the little man computer and chatroom sites took me around a week or so each as they were just kinda distractions for me aha
#career-advice
vapid jay
distant crow
I suggest you look into modern web frameworks OR frontend CSS/component frameworks
vapid jay
so thats why the css isnt the best
distant crow
modern web frameworks, i.e. React/Vue because those are highly likely going to be a job requirement if you do anything relating to frontend
vapid jay
noted
distant crow
CSS/component frameworks like bootstrap/tailwind (or the web framework-specific ones like material-ui or vuetify) because .... well the simplest way to put it is it lets you make decent-looking frontends without much effort
vapid jay
ill look into them thank you
distant crow
if you're going to learn React or Vue, then you might as well pick up the relevant component framework that goes with that, so
React with material-ui
or Vue with vuetify
vapid jay
also side question, i havent used jquery at all, do you think i should ?
distant crow
but if you're not going to look into those, then go with something like Tailwind which will work with your raw HTML/CSS
if you learn a modern web framework, you pretty much don't have to touch jquery
vapid jay
thats very good for me then
distant crow
I'll admit: I never learned jquery, and I'm glad I don't have to any more
vapid jay
ahah
distant crow
as for the python stuff, I assume you're using python on the backend
vapid jay
so from what youve seen do you think i could get a job?
yeah i dont know php so ive used python
also because it was my first language so im very confident with it
distant crow
if you ask me, that was the right choice
distant crow
yeah
vapid jay
im actually quite surprised
distant crow
reasonably, node.js is coming up there now
broken shore
isn't YouTube python in the backend?
distant crow
in the case of Youtube, the backend is quite extensive, it doesn't just include the bits that are immediately related to serving the website, it also includes a whole bunch of data pipelines that deal with transcoding videos, generating thumbnails, filtering spam, scanning for copyright music...
broken shore
yeah, it's definitely super sophisticated I could imagine
distant crow
I don't know what parts of it are python, but given its size, and given that python is pretty good with building data pipelines and data processing tasks like that, they could be using python for at least some of it
vapid jay
oh yeah so back to the first question, do you think im experienced enough to get a job ??
as i said i have no idea where im at compared to others
distant crow
snadwich, I think your portfolio, the first two items show some good technical capabilities, but I think the presentation might put some people off. So you'd be best off improving your skills on the presentation side (and those CSS/component frameworks will help a lot, since you can put together nice sites with less effort), and focus on jobs that might be looking for more technical work. So not just "web development" but a little bit of full-stack activities
vapid jay
@vapid jay Before you start using those CSS component frameworks, be sure you actually know CSS fairly well and can make something on your own without any component framework. Else, anytime you need to do anything that deviates from your selected component systems paradigm you will struggle.
i feel fairly confident in css at the moment
distant crow
your fantasy CPU thing looks real cool to me, but I'm a giant-ass nerd who's into this stuff. I'm not sure what other people might think when they see it, it could be a bit confusing
vapid jay
Honestly if you know CSS well then you dont even save a lot of time using those component systems. Every time I use them, I end up spending more time overriding the defaults to customize things than I would have if I had just styles it correctly the first time.
distant crow
it depends how much you want to control what your site looks like, I'm the opposite. I'm like "take control of this away from me, you're better at design than I am, just show me where to stick the content"
vapid jay
the hardest part of css styling for me is making the page responsive to different display sizes
distant crow
modern web frameworks will make that easy for you
vapid jay
That's the easiest part IMO. I can usually get a 100% responsive design with a single media query.
Vanilla CSS
I have a hard time with complex animations and SVGs, but responsiveness isn't difficult at all.
Not to mention, every time you use one of these CSS frameworks you're importing a ton of bloat that you wont end up using.
but also depends. internship requirements tend to be quite low, some places might just want someone who's keen, knows basic python, and able to learn
my private GitHub has private keys and sloppy all over my commit history
do you start a whole new repo or account to publicly display your good stuff?
but also depends. internship requirements tend to be quite low, some places might just want someone who's keen, knows basic python, and able to learn
isn't it really competitive even with those things?
I should note. I'm not a frontend guy either. I dont love CSS.
I far prefer the backend.
obsidian acorn
@vapid jay I would say yes
distant crow
let's not pre-emptively optimize here. Make a nice looking site that impresses potential employers, we're not trying to build a world-class UX
vapid jay
But vanilla CSS is easy once you get the hang of it, and component systems really aren't great beyond teams (consistency) and rapid development.
obsidian acorn
because your history will still be publick
so, someone can go through your historical logs to get those info
gilded valley
isn't it really competitive even with those things?
Yes. JPMorgan got 10s of thousands of applicants. So did IBM
and those aren't top tier
obsidian acorn
alternatively, you can create new keys, and make the keys that you have on there null and void
vapid jay
so from what ive gathered i should try look for a small company ?
distant crow
I'd worry about bloat and loading speed later. Besides, learning CSS/component frameworks will teach a few things that'll help your vanilla CSS
vapid jay
yeah but that would look bad to someone snooping around there right?
like how could I show off my progress and commits over time if I just plop a project on a new repo?
I'm not saying to forego component systems entirely. But at least get comfortable doing basic CSS stylings (like making your pages responsive).
obsidian acorn
yes, new repo
vapid jay
is there like an option to show commit history but not the contents of the history?
*activity
gilded valley
no
distant crow
are you talking about the green squares?
gilded valley
just refresh all your keys and then fix it
obsidian acorn
when you have your private repos, i believe your commits still counts
vapid jay
@distant crow You may be able to learn a little from component frameworks, but not nearly as much as you would from just using vanilla CSS
distant crow
because if you want to show green squares for private repos, you enable this option:
obsidian acorn
so, in terms of showing commits, you don't have to worry a bout that
gilded valley
just having green squares doesn't seem to be of any value
distant crow
@vapid jay the guy's already said he's confident on CSS, I believe him
sure there's always more to learn
obsidian acorn
@gilded valley some companies like to see that you have been active on github
vapid jay
hmm
I mean he then said he has a hard time making pages responsive. Which is fairly basic IMO.
obsidian acorn
and that you actually have version control experiences
gilded valley
but the green squares don't show activity, the commits do
obsidian acorn
actually, they both do
vapid jay
i could be removing a space and committing that
distant crow
the green squares are fun, I like them
vapid jay
to emulate activity
but that doesn't mean I'm making meaningful progress
so that could be why they don't really look at green squares?
gilded valley
They both do, but without the commit history I think the graph is nearly worthless
obsidian acorn
partially true, but if you are making contribution to a private repos, those still counts as well
vapid jay
yeah I really screwed up by not learning how to import key files from gitignore from the get go
distant crow
the green squares actually do tell a story, but it's more of a little bit of insight into the person and not really their skill level. you can see the difference between someone who works monday-to-friday for example, and you can usually see job changes because suddenly commits start or stop
but this kind of insight isn't really useful by itself, it's just an interesting thing to note
vapid jay
that's true
past crow
anyone have experience with freelance work?
viral ridge
in what regards?
crude crown
sup ya'll
past crow
@viral ridge @mortal wedge ahh, nah i was wondering how easy would it be for a newer person to the language to get involved?
mortal wedge
Well, I'm pretty new to the language. I'm more familiar with C++. My first Python project is translating C code to Python. So I think there are projects out there that are more friendly to people who are newer to the language. I think generally speaking though, the expectation is that freelancers tend to be more qualified than regular employees.
distant crow
yes, the expectation is that a contractor/freelancer (I don't know if people make a distinction) are more expensive per hour than a regular employee because one or more of the following:
- they're specialists
- the terms of the contracts are usually easy to cancel. While an employee at least in the UK and Europe have something like 3 month notice periods to let them go, contractors' usually have cancellation periods of days.
- there's no guarantee of work. Outside what's written in the contract, the company may have more work for the contractor and renew or extend the contract, or it may decide it has no more work
- no benefits (no healthcare, no training, no gym membership, no pizza fridays, no pension, no safety offered by employment law such as unreasonable termination, or unemployment benefits)
- they have their own costs (such as in the UK having to pay their own Class 4 National Insurance contributions; their own business insurance)
mortal wedge
Yeah, I was referring to total compensation. Generally (in the US at least) 30% of your total compensation is benefits related
Oh, so , promises id update you folks. Got an offer for 10k/month. I knew they had at least 11k in the budget so I asked for 12k. I was paranoid they were going to rescind the offer.
