career-advice

[hallow lynx]

Because I had difficulty explaining in an interview that I could learn C++ pretty quickly since they only want someone with basic understanding of it, since I already know Java pretty well and python very well, and they just didn't understand.

Sucks for me because some of my commits are like 20 files in one commit (rather my past ones were).

[true harness]

cpp is not simple to pick up even if you know java and python

[main thicket]

(C++ is not easy given Java and python)

[hallow lynx]

Is it not?

Fair play I also Know C.

[vapid jay]

hey

[main thicket]

C++ is an extremely hard language and it's way more specialised

C is also nothing like C++

[jade pewter]

i think it's the aptitude of the person for a language, if you drive around a C++ project i'm sure you'll pick it up quick

[hallow lynx]

Oh shoot.

[jade pewter]

but like anyting else I wouldn't expect someone to passively learn something

[main thicket]

C++ is straight up difficult. It has lots of C++ specific concepts, lots of ways to shoot yourself in the foot. Every company has their own variant of C++ writing style.

Plus package and project management with C++ is difficult

[hearty island]

C++ != Java and python

I tried learning the basics and nearly died

[main thicket]

I once spent a week installing a C++ library cause CMake sucks

[hearty island]

also the c++ people on the server are douchey

very condescending

[main thicket]

:( sorry

[hearty island]

I guess once you learn c++ you become a god huh

idk

not you Raggy like the people on the actual c++ server

[hallow lynx]

Thanks for the advice guys, don't want to get into a lang argument though so I'm out. thank you 🙂

[main thicket]

You definitely start thinking you're god. It takes some people some time to realise they're not gods at programming but gods at C++ and their experience is meaningless

[jade pewter]

No worries- good luck applying !

[main thicket]

Try the #include server

It's a lot friendlier

[hearty island]

I will check it out

binary search trees for the win

[vapid jay]

Software Engineering is actually worthy it?

Honestly, I've been considering it for a long time at this point

But thing is, I'd have to move out about 200 KM away from home and rent something to live 24/7 if I want to actually do it

[ashen elk]

yeah, if you like staring at your screen at hours trying to find a bug in your code

have you done some basic coding?

[vapid jay]

Yep

[near ocean]

200km isnt much of a distance

[ashen elk]

yeah, then that provides a little window of how SWE in general is

[vapid jay]

I did like it, but I kinda just lose focus after like, 6 hours

[vapid jay]

It isn't, but it isn't nearly a viable of an option to me

Waking up at 3 AM to take a bus isn't viable

[ashen elk]

SWE is kinda same, just that the complexity and the concepts required are ramped as (this being a rough description)

[vapid jay]

What does it include in general?

Might as well try to search about it and find if I'm really cut out for it

[ashen elk]

yeah

[vapid jay]

What type of knowledge does it require?

[near ocean]

I mean moving 200km away isnt that big of a deal

Obviously youre not gonna commute 200km lmao

[vapid jay]

I mean, fair enough?

Problem is that I don't really have a job to pay rent

And I doubt I would actually find a decent job that pays good enough and won't conflict with my uni schedules

[near ocean]

You could study part time and work a part time job to cover expenses

[vapid jay]

Well, maybe?

I got 1 year till I graduate, so I can still think about it and how I want to proceed about it

[near ocean]

Most govs and unis have stipends for students in a tight financial spot

[ashen elk]

uhh...what is your major?

[vapid jay]

I'm planning on doing SWE

[ashen elk]

Like which course are you doing in college?

[vapid jay]

...SWE?

I don't quite get what you mean?

[ashen elk]

that's a course? nvm me then

[vapid jay]

Do you mean a degree?

[ashen elk]

yeah

[vapid jay]

Yeah, I'm PLANNING

on doing Software Engineering

[ashen elk]

so currently you are not in any CS courses right?

[vapid jay]

Nope

[ashen elk]

because a bachelors in computing takes like 4 years

[marsh wind]

Reminds my struggle with Fortran compiling 😂

[vapid jay]

I'm willing to spend these few years

To be honest, I don't even plan on actually working as a SWE

I just need a degree to sign up for a federative job

Something similar to US' FBI

I could do free-lancing jobs, though

But thing is, I don't want to have a useless degree if plan A fails, I want something that actually helps me stay afloat on the job market

so my second option is working as a programmer, since I'm kind of interested on coding

which leads to this moment

[main thicket]

Software engineer ≈ programmer

[marsh wind]

Just a fancier name :)

[near ocean]

Dont go into debt for a degree youre not that excited for is my advice of the day

[vapid jay]

I don't have to pay for my degree, thankfully

my state covers the expenses, since it's a public university

It's among the best of the country, so yeah

[ocean ledge]

i have literally never heard of anyone with that major

[vapid jay]

As a major, do you mean a bachelor degree?

Because that's what I'm getting

[ocean ledge]

the only language that does that is haskell

[hearty island]

@ocean ledge does what? Sorry I have a goldfish memory

[ocean ledge]

turn you into a god

[hearty island]

oh

I wouldn’t know

[ocean ledge]

ascend, my child

[hearty island]

you want to be in the FBI

but your second option is being a coder??

ok

[ocean ledge]

a degree in software engineering? as opposed to computer science?

[hearty island]

ooh I don’t know

all I have heard from one friend who does a SWE major is it’s less math

and more theory

[ocean ledge]

that sounds useless

[hearty island]

but you’d do the same amount of coding in CS

[ocean ledge]

just go to a bootcamp then

[hearty island]

so it really doesn’t matter

also you’re self teaching in both majors and even if you go the bootcamp route

there is no hand holding

just to make that clear

[vapid jay]

I don't really plan on joining the Army on anything

[ocean ledge]

?

thats irrelevant

[vapid jay]

.

Basically, I want to join the Federal Police

[ocean ledge]

yes, a bootcamp for the google army

[vapid jay]

Wait, what are you even talking about?

[ocean ledge]

or facebook, if that fits your fancy

[vapid jay]

Elaborate?

[ocean ledge]

coding bootcamps-- short term training programs for learning how to code

[vapid jay]

Oh

[ocean ledge]

like generalassembly, metis, etc

[vapid jay]

How do I join one of those?

[hearty island]

Bootcamps were good 5-10 years ago

[ocean ledge]

you apply to them, like schools

[hearty island]

now there’s so many of them that are just designed to rob you

they realized that selling shovels during the gold rush was more profitable than mining the gold themselves

metaphorical example ^

[vapid jay]

I see

[marsh wind]

also, if you don't have to pay for degree and it's good Uni it's likely not a bad path to take

[craggy wave]

Degrees are valuable. It really helps with landing that first job.

You can get a first programming job here without a degree, but it's much more difficult

You'd basically have to go out of your way to show that you've got something of value in another way

[marsh wind]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_major

it's usually a US terminology

[craggy wave]

And I'm not saying that it's how it should be, I'm just saying that's what it is (degrees can be really important)

In fact, I work for a consulting company. In about 90% of the tenders we see, the client specifically asks for developers with a degree even if they're looking for a medior/senior dev with 5+ years experience (where the experience is arguably far more important than the degree.)

[pulsar drum]

I've been explicitly rejected before for not having a degree 🙃

[marsh wind]

are not you the person who worked a lot on snekbox and some other clever shenenigans of python bot ? 🙂

[craggy wave]

Mark's a magician

[marsh wind]

yeah, that's what I meant

[pulsar drum]

Yeah this was before I was in this community though.

[marsh wind]

oh, ok. I know it's also quite country dependent

I guess in countries where education is cheap or free they'd want pretty much everyone to have a degree

[pulsar drum]

I initially didn't plan to get a bachelors but after trying my luck and failing I just went for it to make the search easier later.

[vapid jay]

Ah

That's why I wasn't understanding it

My country doesn't have a direct term for that

[marsh wind]

yeah I was confused for a while about it

[pulsar drum]

I'm in the US where education is definitely not cheap or free 😭

[vapid jay]

Thankfully, my education is free

and also good

[pulsar drum]

Well, it's free for me because of my circumstances, so it wasn't as difficult of a choice to go for the bachelors after all.

[craggy wave]

We do have cheap education here. The tuition fee is currently fixed at € 2.143,- per year, so that's a little over 10k for a 5 year degree.

