Do you plan to go to university/college?
#career-advice
gilded valley
sick stratus
Yes.
gilded valley
In that case - i'd suggest just making things that you find fun
distant crow
ok, so keep learning the patterns, but it sounds like you should pick up a project or two
sick stratus
ok, so keep learning the patterns, but it sounds like you should pick up a project or two
@distant crow Yes I've worked on some projects and have them on GitHub but they're quite general purpose again.
gilded valley
Just make some projects in Django/Flask/FastAPI/Kivy/Discord/Whatever
distant crow
find a specific task
gilded valley
or learn another language
distant crow
find something interesting to do or achieve, and build it
sick stratus
I've been learning JS for a few months to have basic frontend skills, but I'd prefer sticking with Python.
gilded valley
if you want a career- you're pretty much never going to be sticking to just python
distant crow
if you want to develop both JS and Python skills, build a web app with a python backend
sick stratus
So general advice at the moment is to:
- learn advanced Python
- look through the technologies or stacks wanted in software engineering listings
- work on some projects
- discover software engineer subfields
distant crow
I usually have several side projects ongoing, and most of them are a mix of JS interface and Python backend
sick stratus
They do mesh well together.
mortal wedge
Yeah, they do
distant crow
I think I shared this one before, It's a dialogue tree editor for a game engine. It's intended for use to make visual novels or dialogue-heavy RPGs: http://quack.games/
This is a JS frontend, including the node editor, and a python backend. the python is needed to parse the dialogue syntax
this was a recent side project I did. It's a nice mix of JS and Python
gilded valley
IMO none of that is great advice. You're better off just working on fun things for now, you'll learn theory and about the industry during your first year of university. What would be far more useful is if you learn the practical side of things (building cool stuff) now, then in university you can learn about the industry whilst looking for internships and speaking to people
make sure you know git
sick stratus
Thank you. So I guess I'll just continue working on some Python projects and learning along the way and continuing with JavaScript then.
distant crow
my current side project, is a little robot arm that's got a web interface. I'll be using ROS2 (which is available in python), and giving it a web interface. I recently had to reverse-engineer the USB protocol used in a servo control board, but used Python to write new drivers for it: https://medium.com/meseta-robots/witmotion-servo-control-reverse-engineering-d5acf7ce528f
sweet shore
Yeah, focus more on projects/problems. The title really is irrelevant
distant crow
these are some examples of things you can do in Python. None of this is my day job, just fun side projects
but, my previous side project got me my last job
sweet shore
Python for drivers? That is weird
distant crow
USB HID actually, so no actual drivers are needed, but something still needs to form the right data that is sent over it
sweet shore
Ah
gilded valley
Doing hackathons or stuff like the code jam from this server is a good way to get experience of working with other peole
and they're often very fun
sweet shore
I assumed some C magic lol
sick stratus
Will consider, thank you - I'm looking at it right now.
Looks like we're at the tail end of one at the moment.
distant crow
nah, USB HID doesn't need drivers, the OS has low-level support for it. this is what makes most USB input devices plug-and-play these days. but something needs to send the right data to make it do things
sick stratus
I'll make sure to check in then.
sweet shore
Fwiw, there are lots of hackathons going on with the pandemic and what not going on
I look forward to hacktoberfest this year
distant crow
if you're into game dev, there are game jams going on all the time
(game jams being a type of hackathon)
sick stratus
Python isn't the best for game dev, and I'm not too interested in that, but I'll stay tuned for a more traditional hackathon.
sweet shore
You could always generate a hack-a-thon
distant crow
itch.io has a big calendar of it, and you can see that there's currently something like 82 game jams going on right now https://itch.io/jams
sick stratus
In the meantime - I'm off to work on some projects, as suggested. I'll save looking deeper into software engineering subfields till university I suppose.
Thanks a ton everyone for helping me out here, I really appreciate it.
sweet shore
It's a little bit of work, but it's pretty easy in the whole scope of event planning
distant crow
yeah, it's not that great for game dev (unless you want to get into Godot, or an MMO backend - remember, Eve Online's backend is Python)
but, just to illustrate how prevalent hackathons are, I just don't know of a hackathon calendar like itch.io has for game jams
sweet shore
I'm planning a rust hack night right now actually lol
edgy onyx
@sweet shore a bunch of folks I got to know here and I got together to code some rust once the code jam is over, actually :)
Maybe you wanna join us ^^
sweet shore
I would be glad to @edgy onyx
old silo
Hello I am 18years old I wnt to build my career in ai I am not good at studies but wnt to get ai job as fast as I can I am in class12th plz guide me what I can do
Plz ping me when someone will answer
edgy onyx
@sweet shore Sent you a friend request so I can DM you the invite ^^
sweet shore
@old silo If you want to work as a general developer who incorporates AI into products, take a look at TensorFlow or PyTorch and start playing around. Otherwise, you are probably going to have to go down the AI research and development role, which requires some pretty serious math and a Masters or PhD in Computer Science
@old silo The best advise I can give anyone who wants to learn something is to actually build things with it, so find things you think can be predicted with ML algos that exist today. There are branches of this field that are more on the Computer Vision (openGL openCV stuff) or Natural Language side, but generally, when people say "AI", they really mean ML, and usually that means making educated predictions (which means training models)
harsh vault
Hi, this year i'll go to a preparatory class ( google trad from france school) and i'm very passionated by machine learning/deep learning or even computer vision, so i would like to know the better way to success, i mean idk if go to ML school, can make me stand out from other,
stable cipher
getting experience would be the best way to make you stand out, for which there's some good advice just above your message
harsh vault
like create long time project ?
stable cipher
yes, that's a good example
it's also impressive if you can deploy an AI/ML model and do "online" predictions as new information is found
true harness
huh?
granite swift
Is there anyone from Jönköping, Sweden here?
half minnow
Whats the job market like for software engineers right now in the US
hoary hollow
Can anyone recommend me a place where i can sell web scrapers/crawlers
Except fiverr as i already do it there but i don't get many orders/ only 5 star reviews tho'
shadow moss
Vegeta, depends on your focus and experience along with region, I'd say 2/5 or 3/5 for anyone with experience. 0/5 for no experience
Jr Developers require monitoring and it's hard to do remotely, also companies are wanting more senior people because if they are hiring in this environment, THEY REALLY NEED SOMEONE
mortal wedge
^
Hiring is starting to pick back up a little bit, but they're still not going to take on someone for an entry level role starting remote
white karma
I am willing to show up in person in full hazmat
mortal wedge
They might take you on if your credentials were stellar because you have internships, are a recent college grad, and have a perfect gpa
white karma
I have none of those but I do have a willingness to learn and an impeccable work ethic
shadow moss
Coldwind, the Sr. Developer is not
white karma
I’m too far in now to give up, baby!
gilded valley
As someone who's currently doing a virtual internship - junior people 100% ought to be supervised, a huge amount of interns are literally just spending most of their day watching TV in bed. I get the feeling it's the same for the grads here as well
white karma
What else do you expect them to do? Work?
/s
obtuse thorn
Yeah, I chose the worst time to start considering this as a career
haha
especially considering the 5 year degree plus additional training I already have for something else
oopsies
shadow moss
alot of that TV watching is there isn't work to give to the interns
we just didn't hire any
obtuse thorn
I used to get pretty jealous of professional programmers. My friend's first job let him work remote for 3/5 days a week. Starting salary super high. Oh wait, I still get jealous of that
curious about: Do employers like seeing many projects in related topics? I.e would a company hiring someone to build scrapers and web apis prefer seeing a bunch of scrapers and web apis that candidate made? Or would employers typically like to see diversity/flexibility?
And are personal projects often looked at for development jobs? I am currently a programming instructor and no one ever cares when I link my projects (I realize this is a very different field)
distant crow
definitely want to see relevant projects
I look at personal projects if the candidate doesn't have relevant previous job , though sometimes a project come sup in interviews, but mostly it's my curiosity
some of it is trying to get the candidate to talk about something they're passionate about, and seeing how much of the technical detail they can get into - what did they learn, why did they do it, what were the biggest failures
these are often part of the "cultural fit" assessment, which is separate from the technical and motivation stuff
though I guess it might also be part of motivation. if you're into coding projects, then maybe this isn't just a job so that you can make money to live out your dreams of a kayaking adventure
(actual situation that has come up before)
we still hired the guy, he was good, but unsurprisingly he left after a year
I have nothing against other hobbies, but I find people who do coding for fun are motivated to learn new skills, and their career development goals line up very well with personal interests, and so tend to be strong self-starters; but it's just a correlation that's interesting to note, that's all
half minnow
Makes sense @shadow moss
vapid jay
I currently am studying python through a course, after this I will be learning SQL. I have a business marketing degree. Will I be able to get an entry level Analyst role? My goal is to do marketing analytics but I know it takes a lot of time. I’m just wondering if taking these courses and presenting the projects I did for them will be enough
I feel like since I really want to be in an analytics role and not coding I don’t see why I would need to go back and get my data science degree and have 0 experience
Any advice?
obtuse thorn
ty very much for your answer, it was very thorough.
My big conflict is my degree is in a very unrelated field and I am unsure that my skills are desirable enough without a CS degree to be considered for many jobs. I have of course heard many stories about people getting on self education.
Maybe it is a bit of "imposter syndrome," I'll keep applying, but I fear my degree is actually what is holding me back. It does not help that where I am everyone lists their requirements as like 5+ years professional experience plus masters in related field for the most entry level python positions.
I am in a similar situation as the above^ "Aviation" degree, which is like 50% business, 40% low level engineering stuff, then another 10% sprinkled in of technology.
vapid jay
Would aviation not be more engineering? Rather than programming?
obtuse thorn
there is 0 programming sadly
But it is over now haha
and Ive realized a bit late that I enjoy programming more than flying
I had one course where I had to install linux on a raspberry pi, but that is it xD and basic circuitry stuff
I am trying to transfer from hobbyist programmer to professional, but I am finding it very difficult to see where my skills are even at
vapid jay
If I were you I’d apply for start up companies. You may not know the exact field you want to be in but with your background you will at least be put in a high position
Either way- all of us have an advantage. Many talk about coding but not many people actually go through with it or have knowledge of it
obtuse thorn
I hope so. I have been looking at startups.
