career-advice

[gilded valley]

you don't get MBAs straight after uni

[modest panther]

he could* be a ceo of a car company with that education

after 20 years of work

[distant crow]

because Oxford's CS degree is an MSc, not an MEng

[mortal wedge]

General Engineering vs Investment Banking vs Software Engineering all sound pretty different

[modest panther]

A tip I wish I would've received back when i was 19 is. Don't focus on what can you learn. Focus on how the things you learn add value to other people.

Just because you have a degree it doesn't automatically qualify you for a high salary.

a degree is a signal of potential value.

[distant crow]

yeah, Oxford's general engineering course is pretty theoretical, you learn stuff like civil, mechanical, thermo, electrical etc. etc. but it's actually really light on computer science

[mortal wedge]

It's the same with most engineering. I'm just glad that employers haven't caught on that an engineering degree doesn't qualify for you in a career of compsci

[distant crow]

the closest you get is a 1 week lab on embedded systems working in embeded C with a micro robot, and a lecture series on machine code, which is done on paper

by 3rd and 4th year, you can specialize in 3 areas, the closest you get to CS is Information Engineering topic, which is only a bit of CS, there's an awful lot of control theory in there that's still more math than CS

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, you'd have to specialize pretty hard in CS

[distant crow]

if you want to go into programming as a career, general engineering (eng sci) is not all that useful to be honest. plus if you're heavily invested in the "prestige" as maxwellscott here, Oxford's undergraduate engineering isn't that good, but their CS department is much more well-known

[mortal wedge]

Ah

I wasn't sure which college we were talking about. I went to a top engineering school in the US and you could minor in compsci or have that be your focus, but otherwise you just got a single entry level comp sci class and learned matlab

[distant crow]

oh god yeah, pretty much that's what you'll be using at Oxford Eng Sci too

[mortal wedge]

We did have some tech electives in algorithm development and embedded, I took both

[distant crow]

embedded is good stuff - teaches you fundamentals of how computers work because you're faced with the realities of hardware ilmitations

[vapid jay]

Could I get a job only knowing python?

[mortal wedge]

Probably

[vapid jay]

😩

[mortal wedge]

Shouldn't that make you feel good?

[vapid jay]

Probably isn't a yes 😖

[white karma]

You gotta make it a yes

[mortal wedge]

^

It also depends on the field you're looking at, seniority level, etc.

[vapid jay]

Something entry level

[mortal wedge]

Okay, cool. Do you know what industry or field you're looking into?

Web apps? Data Science?

[crude crown]

Only knowing Python won't be enough IMO.

[shadow moss]

around my area no

two people I know work primarily with Python, one knows Java and one knows C#

[mortal wedge]

Also, it's a really bad time for entry level looking for jobs right now 😦

[shadow moss]

their jobs said they wouldn't hire completely only Python person

[mortal wedge]

At least in US

[shadow moss]

this is East Coast US

[mortal wedge]

nod

Entry level though, Rabbit? sweets is looking for entry level

[shadow moss]

alot of it a snobbiness, "YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND PROGRAMMING IF YOU DON'T KNOW TYPED LANGUAGE!"

yea, no one I know is doing Entry level

since training is very difficult remotely

[mortal wedge]

Yeah

[vapid jay]

Any recommendations for trainings?

like Pluralsight? or CBT? similar?

At what point could you not consider yourself entry level?

[stone estuary]

Couple years of open source work?

[vapid jay]

I used to think it was the quantity and the plethora of unique coding projects...

What if I completed Automate the boring stuff with python and Python Crash Course?

[distant panther]

hi

[mortal wedge]

Hello

[vernal latch]

Careers and AWS which would be a good way to go once CP and SA are in the pocket?

[marsh wind]

It's the same with most engineering. I'm just glad that employers haven't caught on that an engineering degree doesn't qualify for you in a career of compsci
@mortal wedge well. If hr/recruiter Fuck up, good for you. But then good tech interview will make everything clear

[nocturne snow]

Is Jira quite popular for managing larger scale python projects?

[vestal lantern]

Only knowing Python won't be enough IMO.
I firmly disagree. I currently work for AWS, only "real" programming experience I had was Python.

But, I have many years of Red Hat Linux (CentOS primarily) experience, as well as a Red Hat certification (RHCSA)

I have a GED, no formal education outside of that.

I was hired because of projects I wrote and my Linux experience.

And I'm on a team where Python is hardly even used, writing Ruby. But, without Python I certainly wouldn't be here.

My recommendation: Be a jack of all trades, master of none. It's better than being master of one 🙂

[gilded valley]

You don't only know python though. In your own message you talk about extensive Linux experience

[wintry imp]

lol its better than being master of one ---> pls tell me ur joking bud

no idea what level of proficency u need to be called experienced linux user haha

like i said it depends if its for the job criteria but u can call it as linux experience

its pretty ambigious

lmfao freedom of speech

im talking about programming language

idk what u on about here

lol coz u asked me ?? i told u what i think about it ?

delpoying app in linux server some system admin stuffs in linux for it

like that

[gilded valley]

@unkempt spindle I feel like you might have mixed up the messages. @Jordan Banana#5555 is the guy who said he had a bunch of Linux experience

[wintry imp]

ohhh

[surreal flint]

whats up? i just joined le convo

[wintry imp]

i think he is asking me that coz i was disagreeing with jordan on what he said about master of none part hahaa

[surreal flint]

My recommendation: Be a jack of all trades, master of none. It's better than being master of one 🙂
@vestal lantern why not be a jack of all trades, and a master of one :P

seems simple lol

[wintry imp]

well i agree with that one lol

[surreal flint]

🤣

[vestal lantern]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[surreal flint]

know enough to talk to a specialist in other fields

[vestal lantern]

You can do that too, if you have the energy

Go for it

[surreal flint]

but have your own field where you are the best in

[ashen elk]

@surreal flint Agree👍

[wintry imp]

yup

[surreal flint]

yes it would be hard^

[vestal lantern]

You don't only know python though. In your own message you talk about extensive Linux experience
But Linux is not programming. My point is, if you "only know Python" as your programming experience, you absolutely have a chance. Just get good.

[surreal flint]

👍

[ashen elk]

But for problem solving, the most fun comes in crossing the divisions. That's a thing a lot of programmers don't like doing...

[surreal flint]

for linux just use a linux distro as your main os?

youll end up learning the basics with time

[vestal lantern]

I started learning linux at a webhosting company doing support

and then took it outside of work at home, to learn it faster/more in depth

[surreal flint]

ah what you use is probs more advanced than mines

[gilded valley]

@vestal lantern the guy's question wasn't "only knowing one programming language" - it was "only knowing python". There's lots of fields that only use Python, data science for example, but you still require tonnes of additional non-programming skills

[surreal flint]

u use a headless distro?

[vestal lantern]

always

I ran CentOS 7 for a while and forced myself to learn more tools by compiling i3 and its dependencies for it from scratch, it was hell lol

[surreal flint]

lmao rip, I used a headless distro when installing raspbian on my rasp pi, that was a complete mess xD

[wintry imp]

i still dont get if SnackPack was asking me that coz he was mad about my comment or just asking genuine question lol??

[gilded valley]

no, I think he just mixed up who said what

[wintry imp]

ahhh fair enough

[vestal lantern]

I went no linux experience -> working for a company that used cPanel -> Learned cPanel pretty well, and some CentOS -> learn a LOT more CentOS and started to learn Python -> Do a lot of Python projects on my CentOS servers -> Get job at big company

[surreal flint]

cool^

[vestal lantern]

a bit of a whack way about it, but it worked

[surreal flint]

i still havent gotten my first job but i do know some basic linux and python :P

[vestal lantern]

I would really recommend looking at webhosting companies and their support teams

many will hire you remotely, pay well, and train you

[surreal flint]

ah well i aint into webdev

[vestal lantern]

I was hired on with just windows IT experience for a year and a half

neither was I lol

[wintry imp]

isnt it hard to train remotely ?

[surreal flint]

im currently working on ML/AI

[vestal lantern]

depends on the trainer

and the training materials

uh yes

it was 100% entry level

I didn't touch a command prompt my first 6 months

I just took calls, helped with Wordpress issues

Learned cPanel slowly

[surreal flint]

i do harder stuff as a 16 year old .-.

that would be amazing for entry level

[vestal lantern]

it was HostGator, don't expect to find a job from them like that anymore, they've moved all support overseas.