[marsh wind]

funnily, people from both camps assume that everyone around has same system 🙂 so I saw both people like you (and me) and others asking me what I majored in and not understanding how can I have no major/minor (I did not even mentioned that I couldn't choose my courses whatsoever)

[vapid jay]

lol

[main thicket]

It is very common outside the US

Canada and Australia specially

[ashen elk]

hmmm...then the DS course is named "Data Science"?

that seems....inefficient

[main thicket]

And it's generally not "useless" or anything. Actually big N companies completely simp for SoftEng graduates from places like Waterloo

Highly prestigious

[vapid jay]

What else would complement SoftEng, though?

[main thicket]

What else would complement SoftEng as what?

[vapid jay]

Increase my chances of actually landing a job, since the market standards are raising by the minute?

From what I've gathered, only the degree isn't enough

[main thicket]

Personal projects are more than enough

Do personal projects -> get internships
Do internships -> get full time jobs

*internship culture isn't a thing everywhere necessarily

[vapid jay]

I see

[main thicket]

Engineer is a protected title in Canada and you need an engineering degree to call yourself an Engineer of any kind

(CS degrees don't count)

[ashen elk]

hmm...do high school kids normally do internships in you guys' countries?

[vapid jay]

Nope

[ashen elk]

I heard its easier to get into colleges (apart from jobs) with internship experience

[main thicket]

Normally high schoolers don't get any internships almost anywhere unless nepotism or government internship program
(this isn't necessarily true for countries like germany with a more vocational education type system)

[main thicket]

nepotism or government internship programs (NASA, DoE, etc)

or there's some universities that take in some cleverer high schoolers as "interns" for "research experience"

[ashen elk]

does that help in getting to more prestigious unis or jobs

[main thicket]

probably a bit for prestigious unis. Can't comment on jobs, but probably a bit too

Anything that shows your interest + active engagement in a university application tends to help it

[hearty island]

Is nepotism giving things based on clout

[ashen elk]

cool then, I would look to hop in to one

[main thicket]

family or friend connection

[hearty island]

oh ok

[ashen elk]

I just emailed the company directly about an internship lol and they just forwarded to the correct person

no family or friend connection; no nepotism

but that usually helps right?

[main thicket]

It's SoftEng degrees specifically. Specifically it's every single engineering degree that's approved by Engineers Canada as a valid engineering program, that's itself is supposed to match the guidelines written in the Washington Accords, an international agreement on engineering education, training and licensure between many big countries

CS degrees don't match the requirements for engineering degrees so they aren't included

[main thicket]

it sometimes works, but usually doesn't

companies don't have the time to bring in a bunch of random high schoolers

[ashen elk]

yeah, it was a startup

I got in, but my school's work ex wasn't gonna start then. its gonna open now, so imma mail them again to see if they can take me

[main thicket]

Wait are you a high schooler? @ashen elk

[ashen elk]

yea

[main thicket]

that makes more sense

[craggy wave]

Some companies have programs for high school students (at least here). The company I work for has such a program, but most actual longer term internships are for third year bachelor students or master students. Some also do a thesis project with us.

[ashen elk]

sad

[craggy wave]

A CS degree here is 3 years of bachelor + 2 years of master; a software engineer program is typically 4 years and one level below university, which is called hogeschool here (or applied university)

now, our education system is (over)complicated

[marsh wind]

lmao

[ashen elk]

American?

[marsh wind]

tell that to french one

[craggy wave]

It's the Dutch one. We love to layer education, so we split by level early and it never stops.

[main thicket]

germany does the same

french education system is nowhere near as complicated as dutch/german

it's just bac and then two streams of university

imagine splitting off in grade 4

[craggy wave]

This is a simplification of our system: https://ebrary.net/htm/img/29/431/4.png

VMBO is actually split up into several independent levels as well, which isn't depicted here

Typically, students that go the highest VMBO level, VMBO-T, go to the same school as HAVO and VWO, while lower VMBO levels generally have separate schools

And about halfway through VWO/HAVO, you'll need to pick a specialisation profile that will dictate which majors you can pick

[lucid vapor]

That's a simplification?

That seems complicated.

[craggy wave]

It's missing a few of the level splits

but it's the best English one I could find

[lucid vapor]

That's very complicated.

[craggy wave]

This zooms in on that middle section and has those layers: https://media.springernature.com/original/springer-static/image/chp%3A10.1007%2F978-3-030-33824-4_9/MediaObjects/489609_1_En_9_Fig1_HTML.png

but not the rest

The red circle are your picks for high school (minus special education)

[ashen elk]

wow. indian system is pretty simple: Engineer OR no engineer.
if Engineer = give JEE:
else die from depression
if no engineer:
else get into AIIMS or die from depression

[craggy wave]

The blue circle layers are typically combined into one physical building, although the students are strictly split into layers. They won't have classes together.

[swift veldt]

oy

@marsh wind can weep with me

[craggy wave]

Seems like you split fairly late compared to the Dutch system, if I'm reading that right

[swift veldt]

the French bac is at 17-18yo

which is one year later than the SAT for instance iirc.

"vocational" is a rare thing in France

[craggy wave]

Our first split happens at about 12 years old, when you enter high school

[swift veldt]

it's seen as a step down, education-wise.

which is a shame.

[lucid vapor]

You enter high school when you're 12?

[marsh wind]

man, I'll mist the ukrainian system 🙂

[craggy wave]

We basically have three phases, primary school (4-12), high school (12-?), and something after that (age range not easy to specify)

The ? depends on the level

But, you typically go to university when your 18 (some are 17, but that's fairly rare)

[marsh wind]

when I'll have kids I've to make sure to send them out of France around 17-18 yo 😂

[swift veldt]

lol

the question is where ofc.

unless you can drop your kids at the X ofc.

or HEC

[marsh wind]

btw I know some ppl (German + Italy couple) who said they don't want to put their kids through the hell of prepa + grand ecole and sent them off to some other EU country Unis

well I don't have kids planned atm, so I'll have time to figure that out 😂

[swift veldt]

I went through a prepa, and I'd not recommend if you have the money to send your kids abroad.

my prepa years were quite the shitshow.

imagine, a 2-year cramming program after a SAT.

to get into a ivy-league style school.

To get into the top-10 of French schools (business or engineering), most of the spots are/were (it slowly changes) usually reserved for prepa students who've crammed for that long.

every year around May-June you have the 'Admissions' which are nationwide exams where all prepa students are pitted against each other to get to those schools.

it's a bit like the GaoKao in China.

[marsh wind]

that's what I heard from most people. that prepa is quite a hell in most places cause it's grind grind grind

[swift veldt]

yep

I was in a sort of boarding school. Basically I was living in the Lycée during the week.

classes from 8 to 8 everyday, then exams on saturday, and you usually study till midnight-1am.

[marsh wind]

it does give you (if succeed and get into grand ecole) some of the best career options after.

[vapid jay]

Sounds tough

[marsh wind]

assuming that you don't drop out

[vapid jay]

But I assume it was very beneficial, no?

[swift veldt]

yeah, well. Look at me back to school because I was bored at my 'career option' lol.

[swift veldt]

it depends.

I honestly believe a prepa is a waste of time and energy. I think students should go for exchanges abroad via university programs instead.

prepas are rather a 'fake elitism' program.

[marsh wind]

for what I heard from others is that all this grinding is needed to get into the grand ecole. But actual skills you get there ain't all that usefull and etc

I guess not all prepa are the same

[swift veldt]

actually, it's not. A lot of students with rich parents, the 'fils et filles de', will go for parallel admissions where it's mostly an admission based on your profile.

nowadays, I'll say that 50% of spots are for prepas, and 50% are for parallel admissions.

but it's mostly because of the influx of foreign students that we've seen this change. French grande écoles are looking to 'internationalize' and therefore are offering more openings to foreign students, while creating bachelor programs you can access after your BAC, modulo a €15k tuition fee per annum.

tl;dr, the prestige of prepas has sunk over the past 8 years because of money grabbing by private schools in France.

when I went to EDHEC in 2012, I paid 32k for my whole education. in 2020, it was 48k. so a 50% increase in 8 years. Of note, the median French salary is about 21k a year.

yep. Not as crazy as the fees you see in the US, for sure, but there are also much fewer scholarship options available compared to the US.

[marsh wind]

from what I saw, best way, career-wise these days in France is alternance

[swift veldt]

alternance is great yeah.

