career-advice

[wispy cape]

if you end up wanting to go into graphics programming later on for example, you're really regret not taking these linalg classes

[sleek adder]

what is discrete math?

[wispy cape]

the study of "countable things"

it's a very very broad field

[sleek adder]

this is all i got

[dry sapphire]

I have never heard the term "contemporary mathematics"

that's interesting

[wispy cape]

you'll see graphs, propositional logic, set theory etc

[mortal wedge]

Probably Mathematical Applications / Mathematical Methods/ Specialist Methods/ Specialist Mathematics

Something with engineering in it

Although statistics sounds interesting

[true harness]

graphs and set theory is probably what you'll learn a lot of

[mortal wedge]

Sorry I'm not very helpful I told you to just pick half the list

[wispy cape]

i'd say the list itself is not very helpful

[dry sapphire]

Probably Mathematical Applications / Mathematical Methods/ Specialist Methods/ Specialist Mathematics
@mortal wedge weren't you cyan yesterday

[sleek adder]

Well i have to pick one of it.

[wispy cape]

is there an exhaustive list of what each contain ?

[sleek adder]

No, that is why it's confusing for me.

[wispy cape]

i'd pick any of the last 2

if you want a generalist approach

[mortal wedge]

gm, a little while back. They came out with new patron colors for different levels so I upgraded my level for a better color

Charlie has the "best" color but it doesn't look as good 🙂

Anyway, careers

[sleek adder]

and i assume, digital is the only option for this correct?

[wispy cape]

I'm unsure what you mean

[sleek adder]

for IT, do i pick only digital or both?

[mortal wedge]

Ooooh! Mechatronics was so much fun! Challenging, but a total blast

[sweet shore]

@sleek adder if you can pick both, do both lol

[sleek adder]

Oh but would it waste my chance?

[mortal wedge]

Robotics and mechatronics are really cool, but are for stuff like embedded and... robotics

Depends on if those fields interest you or not

[wispy cape]

before you think about taking both, make sure it's even possible, agenda-wise

you probably don't want to have to spend all days of the week 8-8 in a classroom

[sleek adder]

i am told to pick 5 subjects.

i was thinking of 1 math class, 1 for business and uhh thats all i had in mind

[woeful spruce]

wow you get to learn how to program circuits

...jealous

[vapid jay]

Whats the most in demand backend languages for websites

[wintry imp]

form what ive seen so far,|| totally personal opinion || C# , java, js and php

node js ||specifically||

[dark dragon]

Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but I'm currently studying Python on the side and am planning to do a career shift. I'm currently 26 and working as a SAP consultant, and have a background in Industrial Engineering. Reason for wanting to shift careers is because I feel like getting into Data Science/Statistics. Is it too late? What should I expect if ever I do push through?

[sweet shore]

@dark dragon it's never too late, but don't expect a lot of money at first considering you are basically hitting the bottom of the pecking order

@dark dragon also, everything I've seen right now shows that data science hiring has cratered due to the pandemic, I'm sure it'll come back though.

@dark dragon otherwise, not sure what you are asking lol

[dark dragon]

Thanks for the response @sweet shore 😄 Well yeah I guess I wouldn't mind starting at the bottom, I mean better now than never right?

[sweet shore]

Correct

[dark dragon]

Also, what are the other ways I could utilize Python? I mean it got me interested because it could also give me the opportunity to freelance/do personal projects on the side outside of work. Is that a possible case?

tbh main reason why I want to shift because current technology I'm working on is too exclusive

[sweet shore]

@dark dragon sure, personal projects are always possible lol. Freelance tends to be a bit harder. You have to either be very, very good, or very, very cheap right now lol

99% of freelancing is marketing yourself

@dark dragon also, rather than totally switching vertical markets, have you considered maybe writing open source alternatives to the exclusive tech you already have domain knowledge of?

[dark dragon]

@dark dragon sure, personal projects are always possible lol. Freelance tends to be a bit harder. You have to either be very, very good, or very, very cheap right now lol
@sweet shore That's good to hear! Well, "very very cheap" may be decent/good already in my country so I don't mind taking the chances haha

@dark dragon also, rather than totally switching vertical markets, have you considered maybe writing open source alternatives to the exclusive tech you already have domain knowledge of?
@sweet shore Well, that's the thing. In my current line of work I'm a functional consultant, so I don't really touch the code. Also SAP is very exclusive, and I don't see the possibility of doing that.

[sweet shore]

I've heard of SAP but I have no idea what they do (like HR or accounting stuff? Lol)

But really I was thinking more the "industrial engineering" way lol

[dark dragon]

Ahh gotchu @sweet shore well I could do that, but switching companies is still a must xD I'll consider that. Thanks for the input!

[dusky falcon]

.

[cerulean tangle]

SAP does administration systems

[tepid cape]

Guys I have a masters in accounting, but most of my graduate classes were more in the field of data analysis and statistics, a lot of R, python and SAP ERP. Could I get a job as a data analyst or data engineer even tho my advanced degree is technically in accounting ?

[gilded valley]

Probably. Especially in the finance industry

Look for job postings and see if you have the necessary skills

[tepid cape]

I have been looking for entry positions and seems like I could be qualified for data analyst

I’m starting to really like python

And programming in general

[gilded valley]

If you have the necessary skills then apply

Is my suggestion

[tepid cape]

But I’m wondering if I should start looking for a job or maybe do a boot camp since I don’t have a CS degree

[shadow moss]

right now, it might be harder with just COVID thing

No, no boot camp

What country are you in?

[tepid cape]

US

[shadow moss]

No boot camp

[tepid cape]

Should I become more proficient on my own in python and SQL?

[gilded valley]

My current financey company would almost certainly hire you into a DS role if there was ah opening

[shadow moss]

You might not be getting call backs just because COVID

[tepid cape]

How good should my coding skills be?

[shadow moss]

decent

keep work on Python and SQL

Master in Accounting should get you some callbacks when craziness dies down

[tepid cape]

That’s what I’m hoping haha

[shadow moss]

are you a recent grad?

[tepid cape]

At least using my time well, I’m doing datacamp

Kind of lol

Dec 2019

Graduation

[shadow moss]

that might come up so just have a reason for lack of job

[tepid cape]

I’m flying through data camp courses

[shadow moss]

like you graduate in Dec 2019 and didn't have a job lined up? What's going on here?

[tepid cape]

Rabbit...

I did a complete 180

[vapid jay]

I cant decide between ai and web dev, how am i supposed to decide

[tepid cape]

I was gonna get a CPA originally

But now I’m sure I don’t wanna be an accountant but a developer

[shadow moss]

so I have cousin who is accountant, does CPA licenses require ongoing education?

[tepid cape]

Yeah you need masters for CPA which was originally my plan

[shadow moss]

then you need to sit for the test right?

[tepid cape]

Yeah 4 tests

[shadow moss]

is it crazy expensive?

[tepid cape]

I mean not really

[shadow moss]

sit for it

[tepid cape]

Just a few thousand

Yeah... that’s what everyone tells me haha

CPA make a lot of money

[shadow moss]

I'm not saying you have to go be accountant

[tepid cape]

All my class mates are making 150k in San Fran already Xd

[shadow moss]

but with recruiters, you want to distinguish yourself

[tepid cape]

True

[shadow moss]

and gives you a great story

[tepid cape]

Here is the thing it would take me a few months to get ready for the CPA

[shadow moss]

So I graduated in December, sat for my CPA and starting doing data work. While I got my CPA, I started to love this data science work

[tepid cape]

But I started doing data work in grad school and that’s when I decided

[shadow moss]

so as someone who has dealt with recruiters and seen filtered out results, stuff that isn't standard can be an excuse

[tepid cape]

Dude programming is just so much more interesting than accounting

[shadow moss]

that's downside of not talking to people

sure, but I can give you recruiter train of thought

[tepid cape]

I love logic and problem solving in different ways

[shadow moss]

time to shift through these stack of resumes

[tepid cape]

Accounting is just endless protocol

[shadow moss]

looking at resumes ok, mao, Masters in Accounting, some data classes in State U but didn't sit for his CPA. That's weird, could they not hack it? What's being hidden from me? What's % of those who get degrees in accounting that don't pass the CPA? Tiny %, meh, it's employer market, thrown into maybe pile

that's downside to COVID hiring, ANY RED FLAGS and you need to look at yourself as recruiter will, just through eyes of resume and you get tossed into maybe pile and if there is anyone better

I think it's great you have accounting degree and want to do data science, I worked with accountants at last job, I saw how soul crushing it could be

but when it's employer market (and it is) when you have 500 resumes that met the cut for minimum (whatever that is) you are looking for any reason to throw a resume away

because if you take more then 5 resumes to hiring manager, they will be unhappy, no one has time for that

3 weeks ago, my boss gave me a stack of resumes for SREs to filter for him because recruiter was like "We got flooded"

spelling mistake, you were done, more then 2 pages, I don't have time for that, done and I still came out with 3 good candidates for phone interviews

TL;DR, get your CPA or similar, if you never become accountant, it won't matter and it gives you fall back, best way to get a job is to have one

[tepid cape]

@shadow moss thank you, but CPA is def out of the question, another thing is you need 2 years under a CPA which I don’t have

[wintry nymph]

What exactly is the career path for an ML engineer ? What does a fresher have to do to become an ML engineer since big companies prefer only experienced engineers or someone with a PhD ? Are they given some other position initially ?

[gilded valley]

The easiest path involves having done data science internships whilst studying - but I'm guessing it's a little late for that. A secondary thing is just reaching for literally any relevant experience you can to put on your CV, Kaggle competitions, open source work, etc

It also depends on what country you're based in

[wintry nymph]

Well I'm a 3rd year CS student in India

[vapid jay]

I cant decide between ai and web dev, how am i supposed to decide

[gilded valley]

I have absolutely no idea for India - it's a completely different work culture there than in the UK/US

[wintry nymph]

Thanks for your advice though!

[vapid jay]

any room for c#/c++? xd

[mortal wedge]

@vapid jay Which do you think you would enjoy more?

[vapid jay]

I mean if i ever wanted to do web dev it would be full stack

But i suck at front end and hate ui/designing etc and i rlly like programming

[unkempt cloud]

Then don't be a full stack engineer? btw front end is still programming.

Honestly I suck at UI designing but I want to be a full stack engineer. It's easier to design a website by inserting a bunch of buttons, figuring out how to organize colors, padding etc. perfectly when you have a designer doing all that. I assume most full stack engineers will have someone to do the heavy lifting in the artistic department, all they have to do is convert SVGs to CSS/JS.