Just heard back, they’re offering 11.5!!!
My wildest dreams was just getting 11k
patent vigil
idk if this is stupid or not, but would it be possible for somebody with say 1 year of python be able to get a smaller job? obviously not a full time job with little experiance, just kinda similar to a teen working at a store or somethin?
mortal wedge
Any chance you’re less than a year out of college?
distant crow
congrats
patent vigil
nah im just 18 lol, not looking for a job now but wondering bc im new to this type of stuff
mortal wedge
Ah gotcha
If you’re looking to get your feet wet, there’s always a lot of open source projects out there
You may be able to get an internship somewhere, too
Good way to spend a summer and you’re much more likely to get a full time job when you’re looking for one in earnest
patent vigil
ok thx
vapid jay
Oh, so , promises id update you folks. Got an offer for 10k/month. I knew they had at least 11k in the budget so I asked for 12k. I was paranoid they were going to rescind the offer.
@mortal wedge 10k a mo? that's wild
Any chance you’re less than a year out of college?
I never understood this
you wouldn't be looking for a job if you had one pretty recently
mortal wedge
Most of the entry level SWE jobs I've seen are willing to hire people with little to no experience as long as it has been less than a year since they've been out of college
mortal wedge
I was in that boat. I had to study and practice like crazy and go for something a step above entry level
It's definitely a challenge
Where you want every advantage that you can get
Relevant and recent work experience is huge at getting you interviews/callbacks.
distant crow
do projects
mortal wedge
It doesn't need to be paid projects, either
distant crow
of course, any relevant work experience is good, absolutely. but aside from those, projects
mortal wedge
Learn how to make a good resume, learn how AWS's work, too.
LOL SORRY
ATS not AWS >.>
Unless you're applying for a cloud computing gig, amazon web services won't help you get an interview
vapid jay
if you hosted projects on a private repo because of bad habits and committing private keys
and you only recently put it up on a public repo, would that be a bad look?
distant crow
if you committed a private key, and then deleted it, it might still be in your git history
best practice suggests you invalidate that key and get a new one
as for public repo...I don't think any employers are looking into your git history in that much detail
mortal wedge
^
Some employers do want links to your git though, and it adds a touch of legitimacy to your linkedin/resume
distant crow
yep
static smelt
Do you have any good sources on ATS stuff? Cause there's so much conflicting info...
(also, I'm kinda in that boat too now, but that was cause I legally wasn't allowed to work yet cause US immigration sucks :p)
naive sentinel
programmers dont make as much as doctors and lawers but idc i still love it
@FakeLolz#6257 i am not sure if there is a profession that has a higher entry level salary than software eng
@FakeLolz#6257 i am not sure if there is a profession that has a higher entry level salary than software eng
@naive sentinel even biglaw and investmentbankers might not make more than 150k first year, while FAANG might pay devs 200k+ first year from what i have heard.
usa tho
static smelt
definitely depends on the specific location too
distant crow
depends on country. in the UK, NHS doctors unfortunately don't make a lot compared to other countries like the US
distant crow
so in the UK, many programmers make more than doctors (NHS publish their pay scale, so we know, though some doctors go private and they probably make more)
mortal wedge
Yeah, FAANG will pay 200k+ first year
FAANG is insane
I had an interview with them but blew it >.>
@static smelt I learned a lot from a variety of different sources, talking to other job seekers, talking to people in HR, etc. So I don't know what I'd recommend to learn about them, but the best tool I've found for beating them is jobscan.co
They limit you on free scans to like 5 per month but you can get more by going incognito browser mode 😄 But you enter your resume and the job posting/site and they identify the ATS and give you tips and suggestions on how to beat it
ATS's are pretty much purely algorithmic to, so they are beatable
Making sure your resume looks appealing to a human is a different story though, ofc
static smelt
Thanks!
And it's hard, making it look good to humans and ATS friendly seem to be mostly mutually exclusive :/
At least going by the many "ATS friendly resume" examples I've seen
vapid jay
if surgeons here start at 100k while usa guys make 400k++
@naive sentinel isn't it harder to get in usmd schools?
is the secret to beating ats to put every buzzword from the listing in the résumé?
naive sentinel
@naive sentinel isn't it harder to get in usmd schools?
@vapid jay idk sry im german myself
vapid jay
how's it stupid then?
naive sentinel
what u mean
mortal wedge
@static smelt Yeah, that's the tricky part.
@vapid jay Different words are weighted different amounts. Buzzwords tend not to be worth as much, but key job requirements are weighted more heavily
and they're also weighted higher the closer they are to the top of the resume, in some ATSs
vapid jay
@vapid jay fyi u can delete git commit history
so ppl wont see ur keys
gitignore is also another option
vapid jay
I thought git was immutable @vapid jay
or can you modify the public facing history
like what ppl can see
so if ppl accidently leak private info
u can erase it
but then gitignore can prevent that
@vapid jay
unkempt ferry
Has anyone used a resume building service?
unkempt ferry
no like, a paid service
distant crow
highlight the language/stack on your resumes people! I'm reading a candidate's resume who I think is an excellent candidate, but they've mentioned no languages on their resume. I can't tell if this is even a python dev, I can only assume they've applied to the right place
obtuse thorn
Howdy friends, I've been reading a lot lately and looking at jobs.
I have a B.S and about 4 years
experience programming Python (self taught) as a hobbyist.
I am curious, is it possible (reasonable) to start a career as a python developer with no work experience in industry? Or how does one translate python skills and knowledge to work?
After reading for awhile it seems like most people are at the consensus that the only reliable way to find a job in python is to learn a completely different, more sought after language, then try to use that experience as leverage for a Python job. Any thoughts on this?
From what I see in job listing and other forums is that my B.s (not in cs or programming) and personal experience are worth just about nothing.
marsh wind
I can't tell if this is even a python dev, I can only assume they've applied to the right place
omg this is 🤦♂️
that is why you need to have someone proofread you cv
even if it is a friend/partner
because when you write it and look at it 1000 times you start to miss obvious things
distant crow
I rejected them in the end. I had to google their linkedin using <name> <previous company>, and look through references and stuff, turns out probably a .NET developer
but still not 100% sure
vapid jay
I rejected them in the end. I had to google their linkedin using <name> <previous company>, and look through references and stuff, turns out probably a .NET developer
@distant crow how thoroughly do you check background if you can't find it on the net?
distant crow
no, I don't give feedback at a screening stage, there are just too many candidates to do that for
I will give feedback after technical interview however
marsh wind
yeah makes sense
distant crow
here's the thing about checking backgrounds: I think candidates probably hope that I can spend as much time as needed to thoroughly evaluate an application to make sure everyone has the best chance possible. The reality is we can get 100 applicants a day, and if it takes me more than a few minutes each, then I'm going to spend the entire day looking at resumes. I don't want to do that, I have a million other things I have to do
and so the sad reality is, given the lack of time, and the number of applicants, my focus is quickly rejecting the candidates who clearly don't meet the requirements so that I can focus my time on the candidates that do, so they can get into the next round of interviews
also, I am more concerned about wasting my team's time on interviewing unqualified candidates than I am on the chance of missing a candidate who appears to be unqualified but actually is. This is a bit of a self-delusion, because I'll probably never find out if I miss a really good candidate who happens to be bad at writing a resume, but I'll definitely find out if the team collectively wastes 4 hours interviewing a candidate who actually wasn't qualified and should never have gone into those interviews
there are a lot more people who lie and exaggerate on their resumes than people who are really good but just happen to not write a good application. so if I let 9 bad candidates through to find that 1 unexpectedly good one, I've wasted a collective 36 hours of team's time for a candidate who still only has about a 5% chance of making the cut since they still have to compete with the other 19 candidates who are both qualified and can write an application
it's a numbers game, and I have to triage the applicants
people say that recruiters spend an average of a few seconds looking at every applicant. this is only half-true. I spend a few seconds looking at a resume if and only if it's obviously not meeting the job requirements, and I do this so I can spend more time looking at others that might be
unreal lantern
im an intern at a tech startup. Came up w this idea. Now its launching soon. Seems to be going well. Partnered with biggest payment processor in the country and b2b marketplace. They keep saying its mine but not buying it
my employement contract is offered next week
pls help
thx
should i ask for something for the app
or it's not mine
distant crow
what does your contract say about IP ownership?