[marsh wind]

especially if you cannot get to grand ecloes

[swift veldt]

though the number of opportunities with Covid has cratered.

[rapid tangle]

Hey guys, can you recommend a website where I could make some projects as a freelancer? This seems like a good way to get started...

[hearty island]

unpopular opinion: freelancers don't really use websites for freelancing

they use contacts at companies bc they have a whole network

[lucid vapor]

Don't they use connections?

[hearty island]

yeah

that's what I was trying to say

my bad

stay away from sites like fiverr and upwork

if you're going to do freelancing

[lucid vapor]

Okie.

Sounds like some solid advice.

[main thicket]

Freelancing is really hard at an entry level and you'll have to be working for real cheap

[rapid tangle]

Ok, but why? I just wanted to start somewhere and I don't know exactly how much I should know before beginning to work with code.

[main thicket]

Start building projects. If you can make real things that work, document them and apply CI to them, etc. you can work in a commercial environment professionally

If you can do those things, you can just start applying to jobs

[rapid tangle]

I wanted to do some freelancing because like that I could see how much I need to know if I want to work with coding, what clients usually wants, etc.

[main thicket]

Freelancing is a worse idea for that, you're now expected to produce the result if you take it on. If you take on something you can't handle, that's a mark on you

If you start working in a company, they'll train you, guide you

Your code will get reviewed by someone better

[rapid tangle]

Hm... I see.

It's just that...companies seem to want people that know many things to begin with.

[main thicket]

There's entry level positions. Also look for recruiting/hiring agencies

Those agencies get the positions with lower requirements

[rapid tangle]

Like...they want someone who knows at least 2 or 3 languages, etc. I'm focusing on just Python right now, so...well...

[fossil ruin]

I have friends that started freelancing by just going to local businesses with poor websites and offering to upgrade them for about 70% of the market norm

[main thicket]

You can still apply. Many places that say they want 2 languages will be okay as long as you know one well

[rapid tangle]

Oh, nice then.

[main thicket]

The requirements are generally "this is what you need to be good at this position" not necessarily "we're strictly looking for this"

Honestly I'm a super competitive applicant and I don't think I've ever seen a position where I match more than 80% of requirements

[lucid vapor]

If you're good at what they need, they'll hire you.

[rapid tangle]

I see...

[hearty island]

fluke says requirements are a wishlist for companies

[fossil ruin]

Is it better to know 1 language really well rather than to know 2 on a decent level

[lucid vapor]

You should know a second semi-well.

Enough to make simple programs.

But if you know one really well, then that's great.

It depends on the job though.

[main thicket]

You're being hired to do a job, not know languages. Know what's useful for that particular job

[rapid tangle]

I see. And I'll just know if I know a language really well if I apply and make their exams?

[main thicket]

Some jobs you can do fine with only one language, some jobs you need two or more.

[lucid vapor]

That's up to you. You need to be able to judge that for yourself, based on what the job is.

[main thicket]

Hit up local hiring agencies, they'll hire with lower requirements and often won't have technical interviews

[rapid tangle]

I've seen a code teacher comment that, when someone starts coding profissionaly, they usually have a lack of confidence because they always feel like they don't know enough to do some job.

[main thicket]

Depends highly on the person

[rapid tangle]

And that you would only know if you know well or not if you work with it, do the job, etc.

[rapid tangle]

I see...

Thanks!

[atomic plover]

i will like to know what is like to be a software developer, what languages are the most common and what should i learn, is there good job opportunities out there, will i have to do a lot of freelance to stay a float, what is it like in general and what other knowledge do i need outside of programming like mathematics, physics? and other stuff

im thinking of becoming one

[little trellis]

There is always work for good software developers. Why don't you try writing some Python and see if you like it? 🙂

[atomic plover]

i know python and javascript

i was studying for web developer but i dont like it anymore

im thinking of changing

[little trellis]

What parts did you not like about web development?

[atomic plover]

css mostly

i liked javascript and python and all that is related to programming

like actual programming not like css

i like the logic

[little trellis]

Do you like data, building apis, working with databases?

[main thicket]

The roles are split between frontent and backend

If you don't like the CSS HTML parts, you can just do backend

[atomic plover]

never worked with databases though

im into building apis though

[main thicket]

Yeah look into backend webdev

[little trellis]

If you're looking for stuff to experiment with and learn, I'd probably start looking into databases. That'll be your bread and butter as a back end dev

[atomic plover]

Even though a friend of mine that knows about programming told me that databases was extremely boring

[little trellis]

Build some apis that interface with them. Simple stuff like getting things from the database, inserting into the database, updating and deleting. Generally referred to as a CRUD app

Depends on the person. I find databases interesting. There is a lot to learn about them and so many different ways they are structured. You have SQL, No SQL, Graph, ect... and all solve problems differently and have different options that vary.

You don't have to love databases but you will have to work with them as a back-end dev

To get back to the root of your question though, there are plenty of options out there other than front-end web development

[atomic plover]

i dont like the idea of freelance to be honest and i will like something with a good amount of logic.
thats why i dont like css there is no logic in it (in the sense of proggraming logic) and i really like the idea of making procedures that execute and work in and especific order, in css there is nothing like that you only define the styles that you want in your webpage

[hearty island]

I refuse to listen to anyone if they say HTML/CSS is a coding language

[little trellis]

You might like data engineering then @atomic plover

[hearty island]

and I don't understand why my school curriculum started with HTML/CSS

it is not a good precursor for python

or any language

[little trellis]

Yeah, that's what I started off with as well. Don't get me wrong, it's very useful whenever you need to build a front-end for something but it is frustrating and the skill-set is less transferable to other development tasks.

[hearty island]

HTML/CSS is definitely important for web dev

it may be more interactive for kids

but I still would have preferred Python over that

[atomic plover]

they are markup languages or as i like to call them display languages, because that is all they do, define the way things are gonna display pretty much and they are not considered programming because they dont execute

[near ocean]

Html and css are immediately visible which helps with kids and their tiny attention spans

[lucid vapor]

It's not just for kids. It depends on what you like to work on.

[little trellis]

I still view them as essential for every developer to know

[lucid vapor]

At least if you're working with front end.

[little trellis]

Even as a data engineer I need to parse HTML or scrape things. There are times when I need to put together a basic front-end for things as well.

Many times where I need to traverse the developer console in Chrome.

[hearty island]

I would have much rather they use python than HTML/CSS

These were some pretty smart kids

[lucid vapor]

I use both, and they both work well together.

[atomic plover]

look i have always thought that python should be marketed towards kids(instead of html) because i genuinely like programming with it and its really easy to learn

[lucid vapor]

If you know both, that's really useful.

[little trellis]

With JSX the line between code and html/css has gotten thinner

So in libraries like React it is essential.

Not really a counter point as that is front-end, just a point.

[lucid vapor]

Yeah, I use Next a lot, so knowing both is super important.

[atomic plover]

Lets be honest nothing is better than scratch😤

[little trellis]

You'll never know that you need HTML as someone who works on the back end until the api you're working with responds with it lol

[flint tendon]

Yeah I remember spending hours on scratch when I was in 3rd grade

[little trellis]

Scratch is pretty cool.

I think platforms like if this then that would be better teaching mechanisms now.

[atomic plover]

one day i found out that the entire game of geometry dash was made in scratch wow🤯

[flint tendon]

lol, I remember someone made a FPS game. it was pretty decent for scratch as well.

[delicate bane]

im signing up for a database class this fall

[little trellis]

Hell yeah @delicate bane! The good stuff

[delicate bane]

these are some of the topics:
 Advanced Relational Database Design,  Storage and File Structure
 Indexing and Hashing,  Query Processing and Optimization
 Application Security,  NOSQL

yeah i thought it might be useful for my future career

even tho i might not get credit for it

[little trellis]

Definitely enough on that list to keep you busy haha. Super important for any data professional to know their way around SQL.

Why no credit?

[delicate bane]

mainly bc of my major. i think i can get approval maybe

so we shall see

[little trellis]

Interesting, would think that would be a part of the curriculum

[hearty island]

God the only database stuff I know is basic SQLite

like barely

[delicate bane]

its a core class for the data engineering grad students

[hearty island]

Well

It sounds great

[little trellis]

Yeah, that makes sense. Would think they would want the ML people to know it as well as they're the ones who will have to use it to access their data

[delicate bane]

i think its just a matter of limited spots

bc i know some data eng students who werent able to get in and had to be waitlisted

i-

[lucid vapor]

I want to use Postgres.