But yeah, at 16, you have a ton of time

[surreal flint]

thats why ive started at 16, time is important xD

[wintry imp]

true

[vestal lantern]

I started my "career" at 24

I am turning 30 this year, started at AWS in April

[wintry imp]

thats cool

[surreal flint]

AMAZON WEB SERVICES?

[vestal lantern]

so roughly 5 1/2 years to get to AWS

yes

[surreal flint]

damnnnn ima start using ur crap soon xD

[vestal lantern]

and I got paid to do it instead of going to college

[surreal flint]

kinda expensive tho 😅

[vestal lantern]

Heh I actually have zero AWS experience

I use vultr personally

cheap

and well, my own home rack

[surreal flint]

hey dont say that now lmao u work with them xD

home rack?

[vestal lantern]

Yeah I have 3 of my own servers in a closet in my house

[surreal flint]

specs o.o?

[vestal lantern]

trash lol

nice dude

that's a good path

webhosting is a GREAT way into the field

I dropped out of high school at 16 lol

if my dumbass can do it, anyone can

[wide needle]

was never really good at school

[vestal lantern]

me either, self learning type

[surreal flint]

i might wanna get into academia tho so yeh i think ill have to do college

same fuck school is useless 🤣

[dry sapphire]

in my country it's very, very uncommon to drop out of the equivalent of high school

quite formal education-focused here

and the concept of "trades" is more or less unknown

[vestal lantern]

no idea how common it is in the US to drop out and succeed in life

I can't imagine it's very often

[surreal flint]

yeh gm same here

[wide needle]

school is useful for a lot of people and it's definitely a bit easier to get in the industry if you go in my experience but it's also very common in tech to not need it if you're self driven

[surreal flint]

i dont think its even allowed to drop out lol

like your parents gonna get in trouble

[vestal lantern]

well, my parents had to sign a bunch of forms

[wintry imp]

i dropped out lol

in my last semester lol

[dry sapphire]

in my country I think it's mandatory up to the age of 16, which is when you take your second standardised examination

[surreal flint]

wHaT

[dry sapphire]

or something like that

[surreal flint]

that sounds dumb dropping out last semester, like might as well have finished it?

[wintry imp]

depression

[vestal lantern]

you don't need to take an exam in the US, but you can, and it's good to, so you can show you at least "went to school"

[surreal flint]

ah >->

[wintry imp]

its dark lol

nvm

but i did 6 month intern in my 2nd year so

[surreal flint]

ive got 1 year left, and my grades are pretty good im in a rlly easy school so yeh

[vestal lantern]

how do you find web hosting tech support positions?
I foudn HostGator on craigslist job postings lol

tbh, just check webhosting provider's websites

[surreal flint]

how many hours a day would u have to work?

[vestal lantern]

I have a TxCHSE, Texas Certificate of High School Equivalency. Took 5 hours, got me nothing.

[surreal flint]

is it a 9-5 thing?

[wide needle]

well that was like 2003 i think and a friend worked there and referred me

the tech screen was hilariously simple "name 3 ftp clients. name 3 email clients. what is nslookup. what is whois"

[vestal lantern]

@vestal lantern wait so it's worthless?
I mean, in the sense that it's only ever been asked for 1 time. They didn't care how well I passed or anything. Just that I did.

[surreal flint]

idk what any of those are lol

[vestal lantern]

the tech screen was hilariously simple "name 3 ftp clients. name 3 email clients. what is nslookup. what is whois"
@wide needle HostGator had a fake windows XP desktop in browser, had 3 minutes to open my documents, make a new file, type in it, and save.

[wide needle]

😄

that's even easier

[vestal lantern]

yeah lol

the in person did ask me like, what does DNS mean, what does FTP mean, shit like that

But that's all pretty basic stuff tbh

I didn't know DNS

fwiw

[wintry imp]

filezilla lol

i know only that one

[vestal lantern]

ftp on linux, ftp on windows, lftp on linux

samba ain't FTP, but good try.

[wide needle]

back then the big thing for tech support to know about dns was "it takes 24 to 72 hours for dns changes to propagate"

[vestal lantern]

that brings me back

ugh

"why is my site not up yet???"

I feel that in my bones

[wide needle]

back then it was more common for people to use ftp

i wouldn't be surprised if people don't know it today

[surreal flint]

any of u guys have any advice on ML related careers? o,o

[wide needle]

browsers were just getting the ability to upload files haha

[vestal lantern]

miles outside of my career

I am a lowly pipeline grunt

[wintry imp]

i used filezilla like 2 years ago

[surreal flint]

its so annoying they all expect u to have a masters/phd

[wide needle]

i do backend infra, don't know anything about ML except people think it can solve everything with the right model 😄

[vestal lantern]

machine learning is a very advanced topic. If you can get really good at ML without a degree, you will get hired, that I promise.

[surreal flint]

i do backend infra, don't know anything about ML except people think it can solve everything with the right model 😄
@wide needle with enough data ;)

thats my plan dude xD

i just got my first rig

[wintry imp]

y dont use data from kaggle?

[surreal flint]

pretty decent 2070 super, 36 gigs of ram, amd 3600

[vestal lantern]

can ML solve my ED and baldness?

[surreal flint]

kaggle is good but not for everything

[wintry imp]

fair enough

[surreal flint]

like if u wanna do one of their competitions

[wintry imp]

hair transplant robot?

[surreal flint]

then yeah use their data

[wintry imp]

u can use ml for that lol

[surreal flint]

how? 🤣

[wintry imp]

u know how hair transplant works

[surreal flint]

Ml cant be used for everything, its actually pretty bad at allot of things ngl

[wintry imp]

just make robot do it for u using ml

solved baldness lol

[vestal lantern]

big brain

[surreal flint]

how do hair transplants work btw?

if its that simple i could probs code it up myself lol xD

[vestal lantern]

hair follicle transplant

wizards

[wintry imp]

i feel like im gonna go bald everytime some bald person stares at my hair

pun intended

[surreal flint]

argh getting the data of how the arm should move would be a mess tho

my uncles are all bald

[wintry imp]

u will be soon too'

genetics

[surreal flint]

ikr xD

my moms side are bald

[wintry imp]

same

[surreal flint]

my dads side no one is bald even 50+

[wintry imp]

my hair is thick like pube hair

😛

[surreal flint]

->

[wintry imp]

so not going bald anything soon

[surreal flint]

dude i made an ml text generator that writes covid articles

[wintry imp]

did u mean like scrap other ppls article

on the web and make ur own ?

[surreal flint]

ML MODEL THAT WRITES A RESUME

no dude given enough articles

it will make a new one

change the wording and crap

[vast shoal]

I don't think this is relevant to the topic of this channel.

[wintry imp]

oh lol i thought i was talking in off topic channel my bad

[surreal flint]

we started with career related stuff but kinda strayed off sorry 😅

[vast shoal]

No worries.

[surreal flint]

dude we need to switch channels xD

[vivid dock]

A website, that's about you is never a bad project to do.

Not just for the experience, but to share with others later when you want to get your name out there

As an online portfolio / Resume

Trying to hook them up later where you discord bot can interact with the website, and your website uses the email sender also sounds like a fun project to do

[gilded valley]

If you're 13, the best thing you can do is play around with different random things you enjoy. Making a game, playing around with raspberry pi robotics stuff, some networking stuff, ethical hacking stuff - just try different things and see what you enjoy. That will put you in a fantastic stead to figure out what you want to do later in life

[calm compass]

I'm signing up in Upwork for freelancing, and im currently just gonna freelance as a discord bot developer, it's not anything serious really, just something i wanna do for a while, and... i'm not sure what does it fall under

IT & Networking?
Web, Mobile & Software dev?

Data Science & Analytics?

Those are the three related to tech that i see

[vivid dock]

Web, Mobile & Software dev
Is my bet, discord is a web application

[calm compass]

Makes sense. Thank you!

Yeah... it requires my education and past work experiences, and i'm 15, and logically... I've not gone to any university and i've learned python by myself with this discord, documentation, videos etc... so... Yeah. Upwork isn't for me

[onyx hawk]

Any quantitative traders?

[covert vector]

hey what beginner job should i get in computers

like a simple one

i am not 18 yet lol

[distant crow]

can you write code?

[jovial rover]

what jobs can I, someone that has not gone into uni or college, look into?