[shadow moss]

depends on the company

some are, our backend programmers do some front end react work but designers do design thing

others are, our frontend programmers write backend systems in NodeJS, it's house of cards but it works enough to sell

[unkempt cloud]

If making it look good matters, you should have a designer. Unless you're doing some kind of project alone.

[shadow moss]

personally, not a fan of full stack but some go getter was willing to write both and thus the position was born

so you come at Full Stack from more backend, like I said, there is other, Designer who can write front ends and also cobble together some backend NodeJS to make it work

[unkempt cloud]

Meh. The position to me is just programming in general. Why can't I write a database query before programming a couple Vue components?

[shadow moss]

specialist doesn't exist because people are lazy

it exists because it's required

How does that SQL Query impact the database server? How are these microservices interacting?

[unkempt cloud]

*Although, to be fair, humans have evolved to be more efficient by making people specialized in doing just 1 thing. Factory line thinking.

[shadow moss]

it's acting like either backend/frontend is trivial and that's problematic

[unkempt cloud]

At this point now that I'm doing both I can't figure out which one I like more. Or hate more. Need more knowledge of designing backend and more experience working in frontend to come to a conclusion.

[vapid jay]

I mean ai looks rlly fascinating

[crude crown]

it does to everyone

but it's an absolutely flooded field at the moment.

[sweet shore]

@vapid jay There have been MASSIVE AI/ML related layoffs recently as well as an entire graduating class of folks that wanted to do that kind of thing, so the work is very limited

[mortal wedge]

Whereas my boss doesn't want to hire two people so wants me to just learn ML

on the side 😄

Can I even do that, is that possible

[normal forge]

Ml’s fairly easy to understand once you get the math/stats portion down imo

As long as you don’t only just watch a tf tutorial you’ll be fine 🙃

[mortal wedge]

I'd probably need a refresher on the maths/stats but I did learn them at some point

So I'll settle with just watching a tf tutorial ig 😄

[crude crown]

@mortal wedge considering your background in DSP, it's really doable to get into ML stuff

(that's what I did btw)

[grand kindle]

Hey can anybody tell me what job I can get after python I have just started I know basics ..
Please guide me

[white karma]

Right now it’s incredibly difficult to get a job just knowing python

[true harness]

esp if you only know basics

[storm tangle]

When do you guys think it’ll go back to normal, as in entry level jobs being a thing again

They’re currently nonexistent

[mortal wedge]

If you're in the US? Doubtful at least through the end of the year

[craggy elm]

we might get a semblance of normal maybe this time next year, in the US

it's difficult to predict, given all of the idiocracy. i've personally given up applying to find a better job for the time being since i could better use that time for projects that i can use to further what i can fo

[wide needle]

Right now it’s incredibly difficult to get a job just knowing python

based on what? most places i've worked and interviewed don't test you on multiple languages. they test your ability to solve problems in any language of your choice with the expectation that you could pick up a new language on the job if you know how to solve problems in any language well

and python is one of the best languages to know for interviewing in my experience

since it allows you to move and express ideas quickly

[mortal wedge]

It's great for quickly answering dsa questions

[true harness]

yeah imagine writing for (int i = 0; i < n; i++), actually sucks

[wintry imp]

Y?

[sour tartan]

because in a whiteboard coding interview (which sucks in the first place), it's tedious to have to spell out a loop like that when you want to say, for thing in collection:

[orchid junco]

Is there any limitation with python on dsa? I'm trying learn dsa but not sure if I should learn a "real" language first before dsa.

[wintry imp]

Ah fair enought ty nedbat

In term of performance ye

But u can always use cpython to overcome that

Python is a real language wym

[sour tartan]

@orchid junco what is dsa?

[wintry imp]

Data structure and algorithm

I reckon

[orchid junco]

yes

[sour tartan]

@orchid junco you need a language more than you need the details of things like red/black trees.

so depends on what you mean by dsa. stacks? yes. red/black trees? no. don't bother.

[wispy cape]

the only major difference would be about memory allocation, and the same "issue" arises with practically every languages except a handful

[true harness]

a "real language" good one

[wintry imp]

First year of uni i was struggling hard with stack and queues lol now it just seem like a basic stuffs

Realization of how dumb i was

🙃

[mortal wedge]

You weren't dumb, you just lacked the knowledge and understanding you now have

But for an interview and your basic DSA you probably don't have to worry about tree balancing because your interviewer probably forgot how to do that as well

[wintry imp]

Well they keep saying first in first out and FILO n i was heh!

[mortal wedge]

But definitely know what a stack vs a heap is and what you would use them for

and things like that

[wintry imp]

I know it now haha ive used it many personal project now

Binary tree etc minimal spannig trees like that

I did lots of personal projects on algorithm visualisations lul

Ye but i still gotta learn lot on dsa

[dark salmon]

Right now it’s incredibly difficult to get a job just knowing python
@white karma for sure

yeah imagine writing for (int i = 0; i < n; i++), actually sucks
@true harness C++14 onwards it's actually for( auto &i: <container>)

[true harness]

unfortunately i mainly use java

[dark salmon]

yeah but C++ has actually become very readable now

you don't even need to do manual memory allocation anymore

unless you're implementing a data structure from the very scratch

unfortunately i mainly use java
@true harness i figured from your name

[true harness]

yep ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[dark salmon]

anyway career question:
Few months back I wrote a python package for camera calibration, it was essentially a wrapper around OpenCV. It helped bring down 150-200 lines of code to just 2-3 function calls from my package. I did nothing much than wrap the package neatly in another interface, but I am not sure if I should include this on my resume, mostly because i feel like people may overlook it as "oh he basically just re-used the function". for context : i am looking for entry level roles in robotics / cv

[mortal wedge]

When it comes to resumes, you put the best most relevant stuff you have on there. If you don't have enough good/relevant things, you stretch

[dark salmon]

i have other relevant projects, but i'm not sure how this project would be viewed

[mortal wedge]

So anything on your resume is basically going to have two effects.

If it's something remotely relevant, it's going to get HR to pass you on to a hiring manager

This sounds like it checks that

The second part is that you're going to be asked about it by someone who knows what they're doing.

That's more of can you speak to that experience in a meaningful way

[dark salmon]

The second part is that you're going to be asked about it by someone who knows what they're doing.
@mortal wedge makes sense.

[mortal wedge]

As far as wrappers go, I don't think that's inherently bad to have, I think you could turn it to show your knowledge of what you're wrapping and explain why you wrapped it

[dark salmon]

that's what i'm looking for -> i can speak about it meaningfully but thats the thing, i was wondering if someone from industry here can tell me what they think about a project like that

As far as wrappers go, I don't think that's inherently bad to have, I think you could turn it to show your knowledge of what you're wrapping and explain why you wrapped it
@mortal wedge got it

i definitely have knowledge about what i wrapped since i've worked with it quite a bit

[mortal wedge]

That's valuable

(to an employer)

[dark salmon]

like i said writing the calibration routine 150-250 lines

but with the wrapper you can do that in 3 lines

without losing any functionality

so i feel its more maintainable

[mortal wedge]

🙂 Tell them just that when you're asked to speak on it.

That's perfect

[dark salmon]

thanks a lot!

[mortal wedge]

Sure thing

[distant crow]

ok but use the right language, when you said you replaced 150-250 lines with 3 lines, my immediate thought was "impossible". but readign more, it turns out that you have instead hidden away (or abstracted) boilerplate and standard algorithms needed to achieve something by a convenience function

[wintry imp]

metaprogramming lul

[violet sequoia]

Hey what I should expect salary wise right out of college for python dev (in american). Is $60K low or high?

[frosty cove]

For non-tech hub that sounds about right. Depends on the company size

[violet sequoia]

Do they go hire or lower for non-tech hubs along east coast? I'd love to make like 70k out of college.

[frosty cove]

It really depends on the company. It's definitely not too uncommon to get 70 out of college

You also need to ask yourself what other benefits the company is offering you besides salary.

[violet sequoia]

ya, I'm on track with for full-time job with a government agency, but the pay for a college graduate is like 50k for g5 I think. I'd have to get a masters just to make 60K+. I wish gov paid more because it's pretty nice enviroment.

[vapid jay]

is it possible to get a job in programming without any courses behind you? even though you have knowledge of the language

in addition to that, I am looking for a quick temporary job to earn a quick bit of cash to pay for my college fee

[violet sequoia]

Oh ya definitely. Programming is needed in all areas of academica. What area are you studying?

[vapid jay]

atm I am on a completely different course

construction

but I am debating on if I should take programming instead

[violet sequoia]

Go for it, but programming is a language and takes time to master it. You can't start an expect to get hired, You need to become profient in understand how programs word and get experience using different tools

[vapid jay]

I have had a few years behind me but I dont have any grades to prove it

[violet sequoia]

few years of programing or general education?

[vapid jay]

general education

I know my way around the language

[violet sequoia]

Thats good. Try to work on some projects in your spare time. Also learn SQL- thats pretty important

[vapid jay]

ive got all of that covered 🙂

as I said, I dont have the grades to prove my knowledge

[violet sequoia]

Oh you don't need the grades or classes. I'm not a compsci major. You just need to have some applications or scripts that can impress an employer. Or better yet present an employer with some work that could be useful.

[vapid jay]

ah right ok

do you have any recommendations that could impress an employer?

I have taken the web development route pretty serious the past few months but I feel as though that isn't as useful as many other topics

[violet sequoia]

Ok, I've never really worked on development, so take my advice with a grain of salt. Web development is a shallow term. If I host some html code on github pages am I a web dev? yes. There's a bunch of subfield that aren't as sexy but are highly valued.

*just to clarify web dev is a good field nothing wrong with it. But there are a lot of data analysis jobs, back-end jobs that are hiring

[little trellis]

@violet sequoia I'd say coming out of college focus on the place you're going to learn the most rather than they pay. Obviously don't take somewhere that pays you way below market rate. With 1-2 years of good on the job training/learning you'll be far more valuable.

And web dev can be difficult these days without javascript knowledge @vapid jay

@vapid jay Have you gone down the HTML, CSS, and JS path?

[vapid jay]

I am still trying to get the JS part understood

[violet sequoia]

JS generated elements are the bane of my scrapping existance

[little trellis]

I see I see. Is web development what interests you?

[vapid jay]

I'd love to go further in Web development yes, it does interest me

[little trellis]

Okay great, that's the part that matters most. If it's exciting to you you'll do a lot better.