[little trellis]

SQLite is a great starting point @hearty island

[lucid vapor]

Is it worth it?

[delicate bane]

they have a distributed and parallel computing class too and i wanted to take that but then i was like...

[little trellis]

Yeah, for sure. I love Postgres. My DB of choice for personal projects.

[delicate bane]

am i going into data eng...?

[hearty island]

@little trellis yeah I’m just in binary search tree hell rn

[delicate bane]

[hearty island]

perhaps

[little trellis]

Also probably a super cool class

[delicate bane]

[little trellis]

@lucid vapor With Docker you can get a Postgres server up and running in a few minutes

[delicate bane]

[hearty island]

Should I keep plowing through DS/algos

[delicate bane]

maybe i will try to do a project with postgres + docker in that databases class

[lucid vapor]

I'm using it with Node for this project, but I might use it with python later.

Unless I could set up a postgres server in Python to use with JS.

Or do I not make sense

[little trellis]

Only as long as you're still learning and having fun. If not, then have a break and work on learning something else then go back.

[little trellis]

That would be cool. Postgres is a good place to start since you can learn SQL well and then pretty much any other SQL based DB will be essentially the same. So you can move over to the cloud and use BigQuery or whatever with little pain.

[delicate bane]

I know some MySQL

[little trellis]

I'd probably stick with what you're doing. There's really not a whole lot of difference between using Postgres with Node vs Python.

[lucid vapor]

I see.

[delicate bane]

BigQuery would be cool tho

[little trellis]

In fact Node might be better performing there as it handles async better than Python does.

BigQuery is where it's at. I miss it

[delicate bane]

[little trellis]

I live in Azure and SQL Server land now and it's not the same

[delicate bane]

you sound like my cloud friend

[little trellis]

I miss being able to run simple ML models in BigQuery on TB of data to get a baseline

[delicate bane]

not anymore. sad

[little trellis]

Nah, Google Cloud really is far ahead when it comes to ML services.

[delicate bane]

thats what ive heard

and i really want to check that out

but i think the company i might intern with this summer uses AWS

[little trellis]

No harm in grabbing those free GCP credits and looking around.

[delicate bane]

true

i think i have some

[little trellis]

AWS is fine. There's a lot going on in there.

[delicate bane]

i just dont know what i would do

ig make a project?

[little trellis]

Play around with the public datasets in BigQuery

[delicate bane]

they have any good ones?

[lucid vapor]

We should probably move to #databases so we don't flood this channel.

[delicate bane]

true

actually lets go to #data-science-and-ml

[lucid vapor]

Okie

[delicate bane]

that place is livelier

[little trellis]

They have some google analytics for the google merch store which is useful for learning to build marketing models like propensity predictors.

Sure thing

[brittle field]

[hearty island]

oh boy

some company that ghosted me like months ago is like hey we’re doing a second round of internships

it’s a company called patent plus

but I think it’s unpaid so I don’t really care

I refuse to simp for unpaid jobs

it’s not even a job at that point it’s volunteering

[little trellis]

Yeah unpaid is a strange practice

[hearty island]

If it’s such a “new and groundbreaking idea” why don’t they have enough money to pay interns?

dude deadass said this company is going to drive patent law into obscurity

😐😐😐

“Automate patent law” my ass

It’s gonna be a long time till AI automates law lmao and even then humans would want to stay in control of that

I don’t really trust companies when they say their work is groundbreaking and innovative

[little trellis]

Yeah law is one of those things where it is pretty ripe for automation but legislation will not keep up

All buzzwords

[hearty island]

What’s it called

Yeah

“Disrupting the industry”

every time I read that phrase I cringe

[little trellis]

Lol one of the favorites

Fast paced

[hearty island]

“We work all day”

“This is a real man’s job”

[little trellis]

Open work space that promotes collaboration

[hearty island]

I am fine with open work spaces

If I get along with the coworkers

[little trellis]

Not a fan. Too many distractions and no privacy

[hearty island]

but if they’re gonna be using nerf guns on each other 24/7 I’m not going to be happy

and if they’re loud

also also

“Our workers will be your new company family”

“We welcome you into our family”

[little trellis]

Lol yup all over the place

[hearty island]

what family

Family of people who would sell me out to HR in a heartbeat?

this isn’t the office

we’re not going to get into a big circle holding hands and singing kumbaya right

[little trellis]

You might as a team building exercise

[hearty island]

Oh lord have mercy

[summer roost]

I've worked in places with open work spaces, places with cubicles, places with shared offices (2 people per), and places with private offices. The open work spaces are by far my favorite.

[hearty island]

it’s always the startups who are like omg we’re so revolutionary for using ML/AI

[little trellis]

A good open work space is better than cubicle hell or a bad anything else

[hearty island]

@summer roost you got along w the coworkers with those open work spaces right?

Cubicle farms are hell

That is how canon is set up

Whenever it was take your child to work day all I saw at canon was endless cubicles

[little trellis]

Haha sounds like a fun place to be as a kid

I think I’ll stay remote for as long as possible now

[hearty island]

they had cookies and team building activities it was fun

I met kids who I had no intent in remembering their names

Oh boy now this dude is criticizing me bc I asked if the position was paid

[summer roost]

for the most part, yeah.

[hearty island]

“I don’t get why students have this false perception that internships should be paid”

“You don’t deserve to get paid you don’t have the skills yet”

[summer roost]

don't take that job. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[hearty island]

oh boy this is turning into a shit show really quickly

Block

[little trellis]

Yup sounds bad

[summer roost]

open offices can be a bit noisier than other offices, but not by as much as you might think. They're not necessarily louder than cube farms. And everyone brings headphones anyway - and gets good at tuning out chatter that's happening further than a few desks away

[hearty island]

I don’t do headphones during work

I don’t listen to music during work or anything

[summer roost]

the only really noisy desks I ever had were right along a walk way near a bathroom - people would walk by talking to friends on their way to lunch of to get a snack or whatever.

[hearty island]

It distracts me

[little trellis]

I care more about a good setup and some natural light than the office layout I guess

[hearty island]

if I get along w the coworkers open offices are ok

[little trellis]

I like podcasts or simple piano music

[summer roost]

^ and that's a problem with both open offices and cube farms, and also with lab style setups.

I found private offices to be extremely isolating. Poor team cohesion at places where ICs had private offices, no one knew what anyone else was working on, few opportunities to learn from more knowledgeable people, etc.

[little trellis]

Some interesting points there for sure

[delicate bane]

[hearty island]

I am worried that I won’t like my coworkers along w a open office

that doesn’t sound fun

[summer roost]

you'll have a bad time if you don't get along with your coworkers, regardless of the office layout.

[hearty island]

Yeah that’s true

[summer roost]

and, people in open plan office spaces are just as encouraged to take non work related conversations to break rooms and away from their desks. It's not like people will be sitting next to you chatting about random stuff all day long.

conversations held at or near desks are usually at least tangentially work related, even if they're not things that you're personally working directly on.

meaning that you get something out of hearing them, anyway.

[hearty island]

It’s fine

I like talking

And I get along with most people anyways

I don’t think I have much to worry about

[summer roost]

I'm sure all of this varies from company to company anyway. When you're there for an on-site interview, pay attention to how noisy the working areas are. You can usually get a pretty good idea of what the normal level of background noise for a particular office is pretty quickly.

[hearty island]

Got it

thanks for the advice

[delicate bane]

when companies do this its bc they already have a candidate right?

[summer roost]

One possible reason for that, if it's a US company: the company may want to hire an H1B worker, which comes with a requirement that they post the job for US workers first, and check a box saying they were unable to fill it. No idea if that's what happened here, but maybe

[vapid jay]

Is there a special keyboard for coding?

[digital fjord]

no

[vapid jay]

depends

any keyboard can be special if you comfortable with it

[swift veldt]

the keyboard does not make the coder. Take the one that fits you the best.

[sweet mist]

My first ever

[inner wren]

Hey @sweet mist!