[opal perch]

stacking shelves

and work on projects on the side

[odd jewel]

Just graduated from university with a degree in computer science. Whats a good place to start? What should I expect or look for with my first job within the field. My university taught us Java but I'm enjoying python alot better so I would prefer to focus on that more. Can anyone in the field with experience share any tips/information. Thanks 🙂

[opal perch]

Depending on the country, look for grad jobs, they're awesome because you're learning at the same time as getting experience

Otherwise look for any junior job, apply for python jobs, just show you have projects in python

[odd jewel]

do you have any suggestions on the types of projects I should work on? Or should I just go for things im passionate about ?

[vast shoal]

@odd jewel Do the kinds of projects that you would like to work with professionally.

[distant crow]

if you can find stuff you're passionate about that develops skills or experience that's useful, then that'll be the best option

what area are you most interested in?

data science? robotics? web backend? etc. etc.

[odd jewel]

I really like robotics

in highschool i did robotics for 4 years

[distant crow]

robotics is a more difficult hobby to get into due to hardware requirements, but depending on your experience with microcontrollers and related stuff, python's not a bad choice for doing control from a computer. Have you done any stuff with microcontrollers, and do you have any kits and stuff at home?

with robotics and python, there's really only two directions you'd want to go:

1. have python running on a computer be a high-level control for microcontrollers. Interfaced often through serial port (pyserial), or network stack in the case that the device you're talking to has wifi/ethernet
2. ROS and rospy for a full robotics stack

[odd jewel]

i used to have the little nxt brain that ran on c but I dont have it anymore sadly. as for microcontrollers, I should probably invest in one

[distant crow]

unfortunately with python, we rarely touch the low-level electronics, that's still more of a C/C++ thing

[true harness]

you can get a great micro controller for under 50 dollars

[distant crow]

you can get one for $5 if you want

I'm interested in robotics too, and my previous workplace was developing robots on ROSpy. The interesting thing about that work was that a lot of it involved backend technologies, since ROSpy is very modular, it's meant to be run across multiple computer nodes working together to spread the processing load (often you'd have a computer dedicated to low-level control of the robot, while another machine with GPUs dealing with the 3D point clouds from the sensors, and path planning

because of this modularity, the stack was dockerized. so actually half of that job had a lot of overlap with backend developers - you were building containers with CI/CD, an deploying those containers on multiple machines in a network. The network just happens to be a local network inside a 1 tonne robot with wheels and robot arms, but it's the same tech as deploying python in containers in a local computer cluster

at some point we needed a user interface for the robot too, and guess what: out comes the Python Tornado server

[cursive sundial]

Can someone recommend me a reputable certification program / class etc. to "prove" I know Python, so I can get a Junior Python Developer position? I have lots of experience but no certification.

[odd jewel]

wow thats some great information @distant crow

do you mind if I add you as a friend ? I just need someone to talk to every now and then for questions I have about the field

you seem to be exactly what I'm looking for 😄

and know the things I want to know

[distant crow]

ok

check out the stuff going on in #microcontrollers as well

[odd jewel]

@distant crow Thank you ! will check that out now

[novel crag]

hi guys, i'm turning 27 this month and i'd i'm aiming to land a junior dev position by the time i'm 29 (i should specify, i don't care what i'm coding, really, as long as i am coding everyday for work). i am splitting my time between python and c, have been studying and completing projects in python for the last 8 mo.

my question is, when i am reading and learning from a book and come across a concept i can't grasp or a problem i can't solve

given i can dedicate 100% of my freetime to learning to code, do i spend the time necessary to understand that concept, or move on? if i move on, do i prioritise learning something tangentially related?

i suppose what i am asking is general advice on how you guys dealt with ideas, simple or complex, that at some point were beyond your comprehension

thank you lukas.

an example problem that could take me anything from 0 - 2 hrs to solve without google is like

without using min or max, create a function like shuffle(data) (from random) using radint(a, b)

and when i have that and the next page is something i'm super interested in it's hard not to just jump and tell myself i'll come back to it

but a part of me knows i won't and i enjoy doing it, just question whether it's not ideal to focus on these things now

but a part of me is pissed that 8 months in i'm still googling basic shit i should just know

ok, got it. i'll try to better manage my time

yeah there is that

i can't say i've 'learnt' from it though

for example

a 6 line function i wrote yesterday

not super difficult, not super tricky

today trying to rewrite it i'm like a fumbling idiot

it's actually disheartening -.-'

idk, sorry for the rant but i wonder if others are the same sometimes.

[rustic schooner]

How did you/are you/are you all going to decide what you want/wanted to do in life?

[distant crow]

a the age of about 23 I suddenly realized that I liked building electronics, and drones, and stuff. And that I could easily pull all-nighters, and get up after 3 hours of sleep (for a limited time anyway) in order to finish off that electronics project

but I sure as hell didn't want to get out of bed to go to work (when I was working contract positions), or chat to my phd supervisor

up til that point I thought I was lazy or incapable of working, and that I would just go through life listlessly working a job because I needed money to live. But then I discovered a thing that I enjoyed and realized "oh, if I do this, then working doesn't totally suck"

[rustic schooner]

Im right at that stage where I have to basically choose how life's going to unfold; going to start university soon. This brings a lot of uncertainty with it and I don't like it.

[distant crow]

from what I could tell, the majority of people at university don't know what they're going to do with their lives. Probably a quarter don't even know if they want to be at university or want to be on that course

for me, I didn't even know what I wanted to do after I graduated, and sort of fell into doing a PhD because my parents wanted me to

(which I quit when I discovered wat I wanted to do)

so I wouldn't worry about not knowing going into university. It's not the end of the world to switch courses because you suddenly find you prefer the other one (plenty of people do), and it's not the end of the world to be in your final year and still not know what you want to do

what matters is you get an education, meet like-minded people, broaden your horizons

[rustic schooner]

I found a study that I think is in the right direction for me and has a wide range of possible jobs afterwards. So I guess thats a good starting point.

[distant crow]

as good as any

[rustic schooner]

thanks for the advice, ill be pondering over it for the next few weeks probably : )

[distant crow]

yeah, don't worry about it. go to uni, and chat to people there, they'll have lots of perspectives on this question, particularly those in the years above who've just gone through what you have. they're good resources

[rustic schooner]

Will do! Thank you!

[random shuttle]

"a concept i can't grasp or a problem i can't solve" is the only way to progress, better spend 10 hours on this than on thing you are already comfortable with

[marsh wind]

i might wanna get into academia tho so yeh i think ill have to do college
@surreal flint think twice before you take that path heh

[surreal flint]

yeh ur right ngl xD

[marsh wind]

Ngl?

[surreal flint]

not gonna lie*

[crystal ice]

Not Going to Lie

[marsh wind]

Oh ok

[surreal flint]

too much work, not enough money, no life xD

[marsh wind]

And potentially broken nerves, depression, anxiety 😂

[surreal flint]

🤣

[marsh wind]

And if it's US.... Well all that x2

[surreal flint]

i dont mind that, its just that i dont wanna specialize

[marsh wind]

Well. Specialize is academia second name 😉

[swift veldt]

Chasing the funding all day long

the academia's curse.

[hot goblet]

hi guys! are there any quantitative developers? could you elaborate on your role? from what i've read a QD is a software engineer but with a knowledge about finance?

[shadow moss]

Springlee, cloning something isn't best way to show off

[dry sapphire]

okay so I actually have a question

how impressive is having worked on your own startup with an actual product (like a webapp with its own frontend/backend)?

[woeful spruce]

how legit is the startup?

[dry sapphire]

which has been put into production and has customers, but is still clearly a baby

how legit is the startup?
@woeful spruce how would one assess that

[woeful spruce]

well does it have clients or revenue?

...or users?

[dry sapphire]

yes

but not a ton

[mortal wedge]

@novel crag Knowing how to find information and learn is just as valuable as having the knowledge itself. I don't know any developers that don't use google/stack overflow. So there's no need to be frustrated with yourself.

[dry sapphire]

okay the thing I'm wondering about is...how would someone assess the capabilities of the technical cofounder (it's just two of us)

because none of the code is public.

[woeful spruce]

can you show samples?

[dry sapphire]

yeah, sure, why not

[woeful spruce]

or a finished product?

[dry sapphire]

finished product meaning the actual webapp?

