Becoming a mentor is one of the best things to do after you got mastery
#career-advice
wheat oxide
@weary forge @distant crow Plenty of people use the tools at their disposal for entirely selfish purposes. That's not new to anyone.
distant crow
I'm sure they do
weary forge
I don't get the point of your statement then
It's probably as simple as understanding money
It's just a tool
like, yes???
great, it's a tool, but we all already agree on that
distant crow
did you know, you can use a $5 bill to open a beer bottle? now that's real using money as a tool
weary forge
lmao
I know a guy that opens his beer bottles by using his snus container and just bonking it on the cap
wispy bloom
You can pay someone to do it, with the bill
inner wrenBOT
Hey @weary forge!
weary forge
whoops
distant crow
ah yes, an exchange of goods and services. Thanks for bringing this channel back on topic
weary forge
Hell yeah brother
wheat oxide
@distant crow Did you know that $480 can save a child's life?
covert scaffold
this went off topic fast
wispy bloom
@wheat oxide 1$ also can save a kid, a hungry one.
wheat oxide
@wispy bloom Not taking all factors into account, no
covert scaffold
you're litteraly discussing uses for money
wheat oxide
$480 is a result of hard analysis
@covert scaffold Which can affect career decisions
And should
And whether you waste money on garbage like $300 bottles and wasteful gas-guzzlers
weary forge
It's not a waste of money if you enjoyed it
Since enjoyment is by definition subjective
wheat oxide
It's a waste, but yes, you can lie to yourself
weary forge
@wheat oxide so some things are inherently better or worse?
wheat oxide
@weary forge Yes, but they're difficult to measure precisely, which some people use as an excuse to lie
viral ridge
You guys not wasting your time on this discussion can save a child
distant crow
that's some solid logic, guys
weary forge
"What would you do, if there was a child right in front of you"
mild pilot
Just a reminder that this channel is for discussion about "Python and the world of work"
covert scaffold
^
mild pilot
So please try and get back on topic
viral ridge
Since I am with a disability, i don't have the same options as you guys anymore, sucks to suck
wheat oxide
@mild pilot Career goals seems relevant to me
wispy bloom
I would be more happy if i see a kid who s not hungry instead of paying 500$ for a 5$ stuff just because someone is seeing it cool. The corporations are selling shits for a high price, and quess what?, It works.
weary forge
It's not python though 
mild pilot
@wheat oxide As long as it's related to python it is OK. This is a python server
wheat oxide
@mild pilot Decision to pursue Python as a career > opportunities to do good in the world
viral ridge
Indeed it does, the human race is a materialistic and selfish piece of biological junk
mild pilot
@mild pilot Decision to pursue Python as a career > opportunities to do good in the world
@wheat oxide
I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
Now please get back on topic before I have to start muting people
viral ridge
guess not all of us are human after all
mild pilot
We do have off-topic channels
vapid jay
Hell yeah, who wants to drive a bike when you can have a chauffeur driving you around ?
Lets swap channels
weary forge
@naive sentinel Okay so let's bring it back, your lifestyle when earning fat stacks is perfectly acceptable and don't let contrarians tell you otherwise
CS could definitely work if you are entrepreneurial
wheat oxide
@mild pilot Money and what you can do it with it is entirely relevant to the world of work. I don't know who you're accusing of being off topic.
viral ridge
what exactly do you mean by it could definitely work?and what and what regards
covert scaffold
it seems more and more like you're itching to argue and dispute..
viral ridge
in what*
distant crow
I should mention, from personal experience, Engineering (like EE or computer engineering) are also quite good subjects for entrepreneurship aside CS. I think EEs don't get a lot of attention because CS is just so huge, but some might enjoy it too
weary forge
@naive sentinel The most important part is recognizing an issue in the world, finding out how you could solve it / make it/ do it better and then earning the stacks.