most employment and intern contracts are pretty explicit about the stuff you come up with at the company being owned by the company
vapid jay
take the job @unreal lantern
they could do you worse by taking your idea then letting you go
viral ridge
in the states, do you have to then let the employer know if you have a disability
frosty cove
in the states, do you have to then let the employer know if you have a disability
@viral ridge
If you need special accommodations, probably
if the disability doesn't affect job performance, then you most likely aren't expected to mention it unless you want to.
viral ridge
well it somewhat does, since i'm using voice recognition
but just under normal circumstances there is a big difference, between programmers being really fast and some are just slow typers, and i guess in the end there is also a big difference in how people solve problems and write code
manic dock
@viral ridge I guess some employers will discriminate, regardless of law.
My father employs a blind developer, one of its best employee. If you're accustomed to your tools, blindness is hardly a disability for a developer.
distant crow
yeah, for sure, typing speed is very much not the limiting factor for most devs
frosty cove
blind devs are amazing. I had a blidn classmate and he was insane
He went on to work for Apple in their accessibility arm
broken shore
@vapid jay formal background checks are only done after selecting potential candidates as they are done by third parties and are expensive
most people who are hiring just google candidates if they need more information, which can be a pain
distant crow
not everyone does formal background checks, usually that's for high-security stuff, government stuff, and working with kids or vulnerable people. But many will do informal ones (usually just checking there aren't any red flags that could be evidence there would a problem working with this individual), as well as conduct reference checks.
for reference checks, it again depends on the position, and the seniority. The more senior the position, the more important the reference check is. The type of reference check also varies, it could be done by email, it could be done by phone. It could be as simple as confirming with an employer that the candidate previously worked at a place (to check they're not lying about past work experience), it could be a longer call discussing strengths/weaknesses
there is also a thing known as a backchannel reference, where the company doing the hiring finds someone who knows the candidate who isn't one that the candidate has listed as part of their application. The purpose of this is that the provided references are almost certainly only going to give positive feedback for the candidate, but finding someone else might reveal some more information these provided references won't mention
backchannel references take a lot of time and a wide network, it'll mainly be used for manager and exec hires
defamation laws in some countries also mean that people are unwilling to give any negative references. There's cases in the past where candidates have tried to sue former employers for defamation during references, and for most people the risk and hassle is just not worth it
as a result, if anyone actually declines to give a reference, that could be a big red flag
my preference for doing references is over the phone, you can get more information out of it, and you can read between the lines, people tend to be a bit more honest, especially if you phrase things a certain way, like "if I were to coach the candidate, what areas could they/should they focus on improving the most?" is a question that people will answer much more readily than if you asked "what are the candidate's weak points?"
mortal wedge
@distant crow It's from one of your comments from a while back, but yeah so many people don't know how to write resumes. A good friend of mine is a recruiter who helped me revamp mine, my languages/skills is at the TOP of my resume.
and formal background checks I'd really only expect in sec clearance jobs and/or aerospace
or defense industry, ofc
distant crow
yep yep
if you ever get the chance to do some hiring, it's worth it just for the experience of looking at a lot of resumes
and you know what, it should be relatively easy to volunteer for, since nobody really likes doing it
mortal wedge
Haha, yeah
distant crow
once you start looking at other people's resumes with an eye for hiring, you start realizing what recruiters are actually looking for. you get really good insight into how you should write yours
mortal wedge
I'm a little surprised though. Your company doesn't use an ATS?
They're kind of the devil for job applicants, but seems like it would weed out people applying for a python role who don't have the word python anywhere in their resume, lol
And yeah, almost every contract will take ownership of the IP of stuff you create, unless it's a background technology you created prior to working for them.
I'm also stunned someone would have a linked in but not include it on their resume!
shadow moss
What is ATS?
distant crow
it's not automated
still gotta screen those resumes
the truth is, I don't normally have to do the screening, but we're short handed
frosty cove
god resume reviewing is soul crushing. I reviewed resumes on my team and it was amazing how many people have multi year experience and still fail to put together a coherent resume
shadow moss
it is
I tell people that all the time, you think it's a PITA getting a job, it's also PITA trying to hire people
frosty cove
Lol it sure is
ionic flume
@frosty cove what are you looking for in a 'coherent' resume?
shadow moss
spelling, grammar, format choices that don't make me want to light your resume on fire
frosty cove
Please please please don't list every single keyword / framework / language / buzzword if you can't hold a conversation about it
vapid jay
Any suggestions for how I could make this more interesting? https://ecstatic-kilby-0411e2.netlify.app/
ionic flume
looks neat, i am trying to make something similar as well :p
shadow moss
While I am not an expert with every item listed, I do have varying levels of familiarity with all of them and am fully capable of quickly becoming productive with any of them, along with many which aren't listed here. Just no
ionic flume
@frosty cove do you prefer detailed bullets under work experience or something brief?
gilded valley
I hate that format
I don't review CVs
but that's very hard to follow IMO
and monospace fonts aren't easy to read
shadow moss
blue on white......
vapid jay
@shadow moss Why no?
shadow moss
Liveory, before we go too deep down this Rabbit hole, what country do you live in?
vapid jay
@gilded valley Suggestions for a better format? I thought it looked pretty decent.
@shadow moss The Unites States
frosty cove
I prefer bullets but a description can work too. Just be clear and avoid rambling on @ionic flume
gilded valley
make the links more prominent
shadow moss
don't be a passive, you can do this job and by god, I'll fight anyone who says otherwise
vapid jay
@ionic flume I've had several opportunities to freelance, yet they all have asked for a portfolio or personal website. Most settle for a github, but a good website would be hugely beneficial. So yes, I need one.
ionic flume
as a junior/entry level person seeking job, is portfolio website required? there are not many trophies to display :p
ionic flume
@vapid jay unless you are applying for front end freelancing jobs, for which you will have to display better things, with more visuals. for backend, i think projects on git work just fine
shadow moss
something like this is overkill and possible recruiter won't read it
ionic flume
i dont know if you guys know about sourcerer.io
shadow moss
you should flip the two columsn if you insist
vapid jay
@ionic flume I'm telling you I've had several offers to freelance for contract positions, but many of those reaching out to me wanted to see some sort of website or proof of work.
It's literally been asked for by several potential employers
gilded valley
if it's on a website - I'm not sure why you'd have columns which have no semantic meaning
shadow moss
people read left to right, I don't care about your projects, yippie, show me your technical skills
ionic flume
aah, i see.
shadow moss
if you interest me in first 5 seconds, I'll care enough to look at your projects
ionic flume
most of my projects were in startup with their websites/products already deployed, so I just provide the link
vapid jay
@gilded valley Can you suggest a better layout that has a modicum of decent modern design?
ionic flume
https://sourcerer.io/nimishverma you can see this for a layout suggestion, i guess.
shadow moss
we got a vomit of technologies include some broad stuff, maybe narrow something down
vapid jay
How so?
gilded valley
Here's a wireframe
shadow moss
AWS/Azure
ionic flume
neat
shadow moss
So how do you setup Traffic Managers with Application Gateways with right hand side routing?
specify which Azure/AWS if you want
like you did with Firebase
vapid jay
Hmm okay, thanks. I'll do that.