A lot of them are hiring for "senior" positions asking for a B.S and 2+ years experience programming.
This scares me more, like... That's a lot of responsibility haha
that is true
vapid jay
Yeah that’s what they say but at the end of the day they are a start up and that means you can convince them that you can do the job and they don’t actually need someone with that much experience
What about supply chain analytics
obtuse thorn
I am very interested in going into various django dev. But I also enjoy data analysis, and that is more related to my degree. Would love to go into ML but I do not think that is realistic without a cs degree haha
I dont know enough about job types in programming 😄
^I have the experience for a lot of the startups, but I am scared thinking of designing all their stuff and not learning much about professional environments and being able to move on
vapid jay
Then start with a larger company
obtuse thorn
haha, words of wisdom.
I have been applying, but over time it hurts my confidence more. I am currently a programming instructor and many jobs specifically list that they do not care about that type of experience.
vapid jay
What do they want then?
obtuse thorn
The problem where I live as well is there are so many very qualified programmers. So it is hard to be competitive, I feel.
Tesla does not want me haha.
vapid jay
Are you in Austin? Lol
obtuse thorn
That is what I am unsure about. The expectations of large companies seems very unrealistic to me. Many requesting masters and many years experience
I am in silicon valley
vapid jay
Move to austin, work for Tesla here, then move back and save money while you are at it
Lol
obtuse thorn
I probably just need more confidence, realistically.
haha, that was just an example xD would be nice not to spend 6 car payments a month to live in a tiny apartment
obtuse thorn
my fiancee makes too much money here for that to be reasonable atm
vapid jay
If it’s really what you wanna do I personally would apply at the best job I could get wherever it may be
obtuse thorn
ironically I would probably have to get a pretty decent job here to be able to afford to move LOL
vapid jay
What are you currently doing
obtuse thorn
I am a programming instructor while I complete training to become a pilot, but after completing my degree I have been realizing that programming is a viable career path for me (programming for about 6 years now)
also love programming haha
it is a tough spot to be in
I am unfortunately at a point in programming where I feel like I know nothing, but it is also very slow to learn new things as I have many of the basics down. All I can do now is learn new frameworks and fine tune my knowledge of the basics. Which makes things feel more stagnant
I'll just keep pumping out projects and maybe that will catch someone's eye one of these days while applying xD
unkempt wasp
What kind of projects are you working on?
I am unfortunately at a point in programming where I feel like I know nothing, but it is also very slow to learn new things as I have many of the basics down.
we all feel this way some point of time.
obtuse thorn
I have about 4 django projects active, react site, apis, I have a stock analysis app I am using for day trading, web scrapers, discord bots, a few ML apps using KNN and decision trees, small projects to pad a resume: random algorithms, code wars challenges ive authored. Some other scattered stuff, but that is most of it
5 django projects including this code jam haha
and then all my non-python stuff (mostly just unity dev)
unkempt wasp
Is everything on Github
obtuse thorn
yes, but many are private haha, I cannot showcase the code for my production django or my trading app, the rest is mostly on there
unkempt wasp
Then you have a decent portfolio. You just to find a entry point that's all
obtuse thorn
I usually add "additional projects available upon request" in my cover letter, but I dont know how many people even read the CV lol
unkempt wasp
vapid jay
What are the main differences in programs when it comes to Analytics and analyst jobs
obtuse thorn
didnt know that was a thing
vapid jay
And wait I might need you to tutor me
I’m taking python rn then I was going to do sql and R
Better question- how long is this going to take me
obtuse thorn
haha
unkempt wasp
obtuse thorn
that depends on motivation. I found in about 6 months I was able to create some cool things just off of self teaching.
it depends what you would like to use it for as well. I always knock R as being "worse" python haha, but I don't know anything.
For basic operations and analytics, the math skills will be more important. My friend just started python three weeks ago and she is already at a level where she can write basic applications and is creating fairly clean, scalable code.
I am on many job platforms rn, just gonna keep applying.
I am trying to figure out if I am even qualified. Or if I am just embarrassing myself by applying all these places
unkempt wasp
Oh you are qualified.
vapid jay
Yeah I’m good at math. I remember most of this stuff from information systems in business technology course I took in college
I don’t want to program. I just need to understand how to analyze it
unkempt wasp
You are what most companies need: self learning, patient, motivated, problem solving
vapid jay
And I don’t feel like getting my masters lol especially since everything is online... what’s even the point
Thank you. Yes I hope self taught gets me creditability
I’m joking I know you weren’t talking about me lol
Tesla is expanding I would apply for a different branch if I were you
unkempt wasp
What college gives you is a network of people. And a brand name.
And companies filter out people based on that sadly 😦
obtuse thorn
haha, I brought up tesla because they are hiring for everything imaginable
and NASA, but im not that brave
obtuse thorn
If you want to accelerate your learning, use it in the way you will be using it.
If you will be writing programs for analysis, do that when you can. If you will mostly just need to understand code, perhaps consider looking at open source projects and trying to understand them (when you feel as though you have the experience to interpret such things)
LOL, Nasa hires based on favors xD so screw them lol
ty both for the discussion. I will keep applying. It would legit be a dream come true for something I enjoy so much to become a career
unkempt wasp
ya best of luck
summer roost
a lot of getting hired is just applying to a lot of places.
interviewing is a skill that takes practice to improve, like anything else
obtuse thorn
yeah, ty. I feel that I interview somewhat well. Need to apply around some more
Most of my friends who graduated cs were unable to find work, which scares me as well
vapid jay
I interview great and my secret is constantly putting the interviewer in a position to talk about themselves
unkempt wasp
lol
vapid jay
If I had to guess- it’s because they want to see diversity
They want to see that people can be both left brain and right brain lol
They want the impossible done! Haha
And I know it’s funny but it works everytime
obtuse thorn
I usually just tell them what they want while being honest, usually works xD
summer roost
part of it is also that the interviewers are people, too, and most likely people for whom interviewing is not their favorite part of their jobs, and asking them to talk about parts of their job that they like more is more fun for them than actually interviewing you, heh
obtuse thorn
my interviews have always been pretty lazy though, never programming position
vapid jay
I think also whatever you get hired for is not what you’ll just be doing
obtuse thorn
the aviation thing usually takes over conversation haha
vapid jay
You always do more than what you applied for
And if you present yourself as really good at 1 thing- they see it as a disadvantage
My current job I’m doing 3 other major things they promised we would never have to don
Do*
If you get an interview it’s because you are qualified. If you don’t get the job it’s because they don’t like you point blank
So if you get an interview go into as you already have the job. The confidence radiates
obtuse thorn
Ty for the advice, very helpful
thank you all.
I was gonna make a script that applies for me, but against TOS and I cant afford to get IP banned on every job site haha
Usually interviews go well for me. I have never gotten one for programming though. I realize this is a bad time to... need a job(?) haha
unkempt wasp
Ya its is bad time 😦
obtuse thorn
luckily I have work, but not something that is sustainable, especially where I live
I can barely afford to be homeless here xD
new question: would it make sense for me to take a non-programming specific job that utilizes some programming? Such an an analyst position that primarily wants to use excel? Or would this not be worth it for finding a programming job?
minor ravine
What will it take to get banned from this server?
minor ravine
But that's not a ban.
obtuse thorn
Just please dont waste admin or mod time, they already do so much for us
annnnd theyre here
open patio
why...?
obtuse thorn
^answer this question correctly if you want to get banned
obtuse thorn
yep
inner wrenBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @minor ravine permanently.
obtuse thorn
that was easy
open patio
nice
obtuse thorn
cool, I hope that was actually their account
very odd
surprisingly polite about it too. Nice to ask first
open patio
lol
lavish geyser
can we delete that message lol
lavish geyser
nice
mortal wedge
There's 3 parts to becoming employed. Getting interviews, nailing interviews, and not getting fired. What's fun is that they all take different skillsets and these skillsets don't necessarily overlap.
obtuse thorn
haha
I enjoy not getting fired
although, that has not stopped others I know from getting some sweet jobs
wispy cape
General question, how early do you guys start looking for jobs when you want to change ?
Like, when you start applying, when do you usually expect to start at your new job ?
(I assume most answers will be "as soon as possible")
vapid jay
I start applying after I’ve been somewhere for atleast a year
wispy cape
I'm asking because I graduate from my masters program in november, and I rejected an offer at my current apprenticeship position because I want some change, and I'm wondering when other people would start applying to jobs if they were in a similar situation
shadow moss
I wouldn't take anything that is happening right now as sign of job future
Depending on area and industry they are in, hiring has either stopped/slowed to crawl/CAN'T FIND ENOUGH PEOPLE
CAN'T FIND is generally at senior level because their demand spiked
summer roost
the usual rule of thumb is not to quit your job until you've got a new job offer already in hand - at least in the US
wispy cape
The pay was good, I just wanted to explore other stuff, also staying meant signing a new (non-student) contract, so leaving again after a few months would have been a huge dick move and I like my department, I really don't want to do them like that
Well, that choice is done, and I have thought about it already, I am leaving
summer roost
I realized that isn't exactly what you asked, but it's sort of the answer to your question - there's a lot less pressure to get a job "as soon as possible" when you already have a steady job - it gives you a lot more freedom to hold out for the right job, instead of just taking the next offer that comes along.
wispy cape
I'm not in the US either, not that it makes the company better in that regard
Also it's really not about the company but the department I am in, it's a huge company's research subsidiary (kinda, not sure about the terms) and I know it's a PITA to open job postings and stuff, if I accepted just to leave again 3 months later, it would have taken them another 9 months to re-open it
summer roost
Well, my second best answer is still "as soon as possible". The longer you can spread your search out, the wider the net you can cast and the better the job you can get
shadow moss
plus if you have a job, you seem more attractive because "Well, they obviously work well enough to keep a job"
I know there is numerous reasons for people to lose jobs that are not "They are bad worker" but recruiters profile like mad
vapid jay
Ok sorry I’m so new to this but everyone is saying how hard it was so they gave up
Is it really THAT hard
summer roost
is what that hard?
white karma
Some people struggle with self teaching
You just gotta keep at it until things click
And they do click
summer roost
It's like learning a foreign language - if you practice at it, you can do it, but it does take practice; you can't learn it by just reading about it, or watching videos.
white karma
^
mortal wedge
Also, it depends on what level you're teaching yourself to
Getting lists and dicts down you can do pretty quickly
Having full control of the ecosystem? You could spend decades doing that
Also, a lot of recruiters/hiring managers will see someone being unemployed as a red flag and expect someone to have ZERO employment gaps in their work history
Imo this is completely unreasonable, but it's naive to think it doesn't happen
vapid jay
I’m not unemployed and I don’t want to program
mortal wedge
But basically, as much as it really really sucks, when things start to go downhill that's when you start applying because if you wait for things to be so bad you quit you kind of shoot yourself in the foot
vapid jay
I want to be in a business or marketing analytics position
mortal wedge
Like data science?
vapid jay
Yes
mortal wedge
Cool. Go for it.
obtuse thorn
I am 100% self taught. It just takes hard work and motivation.