It looks like you tried to attach a Python file - please use a code-pasting service such as https://paste.pythondiscord.com

[sweet mist]

Programme

https://paste.pythondiscord.com/gufipegoha.sql

My first ever python programme

can someone run it and give me marks out of 5?

please

@icy berry ?

[swift veldt]

This not the channel for this.

[vapid jay]

Thx

[tepid folio]

Hey what all comes under data science engineering? Do you guys think it's gonna be worth it ? I'm kinda confused whether I should be taking cs/data science/AI...do you guys think the placements different in them?

[coral stream]

Is raggy there? Hey raggy I just wanna ask if OOP in python is a huge part of programming robotics. Is this the most efficient way of programming in python for robotics or does basic syntax work better but branch out in a more complicated manner

[main thicket]

OOP is just a thing. Not a massive thing, just a thing that shows up. Would suggest focusing on using programming to implement theory, not for the sake of writing software, at least for now

Making proper software is what CS majors are for. Our job is to implement algorithms they don't know enough physics and maths to implement

[coral stream]

Alright, thank you raggy that cleared some things up

[hearty island]

OOP is good for data structures

it is a good way to organize functions

[ocean ledge]

oop is good for nothing

[mental rune]

Hey all, quick question: I know how to make basic programs with relative ease and I've recently started to dip into Machine Learning.

On a scale of 1-10, how employable do you think I am given my current skill? :)

[ocean ledge]

uh

[mental rune]

Ps. I'm not expecting anything above a 5, but I'd like to know anyway because it's quite hard to gauge on a first-person view.

[ocean ledge]

define basic programs, dipping into ML, and what is your background

[mental rune]

Been trying to make games for 4 years but never finished a project up until a few months ago. That project wasn't even a game, it's a password encryption program. Also made a discord bot with google search & calculator commands.

As for ML, I'm very much in the introduction stage. Nothing presentable as of yet.

[ocean ledge]

okay, then that's irrelevant

you have some portfolio projects, thats good-- how about educational background/previous experience

internships?

[mental rune]

Graduated Highschool, attending Senior high-school as ICT student. A lot of the things being taught here I already knew before I enrolled so that's nice (perhaps not so nice, but additional projects do help). I've never been in an internship but I'm looking forward to getting into one. :)

[ocean ledge]

then like, a 2

give or take .5

[echo cliff]

who is from which country?

[ashen elk]

doesnt't completing a degree automatically gets you to about 4 or 5?

[sick fog]

Hey everyone, I'm interviewing with a new company and the next round is a paired programming interview. I've worked in DevOps for 6 years but I've only had individual programming tests. Would any of happen to have any advice?

[lucid vapor]

@sick fog Do you know the person?

[vernal sphinx]

anybody from Indian Education system ,
can tell me what should i so after 12 to pursue programming,
i mean should i give jee
I Heard BCA and BSC are not good and B.Tech CSE is good but for that you need to clear JEE

[burnt wren]

[Company] also reviews applications question-by-question rather than applicant-by-applicant. This requires each answer to stand alone, further devaluing the resumé, and research seems to indicate this blinding gives applicants a fairer shot. A bad or great answer early doesn’t impact a reviewer’s opinion of a question later.

I wonder then if my 3-minute read answer to their question (6-minute read total to all questions) in their application form would have been appropriate. Folks advised to keep my answer short and succinct, and the 6-minute read to an application is a no-go / no company has time for that. The person who wrote what I quoted above even says "my application was almost six pages, each question being basically a short blog post" and he got past the application phase, and was able to move on to an interview.

[mighty hearth]

omg

i just joined and my brain is already

hurting

i dont think this server is for people like me ngl

[hearty island]

ok?

[sick fog]

I do not unfortunately.

[lucid vapor]

Then take the time to talk to them if you have even 5 minutes.

It's best to know something about them and what they do in the realm of programming.

[sick fog]

Thank you, that's great advice. I've been advised to not simply answer each question independently, and instead to treat it as a team effort by suggesting your approach and discussing it. Do you concur?

[hearty island]

that is a great approach for a team

[lucid vapor]

Yes, that's always a great approach.

[hearty island]

if you have a team you should always be doing that

[ocean ledge]

yeah, i would say-- but he doesn't have a degree

[hallow lynx]

What are some good projects I could make and put into my portfolio in general? Talking python stuff.

[hearty island]

!projects

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[hallow lynx]

Thank you.

[warm bear]

Thank you so much fr sharing

[tardy pine]

Hi Guys, I need some advice! I work for a fortune 100 non-tech company as a SWE but im on my fourth job in four years. I've spent 4 years doing mediocre coding when I know I have way more talent than what im being used for and I'm just looking to see if I can talk to someone about career advice. I'm the most educated in my friend group and have no one to really turn to discuss my career with because none of my friends are SWE's.

[hearty island]

you should try talking directly to recruiters

if you have that much experience already and you have the expertise I don't see why recruiters wouldn't listen to you

[opaque field]

Hey! I’m Hari from India

How to start python beginners to advance?

[hearty island]

but I'm just a college student so I don't think I'm qualified to give advice

[summer roost]

What kind of advice are you looking for? What kind of software do you build?

[brazen dome]

halo i want to ask about data scientist things, does a data scientist should learn a data engineer things too or not? also can a data scientist done by remote work? i mean like applied job in the US who open remote work but you are in Thailand like example. sorry if this is too absurd

[mint ember]

Hey, which course do you recommend for learning python, I don’t want to do a full boot camp but I need to know which direction to go

[summer roost]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[tardy pine]

Hi Godly Geek, thanks for your response. I'm honestly just looking to see if anyone has any opinions on what skills are really in demand for engineers who want to work at a tech company. I've built customer facing apps with Java/Angular and also data related python applications and I'm AWS SAA. My current role has me becoming less of a coder and more of a BA and I want to know what I can study in my off time to get myself out of this and into a SWE role where I'm strictly building software or doing devops

[summer roost]

If you're interested more in frontend development, starting to learn react or possibly node.js might be helpful. If you're interested in backend, learning C or Rust or C# might be helpful (of those, C# is closest to a language you already know)

And within Python there's always demand for libs like numpy, pandas, asyncio, asyncpg, etc

And Cython, if you're looking to branch out a bit

Backend architecture wise, learning different types of message queues or databases or pub/sub systems is always helpful

[tardy pine]

Thank you for your thoughts godlygeek!!

[tardy pine]

Do you think there is any value in AWS/GCP certs beyond the associate level ones. If I want to work for a tech giant, is there value in getting specialty AWS/GCP certs?

[summer roost]

I've never worked with any cloud stuff, so I couldn't really say. My general impression of certs is that they're not generally worth much, with some rare exceptions

[astral iris]

Hello,

I want to start my career in Python. I have learned Python and machine learning. Can I have any suggestions to grow my future in this and get a good job?

[abstract kelp]

Good nights! I recently started learning python, after going deeper, where should I go? where to learn after python? would like to work with this technology

[abstract kelp]

I'm the same as you! Wondering a career guide!

[wind glen]

It all depends on the area where you are interested. If you are interested in web development: you can work on creating websites using Djago/Flask. If you are interested in data, you can move to Data Engineering or Data Science fields.

[abstract kelp]

@wind glen thanks

[placid halo]

nice

[true harness]

check out #❓｜how-to-get-help , this isn't the right channel

@stable perch also, please don't post your question in multiple channels

[supple warren]

Umm

[hearty island]

what the hell is going on

[true harness]

can we not

<@&267629731250176001>

[steep ibex]

Uh

wtf

[hearty island]

ignore it

[blazing dew]

!pban 298886472642330625 NSFW posts

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied purge ban to @novel sonnet permanently.

[hearty island]

some of these job postings I swear

[blazing dew]

!ban 334755398584369174 Shitposting

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @vagrant elk permanently.

[hearty island]

cyber security and data science???

those are gigantic fields

[vapid jay]

Nice.

[hearty island]

this makes me feel like it was written by HR

[vapid jay]

That seems like overqualified work

[hearty island]

it takes quite a bit of time to learn a field entirely

[hearty island]

right? why not pursue a job if you know that much?

it's like companies have forgotten that internships are there for students to learn

[vapid jay]

Yeah

Actually, wouldn't that type of skillset literally land you a job anywhere?

[lucid vapor]

It would.

It's unreasonable.

Anybody could get a part-time job with that kind of qualification.