Have you played with any of the frameworks out there? React, Vue, ect..?

[vapid jay]

if you mean backend

yes

I've played with flask that's about it

and aiohttp

[little trellis]

Those are frontend javascript frameworks. Python with flask is good for a backend. Cool to get some async python knowledge although async in python can be pretty frustrating haha

[vapid jay]

haha I have figured that one lol

i would love to branch away from Web development cos I feel as though I am very limited to what I can do

I just don't know what else I can move to

[little trellis]

There's plenty out there. I'm in data engineering which is interesting. There are a lot of people in the Python ecosystem on the data side of things as well. There's also dev ops which can be interesting as well where you're building systems and processes to make other developers lives easier. And of course there are tons of sub-branches under any of these or other professions in the industry.

[vapid jay]

what is data engineering?

I've never really understood it

[little trellis]

We're like normal software engineers but with a focus on building data related applications and processes. So when a company needs to build out a new dataset, build out a pipeline to get data from somewhere else into their system, or any other need related to data infrastructure they give us a call.

We're the people that build the foundation and enable the Data Scientists and Analysts to do their jobs because they now have the data they need.

[vapid jay]

oh Right ok

I've wanted to create my own kind of application

[crude crown]

that's a pretty good explanation

[violet sequoia]

@little trellis could you take use through a type of project you might work on and generally how you accomplish it? I'm kinda interested.

[little trellis]

Sure, so at my previous company we consulted a lot of organization on building attribution models. These are models, machine learning involved or not, that allow an organization to get some sort of picture of how well their marketing campaigns are performing relative to each other. Basically, what you'll end up with is something like Campaign A contributed 20% of the relative value while Campaign B only contributed 10% of the relative value so Campaign A is doing better. To enable something like this that covers a wide range of campaigns you need a ton of data. Impression level data and conversion level data for all the campaigns you want to measure. We'll be the ones to build out the processes, generally in the cloud, that gets all of these sources of data, cleans them to the desired extent, and imports them all into a central repository generally the client's data warehouse. We may even be the ones to build the model and reports off of it all although that wouldn't traditionally be considered the data engineers job.

And @vapid jay I think that is a good idea. Try to work up to the point where you can build a simple CRUD application of some sorts. With that, you can touch upon a wide range of different areas. Front end, back end, database management, ect.. That should help give you a sense of which area you like the best.

[violet sequoia]

@little trellis Thank you so much for sharing

Interesting, I guess you guys work with AWS a great deal. Do you end up using c++ for data cleaning?

[little trellis]

I was primarily on GCP before. Now it's a mix of AWS and Azure at the new place. Most data cleaning is done in Python or SQL. If you run into performance issues there are things such as Apache Spark and Apache Beam that allow you to run cleaning jobs on multiple machines in parallel and get the performance you need.

I haven't touched C++ too much myself. I like GO though, especially for data engineering. Most places in the space rely primarily on Python though.

[vapid jay]

that is very interesting

[violet sequoia]

What GCP stand for? I'm sorry I'm ignorant. Yes, parallel threading! Where do you see the data engineering space move to in the next few years? More cloud base service done out of house or not? - that's my biggest worry

[little trellis]

Google Cloud Platform. Just's Google's cloud offering. I'm thinking just more and more into the cloud. There are still plenty of companies that rely heavily on on-prem systems and are beginning to see the benefits to moving to the cloud. There will most likely be more of a rise of other languages like GO and Julia in the space but I don't see Python going away anytime soon. There will probably be more DEs doing hybrid roles involving machine learning probably replacing the idea of an ML Engineer to some extent.

What's your worry around that?

[violet sequoia]

Outsourcing to India. I've seen it happen in the tech field.

(I'm American so...)

I've heard about GO not Julia from a friend. Is it worth learning a proprietary language like go?

[little trellis]

Yeah, India is definitely a large source of jobs inside and outside the US. At the moment though (maybe not now with covid but in general), there are so many jobs in the field (not so much entry-level but mid-level) and such a shortage that I wouldn't consider it too much of a worry.

I think so. GO is a very simple and clean language and handles concurrency like no other. The static typing can be refreshing sometimes when coming from all dynamic languages. Less people know them so learning them keeps you ahead of the curve to some extent.

[violet sequoia]

Ya, I guess it depend on the company you work for. lol didn't google force all thier employees to learn Go or is that an urban myth?

Wait so what's the benefit of using GO or Julia over SQL?

[little trellis]

Not sure on that one. Developers at Google created GO but Google itself uses a ton of different languages.

They're just different tools for different jobs. SQL is meant solely for interfacing with databases (although some services like Google Bigquery are changing that). Go and Julia are full fledged programming languages where you can build programs in. SQL can perform operations on data that is already in the database but you'll need Go, Julia, or something else to get it in there.

[violet sequoia]

I'm confused aren't static type program not intended to run programs? I thought the point of static type programs was purely for data retrieval.

[little trellis]

It just relates to how the variables are defined and checked. With a statically typed language, you need to define the variable and type before hand which will be checked at compile time. With dynamic, you generally don’t need to declare the type and the variables are checked at run time.

[violet sequoia]

My bad. I'll definitely check GO out

[little trellis]

No worries at all, questions are good. Yeah, it’s a fun language to code in.

[sweet shore]

@violet sequoia kubernetes is go, terraform is go, so yeah, is not just for data (though static typing really helps for that lol)

[violet sequoia]

@sweet shore I wouldn't know where to start with kubernetes or terraform. These seem like platforms that simplify interacting between cloud computing and the user?

[sweet shore]

I'm not saying to learn then, just examples of apps that aren't data specific lol

Go is my primary language, so I'm biased

[violet sequoia]

I've actually never used AWS or AZURE. I've only had experience managing data in my own SQL server via SQL Workbench

@sweet shore ya I'm always interested in learning something new. I think interfacing with cloud computing services in the next step for me. I'll keep kubernetes and terraform in mind.

[sweet shore]

The days of onprem data are almost over :/ so it's worth checking out the cloud lol

[distant crow]

it's coming back the other way a little

[violet sequoia]

Well the data needs to be stored somewhere. Also small scale stuff < 8gb is easy and free for me

[distant crow]

with hybrid cloud and google's Anthos

[violet sequoia]

Hmm. ya I think there some merit to storing data on facility

especially if your a company that doesn't have a network of users around the country

[distant crow]

bit of both really. depends a lot on your workload. remember the cloud mostly makes sense because by pooling infrastructure and operational costs, and benefiting from economies of scale, it's cheaper for a cloud provider to operate these machines

the savings you get by using cloud is sliced out of the savings you get by doing that. The cloud provider eats up the other part of these savings as profit

[violet sequoia]

Also AWS made amazon profitable. There is money to be made.

[distant crow]

if your workload is big enough to justify on-prem, then it should barring a few things like economies of scale and disaster recovery, be cheaper for you to operate on-prem. But in reality, the margins are pretty tight, and also it's not a simple black-and-white case. you may benefit from having compute on-prem, and storage in public cloud, or, more likely, it makes sense to have some base-level compute capacity on-prem, and use the elasticity of the cloud to buffer out high demands

and actually that last usage is why we have hybrid cloud, and stuff like Anthos, Mesopshere, and all manner of things that helps with devops across different cloud providers and on-prem

[violet sequoia]

@distant crow It makes sense. Would a hybrid system allow you to economize your usage of cloud services?

[distant crow]

yes, you use on-prem for some baseline capacity, which is usually cheaper than cloud. but you use cloud for on-demand usage peaks.

[violet sequoia]

minimizes denial of service attacks?

-you could just ramp up cloud service during an attack?

[distant crow]

no, for companies that have a high peak-to-average workload ratio

some companies with very predictable computational resource usage is going to benefit less here. But other companies have very "peaky" workloads, where it may make sense to spin up additional processing power in the cloud to clear. Take for a random example, a company that searches the internet for deals on tickets for sporting events. They probably have some baseline usage, but high peaks near major sporting events

[violet sequoia]

That makes sense. POS systems crashing is like a CEO's worst nightmare.

[distant crow]

you have four choices:

1. just have your site/service slow to a crawl just when lots of people jump on and need to use your site/service
2. buy lots of expensive services aimed at having enough capacity for those peaks, but run at partial-capacity the rest of the year
3. put everything in the cloud, where you can spin up as much resources as you need to weather the load
4. go hybrid cloud, and use your on-prem resources until you need more capacity, and then temporarily spin up additional resources if the load is higher than your on-prem capacity

clearly 1 is not an acceptable option. 2 may be prohibitively expensive
3. is an option, it may still be quite expensive, but at least it gives you operational flexibility
4. is even better, but there's a lot more complexity in doing that. perhaps that complexity is not worth the possible cost savings

whether you go 2, 3, or 4, depends a lot on the kind of company, and the kind of workload you have. But also it depends on the complexity of operating hybrid cloud. And the interesting thing about complexity is that as software ecosystem and packages develop, that complexity comes down over time

so we're now at a point where some companies are starting to consider this option, and services like Google's Anthos (built on Istio and knative which are open source) have come out (it's general availability this year) to help.

I kind of jumped into the middle of a discussion here, I'm not suggesting that you should learn these things, just that the world of cloud computing is evolving yet again, and this decade we can see an increase of not only companies using the cloud, but also companies operating hybrid clouds, which means more work for devops, more work for engineers who are not onlyfamiliar with things like terraform and kubernetes, but also things like knative, kubeless, istio, consul, DC/OS, Mesos, and stuff like that

my prediction for this decade are: hybrid cloud, and (self-managed) serverless. which weirdly both point to the same direction: more devops

"self-managed serverless" is a weird term, but I'm referring to a situation where a company invests in the devops needed to run their own serverless infrastructure, rather than using a hosted one. the point here is that their in-house devops team can maintain an infrastructure so that their developers don't have to deal with server admin tasks. It's actually slicing that dev-devops-ops cake a little differently

another example of such a package is Kubeless. this is beneficial for companies where existing public serverless environments don't provide enough flexibility, VPC and security, or runtimes or software dependencies that they need. We operate one because we have some quite large binary packages that need to be installed into the runtime, which no cloud provide supports at the moment. so we run our own Kubeless stack inside kubernetes

[violet sequoia]

Ya, I'd like to be well rounded in my dev knowledge. I don't want to be be pigeon holed to on part of development. I started learning about computer science via mySQL so I realize how important data storage is. I'd really like to know more about information transfers over networks, it's interesting. I appreciate @distant crow this pretty in-depth explanation. Do you mind if I reach out in the future? How does a server self-manage? Do you mean that certain task are automated?

hmm so what your saying is that you interact with kubernetes directly and thus avoid dealing with table related work?