The work is a LOT less hard if you are passionate about what you work on.
For me that meant sharing my code. This is why I make discord bots and web apps, it is very fun for me to have a very visual/interactable product and it still lets me solve new problems on the back end.
If you are committed to learning, it can be pretty fast.
The most I ever learn is building entire projects through tutorials or following along with books/lessons. There are tons of free courses (including courses from ivy league schools) and as long as you are motivated to learn, it can be fairly quick.
There are different levels of knowledge too.
Like I said, my friend is applying Python to her Master's degree in biology. She is already creating functions that are scalable, writing clean code, and understanding the basic data types in just about three weeks, while also doing regular coursework.
She does already use R extensively, but it can be pretty quick to get the basics down.
edgy onyx
If you have fun doing the work you do you won't have worked a single day of your life
or something like that
obtuse thorn
^something like that xD
true harness
I love cs, but studying and getting better sucks
chilly idol
👍 very educational channel
gilded valley
A while ago there was discussion here about whether Covid19 had affected software hiring - and it seems that according to the data, it has had a fairly large detrimental impact
That is only for the UK - but I think it's probably not unreasonable to say that scales out to a global trend. London is a fairly major tech hub
vapid jay
@gilded valley The same trend exists in Denmark, according to the tech people in my network.
just in time for a second wave
rose agate
sup guys, do u know any good python certifications that I can take online and will help me IRL?
knotty stump
what sort of stuff should i focus on for a career in swe?
opal perch
Being friendly, the swedes are friendly
tiny viper
import calendar
print(calendar.weekheader(2))
print()
print(calendar.firstweekday())
print()
print(calendar.month(2020, 3))
print(calendar.monthcalendar(2020, 3))
print()
print(calendar.calendar(2020))
opal perch
?ok @tiny viper
sweet shore
@gilded valley I can confirm that this is happening in the US as well
gilded valley
I've seen others (in this chat) claim otherwise
shadow moss
Again, in US it’s very regional and industry dependent along with experience.
Intern/Jr devs have crazy slowed, medium devs is less but not crazy so. Senior devs are in demand in certain sectors but senior dev demand is always high because demand generally outstrips supply
sweet shore
So, at least what I have seen is still a general "demand" for Sr. devs, but the process to onboard is so slow, there may as well not be a demand. You have to plan a move months in advance right now
shadow moss
?
senior devs take a while to hire sure
they are expensive and can do serious damage so sure, interviewing process is more drawn out
mortal wedge
@gilded valley That jives pretty well with my experience, yeah. Hiring plummeted, but recruiters are starting to reach back out to me regarding stuff I applied to months ago
I'm interviewing for a small team at a large company, and I'm basically being interviewed by every person I'll be interacting with, lol
unreal gate
This is why I make discord | bots and web apps, it is very fun for me to have a very visual/intractable product and it still lets me solve new problems on the back end.
@obtuse thorn great job bud. I'm on the same path and having hard time learning lots of thing but didn't lose motivation yet. my question is what projects have you done as a beginner cause i'm having hard time figuring out what to build as learning and exercise project
obtuse thorn
I did things that interested me, were challenging, but appropriate for my skill level.
Very simple things like a quiz game where you are asked questions on the command line and need to answer with input()
I made some adventure games. I used python for some of my coursework when doing repetitive calculations.
The first big project I did was the discord bot. It was very challenging when I started, I was constantly googling things and trying to understand the docs. Eventually I was able to make it work.
The website Codewars was a huge help as well, even if I could not solve a problem on there, I would unlock solutions and google everything until I understood what the solutions did.
Definitely start with smaller projects first. About a year after making my discord bot I decided to completely rewrite it.
mortal wedge
.
dull wraith
"experience working with large data sets and data-driven decision making who can establish data culture in a new team, and knows how to bring focus and clarity to complicated problems in a 0 to 1 space."
Can anybody explain the 0 to 1 space jargon for me?
blazing dew
!tempmute 511237266589614102 1d not your place for shitposting. Take a break.
inner wrenBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @alpine meteor until 2020-08-07 19:22 (23 hours and 59 minutes).
gilded valley
I feel like modmail has really improved things. Especially in this channel
That is assuming mods aren't just more on the ball than I realise
edgy onyx
I also sent a modmail ^^
gilded valley
I didn't - I figured you or someone else already had
edgy onyx
Ahh
gilded valley
just the fact someone doesn't see an @moderators ping to respond to makes life much nicer
vapid jay
Hello, sorry if this has been answered, but I'm dedicating about 9 hours a day to learning Python and was wondering if anyone has additional recommendations and/or things they would change about the pinned reddit post. Right now I'm thinking about following it as my primary reference/knowledge base(all the books, courses, etc he used.
white karma
9 hours a day god dang man
vapid jay
just dont get burned out
astral stone
Anyone doing any college courses for CS?
vapid jay
If I do I'll tone it down, but right now going through the crash course learning syntax/basics I'm having fun tbh
true harness
9 hours a day of anything is a lot, be sure to take lots of breaks if you're gonna go through with that
humble shore
Yes. @astral stone
astral stone
What courses are you doing
syntax isn't really the most important, it's more like data structures/algorithms @vapid jay
frosty cove
yeah 9 hours feels like diminishing returns lol jeez
humble shore
This semester was my first taking a CS course but I had an introductory CPP course. Meant for first time programmers, really basic stuff. By the end of the semester we had covered streams, functions, loops, and scratched the surface of OOP. Next semester I’ve got a data structures class
true harness
interesting
humble shore
Yeah I learned that CPP is a very different language from python. In some ways it’s nice that it holds you more accountable when structuring programs. Like specify variable and return types.
storm pawn
half light
i dont get a single thing any of u guys r saying, seems pretty hard lol
@BananaGuyxd#9921 dude same
vapid jay
Neither did I, but all you have to do is google the terms haha
mortal wedge
Spending 9 hours a day learning Python seems like overkill, I don't even know what you'd be learning other than exploring the ecosystem.
vapid jay
@opal perch 12 yrs old is illegal bro
opal perch
well not illegal
vapid jay
I don't have any prior experience in programming/tech so I'm considering doing Python/django and working on web development in some way. Is there any specific site/course/regime you guys would recommend for the current job market?
true harness
if you've never used python before, the official python tutorial is good
white karma
Automate the boring stuff is also really good
vapid jay
Alright, I'll check that out and get automate the boring stuff, I've heard it recommended before too
inner wrenBOT
vapid jay
That's amazing, thank you
white karma
Np fren
vapid jay
Can I just ask this without anyone getting offended?
What is your job title and how much money do you make per year? I’m new to all of this. Young. Trying to figure out what to do with my life and hoping I can get some honest answers
crude crown
You have some sites that have some numbers available.
but glassdoor is a starting point with some numbers about it
mortal wedge
^
You're going to get such a wide range of people here
I know someone on this server making $15 an hour and someone making $195 an hour.
Go to a place like glassdoor that has that data more organized
wispy cape
It's also super different based on the country
mortal wedge
That too, we have a lot of EU and US folks
wide needle
i've found https://www.levels.fyi/ to be pretty accurate
though it's pretty bay area focused
salaries are going to vary dramatically from company to company and location to location
vapid jay
I like python more than sql honestly
tiny viper
distant crow
if you like python more than sql, have you used an ORM like SQLAlchemy?
now python be your SQL
hollow lava
hi
wintry imp
@vapid jay Trying to figure out what to do with my life and hoping I can get some honest answers me right now trying to question my own rationality
bruhh just take chill pill and code ur ass off
distant crow
if it helps, I didn't have an answer to that question until I was 25
wintry imp
what did u do after 25 tho @distant crow
distant crow
start a company, ran it for 5 years, sold it, joined a couple of startups, accidentally got promoted to CTO
(small company, the title doesn't mean much, but it's a funny story)
wintry imp
thats freaking coool and good on ya!!!! i was thinking of doing same too haha but just afraid of failure. but then im like if i dont do it... how am i going to know if i will fail or succeed haha and the funny part is im stuck on this haha
distant crow
yep, fear of failure shouldn't stop you from starting. But fear of failure is unfortunately the persistent driving force in my life those 5 years, it doesn't just go away after you raise a seed round, or even when you raise a series A round. It's always there, and it's amplified because it's no longer just about you, it's about the 50 people whose salaries you pay. it's their livelihoods too
mortal wedge
I started my own company and it failed, but it was an amazing experience and it gives me a lot of cred on my resume
distant crow
and if there's anything that drags you out of bed every morning, every weekend, it's that fear of failure. At least for me anyway
mortal wedge
Yeah
distant crow
it may be helpful to develop a healthy fear of not starting something
mortal wedge
I worked like 24/7 on the thing
distant crow
same. it wasn't healthy
(and it's a matter of time before I go back into that as well; I have plans...)
mortal wedge
🙂
distant crow
once you work for yourself, working for anyone else is just not the same
wintry imp
totally agree with u guys on it.
mortal wedge
I hear you there
I'm just glad my current company gives me a lot of latitude on implementation
"Here's what we want, implementation is up to you"
distant crow
I had a role like that, but got promoted out of it. I'm jealous
mortal wedge
😛
wintry imp
thats cool
i guess i gotta actually starting working on it instead of just regretting now haha thnx for inspiration
mortal wedge
👍
vestal jungle
Hey y'all I got a question. So I went to community college for programming about 2 months ago, but I dropped out because I hated how they taught it. I've been trying to teach myself now and become self taught, or maybe do something like Computer Networking next semester instead. Question is, if I become a fluent, self-taught dev with basic DSA skills, would that be enough to land me a job or at least an internship as a python dev? Would companies also hire me as a dev if i have a diploma in CN, but know programming on the side?