[vapid jay]

Gotta love those who asks for overqualified work

That reminds me when a part-time job as a cashier required a college degree

[hearty island]

I am so tired of it

[vapid jay]

Like I was barely a fresh on HS

[hearty island]

I searched up software intern and literally nothing popped up

[vapid jay]

and these mf straight up asked for a degree

But in the end, that's the new market trend

[hearty island]

these companies just expect too much

is there a better site I can use for internships?

[vapid jay]

Nobody wants to hire recruits/works fresh out of the education system

[hearty island]

I feel like I've seen them all

[hearty island]

then what the hell are you supposed to do

internships are acting like they're full time jobs now

[vapid jay]

I have no idea

I'm still trying to figure it out

lol

[hearty island]

it's ridic

[lucid vapor]

It definitely seems like it.

Next they're going to give an internship that's 40 hours a week.

[hearty island]

I bet I can show you like 20 more examples

[hearty island]

oh boy that's what I saw too

[vapid jay]

I honestly find it funny when the full-time jobs ask for literally 5 years plus on the field

[hearty island]

there was an internship saying that the intern should expect to dedicate 40 hours a week

[lucid vapor]

What kind of internship is that?

[hearty island]

50 years ago a starter job basically required nothing

[lucid vapor]

If you have that kind of time, go get a job.

[vapid jay]

but the internships are literally even worse than the full time job requirements

It's like the market is set up to specially fuck you in the ass and say "lmao, what are you going to do about it?"

[hearty island]

I can't find it anymore but it definitely said 40 hours a week

jesus dude

C, C++, AND PYTHON???

[vapid jay]

What the fuck

[hearty island]

it sounds like a mix of project management/ data science

[lucid vapor]

If you need that kind of person, hire them.

[hearty island]

bc you're "communicating across the boundaries of the company"

[lucid vapor]

Don't put an internship that doesn't make sense.

[hearty island]

Experience in at least two of the following areas: object detection, semantic segmentation, 3D reconstruction, 3D scene understanding, image registration, and image processing
Experience in open-source libraries such as TensorFlow, Keras, PyTorch, scikit-learn, and OpenCV
Sound fundamentals in mathematics, statistics, optimization, computer vision, and their applications in the perception of 3D scenes for mobile robots
Proficient in C/C++ and Python

jesus

do they realize how complicated these subjects are

computer vision alone takes a long time

[lucid vapor]

It seems like that was written by non programmers.

[hearty island]

Experience at a fast-growing startup

OH BOY

500 applicants

and it doesn't even include pay information

🙂

[lucid vapor]

Smh

[hearty island]

"M.S. in computer science, electrical, mechanical, robotics, or other related engineering disciplines"

[lucid vapor]

I wouldn't do an unpaid internship.

[hearty island]

I would never

[lucid vapor]

Unless I actually liked the topic a lot.

[hearty island]

why the hell would someone who has a MS in CS decide to do an internship

that's a waste of your time

[vapid jay]

Bruh

[lucid vapor]

Eh, if it's interesting it'd be okay. But it depends on where. And what.

If it's at a well known company that's good in that stuff, then I would take it.

[hearty island]

this looks good

but it's product management

nothing wrong with it

it just feels like a waste of time if I'm going to spend so much time studying DS/algos

what is it with these companies not showing me pay information

it's annoying

[lucid vapor]

You should always do an internship about what you like.

And what you will do in the future.

[hearty island]

yeah

[main thicket]

It's just "preferable". Any exposure would be appreciated, it's not a requirement

[main thicket]

Thats really not unreasonable lol

[hearty island]

well I don't have either of those fields yet

[hearty island]

I barely know python

[lucid vapor]

It's still a lot.

It depends on what level of skill in those langs.

If it's just exposure, then sure, why not.

[main thicket]

Well, that position isn't meant for you, it's meant for peopel like me, people with a masters, strong understandings in maths and theory heavy fields, with computational science exposure in C/C++ and Python

[hearty island]

it's an "Intern" position

"Intern"

[main thicket]

Yes, masters people do internships

People with strong theory knowledge do internships

Not every internship has to be made accessible to the lowest common denominator

[hearty island]

I'm not saying it does

the amount of internships for undergraduate students seems to be dwindling

[main thicket]

An undergrad could also reasonably do that internship, I fit basically all of that in my 3rd year

[hearty island]

ok Raggy

[main thicket]

There's a lot of internships for people who are into webdev, mobile dev etc. that I wouldn't fit. There's also a lot of internships like this, which I would fit but webdev/etc people wouldnt ¯_(ツ)_/¯

It goes both ways, it's not really unreasonable requirements. I have half a dozen friends that could fit this

[crimson raptor]

aren't internships a form for u to understand how the world functions, with the responsibility of a certain job? If so, that would mean that it is for all that have the minimum capacity to do so...

[hearty island]

congrats you have an opinion

[little trellis]

You wouldn't do that for free though I assume @main thicket haha

[main thicket]

Oh yeah, it's not free I assume?

[lucid vapor]

They didn't show the pay.

[hearty island]

it's just auto apply

[little trellis]

Easy 6 figures starting for those skills

[main thicket]

No idea why the snark. I do know half a dozen people that do fit those skills. Anyone doing computer vision stuff in undergrad has touched opencv and deep learning frameworks, and opencv is most natural to use in C++ so a lot of people are proficient in that too

Especially if you're one of the ME/EE/Robotics, etc majors

That they specifically ask for

[hearty island]

I can show you another 50 undergrads who don't have those skills

[main thicket]

And? They have no desire to cater to those undergrads. They want people into computer vision and image processing

[little trellis]

IMO a lot of jobs just put up a wish list but are happy to take someone with a good portion of the skills. The job I have now wanted a masters and like 5 years of data engineering which I do not have either.

[crimson raptor]

yeah 'cause nothing is for all, u have to have a minimum knowledge right?

[hearty island]

most undergrads do not have those skills

not the ones I know

[summer roost]

They don't want undergrads at all

[main thicket]

Yes, they don't have to cater to the majority of undergrads at all.

[little trellis]

I'm sure if you knew your way around computer vision well enough and had some exposure to those libraries. As long as you fit the culture they would probably accept you.

[main thicket]

I dont know why you're having trouble understanding that internships don't* have to be accessible to everyone

Many many people specialise in undergrad

Whether it's robotics, computer vision, machine learning, webdev, embedded, whatever

[severe narwhal]

hello

[main thicket]

Most people don't have skills in any of those except maybe one

[crimson raptor]

ooh

[crimson raptor]

and that one is the chosen one to enter the program

it's called natural selection

[main thicket]

Most CS majors don't know anything about embedded or about machine learning. Doesn't mean every company stops offering internships specific to embedded just because the average undergrad doesnt have those skills

[hearty island]

great

what's an average undergrad supposed to do then?

work at Walmart?

[summer roost]

Apply for other, less specialized internships

[main thicket]

Go to literally any one of the hundreds and thousands of companies that do internships in general software engineering things

[hearty island]

where

[summer roost]

For the record, I met most of those qualifications as an undergrad. They're not absurd. I would have met every aspect but the computer vision aspect. I'm sure there were people like me who also knew some computer vision

[main thicket]

Anywhere lol. Most software internships just want you to be good at the language they use, and have some experience with the framework or field of frameworks

[crimson raptor]

or study

[hearty island]

idk when I put software intern nothing popped up

[little trellis]

Job boards are a rough game to play

[summer roost]

Put where?

[main thicket]

Your linkedin search preferences might be screwed or something, because there's absolute hundreds

[little trellis]

If you have an internal job board or recruiting resources that might be better than the public stuff

[zenith haven]

do programmers getting their first job in programming usually need prior work experience?

[main thicket]

It's ideal to do an internship

Harder without an internship, but still doable

[little trellis]

Pretty much any entry level job in any field these days will want an internship.

[zenith haven]

for an intership would they care if you worked for a grocery store or something before?

[little trellis]

Some job is probably better than no job.

[main thicket]

If you have no other experience, put your grocery experience + any projects you did

@hearty island I just looked up "Software Engineering Intern" in the US and this is the first thing that popped up

These requirements are very normal for CS majors doing software work

[hearty island]

ok

[little trellis]

That job seems pretty approachable. Just asking for some familiarity and basic experience in some fairly broad areas.

