gotcha.
#career-advice
crude crown
wow, a boss saying that... it makes me wonder how in the hell one reaches that position with such a lack of social finesse
I'll assume that situation is not true, although there's a situation in my previous team in my current job where an intern no doubt performs better that someone who's in a higher paygrade.
harsh patio
Yeah I honestly don’t know. The thing is I excelled at the software engineering portion of my job. I admittedly am weaker on the Ml side but I was given 0 guidance, and was on a project for only a couple months before they basically admitted me a failure
crude crown
Well, I'm currently an ML engineer as well so I might be able to give a bit more guidance on this situation.
harsh patio
They might change my job responsibility and take me off ML. If they do that I’m gone. Hands down
crude crown
do you have any seniors in your team or something like that?
harsh patio
No. Just a senior data scientist. She is NOT an Ml expert
crude crown
I see...
harsh patio
We had a machine learning expert added late and he’s found some stuff out for us but we still don’t have any models because the problem honestly seems fundamentally flawed
crude crown
is that the co-worker who has a superiority complex?
harsh patio
Yes
crude crown
yeah... this is more difficult than I thought.
harsh patio
He knows he’s our resident expert. So he kind of looks down at us
crude crown
sorry, the problematic co-worker is this "expert" and not the senior DS right?
crude crown
ah got it.
from your description and considering you don't have a formal engineering manager or tech lead, I'm assuming you're in a small company
well, if the problem seems fundamentally flawed... the senior data scientist should be discussing with a product manager (or the equivalent role over there) about that and re-think it.
harsh patio
They act small. But they have offices across the entire world. I’m in the Eastern US. They’re in western. We have offices in India, China, Spain, I think South America
crude crown
uh, interesting.
if that flawed problem formulation was the "bottleneck" for your ML part of your job, it doesn't seem your fault IMO. The onus of responsibility should be falling on the senior DS.
harsh patio
Honestly she failed me. She tried to act like I failed in our 1:1 but she was dictating everything I was doing and trying. At no point, as the expert on our team, did it occur to her that the data we were acquiring wouldn’t generalize well
Which is what sent our project off the rails
And she fucked up by refusing to acknowledge it and push positive results. She honestly was basically lying in our engineering meetings
Hand picking positive results to look good and ignoring any indication of potential failure
crude crown
that's part and parcel of DS work nowadays.
however... it seems that in your case it crossed the line.
You seem a bit defensive overall, although I most certainly can relate to your situation.
is there anyone else above her in the team or your department that you might talk to?
harsh patio
she was selling sunshines and rainbows to our executives and it wasn't really. We had moments we thought thats what we had but she sold it to them instead of waiting to see how it went
Not really
I know i'm not a good ML engineer. This is my first swing at it. But i feel like I was failed in this as well. I was guided by someone with no expertise in this, who refused to believe this project was leading downhill. Then shifts the blame on me a little, potentially leading to my responsibilities to change past what i accepted the job offer for
It was a worthy experiment but she should of realized when it was headed that way. I tried once or twice to point out the writing on the wall but she refused. So now here we are.
crude crown
Yeah, the situation doesn't look very good and it seems you weren't setup for success.
harsh patio
I was the primary one working on the experiment, so she was just dictating a path for me based off what she learned in the last project. She assumed this one would end as easily as the last but that certainly isn't the case
crude crown
that's the problem in ML projects, it's very easy to sell super awesome stuff and to delay showing results... until your reach a certain deadline and you don't have anything substantial (which is natural due to the more stochastic nature of the field, but middle management and above thinks that things are as deterministic compared to "regular" software development).
and why was she dictating? It should have been a bit more collaborative procedure and it could have been concurrent at some parts.
tardy coyote
I don't want to interject, but at the same time I want to ask about you guys' perspective on the responsibility of a MLE.
crude crown
Strong guidance on the process... yes that would be fair. Dictacting things? Nope.
harsh patio
i'm told what to do not just because of micromanaging, but because she is terrible at setting up goals. She will set arbitrary ones but they're never actively followed and she doesn't seem to update when a project derails
This team straight up is a cluster fuck lol
tardy coyote
Oof that sounds rough. lol
left socket
Do you have a eject button?
tardy coyote
Are DS supposed to project lead too?
crude crown
it sort of depends on the company. But the most well accepted definition is that a MLE is the guy that picks up a data scientist's Jupyter notebooks or what have you and ports them/ships them as products.
harsh patio
and the personalities on this team don't mix. at all. Nothing does. We have no true 'leader'. So its just all over the place
My boss is a DS senior who basically is a project lead/project manager
crude crown
products which are typically REST like web services, althought it's not only restricted to that.
crude crown
might have the technical skills but doesn't seem to have the... "teamwork" skills.
harsh patio
Yeah
tardy coyote
Ahh. If it's alright I would love to run my career steps by you guys to get some thoughts.
I've been programming in python for a while, and I was educated in DS. But I'm much bigger fan of engineering than anything.
Right now I'm practicing building full on pipelines with tests and modular designs. Along with implementing it into backend API.
I don't have any professional experience though and I'm looking for a job.
I have built full on pipelines but they feel messy and ad hoc.
crude crown
I'm frankly surprised she can be considered a senior DS without those.
harsh patio
Which makes sense because shes basically been solo for a while. Worked on and off with a couple people
I just know if they take ML from me in a week, I'm leaving in 6 months.
crude crown
well, she doesn't know how to adapt herself to context then
harsh patio
I probably am regardless, but changing my responsibilities against what i was told i was going to do makes me wanna leave earlier
crude crown
funnily enough, I'm also working solo in my team currently
harsh patio
also nine, that sounds like all good work
Working with APIs was the first thing I learned to do professionally
tardy coyote
Would it be possible to talk to her directly something along the lines of...
"Hey you're doing this makes me feel ineffective and honestly making me doing bad work. I think if you do it this way, it'll help me understand you better."
crude crown
I'm literally wearing several hats, as a data scientist, a backend dev, "tech lead" (i.e. collaborating a lot with the Product people and my manager and define the team's roadmap and prioritization)
harsh patio
I've tried once or twice. Its not entirely effective. Like today when I addressed the ML concerns and she responded by telling me an intern had more success than I did in 3 months. Like....thats fucked up
honestly im bad at the DS part of the job. Im pretty decent at the ML side I think
crude crown
still, one must adapt to situations when they work with other people or not.
tardy coyote
machadojpf, I'd be excited to do that! I would love to wear many hats.
I've applied to several startups recently.
crude crown
it's not that cool career-wise.
and the context switching is a bit annoying as well.
harsh patio
People want specialization
tardy coyote
Ahh.
harsh patio
Its probably cool to do but kinda meh professionally. Because of what companies expect
crude crown
and I'm in a really particular situation, this is expected to change soon but due to COVID I worked mostly solo in the past 6 months.
tardy coyote
Side note, your boss should take it easy on you. If anything help you grow with her expertise.
So I just finished an interview with a place today, and they said they'll get back to me.
If I somehow get into the position, how long should I usually stay if you guys say it's not that great career-wise?
harsh patio
I killed my first 3 months here I think. They liked the work I did as far as I know. It was a lot of software engineering which I have experience in. But the boss seems to have dropped a lot of support because of this project, which doesn't make sense
crude crown
@harsh patio what would you say is the DS part of your job and the ML part then? Usually people don't separate those.
tardy coyote
^ from my understanding, there's usually a pretty close stitch between the two as well.
harsh patio
The DS side is me analyzing the data and gaining some insights. The ML side would be properly leveraging those insights to be 'learnable'. Like, knowing which processes to use to get a solid ML model, and if not seeing what that is. Do I need to go back and analyze the data or is it part of my process in labeling, feature engineering, etc?
theres a lot i did this quarter. Learning curves. Feature Engineering. Looking at confusion matricies to evaluate performance. Generalizability of our model. Pulling ground truth
crude crown
ah I see.
that makes sense.
have you ever heard about type A and type B data scientists?
harsh patio
the DS side though I'm terrible at like...knowing how to view data to ensure I'm getting the right insights
No I haven't
crude crown
the first type of work you mentioned is mostly in the domain of a Type A data scientist and the latter is mostly in the domain of the Type B
harsh patio
wouldn't Type B just be Machine Learning work because its specific to creating functional models?