@gilded valley And thanks, I'll probably approach a design resembling something like that then
distant crow
please do include your projects, but somewhere at the bottom
craggy elm
what's your reasoning for that? it was always suggested to me to do the opposite (projects & relevant experience at the top, while skills section goes to the bottom)
gilded valley
Education > exprience > projects > skills > hobbies is usually what I see recommended from corps
distant crow
the main thing I want to see is your work experience
gilded valley
for new grads+interns
distant crow
unless this is a junior position and recent grads who don't have much work experience, in which case your education
and then projects
but I do want to see projects sometimes, because if you didn't knock it out of the park with your work experience, maybe you did some great projects
(but please don't put projects that were part of your college course unless you did something insane with it, because everyone on your course did those projects, yours is not special)
craggy elm
oh of course don't put school projects on there lol
ionic flume
for new grads+interns
@gilded valley experience would not be a big showcase for new grads and interns
vapid jay
What if the individual in question doesn't have a formal education, and prior work experience isn't related to CS?
craggy elm
the only thing that would be a caveat would be undergrad research
broken shore
I put a project page on my CV for what I did in grad school
ionic flume
or maybe masters thesis?
distant crow
yep, those would be good
ionic flume
what about publications/papers
distant crow
yes, relevant for data science and other positions where those are expected
vapid jay
I'm currently US Military, with about half of a business degree and a lot of vested time in self-learning programming and web development.
I mean it is job experience, but is it worth listing on something like this?
distant crow
not having formal education or prior relevant work experience is a really tough one if the job requires you to have had experience. You'd need to show some really good projects
easier if the job doesn't require x years of experience
vapid jay
Makes sense
gilded valley
Here's the base CV i used a while ago. Mixing actual experience and shitty event things seemed to work pretty well
iirc this exact version was for something I didn't care about - so I think it's a slightly shit version
craggy elm
im a bit curious about how often people from traditional engineering backgrounds transition to software dev/eng
would be interesting to know lol
gilded valley
lots do it immediately after their degrees
as in - they'll graduate from physics/eng/maths and go into software roels
craggy elm
im pretty much doing it now
gilded valley
at my megacorp internship, about half the grads were from non CS backgrounds
craggy elm
the mech. eng. field where im at seems pretty dead & i really like programming
distant crow
looks good to me, the way I read this is something like this:
- has Bsc in data science. noted. don't really care about grades or units (but might check later) unless the position specifically requires these skills. Good enough that it's a technical field with programming
- skipping A-levels and grades. don't really care, has BSc already, that overrides whatever you put in there
- Software Engineering Intern as latest job, this already scales what I think about your experience level - you've started a first job, so you'r next step would be a junior.
- I see
ReactandNodeJS, that gives me an idea of what skills you have already. - `Docker, and Jenkins CI/CD, these are relevant keywords to me, so that's good
scrumsure, good to know you've had this experience- November 2019, volunteer - not relevant to me at the moment
- Coding Jam Winner - nice bonus
- further down, Python, JS/HTML. some points here, entered a competition, that's good
- Technical skills: NumPy,/SciPy/SKlearn. good keywords for me. NodeJS, another keyword
- Scrum/Agile in the non-technical, good to know
gilded valley
grades were there because most places explicitly ask for that - and I didn't want to keep taking them in and out
distant crow
Beachtastic, I graduated with a general engineering degree
general engineering touches on electrical, mechanical, civil, chemical, etc. we're less qualified for any specific engineering specialization, but have broad exposure to them
craggy elm
oh i have a software dev job right now lol it's just that it's not advertised as such since it requires a lot of knowledge about thermodynamics and heat transfer
i went in thinking it wasn't, but i do like the type of work (office work that's creative and technical)
distant crow
yeah, having a broad skillset is useful a lot of the time, but on paper it just doesn't look as good as someone whose degree matches the requirements perfectly
craggy elm
i can def see that
distant crow
I think engineering degrees switch over to programming relatively easily. Most engineer program anyway
even mechanical engineers are always working in CAD, and doing FEA
craggy elm
FEA is the best
if/when i have time i want to try out implementing a machine learning algorithm for a VERY simple CFD situation
i've read that it's not used mainly because it can't achieve scientific precision, but im curious about how off they tend to be
im going off topic though i think lol
distant crow
it's an interesting topic, but I never want to have to think about EM-domain FEA ever again
gilded valley
Sounds like it's gonna be the same as in finance, where ML just isn't any good because traditional number crunching is better
gilded valley
that's not at all true
distant crow
ML is very buzzword these days
mortal wedge
I've talked to recruiters and HR people that say otherwise
marsh wind
What's EM/FEA
gilded valley
the order of education > experience > skills is what a lot of them look for
marsh wind
Fea sounds to me like finite element something
mortal wedge
In an ATS????
craggy elm
ML and AI are thrown out all over the office because we develop a kernel that's used for ML purposes
mortal wedge
Finite Element Analysis
craggy elm
FEA = Finite Element Analysis
distant crow
similar, we do actual deep learning
marsh wind
Ok, I was close heh
mortal wedge
Education/experience/skills is awful advice, I'm sorry
marsh wind
Chaos what country you speak about
gilded valley
I don't know what ATS stands for, but assuming it's the automated cv parser things, then yeah
mortal wedge
Applicant Tracking System
marsh wind
Very US thing heh
mortal wedge
It weighs keywords and other stuff and many weight words more heavily towards the top of the resume
distant crow
FEA is a method used to assess stresses/forces/fields in a solid material. It's used by mechanical and civil engineers to assess how much things bend under load, or the stresses and strains in them to make sure things are strong enough.
EM (electromagnetic)-domain FEA is the same thing but for electromagnetism, and is used by power engineers to assess how strong magnetic fields are going to be and what forces a motor can produce
marsh wind
I know some of that. Suspected it but wasn't sure
mortal wedge
Meseta, are you an engineer?
distant crow
I was, but I recovered
craggy elm
more broadly, it's a method for estimating reactions across continuous systems
marsh wind
Basically solving maxwell equations or parta of them numerically
mortal wedge
I find it more interesting and the pay is way more O_O
marsh wind
M?
mortal wedge
maxwell equations? 😛
mortal wedge
rofl
marsh wind
Maxwell lol
mortal wedge
I haven't had to do FEA in years
marsh wind
Ok I shut up xD. Not that I want to think of it much now
I am almost out of all this shit (shit being academia and research)
mortal wedge
nice
I like academia and research
Just generally doesn't pay as well
But I managed to find work that is essentially the same thing but pays but I don't think that's very common
marsh wind
And the work process, approach and general system sucks
marsh wind
It's not common indeed
marsh wind
Well if you have to do 5-10 years of post docs with salary equivalent to junior dev, without any notion of proper working hours, moving countries or cities every other year just to get a slim chance for permanent position ...
I say system is deeply flawed
marsh wind
France
mortal wedge
In the US at least, there's a lot of startup biomedical companies that are looking for software devs and they have good financial backing. They do exciting stuff, too. The only downside is that 95% of them go under so job security isn't always a thing.
Not sure how the situation is in other countries, sorry.
craggy elm
the thing for me is that, from what i've experienced so far, SWE jobs would probably allow way easier opportunity to move between jobs as opposed to traditional engineering jobs
marsh wind
Well I am in a startup now, data scientist skewed to dev side a bit
mortal wedge
In my experience SWE is really good at making sure you know your stuff and doesn't really care about where you learned it. That's because the coding interview has become such a thing and they can tell if you're full of it or not.