I understand the CN diploma may not be necessary, but I find holding any tech related diploma is better than nothing
gilded valley
Yeah. A lot of places just want any bachelors, and don't care if its entirely relevant or not
mortal wedge
^
vestal jungle
right
mortal wedge
It just doesn't have to be comp sci specifically
gilded valley
You don't have to - but it certainly makes life easier
vast shoal
A diploma helps, but there are self-taught programmers that get hired
mortal wedge
Could be engineering, science
vast shoal
You do need to prove your mettle somehow, though
gilded valley
I've seen plenty of people from non-STEM degrees working in tech
corps especially like hiring people from non-CS degrees
IBM for example takes lots of music people
vast shoal
A common way is to create a portfolio of personal projects
vestal jungle
oh wow
gilded valley
JPMorgan has a program explicitly for hiring non tech degrees into tech roles
mortal wedge
Sure, but having a STEM degree is more useful than not
vestal jungle
yea ik the projects really matter when ur self taught
mortal wedge
and having a degree is more useful than not
vast shoal
A good way of getting somewhat realistic experience is contributing to open source software
gilded valley
I think the jump from no degree to any degree is massive, the jump from non-stem to stem degree is a pretty small one (in terms of how much more employable it makes you)
vestal jungle
right I've heard open sources contributions are extremely helpful
vast shoal
That'll help teach you to work with other people and use collaboration tools that you might not get exposed to coding away by yourself
mortal wedge
Fair enough, but I disagree when it comes to the US.
Yes, definitely work in a team
vast shoal
My intuition is that a non-STEM degree wouldn't count for much here either
Unless you were hired to do something close to that non-STEM degree.
mortal wedge
I've only looked for jobs in the US, so can only speak to the situation here
vestal jungle
I live in Canada so we aint far off
mortal wedge
It's silly, really. Being a general engineer shouldn't give you programming cred, but it does
gilded valley
The degree from a company's POV is just to show that you can stick at a difficult thing for 3 years. Diversity of thoughts, personality, and background make for good teams - corps know that, so they want to hire people from diverse backgroudns
vast shoal
I worked for a fintech company building stock exchange infrastructure, and they hired some industrial economists, but that's obviously relevant in other ways
vestal jungle
right
vast shoal
I don't think they'd hire a sociologist or something
vestal jungle
btw how was fintech? ive heard it pays really well but its a little more on the boring side
mortal wedge
It does pay really well
gilded valley
if you can self teach, then it doesn't matter what your background is, just that you can interview well and demonstrate relevant skills
i'm in a fintech role right now - on the data side of htings - and i wouldn't say it's boring
vast shoal
@vestal jungle I think the only people saying it's boring are people who don't work in it.
mortal wedge
Yeah, but you have to get those interviews too. The benefit is that these days more people are self-taught, due to quarantine
vestal jungle
i see
vast shoal
Generally, it's pretty great. It pays well, the hours are normal, it's varied and challenging and important to society.
mortal wedge
Fintech is also a field that lets you optimize algorithms 🙂
vast shoal
And I feel appreciated as an employee.
gilded valley
the hours are normal
That's highly dependant on the company
I know of multiple fintech companies where people are worked to the bone
mortal wedge
One of the few fields were algorithm optimization is important, hah
vast shoal
Well, I work in Sweden, so maybe it's better here than elsewhere.
Good labor protection laws and such.
gilded valley
yeah, London is a finance centre of the world - so I guess things might be more extreme there
vestal jungle
sorry i havent really looked into DSA, what exactly is algorithm optimization?
vast shoal
@vestal jungle Making algorithms faster or more space-efficient.
mortal wedge
Needing to know time/space complexity of algorithms and... yeah
gilded valley
Fintech is too broad to say algorithm optimisation is important. Not everyone is working in systematic trading
gilded valley
fintech is about as broad as tech itself
mortal wedge
That's fair Charlie
Algorithm optimization is fun, though. If I ever got into fintech, that would be my reason why.
(But everyone is not me, maybe they don't find that sort of thing fun)
gilded valley
systematic trading is an insane field - high frequency trading blows my mind that it's so fast that physical distance from the exchange matters a lot
mortal wedge
Mmmhmm
vast shoal
@dapper cypress Did you read Flash Boys?
gilded valley
No, I haven't heard of it
vestal jungle
but obviously once you get your foot into the industry, after a year or so it probably wouldn't matter if your self taught or have a bachelors
mortal wedge
Matthew, generally speaking yeah
Well
The longer you're in the industry, the less of an effect your bachelors has
vestal jungle
right
gilded valley
yeah - it seems interesting. Some of the people where I currently work used to do high frequency trading, and it seems like a bizarre field to be working in
vast shoal
Like how HFT companies pay insane amounts of money for the privilege of renting offices right next door to the exchange, so they can draw their own optic fibre directly into the server hall
mortal wedge
I remember they started passing laws about how close they could be, haha
To stop anyone from having too much of an advantage
vast shoal
iirc, the people who were the subject of the book created their own exchange with artificial delays to try to equalize the market or something
Anyway, very interesting
gilded valley
there's one exchange that just bought like 20miles of fibre optic cable and runs everything through a spool of it - just so there's a minimum baseline for latency
vestal jungle
do you think it would help my case if i did a Computer Networking diploma, hold a CCNA, and have maybe 3 years of work experience in networking then go on to search for a dev position?
mortal wedge
Yeah
gilded valley
What's a diploma?
mortal wedge
That could definitely work
vast shoal
@gilded valley That might be the one.
vestal jungle
associate degree
I've always been interested in networking, so i guess that would be good
mortal wedge
One of the most common requirements I saw on job postings were "bachelor's degree with 2 years of experience or master's degree with 0 years of experience" though
gilded valley
Is associates degree at community college then bachelors at a normal college a path you could consider? From what I hear about the US - that seems like a pretty solid path
mortal wedge
For what should be entry level positions
mortal wedge
Which is silly, but whatever
vestal jungle
but i just want to get working asap
mortal wedge
I hear you
gilded valley
Yeah, that's fair enough
mortal wedge
Finding a job isn't easy if you're significantly less competitive than other applicants
vestal jungle
definitely
mortal wedge
Especially for entry level when they're using pretty much any reason to weed people out. Maybe if it's a smaller company and someone vouches for you.
Because you collaborated with them on an open source project or something
vestal jungle
why do companies also say they want 2 years of experience for entry-level positions? been constantly searching on indeed and so many descriptions mention that. Are they talking about internship experience or actual work experience?
mortal wedge
Sometimes they might be willing to accept internship experience, but surprisingly enough they're referring to work experience.
It's kind of BS
vestal jungle
yea i mean idk how im gonna get a entry-level job if i need experience even for that
mortal wedge
There's another set of companies where the common requirement is to be a recent graduate.
Within the last year
So either being a recent grad OR having work experience will be the ticket to getting an entry level position
vestal jungle
ok i see
mortal wedge
If you've got neither, well.... it's going to be a real challenge
vestal jungle
I'm gonna assume you are experienced in C++ by looking at your name, would you ever think of using Rust instead?
i was trying to teach myself C++ as well but ended up drawing more interest into Rust
mortal wedge
Seems like it could be a useful tool, it's popular enough on this server. I haven't seen it anywhere near as much as C++ on job postings, though
vestal jungle
fair enough
mortal wedge
In fact, I don't recall seeing it at all, but maybe I just wasn't looking at the right jobs, idk
vestal jungle
I'd love to see Rust become more popular some day, its a very underrated language imo
distant crow
I'm gonna assume you are experienced in C++ by looking at your name
he's actually just accessing the Python pointer of the structure "C++"
gilded valley
In the SO dev survey, Rust was barely used at all - but much loved
mortal wedge
😄
vestal jungle
oh 😂
mortal wedge
Ah, I love C++ but it can become pointer hell
gilded valley
well, that means it's use is probably gonna grow in the next few years
mortal wedge
Well, or reference hell
gilded valley
MS just picked it up for some stuff
so I wouldn't feel too bad about learning Rust
mortal wedge
Yeah, it may very well grow, it's just not anything close to industry standard in 2020
vestal jungle
right
gilded valley
IF you learn rust fairly well though, you can probably learn the other languages that are required by job postings fairly easily
but you can leave that til later down the line
mortal wedge
Learning core programming concepts is more important than learning any one specific language
vestal jungle
the reason I'm trying to learn Rust and C++ is because later down the line I want to do embedded systems, and I have a theory that Rust will be the next big language for that
Learning core programming concepts is more important than learning any one specific language
@mortal wedge right - think I've completely forgotten about that
shadow moss
depends on type of embedded
mortal wedge
Some folks still love their C
vestal jungle
C is the language they taught me in college before i withdrew
shadow moss
some of non mission critical stuff prefer stuff like Java/Python
mortal wedge
C is a great language for teaching comp sci fundamentals
mortal wedge
Since nothing in C is done for you, lol, you're doing it all yourself
mortal wedge
The problem with python when it comes to teaching comp sci fundamentals is that a lot of it is abstracted and Python does a LOT for you
vestal jungle
true
mortal wedge
Yeah, ofc it depends on whether or not you have real-time constraints, the amount of memory you have available, etc.