crude crown
Considering you were hired as an ML Engineer, you mostly definitely should be focused on type B
harsh patio
Technically my title isn't in ML Engineering. Only in job responsibility was that kind of work given
I'm a "Software Engineer/Data Scientist"
crude crown
Type A would actually be more in the domain of data analysts or data scientists embedded in non-engineering departments
Yes, type B would be mostly focused on that
harsh patio
the job was advertised with all the responsibilities that comprise a Machine Learning Engineer. I was hired to be that in everything except title
crude crown
the problem here is that it seems the company wants an unicorn
which is a common (but unfortunate) occurrence in many companies
autumn flower
@ ryuhphino were you hired by different people..? your work environment sounds odd to me? perhaps it's "boiler-room" environment. I thought that was just in sales
harsh patio
Thats the funny thing. Naw I hired by the person I've been working for. My boss has always been my boss
i interviewed with her and then a bunch of people on different teams but whom i occasionally work with.
crude crown
that's nothing out of ordinary.
autumn flower
oh? do you have the same experience @crude crown
harsh patio
I only say its funny because it would sounds like that wouldn't be the case
crude crown
yeah, for this current job the lead of my team (who's no longer at the company) interviewed me as well, which is more than expected in software companies.
tardy coyote
Wait, you were hired by the person you've been working for? And now this person is giving you grief?
crude crown
it does happen nine, my previous lead also gave me quite a bit of grief and was disrespectful at times in some situations
tardy coyote
Oh man, my apology goes out to you guys.
autumn flower
leads are usually pretty technical right ?
crude crown
might or might not be.
tardy coyote
hahaha thank you for that. I'll definitely take it as tales from tech.
harsh patio
yeah my last job the coworkers were all really amazing
crude crown
for sure they should reach a baseline technical level but at a certain point a lead is responsible for being the representative of the team and communicate with other teams, managers, product owners, etc, in order to guide the team.
harsh patio
I left my last job to pursue ML experience (which is why i took this job) as well as strong disagreements with how the company was run
the coworkers I had were great. My original hiring manager was fucking awesome. We are still friends. He also left for the same reason
we had some leadership changes and everything went south from there, unfortunately
crude crown
it's a bit ungrateful job to be a tech lead frankly but it is a stepping stone towards being an engineering manager eventually if that's a goal.
tardy coyote
Is a lead different than a principal insert_title_here?
crude crown
yes, it's different
autumn flower
@crude crown what do you mean?
crude crown
a principal is more like a... technical VP and has influence and impact all over the organization
not many companies have those because there's no justification business wise for them.
a lead is essentially a representative of a team.
autumn flower
🤔 i see
crude crown
a lead is more of a responsibility (not an actual job title) while principal X is a job title.
I'm talking about the typical organization in "modern" software companies (i.e. web development)
this might not translate at all for other industries.
autumn flower
ah right
tardy coyote
I have a particular question about backend. Mind if I ask it here?
crude crown
sure
tardy coyote
So I've built simple backend with things like get, post, update, delete methods.
And going from grabbing data as an input to prediction output.
I was wondering what is an experienced backend like?
crude crown
that seems like a typical REST web service
tardy coyote
Mhm. So I was wondering if someone was hiring for MLE or with SE experience, what would they look for?
Because places are asking me if I have experience with Flask and I say yes. But I don't want to mislead them and I don't know how much of Flask they're asking for.
crude crown
You should know enough for implementing a REST web service that might connect to a relational database, require authentication for some specific endpoints, to be able to handle a certain amount of requests per second, some possible caching if it makes sense, using an event driven architecture if an async approach might be desired, etc.
Having docs through Swagger would be a nice cherry on top as well (there's a Flask extension for it as well)
harsh patio
Side note: Every time I hear Swagger is a real thing in tech i roll my eyes. hard.
They could of called that anything
it didn't have to be Swagger
tardy coyote
hahaha
crude crown
but I'd say focus on the basics really. A REST web service with some authentication mechanism and that interacts with a relational DB would be a nice start.
tardy coyote
Thank you so much machadojpf, that really clarifies what I will be building into my next project.
I hope I'll be able to bug you some more later on.
crude crown
no prob.
harsh patio
also thank you as well @crude crown for letting me vent. I think the writing is on the wall regardless for this company. This is a horrible experience on a team that has no real guidance. The main unfortunate part is that i moved across the country for this job.
crude crown
I would say to stick to that job while you look for another one, although I do understand how challenging that might and will be.
crude crown
the job or the location you're in?
crude crown
aw man...
harsh patio
revoked meaning i owe the remainder of time not served
crude crown
for how long you're there now? 6 months is it?
harsh patio
yeah
crude crown
well, I would start looking for a job anyway. That's a process that takes a lot of time anyway
it might happen that you'll find a new one and give notice just in time for fulfilling that minimum stay at your company.
autumn flower
@crude crown I'm new with careers in this field. I'm interested in python and "data"..but thinking it'll be better to learn more basic web dev stuff/full stack stuff before getting to deep into back end & python? thoughts ?
harsh patio
I kind of wanna find a remote job if possible
crude crown
well, we're in a time that they're starting to pop up.
Consider yourself lucky that you're in the US and that 90% of the advertised remote jobs requires one to be located in the US
harsh patio
Yeah i've grown to love my office and the flexibility. I don't like the travel associated and think it takes a lot of time away
crude crown
that at least keeps away the competition of candidates from other countries.
(me included)
tardy coyote
You'll be in our heart.
crude crown
haha
but yeah, that's for sure one of the best things about remote working: no commute.
Especially over there in the US, where the commute times are unreal compared to European ones generally.
harsh patio
I just don't think lots of ML jobs exist for remote workers. I feel like i'll probably have to find a standard software engineering job
crude crown
ML jobs are scarce and everyone and their grandmother are applying to those. I'm on the same situation as you are.
harsh patio
the new big, huh
crude crown
here's a fun chart I saw today:
harsh patio
I just spent time getting a Masters in the domain and enjoy the idea of combining software engineering and the ML work I've learned
harsh patio
wow
fucking booming
but
not a lot of increase in activity for all the subscribers
comments and posts don't reflect an increasing in viewing/subscribing
crude crown
yeah, funnily enough... there's an inflection point on September 2017 which is when BTC started to really rally to 10k
(which then reached 20k in December)
not sure what's the relation in this but I find it a quite interesting coincidence
harsh patio
It is pretty interesting
crude crown
at the time there was some buzz around capsule networks
oh and Karpathy started talking about his thing about "software 2.0" and stuff.
wispy cape
aren't we at software 4.0 or something already ?
that's what the scrum ultimate ninja™️ (or something) said during the agile seminary i was held hostage in
crude crown
I think it should be industry 4.0
tardy coyote
I think what software 2.0 means instead of writing software how to do something, we tell them our goal. And the software will achieve it via some form of AI.
I guess imperative programming to the max?
crude crown
it's literally machine learning
tardy coyote
:^)
crude crown
which should be called data learning really.
or the old name for it as well... data mining
wispy cape
ehhhhhh, data mining is a separate thing than machine learning
wispy cape
ah yeah, that's right
inner wrenBOT
Hey @tardy coyote!
tardy coyote
Side question, I was wondering if you guys follow crisp-dm model?
https://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2808314343?profile=RESIZE_480x480
crude crown
haha, now that's a model that was left to "dust" along with the expression "data mining"
crude crown
the dm in CRISP-DM literally stands for Data Mining
and it's a bit outdated, especially considering that there's no monitoring and retraining feedback loop after the "Deployment" block.
not good at all if you're in domains subject to concept drifts.
tardy coyote
Oh I see.
crude crown
as for the standard industry workflow... honestly I don't know. I don't think there's none, there's several candidate workflows.
but a vast majority of DS teams are wrangled into working with ScrumTM and KanbanTM
tardy coyote
Is waterfall still being used?
tardy coyote
Hahahaha
crude crown
in the context of pure software projects... no one admits or claims that they work with waterfall
wispy cape
tbh agile is "commercialized common sense with too many meetings"
crude crown
and a lot of cargo cult and a cottage industry of BS certificates
tardy coyote
Question regarding the responsibility of a data engineer to a MLE.
From my understanding of data engineering, it's data acquisition and putting it in a format such that other people can work with it right?
At smaller companies, do MLE just do everything? From data engineering work to deployment of the model and the maintenance? In addition to maybe working with DS to develop the models.
crude crown
but there are some good points for sure... Like regular feedback on the work being done or some standups.