distant crow
a lot of software development positions ask for CS or related, and EE and related engineering fields count
weary forge
Making a product and marketing it, in short
wheat oxide
@weary forge Refusing to let others correct you is terrible career advice
viral ridge
if you know you are going to be an entrepreneur probably computer science is not the best way to study
wheat oxide
@weary forge Terrible advice
weary forge
hahahahaha
distant crow
I'd agree with solid on that. You don't necessarily need a CS degree to be entrepreneurial. in fact a lot of people running startups don't have ,and don't use their degree. though I do think formal study of CS and engineering are very useful
viral ridge
if you are already a computer science graduate and you end up being an entrepreneur that's cool and not unusual at all
distant crow
yup!
vapid jay
@weary forge I was looking to sell masks B2B during the rona for example, but guess what.. there were tons of other people(big companies) already providing masks to the government etc. Being an "entrepreneur" sounds much easier than it is. Atleast when it comes to being a "financially successful" one.
weary forge
Of course it sounds much easier than it is, but he wanted to make money, so it won't be easy either way
And yes, ofc you don't need a CS degree to be entrepreneurial, but if you A) want to make software and B) want to make money then the logical steps are there.
viral ridge
not really
mild pilot
@mild pilot Money and what you can do it with it is entirely relevant to the world of work. I don't know who you're accusing of being off topic.
@wheat oxide
This channel is for Python related careers talk. I'm not sure what about that you don't understand
wheat oxide
@mild pilot People deciding on careers consider factors like the significance of money. That seemed to be the area of conversion you claimed was off-topic.
wheat oxide
That wasn't the question, no
weary forge
Ight boys I'm dropping out, have fun
distant crow
my thoughts on studying CS is: you don't need it to be entrepreneurial. I came out of uni with a general engineering degree, which didn't have many CS topics - I was mostly focusing on electrical engineering and biomedical. BUT I found the technical background very useful for going on to do a career that involved a lot of programming
vapid jay
Bye
weary forge
o/
distant crow
and speaking to other startup founders, many of them don't have CS degrees. I think programming in general is a topic where a lot of it is about your experience. The formal training of a CS degree is very helpful, but it's actually not going to stop you from starting something if you don't have it.
where you will start needing a CS degree is once you start getting into specialized topics, like machine learning, computer vision, AI, NLP, etc. etc.
vapid jay
I mean, you can outsource everything anyways, no?
wheat oxide
Plenty of people work on those without CS degrees, technically
Certainly a good choice if you plan to go into those though
distant crow
you can, for sure, and in fact entrepreneurs without CS degrees end up hiring those with to do more specialized roles
vapid jay
Or you just apply to one of daddy elons companies without having a degree
distant crow
I don't have a CS degree, but there are PhDs on my team who do the heavy lifting
but I'd never discourage getting a CS degree if you have the opportunity. It's hugely helpful
and there are other benefits of going to college - you meet people, it's an experience, all that
vapid jay
The question is, is it better than getting a good finance/medicine degree ?
distant crow
(whether it's worth it, financially, depends on where you are and personal circumstances, I'm lucky to be outside the US, where it's substantially cheaper)
covert scaffold
that question is equivelent to geting a bmw or an audi
vapid jay
Opportunity-wise
mild pilot
@mild pilot People deciding on careers consider factors like the significance of money. That seemed to be the area of conversion you claimed was off-topic.
@wheat oxide
If you are just here to make dumb arguments then please leave, this channel is specifically for Python related careers discussion, I'm pretty sure I've made that clear multiple times yet you refuse to listen. The discussion here was going off the topic of the channel.
distant crow
on whether it's better than finance/medicine, that's really hard for me to answer
totally different industries, I'm not really familiar with careers in those other ones
wheat oxide
@mild pilot I don't need to resort to calling your arguments "dumb" without basis, so I'd check again which one of us is being unreasonable.