shadow moss
kids toy, whatever gets it out the door
vestal jungle
so would you suggest I teach myself C fundamentals before resuming Python studies?
shadow moss
like Python is used alot with Raspberry PIs
vestal jungle
yup
shadow moss
may not C but any typing language
vestal jungle
god i've just realized how much more i have left to do before I can finally say i'm employable
you know how u can just start working in trades right out of high school with very minimal college training? I kinda wish programming was like that haha
mortal wedge
That would be nice
distant crow
some automotive shops use matlab for car ECU development
it horrifies me, but it happens
actually it's not strictly speaking matlab, it's some kind of compiler that compiles simulink
at my last robotics job, we used python. it runs a 1-ton robot with up to 4 arms and motorized wheels
ROSpy to be specific; it's great for high-level control, and using python is great here because all the computer vision and machine learning stuff attached to the cameras are also in python, so it's one fewer stack to control
however, on occasion, any custom sensors would have to be C/C++ - your typical low-level stuff
worst I had to deal with is compiling for an Atheros board, which is unfortunately running a big-endian OS
mortal wedge
The biggest problem with matlab tbh is the price tag
distant crow
god yeah, especially the compiler
mortal wedge
Yup
It does have quite the diverse toolbox. When I was a student I used it exclusively, even for side hobbies/projects.
Then my free subscription ran out....
distant crow
yep, I guess it's great for academia, and any engineering companies that don't need or want to deal with software development
mortal wedge
I even know one company that uses matlab for on-device processing 🤢
It's great for giving engineers the tools of a good programmer without them becoming a good programmer
mortal fossil
Anyone in the fintech industry?
mortal wedge
There are some folks on the server in fintech, yes
vestal jungle
damn y'all are so smart and good at this stuff
@distant crow I've always wanted to work on robotics, thats really cool
unfortunately the only community college programs for tech are either programming or IT
sweet shore
I tend to wholely aviod FinTech @mortal fossil ... it's full of "Tech Bros" and just isn't a good envrionment.
vestal jungle
i bought an Arduino starter kit maybe a couple weeks ago to kinda start messing around with some hardware and systems programming as well
sweet shore
@vestal jungle fwiw, general programming will introduce you to all the things you need for robotics, without the specifics
i don't know of many places that have specific robotics courses
other than the obvious graduate schools
vestal jungle
i mean as long as you don't need to know too much about hardware and machine automation i think i could do it
distant crow
yeah, arduino's a good start - lots of hardware and software ecosystem, and we use it in production as well sometimes for non-critical things nobody can be bothered to design a bespoke thing for
sweet shore
there is always the robotics competitions though that have a LONG learning period (usually with a mentor) before compititons
vestal jungle
i should see if i can learn more about that - id love to participate
distant crow
for getting into robotics with python, a lot of robotics is still controlled by a computer, and for that we often talk to electronics with python, using pyserial, or occasionaly cython-hidapi
sometimes network stack as well - so sockets
some key libraries are handling binary data, with struct for packing/unpacking, though numpy is often used since it's got typed arrays
sweet shore
are there a lot of actuators and sensors that are at the HID level now? I've only ever used low level languages to control them
distant crow
no, but HID is often used for interface to a driver board
sweet shore
ah, gotcha
distant crow
some of that is because a lot of microcontrollers now have a USB HID stack in ROM, which makes it very easy to implement HID
for example NXP's Cortex M3 have HID and mass-storage in ROM, meaning you can implement a raw HID device in about 30 lines of code (enable the peripherals, define the endpoint report, and supply the endpoint0 in/out callbacks)
vestal jungle
what is the difference between robotics programming when you use a low-level language compared to a higher level one?
distant crow
low-level tends to be focused on interfacing with the hardware. High level tends to be things like path planning, motion planning, sensing or imaging the environment
vestal jungle
i see
distant crow
dynamic control is somewhere between, you can have that in low-level, or in high level
sweet shore
yeah, that is why you see a lot of C/C++ in robotics because (at least C++) sort of fills both gaps
distant crow
PID loops are probably low-level; while stuff like IK, SLAM, and navigation is high level
sweet shore
i'm interested in the gains rust is making in the space though, the funtional paradigms i think will be helpful in that aspect
vestal jungle
i cant talk about that in terms of robotics, but i agree with you
i think Rust will end up becoming a very powerful language in the near future
sweet shore
I think rust is already a powerful language, it just needs to mature more (frameworks and such)
C/C++ have a 3 decade head start lol
lapis wind
Tbf the support for rust now is growing
It lends itself very nicely for Embedded devices as well but yeah id personally love some more support for it in robotics
sweet shore
sounds like i need to get on the library building train lol
violet pond
Question for employers/recruiters:
When you are evaluating a candidate's portfolio for a junior position, do you pay any attention to 'creativity' or being original?
When you see a project that isn't a snake/tic-tac-toe/calculator, do you tend to value it more?
sweet shore
@violet pond: As someone who has been a hiring manager that has evaluated Jr. portfolios, I usually ask for whatever you have to show me regarless of what it is.
I'm looking for a few things:
- Idiomatic code / readability
- Comments that describe things that aren't overly simple in addition to the normal documentation
- The completeness of the thing I'm looking at
- General concepts ... e,g, -- OOP usage, package/module usage, general reliance on libraries, and what libraries you did use (and some times, i will look at the libraries themselves if I don't know them to see how well the candidate followed their documentation)
Also, the project applied for will sway the weights of those things ... like, for a web-dev job, overall web concepts are going to be focused on, etc...
This all being said, it's very much a cursory look and I'm not going to deep-dive your code, so show things off as quickly as you can (a la, your code resume lol)
What is going to matter a whole lot more is that you can actually talk about the things you did and the reason why you did it that way. I've interviewed a number of people that just used a tutorial, but didn't understand the what/why's of it, and depending on the Jr. role, that may be ok (because the Mids/Srs aren't going to expect a Jr to know everything, we really just want to know that you can follow docs and have the basics down -- everything else we can teach you).
My checking of your provided code is for me to train my questions to learn more about you.
And I can't stress enough the "don't bullshit me" concept, because I'm going to know (mostly because i'm the one asking the question lol), and I would much prefer you tell me you don't know something (because again, I don't expect you to know everything, I sure don't lol -- but I would like to gauge your process of looking for that information), but as soon as you start making things up, that is a huge negative.
Re: the creativity question: that is sort of tricky. Sometimes, the creativity will show me that you really understand the space if it's done correctly, but the double-edge here is that if you do it incorrectly, it makes me think you don't know how to follow docuemtation. So be creative within reason lol
</end>
vestal jungle
wdym by follow documentation? do you like pull up a google docs or MS word and just type in the changes you made to an official document of some sort?
sweet shore
so ... generally, if you are using a library ... did you simply just follow the "quick start", or did you try to actually learn the library, or did you do none-of-the-above lol
like, i would really like to see library usage that ISN'T in the "quick starts"
vestal jungle
you're supposed to read them?
sweet shore
lol
vestal jungle
i just import and go...
sweet shore
as a Jr. I would expect you to be able to find documentation and know how to read it / use it ... because usually, my company is going to have our coding/documentation/testing standards set, and I would expect you to follow them (startups will be much earlier in this process lol)
some companies will do pair programming extensively with Jrs so that helps initially, but others will allow you to do what you do before developing those personalized plans
depends on the size of the engineering dept
I personally feel that Jr's are the future of the engineering dept, so I want to instill the best practices at the onset so I invest the more senior resources time in that effort, but other orgs do different things
vestal jungle
which industry are you in?
sweet shore
Tech 😛
vestal jungle
right haha
sweet shore
I've done a few things though, from web app stuff, to agtech, to gov't
sweet shore
lets just leave it at Gov't lol
vestal jungle
i understand haha
sweet shore
i also have my own dev consultancy
vestal jungle
i wanted to be a hacker for the DoD, still do, but there aren't many cybersec programs in my area, and most are just masters
sweet shore
there are a few ways to get into offensive cyber for the gov't, not least of all NSA recruiting, but they are hard to get unless you either came from acedemia (e.g. -- the masters) or coming from an Enlisted/Commissioned military role.
If i were do to it all over again, I would try to get into the AirForce academy for Cyber
distant crow
When you see a project that isn't a snake/tic-tac-toe/calculator, do you tend to value it more?
Honestly, I don't look at github projects that closely (not enough time). Mostly checking to see what's there - do you have an ongoing project? is it full of tutorials? is it barren and empty (then why did you link to it)? etc. etc. I' probably not going to look at more than two documents worth of code, and will probably look more at commit history to see how active you are. The rest is going to be tech assessment and interviews.
however, bonus points for having more ambitious projects
vestal jungle
well i guess its a good thing i have very anti-militia parents and family! 🙄
sweet shore
although, i think cyber ops are moving more to the "Space Force" :/
violet pond
@sweet shore
I think it's valuable piece of information, as it's not always obvious what recruiters look for.
we really just want to know that you can follow docs and have the basics down -- everything else we can teach you
well, in my country, companies when hiring juniors, they mostly want someone who is already independent so it's hard to find a first job (also, 300+ applicants on one job offer)
general reliance on libraries
does 'overuse' of libraries is a negative thing?