[sudden quartz]

Most?

[main thicket]

Yes?

If they did, I wouldn't have to be helping CS majors with all those things constantly lol

[summer roost]

I knew neither of those as an undergrad. I knew C pretty well, but had never done embedded.

[zenith haven]

whats a good way to find programming interships?

[little trellis]

By the definition of specialization they wouldn't.

[main thicket]

Look up "Software Development Intern" or "Software Engineering Intern" on linkedin, indeed or other job site

[sudden quartz]

Machine Learning may not be in your standard requirements I guess

but everyone takes it

same with Ai

o wait

[main thicket]

ML is pretty much never in standard requirements and a lot of people don't take it

[summer roost]

It wasn't even offered when I was in college. But if it had been, I would not have taken it

[sudden quartz]

Why?

[summer roost]

I don't find it interesting in the least.

[sudden quartz]

I like AI and Deep Learning and computer vision more

[main thicket]

Okay, good on you! Most people don't bother

[summer roost]

I mean, that's fine. Like what you like.

I was into security and operating systems

[sudden quartz]

I took those too

[main thicket]

I was into ML for like an year until I realised it's just a bunch of people pretending they know what's going on with their models when half their work is tuning hyperparameters and throwing shit at the wall till it sticks

[sudden quartz]

what are those

[main thicket]

My research team at work is the Cyberphysical Systems team!

It's more than just IoT

[summer roost]

ML is a buzzword more than a useful tool. It's useful in some niche places, but it's nowhere near as broadly applicable at many people wish it was.

[main thicket]

It's basically a buzzword for anything that bridges between the digital world and physical world. Robotics, digital twins, cybernetics, IoT, whatnot

Very interdisciplinary

We're very broad. Anything from fruit picking robots to brain machine interfaces to industrial iot

[zenith haven]

for front end web dev does it matter if you know angular but the jobs needs vue or react?

[little trellis]

Sounds pretty fun @main thicket

[sudden quartz]

neural networks

[main thicket]

It is! It's good for someone interdisciplinary like me, can switch between mechanical hardware design, electronics and software

[sudden quartz]

Well yes and no. Obviously youd need to learn the technologies used but many would hire you still

[main thicket]

Plus whatever theory goes in between

[zenith haven]

would they immediately put you on learning react if theyre using react

[sudden quartz]

and you only have a BS

[little trellis]

For sure, sounds like it would be rewarding as well to see the physical manifestations of your work.

[sudden quartz]

I was thinking of getting MSCE

I am BSCS

[little trellis]

A lot of developers take a deep dive into an area that they're interested in and self-teach after undergrad.

[sudden quartz]

Like writing

if you write code why not write novels

[main thicket]

Because novels aren't code 🤔

[main thicket]

Well, I'm more of an engineer rather than a developer so most of the stuff I do is already physically manifested :p

[sudden quartz]

Engineer a novel

Would that be Idea Engineering

[little trellis]

Haha fair enough @main thicket

[sudden quartz]

Im more of a software engineer than a computer engineer but im still getting that MSCE

[little trellis]

Seems like you're fairly experienced @main thicket. Any general career advice? I'm about 3 years into my career as a data engineer.

[sudden quartz]

I can answer career questions too, you are a data engineer but what is your purpose and what did you study

[main thicket]

Idk about experienced. I'm a master's student working in a national research lab. No real general advice to give unless you have more specific questions

[main thicket]

Why do you keep trying to hijack the conversation lol

[little trellis]

My purpose is to engineer data haha

[sudden quartz]

hmm

If you are doing what you love just keep doing it. Jump around in companies too

Be senior data engineer

[little trellis]

Have you found the research route satisfying @main thicket?

[main thicket]

I think academia is a weird pyramid scheme but national labs and industrial research centres are really cool

I do way cooler work than basically all the people in industry other than those industry research groups. I get to tackle theory, do a variety of stuff, be surrounded by very smart people

So I'm happy with it

[sudden quartz]

Why is it a pyramid scheme and how did you get the position? Super stellar undergrad? I would like to do research with a national lab like Cern as a MS student. I prefer research

[main thicket]

Aren't you an American? With no background in physics? Also CERN isn't national, it's an international collaboration

[little trellis]

Very interesting to know. I've considered the master's route but I've been having a good deal of success in the industry and have found that I learn better on my own rather than in a program. It does sound like it could open up some interesting doors though.

[sudden quartz]

Yes I am a United States of American and and my background is computer science with a Math minor

[main thicket]

I think as a software developer you get very little out of it

But if you're into theory stuff, or hardware stuff, there's a lot of cool work

[crimson raptor]

most people become master bc of the title

[sudden quartz]

Actually there is also the prospects if reseach if you get a grad degree

Thats my purpose

[near ocean]

Theres no title attached to a masters degree

[little trellis]

The main thing I think it could be useful for is switching industries.

[crimson raptor]

the name master

[sudden quartz]

there is, prestige, leadership in company and higher pay

[crimson raptor]

u are recognized for beeing a master on that subjext

[main thicket]

Master is not a title and nobody thinks you're a "master" on that subject

[near ocean]

Lmao masters dont even go that deep into the subject matter

[main thicket]

Just like how bachelor's doesn't imply you aren't married

[crimson raptor]

therefor, he is "more valuable" then the one with minor degreee

[near ocean]

Unless youre at a top uni masters degrees are a joke imho

[little trellis]

Masters is just supposed to be where you dive deeper into a subject and begin to learn how to do research.

[crimson raptor]

but it is a symbol of recognition

[near ocean]

Maybe 100 years ago

[crimson raptor]

it stil depends where u studied and all

[main thicket]

What's your background lol

[lucid vapor]

It's better that you can show you have the skills.

[near ocean]

MAs and MScs are a dime a dozen nowadays

[lucid vapor]

If you're a web dev, have a nice portfolio and projects, and no one will care if you don't have a masters.

[crimson raptor]

I khow people that are masters in multiple areas and all have social advantages when it comes to recognition and job finding

[lucid vapor]

Same goes for back end, but in back end stuff.

[crimson raptor]

exactly

[sudden quartz]

for research and higher level positions they want a ms

[main thicket]

It really doesn't, it highly depends on the field. Nobody in webdev cares about a master's

[little trellis]

To be honest, as a competent software engineer you'll get more recruiters messaging you than you know what to do with. You have to have more of a reason than that to go for a masters.

[crimson raptor]

but if ur competing 4 a spot, against a master w/ same clean background

[sudden quartz]

the ms will win

[crimson raptor]

he has bigger chances to win

[sudden quartz]

get em architect

[near ocean]

If someone else has an msc and you dont then you dont exactly have the same background

[main thicket]

You do in webdev lol

[sudden quartz]

lool

[near ocean]

But its not like an msc makes that much of a difference, its just 2 years

1 in the uk lmao

[crimson raptor]

I mean abt clean backgrounds

[little trellis]

It makes a difference in the types of companies that are looking for the skill-set developed in a masters program such as conducting research for them.

[near ocean]

Webdev bad and since you brought it up, i just encountered this form

[true harness]

lmfao

[near ocean]

Obviously qualifications dont mean shit for webdevs

[crimson raptor]

depends

what position is it going 4?

[sudden quartz]

web dev research

[true harness]

what kind of research do you do for web dev

[near ocean]

how to required input html form

[crimson raptor]

yeah but ur ganna be that small one

[main thicket]

HCI usually

[lucid vapor]

Webdev isn't bad. And even I can make a form better than that.

[crimson raptor]

idk

[little trellis]

Are you saying that someone couldn't be conducting research in the web development field?

[near ocean]

how 2 seo for dummies, something like that

[true harness]

i want to know know what research there is to be done

[little trellis]

I see. HCI as Raggy mentioned seems like an interesting area.

[summer roost]

For SWEs, a masters can be a negative signal, instead of positive, from what I've seen. Especially early in their career - instead of an MS looking like "this person must really know computer science", it can look like "this person couldn't get a job after getting their BS, and so they went for an MS"

[sudden quartz]

pfft

who would think that

[true harness]

ic, thanks

[summer roost]

well - the thing is, CS isn't very useful for a job as an SWE. Most software developers need very little computer science.

[leaden jasper]

Oh yeah, the 1 - 2 years gap experience then going for a Master's for research that isn't too well defined and they're not passionate about. That's very uh... yeah.