[woeful spruce]

then maybe they can assess that

yup

[dry sapphire]

yeah, definitely

[woeful spruce]

that should be sufficient

[mortal wedge]

gm, it's impressive. I talk about my startup all the time and it's one of the more valuable things on my resume.

[dry sapphire]

but the thing is I'm more backend than frontend (I learnt it only under duress, because it's a one man thing)

[mortal wedge]

I actually applied for a job like that Snackpack. I didn't take it.

[dry sapphire]

yeah, I guess showing code samples would be a thing

I didn't even think of that

thanks all

[mortal wedge]

No problem

[dry sapphire]

gm, it's impressive. I talk about my startup all the time and it's one of the more valuable things on my resume.
@mortal wedge how much time did you spend on it?

[mortal wedge]

1-2 years?

[woeful spruce]

backend is pretty damn valuable imo

[dry sapphire]

did you continue working during that time

or was it 100% startup

[mortal wedge]

No, I did the startup fulltime

Well

I actually did school during the same time 😛

[dry sapphire]

are you still managing it?

[woeful spruce]

I feel like less people enjoy the backend stuff

[mortal wedge]

No, the technology didn't pan out.

[dry sapphire]

ah, okay

honestly if this works out I would really like to hire a frontend dev

[mortal wedge]

We were focused on R&D, I was the principal algorithms engineer.

[dry sapphire]

I am sick of muddling my way through CSS

[mortal wedge]

Well, that's what you're able to do. Get some good investors, start expanding your staff, etc.

[dry sapphire]

and I want to kill whoever thought of JS's sort behaviour

[mortal wedge]

Haha

[dry sapphire]

how did you describe it on your resume though

[mortal wedge]

@unkempt spindle small medical device company

[dry sapphire]

security?

that's what I'd imagine

[mortal wedge]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-jEGJObUeT7FbkY-1a5qslQpnZ5ObqWnV0t2vBrUsMI/edit?usp=sharing

I think they flat out just did not trust their employees not to fuck around on facebook

Especially since they gave second years internet access

[dry sapphire]

ah, I see

thanks!

[mortal wedge]

no problem, hope it's able to help someone

This is my resume I used when applying for software jobs in the biomedical industry

[dry sapphire]

subsidiary question: does anyone know if this is useful for getting into a master's programme?

my gut feel is "not really"

sigh guess I'll have to take the GRE

WHAT A PITA...

[mortal wedge]

Don't know. I always wanted to go back for my masters, haven't yet

Makes sense. It's a pretty good time to do it right now while hiring is down

[dry sapphire]

the thing is, though...safety and all

I feel like I really wanna do an on-campus Master's

but...CoVID...

[mortal wedge]

Yeah....

A master's isn't of any use if you're dead

[dry sapphire]

experience and networking, yeah

[woeful spruce]

how cheap are online Master's programs? I would potentially try one of those

[dry sapphire]

if I'm gonna fork out $$ and time I want to also have the experience of a foreign country

[woeful spruce]

but in-person is expensive

not worth it to me to tack on more debt

[dry sapphire]

how cheap are online Master's programs? I would potentially try one of those
@woeful spruce really cheapp

[mortal wedge]

@woeful spruce Depends on the quality of the program

[dry sapphire]

Georgiatech's OMSCS is good...right?

[woeful spruce]

in-person is also insanely valuable, tough choice

especially if it were an MBA or something

[dry sapphire]

it's most likely CS/something mathematics-related for me

probably CS

[mortal wedge]

I'm not familiar with Georgiatech specifically. I know university of Illinois has a pretty good comp sci masters program online. I think University of London has one too?

There's also some really good ones in CA but I don't know if their masters program is still going, I assume so

[crude crown]

just saw your resume @mortal wedge, you also worked with bayesian filtering? Noice!

in other news, someone suggested to me that I should consider moving to product management. Do we have any product managers on this server? 🤔

[shadow moss]

That’s generally not a complement

[mortal wedge]

Thank you!

[crude crown]

I kind of see your point there @shadow moss (that was actually my very first thought), still curious if there was anyone who moved to product management from a technical position in this server in order to have someone to pick their brains a bit.

[shadow moss]

we banished them 😛

[crude crown]

His rationale (please confirm afterwards @shadow moss) should be the fact that you can't cut it in a technical position and it's a polite way to say it.

[shadow moss]

yea

to quote Dilbert: "I wrote The Dilbert Principle around the concept that in many cases the least competent, least smart people are promoted, simply because they’re the ones you don't want doing actual work."

Product Owners generally own scrum team work so it's basically management with pretty wrapper

[little trellis]

What was the background of the person who told you that?

[random shuttle]

my first boss when I started said often "people are promoted until they reach their maximal level of incompetence"

[little trellis]

Good old peter

[random shuttle]

he was the author of this book btw (he is retired now): https://www.amazon.com/UNIX-Savoir-faire-édition-Informatique/dp/2200213174

the kinf of guy who stubbbornly refused any promotion despite being very skilled, who had no problem to tell top level managers in meetings that they are "moronic assholes, would be so relieving if you could stop telling bullshit" in front of everybody

such people are very rare, I am happy I met one 🙂

[little trellis]

Did they accept his input?

[random shuttle]

it's not like they had a choice

[shadow moss]

anyways, Product Owners are somewhat needed but generally product owners come from business side of the house

most product owners from development side were pushed there so they could get another developer

just like occasionally people will push underperformers into managers

[little trellis]

I think depending on the company, a product manager could be viewed less in that light as moving to project management or mid-level management would be.

[random shuttle]

yes, it's quite often people with just enough technical skills to understand what's going on and good dick sucking skills

[shadow moss]

snackpack, have you worked in corporation before?

[random shuttle]

who can orally good articulate themself by the management, sorry

[shadow moss]

most of time, it's they are underperforming, most companies don't like to fire people because lawsuits so amount of documentation required to do so is insane, my wife who is a manager just fired someone and Warning, Warning, Warning, bad mid year review, PIP, weekly meetings about their performance, tons of paperwork and such

[little trellis]

Either that or wait until there's a decent excuse to layoff low performers

[shadow moss]

so unless it's someone SOOOO terrible, most managers prefer to wait till layoffs OR move them around so position you care about is "open", not to mention there is no guarantee that you will be able to replace them with someone better, as someone who helps out with hiring, it's just as bad hiring people, as it is getting hired

[random shuttle]

normally the under-performers are just transfered to a low-- priority project, no?

[shadow moss]

depends

that too

[random shuttle]

like re-designing the internal newsletter that nobody reads or something like that

[little trellis]

Could become maintenance people.

[random shuttle]

yep

[little trellis]

Heavily depends on the country as well obviously.

[shadow moss]

but not every team can support that so.....

[crude crown]

I did ask the person who suggested me that move if he told me that with second intentions and he told me it wasn't at all meant that way, it was a mere suggestion for something off the technical track (he's of the belief that everyone should think of something). Either way, that made me think about staying in the technical track vs moving to something else (which is something I ponder from time to time anyway).

[ashen geyser]

teach me da wayyy

[crude crown]

well, in my company some HR people have recently moved to QA roles.

[wispy cape]

that's ... interesting

[crude crown]

@little trellis the background of the person who told me that was the (in my view) most senior data scientist in the company, I've asked for some feedback on the stuff I've been doing.

[wispy cape]

are QA positions commonly well-paid where you are, because here it's really just junior + intern work

[crude crown]

it depends on the type of QA you're talking about...

[wispy cape]

and I can't imagine someone moving from HR, which is very decently paid, to QA

[shadow moss]

QA are paid the same as dev at my company

[little trellis]

QA is hard to move up from

[crude crown]

if you're talking about mostly manual QA...

[shadow moss]

they program, just differently

[crude crown]

not really

[wispy cape]

here they don't really

and yeah I have this idea of manual testing

[shadow moss]

Yea, they are writing tests and Selenium browser synthetic tests

[crude crown]

QA automation I think should earn more or less the same as regular SW devs

also known as SDETs

[wispy cape]

ok fair, still curious in how the skillset from HR people can be relevant in that aspect tho

[crude crown]

they aren't at all

[little trellis]

In that case you’re probably doing a lot of the same things as devops in some shops

[crude crown]

it was, in my view, a move in order not to lay them off due to COVID

a surprisingly merciful move from the company. In turn, some people in QA moved to product management haha

you're right on that icmitch, actually QA automation is under the realm of the SRE group here.