What is going to matter a whole lot more is that you can actually talk about the things you did and the reason why you did it that way.
so, generally, when someone's project is written completely by himself without any tutorial, then he should have fairly larger understanding of libraries/vanilla code right? (let's assume that code is readable, no redundancies)
And here I want to ask you about your opinion, which seems better for you:
- few (~5) 'template' projects
- one big project (let's say, a complete game)
with template projects I mean, project that can be downloaded and adapted/converted quickly, like template discord bot, template simple game, template website, you get the idea. Let's assume that they are working perfectly on their own and they are easy to be used as a foundation of someone's else project.
vestal jungle
in all seriousness though - i wasn't aware of that at all. Thanks for that bit of info. I'll check out some military programs
violet pond
I'm making a small game as a asset to my portfolio, but I'm not sure if I should make it bigger or try to make more small projects
sweet shore
Depends on what you want to do @violet pond, if you are applying for webdev roles, a game isn't going to help that much because the paradigms are so differnet
violet pond
I would like to go for backend/ML or something along these lines
I;m starting a tensor flow course (from google) so in few weeks some projects will appear
sweet shore
@violet pond backend like web?
but yeah, for ML/AI roles, a strong CS background is going to be sought after ... and for portfolios, novel ML projects (not just tutorial based ones)
violet pond
not exactly web, but rather infrastructures, API's etc
gilded valley
but yeah, for ML/AI roles, a strong CS background is going to be sought after ... and for portfolios, novel ML projects (not just tutorial based ones)
ML/AI doesn't really require CS
it requires procedural programming
and then stats knowledge
distant crow
if so that's kind of close to the work I've been doing, a lot of it is building data pipelines for AI processes. A lot of it is devops, task queues, optimizing stuff to run in parallel, etc. etc.
violet pond
your questions are quite in point, if I can say it like that, it gives me a small contemplation what I really want to do
sweet shore
But to answer your questions:
- yeah, independence is hard to gain as a Jr, but I assume that is a regional/cultural thing
- Overuse of libraries CAN be a negative, like, I would rather see you use the STDLIB to show that you know the fundimentals because my org may not use that one library that you used, and without it, you can't do a thing
- But yeah, assuming you don't do basic mistakes (which again is ok, you are a Jr lol), then being about to talk about your decision making process for choosing libraries and such will be nice
- I prefer one big project related to what you are appling for
This stuff is all very organization dependent though ... i've interviewed with places before that had a very toxic engineering department and then were just pushing to see where you broke.
vestal jungle
@sweet shore if you dont mind me asking, are you self/bootcamp taught, or traditional schooling?
sweet shore
@vestal jungle I'm entirely self taught (no degrees) ... although, I do have quite a large cert list
violet pond
I think it's the last question, does any certificate really impact the 'value' of candidate?
I have a few and I'm wondering if they are worth anything
sweet shore
I plan to go back for my CS, but it's hard with a family lol
vestal jungle
why would you? you seem to have quite the experience already
sweet shore
@violet pond as with all things, it depends ... a CEH doesn't help in some roles, is the cost of entry for others lol ... what certs are to looking at?
Generally, cloud certs are going to be one of those "cost of entry" certs anymore
@vestal jungle I would only go back for my degree for personal development at this point. There are a lot of tradional computing things that I glossed over early in my career that do occasionally hurt now, but they don't come up often. Really, I just want something that doesn't expire lolol
vestal jungle
hahaha
i feel you, it can be a pain to hold many certs that expire after a couple years
sweet shore
every two months i feel like I'm renewing some cert that I feel personally valuable, but really, only a few are the ones that get me in doors these days -> like the kubernetes certs, cloud architect certs, my CCIE, etc...
vestal jungle
you seem very accomplished
violet pond
well I guess my certs are kind of mixup, PCAP [python], CLA [c language], MTA 98-364 [database fundamentals], so I guess nothing outstanding and nothing valuable, but I try to cling on that thread of hope that I will look more appealing with these haha
sweet shore
they aren't bad, they prove some level of fundamentals, but yeah, consider some more tech agnostic ones (like LPIC for linux or the CNCF devops certs)
mortal wedge
@violet pond There is no such thing as overuse of libraries
Just shows that you're going to be spending time where it matters instead of reinventing the wheel
wispy cape
that's definitely arguable
sweet shore
I contest that @mortal wedge ... depends
wispy cape
yes, you don't want to reinvent the wheel every thursday, but you won't always be able to use any library at work
mortal wedge
You want someone to code something that there is already an open source function for???
sweet shore
if you ONLY know requests and i'm using aiohttp, the fundamentals matter more
@mortal wedge no, i want to know that you know web fundamentals ... and you can use ANY library without much learning.
mortal wedge
I'm not saying you should neglect the fundamentals
I'm just saying that there are some people that think you should never use open source libraries and I find that approach inane and nonsensical
sweet shore
but finding some, strange, hashmap library instead of just using a dict for things shows me that you know how to google libraries, but not that you know python lol
mortal wedge
In fact, I'd argue that any complex library requires knowledge of fundamentals in order to use it
To use it well*
sweet shore
again, that depends ... some libraries and frameworks abstract so much of the fundamentals away that it's really it's own thing (see Rails for Ruby lol)
mortal wedge
Heh. I took a test on ruby on rails without knowing anything about it and passed
I'm thinking like.. the scipy library. It's super powerful, but if you don't have the fundamentals down it's useless
sweet shore
soooooo much of rails ends up being meta programming ... which is very rails specific 🤷
Yeah, scipy, numpy, pandas, those are some outliers
sweet shore
datascience libraries tend to require fundamentals in both math and python
mortal wedge
Well, I also use biomedical signal processing libraries but those are mainly extensions of scipy/numpy/pandas
vestal jungle
all the fun jobs are math heavy eh
wispy cape
and not just that, you don't write numpy code the same way you write "regular" python code
sweet shore
but yeah, if you only know django and i'm using bottle and i ask you to maintain a middleware app, you are going to have problems lol
mortal wedge
I just don't think people should shy away from libraries for arbitrary reasons. The people whose code I'm working off of right now believed open source libraries were the devil so coded everything directly and it's a nightmarish pointer hellscape.
sweet shore
again ... this converstation is very organization and role dependent
lol ... C++ in general is a nightmarish pointer hellscape ... the libraries/frameworks just hide them
wispy cape
let's also not pretend open source is a utopia, there are issues caused by over reliance on some open source code
see the npm leftpad drama
mortal wedge
rip
sweet shore
yeah ... JS libraries are a freaking nightmare ... like ... why why why why why are there SOOOOOOO many libraries to do such basic things
a "simple" node app includes like 200 dependencies
i flat refuse to work with it
mortal wedge
I’m willing to accept there is such a thing as over reliance on libraries in place of fundamental knowledge, but I still don’t think overuse is a thing
storm tangle
hey has anyone had any luck using Handshake?
vestal jungle
not sure what that is
sweet shore
again... that is dependent ... if you, in an interview, can tell me WHY you chose a library (e.g. --- because i didn't want to re-invint the wheel because of x,y,z usecase) then I agree, but if you can't and you just did it because 🤷, then it's an overuse
and we are talking about Jrs here were fundamentals matter way more than anything
when you get to more mid/sr roles, it matters less because i assume the fundimentals exist
storm tangle
handshake is a job board, like indeed, but it's supposed to be better? idk
I've only been using it for a couple weeks
storm tangle
yeah its new! hip lol
vestal jungle
ill check it out
sweet shore
lol ... new/hip means not mature yet ... so maybe just startups? lol
as an SRE, i prefer boring and predicable lol
storm tangle
IBM is hiring again
wispy cape
also "it's X but better" is generally not very accurate
storm tangle
apparently idk
vestal jungle
can a cloud architect be a cloud engineer as well?
sweet shore
like ... kuberenetes is boring now ... so i love it even more now 😄
yes @vestal jungle
storm tangle
people say that hiring is down, but there seem to be a lot of postings lately
sweet shore
i've done the archtecture thing before, and found myself writing frameworks for my decisions lol ... so the architecture:engineer ratio was somewhere around 30:70 ... but again, depends on the org
wispy cape
There certainly are less job postings, it's just that CS-related positions in general are abundant
Like, there'll never not be tons of offers about JS positions for example
pastel dagger
is entry level with just python not doable?
storm tangle
thats a good point
sweet shore
yeah ... the problem with the market right now is that there were so many layoffs ... that the market is saturated
storm tangle
is entry level with just python not doable?
@pastel dagger I second this question lol
wispy cape
wdym not doable ? @pastel dagger
wispy cape
You can get a jr position if you're "only" good at python
pastel dagger
such as maybe js experiance, or like C
wispy cape
But like, generally you don't stick to only one language
storm tangle
linked in will say, "1,000 applicants" for a startup with like 10 people
wispy cape
I don't think I know anyone that never tried any other languages at least out of curiosity
sweet shore
@pastel dagger again, depends on what you want to do ... data science tends to default to python, but R may be in there, same with MATLAB, and maybe C
webdev ... it's rare to find python, mostly is JS/node these days ... with some Ruby/Rails & Django sprinkled in
wispy cape
django positions are not rare to find where i live
sweet shore
but like, the company i just left, were 100% python on the dev side. The only ones who needed anything else were DevSecOps/SRE.
well ... i say 100% python ... but the frontend guys obviously needed JS/Swift/Java/Kotlin/etc....
wicked robin
Web dev is still all .net and java in my city, big military town
Very few positions that mention python at all, other than a few data analyst positions
sweet shore
technically, all languages do the same shit
wispy cape
that's mostly true
wicked robin
I feel the same way, I think people with academic backgrounds are more comfortable with R because it does a lot of the pandas stuff for you out of the box
wispy cape
They're comfortable with it because that's what people are first taught
Very few people in this field actually care about the language they use
We are trying to make people move to python so we can have a consistent ecosystem and ease interactions between researchers, but it's like pulling teeth
wicked robin
I've used Julia a little, but didn't see the appeal everyone talks about, I definitely prefer Python
sweet shore
yeah ... same with any problem space ... it's very tribal
wispy cape
Julia is in the same situation, the performance claims don't matter at all for most people and the builtin syntax just doesn't make any difference in the long run, these incentives are not strong enough to warrant rewriting a lot of code and learning a new language
wicked robin
I agree, let alone the thousands of amazing imports python has
mortal wedge
I continue to be impressed by pythons ecosystem
mortal wedge
One thing that feels really wrong is python for embedded and I’m not yet sold on python for game dev
shadow moss
python for game dev sounds like really niche thing
python for embedded I think comes from Raspberry Pi popularity
and embedded systems can be flight controls for airplane to smart toaster, one obviously matters, one ends up on twitter
crude crown
@distant crow how does one get accidentaly promoted to a CTO? That seems REALLY unlikely to me.