[crimson raptor]

hm.. makes sense, but people on road to master are also working at jobs right

[sudden quartz]

if youre good enough for a MSCS program and that program isnt focused in SWE, why even go into SWE?!

[summer roost]

sometimes yes, sometimes no - they may be doing research at a research lab under a professor, for instance, which isn't really "working at a job" in the normal sense.

[leaden jasper]

Depends. Some get their master's while working (i.e. me) and others will go full-time or take 1-2 years off of work just to focus on it. The second option is usually when I see someone trying to do a full career pivot

[crimson raptor]

true, but u get what i mean right?

[little trellis]

A lot of companies will pay for part or all of the program which can change the equation.

[sudden quartz]

yeah

[crimson raptor]

true

[nocturne dagger]

what is python and why am i here

[summer roost]

definitely.

[leaden jasper]

Also grad school is such a scam honestly. The only reason I'm doing it at this point is because my work is paying for it and it gives me slightly more legitimacy in the work I want to do since it's more aligned than my Bachelor's. But also, my experience is in engineering, not comp sci.

[crimson raptor]

a laguage for coding, it's diferent to others. I wanted to tell u more but i'm still learning it

[summer roost]

I think that's a good reason to do it. I'm much less skeptical of a CS MS after a non-CS BS

[crimson raptor]

but it is fun

[little trellis]

You have to weigh the experience you will get in the field during that time against the experience you will get in grad school.

[nocturne dagger]

ok

[sudden quartz]

yeah

but seriously if you go to grad school for a general mscs as a bscs... why do SWE

its beneath you

[leaden jasper]

@crimson raptor Curious, reading the convo above. What's your experience with Master's programs and hiring with respect to a master's?

[leaden jasper]

What type of job are you envisioning instead with a MS of comp sci?

[sudden quartz]

Jobs that general require MS, like research positions which generally involve AI or DS

[crimson raptor]

it's not exactly related to masters in CS, but more abt a market point of view

[summer roost]

well, that's exactly why I'm skeptical. It should be beneath you, in the sense that an MS CS doesn't qualify you for most software jobs any better than a BS CS does. It's reasonable to wonder why they pursued it.

[little trellis]

I'm also not sure why SWE would be considered beneath anyone.

[leaden jasper]

Hmmmm, I wouldn't really sure I would consider SWE beneath things like research positions. They're just fundamentally very different jobs.

[leaden jasper]

Yeah, I'm asking about your experience in general with master's, not necessarily with master's of comp sci

[sudden quartz]

I mean like entry level SWE jobs.. Obviously not the career itself

[little trellis]

Everyone has to do entry level at some point.

[sudden quartz]

well

relatively

[summer roost]

right, "beneath" was the wrong way to put it. What I meant to say was, it's worth questioning why someone spent an extra 2 years learning more computer science, and then applied for a job that doesn't require more computer science.

[sudden quartz]

they wanted to buff their credentials ignorantly

[leaden jasper]

Very valid. If you're getting a Master's you should have a solid reason for doing it besides "well why not" and because of the title/extra degree

[summer roost]

"the company would pay for it" is a perfectly good reason, I think.

[leaden jasper]

As someone currently doing the "my company is paying for it" I must say, I whole-heartedly agree

[summer roost]

But if I'm screening resumes for junior developers, and I have a choice between a BS CS who has had an internship in industry, and an MS CS that has only ever worked for the university, I'll lean more towards the BS CS than the MS CS, all things being equal. They're more likely to have the relevant skills, because they've learned some things at an industry job already, and the extra things that the MS CS learned are likely not relevant to what I'm hiring them for.

[crimson raptor]

I know for a fact that people have a advantage in the competition when they demonstrate that they know what they are doing... therefor, the name and rank master would prove to people that u know about ur sht. But as @summer roost said, lately it has been seen by many as a form to pass time bc u dont have job. (know that that isn't always the reality)

[main thicket]

People who want to do SWE do SWE as a job, not do a master's in it

[sudden quartz]

Yeah

its not a researh position

[little trellis]

That makes sense.

[leaden jasper]

So I feel like you're placing far more value on the "rank of master" than actually happens in reality. No one actually cares that you have a "rank of master" and it doesn't necessarily prove you know your stuff either.

[main thicket]

Why would you get a computer engineering master's (assuming you mean CE stuff like firmware, digital hardware, comparch etc) for a DS position???

Literally no one uses the word Master lmao

[leaden jasper]

(I must re-iterate my point again, that in terms of grades and classes, grad school is a scaaaaam)

[near ocean]

I wish they did :^(

[main thicket]

Highly suspect it's like a high school or freshman student guessing at what its like like based on the way it's phrased

[little trellis]

Would you rather hire someone for a SWE position who spent 2 years getting a masters or 2 years working as a reputable company? I assume most people would pick the later for this specific position.

[main thicket]

For software yes. Not everyone's doing software

Undergrad doesn't teach you much theory wise

[summer roost]

my friends with doctorates are pretty loose on even being called "doctor". They're fine with Mr. or Mrs. until someone tries talking down to them, then it's "that's Doctor So-and-so!", heh

[leaden jasper]

I'm getting my master's in MechE. It's just ... frustrating then someone getting a 60 just gets curved up to like... an A-. Some of the classes are great content wise but the grading is uh.... suspect.

[leaden jasper]

someone of my coworkers hate being called Dr. Like if they do that they start glaring at me

[main thicket]

Because gradings in grad school don't matter so they're highly inflated

[tender thicket]

If it's in the masters field, the masters, if it's not, the 2 years experience

[main thicket]

If it's in the master's field and it's a theory type job*

[leaden jasper]

Yeah I know. That's the part that I roughly equate to being a scam. The grades don't matter. Just what you do with your research and any relevant projects you can pull out of it.

[little trellis]

I'm specifically talking about SWE nothing related to research or theory. Obviously if you want that then you're hiring someone with a masters in that area.

[main thicket]

Wouldnt call that a scam... It just means that grades are there out of necessity of the academic system, not meant to be an actual reflection

[summer roost]

a masters in computer science, in particular, is just a deeper focus on the math and theory background of computing. Which have little relevance to most industry jobs.

[leaden jasper]

So in my opinion the grades should still matter. Because I see people basically flunking fundamental classes but they get curved so they pass. They still lack the fundamental knowledge that I would consider any person with a master's in that field to have. Depending on their research lab they can sometimes skate by without the proper knowledge.

[summer roost]

It does seem sort of odd that masters programs don't just make every course pass/fail.

[main thicket]

I think in theory a lot of master's programs are meant to kick you out below certain grade and then profs overinflate because grad grades don't matter to them, they just want to see you do good research

[leaden jasper]

Yeah, it's just a bit frustrating to me that I can end up working with people who just... don't have the knowledge they should.

[near ocean]

They arent pass fail? They kinda are in the uk

Theres 3 grades you could have,
Distinction, Merit, Pass

And the fail

[leaden jasper]

Like the one class I took, the professor wasn't tenured at the time and legit said "So everyone gets an A or a B. Unless you cheat, then you get a C" because when he tried to fail someone for blatant cheating the dept head wouldn't let him and made him give him a C.

#GradSchool

[summer roost]

this is a perennial complaint of mine, FWIW. I wish it weren't assumed that a CS major is the best way to get a software developer job. Software Engineering programs do a better job of teaching skills that are relevant to industry jobs, from what I've seen, but relatively few schools offer them.

[true harness]

i have no experience in...anything, but i think a lot of people equate cs to be swe

[main thicket]

Go to other countries. Countries like Canada and Australia have SWE programs everywhere

[summer roost]

sure - my POV is US-centric - and likely all of my complaints are 🙂

[leaden jasper]

I do love my graduate school classes in terms of content though. If you can get work to pay for it and you are genuinely interested in the subject, def recommend. Or just grabbing the textbooks from the syllabus and reading cover to cover.

[summer roost]

they definitely do. And not for no reason - companies are willing to hire CS grads, and at most schools CS is the best degree they offer if you're trying to get an SWE job. But... it's not actually very close.

[main thicket]

Oh yeah, grad level content is an order of magnitude more interesting than undergrad content

[summer roost]

I can count the number of times I've needed to know the pumping lemma for an industry job on zero hands.