[distant crow]

when I say "self-managed" I'm making a distinction with "someone else manages it"

so, if you log into google cloud, and start using GKE, you are using a google-managed kubernetes stack

if you go into your own servers and install kubernetes, this is "self-hosted" and "self-managed"

[violet sequoia]

In that case, correct me if I'm wrong, your getting a hybrid system where you can interact with your own serve via kubernetes and google cloud's servers?

I think that's actually pretty sweet

[distant crow]

there's multiple parts to it: managing the cluster and workloads; and letting the individual workloads discover and talk to each other across the different clouds, and centralizing your monitoring across this whole thing...maybe auth and security too

[hidden kernel]

I kind of jumped into the middle of a discussion here, I'm not suggesting that you should learn these things, just that the world of cloud computing is evolving yet again, and this decade we can see an increase of not only companies using the cloud, but also companies operating hybrid clouds, which means more work for devops, more work for engineers who are not onlyfamiliar with things like terraform and kubernetes, but also things like knative, kubeless, istio, consul, DC/OS, Mesos, and stuff like that
@distant crow where can I learn more about this?

[violet sequoia]

^

there's multiple parts to it: managing the cluster and workloads; and letting the individual workloads discover and talk to each other across the different clouds, and centralizing your monitoring across this whole thing...maybe auth and security too
@distant crow so I guess this is your job?

[distant crow]

for starters make sure you're familiar with kubernetes and microservices to begin with. Then I guess look into service meshes.
as for managing stacks across hybrid cloud, I'm less familiar with this

[hidden kernel]

any pointers about where I can explore this topic from? @distant crow

[distant crow]

look into tools like mesos, and DC/OS (which is proprietary), and maybe openstack, see what they're doing to help manage things

[hidden kernel]

hm okay

thank you

[distant crow]

oh, and Anthos

[little trellis]

@distant crow Have you used Anthos yet?

[distant crow]

no, the system requirements for it are huge, you basically need a whole rack. we're not at that scale

[little trellis]

Yeah, that makes sense. It seems to be a smart move as a whole. Embracing hybrid cloud should help carve out more of the market.

[distant crow]

https://cloud.google.com/anthos/gke/docs/on-prem/how-to/cpu-ram-storage

yeah, I think for larger companies with their on-prem racks, it makes sense. We don't even have enough machines to fill a single rack, let alon have 180CPUs, and 475GB of RAM

this is their example total requirements. Granted, it's an example, but you can see what kind of size they expect you to have:

[neon dagger]

hi all, i have two python automation engineer roles in my team. can i post the link?

openings*

[little trellis]

Seems like a fair enough mark though. Anywhere smaller it probably makes sense to go full on-prem or full cloud.

[distant crow]

no, this channel is not for recruitment

[neon dagger]

ah sorry

is there a channel for it?

[distant crow]

see channel description up top

[neon dagger]

ah yeah lol

RTFM

in that case, how is the python work going during the pandemic?

busier?

[little trellis]

I think it's very company specific. Some companies are pushing heavily into the development area right now in order to try and compensate for the loss of revenue channels elsewhere. Others are just trying to get their bearings straight and are not so focused.

How about for you team/company?

[neon dagger]

yeah we're ramping up but it's not related to covid, it's because they're keen to get the first iteration over the line

[little trellis]

I see, so preparing for launch?

[neon dagger]

yeah, they're desperate for launch. but i keep telling them that throwing more people at me isn't going to make it happen

they never listen though

what we need is more hardware to run our automation on.

[little trellis]

Yeah, I can't imagine having to onboard people will help push things through faster right now.

Working in the cloud or on prem?

[neon dagger]

on prem

but we have remote access so wfh

how about you?

[little trellis]

Haha yeah I was going to ask how that's been with remote work. Didn't know how far along you all were with setting up the network and such for remote access.

[neon dagger]

yeah got remote access, it's irratating when i have to email someone onsite to fat finger a server for me because i've killed it

with my shit code haha

[little trellis]

I just moved over from a consulting company to a large sports entertainment firm a few weeks ago. They're really focused on improving their infrastructure and building cool new experiences so it's been fun so far.

[neon dagger]

but yeah, more people i have in my team the less tech work i do which i'm not fond of. i'd much rather be coding all day.

what large consulting co?

[little trellis]

Consulting co was smaller. Adswerve. A solid company though that does some interesting data science and data engineering work in GCP.

[neon dagger]

oh sorry, completely missread that

[little trellis]

And yeah, I can't imagine that doesn't slow things down quite a good deal haha

[neon dagger]

so the sports co looking to use some automation?

[violet sequoia]

@distant crow Damn [ cpu capacity ] you thic! 🤪 🔥

[little trellis]

That what your startup does?

[neon dagger]

whos startup?

[little trellis]

Yours, you spoke about automation

[neon dagger]

yeah but not for a starup, i work for UK gov

but yeah're all about automation.

replacing the engineers with code

infra engineers

[little trellis]

Oh that's a twist haha. Would have never expected that

[neon dagger]

yeah it's a big project

you from the UK too?

[little trellis]

I'm in the US, New York

[neon dagger]

ah ok cool

[little trellis]

Interesting that the UK Gov is into projects like that

[neon dagger]

hello from across the pond then!

why do you say that?

[little trellis]

Just an unexpected focus

And hello!

[neon dagger]

🙂

i guess in the long run it saves a ton of money. My automation can build infra in < 1 day that it takes 3 engineers 2 weeks to do

it's a no brainer for them

[little trellis]

Sounds like a pretty interesting project. I can imagine it is very relevant for them. They selling the solution to the private sector as well?

[neon dagger]

hell no

[little trellis]

Haha I can't say I blame them.

[neon dagger]

ok, thanks for the chat. i g2g

[little trellis]

Best of luck

[distant crow]

for what it's worth. UK's online gov infrastructure is pretty good these days. tax returns and DVLA stuff are super easy to do

[violet sequoia]

@neon dagger What's the deal with the change in financial filing law? If I understand it correctly, all british companies need to do now is certify corrections to there financial statements instead submitting annual reports.

[neon dagger]

@violet sequoia ummm no idea!

[neon dagger]

haha

think it will be going on for a while!

[solid berry]

Anyone knows if you aren't interested in programming or coding in general how

do you get yourself hooked to it

am 20 years old, rn i can't get into universities yet, am going to IT for the $ it has

[normal forge]

depends what your interests are - for me I've always loved math/physics/more challenging problems so I'm mostly doing data sci
I could never get into something like web dev tho

[solid berry]

i've always been mediocre at math

liked it but never excelled at it

[mortal wedge]

Then you probably don't want to become an algorithm engineer or do AI/machine learning

[normal forge]

^^

[mortal wedge]

But there's so much that can be done in programming, not everything requires high level of math. I think most programming requires boolean logic at best

[solid berry]

Can give me any examples of use of programming/coding with that level of math

[normal forge]

But that can be developed

[solid berry]

or logic

[normal forge]

look into the math behind nn's

[solid berry]

nn's?

[normal forge]

neural networks

or even the math behind quantum computing

[solid berry]

yeah nah XD

i cannot ever compete at that level

its really fascinating bubble

and levle on its own but not achievable for my mindset

[normal forge]

fair enough 😛
Idk I'd suggest looking at stuff you're interested in (after gaining some basic skills/knowledge), programming is a massive field

[solid berry]

it is

but thats the reason am so lost and somewhat my confusion/lost understanding of it is whats demotivating me

its so massive, that if i do learn to program and for example learn python thoroughly i wouldnt know

what to work as

"where am i gonna input my knowledge?"

[normal forge]

well what interests you?

[solid berry]

interms of Computing in general..

lmao i can't give straight thought or idea

[normal forge]

or just in general

outside of computing

[solid berry]

er, outside of hobbies i've always loved how things behave, creatures behave, observing and learning yknow?

how creatures interact with each other and through that u learn more about it and document it

like it always fascinates me seeing other people interact and react different ways to situation

aswell as what goes through their mind

[normal forge]

I'm %100 not trying to draw you away from programming, but that sounds more like sociology to me

[solid berry]

it is

[normal forge]

Then again I believe more that you should go after what you enjoy, not the money

[solid berry]

but sociology as career isn't as comfortable and profitable

[mortal wedge]

Maybe try to find where sociology and programming overlap?

[solid berry]

Yeah but my financial position and where i come from (where i come from is corrupted country in constant wars so)

[wind citrus]

@solid berry Pick something you want to build, anything. Then try to build it. At the beginning you will need to learn a lot of the basics, but only learn what you need to for building the thing you are focused on. Keep learning and building till you have something working. My suggestion would be to start simple. Then start this process over and just keep building.

[solid berry]

doesnt help

Maybe try to find where sociology and programming overlap?
@mortal wedge good point

[mortal wedge]

For example, I'm really into neuroscience. So I'm developing algorithms that help process people's brainwaves.

[solid berry]

@solid berry Pick something you want to build, anything. Then try to build it. At the beginning you will need to learn a lot of the basics, but only learn what you need to for building the thing you are focused on. Keep learning and building till you have something working. My suggestion would be to start simple. Then start this process over and just keep building.
@wind citrus i tried that for over month, but it probably isnt enough and i should be more thorough with it

yeah @mortal wedge i get what you mean

@solid berry Pick something you want to build, anything. Then try to build it. At the beginning you will need to learn a lot of the basics, but only learn what you need to for building the thing you are focused on. Keep learning and building till you have something working. My suggestion would be to start simple. Then start this process over and just keep building.
@wind citrus also my mind always felt lost and uneasy with studying it cause i would never see result of it, it all comes to "where am i gonna input my knowledge in if i study this all?" kind of thinking

[mortal wedge]

It's hard for me to think of fields that wouldn't benefit from some kind of coding

[normal forge]

^Idk I've found programming in general is super useful

[mortal wedge]

Thankfully python is a generalist language, it can be applied to pretty much anything

[solid berry]

true

thats why ive followed through with python

[mortal wedge]

sometimes it shouldn't, but it can

[solid berry]

and confident with it as starting language

sociology and programming huh

[normal forge]

I've actually got a copypasta that kinda illustrates lloydshady's point

"I usually recommend this to beginners (this is all heavily my opinion)- you don't need a course at all, the easiest way to learn is to pick a project - whether it be something you want or a simple project - and try to make it as flexible as possible. By flexible I mean think ahead: make it as easy as possible to add a new feature or try to get rid of any limits on your project. At the same time, try to think of EVERY possible way a user can break your code and make sure they can't"

This helped me soooo much when I first started, and continues to help

even if you don't peruse programming as a career, it's an amazing life skill to have

[solid berry]

Huh

[mortal wedge]

Algorithmic approaches are a great life skill, too. Like when you have a complex problem, break it up into tiny more conquerable goals

Start with a simple case of your problem, build off of that, etc.