distant crow
tripped and fell
what i meant was I was looking for a low-stress job where I could spend some quality time doing technical deep dive, and I had an offer for such a position, but shortly after joining, after a complex sequence of events, I got promoted instead
distant crow
🤷♂️
crude crown
I digged the talk about MATLAB here, I haven't used that for years now
originally I started using Python because the workplace I was at were cheapskates and only had about 2 MATLAB licenses...
turned out to be a nice restriction after all.
brisk ivy
Hello all. I am planning on taking the IBM data science specialization. My question is should I just audit every course or pay for the certificate.(I am not in a hurry for a job but still will it be useful in the future)
vestal jungle
not sure what you mean. don't you get the cert once you finish the course? @brisk ivy
vestal jungle
One thing that feels really wrong is python for embedded and I’m not yet sold on python for game dev
@mortal wedge I agree as well, haven't used Python for game dev, and I think the only thing it could do well for embedded systems are for smaller systems or minicomputers and what have you
@brisk ivy right. honestly I'm not too sure as I don't know how much value those certs hold, and I doubt it would be enough to get a recruiter to hire you, but I guess you could audit it now, and if you see the content really helped or was worth your while, then I'd pay for the cert if it makes you more employable upon presenting it to recruiters
brisk ivy
Ok
Thank you for your opinion
I also think that a recruiter won't value a online course certificate
vestal jungle
yea the only certs that hold any value - if not value, at least an integral proof of knowledge - are the ones commonly seen that have a name in the industry
whether it be CCNA, AWS Certified Solutions Associate (or whatever it is), or CEH
white karma
Do having those certificates on their own give you an advantage in a job search?
vestal jungle
@white karma honestly man take this with a grain of salt, as I'm not sure, but I'd highly doubt it
mortal wedge
They do, at least these days. Due to quarantine a lot more people are getting online certs and some of those certs either come from google or a college and if you mention the company/college to I don’t see why anyone would just ignore it
Especially if you don’t have a portfolio or recent relevant experience
Certification from Google - AWS specialist or some shit
People get that right now online courses are just like college (since both are remote) but one is cheaper
kindred torrent
Hi, I have no real formal education/training in python or programming in general. I'm educated in CGI and have landed a 12 week internship at a VFX house where they want me to work on their pipeline tools, mostly using python. I have done a few tools in python before, but I'm still very much a novice. Any tips on starting a new job/internship with very little experience in programming?
distant crow
mm nice, I was previously looking at a jobs at ILM london for python dev in pipeline
for production pipeline stuff, you should definitely look into just a lot of data handling in python - dictionaries, lists, and especially JSON; maybe some of the concurrency stuff; eventually look into task queues like celery or kafka; probably databases both SQL and stuff like redis; and then entire frameworks like Apache Airflow. You'll probably also need to brush up on Docker, which isn't python, but definitely related
and then read this for background: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/74ab/f1ea38147e3c7803668c5433b535afbbc227.pdf
kindred torrent
Thanks a lot @distant crow, I only have 10 days till job start. But I'll write all of this down so I know what to look into.
true harness
wait you got a programming job without having experience in programming? maybe there is hope for me
distant crow
true, this is very impressive
kindred torrent
wait you got a programming job without having experience in programming? maybe there is hope for me
@true harness Well I landed a 12 week internship working with VFX pipeline with a bachelor in CGI and two projects as Techincal Director and minimal experience in Python.
true harness
very impressive
kindred torrent
Like programming is just my weak spot 😂
distant crow
ah clearly you have a lot of valuable skills aside from python
kindred torrent
Yeah I think it's kinda like. You can get a programmer that doesn't know anything about a VFX pipeline or you can get someone that knows the VFX pipeline, but doesn't know programming. Since there is no education that teaches both around here.
crude crown
this is actually one of those fields that use Python that aren't talked about much
great to have someone onboard working on something like that 😄
kindred torrent
this is actually one of those fields that use Python that aren't talked about much
@crude crown Yeah I'll say, it's not always easy finding what you need when googling tbh
vestal jungle
@white karma my bad for the misinformation, I thought you were still talking about the IBM course cert. The certs I mentioned above are all fairly valuable, again depending on what exactly you want to do for work. Rule of Thumb is to just go after the certs that other's have proven are the most marketable and/or employable
white karma
@vestal jungle It’s all good, I’ll check them out
crude crown
I've seen some stuff around there related to UE (Unreal Engine) but yeah, the material is sparse for sure.
either way, material related to batch processing stuff is typically applicable to your industry
kindred torrent
I've seen some stuff around there related to UE (Unreal Engine) but yeah, the material is sparse for sure.
@crude crown Yeah, it can definitely be sparse. Also with most 3D software still using Python 2.7, you have to constantly be on alert
crude crown
distant crow
some of the work I do does involve high throughput data pipelines for processing satellite imagery, I think there's some similarity, but of course it doesn't include any integration with VFX software SDKs
I'm mostly basing this on the research I did applying to a python VFX position at ILM
kindred torrent
some of the work I do does involve high throughput data pipelines for processing satellite imagery, I think there's some similarity, but of course it doesn't include any integration with VFX software SDKs
@distant crow Yeah I was told I was going to be working mostly in Maya
distant crow
their job requirements listed a lot of technology that are used in other kinds of data processing pipeline
let me try and find
crude crown
frameworks like Apache Airflow or Luigi are quite interesting for things like that.
distant crow
yep, I'm struggling over my own Airflow instance as we speak
kindred torrent
I have no experience in that kind of stuff
distant crow
I got a thing happening over here in airflow
crude crown
basically, almost all technologies used in your typical data engineering gigs can be applied to your domain Kiwi
kindred torrent
Great, I have a lot to learn.
crude crown
learn in a need to know basis, that way it's more manageable. It easily gets overwhelming.
I would perhaps start with looking into Airflow
(besides Python stuff of course)
kindred torrent
The only way I have been successfully learning programming, is by having something so tedious to do, that I would rather spend time researching how to automate it with code. It's how I got started and it's how I've learned.
kindred torrent
I did have C++ back in high school, but I never learned much, because I never had a goal.
distant crow
I can't find the job spec any more, or at least it's this page but the contents have changed:
https://jobs.jobvite.com/lucascompanies/job/oI8tafwd
kindred torrent
But during first year of uni when I had to do repetitive tasks in 3D software, was the first time I actually learned programming. Because I had a genuine goal of saving time and saving my sanity.
distant crow
It used to say stuff like (and I have these because I shared with a friend):
• Strong knowledge of python programming and the Linux environment
• Experience working with revision control systems and defined coding standards
• Experience developing tools and/or plugins within industry software packages such as Maya, Nuke, Houdini or Katana
• Experience with Renderman, vray or ArnoldPreferred Skills/ Technical Competencies
• Experience with database technologies such as MySQL, PostgreSQL, MongoDB or Redis
• Experience writing RESTful APIs
• Experience developing against and/or deploying Amazon Web Services
• Knowledge of the standard python packaging and installation tool-chain
• VFX, Feature Animation or Episodic production experience
• Experience developing on Windows
so I guess take this as indication of some of the packages used
kindred torrent
I have experience with developing tools inside Maya and Houdini and I know VRay and Arnold pretty well. And I know VFX/Animation in general. And I use Windows. Like that's about it.
distant crow
sounds like you have a good headstart, and just need the python to glue everything together
kindred torrent
Jesus that is a long list
distant crow
it's probably a big laundry list of stuff, I guess most of it you'll pick up on the job
kindred torrent
Yeah honestly I'm aiming more for rigging than pipeline. But being one of the only 3 students to pick up python, the push towards pipeline has been real.
Rigging of course also contains python for automation. No one can be competitive without automating their techniques.
distant crow
ah cool, didn't know it used python
kindred torrent
Well if you're working in Maya (Most common software to rig in) you can use MEL which is Maya's own native language or you can use Python to basically run MEL commands.
crude crown
however, they seem to want a mix of a python SW dev working with modern-ish stuff + stuff related to VFX
yeah... good luck for them trying to find someone like that.
kindred torrent
Honestly machadojpf, it's probably because they're expecting people who has already been working in the industry for 3-4 years. You probably enter the industry in a junior position only knowing half of the stuff and learn the rest on the job.
distant crow
sounds to me you'd be ok applying with data pipeline/processing experience from other sectors; or starting out with VFX experience and picking up python
kindred torrent
Oh well, I'll probably find some kind of a job in the VFX industry, if I don't stay with pipeline specifically.
mortal wedge
What’s vfx? Visual effects?
vestal jungle
yep
storm tangle
has anyone tried cybercoders? is it worth it or nah?
what is that slack channel for?
mortal wedge
They're posting it everywhere
storm tangle
ah okay, any thoughts on cyber coders? ive heard mixed things
mortal wedge
Is that the recruiting firm?
I feel like I spoke to a recruiter or two there
It was okay. It's a recruiting firm
Didn't stand out as particularly bad, didn't stand out as particularly good
storm tangle
ah okay, thanks. and yeah that sounds accurate. i dont have much choice, aiming for entry level. i just wanted to make sure it was legit.
mortal wedge
Yeah, it's legit
distant crow
I hate cybercoders
they accounted for at least half of my recruiter spam. they seem to go for quantity over quality
plus, it looks like they hire their recruitment staff as contractors, so it's not just a company of a few recruiters, it's like hundreds of independent contractors each trying to get you to take their candidates
as a result I get never-ending spam from them. doesn't matter how many times I tell them no, the next cybercoder recruiter that comes along is going to try their luck again
so... that's my perspective of them as someone hiring: too unfocused to be of use and too decentralised. I don't bother with them, it's double or triple the effort compared with smaller recruiters. easier to just send all emails from cybercoders into spam
other people's perspectives may vary, this is mine
oh, they're legit. I just don't like their practices. but I'm sure they do get people hired so...go ahead, can't hurt
mortal wedge
If you're trying to get hired, just work with every recruiting firm, lol
I really only favored a specific one when I had a contact there, but still applied to all relevant positions regardless of specific firm
vapid jay
I had this roadmap recommended to me, not sure how accurate it is but if it can help anyone else out here it is
mortal wedge
I'm confused. Does it start at backend?