Data Engineering is essentially that yes but this really undersells the complexity of that type of work.
tardy coyote
Ahh, to my ignorance. More things to learn about the field!
crude crown
nah, it's a good summary of the work
I'm just saying that there's way more than that meets the eye in order to achieve that
tardy coyote
Ahh I see I see.
crude crown
as for your question with respect to smaller companies... you typically wear more hats yes.
tardy coyote
Oh something I wanted more information on.
Why do you guys say specialization is better career-wise?
crude crown
although my expectation would be that the roles of a data engineer or an ML engineer should be somewhat separate.
because that's what companies look for typically.
although there's an increasing trend of trying to making everyone "full-stack" and making them wear several hats at the same time... which is bad.
however, there's something to be said about specialization
which is that you can be too specialized, which is bad as well.
tardy coyote
Which makes you niche to jobs, right?
crude crown
yes, it would make you way too niche.
I think a Pi-model is a decent one to try to follow.
autumn flower
perhaps thats what cobal programmers were thinking of..to be niche 🙂
crude crown
well, COBOL is a good niche indeed.
in virtue of there having so many legacy systems relying on it
but yeah, a good niche for sure.
autumn flower
haha yeah
crude crown
there are others as well
it's a matter of searching
one thing is for sure though, ML is not a niche any longer
not by a long shot.
distant crow
waterfall is still being used in hardware projects, and in software companies at the strategy level. it's still a struggle to match up agile in the short timescales with strategic delivery. It's very difficult to apply Agile to long-term planning, it's not really suited for that
torn latch
Something from my LI that is probably accurate, except for the data cleaning needs to be much larger.
distant crow
yup. I'd expect data cleaning and gathering could be even bigger than that. but depends a lot of the company and the problem
harsh patio
I don’t mind most of those data scientist responsibilities honestly
turbid ridge
No one ever expected data scientist to do AI
We all know they spend their time on coffee breaks
hexed moon
gathering and cleaning should be higher then understanding the problem totally
strong glacier
right
balmy turtle
in-house app developer, is it a rare position? I v been doing Python and Pyside for my last job
searching for new jobs theyre all data science or web
polar monolith
What skills should i have if i wanted to start a career in python and Have jobs online?
south apex
@polar monolith It depends on what role you choose
polar monolith
@south apex ok let's see how about I pursue web programming?
craggy elm
@turbid ridge can confirm. i work with one, and all he does is either go out to smoke or grab a coffee at the starbucks 3 blocks down or both
keep in mind that we have a starbucks in house...
well, it's not an actual starbucks store, but we have everything and a guy who makes them for you
it's basically the same thing lol
jade walrus
Dannng my guy. Where can I apply?
I only need one ice coffee per day and don't smoke
jade walrus
Well I can see why the other guy started smoking now
craggy elm
nah, he's always been a real heavy smoker. it seems like most people coming from the middle east are heavy smokers - all of them are in our office - but i might be wrong about that
jade walrus
Dang what type of work do you guys do?
craggy elm
commercial HVAC plant optimization
it's a cool project idea, but the core of it is implemented like shit
and by "shit" i mean everything is heavily coupled & it's a monolithic architecture, so trying to change any bad assumptions that were made from the start - and there are a lot of them -is nigh impossible
grave tiger
@torn latch who ever thought DS was just ML-AI, someone really expected someone else to do all the data cleansing, gathering and feature engineering for them and just be like hey pass this into TS and get paid 120k a year
@craggy elm Coffee Breaks prob due to the large amount of free time while scraping data or training
craggy elm
maybe, but i know the guy, so i doubt it lol
grave tiger
I want a DS job, but eh I am gathering my own data for 3 projects with an estimation of 2 months each to just gather data, so I would be ready in what like 7 or 8 months
jade walrus
That guy should use his free time to add some unit tests for you so you can start untangling the spaghetti
grave tiger
Pre gathered data projects are just to simple
craggy elm
yeah, like if you're gathering measurements from actual sensors, it's good to know how to deal with real-world data
if a sensor goes bad, then you might get a constant high value or something. or maybe hysteresis is affecting a sensor, so error due to hysteresis might need to be accounted for
grave tiger
So your a software dev then working on the core program, what type of proects should I have for Githuib
I could whip up some nice projects in two weeks time, but I want some complex projects, 700 plus lines of code.
craggy elm
well, i work on the thing that the data science stuff uses
basically, a glorified calculator for HVAC systems to calculate the state of a bunch of equipment given a set of inputs
all of the actual data science stuff is above me
grave tiger
Yeah you work on getting them the classified data then, I imagine the data scientist is working on getting earlier warnings for failures then or something of the sort
What did your portfolio look like when you got your first job
craggy elm
but even said glorified calculator uses some linear & nonlinear, proprietary regression models of its own to predict some things about certain equipment
i was an intern who knew how to use matlab, c#, and some applied statistics lol
im pretty early in my career still. im transitioning to web dev though
grave tiger
you think web dev is better then soft dev
craggy elm
both are software development
web dev is just a subset of software dev
i want to do more backend stuff though
it's more fun to me
i had a few internships at some factories too & i made a lib in C to calculate the thermodynamic properties of water, but it only compiles on windows so far lol i need to go back and add the ability to compile on other platforms
distant crow
it's unclear to me what the bounds of "web dev" are. how far into the backend does it go? does it go as far as say kubernetes and service meshes?
after all, these things run in the cloud and sometimes serve as the infrastructure running web services...
or is "web dev" strictly frontend? or strictly frontend+the backend that serves it (which might have fuzzy boundaries due to the database and other internal APIs it might use)
shadow moss
Web dev is generally front end and back end
grave tiger
I would think its more backend
shadow moss
Cloud and infrastructure is more DevOps
grave tiger
Web Design is front end
shadow moss
Though same person may assist
distant crow
well, that was the case until modern web frameworks became common, and now a large chunk of business logic can be done on the front-end
craggy elm
well, if you're making an API or using django to make a frontend, i think it's development work
distant crow
therefore you now have front-end web devs who implement all the application logic and MVC stuff in the frontend
craggy elm
as far as using kubernetes or making docker containers and stuff, i think that's more on the lines of dev ops
im not any kind of authoritative figure on this though at all lol
distant crow
sure, I think I'm relatively well versed in that, I just don't know where "web dev" stops. I can see where it overlaps with devops, but there's this awkward territory between
craggy elm
yeah, there are definitely shades of grey along the edges
distant crow
for example, let's say you have a serverless stack, and an in-house maintained serverless infrastructure. Clearly devops, or really an internal platform team maintains that stack. But at some point your "web dev" needs to deploy to it, what happens when there's a dependency needed in the runtime?
I guess in this case, if you keep that separation, Web Dev has to make a feature request to Internal Platform to get it added. I suppose I answered my own question
craggy elm
lmao
distant crow
fair enough
craggy elm
there's definitely implementation differences that could cut in different areas, but generally, i think backend stuff can be classified as web dev stuff; however, there are definitely different scenarios where it's not
cloud turret
Web dev used to encompass devops as well but it branched out about 10-15 years ago, same as with frontend and backend which was done by the same person ~10 years ago. Nowadays in bigger companies even frontend is split into several distinct jobs.
white karma
I hope the market isn’t too tough for entry level backend, I expect it though
shadow moss
it's pretty rough right now
grave tiger
Do I need to show the code for my website or if I have a finished project can I just show the website
Reason being is that they are for commercial use
craggy elm
i personally just talk about my closed-source/work stuff. i usually talk about why there's a need for it or why i became interested in said project, ect. then i talk about what i did and my thought process along the way
white karma
@shadow moss Is it getting less rough or is it about the same as it was a few months back?
shadow moss
Slightly better but crash was so deep, it blew past Diamond layer, hit bed rock and got drowned in Lava
boreal radish
alr
to be hacker
just get free creds
that is good type of hacker
bad hacker is getting free monitors and pc
shadow moss
?
quaint aspen
he wants to be a hacker lol
white karma
Long as it’s not impossible I’ll keep going then
harsh patio
that moment your boss gets upset with you for not working after normal work hours
craggy elm
sucks for him lol
harsh patio
I'm just counting down 6 months
in like 4 months i'll start applying to new jobs
do any of you work remote 100%?
craggy elm
why not just start applying now?
harsh patio
bonus i got from accepting this job 6 months ago will be taken back if I tried to leave now
I end up oweing whatever time wasn't served in my first year
I've been looking into remote jobs, though the market seems smaller than I rememberi t being. I guess thats to be expected. Most places around me for sure are looking for seniors and upper experienced devs
I'm also considering studying my ass off to get a job at, like, Amazon
craggy elm
oh i gotcha
also, i work 100% remote, but i didn't do anything special really. i just applied to places in my area
harsh patio
Nice! My area is kind of small. Not a lot of companies or interesting stuff going on. The unfortunate part is i moved for this job
craggy elm
o, yeah i understand how that sucks now
stable solstice
Why does it seem like you need to know every programming languague in order to get a job in computer science
craggy elm
you don't lol
im only confident in c#, matlab, python, C, and sql lol
at the 1st place i got hired at, i was only confident in c# and matlab
crude crown
yup, for sure you don't.
turbid ridge
Yeah
more like
You need to have 10 years of experience in whatever specific thing they want
woven kernel
Mainly you need to be willing to work for cheap. If your rate is $5 per hour they won't care if you have less experience.