@molten spoke Is this how moderators are expected to behave?
covert scaffold
at this point he's just looking to argue 🤷♂️
distant crow
seems so
vapid jay
@covert scaffold kind of. But still, getting a medicine degree highly limits your opportunities imo. You cant just decide to move to country x tomorrow and work there as a doctor, as you might have to get licensed, and in order to get that, you might have to learn the language to near-native level. While being a software engineer might give you the freedom of moving everywhere you want because you arent bound to a language/location.
covert scaffold
well, of course the opprotunities that are provided with each, are fundamentally different
vapid jay
So I feel its not entirely like comparing a bmw to an audi
covert scaffold
if you want to be a digital nomad
vapid jay
like*
covert scaffold
you're probably not gonna be happy with a career in medicine
craggy wave
@wheat oxide I don't quite know what you're getting at. Discussing the "use of money" isn't on topic for this channel and your attitude about being told so is quite bad.
The topic of this channel is quite well defined; please stick to it
And you don't have to become argumentative for the sake of being argumentative
just cut it out and listen to staff instructions
wheat oxide
@craggy wave The "world of work" is included in the topic and the motivations for choosing careers was part of the conversation. Choosing finance for profitability vs. another path for work/life balance was explicitly mentioned. Is it okay if I call what you just said a "dumb argument" or is that exclusively a privilege given to moderators?
craggy wave
@wheat oxide
Please read this again:
And you don't have to become argumentative for the sake of being argumentative
Let's get back on topic.
wheat oxide
@craggy wave Projection
craggy wave
!tempmute 285924258125971456 2H I think I was clear.
inner wrenBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @wheat oxide until 2020-07-06 13:20 (1 hour and 59 minutes).
craggy wave
Now, everyone, get back on topic
vapid jay
distant crow
thank you
I think what you're saying is true, Ifduomate, medicine sounds like you'd manly focus on medical things. My brother studied medicine, he's a doctor today. You still have opportunities in enterpreneurship though - there's plenty you can do with medical practices, medical devices, and stuff like that
vapid jay
Its probably the safest way to make a couple millions if you really want to.
My opinion atleast.
distant crow
here's an example of an odd one - gait analysis is a subtopic of medicine. It's where you study walking strides. it's a set of diagnostic tools to look at how people walk. But what's interesting is the same technology that's used in gait labs have found their way into film-making and motion-capture equipment. Today similar technology is used in VR
(gait analysis is often used by athletes, and also physiotherapy for people recovering from surgery or injuries)
vapid jay
Im not too familiar with medicine tbh
distant crow
me neither, I have a little bit of exposure to medical instrumentation through my uni course, so I only really know about that half of the course
vapid jay
But sounds interesting, I wish things would advance faster so I can experience some of that next level VR action hehe 🙂
distant crow
for sure. there's some cool stuff
vapid jay
I am also interested to see what the neurolink company will come up with in the next decade or so
distant crow
I think the world will have to face the very important question in the future: do you trust Elon Musk with your brain?
vapid jay
Once we can connect/read our brain tons of new things should be possible, thats highly interesting imo
Haha yeah:) Stuff like improving humans just like you might add a few lines to a code surely sounds scary
I am not sure how much you can trust him with the things he says tho
distant crow
yeah, fortunately a side effect of the work he does is to drag the rest of the industry along, so hopefully there'll be more people working on it. Interestingly a company like that could be using python heavily due to all the signals processing and AI tasks involved
it's a good industry for Python
vapid jay
Might sound logical, but it's difficult to understand if you don't have deep knowledge on the topics. Like fighting diseases by placing things into your brain that send out impulses or whatever 
distant crow
I'm not sure how much influence the brain has over immune response, that might have to be a biochemical thing
vapid jay
Yeah, I don't quite remember everything, but I once listened to a podcast about this
Lots of cool stuff is waiting for us to be studied hehe
distant crow
yep, if you like that kind of stuff, biomedical engineering might be more appropriate. It's a relatively new field. Medicine would be more aligned with becoming doctors
vapid jay
I should probably let myself be freezed after death so some scientists bring me back in a hundred years, so I can experience all the cool stuff :p
You said you run a business?