[little trellis]

Can’t say it’s not an admirable move. With office space unoccupied the value of tons of hr people dwindles I’m sure. QA provides continued value regardless.

Would be interesting to see how that ramp up works for them

[crude crown]

yes, certainly the company wasn't mercyful on that regard but hey, at least there was an attempt not to straight up lay them off.

I can't even imagine how the ramp up is being done, especially considering we're all remote until the end of 2020

and they're for all purpose and intent junior QAs

well, not my problem.

[shadow moss]

I'd be unhappy if my company did that

[little trellis]

Sounds like some senior’s job just tripled

[crude crown]

there's about 100 things more worthy of being unhappy about in the company compared to this, this doesn't even register as something to be unhappy about.

[shadow moss]

because it basically means they don't see tech as useful

[random shuttle]

QA is extremely important imho

[little trellis]

I think it depends on the circumstances. It could mean that since they funneled the extra resources they had into that area that they did see it as the most critical. They may likely be under hiring constraints like everyone is and making due with the people they have.

Could see it both ways

[shadow moss]

I know and you can't just take some HR people and be like "THEY ARE NOW QA"

[random shuttle]

shouldn't be considered as "garage way"

I am not sure I would be very good at this job but for sure QA is a major milestone in the added value path

[wispy cape]

I have a problem with the message that is sending to the actual QA people, like "what you're doing can be done by people who don't know anything about engineering btw", I'm sure many people didn't take it well at all

And same for the HR ppl, "btw you weren't that useful so go pretend to work there instead"

[little trellis]

A fair point for sure. A strike to both sides

[crude crown]

true

well, just checked quickly the careers page of the company, no openings for the "manual" QA.

[random shuttle]

maybe those companies should re-assess how they value positions, valuating QA more and product owner less

what's the value of a super powerpoint presentation with super gant graph if the end-user has a very poor experience with the product...

[mortal wedge]

It's really hard to move from SDET to a developer position.

[peak hatch]

Hello good nigth, my name is Joel and I am trying to start as a freelance python programmer, any advice?

[white karma]

Hope you’re experienced

[mortal wedge]

Keep in mind it's going to be like 80% marketing and selling yourself

and that you're generally expected to be experienced. So hopefully you're starting as a freelance programmer and not starting as a programmer

[jagged schooner]

Keep your bids as low as you can being satisfied, you'll then have more chances of getting a task

[snow cairn]

Hello my name is fabian

I’am from chile

Who is here?

[jagged schooner]

How can I help you

[true harness]

#ad?

[vast shoal]

@silent haven We don't allow advertising on this server, sorry.

[wintry imp]

so is it normal to only look for free cloud services for ur startup till u start getting some paying customers?

[gilded valley]

no

[wintry imp]

ummm

[vast shoal]

Most startups have some starting capital to pay for building their service until they can start getting revenue.

[wintry imp]

oh ty i was just planning to set everything on free services atm and when i got the basic function of the app completed i would try share my ideas somewhere to raise capital for paid services ??? its like i got 0.0001 percent rate of success of raising captial but still does it sound normal?

[vast shoal]

I mean, it's not a bad idea to have a prototype to show to investors, or on a kickstarter or something, so sure, why not

[wintry imp]

oh sweet thnx heaps 😄

just wanted to confirm it

[grim star]

Learning python, I’ve gone over:
Basic arithmetic, variables, data types, mutable/immutable, numbers, string properties/methods, user input, print formatting, lists, dictionaries, tuples, sets, Booleans, None, files, comparison operators, comparison shortcuts, chaining operators

[little trellis]

Build something simple now if you haven’t already. A command like calculator app or something.

[grim star]

@little trellis when is Python “viewable”, instead of in a console?

[little trellis]

You’re talking about like interacting with a GUI or something?

That’s what you mean by viewable? @grim star

[grim star]

@little trellis when you can see on the screen what your creating, instead of the console

[little trellis]

@grim star there are many GUI packages for python. Those would allow you to build a screen to interact with. You can find one that looks good to you by googling “python GUI library”. It is far more common in the industry to use python as the backend and build an interface as a website using another language like JavaScript which is more purpose built for it.

@grim star when I mentioned the calculator app I was thinking input would be in the form of console input as that is far simpler

[grim star]

@little trellis is TKinter built into python? So, when you use python, how much of the work you do, you see vs, you don’t see?

[little trellis]

@grim star TKinter would be a good one to try. That looks to be the standard GUI library for Python.

When I use it as a Data Engineer almost none is seen. In most cases the program will receive some outside input, generally a http request of some sorts, then the program will run and gather outside data it needs to modify and finally output somewhere else such as a database or storage location.

[vast shoal]

This is not really on-topic for this channel. @grim star If you need more help getting started with tkinter, please check out #❓｜how-to-get-help and claim a help channel.

[grim star]

@little trellis ok, how much of your work is online vs desktop?

[little trellis]

@grim star generally development work is done locally on your desktop until it is proven to work and then deployed somewhere online such as a cloud service.

[grim star]

@little trellis Ok, what are starter type of jobs that you started to do first? I’m liking python, it dose seem like, you think you know how to use something, but then combined with something else..... it’s completely different, in a way

@little trellis should I focus on web like flask or, desktop like Django and TKinter?

[little trellis]

Django would also be considered web in my book. It depends, what do you like to do with Python? Do you have a general idea of what you would want with a career in it/what you want to be doing with the hobby? @grim star

@grim star the first things I built with it for an actual job outside of school were generally scripts to analyze data

[surreal flint]

as in a career in data science?

[little trellis]

@surreal flint yup, that’s what I was working towards then and doing now.

[surreal flint]

what was the barrier to entry? did u have a degree? and if so in what?

sorry if im asking too much 😅

[grim star]

@little trellis is data science more of a need? Starting with python, what do you learn first? Is it python basics + Django +??

[surreal flint]

just code, first learn the basics, then youll have a better grasp of what you like, and then you can look into a career in what u like

[little trellis]

@surreal flint no worries at all, that’s what this channel is for I believe. Barrier to entry is generally experience. I have a degree in business with a minor in CS so a lot was self taught. I started in a marketing job but eventually had enough autonomy where I could start using python and SQL daily in my first job and that was a good way to get in.

[surreal flint]

So lots of projects would be useful?

i currently have a few ML projects, and am currently working on webscraping to get data easily dw im making sure what im scraping is legal xD, and yeah ig i like a mix of datascience/ML

[little trellis]

Projects are useful for sure but if you can get some real experience in there. Contribute to open source is good. Or find a job of any kind and try adding some Python to it to automate things. People will notice that and that’s a way to get a foot in the door.

@grim star Datascience is popular now but core python knowledge will be popular much more broadly and longer

[grim star]

@little trellis what areas of python do you focus on learning towards data science? Also, like flask or Django is next after Py basics, what’s that for Data science?

[hardy briar]

good morning, group

i'm learning python for almost 11 months now, started some js and i was wondering, is it worth it to learn mongodb? what is better? i have some knowledge about relational dbs but mongo seems to be growing in usability

[wispy cape]

@grim star really just the numerical ecosystem, data science in general is quite light in terms of programming

Also flask/Django are not compulsory to learn if you're not interested in web dev for example, it's not a "next step" after the basics

[surreal flint]

Numpy / Pandas ig,, oh and lgneous he meant next step after basics for webdev

justcode if ur into data science maybe also get into ML, pretty sure there are job opportunities there

[little trellis]

@grim star to be honest my answer isn’t even more Python. It’s SQL. Learn SQL

You’ll be using SQL as much if not more than Python in most Data Science jobs

[wispy cape]

it reaaaaaaaally depends on what exactly in data science

[surreal flint]

again justcode, learn the basics and youll figure out what u wanna do from there

[wispy cape]

it's such a broad field, my title can be seen as a variant of "data scientist" yet i don't ever touch sql

if we're talking like data engineering, then yes by all means you will have to learn sql

if we're talking machine learning engineer, other than pulling data (and even then), you won't touch sql much

[grim star]

What is a “entry” data science job like? Or even a project for a beginner

[wispy cape]

again, really depends on what exactly in data science it is that you're doing

it's such a vague umbrella term

[grim star]

How about machine learning? What’s after the basics of python?