If you want a high hourly rate they will expect you to be an expert in many technologies.
crude crown
work for "cheap" at the beginning but don't just give away your time and knowledge.
woven kernel
Correct. But with outsourcing and remote work everyone's hourly rate is going down since there are people who will write code for $2 per hour or a full application for $50.
crude crown
maybe if you find those in upwork or fiverr. But you get what you pay.
all this to say, please don't go below the market rate. You don't only screw yourself, but everyone else.
woven kernel
I don't. But that's good advice for others. My rate is much higher than $5.
Unfortunately when there are millions of programmers they get desperate for work and start cutting their rates. Race to the bottom.
stable solstice
Yeah the world is way to overpopulated
A race to the bottom
What a funny way to describe it.
I want to create mobile apps. I believe the best languauge to learn will be C++ right?
How much C++ should I know before I can apply to jobs?
digital fjord
mobile apps are kotlin or dart
topaz tartan
what? mobile apps in C++ hmm never heard of it, NDK maybe, but kinda dead, there's Kotlin nowadays
topaz tartan
Kotlin is p similar to Java
turbid ridge
Just learn something dumb that no one else knows. Longer education -> better
stable solstice
= more money?
turbid ridge
ye
stable solstice
I want to get hired and practice more on the side
Cuz well
I want money now xD
but I will take that advice.
digital fjord
that article is wrong. Android API is pretty much entirely java and kotlin, and kotlin is preffered since java is still pretty dated
turbid ridge
Do android phones have a java VM running or what?
stable solstice
Idk
Btw
Look at this
Swift, 1 year (Required)
Mobile Web Application Languages, 1 year (Preferred)
Java, 1 year (Required)
CocoaPods, 1 year (Required)
Kotlin, 1 year (Required)
All this for an unpaid internship
.-.
turbid ridge
geez
turbid ridge
what are they thinking?
stable solstice
That idiots would be lining up at their door
hallow lynx
Only liars will line up for these internships
turbid ridge
If you're just after a job, then uni is probably your best bet?
hallow lynx
people who bullshit hr will get those jobs.
stable solstice
Damn right
And they deserve those liars
For being stupid
And vim vim
I am in computer science degree atm
But like
Idk if that'll be enough
I want to learn at least one or two languauges
Or at least be somewhat decent at them
So I can get hired
hallow lynx
That being said I don't have a job and just finished a cs degree, that being said I am on an interview tomorrow.
hallow lynx
A few, its more important you can make working applications and understanding how to code.
Than just knowing the syntax of several languages.
digital fjord
Writing a lot of code
stable solstice
And I don't know where to start
And I feel like im wasting time with anything im doing
Because it isn't this or that
Or this other thing
digital fjord
As long as you are writing code, you are doing the right thing
turbid ridge
bruh, I bet you're learning a ton of stuff in CS. as if you need more
digital fjord
Languages are easy to learn, programming is not
stable solstice
Languauges are easy to learn. Programming is not.
Interesting
And VimVim
Let me show you something
Hold on
turbid ridge
nah, he's making that up
🤣
sure
What about: Programming, easy to learn hard to master?
hallow lynx
Depends on the language
topaz tartan
HTML, ye
hallow lynx
Assembly languages are their own thing.
But generally I agree.
Just learn whatever you want a job in, in terms of what the tech is used for
digital fjord
Even assembly is learnable, it's just inconvenient and needs more knowledge. But the general thinking is the same
stable solstice
hallow lynx
i.e. for a data job learn python and SQL etc.
stable solstice
These are the classes in my major.
hallow lynx
I guess you are right.
turbid ridge
Huh? you got programming there?
stable solstice
I guess so!
digital fjord
Once you get the mindset, you can just pick up whatever at will. I have written a simple mandelbrot drawer in about 8 languages and it's not even all the languages I know enough to pull it off in
stable solstice
Geez.
hallow lynx
It still takes a day or two to learn the new syntax, and longer for specific frameworks and packages/modules though.
It'll make sense after you've made a few things.
digital fjord
Yeah, a week is a really short time though
turbid ridge
bruh, at some point languages start all feeling the same.
Knowing 10 languages is not the same as... idk, knowing 10 branches of mathematics
digital fjord
Yeah
stable solstice
So....
hallow lynx
Lol
stable solstice
Languauges in programming are like the same shit but different coats of paint?
digital fjord
Write code in whatever language you want
Do note that haskell and C are very different
hallow lynx
Yes @stable solstice Some are mor efficient than others and some are more convenient/more suited to certain tasks.
But generally the logic is the same.
stable solstice
Okay...
digital fjord
But even then, learning C after haskell is easier than starting with C (disregard the difficulty of learning haskel
stable solstice
On top of what I am learning in my classes (shown in the picture above) what else should I be doing to secure a job in the future.
I really want to be prepared.
digital fjord
Get projects done
hallow lynx
C and Java are almost the same language apart from OOP. Python is a simplified version of everything with basically no real OOP and lots of good data science packages/modules, C++ is basically also C. Swift is like a mix of Java and python in terms of simplicity but better for mobile dev in some circumstances. JS is a good multipurpose langauge that is used mainly for web dev etc etc etc.
turbid ridge
stable solstice
Got it.
hallow lynx
Talking from a syntax perspective.
stable solstice
So if I just stick to learning Python + SQL
I can get an alright job
My school uses Eclipse anyway
with Pycharm
hallow lynx
Maybe, data jobs are looking for people with MSc's these days. They want people who understand mathematics.
stable solstice
Damn.
hallow lynx
But honestly its more important that you know how to manipulate data and clean datasets etc.
stable solstice
Okay...
Ugh this is gonna be a pain the ass.
I definitely chose an... interesting degree.
hallow lynx
Welcome to CS.
bronze forum
HI
stable solstice
Major = "CS"
Major = input("How do you actually feel about this?: " #Inputting Hell
print("Welcome to " + Major)
what is the best ide for python
hallow lynx
No idea, I like using Anaconda though.
bronze forum
thanks
hallow lynx
I'm gonna ask a question now, Should I negotiate with my potential employee tomorrow, even though its my first dev job? The area I live in basically normally would have no eligible canditates for the job and they want someone who is prepared to do both Helpdesk and Dev work, I doubt they'll find someone in the area who is somewhat able to do both, willing to do both and also understands just how much responsibility the job is. Is it a good idea or do you think COVID might have produced some eligible candidates in my area due to layoffs?
dire shell
@hallow lynx Potential employee or employer? Care to elaborate more precisely on what your current situation is now?
hallow lynx
Employer, interview tomorrow, was a job through an agency. I wanted 1000 above the minimum salary range stated by the company but now want 3000 above the minimum range stated by the company (their original maximum salary). The agency for some reason disclosed my salary expectation and put me in a bad position for negotiation.
@dire shell
They also butchered my cv, ommited my github for one and also put the word 'systems' instead of technologies above the languages I list as knowing. I didn't know that python was a system for example.....
That being said I still will be getting an interview regardless of such.
dire shell
I see. Negotiate for a higher pay - I misread that as negotiate to do the Helpdesk job as well as the Dev job.
Without much more context I think it's always worth negotiating a higher pay. Obviously one can do that tactfully haha
hallow lynx
Nah I'm ready to dive into their dumpsterfire and learn the new languages/frameworks as well as TCP/IP basics etc.
Just want to be paid right for it.
dire shell
I hear ya!
ionic atlas
Welcome to Hell, Seikatsu. It isn't so bad once you've embraced Programming.
turbid ridge
embrace it or be destroyed by it
distant crow
bruh, at some point languages start all feeling the same.