distant crow
for a while yeah
vapid jay
How do you approach potential customers ?
distant crow
depends on your business. businesses tend to be split into B2B and B2C. a B2B business sells to other businesses, the way you approach customers is a bit different to B2C which sells to consumers
vapid jay
Yeah I know, I am into B2B and was into B2C myself 🙂
Just having difficulties in getting B2B sales to be totally honest.
distant crow
if you're selling to businesses, then you tend to need to make more direct connections with them. If you're selling to consumers, then you may be focusing more on marketing than what could be called "sales"; though this works with businesses too
vapid jay
Lots of People I talked to (B2B guys) mostly used traditional methods like cold calling.
That might work for smaller businesses, but I am honestly not the type of guy to sit down and cold call people all day.
So far I have been mostly writing e-mail which was semi-successful. Which basically means it wasn't successful.
distant crow
right, B2B sales also has a new kind of category - think Dropbox, and Slack. This is sometimes called "bottom-up SaaS" and sort of sits between B2B and B2C
cold calling, cold emails, yes, these all suck. I'm on the receiving end for a lot of it, and I pretty much 100% ignore cold emails and try to get off cold calls as soon as possible
but, sometimes you need to do it
vapid jay
I remember myself getting calls, and just can't really get how it should work out properly. Maybe it's just the mentality of people where I live tho.
distant crow
There's an excellent book I' drecommend, one sec
Traction, by Gabriel Weinberg and Justin Mares
Gabriel Weinberg is the CEO of DuckDuckGo
vapid jay
Yeah exactly, and because it would never work on me, I feel like it won't work out on others aswell.
There are other family members of mine who also run successful businesses, and they also get tons of "spam" that they ignore.
Thats why I never really believed in cold calling etc. to work.
distant crow
he talks about the 19 distribution channels you can use
distant crow
I think a lot of people conclude the same thing you do, but I'm not an expert in this area
naive sentinel
poor Armin got drowned out
@weary forge
shadow moss
BTW, most successful businesses people are not always computer people. In fact, most aren’t
distant crow
ok, but if you're reading this, you are already a computer person. whoops...
eternal stratus
Hi, atm a very close friend of mine has a job in the US involving computer science where he makes $120,000 per annum. I am not trying to flash cash I just think this info is relevant. He is 23 do you have an idea of what he will make in 10 years?
distant crow
seems about right for a dev with 2 or 3 years experience in a tech hub like SF
lavish geyser
depends on the company, thats probably salary
if its in a tech hub there will also probably be stock options and maybe a bonus
ik amazon is at about 210-230 total comp for their mid levels
then you have other benefits like insurance and sometimes car etc
eternal stratus
Is that pay before or after benefits?
@white karma before taxes no benefits
eternal stratus
ik amazon is at about 210-230 total comp for their mid levels
@lavish geyser
so on average for the jobs 220 would be safe to say after 10 yrs
lavish geyser
you get more from your vesting options and your bonus
eternal stratus
so 250?
shadow moss
Cost of Living is pretty high in SF as well
distant crow
yeah, was was going to say, base salary probably will 2x to 3x in 10 years. but his non-salary comp could be pretty high
I'm talking at least his salary if not twice. but kind of depends on market conditions and stuff
eternal stratus
He plans on getting a phd... he isnt going to work till then
I expected more from stock options
250k in total
?
distant crow
hard to say, the salaries span quite a big range over there, and the tech giants skew things as well especially on how they scale salaries
distant crow
I don't know the whole range, but I do know that some senior engineers have seven figure packages
eternal stratus
hmm do u know what they started on their first job after degree
also how long till u become a senior eng
distant crow
I mentioned already that 2-3 years experience, $120k sounds normal for SF
when I hired juniors in SF, it was in the $85k to 100k range, but note that the low end were people who had degrees but not CS degrees
shadow moss
Imhereforthattoo! there is no timeline, most people never become senior
eternal stratus
this is his first job
he was offered 100k somewhere else in the us
Imhereforthattoo! there is no timeline, most people never become senior
@shadow moss
makes sense but for the seniors how long did it take them
distant crow
yeah, there's no timeline. maybe minimum 5 years, maximum forever
shadow moss
only friend I know who went out to SF and became senior did it in 9 years
eternal stratus
so u got a range? u said 7 fig but a range?