[little trellis]

Very interesting @wispy cape. Are you an ML Engineer? I’m saying that because almost all data I’ve seen for large companies lives in a sql based data warehouse which you’ll need to access consistently

[wispy cape]

I am in the process of formally becoming one, graduating in 2 and a half month

[surreal flint]

im learning ml, havent touched sql once :P

[wispy cape]

At the company i'm in, we just use stuff like google storage, datastore and shit like that

and i just pull my data through python apis

[surreal flint]

Lgneous what field are u into?

[wispy cape]

computer vision

[grim star]

What should you focus on for machine learn after python basics?

[surreal flint]

o.o, i did a project with melanoma classification using a multimodal model xD <- pretty sure thats comp vision yeh xD?

[wispy cape]

It's a mix of learning theory, learning more about python and generic good practices, learning libraries, etc @grim star

in whatever order you want

(maybe the good practices before the libraries)

or at the same time

[surreal flint]

Also just code how old are you? like are u in uni or still in hs?

cuz u might have to learn some math aswell

unless u wanna just do code with no idea about the theory behind it which also works 🤣

[wispy cape]

not that it should scare you, you can easily get started with HS level math

[surreal flint]

yep, im 16 and honestly other than some of the harder derivations its been easy

[little trellis]

A small company then @wispy cape? Almost every company I’ve worked for or consulted for keeps their data in a sql based data warehouse and I would say that is industry best practice

[wispy cape]

no it's a fortune 500

[grim star]

I thought myself calculus and trig. I’m 30

Taught

[surreal flint]

ah^

[grim star]

I like calculus more than trig. JavaScript reminded me of CAL

[wispy cape]

also we do use a bit of SQL, but really it's mostly trivial queries just to pull the data once

admittedly, it's not a tech company, if that matters

[surreal flint]

ah well still justcode, learn python basics first then it will be easier to find ur next step

[grim star]

So, would learning Django, benefit towards ML?

[wispy cape]

not directly no, it will make you better at python, and you can definitely use it in conjunction with ML for some project

[surreal flint]

i dont think so?

flask could be useful to deploy ur models to le web tho

[wispy cape]

django can be used for that too

[surreal flint]

ah ive never used django 😅

[wispy cape]

either is fine, but it won't make you a better """"""data scientist"""""

[surreal flint]

tru^

[wispy cape]

it will make you a better python programmer at the very least tho

[little trellis]

@wispy cape that makes more sense. Was going to be surprised if there was a company of size out there that didn’t have sql based data.

[grim star]

@surreal flint I’m starting with Flask, it’s said to be more “vanilla Py”, so after the basics, is SQL?? To lean towards DS?

[little trellis]

I’d say start with Flask.

[grim star]

@little trellis Flask has a better directed use of what your creating for a website, it’s it’s own way of “components” and it’s better laid out

Vs vue or React.... but i like both of those as well

[little trellis]

@grim star as @wispy cape has pointed out not all jobs use SQL extensively. It’s just from my experience working on data engineering and data science projects that a ton of time is spent gathering and formatting the data in SQL before any traditional data science modeling or anything of that kind is done

[grim star]

@little trellis ok, so, how do you further yourself for DS?

[little trellis]

Flask is just more lightweight than Django

[grim star]

Or machine learning?

[little trellis]

Start getting a feel for analyzing data first before any ML stuff

[grim star]

I’ve used/familiar with React, Vue and now I’m liking python

[little trellis]

Good, a solid thing for you to do would be to build a simple CRUD app with React or Vue as the front end and Python via Flask as the backend

That will teach you a lot

[grim star]

I’ve looked at Tinker and Kivy, and it seems more like a JS framework with how things are laid out with styling and defining things

@little trellis so, on the backend, would that be just to access the info entered from the front?

A todo app is so over used, it makes you over look it. A to do app makes more sense when learning JS or React

[little trellis]

@grim star that would be a normal use case as the backend server. Maybe do something where you build an API with flask and python that lets the front end access some data and then display it. Something like Covid cases

[grim star]

I’m getting closer to learning how to use info from a Dict to “display” on the front, I haven’t gotten to that yet tho

@little trellis

@little trellis so, for info for COVId like that, I would need a “modul”?

[little trellis]

@grim star that’s too far ahead then. Are you following a course?

[grim star]

@little trellis yes, it’s a 9 hour course on SkillShare by Kalob Tallen

@little trellis I’ve also watched Traversy Media, he’s great

[little trellis]

Okay keep following that. Try a few others. And then once you have a grip of the basics see if you can make a small all on your own of any kind

[grim star]

@little trellis ok great, should I know moduls well for ML or DS?

[little trellis]

Unfortunately I have to go but feel free to message the help channels here or me directly at some point. Data quest is a good place to learn about python for DS. Follow their analyst course

[grim star]

The basics, kinda reminds me of how JavaScript is. So it’s helped to catch on more

@little trellis THANK YOU!!!

[little trellis]

@grim star no problem

Good luck!

[covert vector]

yesterday i asked if there are any beginner computer jobs

i can write python code

but not advanced code

i know classes, fucntions, ifs, loops, class inheritance, and file input output

basically beginner stuff

i want to learn more of course

[edgy onyx]

You can try to apply for apprenticeship!

@covert vector

[novel crag]

how old are you mike?

if you're not yet at college age you should definitely go for an apprenticeship

[somber mural]

I have the same questions as @covert vector

How do I get interships and apprenticeships

[covert vector]

i am not 18 yet i am 17

i could apply

for job

[cobalt bramble]

Hey guys

I'm looking to help someone with coding a project/job they're working on

does anyone need help? I'm trying to get experience

[novel crag]

@cobalt bramble what's wrong with your own?

out of interest

[vapid jay]

Alright excuse my language but

How the fuck do you get a job within analytics or analyst roles with a degree in business and no experience

Do I need to go back and get my computer science degree? Is that even enough?

[mortal wedge]

Entry level just really sucks right now

[white karma]

Are they just scrutinizing everyone that much harder or do they simply not have the positions to fill?

[mortal wedge]

They don't have the positions to fill, and whenever they do they are so flooded by applicants that they exercise any tool they have to weed people out

[white karma]

Oof

[shadow moss]

as someone who helps in hiring, multiple issues exist with entry level hiring, mostly driven by COVID-19 (my POV is as American)

1. Many companies are cutting back hiring in general

2. With many companies still being remote, it's hard to train up entry level workers so they are not hiring them and electing to hire people with experience

3. With so many people out of work, sooooo much boot camp or self taught people are popping up that any entry level that gets open is just FLOODED, not to mention recent college grads had issues getting hire so they are on the market which means companies will take college grads over non college grads in 99% of cases

[gilded valley]

anecdotal, but I know a bunch of recent university graduates who had jobs lined up that have now been cancelled

[shadow moss]

TL;DR: it's terrible market for entry level, I wouldn't do paid boot camp right now until further clarity around COVID-19 and economy

[hard totem]

I don’t know any good programmer who finished boot camp

[mortal wedge]

Yeah, I had a few interviews cancelled

nearer the start of covid

[hard totem]

I think now it’s better situation than three months ago. I have more offers on LinkedIn

[mortal wedge]

The market reacts poorly to instability. Things are pretty unstable right now, but companies have had time to adapt to it.

[white karma]

When I started learning python I knew it would be a rocky climb to getting a job, guess now that climb is now at a 90° angle

[mortal wedge]

I think Rabbit hit the nail on the head though, especially with entry level positions just not translating well to starting remotely.

[shadow moss]

my post was strictly entry level

[thick lance]

LuL, no good programmers with boot camp or self thought? So you think a university degree is kind of the minimum?

[shadow moss]

if you have experience it varies in how active job market is by various factors, industry, location

and I'm not saying Degree > Boot Camp or anything but when every job opening has 2000 applicants, degree is safe way to weed out people

[hard totem]

No, I think that many people from psychology or sociology do boot camps and try to be good programmer, they are not.

[mortal wedge]

I have a degree and I'm self-taught

My degree gets me the interview, being self-taught passes the interview

[thick lance]

That’s true, but still at the end it’s about the Charakter. At least that’s my hope, otherwise my whole work and spend time in learning python is...for nothing 😅

[mortal wedge]

I get it, I sympathize

[shadow moss]

at this point, in United States (not going to speak for other places), I wouldn't do a paid boot camp, there are swarms of college grad who will push you out, that's my advice, you do what you want

[hard totem]

Are you talking about us or eu market?