Knowing 10 languages is not the same as... idk, knowing 10 branches of mathematics
this is true, eventually you stop noticing the language or syntax
dry sapphire
think the idioms can differ greatly
sacred gyro
Hello, I am trying to understand if going through a pseudo-degree is worth it (teachyourselfcs, Forrest Knight cirriculum, OSSU) what are your thoughts?
For a career in tech, and not simply learning for the sake of learning
dire shell
Hey @sacred gyro I'd say it depends on the areas in tech you want to work in, the length of time you're willing to go through this learning before you want to go out applying for roles, and getting a sense of what the tech community is like where you wish to work.
Generally speaking, a lot of tech work involves trying to model and represent something for the computer to do. From data structures and analytics, to front end work and UI/UX, to piecing together different tech stack, and more, of course. Regardless of where you start, learning programming will always involve problem solving, and you'll eventually apply it to all aspects of a tech job. Doing courses can be a good thing - provides a strong sense of direction towards learning the syntax and system.
I'd say as soon as you can, try applying what you've learned. If you're interested in algorithms and puzzle-like stuff, check out things like Advent of Code, Project Euler, or Rosetta Project say. If you're interested in web stuff, there is Flask and Django for a lot of backend stuff, and JavaScript libraries and frameworks to explore - say React and Vue. Data analytics - Pandas, Numpy, and if you're interested in Bioinformatics - Biopython.
sacred gyro
@dire shell Thanks for your input - I'm hearing from you that basically these cirriculums are not as practically as straight-up using libraries
Here's a link to one of them
It suggests links to math, data science, operating systems, etc.
computer architecture
none of what you said overlaps with this course
thanks 🙂
dire shell
I wouldn't go so far as to say they're not practical!! The topics you mentioned along with those in the course you referenced will give you an insight and exposure into the underlying systems, and they will serve well for you to be a good dev.
Perhaps what I was getting at is picking up languages, frameworks, libraries is a little bit like a top-first approach, whereas something like operating systems are like a bottom-first approach. Balancing the two is important.
Speaking from my own experience, something like Advent of Code is great because the problems are simple, and you can iteratively improve on a solution. You can start off with a naive approach, where it might not be performant, and then improve it so that it works more efficiently. This process of trying to improve it will get you to analyse how you're getting your program to solve it, and it may get you to investigate how the underlying system works.
sacred gyro
I'll keep that in mind- thanks @dire shell
harsh patio
I truly don't know how to handle working for a boss who is, for everything i can see, a workaholic
she will send emails throughout the night. She will send them within the first hour I wake up. I have to attend meetings past the boundary of time I set of when I stop working. Its like no matter what, nothing is off limits.
vivid dock
harsh patio
Don't think it does beyond the standard 'work 40 hours a week'
harsh patio
yeah, American. Dumb of me to assume everyone in here is
shadow moss
Not much legal recourse you have
Good push back would be to stop attending meetings and replying to emails outside working hours
You will need to figure out the politics of said action
harsh patio
I pretty much don't respond to those emails, even if she passive aggressively says something needs to be done ASAP (shes done this before) and i've spoke to her about my availability and hours. She said it was fine, but also tip toed around overtime by not saying its required but also politically saying its required. To which I said i'll do that....sometimes
because we get a bonus for how quarters go, so Its in my own financial best interest to occasionally put in extra time to see a project through. And so I'll put in extra time so that occurs. But honestly, thats pretty much where I stop, and i expressed it to her in a more political manner
shadow moss
ok
but legally, you don't have much recourse and she could get you fired for it, only thing is you would likely be eligible for unemployment
DO NOT TAKE THIS TO HR
harsh patio
Don't think i ever planned to
the only place i plan on taking it is to my exit interview when I have a new job lined up
if/when they ask me why i leave I can give them a name and 100 reasons why
shadow moss
nope.......
Exit interviews should be "It was a pleasure to work here. Peace out"
unless salary is way under market
then say "Salary offer from other company was much better"
harsh patio
hmmmmm i disagree. In fact, my last company basically invited me to do this
they were bleeding talent due to leadership changes. And HR was investigating why. My experiences on the way out strongly matched a senior tech lead's who left
so I let them know, it stayed confidental, as did his experience (i only knew they matched because we were kinda close), and we both left just fine
shadow moss
it's not confidential
harsh patio
i'm friends with my boss (who left for the same reason) and a coworker (also fixing to leave for the same reasons)
shadow moss
just take off
harsh patio
feel like thats an assumption, but okay
shadow moss
It's pointless
there is no way management doesn't know about this issue and they don't care
harsh patio
i 100% disagree with that statement
for example
im the only person under my boss
if shes a poor leader, they 100% dont know
shadow moss
really, how many employees have they lost under her?
harsh patio
under her or in general? Because i feel like that could have a different answer
under her? 0 because shes never had anyone under her
thats my point
shes fresh leadership and therefore im the first employee under her and the only one in this team
shadow moss
Whatever, you do you, I've been doing this for long time, Exit Interviews are pointless
my advice is never take counter offer, never do Exit Interviews, just go
harsh patio
it might be, but it wont hurt me one drop to inform them. They can do what they want with that info
didn't hurt me at my last job, won't hurt me at this one
i have plenty of references and shit im doing to maintain my own career
shadow moss
then you do you
harsh patio
Im also intelligent enough to read a room. My last job basically invited me to give feedback so HR could evaluate why they were bleeding talent. This job might not give a fuck. And if i'm not asked, i won't tell. But if they ask, idgaf i'll tell them. Its whatever, I guess
Name and reputation i don't feel like matter as much in this industry because its just so large. Unless you're just that incredibly bad or such a superstar, you're just another person who can do the job
shadow moss
you never know who moves elsewhere
and you may never know negative action has been taken against you, it could be as simple as "Hey Jane, ryunphino applied, you worked at same company? Yea, ryumphino is difficult to work with, I wouldn't hire them. SHRED"
all you get is form email with "Your application to job was not accepted for interviews. Good luck with your search"
harsh patio
If its my boss, I'd be glad if they rejected me lol. I was friends with most everyone i worked at last place. This company i don't get to 'mingle' as much, i guess? Might be covid and the lack of an office to mingle at
harsh patio
point being the positive networking i normally get doesn't exist with just how things are now. The only people who can say anything negative is my boss. I don't work with anyone else
shadow moss
I had a PITA from couple of jobs work at, apply when I worked at last company, HR Recruiter wondered over and was like "Hey Rabbit, what about Joe?" to which I replied "I wouldn't", HR marked him as NOPE and moved on
harsh patio
hell or positive. Only my boss at this company can speak to what I do
shadow moss
this person had no idea that interaction happened
harsh patio
Im not saying that doesn't happen. I'm certain it does. But if someone is going to nope me because i gave a sad HR exit interview then they're either a POS, petty, or someone i didn't want to work with anyways, honestly.
Because i go out of my way to be a decent and flexible coworker for everyone else. The only people i had any negative interactions with at this point are people i wouldn't want to work with. I'm on good terms with, like, everyone else
my last job there was 1 and he was known to have anger issues and problems working with others. At this job its basically my boss
i've met other employees. They're pretty cool. Just don't get to see them...ever lol
my team is just microscopic. Kind of blows
restive cedar
how did you guys discover your "specialty"?, for example web development or data science
weak viper
Anyone have advice to get coding internships in college? I'm a computer engineer and I'm looking for ways to get involved this summer and get experience i can throw on my resume. I love hearing from people who have been where I've been and have made it a career!
harsh patio
I found my specialty off a hunch in school. Really enjoyed the cross over of math/computer science. So I pursued a masters in ML. Really enjoy it. There is a ton to learn and the salary probably doesn't match the requirements, but I still love it
wispy cape
just did my very first internship in it and it was super cool
white karma
Nice
weak viper
where at? if you don't mind me asking @wispy cape
harsh patio
I really need to get into the deeper levels of ML. I haven't done much with Deep Learning, but I think i'm going to focus my DL expertise into computer vision
but NLP and Computer Vision are the big ones
craggy wave
!warn 513563557028167693 I'm not sure why it even needs to be said, but please don't spam channels begging for "free robux in roblox"
inner wrenBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @boreal radish.
rain snow
What
topaz tartan
move to one of the offtopic channels #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval
white karma
To any of the backend devs out there, what sort of daily routine do you have at work? Like what tasks and such are you meant to do?
topaz tartan
routine?
white karma
I mean like
topaz tartan
i clean my code
then I wipe my hard disk xD
ok jokes apart, implementing new / requested features?
white karma
Is that a daily thing? I’m trying to comprehend what someone working backend would do all day at work
topaz tartan
sometimes a refactor, like in case of python2 > python3 migration, not usually tho
white karma
I see
Well thank you for the input, I genuinely had little idea what backend devs do once they finish a website or app
white karma
I should have been expecting that answer
topaz tartan
there's always room for improvement, new features, more optimizations, scaling up for traffic, refactoring, upgrading dependencies and making fixes for those upgrades and what not
marsh wind
With our devs we dream the moment we can do refactor, scale up and upgrades
white karma
That bad huh?
vapid jay
Wrong channel**
stable solstice
Hey guys
Quick question. What is the best language to make video games on mobile applications?