As opposed to traditional engineering where all they really have to go off of is recent relevant experience
(Recent relevant experience is good in general don't get me wrong, but is more highly weighted in traditional engineering roles than SWE)
@marsh wind Do you like what you do? Or would you prefer to be more on the dev side?
craggy elm
the funny thing is that where im at, they hire people based off of how good of a mechanical engineer they are, but they forget that traditional engineers/engineering students aren't educated in software engineering at college and probably have never done it in practice lol
marsh wind
I've only been here 3 months. But so far it really ticks with me. Cause I like research side but I also like to code
mortal wedge
Very cool, glad to hear it
@craggy elm At my school we had a few matlab courses and like... an introductory level CS course and that was it.
gilded valley
I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly. But so far it really ticks with me that means you like it right?
marsh wind
Pure swe, not sure I'd enjoy as much. Especially since if it comes to things like DS/A I am not really strong there
Yeah I like it
Not ticks, clicks
gilded valley
ah - good to hear. Doing a mix of different things definitely seems like a good career - but also hard to position yourself into
mortal wedge
Tech companies, at least in the US, do love themselves some DSA in their interviews
marsh wind
That is what I wanted to write but auto correct always shits on what I want to say
mortal wedge
Ducking autocorrect
marsh wind
ah - good to hear. Doing a mix of different things definitely seems like a good career - but also hard to position yourself into
@gilded valley yeah but I guess it's great for starting. Helps to figure better what is my thing without jumping jobs too much
gilded valley
I'm pretty sure I'd want to do that long term - but there's really not that much call for jack of all trades type people
Having fingers in lots of pies is only really feasible if you're like management at a small firm or something
mortal wedge
Jack of all trades are pretty desirable for smaller companies/startups where people generally fulfill multiple roles
Larger companies want specialists, though
gilded valley
Yeah - and small companies often don't have great salaries
mortal wedge
Right
marsh wind
Like in 1-2 years if I want to switch companies I will probably know what I prefer, DS/ML or more of SWE kind od things
gilded valley
or more precisely. They don't want super experienced people
mortal wedge
FAANG starts newer devs at like 200k+, about double what you'd get somewhere else
Machine Learning is a really cool field I'd love to look more into one day
craggy elm
that's also probably because the cost of living where their jobs are at are ridiculous lol
marsh wind
Jack of all trades are pretty desirable for smaller companies/startups where people generally fulfill multiple roles
Yeah that's our case, on tech side we have like 22 or 25 people, I don't remember exact count
gilded valley
here in the UK, they still offer much better salaries than most companies
mortal wedge
That's true Beach, but what's really cool (if you can call it that) in the age of the pandemic is that you can still get that baller salary and work from home
gilded valley
FB in London offer 70k graduate roles
vs other firms in the range of 25-40 usually
distant crow
yeah, in London they're a little higher, but can't beat SF or NY salaries
mortal wedge
Yeah
craggy elm
yeah i know, but it doesn't matter too much if you're still living in a extremely high CoL area
if you're in BFE and have a remote job at FAANG, then you made it big lol
gilded valley
highest salaries in the UK seem to be fintech actually
distant crow
yeah, but that's one good thing about London, it's a big city, and out in zones 3, 4 and further, cost of living is ok. commute is long though
gilded valley
I've seen graduate roles in fintech paying up to £100k
mortal wedge
Oooh, really have to know algorithm optimization in fintech
craggy elm
that's what im hoping lol
mortal wedge
100k is damn nice for a graduate role
distant crow
funny thing: when this lockdown started, a bunch of people straight up moved
gilded valley
100k is fantastic in the UK
opal perch
Yeah - and small companies often don't have great salaries
@gilded valley Depends, I know some people who had 6 figure salaries
gilded valley
what kinds of companies?
gilded valley
if you're paying 6figures, you probably aren't employing jack of all trades
opal perch
its not often
gilded valley
what kind of start ups I mean?
craggy elm
probably one that actually requires specialists
distant crow
in London, senior devs at Google and Amazon have a salary of around 100k
for startups in London, I'd usually need to be at a post-A startup, probably in an Exec/VP role for 100k
marsh wind
Salariés vary so much across countries lol.
I guess in France senior non FAANG dev is like 70k
distant crow
founders probably deserve that too, but investors prefer founders don't pay themselves market rate
very hard for a founder to get away with paying themselves 100k anywhere before series-B rounds
distant crow
well, that is why I suffered years of 1hr commute across london on a packed tube, twice a day
gilded valley
I really wish shit would spread out from london
distant crow
technically, I did this in SF as well, I lived out in the Sunset, took a 50 minute muni to work
mortal wedge
Also, I mean.... are we including currency exchanges here?
Because 70k in one country can be more than 100k in another, lol
gilded valley
right now, good UK tech roles are pretty much only in London and maybe Guildford/SouthEast
and Edinburgh actually
distant crow
there's a good sized hub in Cambridge also
mortal wedge
Any remote work in UK?
marsh wind
70k was €
gilded valley
Yeah, I forgot about Cambridge. There's some cool companies there
gilded valley
Some very snobby companies because of that reason
kind of places that will only consider top tier unis
craggy elm
like mine lmao
mortal wedge
They won't even look at you if you don't have one, even for entry level
mortal wedge
They're a big enough name that they can do that, yeah
gilded valley
especially in places like finance, where one person can generate tonnes of value
marsh wind
Lol I wish we had more of those here 😂
gilded valley
or consulting
craggy elm
apparently it's almost impossible to get hired where i work if you went to a public college
gilded valley
You could apply to jobs in the UK surely. Firms like Oxford Asset Management would like your CV
distant crow
Lossberg, are you in France?
marsh wind
Yw
mortal wedge
One thing that really sucks for a subset of people is that if you're looking for entry level roles, they really want you to be a recent college grad, like within the last year
distant crow
for some reason, at this company and my last, a disproportionate number of PhDs in AI were French
gilded valley
You're engineering right? I hear engineering firms are typically very stuck in their ways and old fashioned
mortal wedge
If you're trying to break into the industry and you're more than a year out of college, you have an uphill battle ahead of you
marsh wind
Like who actually did PhD in that field? Or stem PhD who work in ai?
distant crow
I think actual AI PhDs
craggy elm
it can be used for a ton of shit
marsh wind
Well. I think sklearn core devs and creators are French
distant crow
nice
marsh wind
And I saw some other scientifique packages with many contributors in academia here
So there are some strong research centers for it
distant crow
yeah, it feels that way
ionic flume
good thing I am inclined towards phd
distant crow
and I guess London is a convenient place to work abroad if you're from France....well, before Brexit anyway
marsh wind
Also France is kinda notorious for creating a degree for every kind of job
At least that's what I gathered from loclas
good thing I am inclined towards phd
@ionic flume in which country? And with what goals in mind?
ionic flume
I am gonna stick to canada, right now I am working on my masters thesis in optimization
the funding is even better in Phd so its gonna be affordable for me
marsh wind
and I guess London is a convenient place to work abroad if you're from France....well, before Brexit anyway
True. Although I don't want to work in finance which is one area that is very strong in London. Plus I am non EU, so until I get citizenship or quite some experience moving countries won't be as easy
ionic flume
i am planning to stick to optimization in engineering/social networks for my phd
coming to goals, my short term goal is to research and solve problems in social networks/engineering optimizations
though, i might end up working a year or two after my masters, because I dont wanna be the PhD guy with no fulltime work exp
distant crow
on the topic of social networks and optimizations, Facebook is putting a lot of resources into neural network compression
ionic flume
are you talking about pruning @distant crow ?
ionic flume
one of my colleague worked on it
marsh wind
I meant more the long term goala tho
But in that kind of project in mind you likely won't have difficulty finding a good job
ionic flume
I was initially working on generating GANs using metaheuristic optimization algorithms, but I wanted to work on making an algorithm of my own, first.
distant crow
cool cool
ionic flume
@marsh wind hopefully, but cant overlook the fact that I have no full-time experience.
I pursued my masters right after the bachelors, though i have good internship experience in full-stack dev, but I dont think if its considerable while applying for jobs
marsh wind
🤷♂️ Can't say anything for canada here
distant crow
worth including it
ionic flume
are you from EU?
distant crow
intern in full-stack is better than nothing. and full-stack is a good one to have
marsh wind
Me?
mortal wedge
Omg, definitely include your internship
ionic flume
yeah, @distant crow , i worked on a wide range of tech stacks. it was a long 9-month internship.
@marsh wind yea
marsh wind
In France yeah
distant crow
that's pretty substantial, you should definitely include it
mortal wedge
Being in education during the pandemic is also not a bad idea, tbh. Since the job market is more difficult atm
But maybe that's just the US because we're so fucked
distant crow
yep, it's opening up a little in the UK now though. I'm being harassed by Amazon head hunters
mortal wedge
Nice
marsh wind
how is the PhD scene there?