[thick lance]

I’m in EU

But I think, wherever you are, it’s kind of hard nowadays

[mortal wedge]

The US is hit harder by covid stuff, although so is the UK

Getting a job without experience is just terrible, generally speaking

People are much more willing to have a conversation with you after you have some experience

[thick lance]

That’s true, I’ll sign up for that

[mortal wedge]

But without experience, you're a risk in their eyes.

[thick lance]

Otherwise you can see it as a possibility to educate a loyal member

[mortal wedge]

I was not comfortable enough to work for this kind of company, but maybe it's better suited to someone... some companies if you have the basics are willing to pay you to take their training course/boot camp. They also help you find different companies and they contract you out. The downside is that you're not paid that well when there's no work (but you're still paid) and that you're locked into a 2+ year contract with them.

[white karma]

Sounds like a devil deal

[mortal wedge]

When I got really desperate I was tempted

[thick lance]

Aren’t there good chances to Freelance?

[white karma]

How else are you expected to gain experience without a job? Open source?

[mortal wedge]

Freelancers are generally expected to know more than the average person in that field and you'll be spending a lot of your time hunting down contracts/gigs/marketing yourself

[thick lance]

I see

[mortal wedge]

A degree/masters program shows experience, open source helps.

Internships go a long way

[hard totem]

I think degree it is not important, but important that you are familiar with technology and you do something connected to programming. I think if you whole life do something else for example psychology, history and now you want to be a programmer after boot camp, maybe you will, but medium level is your sky and many people with degree will see this working with you.

[thick lance]

Still, if you get a job with a boot camp and work there for like 5 years...I think you’re kind of equal with a degrees one

[mortal wedge]

The more experience you have, the less a degree matters

[hard totem]

Sorry, you cannot change your mind and way of thinking

[stable cipher]

medium level is your sky and many people with degree will see this working with you
what are you saying here? that people who don't get degrees or program for a long time cannot be as good as others?

[white karma]

@mortal wedge What sort of companies do that boot camp/contract?

[thick lance]

And you spent. A year less than a masters degree

[mortal wedge]

It's still pretty important if you have less than 2 years experience

[stable cipher]

Sorry, you cannot change your mind and way of thinking
untrue, it also doesn't take a change in the way of thinking to be good at programming

[thick lance]

@hard totem this is not true, if you’re not able to change how you think, you won’t progress in no field of life

[stable cipher]

you're being pretty inflammatory without backing up what you're saying with experience, research or background

[mortal wedge]

I can't think of the exact company names, but companies in big data and programming

[gilded valley]

The US is hit harder by covid stuff, although so is the UK
@mortal wedge
The economy is very globalized. How hard a country was hit doesn't matter too much for job prospects I feel

[mortal wedge]

Maybe, maybe not. I couldn't say definitively.

[gilded valley]

Theres people in this server with no degree in senior positions

[mortal wedge]

Yeah. A degree is invaluable for getting interviews, especially for entry level. But you're the main limiting factor for how far you go after that.

Go, fight, win, etc.

[gilded valley]

Yeah. You're objectively wrong about a degree capping you at mid level positions

[hard totem]

No degree != that they have nothing in common with programming or algorithms

[gilded valley]

Just sounds like petty elitism

No degree != that they have nothing in common with programming or algorithms
@hard totem
No idea what you mean

[mortal wedge]

You need a way to get the knowledge/expertise and you need a way to show it. A degree is a convenient way to do both, but not the only way.

Although some companies/industries really do love their phds for even entry level work...

shakes his fist at spacex and masimo

[gilded valley]

I don't even agree that a degree does that. A cs degree teaches very few software dev skills

[stable cipher]

@hard totem it sounds like you're trying to find some way to feel superior to others, but programming is just a skill, like any other trade

being good at it doesn't make you better than anybody else, they can learn just like you did

[mortal wedge]

I think computer science is unique as a field in that as long as you can get the expertise and show it then you can get a job. Every field is not like this.

[gilded valley]

Imo someone self taught and enthusiastic is waaaaay better than an average CS grad

[hard totem]

Nvm, do boot camps, I don’t have time and prove you anything

[mortal wedge]

Sure, but let's compare that to an enthusiastic CS grad

[gilded valley]

Nvm, do boot camps, I don’t have time and prove you anything
@hard totem
You don't have the ability either

[mortal wedge]

I get what you're saying though

[hard totem]

At some level you will see difference between people

[mortal wedge]

I will say that as an industry, especially for tech companies, you knowing your shit is more important than where you got it.

[stable cipher]

I disagree, I've worked with people with degrees and people from bootcamps and wasn't able to tell the difference

I didn't know their background until well after I had worked with them

[mortal wedge]

Because it's easier to test people in CS than it is other industries

(I'm not actually sure what argument kob is making)

[stable cipher]

I don't think that's really true either

other engineering fields have very standard tests in order to get licensed to do the work

[gilded valley]

People doing boot camps, or just without degrees, are not competent enough to rise past mid level - and are worse than those with degrees

Thats what I understand

[mortal wedge]

Aside from licenses, I mean

[shadow moss]

there are companies that will limit how high someone can rise without degrees

[mortal wedge]

In my experience, in engineering industries outside of CS, recent relevant experience was all they were interested in.

[gilded valley]

That's a company limit, not a skill limit

[mortal wedge]

CS was the only industry that gave me a chance.

[white karma]

I feel if a company limits you on how high you can get that it’s within your right to find a company that doesn’t

[shadow moss]

sure

[mortal wedge]

A degree is extremely valuable, I don't think anyone is arguing against that. But in terms of the quality of work someone is able to output, I don't think there's anything intrinsic about having a degree that would change that.

Maybe some people will see it differently, but... don't work there

Maybe it's a harder hill to climb, idk

and we're back

[lunar wadi]

Hey

[mortal wedge]

Hello

[lunar wadi]

Oops

wc

wrong chat

gtg

[white karma]

So yeah

Not having a degree most likely puts you at a disadvantage without experience to back you up instead

[mortal wedge]

Absolutely

It doesn't make you less of a person or less of a coder, but it's a disadvantage

[white karma]

I revel in the challenge but damn if it doesn’t beat you down every so often

[grim star]

What type of Bootcamp, or name of a Bootcamp is good? I’m in Fort Worth Texas

[mortal wedge]

It gets depressing

[stable cipher]

look for ones with lots of good reviews and a job placement program

[grim star]

@stable cipher what are names or type of keywords to search for?

[stable cipher]

I'm not sure, never searched for one

[lapis swallow]

Any good jobs for a high school student?

remote preferably

[grim star]

As far as gear, does anyone know if the 4 port 13in MacBook Pro has....1 fan or 2?

[vapid jay]

never used a macbook maybe google the specs?

[mortal wedge]

@lapis swallow Not really

[opal perch]

can the mods just put that somewhere in careers, to stop asking for remote job as a high school student, I see it literally every day.like the chances of 1 are almost none

[blazing dew]

If you want to suggest a change to the server, I suggest suggesting in #community-meta.

[lapis swallow]

Alright thanks Ultimate

can the mods just put that somewhere in careers, to stop asking for remote job as a high school student, I see it literally every day.like the chances of 1 are almost none
Theres no harm in asking.

[white karma]

Maybe an FAQ channel?

[shadow moss]

Wouldn't matter, people wouldn't read

[little trellis]

High school remote. Go try and work as customer support for a game server provider. Or better yet start your own. It’s cheap to start and you’ll learn a lot.

[opal perch]

Theres no harm in asking.
@lapis swallow There isn't any harm

unfortunately rabbit is right, people wouldnt read the faq until someone tells them to go read it

[vapid jay]

Every entry level position has over 500 applicants

weirdly i feel those ppl r also the ppl who dont read the rules

It’s absurd

I could go back to college for data science but I feel like working in the field I’m in which is cyber security sales for AT&T I can just take the nine degree certifications and study on my own and create my own projects

[white karma]

To be that 1 in 500 being chosen sounds pretty nice to me

[vapid jay]

I feel like if any field this is the field to have experience over degree

A lot of these applicants probably have data science degrees but do they have much experience probably not

Had no idea everyone wanted to be in this related field lol

[white karma]

I had the idea of doing it, until I was told I’d need a degree to have more than a snowball’s chance in hell

[vapid jay]

Yeah why don’t you get your degree?

