 2-3 software roles for fun and one of them got back to me, now idk what to do since theres no way ill be able to answer leetcode questions

[kind oar]

What's your background

[vapid jay]

I will try my very best to do that.

But it's going to be hard because I know that if I try I'll job hop in no time.

I will try to look at this as a life experience, gaining emotional endurance and whatnot.

[gilded valley]

Loans are paid back as 9% of your salary over £27,000. Loans are forgiven after 30 years. The significant majority, around 80%, of students will not pay back their loans and face no repercussions for it

[kind oar]

yeah and better patience and decision making, changing jobs every 4 weeks isn't good.

[still condor]

Is it a red flag if a company cannot fill a role (pretty general/popular) for a long time?

[kind oar]

But, I'd say even if you had to jump ships again, just don't mention the other jobs and just say you took some time off for personal reason or taking care of a close person or whatever, and just "oh in the meantime I studied blah blah blah and worked on this project" some bs.

[kind oar]

depends, if the ad is just up the recruiters might just be lazy, or the job isn't really critical.

or they might be doing it for visa, or they might just be delusional with their requirements.

[smoky quest]

nice!

[vapid jay]

My career has started 3 months ago

[kind oar]

oh lol, then just don't mention any of them at all, say you were taking some time off after graduating or some bs

[vapid jay]

mech eng

[still condor]

they might be doing it for visa
What do you mean?

[vapid jay]

I don't have a CS degree. The experience I'm getting is actually very valuable in my case

Is job hoping that much of a bad look?

[kind oar]

companies need to prove they didn't find local talent so that is why they're looking to sponsor people from else where.

pretty sure this applies for all countries.

[still condor]

ah, I'm pretty sure it doesn't apply here (especially in the pandemic)

it is half-critical, and the requirements are sorta basic

[kind oar]

idk man, depends on the job, but I'd, and pardon my language, calm the heck down, three jobs is a lot, just mention the current one and if they're asking you why you are looking just say there isn't a cultural fit.

[still condor]

maybe I'm missing some internal stuff though... maybe the recuiters have a sort of a "fetish" on a very specific type of a programmer

[kind oar]

well you can ask them in the interview, doesn't hurt even if you won't work there, take it as a interview-taking training.

[vapid jay]

Alright.