shadow moss
I don't know his salary, pretty well would be my guess
distant crow
nobody really tells you these things, but assume 1 point something million comp package
eternal stratus
so would 800k to 1.2 make sense
distant crow
🤷♂️
eternal stratus
i wasnt expecting people to tell people i was expecting seniors base pay to be public info
distant crow
it's not because nobody wants to reveal this, and it's not based on anything simple like years experience or anything
distant crow
ooh nice
shadow moss
so probably less
eternal stratus
he will prob go to a diff company in a bit
distant crow
probably should be revealing where he's working tbh
reef kayak
Anyone knows what is going to happen with career fairs this year?
distant crow
especially if discussing salaries
eternal stratus
probably should be revealing where he's working tbh
@distant crow
he doesnt actually work at veeva ill tell u that much
reef kayak
Rip
distant crow
sure. still
reef kayak
My school just went online for fall and they hold a big career fair
distant crow
especially the cheap branded pen industry
without careers fairs, who's going to keep that industry afloat?
what are we going to do with all these pens?
marsh wind
Well they might in some 10yrs
For salaries companies can make quite an effort to keep salary numbers under the hood
Because open Data for salaries benefits employees but not employers
Otherwise how could they lowball candidates
copper parrot
Hi guys, I am strugling to find a job as a data scientist. Are there any professional data scientist working in Europa, Asia, or USA? I want to send my CV and if he/she can check fastly and give some advises about CV and projects I did or should de to improve my change. I really need it, and if someone help me, I would be reeeealy appreciated.
distant crow
which country are you applying in?
just curious, and may help people come forward to help
copper parrot
Basically, I am flexible. I have finished CS master degree on EPFL and I am non-EU. First, I have found a job in ZUrich but they rejected my work permit application so I gave up for Switzerland. I am loooking for Europa, Scandinavia, UK, Singapore.
I am keep getting rejection and I do not even invited to a first meeting. I have applied quite much but no luck. I think I am doing something wrong.
distant crow
I don't have time today, but if you DM me tomorrow I might have time to help
I'm in the UK, I've hired previously in the US as well
copper parrot
I am sending a dm. Check it out when available. Really thank you.
distant crow
ok, expect sometime tomorrow, remind me if I don't get back to you
ionic flume
Hey guys, I'm about to finish my thesis MS and am looking to work on projects / a full-time as a Backend Developer or a Data Scientist. Im based in Ontario, Canada.
lofty light
Congrats! You'll probably have an easier time finding a job as a backend developer than a data scientist
copper parrot
Much much easier I think.
marsh wind
You can send mw too@copper parrot
copper parrot
@marsh wind thank you as well. I am sending.
ionic flume
Congrats! You'll probably have an easier time finding a job as a backend developer than a data scientist
@lofty light I am more inclined towards backend for my initial stage of career and plan to switch to a data scientist role after my PhD. But I am curious, why its easier for me to find a job in backend than data science?
As someone who no full-time experience, I am worried on landing my first job since they all require experience. I pursued my masters right after my bachelors, my work experience is only limited to internships I did, which were in mainly full stack development. My projects, papers, and thesis on the other hand is in optimization/data science.
lofty light
I can just tell you from my personal experience at tech companies in the past is we've seen many many qualified data science candidates for every 1 qualified backend developer. Data science is really in fashion right now and the barrier to entry to learn it has never been lower. Perhaps others at other companies have seen differently?
signal zephyr
Meanwhile, in the defense industry, we can't find qualified data science people to save our lives
mortal wedge
Any independent contractors in here?