There’s always a possibility of you learning these programs on your own and creating your own projects and presenting them to a start up

You could also teach yourself how to create apps

If I didn’t have a degree and was working I’d 100% do that

[white karma]

I’m not in a financial situation to where I can just go and earn a degree, unfortunately. Self teaching web development is what I’m currently working on

*while working

[mortal wedge]

Just have to do whatever you can

[vapid jay]

4 year degrees from community colleges are not as expensive

The government gives so much money allocated towards college

Everyone can afford to get a degree if they want

that depends on the country u live in

cuz different countries have different policies

That’s true totally forgot about that. Long day sorry ha

[lyric barn]

What do you guys think about a master’s degree in practical cs after a bachelor’s degree in business administration? Will it be a huge disadvantage? Is it better to do another bachelor’s degree in pure cs?

[crude crown]

Not a clear answer on that... personally I wouldn't waste my time getting another bachelor's and would just try to catch on the fundamentals while studying in the master's, it seems to me it would be a more efficient use of my time (but be ready to say goodbye to a good amount of free time).

As for being an an disadvantage... in the job market it wouldn't be none provided you know your stuff

[lavish stone]

ah yes carrers

iv always wanted to be an eginnner or somthing

im new topython thoguh

although my math teacher does python

i have used aurdwinos before

[lyric barn]

@crude crown there will be one ‘catching up semester’ before the master’s starts, so that’s good, but still will be a a lot of work I think! So you’re saying that after the degree, Skills and experience are basically all that matters?

[crude crown]

@vapid jay behave yourself.

[vapid jay]

?

[crude crown]

@lyric barn It's not all but it's a good 50% when you're looking into an entry-level gig imo

[lyric barn]

Ok that sounds good to me

I’m just worried that companies will prefer full cs majors

[crude crown]

afterwards on your mid-level gig, it's all about skills and experience

well... they do have an advantage at entry level gigs

but again, you should also think about your time investiment... if you're OK going with a second bachelor's, go for it

[lyric barn]

I will only do 1 degree after this one and I think masters in practical cs will be better than bachelors

Cs bachelors + Masters is not an option for me

[mortal wedge]

Masters in practical cs is what I would do. Less time spent, you're getting high level stuff, learn the lower level stuff on your own

[hardy briar]

guys, what's the best platform for freelancing?

python

[little trellis]

@lyric barn I think that Business Bachelors and CS Masters is a good combo. I only got a business bachelors (CS minor) and was able to transition over to Data Engineer after a few years of self teaching, integrating learnings into my job, and switching to a new company. I imagine a masters would put you ahead of where I started

[lyric barn]

Thanks guys, I’m really motivated for the master’s, nearly done with my business degree and it bores the shit out of me lmao

[little trellis]

I've found a ton of value in it even being an engineer now. It helps a ton in the data field to be able to talk to the business members and understand where they're coming from. Plus if you have for instance marketing or finance knowledge, you can always go into an engineering position with a focus in that area which will help you stand out a lot.

What area are you looking to go in after @lyric barn?

[crude crown]

might be interesting in particular for some fintech companies

[lyric barn]

Congrats on the transition, sounds really interesting!
Even tho practical cs has less mathematics and theoretical informatics, I guess it’s a good starting point 🙂

[little trellis]

I think a good portion of the data science jobs out there are just predicting financial outcomes or the propensity for someone to convert from some marketing channel.

Thanks! It's been a good ride so far!

[lyric barn]

I get that it CAN be an advantage, but even tho my grades are really good in business, I think my knowledge so far is bad because I’m not personally interested in the topics

But I do have a basic understanding which might be helpful

[little trellis]

Yeah for sure, I felt that too. To be fair, who really knows what they want to study fully when they first pick their major? Business always sounds good because who doesn't want to be an entrepreneur or if not it's at least stable.

[lyric barn]

That’s so true

I had a few cs courses in my bachelors and I experienced for the first time that studying can be fun lmao

[little trellis]

Haha yeah, I relate to that haha. I should have just taken the hint that I loved that python homework and would help everyone around me and changed majors then. No big deal in the end. A decent degree is the main objective. I think most people find what they actually like once they're on the job.

[lyric barn]

Yea I think there will always be a way to reach your goals no matter what you did in the past...

Also I had the exact same experience with weekly python homeworks lol

[little trellis]

The masters seem to have a good program?

[lyric barn]

It’s almost purely elective courses

[little trellis]

Interesting, so a lot of choice then?

[lyric barn]

Yea it’s a 110 sites pdf sheet of courses

I have no clue

[little trellis]

Sounds like decision overload haha

[lyric barn]

Probably should try to specialize in a certain field

[little trellis]

Any gravitation towards a particular one?

[lyric barn]

I think AI, machine learning etc is a really interesting field

But maybe not the best idea without a solid foundation

[little trellis]

It's approachable to start as an engineering focused analyst and move up. If you can write solid Python and SQL you'll stand out as an analyst and can move from there.

[daring lodge]

Are we allowed to sell scripts in this server?

[lyric barn]

I think we’re spamming the channel too much lol I’ll add you as a friend

[little trellis]

Haha sounds good

[shadow moss]

@lyric barn it also depends on where you live and cost of college, in United States, Bachelor in Business Admin and Masters in CS would likely put you into serious debt that may not pay back. Also, depending on master program, they may not accept you with Bachelor in Business Admin

[void star]

test

[vapid jay]

Is anyone studying cs or software engineering at a canadian university?

kinda ya

r u planning to go to one? @vapid jay

I mean I reside in Canada and I'm thinking of Cs or SE as a potential major @vapid jay

What school you go to

its not a bad choice imo

lots of the undergrad stuff is pretty similar

for me its ubc

UBC cs?

yeah

Damn what was the admission's requirements high school

high af this yr

apparently with uoft they r making a direct entry

oh high school

Yeah lol

u see the thing about ubc cs is that u have to first get into ubc science

then they look at ur first yr uni grades

to see if u qualify for cs

So cs is second year or smt?

yeah

ur basically applying for ur specialization after first yr

i dont think high school requirements were absurdly high tho

cuz u just had to get into facalty of science

Then how come there's a high school admissions requirements

oh thats just to get admitted into ubc

like into their faculty of science

Oof I c

That's tough then other unis you learn in your first year

ya some ppl say its annoying

thats true

How's the program then

its actually pretty nice

the first yr programming class some ppl say its rough

cuz u use a functional programming language

which is different then what ppl r used to

What's that

ever heard of a language called racket

Nope

cuz i never did until i took the course

lol

its kinda like haskell

i guess the pain is that they want u to use recursion to go through loops

i guess the hard part is just the recursion, trees and graphs for most ppl

but most ppl do fine

Haskell I heard of that

Interesting

Do you reside in BC?

nope lol

Ontario?

nope alberta lol

Oh oops

What was your top 6 average

In high school

for high school?

Yeah

so i did full ib

so they used by ib marks

Oh damn Full IB

its nice cuz u can take credit for courses

Don't you learn integrations in grade 12

yeah

Ah i c that's pretty nice

but first yr calc is more than what u learn in highschool

Wdym?

thats what gets ppl

there is more content

with a bit of proofs

[tiny fog]

[vapid jay]

Interesting I ended up not applying IB

i guess what most ppl complain is that the first yr math average is 60%

! damn

but there is a huge load of ppl

Uni calc is that hard

?

so it doesnt necessarily mean u will get 60%

lots of ppl do well and some ppl dont do well

What was your IB mark?

i think i had 38 or sth

And I heard that usually IB students get their IB marks converted to their regular provincial marks

Is that true?

like ubc does that?

from my experience ib marks had a seperate scale

Oh i c

What should I do to prepare for grade 12 math

Even though I reside in a different province that you

and I'm not doing IB

i reccommend doing calc

if ur school offers it

Well I kinda have to take Calc for uni apps

oh lol

Does Alberta have a functions course for grade 12?

yeah

its a functions thing

and there is a calc thing

2 seperate classes

Any data management course?

our school had a cs course

but ppl said it was bad

Did you take it?

nope

lol

i was actually thinking about doing engineering

like electrical engineering at waterloo but i picked ubc cs lol

Did you get in EE at Waterloo

yeah

I know CS at Waterloo is so hard to get in

WHoaaaa shocked

but my parents convienced me to do ubc cs

Why so?

they said electrical eng jobs r rare in canada

electrical/computer eng students end up doing cs jobs when they graduate

Isn't that true for most engineering jobs

i guess

they were like if ur gonna end iwth a cs job just do cs

that's true