I feel I asked this before but forgot to screenshot.
narrow delta
What's careers can I get in if I love computer science and maths and physics??
minor charm
marsh wind
That bad huh?
@white karma 2 full stack devs only. Ain't a lot
Well I exaggerated a bit
white karma
Ouch, that due to hiring restraint or lack of talent?
marsh wind
More like first. As a startup, can't afford to hire many. And until startup earns name the important selling point is cheaper product price
And both of those are contracted freelancers from cheaper country
I guess Cause locally senior back/fullstack would cost lot more
Well maybe not lot but more than they are willing to spend on project now
Which means that reactors usually happen when they work on a related functionality for example or one that is dependent on the piece of code to refactor and it would help to make it easier
And upgrades scale up etc when there's bit of breezing space between major takss
twin ether
I'm estimated to graduate with a bachelors in network security in about 1 year 3 months and I JUST started trying to pick up python. I'm worried that it won't be enough time to pick up python as it's my first programing language. If anyone has experience, my question is I totally screwed and should I begin rushing this language within the next year?
topaz tartan
I'm the only Dev tho, I mean the backend dev
craggy elm
@twin ether make a project or 2 with python. im of the opinion that projects are better than just saying "hey i know python" because projects give other people a barometer for how much you know
topaz tartan
^
distant crow
so many people say they know python, and then you put them in front of a computer and tell them to do a task, and they freeze
white karma
so many people say they know python, and then you put them in front of a computer and tell them to do a task, and they freeze
@distant crow
A lot of times that comes from internalized panic more than not knowing something
distant crow
there will always be some cases of that, but I wouldn't say "a lot"
also I use the term "freeze" figuratively, I meant in general people who fail to do that task
so yeah, if they literally froze, then yes, you could say that could be panic
what I should have said is "and then you put them in front of a computer and tell them to do a task, and it turns out they don't know as much python as they claim"
I think I told the story in here already, but very fresh in my memory was a technical test for someone who should have had a lot of experience, they did very well in earlier interview stages, but when it came to the technical test, the bombed out hard
not because they froze. They went off in entirely the wrong direction.
shadow moss
Whiteboard questions are great for multiple reasons
if you are uncomfortable with them, work on that
distant crow
this wasn't whiteboard, they were free to use their own IDE, free to google stuff, etc. etc.
the first part of the task was simple: grab a json from a website. This wasn't meant to be a challenge, they just needed to get the file for next steps
they spent a whole hour and failed to do that. You can google "download json from url" and get the answer in minutes
you know what they did? They opted to start not from an empty file, but from a project template that they had already. It was a django project template. they then proceeded to try to create an endpoint that... I can't even what they were trying to do or thought they were trying to do
their task: download JSON from URL
they tried to make a webserver to... do... something. When challenged about how they were supposed to make a request, they said something very confidently that made no sense. That's the kind of person I'm talking about
left socket
You see, I have to unit test my code. So I need to set up a webserver to see if it is fetching things!
distant crow
yes...
Panic or interview nerves or anxiety, I understand, that can happen. We make allowances for it, I've recommended follow-on interviews in different format if I suspect that has been the case. Unfortunately sometimes we don't give a fair chance to people who are unfairly disadvantaged by an interview format
however, we also can't afford to mis-hire people who misrepresent their skills. For those at least we know how to filter them out - practical tests
crude crown
would you say you try to minimize false positives as much as possible, at the expense of some false negatives happening?
distant crow
I would say that I don't have the necessary experience or the budget to make a compromise between the two that would be more equitable than what I do today
and I make some attempt to do it - I don't do whiteboarding interviews, and the tasks that I post allow you to use your own system (if you prefer, if not one will be provided), and google whatever you want in the background
orchid crystal
hey guys, i have been looking around on the interwebs but i still cant figure out what the difference is between a software engineer and software developer. thanks in advance
orchid crystal
yess! we have an office fan!
distant crow
I think "software engineer" and "software developer" is mostly interchangeable these days
orchid crystal
yeah
i think a engineer does more planning and design and then the developer does more of the dirty work
distant crow
yeah, strictly it's supposed to be like that, but I suspect most of the time people aren't making a distinction
orchid crystal
? im confused
crude crown
it's a bit of a joke, "Software engineer" is just fancier and has more heft in a resume/CV.
orchid crystal
oh ok
topaz tartan
I'm Dwight
orchid crystal
i am 13 and i am already planning my future 😆 i really want to be a software engineer
topaz tartan
crude crown
in 5 years a lot of things can and will change.
distant crow
I hope things don't get worse than 2020
crude crown
just stay focused on school and learn well. When you're in high-school you might consider that again.
in the mean time, whatever you choose in the future most likely you'll have to do some coding
so you might mess around a bit for now
that would be my advice.
distant crow
I've been coding since 6am too
that's very early, but I assume you enjoy it?
if so, going into software would make sense, but keep an eye out for other related fields too. there's a lot, ranging from embedded systems, to mechatronics, to robotics
autumn flower
I keep reading the differences between software engineer and developer but is there a big difference between the two...I'm thinking one is more "client" focus than the other but is one more 'difficult to learn or something' ? As..if you're looking jobs -- perhaps dev is less of a barrier to entry ?
distant crow
I think the differences came from back when people felt software was an "engineering" topic - one you might get a degree for studying
however, what's happened is that it's no longer a field where you need a few years of formal study in theory to be able to do, and instead, what we have is something that requires a lot of practical experience rather than theory
autumn flower
i see 🤔 thanks
distant crow
so i guess for a software engineer, you're supposed to have had formal study of theory. And a software developer is a practitioner of making software.
Very much like the distinction between an electrical engineer and an electrician
but... these days who knows, I don't think there's as strong a distinction, and probably most people don't treat them differently. Though perhaps larger companies may have strict requirement for language
topaz walrus
as an electrical engineer who is trying to switch to tech, i think your general assessment is correct meseta, and in these modern times
the strict requirements and qualifications on SWE are no longer present
You can become an SWE either self-taught or from a coding bootcamp w/o the need for an accredited degree
you could say SWE and Developer are interchangeable
cedar panther
But can you work in Research if you don't have a degree? I have the feeling that most self-taught Developers end up as code drones.
wispy cape
Academia is out of the question for sure
And I know, where I am in France, non-academic research institute always ask for at least a Masters
crude crown
sounds really weird for me to hear someone claiming going from EE to "tech"
proper engineering is much more worthy of the name "tech" compared to software IMO.
yeah, if you don't have at least a Master's forget about research (even applied research as well)
dry sapphire
software engineering isn't proper?
vast shoal
Both are technology. shrug
crude crown
well, yes they are.
vast shoal
Not sure what the big deal is.
crude crown
just a minor pet peeve of mine.
vast shoal
I met a chemical engineer once who also claimed SE wasn't real engineering. Seems kind of childish to me.
mortal wedge
Yeah, all the big research oriented companies around here demand a masters at a minimum but mainly want PhDs
Just to add my two cents, there are SE jobs that do require formal training/theory. I'm an algorithm engineer in the biomedical field, and wouldn't be able to do what I do without heavy CS and BMED background
The people in my company who only specialized in one are completely lost when it comes to doing what I do
dry sapphire
what's BMED?
mortal wedge
Biomedical Engineering
dry sapphire
where does the D come from
dry sapphire
🥴
crude crown
MED - Medical?
vast shoal
BioMEDical engineering, presumably.
mortal wedge
Technically it should be BME but BMED just stuck
crude crown
and never heard about that BMED acronym, only have heard about the BME one.
mortal wedge
Maybe it's just an acronym in engineering unis
Because everyone is assumed to be some sort of engineer
vast shoal
It gets the point across anyhow.
dry sapphire
incidentally, what's the DS/SWE scene like in northern Europe?
is it worth going there to work
crude crown
I think it's worth to separate both of them
dry sapphire
yeah
mortal wedge
DS?
mortal wedge
Data structures scene?
dry sapphire
to be clear, I'm asking about them separately
mortal wedge
HAHA
dry sapphire
since I'm comfortable doing both
mortal wedge
Ofc
dry sapphire
but yes, of course they're different
vast shoal
Sweden has a huge software industry, relative to population size.
vast shoal
Someone around here claimed that developer is the most common job in Stockholm.