Is backend considered a starting point?
Or do you start in the middle? 🤷♀️
lapis wind
The layout is very weird imo
Like sure, we have the backend section at the top
pick a language in the middle
but then it goes on about backend bellow
and all version control randomly and other stuff
just seems to be in no particular order and if its supposed to be it seems rather badly laid out.
the points it makes tho are pretty good in terms of stuff to learn
tender thicket
I agree. I think the vertical axis isn't quite great, but almost everything there is good to know/of use when working with a typical stack.
distant crow
it looks like it's just a chart of related technologies. it looks good. the things I'd add to it (or maybe it appears elsewhere on the chart) are:
- vendor-specific SDKs and APIs - if an employer is using a particular cloud provider (particularly serverless offerings) then they may want to see some experience with it. For example: Google Firebase (Firestone DB, Auth) or AWS Amplify or Cognito, Mongo Realm.
- modern frontend frameworks; and this'll be a big section, including SPA/routing, SSR, state management patterns/Proxy, Babel, webpack, polyfill, CSS pre-processing, component libraries, CSS frameworks, etc.
- schema validation, e.g. json-schema
- add "federation" to the graphql bit
vapid jay
Sorry, I was asking about backend and that's the backend chart specifically apparently
vapid jay
It's an external link but there are ones for front end and devops on the top right
Yea
mortal wedge
I know nothing about the majority of the stuff on that image 😄
graceful stone
It is on Github https://github.com/kamranahmedse/developer-roadmap
brisk ivy
Any roadmaps for data science
mortal wedge
Probably. I don't have any handy though. I'm in algorithm development
distant crow
oh, this is backend? In that case:
- I'd still add Schema validation
- still add graphql federation
- emphasise a lot more vendor-specific stuff, including VPS, bucket storage, VPC networking etc. etc.
- add a section near containerization called "container orchestration" that includes Kubernetes and Helm maybe docker-compose and swarm.
- Maybe expand Docker to include new OCI tools like postman/buildah
- add service meshes
- add log shipping and log aggregating - they mention it in the bottom right, but there's a couple of stacks worth knowing about - elastic/elk (and ES does appear elsewhere under search) and stackdriver
- webhooks added to either git, Ci/Cd, or APIs
- maybe add ETL stuff like specific stacks like Apache Airflow and Spark; and concepts like DAGs
admittedly some of this crosses over into DevOps, so you could argue there's a line to be drawn there with all the DevOps stuff on the other side of it
neat jetty
@cobalt condor broo, can u let me write one message to you in dm's? ❤️
cobalt condor
y
mortal wedge
Man, how massive is webdev
distant crow
a lot of this stuff isn't needed in simple webdev projects, but in broader backend development
distant crow
honestly, if you learned every single item in that list, you'd be basically principle engineer or higher levels
that roadmap is like at least 5 years of career
actually I'm ignoring the fact that it says: Rust, Go, Java C#, PHP, Javascript, Python, Ruby. Of course if you're going to learn all of these to any more than a surface level, that's going to take you a few years too
hardy crane
yeah, the map is interesting but I think by the time you made meaningful progress you would easily have a job
mortal wedge
Story checks out, stopped learning about more complex data structures once I had job
hardy crane
and once you have the job, it narrows the set of technologies that make sense to learn in depth. they may be totally different from the map
Haha I feel you
Large tech companies especially have their own ecosystems with databases and distributed systems stuffs you've never heard of
wintry imp
and also the thing is after u have learned everythin in that roadmap, if u dont implement it on a project that is completely independent of the tutorials then it wont mean anything??
distant crow
depends really, some things are really simple enough that just learning about it once is enough for you to do it for real next time it comes up
but more complex stuff, yeah, you should implement it to properly learn
if anyone can just gain experience equal to someone who's actually doing it for their job, just by watching/reading some tutorials, then I think it would be much easier for people to get a job just by doing some reading. But clearly this is not the case, and real hand-on experience is valuable
wintry imp
totally agree with ya.
mortal wedge
That's why companies value recent relevant experience so much
true harness
"junior software developer, 10 years experience required"
mortal wedge
That's the age old question
Getting your first job really sucks
and your first job is probably going to suck
true harness
i'll repair the ordering kiosks in mcdonalds
mortal wedge
That's the spirit!
true harness
yep, use my college cs degree for sweeping floors 😭
wintry imp
"junior software developer, 10 years experience required" thats just meme bruh
getting a cs degree doesnt mean u can actually do stuffs lol
no offence
true harness
well yeah, but at least a little
wintry imp
just create some of ur own personal projects relevant to the job u applying n u sud be fine
but degree is still a thing tho haha didnt meant that its useless.
you can have a bachelor's degree and still be an idiot - elon musk lol
mortal wedge
elon musk is kind of a prick isn't he
wintry imp
hes a meme
lol
but it is true
if u mean prick for sleeping with other ppls wife than he is def lol
faint sapphire
Man, how massive is webdev
@mortal wedge
Webdev in general is ultra boring
faint sapphire
Yeah algos are cool tho😎
vapid jay
I wanna be an electrical engineer and computer scientist
wintry imp
cool
distant crow
saying web dev can't be a software engineer is unnecessary gatekeeping. the term "software engineer" is now so common in usage, and there's no protection of the term. I don't see a problem
it's not like calling yourself a doctor, which you can't unless you actually have the training and certification
I have an engineering degree (though it's more in electrical engineering) but I don't think this gatekeeping of people saying coders can't be engineers is necessary or healthy
besides, it's also factually incorrect. consider that complex frontend apps like Google Maps is also "web dev"
wintry imp
true true i didnt say u cant be one but pretty much what web dev do is build stuff using frameworks n use tools that is already there.
storm tangle
i think he, most people, acknowledge that one is more difficult than the other, but the culture of gatekeeping and insulting people is what he seems to be getting at
gilded valley
i think he, most people, acknowledge that one is more difficult than the other, but the culture of gatekeeping and insulting people is what he seems to be getting at
@storm tangle
whoops didn't mean to send
but - there's no meaningful difference between web dev and software engineering
can you clearly define the difference?
You can probably say web dev is a subfield of software engineering - but not that one is more difficult than the other - and it just seems arrogant to me to try and claim that it is
distant crow
what web dev do is build stuff using frameworks n use tools that is already there.
so in electrical engineering, I'm mostly building circuits using chips that are already there, EDA software that's already there, and chip footprint libraries that are already there, even the circuit designs that I use are mostly standard topologies. What's the difference?
the only difference I can think of is some misplaced notion of "pureness", with the assumption that other programming subfields don't significantly use libraries and frameworks. The only fields your going to find with those are going to be in language development, R&D for AI/ML fields (i.e. non-production systems), embedded systems, and high-performance computing
everyone else - (high level) robotics; production AI/ML; backend; devops; data pipelines and ETL workflows; etc. etc. are using a lot of libraries
mortal wedge
I'm designing novel algorithms and I couldn't do it without numpy and scipy
I mean okay I could but ugh that's disgusting
distant crow
sorry, according to SexPistol, you're not allowed to call yourself an engineer because you use libraries
mortal wedge
😄
distant crow
but yeah, my first go-to for doing most things is check if there's already a library to do it
mortal wedge
As it should be!
distant crow
while there are maintenance issues with doing that, in almost all cases if the library is well-supported and maintained, I'm still saving time over re-inventing it, even if I have to go in and fix an error or two in the library
mortal wedge
I've found an error in a library like that before, only to find out there was already a github issue made for it and it would be fixed in the next release
compact glacier
what line of work is python good in and pays really well lol
mortal wedge
fintech, FAANG
gilded valley
There's pracitcally no one out there writing code who isn't relying on libraries
Data Scientists are relying on Tensorflow and Pytorch
I was planning to list a bunch more examples - but I can't actually think of many
mortal wedge
Algorithm engineers are relying on numpy and scipy.
Some others are relying on asyncio I guess?
idk
Yeah, all I got is my own field
crude crown
It's more interesting to think of examples which don't or barely use libraries
gilded valley
Only thing I can think of is embedded systesm
where you're at the lowest possible level
crude crown
yeah, I was thinking on that as well, in particular for general tooling/scripting in that domain.
gilded valley
or the people developing those underlying libraries
mortal wedge
Even then, those use libraries when you're not too constrained
crude crown
or if you work in companies with a very strong NIH mentality
gilded valley
I don't know the C++ world well enough, but I'm assuming TensorFlow is built on top of some C++ dependencies, until at some level you get to something you could call the bottom
crude crown
that's the case for some german ones...
crude crown
Not Invented Here
gilded valley
ah
That mentality seems like a hangover from actual engineering, and the kind of thing that's just got to die off
mortal wedge
It's a thing sometimes in the US
Apparently it's because some companies got sued or something for using open source libraries (Microsoft?) so they just developed their own in house to avoid that
crude crown
it's all a matter of reading up on licenses
and see if you can actually use them or not
gilded valley
Apparently it's because some companies got sued or something for using open source libraries (Microsoft?) so they just developed their own in house to avoid that
@mortal wedge
That sounds like companies misinterpreting the whole Oracle lawsuit debacle
which I don't understand well enough
mortal wedge
Same
gilded valley
and also probably doesn't belong being discussed in this channel
mortal wedge
Fair
gilded valley
not that the original point wasn't relevant, I just don't want someone to come along and try and explain the long+boring saga
mortal wedge
hah