@ionic flume depends on what you mean by that :)
distant crow
one of them has put my resume that I sent them a while back through their system and are trying to get me to interview
marsh wind
And on field
ionic flume
@mortal wedge nah, even in Canada, the number of postings has dropped
mortal wedge
I'm in the biomedical industry and they're being... well, adequately careful. Been hiring freezes all year.
ionic flume
@marsh wind I mean education wise, are there good labs to perform research not just academically but in the industry as well?
marsh wind
I learned recently that there is a thing called 'thèse CIFRE' where you actually do research in company partnered with the lab
ionic flume
aah, i should learn French too i guess :p
marsh wind
And that is amazing opportunity and experience to have after
But in more academic fields like mine... You can do good research yeah but then 🤷♂️
ionic flume
true true
marsh wind
I mean education wise
Also in here PhD is not at all something I'd characterize as education in a same sense we call BSc or MSc education
We don't have courses or exams etc
ionic flume
i still am not sure if I would rather teach after PhD or get into the industry
marsh wind
And we have work contract with salary
ionic flume
@marsh wind yes, I got that. Used the wrong term, meant research.
even in my masters I had no exams, just 5 courses which I did in 8months. Rest has been pure research
@marsh wind like Seasonal Instructor/Assistants?
ionic flume
with companies or with professors?
marsh wind
Mine was with University
For CIFRE probably two contacts
Because it's two founding sources
Or one but then company will pay uni to pay you
I guess
mortal wedge
@ionic flume A lot of professors go into industry first, then afterwards go into teaching. Some professors manage to work at multiple businesses and teach, but they're just god tier.
ionic flume
yeah my supervisor does it, plus he is the Dean as well. LMAO
mortal wedge
Intense
ionic flume
very, I am one of his 3 masters student, and I dont get to meet him more than once every month
luckily, i have a co-supervisor as well, so I can be proactive and work faster
marsh wind
It was solid state physics,
mortal wedge
I don't know how people like that function, but everyone runs a little differently I guess
marsh wind
If we narrow down, it would be electronic excitations (plasmons) in gold surfaces using time depended density functional theory
@ionic flume
ionic flume
True that, some use a lot of Gatorades and coffee 😛
@marsh wind damn
what made you get into Python then?
distant crow
I didn't really get into Python, it kind of snuck up on me and twisted its way around me and now I can't get out
mortal wedge
I got into Python because I slightly exaggerated my skill with the language and then got a job in it 😄
by massively overexaggerating my skills, tbh
But the job started a month later so I've been cramming and I think I'll be okay
obtuse salmon
What careers can I land with Data Science: Application Development?
vapid jay
at my megacorp internship, about half the grads were from non CS backgrounds
@gilded valley what kind of backgrounds did they have?
gilded valley
mostly java and reactjs, some were on more esoteric stuff. The way the grad program worked was you'd get assigned a team for your first 6 months, then after that you'd find a team you like for the next 6 months and ask to join it until you find one you like as a permanent position
or leave
naive sentinel
does anyone gere know about the harvard CS50 course?
gilded valley
There were tonnes of different teams. There was web dev in a bunch of different shapes, there were devopsy/infrastructure roles, there were systems engineering roles making microservices
and basically, you could go to any one of the teams if you could persuade the manager to let you on
vapid jay
is this in America?
gilded valley
no, UK. But I think it worked the same way in the US (for this company)
I have no idea how standard that is. I know lots of grad schemes do these 6mo rotations, but I don't know how much control the grads have over it
mortal wedge
Someone with a Philosophy degree managed to get a job in SWE? Baller
distant crow
I have a friend who graduated with a Theology degree, who became a developer
the other day, I got a job applicant for the company he worked at, so I looked him up on Linkedin to see if he still worked there, in case I needed to get a backchannel reference
that's when I discover that he'd gone and become COO
broken shore
the research director at my company is a philosophy PhD
mortal wedge
Wow, that's crazy
vapid jay
coo? @distant crow
distant crow
yeah, exec position
mortal wedge
one of the fancy schmancy three letter acronym positions making baller bucks
distant crow
yeah, but the thing that boggles my mind is he joined that company stright out of uni, and he's worked all the way up
I don't think he's ever worked anywhere else
he took a straight shot to basically the top
broken shore
thats very rare
distant crow
from a theology degree, into software company no less
mortal wedge
Truly mindboggling
zinc fractal
in how many years?
does anyone gere know about the harvard CS50 course?
@naive sentinel yeah i completed it
distant crow
I think about 8?
marsh wind
what made you get into Python then?
@ionic flume choice of data science as potential career 😁
distant crow
it was probably that when he started, it's bigger now, I think
zinc fractal
damn thats cool
also, i see youre a recruiter and i have a question - is using a 2 page resume really that bad or is it overexxagerated?
zinc fractal
mind blown
marsh wind
People usually say that no one use scroll wheel for juniors CVs
distant crow
lol
marsh wind
I've not seen a single person say that 2 page CV for someone with 0-2 (sometimes 0_5) years of experience is fine
Unless it's academia of course 😁
zinc fractal
also, black and white resume or modern?
marsh wind
Where? Us?
distant crow
whatever is clearly formatted
imagine this: I'm screening CVs. I'm using a candidate tracking system. It's a long day, I have a lot of work to do, I'd rather not be doing this. Let's get it over with.
I click on the first candidate in the Applied section, scroll to their CV skipping any cover letter (I'll read that afterwards if there is one of this candidate is borderline and I need more info). I just want to find the keywords, and look at the employment history (focusing mainly on the dates, the title, and the skills used)
as long as your format lets me do that, great. I don't care if it's black&white or ultra modern and sleek. even if it were hard to read, I'd still read it but I'd be annoyed with you
(which may or may not introduce subconscious bias, I'm not sure)
vapid jay
so cover letters aren't read that closely?
distant crow
UNLESS this were a design position (which I don't hire for)
vapid jay
what would make the difference in a cover letter if they were borderline?
mortal wedge
Lol nobody reads cover letters
distant crow
at least I don't at the screening stage, unless the candidate was borderline
mortal wedge
I wouldn’t bother unless the company/site explicitly asks
marsh wind
I saw a very different opinions on the matter
vapid jay
all places I've ever applied to outside of CS ask for cover letter
distant crow
if they're clearly unqualified, they get rejected. if they're a good fit, they go through
marsh wind
for what I gathered cover letter is essential if you do a kind of cold emailing
distant crow
for borderline cases where I don't get a good read about their skillset or work history (often if CV is badly written or missing details), the info in their cover letter may help me make a decision
for cold emailing yes. I'm talking about applicant tracking systems. these collect applicants from the website, linkedin and other places who apply via online form
mortal wedge
But at that point, your time is best served making a good resume
Get through the ats first or you’ll never reach a person
vapid jay
do you have examples of good résumés that you ended up hiring?
distant crow
I can't share those
vapid jay
even with identifying information removed?
marsh wind
often if CV is badly written or missing details
I think you are on the patience side. People often they badly written resumes just got shreded 🙂
mortal wedge
Some people share those online
What loss said
You are definitely on the lenient side
marsh wind
Which is good for people heh
mortal wedge
Which is cool 🙂 as a job seeker
distant crow
well now that you say that, I'm going to start rejecting more people
marsh wind
lol
mortal wedge
😄
marsh wind
don't go to the dark side 🙂
speaking of good CVs, I think meseta gave quite good feedback on Charlie's resume example
mortal wedge
Unfortunately, you need to pick up job seeking skills that have nothing to do with actually working your job
marsh wind
So I guess if you ask nicely they might take look at yours too? 😉
mortal wedge
But it’s the only way to be competitive
distant crow
it's true. doing interviews and interview tech assessments as well
mortal wedge
Yup
marsh wind
yeah there are, I guess 2 essential skills there: CV/Interview + negotiations
distant crow
it's worth practicing with some companies you don't really care about getting into first, before you apply to one you really want to get, just for the practice
mortal wedge
Three steps to successful employment and there are different skill sets required for each
- get the interview 2) nail the interview 3) don’t get fired
distant crow
number 3 is an odd collection of weird things
weird career skills you never thought you'd need
like "managing upwards"
marsh wind
3') don't step on toes of people who might get you fired 😉
mortal wedge
One of the biggest life skills imo is knowing when to shut up
marsh wind
one guy told me that in his company his collegue got called out to HR dep for arguing with his manager (where by al account manager was wrong)
distant crow
it's sad when that happens, but unfortunately the world is full of people who aren't good at their job
mortal wedge
Some people are naturals at getting hired and terrible at their jobs
marsh wind
they didn't fire him or even threat to (they kinda could not for just that), but let him know clearly that he shold not do thar
mortal wedge
And vice versa
distant crow
yes, knowing what to say, when to say it, and how to say it, are part of "managing upwards" this is where you are basically managing or changing your boss's (or your boss's boss's) behaviour
vapid jay
what are you supposed to do if your manager is wrong?