[solid berry]

interesting

is there project in which Type A has certain set of approach towards things confronts Type B, which has its own approach, lets say in puzzle and you develop them both from how much they flaw? idk how to put it more expressively

or lets say job

like u made anti virus program and you developed hack and you see how the hack would try to get through the anti virus

game coding was always fun to see for me btw but as career it does really poorly with the industries rn

[normal forge]

like u made anti virus program and you developed hack and you see how the hack would try to get through the anti virus
have a look at pentesting

[marble linden]

i used to do a bit of Lua but my dad "made" me do python he said Lua was garbage compared to it and no one really use's it

[normal forge]

Lua's - from what I've seen - is mostly used for modding/whatever you want to call it, games

[marble linden]

i used it for roblox xD

[normal forge]

^ exactly

[marble linden]

i can do so much more with python then garbage roblox lua

[normal forge]

idk I think the game dev field is a bit too saturated, if you want to get in, you almost have to either reinvent the wheel, or get in at a AAA level

[marble linden]

lol ive been working on a script for like a week

[solid berry]

idk I think the game dev field is a bit too saturated, if you want to get in, you almost have to either reinvent the wheel, or get in at a AAA level
@normal forge 100% true

high demand low supply

[normal forge]

other way around

[white karma]

^

[marble linden]

you guys sound a lot older than me talking those big words XD
just started my freshmen year in highschool

[solid berry]

everyone goes by their own pace trust me

as long as you do progress and work ahead

[marble linden]

yea i was learning at a fast pace but school started and i havnt got time to work on my project

im naturally a A+ student

[solid berry]

have a look at pentesting
@normal forge looked it up

is it coding/programming or generally networking

[marble linden]

it never was too hard for me I also have 10/10 memory i hear something once and can remember it to this day

[normal forge]

is it coding/programming or generally networking
both

[solid berry]

interesting

[marble linden]

my dads boss is probably gonna hire me for a under the table job for stuff in blender which supports python programming

[solid berry]

go at it then, @normal forge well disregarding my point do you have project i can work on in algorithmic approach

what projects did you do in past?

[normal forge]

Not at the moment no, I'll let you know if I come up with an amazing idea

[solid berry]

not an overrly complex tho LOL

[normal forge]

I did/ am currently working on a full blown calculator

It was/is actually my first project

that paragraph I posted earlier?

[solid berry]

yup?

[normal forge]

I applied it to the project

so instead of have 'what's your operator?, what's your first number, etc, etc'

I found out about the shunting-yard algorithm

[solid berry]

damn

[normal forge]

altho I actually tried to implement pedmas into it

[solid berry]

should be obligatory implementation no?

[normal forge]

not for the 'starter' projects no

[solid berry]

true

[normal forge]

most of them will limit the operations/# of values

I didn't want that

[solid berry]

thats cool way of approaching it ngl

[normal forge]

but I'm currently trying to implement a ui + some formulas/equations that'll be useful for uni

[solid berry]

though talking with inexperience LOL but generally understanding the approach and broad idea

[normal forge]

that's the point of my paragraph tho

[solid berry]

yup

[normal forge]

try to make your program as limitless as possible

you'll learn a lot more imo

[solid berry]

will do

[normal forge]

• understanding how people are mean and will try to break it helps 😛

[solid berry]

but rn finding the project i have to assemble and knowing how to assemble

• understanding how people are mean and will try to break it helps 😛
  @normal forge expect the worst of worst situations to happen and prepare for it lmao

[normal forge]

exactllly

[solid berry]

but yeah, gotta find the "ship" or project so and know how to handle building and developing it properly then finding flaws and

challenge it later on

as am still beginner in python

[normal forge]

you heard of fizzbuzz?

[solid berry]

nope

amam look it up

[normal forge]

it's super simple logically

[regal thistle]

Hello, How are you all?

[normal forge]

but bringing that approach to it allows you to learn a lot more

Howdy

[regal thistle]

Opinions? Anybody?

Lol

[normal forge]

#ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval try asking in there or one of the other off topic channels

[solid berry]

also to the pinned reddit message, about developer learning his way through

you think thats viable option

https://www.reddit.com/r/learnpython/comments/ctkypf/im_100_self_taught_landed_my_first_job_my/

[normal forge]

Ya %100 if you can manage it

a lot of bigger companies (ei google) have started hiring more self-taught programmers

[solid berry]

Wow

[little trellis]

Depends on if you learn best reading books

[solid berry]

and ere i thought they focus more on college graduates

[regal thistle]

I like how many ppl are in this server and yet there are only 9 admin's XD

[solid berry]

that i do

Depends on if you learn best reading books
@little trellis

[normal forge]

books aren't for everyone

[solid berry]

i applied for course online and went for week about it

videos

[normal forge]

this is what I mean tho with the fizzbuzz

[solid berry]

damn i couldnt even follow through at all

[little trellis]

Yeah googles new courses seem interesting. Seems like a cool move to count those as college equivalent internally

[normal forge]

ya idk I've never taken any courses/read any beginner books

[solid berry]

well its the only given option for me as uni isnt anywhere near me LOL

[little trellis]

Books are always good. Important to spend the time applying then though obviously

[normal forge]

personally imo there's enough great free information out there to easily learn

[solid berry]

there is

its all about dedication

in the end ig

[normal forge]

ya definitly

[solid berry]

Books are always good. Important to spend the time applying then though obviously
@little trellis true

[little trellis]

One central benefit to traditional education channels is structure. It’s easy to get lost and not know the path to take with all the resources out there

[normal forge]

Actually a lot of people that come out of a cs degree, don't necessarily know how to program in the real world

[little trellis]

Finding the path that works for you is half the battle.

[solid berry]

Actually a lot of people that come out of a cs degree, don't necessarily know how to program in the real world
@normal forge much like every other uni graduates lol

my mom's encouraging me into uni in near future when its affordable for me but my dad's urging me into self taught knowledge and experience

[normal forge]

idk I'm currently planning on doing both

to get the theoretical + the applicable skills

[solid berry]

thats best way through

[normal forge]

imo ya

[solid berry]

gotta work with what i have meanwhile

gonna do the algorithmic approach+ reddit post

learn make project learn it through

and fuzzbuzz seems rather..

confusing

XD

[normal forge]

it's actually really simple

if you can divide a number by 3, print fizz - if 5, print buzz - if 3 and 5 print both

[solid berry]

glorified if and loops(?)

[normal forge]

basically ya, that's why it's a more infamous beginner project

you could probably do it in 1 line

[solid berry]

amma check it through then, gotta apply my knowledge somewhere

thats good point to know

[normal forge]

real trick is making it with custom values/names/ranges

[little trellis]

One ugly line haha.

[solid berry]

hey as long as it gets the job done

LOL

real trick is making it with custom values/names/ranges
@normal forge theres trick to everything thats where skill comes from

but yeah gotta walk before i run

[normal forge]

👍

[solid berry]

time for bed for me man, gn bro

appreciated help

from everyone here <33

[little trellis]

Best of luck with your projects

[normal forge]

^^^

[pseudo oriole]

should I take some comp sci classes in college to potentially switch from a pre-med track... I am interested in comp sci but have no programming knowledge and don't want my GPA to drop

[little trellis]

Do you have open elective slots?

[pseudo oriole]

yes

[little trellis]

Maybe fill one of those with a beginner cs class and see how you like it? You could see if they have something data focused which could be relevant to your pre-med track for research

Also, nothing ever stopping you from picking up an online course and trying some stuff out before dedicating any money towards it.

[pseudo oriole]

ya I have been working towards learning python right now and sort of enjoy learning it

and python can be used in research as well

might get like a coursera course in computational r or python

[little trellis]

Very cool. All sounds like good ideas. What about CS is interesting you?

[pseudo oriole]

just the ability to build new application and how coding has now become such an important skill and can be used in any scenario

[little trellis]

Yes for sure. Sounds like good motivation

[vapid jay]

ez money

[vapid jay]

Guys what is INFORMATICS PRACTICES subject ?

[true harness]

probably about best practices in informatics

[vapid jay]

What are the careers options after taking INFORMATICS PRACTICES ?

[true harness]

probably something in informatics

your counselor can probably explain this better

or maybe the professor teaching the course

[sharp berry]

I've been really enjoying web scraping/manipulation lately (with selenium).

Are there jobs that need you to do that stuff? I found none while browsing offers.

Or is creating a currency trading bot my only hope?

[keen lark]

I'm a CS undergrad studying in my 3rd year at BITS Pilani, India.
I want to score some off campus intern in ML/DL.
I'd prefer to do an intern abroad (which might be WFH, idc)
How do I go about it? Please help.

[green plank]

Hello, hello, I need your opinions about DevOps and its long-term consequences/implications on the software development cycles.
This survey takes place as part of a professional thesis in order to obtain my master's degree. (Only 4min)
https://forms.office.com/Pages/ResponsePage.aspx?id=IOQMGVexrkS8L2lWO6paO0Zl8kzK9dxKkUERK_qPgMBUQkpCRkRMTExTVzhaSVEyVDJIU0pYNFE5Si4u

[vast shoal]

@green plank Do you mind if I ask questions about some of the survey questions?

[green plank]

no, you can, obv 😄

[vast shoal]

I am familiar with the term "DevOps", but I've never heard of "the DevOps approach". It sounds like you mean something specific, but I don't know what that is, so unfortunately I can't answer yes to whether we apply "the DevOps approach".

Even if we do.

So it's a bit confusing.

So, for one thing, I wonder what you're referring to, and I guess I'm also suggesting that you consider clarifying the question.

[green plank]

@vast shoal The DevOps approach is more generic than the tools and specifically CI/CD tools. It is also the organisational aspect : The way to implement Devops in a compagny : the way to brake the wall between ops and dev teams.

[vast shoal]

I think it's hard to give a binary answer to that question. In some respects we do, in others we probably don't.