I know this is sort of a weird/personal question maybe that has many factors, but how much would you ask for about a 2 month gig of tedious but not overly difficult work?
clear orchid
@signal zephyr As a data scientist who left the defense industry, that's because the tech restrictions are suffocating.
@lofty light I think I'd agree with that mostly, although with the added caveat that that only applies for junior roles but It seems like that's what's being discussed here. The opposite is most definitely true for more senior roles though.
shadow moss
Ryan, yep, it's always the case of people chasing whatever new hotness is being sold by tech "education" industry
couple years ago it was CyberSec
ionic flume
Meanwhile, in the defense industry, we can't find qualified data science people to save our lives
@signal zephyr also i dont think they hire immigrants
@shadow moss , agreed. It is really hot right now, everyone wants to get into it, but no one really knows about it
ripe wasp
I'm currently planning to go into college for bioinformatics, does anyone know how saturated the field is there?
I'm still setting up classes for my first year of college, so I haven't stuck with anything yet
white karma
@ionic flume What sort of qualifications do you needs for the defense industry data science sector?
ionic flume
Coldwind, I think @signal zephyr would know better.
@ripe wasp not really sure about if its saturated, if you wanna get good at it I would suggest you keep a habit of reading researches and papers.
ripe wasp
Alright, thanks
signal zephyr
it's tough, because being a data scientist in defense usually requires some very deep domain knowledge in addition to data science expertise
and @clear orchid also has a very good point, the tech restrictions are extreme
the Navy is just now figuring out that Docker and k8s are things
i suppose I'm in a very niche realm, but I'm my own data engineer and viz person in addition to being a data scientist. and i also have to understand sensor systems and real aircraft in high detail.
oh and yes as @ionic flume said, in the US only US Citizens need apply. and for work that requires some higher clearances i hope you're a natural born citizen and you don't have an active dual citizenship. or have any serious arrest record. or any financial difficulties. or have any close friends who are foreign nationals, especially from countries that are on the state dept's naughty list
ionic flume
@signal zephyr exactly the kind of restrictions xD
clear orchid
Yeah I went through the domain knowledge thing for a few years. I make more money and get more freedoms outside of defense.
clear orchid
defense and those TLAs... aka "domain knowledge"
signal zephyr
it's the four and five letter acronyms that get you
ionic flume
data science requires a lot more domain knowledge than commonly believed by people getting(/new) into(/to the industry) industry
clear orchid
👏 Excellent
signal zephyr
much of my life is 5 letter acronyms
clear orchid
MLIFLA...
ionic flume
are you House MD?
im curious if python is preferred over java in (some) industries for Object Oriented Development
signal zephyr
<shrug>
no one sets out to do object oriented development, they set out to solve problems
ionic flume
true
shadow moss
as someone surrounded by DoD, the biggest issue with clearances is financial
signal zephyr
like, they couldn't even get an interim
you know how dumb you have to be to not even get an interim
i could get the unabomber an interim probably
shadow moss
almost all of it is financial
signal zephyr
https://ogc.osd.mil/doha/industrial/2019/18-00751.a1.pdf this is the weirdest one i've seen
shadow moss
any therapy to address it. Adverse decision affirmed.``` That's going to sink youOk that's a strange behavior, but the frequency is what's really striking.
mortal wedge
Geez
mortal wedge
Oh, I was just shocked at what I read in Greg's link
I guess the details don't need to be in open chat
My bad
open patio
yeah, i would prefer if that stayed away in that link. thanks
marsh wind
https://ogc.osd.mil/doha/industrial/2019/18-00751.a1.pdf this is the weirdest one i've seen
@signal zephyr wow the amount of info and detalis they dig on people is impressive.....
and also the fact that all the appeals and hearing results/discussion is public
I mean, they don't disclse applicant name
but still
mortal wedge
Honestly it should make people think twice before doing frivolous appeals
signal zephyr
@sacred wave apologies, dude.