vapid jay
woudn't that hit the manager wrong because you're subverting him?
distant crow
sometimes there are ways to do it tactfully
though sometimes there isn't
I'm not saying you can pull off magic
shadow moss
In United States 2 pages for resume max
And 1 page for fresh out of School
Ain’t nobody got time for more
mortal wedge
What rabbit said
And honestly you need like five plus years of experience to even begin to justify it
distant crow
just that sometimes you can say or do thing in a way that help you, and you should pay attention to that, and not just passively let management wash over you
shadow moss
If you graduated from school and have 2 page resume, what are you compensating for?
zinc fractal
i suppose past projects?
if you start coding at 14 and end uni at 22 you might have quite a few serious projects
mortal wedge
List your best projects then not literally all of them
zinc fractal
but probably just bad resumeing
mortal wedge
Or the relevant ones for the job you’re applying to
zinc fractal
i saw a person rate his skills on a resume and that took 1 6th of the page
because it was visual
mortal wedge
Bad idea because a lot of parsers are only taking in plaintext
vapid jay
so making résumés in LaTeX and markdown isn't a good idea?
so making résumés in LaTeX and markdown isn't a good idea?
distant crow
I do that, but only because my resume is already in LaTeX and I can't be bothered to make a new one. but if I had to re-do it today, I wouldn't
I am sick of LaTeX
vapid jay
isn't the formatting easy to work with vs word?
distant crow
every time I want to go fiddle with a margin or add something that isn't standard, I end up doing 10 google searches, installing three packages
vapid jay
"easier"
vapid jay
I mean to achieve the same thing with word with custom stuff, you'd spend hours in menus compared to LaTeX, no?
mortal wedge
When you start applying to a lot of places you’ll see which formats they except resumes in. It’s a short list
distant crow
depends how custom it is
vapid jay
that's what I remember when I was still doing custom formatting in word
but I found simpler was way better
distant crow
LaTeX is easiest if you accept the defaults, but any time you stray from the path, it's complex. It's very powerful, and has a high degree of automation so that once you set it up, you don't have to touch it. But it's also really not nice to use
Word is also not a typesetting program, so it's slightly unfair to compare
digital fjord
I like that I can write latex equations in word while keeping the easier word formatting.
distant crow
yes, latex equations is good
but say you want to make a table in LaTeX. that's very very very bad
vapid jay
I wish I had markdown for writing laboratory reports
would have made life so much easier
digital fjord
my one attempt was fine-ish for a table, but I just kept it as the defaults
ionic flume
just use an online tablegenerator to make the latex tables
distant crow
but back to the original question: CV in LaTeX is fine. Word is fine (export as PDF). other stuff is also fine. As long as you have it nicely formatted and easy to read
ionic flume
is there a need to have a separate section for Skills, if you are already mentioning what all you worked on in your projects/work experiences?
mortal wedge
Latex is fine if you’re finding a way to get it directly to a hiring manager. But if you’re applying to a company site, make sure their ats won’t butcher those tables
Yes, there is. Put it at the top and make it clear so they don’t need to go over your whole resume to determine if you have the basic qualifications
distant crow
I saw a plaintext resume once
zinc fractal
lol
distant crow
brave move
vapid jay
isn't that a good thing?
zinc fractal
"retro"
vapid jay
straight and too the point
distant crow
well no, the formatting was bad
zinc fractal
except its not readable
zinc fractal
well plaintext is hard to read
vapid jay
plaintext doesn't work for tables
zinc fractal
atleast use markdown
distant crow
I was like "nice try, but this is bad"
vapid jay
maybe gaming the ATS
zinc fractal
what tables would you have on a resume?
ionic flume
Yes, there is. Put it at the top and make it clear so they don’t need to go over your whole resume to determine if you have the basic qualifications
@mortal wedge where would you suggest it, at the very top, or after education and before Work exp?
zinc fractal
@mortal wedge where would you suggest it, at the very top, or after education and before Work exp?
@ionic flume not op but very top
ionic flume
what tables would you have on a resume?
@zinc fractal education maybe, I used to have one
mortal wedge
No tables on a resume if you’re talking about getting through ATS
zinc fractal
just curious, what would someone with no experience put on the experience tab
it would be pretty funny
distant crow
"I turned a computer on once"
mortal wedge
They would try to stretch for something/anything that might apply
ionic flume
@zinc fractal maybe internships
mortal wedge
Honestly they’d probably lie lol
ionic flume
if no internships, then someone gave good examples 30-40mins ago, they used their troubleshooting experiences and what not in the experience
mortal wedge
Oh I do want to clarify about resume length, that doesn’t apply to academia
distant crow
I've definitely seen lies out there. someone claimed to have contributed to Tensor Flow
mortal wedge
Academia feel free to make it long with all your relevant coursework
distant crow
I looked up the PR. He made one correction to the documentation
mortal wedge
Lol!
zinc fractal
lol
mortal wedge
Nice for being technically true
ionic flume
should I start the resume with a summary or is it an overkill?
mortal wedge
Not really needed
vapid jay
did the PR get accepted though?? @distant crow
ionic flume
then it is contribution xD
ionic flume
jk
distant crow
the contribution is fine. the claim of it as experience was not
vapid jay
"contribution to large open source project"
mortal wedge
It’s misleading yeah
ionic flume
very
zinc fractal
contributed to the development of windows by reporting a bug the devs found impossible to reproduce because of my dumb config
ionic flume
probably "made some open source contributions " would be less misleading in this case
mortal wedge
This is my mindset. It’s okay to stretch the truth on your resume to get the interview as long as you’re fundamentally capable of doing the job and nothing will blow back on the hiring manager for taking you on
zinc fractal
contriburing to open source is hard
especially if its a big project
like django or angular
with smaller projects its easiee but they have less feature or bug prs
ionic flume
it is, indeed, time taking as well
distant crow
I dunno, I'm not a fan of someone who's more than willing to lie about their capabilities. Maybe they're the kind of person who is open to lying to get an advantage over others (who work hard and are honest), or maybe they're the kind of person you ask a question to, and they give you a bad answer because it suited them at the time
vapid jay
so basically, fake it till you make it
distant crow
not sure I want someone like that on my team
ionic flume
I do not know how to format the skills section, does it have to be in points/bullets? or does a small 2-3 line paragraph work?
vapid jay
I can understand why some might do that though
distant crow
sure, good for the individual I guess, but I have a vested interest in not allowing that kind of person on a team, I think that would be bad for everyone else
vapid jay
if the only place they chose to be deceptive was to land the job because they had to play the game, how could anyone be able to tell?
just playing devil's advocate here
not actually endorsing it
distant crow
basically, I'd rather hire someone who wasn't deceptive and yet still met the requirements for the job - that person would be even better qualified
could I tell? maybe not, maybe I missed it. hopefully it gets flagged in subsequent rounds though. And when it's done it'll have been a big waste of time for everybody
if he gets through and is adequate at the job? we've just wasted an opportunity to hire someone more deserving who might have done better
marsh wind
I once was asked to send my CV in word format after I sent pdf .... 🙄
mortal wedge
The situation is already inherently biased to people whose resumes look nicer or who are better at interviewing. I don’t disagree with what you’re saying and I think that’s a good way to look at it, but...