And I think that's probably true for most organizations.

So it might be a bit misleading if you force the respondent to give a yes or no answer.

[green plank]

I see what you mean, and I'm aware of that, I wanted to force a binary response here. The "Other" option is available for the next questions in order to target specific notions
If I let the question opened here, im affraid that everyone will say "other" and explain his specific case.

But I'have open this question, I will see

[vast shoal]

I think you might end up with a lot of "I don't know" instead.

Which I guess is worse than Other

[harsh vault]

Do u think that good rank on eulers problem can be worthy for a job ?

[true harness]

that can't be the only thing you've done

[vast shoal]

Maybe it would be a good thing if the hiring manager happened to be familiar with project euler. Otherwise it would probably count for nothing, I suspect.

[little trellis]

It matters more what you learned from it and applied elsewhere than what you did.

[tepid cape]

What exactly does a data analyst job entail?

And what’s the difference between that and a data engineer

[frosty cove]

To me data analyst would be making reports and deriving metrics, stats from the data. Data engineering would probably be the infra shoveling the data around, ETL, etc. @tepid cape . Data analysts sort of being the "customers" of the system that data engineer would build

[tepid cape]

@frosty cove so in grad school I studied Python, R and SQL. Would that allow me to become a data engineer?

[frosty cove]

Python and SQL for the engineering part. But you could also use Python SQL and R for analysis too.

They're just tools to help you get the job done. All 3 have many possible use cases

[tepid cape]

Yeah most of my classmates have gotten work as a data analyst but they mainly use excel and tableu, I wanna be more of a developer, I really like python. @frosty cove

[peak patrol]

Hello everyone .I learn data analytics but my computer so weak .I can't write machine learning code and I can't apply advance code .Because my computer speed is 1.8 ghz and it is not enough .Can someone help me .I don't have enough money .I am a student .Yeah i know my english sucks ☹️

[tepid cape]

@peak patrol what do you need help with?

[peak patrol]

for notebook(or pc) .This is a very arrogant request .If I keep using this computer, the computer will burn.really:(.then i can't do anything😕

ggplot(csv_2015, aes(x=Happiness.Score)) +
geom_histogram(binwidth=0.5, aes(fill=Region), colour="Black") +
facet_grid(Region~.,scales="free") +
xlab("Happiness Score") +
ylab("") +
ggtitle("Happiness scores by Regions") +
theme(plot.title = element_text(hjust = 0.5)) this code works after two hours

[e-mail] -if someone want to help me .Please write

[crude crown]

can't you buy a second hand computer to have more "local" horsepower?

[true harness]

tape two pi's together and you'll have twice your compute power

[peak patrol]

i earn 50 $ in month(.i cant buy(

[vapid jay]

What country are you from?

[peak patrol]

Azerbaijan

[vapid jay]

Learn a lower level language. Maybe that will actually run on your computer

[crude crown]

Can't your university provide some hardware? Or any kind of benevolent benefactor?

[peak patrol]

i learn power bi and tableau .But companies search r or python developer

[crude crown]

You'll need to be like Macgyver and find someway to get more horsepower

[peak patrol]

my computer third hand macbook air /. this computer look so cool in otherside /But it is not useful for data scientist😂 .i bought this computer with my six month grand (200$)

[vapid jay]

six months????

[crude crown]

macbooks are really expensive, you shouldn't be buying those with your budget... Go for windows laptops and install a Linux distro and work on that

[vapid jay]

I have a solution for you taleh. I was reading about this Macedonian guy who started pushing out fake news stories during the 2016 US election and he made enough money to buy a ps4. You should do the same for the 2020 election.

[crude crown]

meh, we have GPT-3 for that now.

[surreal flint]

Ok I haven't read everything but woah stop

Don't go around pushing out fake news

[peak patrol]

btw i don't work anywhere because i have two optian 1. I work servant or something and earn 150$ 9 to six 2. I learn a lot of things for create difference

[crude crown]

But seriously Taleh, look into my suggestion. Look for second/third hand Windows laptops and use those

[peak patrol]

@crude crown so expansive man .Second hand 16 gb computer price is 705$

[wispy cape]

If you want cheap refurbished laptops, look into older thinkpads

If you're smart you can have a 8gb machine with an older i5 for $200

[peak patrol]

someone have two hand notebook ?

second*

or shird

third

[true harness]

thinkpads last forever

[vapid jay]

how much do they cost in local .az shops ?

i was trying to look but I cant pass the captcha

[peak patrol]

1699 azn to 1000 usd

it is so cheap first hand computer in teh market

the*

this computer 500 $ in second hand market

[wispy cape]

Do not get L series

Look into T or X series

Ideally <= N30

The x220 and T420 are dead cheap for example

I got mine for $180

[peak patrol]

can you send link ?

we have poor computer market in Azerbaijan/Yes have strong and middle power computer but so expansive .And i can't find thinkpad /what it is ?

[wispy cape]

It's a serie of laptop from Lenovo, I got mine on ebay, I guess I'm not sure if it's available where you are...

[peak patrol]

ouuuu i find

[vapid jay]

how much ram did you want?

[peak patrol]

maybe 16 gb

I need speed ,power

[vapid jay]

because all computers with 16 gb start at 800 USD at least

on the shop.az website

[peak patrol]

my mentor said if you write xgboost i wait 3-2 hours with 32 gb ram

you*

[wispy cape]

I'll be completely honest, ml is generally not very budget friendly in general

If you're just starting out, I suggest you try out tools like Google colab

[peak patrol]

i learn ml for prdictive modelling

btw that is highly sought after and essential skill

anyone hear my voice when i open mycrophone?

[wispy cape]

I'm not denying that, I'm just saying you should probably lower your standards as you said yourself your current machine can barely run anything, it wouldn't be very realistic to jump to a good config if you're on a very tight budget

[white river]

Use Google Collab in the meantime

[peak patrol]

@wispy cape that is true (

[wispy cape]

If you have a budget of about $250,thinpads x220, x230, t420, t430 are as good as it gets

Less than that and it's getting real hard to get a decent computer even for basic interactions

Let alone training ML models

We should probably move to off-topic btw, as this isn't related to careers

[peak patrol]

@wispy cape sorry.Thanks everyone for help and patience 🙏

[tepid cape]

@peak patrol why can’t you use cloud computing?

You can get a lot of free credits for cloud computing

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[weary crag]

got a question dunno if i am right here :D

so i have to do a students internship (11th grade) and currently thinking about sth in the field of programming . Can you recommend doing that without having too great programming knowledge? Or does that only make sense for ppl that are already studying IT.

[neon moat]

Just get stuck in, if you are naturally interested in IT then why are you asking about whether you need knowledge, just start learning

[shadow moss]

IT requires programming as well

[weary crag]

Just get stuck in, if you are naturally interested in IT then why are you asking about whether you need knowledge, just start learning
@neon moat
yea i am learining day by day 😄 i more likeley asked if an internship only makes sense when you already have a good knowledge... you know what i mean?

[shadow moss]

internships are always good

if they are hiring at HS, they know what they are getting

[vapid jay]

Hi, who is here?

Is right to discuss to get real job in this channel ?

[orchid thorn]

yes

[vapid jay]

hahaha. @orchid thorn see you again.

you sent me to here and you accept me.@orchid thorn 😆

[orchid thorn]

[vapid jay]

we can continue here.@orchid thorn

[covert mountain]

Where do I find internships online? It's also fine if it doesn't pay me.

[opal perch]

depends on the country

[tame marsh]

Hello! i just started python a few days ago and i had a few questions regarding jobs and careers

I live in Uzbekistan, you see and we dont really have any demand for developers here

so i was wondering if you guys had any tips.

[opal perch]

just ask your question mate

[true harness]

he literally, asked for tips

[tame marsh]

How do i go about getting a job?

im 20 years old the quarantine is financially destroying us. How much experience would i need to land a job with JUST python. freelance, part-time full time it doesnt matter.

im sorry if its a stupid question.

really new to programming, discord and all.

[vapid jay]

hi

[opal perch]

Well, there'd a lot to this.

Job market is super strained right now, the only people really getting jobs are people that are lucky or really experienced developers. And in freelance, its even harder because suddenly people lost their normal job and learnt how to program during these rona times, and are trying to gwt any jobs. Also reputation is the biggest thing, hard to get any freelancr work.

To get any developer job right now, you'd have to be pretty experienced, and if you dont have a degree its even harder.

[tame marsh]

Thats pretty bad for everyone.

Well nevermind the job. i guess i still have a lot to learn.

What would you say is the easiest department to get a job in using python?
by department i mean like game dev or software development or data science.

it feels like i dove headfirst into an ocean but dont know which island to swim to.

dont know where to start. again sorry if thsi is the wrong channel.

[opal perch]

probably not game dev, you probably wont get away with just python. Backend web programming will probably be easier than data science.

[tame marsh]

I use udemy but are there any other resources you could point me towards?

[gilded valley]

!resources has lots of good links

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[tame marsh]

Thanks!

[vast shoal]

@tame marsh Web development is probably the biggest/easiest area

@tame marsh Aside from the above, there is this Reddit post by @neon moat detailing his journey from zero experience to landing his first job: https://www.reddit.com/r/learnpython/comments/ctkypf/im_100_self_taught_landed_my_first_job_my/ This was obviously not during the pandemic, but it might still be a good guideline for things to study.

I think he was in the UK too, so it's not the same as Uzbekistan, but again, you can treat it more as a study guide.

[slim bane]

Hi, I'm not sure if this is a right question for # careers, if not let me know ^^ How do everyone keep sane and healthy staring at computer screen all day? How do you being healthy programming all day? I'm 3rd year Compsi/A.I. track and recently I just feel so tired, maybe burnt out that even sitting down to open my laptop already seems too much. Ahuhu like I love what Im doing, but if health is priority, I start to feel as if my career choice were problematic

[opal perch]

try and take breaks dude, or do stretches throughout the day, or maybe even start exercising if you're not already.

[lavish geyser]

hitting the gym is a great way

[true harness]

healthy diet too

[vast shoal]

@slim bane I generally (not right now due to COVID-19) bike to and from work every day. That helps with tiredness quite a bit. Taking regular breaks throughout the day to stretch is also a good idea. Some kind of regular exercise and a healthy diet is important as well.

@slim bane Working on a laptop is probably not ideal, though. Your neck position is likely not ergonomic. You should make sure that you sit in a good (and properly configured) office chair and that the top part of your screen is more or less level with your eyes.