@dry sapphire Absolutely.
dry sapphire
I was in Sweden for exchange a while back and it was p nice
crude crown
yeah, Sweden Finland and Estonia have nice tech scenes AFAIK
mortal wedge
Companies are opening locations in that area when the population density doesn't otherwise indicate they should
vast shoal
Most of my coworkers are not Swedish.
crude crown
Norway doesn't have much a name in SWE for some reason though
vast shoal
I think there are plenty of software jobs there as well, though.
I was scouted for one when I was in uni.
crude crown
maybe due to it being seen as a kinda low status thing over there (this was told to me by a norwegian PhD student many years ago)
dry sapphire
accommodation is expensive though, right?
I remember even my student lodging was not cheap
crude crown
in Estonia not really, elsewhere yeah.
dry sapphire
yeah, I remember food being rather pricey 😢
especially for a student
I wanna take a master's sometime in the near future but not sure how that's going to pan out with CoVID
mortal wedge
Germany does a lot of research that I assume benefits from a healthy field of data science
dry sapphire
was originally planning to go to the US but now I'm not sure
considering somewhere in Europe
mortal wedge
They're currently the leading country with regards to neuroscience, at any rate
crude crown
Germany does a bit of research yes, but it's not the utmost paragon of innovation IMO.
vast shoal
I would not go work in the US no matter what they paid me.
mortal wedge
US isn't the leading country in any sort of scientific research anymore, except maybe diabetes 😦
It's really tragic
crude crown
but I might be biased for having worked in a sucursal of Fraunhofer for a while.
mortal wedge
Hah, macha, a German research scientist I met recently would disagree
dry sapphire
I would not go work in the US no matter what they paid me.
@vast shoal not reaaally planning to work there, just to study
crude crown
It's an applied research institute after all.
vast shoal
@dry sapphire Isn't that ridiculously expensive?
mortal wedge
Yeah
crude crown
I would totally work in the US if I could.
dry sapphire
which I would need for sure
vast shoal
I got a good education for free, so that does not appeal to me at all.
dry sapphire
okay, I haven't been keeping up with DS/AI stuff for a while, but I always had the perception that the US was the best place for a SWE/DS/AI-related master's
I defo don't wanna take it in my country (Singapore)
mortal wedge
Well, one thing to keep in mind too is that currently masters in the US are online rn
vast shoal
I doubt I could've gotten an education that was significantly better than the one I got here.
crude crown
it's in the top choices for sure (but it really depends on the University you go to)
mortal wedge
You could take the online courses anywhere
dry sapphire
yeah, I've seen those
vast shoal
Not saying my school was super amazing, I just don't think it would have made much of a difference.
mortal wedge
From any phsyical location, rather
dry sapphire
but I want to physically be there
crude crown
it's not so much the education itself that matters (classes and courses are not the differentiating element nowadays)
mortal wedge
Gotcha
crude crown
it's the physical resources, the network, etc.
dry sapphire
like it's more about the environment and people than anything else
yeah, that
and also I want to travel
vast shoal
I didn't need to network to find a good job.
mortal wedge
Networking helps
crude crown
it most definitely does.
vast shoal
Maybe it does, it just didn't help me.
mortal wedge
Which is fair
crude crown
fair enough.
dry sapphire
I didn't need to network to find a good job.
@vast shoal more to meet people
than for job-seeking
I don't have a SWE background so most of the people I know IRL don't either
mortal wedge
My company doesn't do a ton of job postings, they scout and recruit people they know in the industry
vast shoal
@dry sapphire For that, I don't think it matters if you go to a well-known school or not.
crude crown
I was actually thinking more on networking in the sense of knowing professors and people that work in specific labs.
mortal wedge
The only job postings my company does are for part time contractors.
crude crown
not the networking towards elbow greasing in frats or something like that to find gigs in the future (but that's also a possibility)
vast shoal
I'm sure companies hire people they know if they can, but I have the impression demand is too high, so they are forced to recruit elsewhere anyway.
mortal wedge
I started as one then just worked ridiculous hours to prove myself and pushed for full time.
vast shoal
That's why there are recruiters spamming me on LinkedIn every other day.
mortal wedge
Haha
crude crown
you're full time now there ultimatechaos?
vast shoal
Yeah
mortal wedge
Yup!
vast shoal
Sorry
mortal wedge
Well, that's what I mean. A lot of companies, like let's say google, have their employees and then they have their contractors that are the second class employees
vast shoal
Misread
crude crown
wasn't it like 3 months or so?
crude crown
well, now you can't go below the expectations you've set :V
mortal wedge
It's not the norm though, and we joke about it. Most others at the company were scouted and recruited
...yeah...
wispy cape
Well, that's what I mean. A lot of companies, like let's say google, have their employees and then they have their contractors that are the second class employees
that's almost everywhere, from what I gathered
mortal wedge
It makes sense, right?
crude crown
yeah, that's a general thing everywhere in the world
mortal wedge
You don't have to fire subpar people. You just don't renew their contract
wispy cape
that scenario happened right before covid where i work
crude crown
well, that's a very usual thing here in my country
we have the so called short-term contracts
wispy cape
just let 2 people end their contract and didn't renew them
vast shoal
Here, you basically can't fire full-time employees, so there's even more of an incentive to use contractors.
wispy cape
also threw away their code because holy moly
crude crown
there's a funny thing here in my country
where there are outsourcing companies that outsource their work to other outsourcing companies
dry sapphire
ah, abstraction
crude crown
it's like a damn pyramid scheme
you have client X and then you have two or even three levels of outsourcing
LOL
mortal wedge
Speaking of work from home, is anyone else obscenely spoiled from it? It's so nice to take the morning off and work nights or work early and take the afternoon off. Or take a day off and work on the weekend.
I don't know how I'm ever going to be able to adapt going back into an office
crude crown
and I've been working about 50% of time compared when I had to be on the office
dry sapphire
my country is resuming office work
vast shoal
I have a newborn, and I'm about to switch jobs from one that lets me work from home to one that doesn't. And to be honest, I'm relieved.
dry sapphire
and, as expected, many companies are getting employees to come back even though they could work from home
crude crown
still delivering the goods though.
dry sapphire
🙄
mortal wedge
Yeah... I do my best to ensure my productivity is about at the same place. But I'm probably overall working less hours.
wispy cape
Ahah @vast shoal all my coworkers with very young kids were the first to come back to the office
crude crown
my company officially transited into a full remote one
mortal wedge
Yeah, I'm still delivering, too. One thing about being home though is that I'm not met with office distractions
wispy cape
To quote them: "It was lovely the first two weeks, then the headaches became unbearable"
vast shoal
@wispy cape Work is like a vacation by comparison.
mortal wedge
Yeah, when covid hit you could tell which employees had their own place and which had to move back in with their families, lol
vast shoal
Mine is five weeks now, and it's tough but manageable. We have worked out good routines at this point. But still, work is super relaxing.
crude crown
but on the other hand I'm in a special set of circunstances that allows me to slack in this way.
wispy cape
Yeah, I'm still delivering, too. One thing about being home though is that I'm not met with office distractions
Funny, for me, it's the complete opposite
mortal wedge
You have less distractions in the office?
wispy cape
I don't have anything else to do at work other than working
crude crown
A thing that really helps me on avoiding distraction is to have totally different laptops/computers for working and personal use
mortal wedge
wispy cape
I'm not rich enough 
vast shoal
@wispy cape It's like that for me too. I prefer working in the office because it's a clean focused environment.
mortal wedge
I... do have discord on my work laptop though >.>
vast shoal
Working from home feels messy.
crude crown
I had a gig before where I would use my personal one to connect via RDP to an workstation... it wasn't the best choice
mortal wedge
My excuse is for this server that it helps me be productive (maybe?)