gilded valley
a lot of places like word
marsh wind
Needless to say for a person who did it in latex never heard from them again
gilded valley
I'm guessing because it's easier for HR people to highlight stuff
mortal wedge
Man when you’re unemployed for two years you’ve got to do something or you’ll starve. Nobody wants to hire someone with unemployment gaps
gilded valley
it's pretty dumb given that word is pretty good at autoconverting pdfs to word docs at this point
distant crow
it's an imperfect system, and people are going to exaggerate, not much I can do about it, but I won't reward those who I catch doing it
mortal wedge
Maybe you’d be different but you’re not even getting in the door at 99.9% of places
Of course
distant crow
well I mean doing it too far. some exaggeration is basically expected. I don't like it, but everyone's doing it
marsh wind
Also I like my CV in latex so far. But it can be a Pita lol
gilded valley
it depends on how you see interviews I think. If you go into it as a transaction, then lying makes sense. If you go into it as an exercise to see whether you actually fit the job/company, lying doesn't make sense
why is it a pita?
mortal wedge
Generally job titles/descriptions of your duties can be embellished and doesn’t have to be something your old supervisor would agree with
gilded valley
wysiwyg seems like a massive pain for CVs, because adding one thing just messes everything else up
marsh wind
Well. When you want to fiddle with template for example because you don't want the exact original one.
mortal wedge
Last job I worked with developers and helped them out in between jobs, even though my manager yelled at me because it made him look bad
ionic flume
would you prefer phrases in your skills section, or bullets?
f.e
Skilled in Python and Python-based web development frameworks - Django and Flask.
or
Python
Django
Flask
mortal wedge
I still put assisted developers on my resume
marsh wind
Then you end up tweaking two numerical values and recompiling pdf iteratively fill you get it right
distant crow
I'm guessing the one-liner actually takes up less space. go with that. Also highlight Python, Django and Flask in bold for easier scanability
marsh wind
+1 to highlight
ionic flume
That's what I am thinking, a list would waste alot of space horizontally
ionic flume
I'm guessing the one-liner actually takes up less space. go with that. Also highlight Python, Django and Flask in bold for easier scanability
@distant crow okay, thanks for that
thats a nice format tho
distant crow
yes, this is nice highlighting, it's like you tailored it for a Python position
marsh wind
yeah, Data scientis position
mortal wedge
Btw, Lossberg that’s a good idea to list all your languages and level of familiarity
marsh wind
it is a modified overleaf template
ionic flume
not sure but shouldnt it be bash*,* Fortan?
can you link me the original template if you dont mind?
marsh wind
maybe, yeah. it's just that it was more relevant
ionic flume
I am using AwesomeCV on LateX rn
ionic flume
no, i mean the comma (',') between bash and Fortan. I am not sure tho
mortal wedge
Also, if you can, tailor your resume to the position especially if it’s an important one
ionic flume
alot different than this
zinc fractal
yeah there should be a colon
bash and fortran are different things
also, why do you know fortran?
ionic flume
Also, if you can, tailor your resume to the position especially if it’s an important one
@mortal wedge okay
marsh wind
also, why do you know fortran?
@zinc fractal 😂 academia
right, got it about comma, good catch lol
mortal wedge
Yeah same reason I know assembly lol
vapid jay
there was this package that generated word from python
ionic flume
aah, thanks Loss
vapid jay
kind of want to try using that to make something in it
ionic flume
right, got it about comma, good catch lol
@marsh wind yes, i was pointing the comma :p
mortal wedge
Hello world generates two 🙂
mortal wedge
Also, don’t fudge employment dates or make up working at a company you didn’t, lol
A lot of companies will terminate you when they find out
vapid jay
didn't you say the opposite before?
vapid jay
now that I think about it, if you wouldn't have gotten the job if you had a gap, do you really have anything to lose?
marsh wind
there is a difernce between stretching the truth/exaggerating and flat out lie
but gaps are tough anywhere
mortal wedge
Well, that’s more of a moral question at that point. Whoever hired you will get blowback for failing to check your employment dates
marsh wind
like, they make them biased against you even if you had a perfecttly valid reasons
mortal wedge
Yeah gaps suck
I self employed myself to get rid of my gap
I did like three consulting projects over the course of two years, but just listed myself as a consultant for the whole time period
marsh wind
in my current place they asked me what I did after leaving lab during tech interview one day and than other day twice, first HR then CEO 🙂
but here I know about a person got fired from a high position and hired after about a year of uneployment
mortal wedge
Nice
It’s definitely not the norm and it sucks so hard that it’s harder to get a job when you don’t have one and it just gets more biased against you over time
marsh wind
so it sucks, yes. but not impossible. He had to make some compromises postition/salary wise
mortal wedge
Yeah, naturally. He was far less competitive of an applicant
marsh wind
but afaik now he's recovered fully from that
vapid jay
leaving laboratory? @marsh wind
marsh wind
research lab ye
vapid jay
but here I know about a person got fired from a high position and hired after about a year of uneployment
and what do you mean by this?
marsh wind
that is about employement gaps: the man was fired from high salary and, I think management level position after years of experince in the company
distant crow
I think he's allowed to take a break after that
marsh wind
it took him about a year to find new one, where he had to take a compromise in form of quite lower salary
wel yeah I don't think he went out to job hunt right away
distant crow
if he said "after x years working my ass off, I took some time off for myself to relax and unwind, didn't rush to find new work", I'd totally believe him
marsh wind
yeah, thing is they still figured that he was kinda fired rather than left
distant crow
ok, there maybe something up with that
vapid jay
what'd he get fired for?
distant crow
but at least I'd pass him thorugh on the screening. the firing stuff I would pick up later
also senior positions like that have extra steps, we have to have board/advisor interviews and backchannel reference checks
marsh wind
i dunno details but essentially he made some mistakes that as I was told costed some imoney. So they decided that he's too expensive and said him he's underqualified for job
in the end officially he left by mutual agreement
it was not actual "fired"
shadow moss
I'm pretty sure that senior executives sole responsibility some days
mortal wedge
A few months is expected, a year is bad but still doable, more than a year and well... Good luck getting interviews and if you DO manage any at all you better have a good story.
distant crow
I'd love to take a year tbh
distant crow
yes
shadow moss
yes and no
mortal wedge
Also, the best way to get around gaps like this is to find a way to get your resume directly into a hiring manager's hands
ATS's will spit you out
shadow moss
in theory, sabbaticals exist, in practice, few people have ability to take advantage of them
mortal wedge
Generally involves knowing somebody at the company and/or going to the company's networking events
shadow moss
since it's expensive to do so and few companies will allow them
mortal wedge
If your resume game really sucks, that's your best bet
Yeah, I've never really known anyone in practice who has taken one and still been with the company
vapid jay
seems like a privilege for high execs
mortal wedge
Yeah. Not something likely most of us will ever see
shadow moss
yea, it's a privilege for those who probably don't need the privilege
ionic flume
does this look too wordy for the resume?
distant crow
yeah, for something like this, at least use bullet points
ionic flume
yeah, i think the same
distant crow
looks like you have four bullet points the one with Python/Django, Flask, Java, C++
the one with the AI stuff
the one with docker, AWS, nginx/gunicorn
the one with linux, and git
ionic flume
the only downside with bullets are they are leaving alot of white space on the right side; but that is anyway better than this
distant crow
logical split: core language and backend stuff, AI stuff, devops stuff, and general linux/tools competency
mortal wedge
white space is not necessarily terrible on a resume
ionic flume
yea, that is nice way to classify them.
vapid jay
oh dear
mortal wedge
But meseta's advice is solid
vapid jay
that is initimidating to look at
ionic flume
agreed
ionic flume
i had that before, wanted to try out a paragraph-sort thing; failed badly
shadow moss
I wouldn't break it up by level
ionic flume
but meseta has raelly good classification that i can use
shadow moss
generally your skills should be in order from strongest to weakest
mortal wedge
Languages: Python/Django (expert), Java (proficient), C++ (prior experience)
Something like that is what I like to do
shadow moss
you might filter yourself out
name of the game, talk to a human, don't give any reason to get filtered out, but don't lie either
distant crow
new radical idea: colour your strongest skill reddest
vapid jay
could you do expert: lang1, lang2, proficient: lang3, lang4, familar with: lang5, lang6?