I mean, it's fine for short stints, but the setup you use on a daily basis should not be just a laptop (unless you connect it to an external monitor, or use some kind of special laptop fixture).

It might be difficult to ensure, but a regular sleep schedule of 7-9 hours every night can also be like night and day in terms of tiredness. If you're not getting that right now, it's something you should work on.

[opal perch]

Would be helpful if the person replied so we could know what they're already doing/trying.

[slim bane]

Thank so much, guys & gals, I literally immediately stood up and went for one hour run to relieve all of the unused energy and it works the magic

Before Covid, I walk to work & school and have sport club, but since Covid I guess I have forgoten to move

My diet is okay-ish, I guess, I'm vegetarian. But never thought of intermittent stretch and a better work setup. Thank so much for the advice.

I'll try the stretch out tmr. Could you share some more insights into an ideal work setup maybe?

[opal perch]

Not a nutritionist or know your full diet, but ensure you're getting all your nutrients. I just know some vegetarians who technically eat healthy but stil ldon't fulfill there nutritional requirements.

[slim bane]

Yes you're right 😟 I can forget to eat sometime

Thank for the pic!

[distant crow]

I'd like to just represent the standing desk crowd, it's not a bad option, and in my opinion definitely better than sitting all day

[crude crown]

standing all day isn't good for you either

The general guideline is not to stay in the same positions for longs periods of time

use pomodoros, take into account the 20-20-20 rule, etc.

but really folks, watch out for ergonomics.

[distant crow]

yep, my desk is motorized, so I go up and down

every time I step away from my desk, I raise it to standing height so when I get back I stand for a while, then at some point I want to sit down, and lower it

However, I don't think standing all day for work is a problem either. at my previous workplace I got a fixed standing desk, and so I was full-time standing while working. But usually this only a few hours of the day, because lunchtimes, and any meeting in a meeting room, and of course at least one bathroom trip a day, are done sitting. So I'd probably get a good 5 or 6 hours standing, which is a nice amount I feel

[mortal wedge]

I found that I naturally gravitated to spend less and less of my free time in front of a computer.

[inner wren]

@keen spruce Per Rule 6, your invite link has been removed. If you believe this was a mistake, please let staff know!

Our server rules can be found here: https://pythondiscord.com/pages/rules

[vapid jay]

Hello everyone. I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this but I am looking for a topic to do my masters thesis. I am interested in autonomous robotics however I am not able to narrow down the specific topic that I would like work on. I would like you guys to suggest some topics that are currently being explored/researched upon in the industry (or are "hot" in the research fields) and could possibly be eligible for funding from the university.

[stone turret]

@radiant moon I just want to tag you because seems you've gone what I've gone through and come out the other side well. I dropped out of Uni a couple of years ago and due to the complexities of the UK system, can't get funding to go back, so been working in a field completely unrelated to programming. I was wondering how you approached finding a job in programming after 'dropping out'?

[brittle nacelle]

^I have some thoughts too if you want. I got my first industry coding job about six months ago after five years of mainly doing sex work.

[radiant moon]

so I farted around aimlessly for a while, and eventually went "back to school", except it was -- what they call it here in the US -- a "community college". Not quite a trade school, but cheap. Got into a "work-study" thing that got me an internship, and basically moved up the ladder from there

[stone turret]

^I have some thoughts too if you want. I got my first industry coding job about six months ago after five years of mainly doing sex work.
@brittle nacelle Of course, that's amazing. The more the better, thanks

[fervent hamlet]

I also dropped out of uni but i could go back in with full student finance support, what happened in your case?

[stone turret]

so I farted around aimlessly for a while, and eventually went "back to school", except it was -- what they call it here in the US -- a "community college". Not quite a trade school, but cheap. Got into a "work-study" thing that got me an internship, and basically moved up the ladder from there
Ah ok. I could see if there's anything equivalent here in the UK. I considered Apprenticeships as well, however I need to be making a wage to keep paying rent etc. so I'm wondering how viable it is to aim for Junior Dev

I also dropped out of uni but i could go back in with full student finance support, what happened in your case?
@fervent hamlet I did two years, failed second year. That's already 1 year unfunded now. Then I went to another uni for a month until I was made aware that unfunded year is always the 1st year, so I had do drop out of there. And poof, another year gone. Tuition loan formula is years funded = total years of course - years done + 1

[radiant moon]

I had the advantage of living "at home" (i.e., with my parents) while I was doing this

[brittle nacelle]

I'd say don't focus on skills, or at least specific skills, too much. Like hack away at stuff and develop your problem solving, but you'll probably have to learn a ton of specific things at whatever your job is, so it's really more about the metaskills.

But network as much as you can. (Although that might be hard right now.) Hit up tech (virtual) events, professional or personal, hackathons, lectures, tech/career fairs. Let people know you're looking but don't make a big deal out of it. So much of the job hunt these days is just having someone inside to pass along your resume, even if they're not really pushing or vouching for you.

I got asked a lot for a github, so probably update one of those regularly. I'm skittish about privacy things and don't really like the idea of maintaining a public portfolio for its own sake. Ultimately it didn't hold me back from getting a job at a big video game company, but I could tell some places deprioritize people who don't have one.

[stone turret]

I had the advantage of living "at home" (i.e., with my parents) while I was doing this
@radiant moon I might also have that option, but my parents are very much discouraging it. Thank you for divulging

[brittle nacelle]

I had no real idea getting into it how I'd compare to other programmers but honestly it's just about good/consistent form, dogged problem-solving, and reading the goddamned docs (or more often, the underlying source code because sometimes the docs are paper thin).

[fervent hamlet]

I did two years in uni for EEE, two first years and failed them both, then I did 3 years CompSci at another uni and it was fully covered by the loan

[stone turret]

I'd say don't focus on skills, or at least specific skills, too much. Like hack away at stuff and develop your problem solving, but you'll probably have to learn a ton of specific things at whatever your job is, so it's really more about the metaskills.

But network as much as you can. (Although that might be hard right now.) Hit up tech (virtual) events, professional or personal, hackathons, lectures, tech/career fairs. Let people know you're looking but don't make a big deal out of it. So much of the job hunt these days is just having someone inside to pass along your resume, even if they're not really pushing or vouching for you.

I got asked a lot for a github, so probably update one of those regularly. I'm skittish about privacy things and don't really like the idea of maintaining a public portfolio for its own sake. Ultimately it didn't hold me back from getting a job at a big video game company, but I could tell some places deprioritize people who don't have one.
@brittle nacelle I have heard it's all about networking many times. Those are great suggestions. I'm just worried about time, however I'm going to look into those sorts of events. I've made a GitHub and I think I need to clean it up

I had no real idea getting into it how I'd compare to other programmers but honestly it's just about good/consistent form, dogged problem-solving, and reading the goddamned docs (or more often, the underlying source code because sometimes the docs are paper thin).
@brittle nacelle How do you go about explaining that you're good at these things on your CV, when you don't have the qualifications to back it up?

[brittle nacelle]

@stone turret I'd look into career/employment services near you too, they can often help direct you toward the best resource for finding potential employers.

[stone turret]

I did two years in uni for EEE, two first years and failed them both, then I did 3 years CompSci at another uni and it was fully covered by the loan
@fervent hamlet I don't know how that works, but they made my situation clear to me :/

[fervent hamlet]

You gotta learn to sell yourself, at least until a technical interview

@stone turret my loan was thriugh student finance uk, i took it out on the first degree which was 4 years (MEng) and it covered a total of 5 years in uni, 4 (for the degree) + 1 extra
I used it all exactly

[stone turret]

@stone turret I'd look into career/employment services near you too, they can often help direct you toward the best resource for finding potential employers.
@brittle nacelle I'll have a look into it. Are you also in the UK?

[brittle nacelle]

For interviewing, I think a big part of it is honestly talking about what you've done and are able to do. I've been dabbling in programming for years so I talked about that. I talked about tutoring people in Python (through Python Tutor, RIP). Also be able to talk about your problem-solving approach, how you would gather info and design a solution.

[stone turret]

For interviewing, I think a big part of it is honestly talking about what you've done and are able to do. I've been dabbling in programming for years so I talked about that. I talked about tutoring people in Python (through Python Tutor, RIP). Also be able to talk about your problem-solving approach, how you would gather info and design a solution.
@brittle nacelle I'm mostly concerned about CV, because I think verbally I can convince people

@fervent hamlet I'll take another look at the system, but at this point my uni chances are really screwed

[fervent hamlet]

Any uni would do, it can only help

[stone turret]

To be more specific, the second course I tried was Maths at uni of Surrey. Once I found out my predicament, I spoke to the counsellors many times, to no avail. So I'm pretty beaten in that respect

1st one was a 3 yr course and I dropped out 2nd year

I don't have much trust in the uni system anymore in general

[fervent hamlet]

There are better things than university yea

But there are also worse things

A degree helps

I dropped out of UCL and wasted 2 years of my life

But doing a masters now so i guess its not impossible to recover from dropping out

[stone turret]

Just stopped chasing uni really. But that is pretty inspiring

[fervent hamlet]

Haha, masters was a bad idea with hindsight

Inexperienced graduate, i have no chance in this economy

[stone turret]

I'm a bit biased but I think generally uni sucks, except for the social life 😛

[wispy cape]

I'm in a similar situation, I wasted 3 years in a major that wasn't for me, dropped out, but managed to move to CS in a different university in a way that I only "wasted" one year

[potent cargo]

is there a good rule of thumb to know if you are ready for a job or notg?

[fervent hamlet]

If youre hired, youre ready for it

[stone turret]

I'm in a similar situation, I wasted 3 years in a major that wasn't for me, dropped out, but managed to move to CS in a different university in a way that I only "wasted" one year
did you get straight into 3rd year elsewhere or something?

[wispy cape]

Yeah

[potent cargo]

well, the big issue is, I want to have a decent idea of if i'm even ready to begin applying for jobs

[stone turret]

I looked into that too, but I could only carry on with Physics, and even then 'the course structures were too different'

[fervent hamlet]

I dont think theres any sort of reliable metric for that @potent cargo

You should start applying and see how it goes

Have everything you need ready and then give literally everyone a copy of your cv

[mortal wedge]

If you don't get any responses, then they don't think you're ready based off of your resume

If you are bombing interviews, they don't think you're ready off of what you're able to demonstrate in person

[vapid jay]

yo mi gente

[tired hill]

You just need to ask the question 😄 (then someone will possibly respond in the future)

[vapid jay]

i am new here so little intro is useful

btw tell me about yourself @tired hill

you look like a interesting personality

[tired hill]

I'm quite boring to be honest. You should repeat the question you had in #game-development. Possibly with some more info.