Yeah, when I was a contractor I just used my personal one
crude crown
well, I have a company provided Macbook Pro :p
mortal wedge
But it's really freeing to have it on two different computers
wispy cape
My work computer is a chromebook... It's basically a door stop
mortal wedge
Company provided dell
wispy cape
I have a desktop in the office, which probably explains why i prefer working there
mortal wedge
Surprisingly efficient one
crude crown
it really helps on keeping things separate and to be focused IMO
on the MBP wrt personal stuff I only have a personal Slack workspace and a dropbox with my notes
and my personal email as well.
that and using Pomodoros also helps
(and thinking about ways to streamline some tasks that I do here and there).
mortal wedge
I do have slack on my cell and my personal laptop though
In case I'm not working on hours that most people are
crude crown
well, I do have a personal rule
I never install nothing company related into my cellphone
including my company's Slack workspace.
mortal wedge
Sounds like a good boundary
crude crown
exactly, it's a matter of establishing boundaries
everything in it's place.
I don't do on-call stuff, so I have no need to have company stuff on my cellphone
at most, I have the company's slack on my personal computer
mortal wedge
This seems like an odd distinction to make, but while I often give myself work for the weekend I don't let anybody else give me work over the weekend
crude crown
that's fair enough IMO.
this is actually something that's happening to me since WFH, which is to sometimes do some stuff on the weekends
but that's mostly due to... being occupied with other things during the week.
mortal wedge
Precisely
Like... the week I went apartment viewing, I ended up working that weekend
There's just so much stuff that can only get done during the week
crude crown
indeed
still, I really ought to enforce boundaries on this more
as well as working times during the week, sometimes I work on stuff during the night
(which is a consequence of not having done anything in the mornings or something like that)
yeah, I'm being spoiled for sure now that I think of it.
topaz tartan
haha same
sometimes I can't finish something on a weekday because I don't have the energy to do it because of stupid calls and meetings
or just don't feel like it yk
so I give it a shot on a weekend maybe or at night
light knoll
Hello I’ve got a question, is there a good place/way to make money coding as a high school student?
Thanks
queen rapids
Freelance work, websites for businesses, websites for yourself w/ ad revenue
But honestly improving your skills, doing well in school and enjoying your teenage years should be placed above it
junior merlin
Hey guys, just wanted to know, which programming languages are most used in different companies?
weary trout
@junior merlin DuckDuckGo that information since you have internet. 😉
fiery heron
Which country is best in terms of work life balance as a software engineer??
distant crow
I hear Germany has it good
crude crown
Northern Europe in general are good bets
cedar panther
countries with strong labour unions are a good choice
like Germany, Scandinavia or the Netherlands.
vast shoal
I work in Sweden, and I'd say work-life balance here is excellent in my experience.
gilded valley
@vast shoal is there any kind of union specifically for software stuff? I'm assuming not
cedar panther
They have one in Germany so Sweden might have one as well. I thought Sweden had even stronger unions
distant crow
here's a union specifically for software stuff: https://docs.python.org/3/library/typing.html#typing.Union
software unions seem rare, but it seems to work in Germany. I'm in the UK where the work-life balance is...meh, better than the US, not as good as elsewhere in northern Europe. Hell of a lot better than China
vast shoal
@gilded valley There are no major ones specifically for software as far as I can tell, but there's one for engineers with university degrees in general. There are probably others you could join. I wouldn't say that union membership is necessary in order to maintain work-life balance, it's more of a professional culture thing here.
subtle yacht
Is it okay for me to ask for a CV review here? or if not does anyone know where I can go to for one?
cedar panther
are you still in Uni? If yes I'd ask a prof or the career centre rather than people on a discord server.
Also if you do it on the internet make sure that you don't accidentally doxx yourself lol
vapid jay
Out of curiosity, how long does it take to deploy a model for you guys?
Or wrong channel
Or you can answer
I wanted to hear from several people whether if it is easy or difficult for some to deploy ML models
after cleaning the data
subtle yacht
are you still in Uni? If yes I'd ask a prof or the career centre rather than people on a discord server.
@cedar panther I usually get conflicting advice form careers ppl at uni and tech ppl at CV workshops I think because the careers ppl have advice for general careers rather than tech so that was why i was trying to look for specifically tech servers to get advice from 😅 and dw ive got a redacted version with my personal details like address/email removed
distant crow
into production?
vapid jay
Yes
distant crow
our pipelines that automatically ingest data for unsupervised learning, pretty much do it automatically, they're run in Airflow and I dunno, process takes a few minutes to push the models to the models store API, and update some database values. Next time something tries to use a model, the endpoint reads the latest model version from database and realises it doesn't have the model cached, so pulls it, and now it's in the models cache to be used for this and new requests.
for other kinds of model, someone has to compress it, and upload it to the models bucket, and update the path in the project that's using it so it downloads the model. Tag a build, CI takes care of deploying it
also yes, wrong channel. I'll stop talking about it here
distant crow
probably
night rock
"I have a po box business and I currently have a very poor websites. I was thinking of making it better by allowing clients to pay online to extend their mailbox subscription. Then maybe other things as well, such as notify clients by texting them when their po box is about to expire. "
I am a freelancer and someone had this request, can someone tell me what a website like this is supposed to cost (what I should charge)
vagrant egret
File "C:/Users/Tomas/Desktop/Asteroids/Asteroids.py", line 76
super(Missile, self).__init__(self.rotation)
^
IndentationError: expected an indented block
class Missile(Spaceship):
def __init__(self):
super(Missile, self).__init__()
So I would like to inherit from Spaceship but this method doesnt work. Why ?
inland sinew
Guys, I don't if this is appropriate to this channel. but I have a question.
Sometimes if I answer or solve the problem in coding then I almost forgot it right after or if it appears again, I got mental blocked.
What did you do or what did you practice to overcome this? any tips or tricks?
hexed moon
Comments, documentation
Your not going to remember the entire code base so do yourself a favour and write clean code and document your bugs, progress and thought process
vapid jay
I am a beginner in Python, Can someone have look at my Github repo and tell me if its is worth putting this on a CV? I am not applying for Developer jobs, just as an added skill set. Here's the my github page : https://github.com/davistdaniel/
odd prism
@vapid jay I would 100% put this on my resume/CV. I haven't dived in the code but it looks like well documented and organized. Especially if you're applying for a non Developer role.
does anyone have any suggestions on learning data structures/algorithms for a FAANG interview?
mortal wedge
If you're just reviewing, something like leetcode will help you practice. Otherwise I recommend taking some sort of class. There's also a REALLY good book I bought that got me a job, let me grab it real quick
http://www.crackingthecodinginterview.com/ @odd prism
white karma
Does this help with any language in general or only a specific one?
wispy cape
it uses Java, but it's generic enough to be applied to any language
also has a part on C++ iirc ?
odd prism
I’ve got that book and going through it but a lot of the stuff is over my head
I’m taking some coursera classes as well
fathom horizon
grim star
Is this a API for stocks, it dosnt show a CSV being loaded, I want to get stock prices for a Numbers sheet I kept track of for a year.
mortal wedge
It covers several different languages but most examples are given in Java due to it being easy to read and understand for people who don't regularly use the language. It is mainly geared at honing your already assumed basics into acing a coding interview. If you don't already have the basics, there are ways to obtain them. You mentioned coursera, that's what I used and it worked great for me.
marsh wind
(which is a consequence of not having done anything in the mornings or something like that)
@crude crown a bit of a necro-post from me, but imo there is nothing wrong if you shift your work to nights/weekends if it's comfy for you and if you are not very dependent on communication with team (or vice verse). And, ofc, as long as you don't start working 12-16h per day
odd prism
@mortal wedge do you mind if i add you as a friend? i would like to compare my study guide if you dont mind
mortal wedge
Go for it
grim star
When your receiving info for a stock, do you need to use some api? I found tutorials that are loading info for a stock, but it isn’t importing a CSV file
pulsar drum
cedar trout
guys, Im applying for an intern and there is a question "how many hours a week are you available?"
since im student, I dont know how is it often in IT companies, and there is my question:
2. do companies work on the Saturday?```@cedar trout This could vary from country to country, but where I'm from, companies generally prefer you to work ~8AM-5PM, since it makes communication within the team easier. Maybe you can find an employer that would allow you a deviating schedule, but it would probably be a minus in their book. We generally only work Monday through Friday, but some companies will allow you to work overtime on the weekend under certain conditions. Usually during crunch or for incident management.
vapid jay
How do you guys detect data drift while monitoring the quality of your models during your jobs?