[vapid jay]

Lol that's what people say about programmers.

anyway

can Anyone tell how much time it would take to be a pro pythoneer
and have career as a software developer and how much time did it took for you guys to do learn and
also what are the good sources to learn it easily

[orchid breach]

Guys

I wanna get hired as a freelancer python dev

Maybe for small project

Anyone wanna hire me

I know flask

I need to broaden my knowledge so i can build my portfolio

[vapid jay]

What kind of jobs can a programmer/coder get? especially a young one, like e.g 18 years old

What are you interested in

Webdev, data science, general python programming

I'm still a beginner but I just want to secure a job

Webdev, data science, general python programming
@vapid jay which one is the easiest to get?

Web dev is the easiest but it really depends on you

Don’t do/learn something that you don’t like

That's true

thanks

👍, just get good at python and learn some data structure/Algorithms

Do projects and try to contribute to open source projects til you get a job

Do employers regularly employ young people?

yeah

Really depends on skills

Not age/sex/gender

Ahh i see

thanks @vapid jay

👍

[flint sorrel]

So, if I wanted to eventually code videogames, having no prior college or higher education, where would I start?

[marsh wind]

they do tend to prefer people with degree for first full-time jobs @vapid jay

[vapid jay]

Oh I see

[marsh wind]

so when you are young and still going through your under/post grad studies usually your jobs are internships rather than fulltime

[vapid jay]

what if you don't have a degree or anything like that?

oh ok

[flint sorrel]

my question leans more toward what type of degree should I be getting.

computer science seems... broad

[marsh wind]

if you don't have (and don't plan to get) a degree that gets more complicated - you need projects and skilks to prove that you are worth being interviewed and hired eventually

it is, but still CS is your best bet zelda

[flint sorrel]

alright thank you. I am turning in an application to my local college next year and needed to know the basics of what I wanted as a degree.

Does it really matter BA vs MA?

[vapid jay]

Degree ain’t mandatory

[marsh wind]

also you might have options to specialize while doing it

[vapid jay]

All you need is skills/knowledge

[marsh wind]

yeah but not having a degree make things more complicated (to get first job at least)

[flint sorrel]

Correct, but I can code all the websites I want and still not know how to make a video game 😂

[vapid jay]

I know Apple engineers who doesn’t even have a high school degree

Can jobs regarding computer science have good pay?

Yeah

Really depends on the field tho

yeah ok

[flint sorrel]

that's because Steve Jobs operated at a higher understanding than most. He was quoted as saying he would rather hire a lazy person as they are most likely going to find the fastest and easiest solution

[marsh wind]

thug, I am not sayis it's impossible or anything. There are people who worked it out fine, but there everyone should carve their own path

[flint sorrel]

^agreed

[marsh wind]

and if a person is young and can get a degree it's better to

just will make things easier

[vapid jay]

Do certificates count as good qualifications? Or is it only a degree?

Well it’s really up to the person

[flint sorrel]

I appreciate the input but as I already have my sights set on college, I will be attending 🙂

[vapid jay]

@vapid jay it just proves that you did/learned something

@vapid jay it just proves that you did something
@vapid jay So even if you have no certifcates or anything, you can show on your resume that you have coded for example an app or website?

[marsh wind]

depends on certifcates to

yes

[vapid jay]

alrighty

[marsh wind]

there are some certs that can be valued - usually things in cybersecurity and cloud stuff like AWS certifications

on the other hand, certificate from some education platforms, udemy, coursera etc that teach you to code etc are rather worthless as they are (without proof that you actually used the knowledge)

[coarse jackal]

is contributing to open source good for juniors?

[vast reef]

Anybody doing machine learning with python and thinking of it as a career?

[wispy cape]

I'd say it's good for anyone 🙂 @coarse jackal

[surreal flint]

Anybody doing machine learning with python and thinking of it as a career?
@vast reef I'm learning ML and trying to get a career with it, haven't gotten any job experience tho >->

[coarse jackal]

I don't have any programer exp, soo good luck ;D

[distant crow]

that's because Steve Jobs operated at a higher understanding than most. He was quoted as saying he would rather hire a lazy person as they are most likely going to find the fastest and easiest solution
of course, he meant the right kind of lazy. fact is, this is mostly a sensationalist statement than reality, it's a nice story, but in reality such people are far from lazy. they only appear lazy because they're not rushing on the first and simplest solution that comes to mind

[proven star]

is this even a real quote?

I thought it was bill gates

yeah it's bullshit

[distant crow]

maybe. I've heard the thing said from time to time. but don't remember who. in any case it's not directly actionable, you can't just hire the nearest lazy person you find and expect amazing results

[proven star]

not a real quote

[distant crow]

what is probably true is Jobs and his team were able to attract and select some real talent, some who happen to not have degrees. but this is not causal: it's more accurate to say that really talented people can be great even without formal education, but formal education helps

it's less accurate to say that formal education has no value just because some people are great without it

[proven star]

I have a degree and no job, how'd you explain that

I'm kidding

but I really have no job and a degree

[viral ridge]

im not sure if joining HPE comm and media department as mainly java dev will slow down my career? Im thinking as opposed to other jobs in full stack and cloud that give a broader skillset.. perhaps?

[fervent plover]

I have a question, how did u guys learn programming/python? I'm currently learning python by myself (newbie) and I am really interested in it. I kind of want to take a bachelor in programming but it takes 5 years cuz I'm lacking some education.

[vapid jay]

@fervent plover I learned by doing a lot of different online courses on udemy, coursera etc and i've been working fulltime for three years now

do some online courses and then do as many projects as possible

[fervent plover]

Oh I've seen a lot of ads for udemy courses, are they any good?

[vapid jay]

well the quality vary depending on who's created them but some have been really great and some have been less great. I've learned python, c#, react, vue, angular and alot more mostly by udemy courses

[fervent plover]

That is pretty nice, did it take long to learn programming itself? For example Python

[vapid jay]

but they also have 30 days refund policy so if you feel like one is really bad you can get your money back

[fervent plover]

I saw this: https://www.udemy.com/course/the-complete-web-development-bootcamp/?moon=&utm_campaign=ROW-FB-TECH-Tier2-Indpt-EN-ENG-Instagram-Creative&utm_medium=udemyads&utm_source=facebook&utm_term=_._ag_ROW-FB-TECH-Tier2-Indpt-webdev-EN-static_._ci_1565838_._ad_6238870035670_._

but felt like it was too good to be true tbh

[vapid jay]

well i knew many languages before python which made it super easy to learn it and i felt like i kinda knew it before i even started since many languages are kinda the same

[fervent plover]

Cuz of the price

Aah that is nice, python is my first language so it's a bit hard to learn but I'm trying to

[vapid jay]

i have a few friends that done this one

https://www.udemy.com/course/the-web-developer-bootcamp/

and they say its great

[fervent plover]

That looks pretty good, from the description and the preview
It costs like $13 so it is not that much to pay

It's like a penny for me lmao

[vapid jay]

@tender plover as a junior developer probably a few months maybe, probably even less, the problem is to find someone who wants to hire, its hard sometimes to get the first job, then its easy as hell

@fervent plover yeah they are really cheap and a great way to start

[fervent plover]

I got the humble bundle one with different courses and stuff, I just haven't really sat down and learned it because I have other stuff to focus on too

[frosty cove]

A few months to be job ready? No way

[vapid jay]

it took me 3,5 months from the day i started learning

[frosty cove]

To do what though?

Work as a developer at a big company? Teach programming? Contract work?

[vapid jay]

well my job title was software engineer

[frosty cove]

From zero programming knowledge you're talking years

"job ready" also means different things to different people

[fervent plover]

I think it depends on how well you learn programming and how well u utilize it

[distant crow]

maybe the job is mostly spreadsheets with a little bit of python on the side? could be a few weeks

[vapid jay]

it also depends alot about the person, because i know people with a lot of education who cant get a job at all, and for me it was super easy

[smoky anvil]

i want to learn

python

[old cedar]

ive been learning python for a 3 years and im 14, but i still dont know what i want to be

[frosty cove]

That's alright. I didn't know what I wanted to be even after I entered university. You have time

[fervent plover]

I'm like 21, got certificate for IT and knows a bit with servers (R2), still took me a long time to get a full time job

[vapid jay]

the thing is also, you can do alot of courses etc, but if you build a killer github, thats waay better

[smoky anvil]

ohh i am 16 and i dont know progamming i want to learn

[vapid jay]

because then people can see what you actually know

[frosty cove]

@smoky anvil https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[smoky anvil]

ok thanks

[frosty cove]

Seeya 👋

[vapid jay]

Have a good one

[viral ridge]

@fervent plover if i had 5yrs, i would just learn by working

[fervent plover]

5 years by working with it would be great, I need like 1-2 years just to get ready for bachelor then 3 years for bachelor, which by that time I could learn it by myself

[mellow crest]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[distant crow]

it's true. it's very hard to decide between someone with 3 years of bachelor and no work experience, versus someone with 3 years of work experience. For regular dev positions, I'd probably consider the person with work experience a stronger and less risky candidate, all things being equal. However where specialized skills comes into play, particularly ones that may be heavy on the data science, perhaps formal education has an edge

also worth pointing out the slight difference in salary expectations, which makes this decision much harder. a 3 year bachelor would be going into a junior position starting with a graduate salary. Someone with 3 years of work experience may be looking at a mid-level position and salary to match

getting a promising graduate with good theoretical fundamentals from their course on a graduate salary is actually quite tempting, I wouldn't discount that opportunity purely on basis of lack of work experience

so... no clear answers here. the degree is worth something. but exactly what, is hard to say. It's definitely not worth nothing

[fervent plover]

Yeah you got a point, overall I think like learning it by myself will be the smartest. I've got a full time job (100%) and I've been working for a year, going for a school isn't the best choice since I need to do 1-2 years of school then 3 years with bachelor. I could rather work full time and learn programming by myself without any hussle

[simple prairie]

you're only 21 though, by the time you finish you'll be 26, I think it's worth it, the bachelor is going to open a lot of doors for you and you'll make more money over time

[fervent plover]

Also depends if I can get into university

[simple prairie]

where do you live? If you're in the US you can get into a community college

[fervent plover]

Norway