shadow moss
Lossberg, this is for security clearances
Reason it’s public is security clearance investigations are supposed to use these rulings to help them decide
latent wigeon
Hi Guys, I got an interview coming up for a Data Analyst role, i applied for, I have been told that I will be given a dataset and within half an hour i need to analyst and produce a report. I am still working on my learning and analyzing skills. Could someone give me example, what kind of analysis one can carry out on a simple data set? Thank you in advance.
frosty cove
If it's time series, the length of history. Coverage of unique entities included (companies, stocks, products, etc.) Outliers, data distributions over time, basic statistics if it's numerical data. Clusters, groups, etc. It depends heavily on the data unfortunately. Look at what sort of company you are interviewing for and determine what datasets they deal with @latent wigeon. This is just scratching the surface though
shadow moss
UltimateChaos, people have to appeal, in defense industry, if you lose your clearance, you are finished, you will be fired from current job and unhirable in industry. Which for tech people can be a serious problem because depending on your time in defense industry, private sector won't want you
white karma
Is it possible to become a data scientist without a degree? It’s probably a no but I figure it can’t hurt to ask
frosty cove
Sure. Plenty of places will hire people without degrees.
shadow moss
possible but difficult
data scientists reports tend to be used by upper management to make decisions and issues in those reports can cost company serious money
lofty light
I know data scientists without degrees, data scientist with unrelated degrees, and data scientists with full PhDs. In the tech world it's the wild west for data science right now.
mortal wedge
A lot of places just want you to have the ability and don’t care where you got it
Just have to be able to prove yourself
marsh wind
. Which for tech people can be a serious problem because depending on your time in defense industry, private sector won't want you
@shadow moss why?
languid hemlock
Hi
signal zephyr
I'm a data scientist. My bachelor's is Engineering Physics. master's degree in Fluid Dynamics
UltimateChaos, people have to appeal, in defense industry, if you lose your clearance, you are finished, you will be fired from current job and unhirable in industry. Which for tech people can be a serious problem because depending on your time in defense industry, private sector won't want you
@shadow moss << IDK about that, if the hard pings I get from private industry people are any indication my time in the defense world is seen as a positive, not a negative
shadow moss
Lossberg, In general, they work on older tech
signal zephyr
there will always be some who disdain it but there are plenty of others who don't mind
gilded valley
Are you us or eu based
signal zephyr
@shadow moss what basis do you have to make these generalizations
shadow moss
again, broad broad paint brushes
GregHouse, I've worked for them, Captains and Colonel Incorporated
Mid sized sub to Lockheed, tiny 8A to Raytheon all in IT roles
signal zephyr
you seem biased
like, what you're saying so totally doesn't match what I understand to be reality that you come across as having an axe to grind
you worked in IT?
shadow moss
and now I'm SRE in private sector
Yes, Recruiters will probably beat on your door, doesn't mean much
some places will care, others won't
signal zephyr
so you're a site reliability engineer and you think you know about what data scientists in the defense industry do
you're hilarious
shadow moss
I work with data scientists
signal zephyr
like you have so little of a clue what was going on in those places that you don't even know what you don't know
signal zephyr
lol you have no clue what you're talking about with respect to this issue
shadow moss
developers/IT folks I've seen struggle mightly
shadow moss
I'm not giving data science advice
I said
Which for tech people can be a serious problem because depending on your time in defense industry, private sector won't want you
can be
signal zephyr
whatever dude
shadow moss
chill out, it's fucking .gov work where you are well paid and mostly stable
signal zephyr
okay homie
dusty mulch
vapid jay
i have no career cus im a little kid lol
distant crow
enjoy it, kid
vapid jay
im actually a teenager but i still have 0 career
distant crow
we work our asses off, don't get paid enough, and generally not have time to do fun things
vapid jay
seems fun
reef arch
I'm feeling kinda in a hole, I'm a data engineer and have been looking for jobs for a few months, had four final rounds and I failed all of them
A big part of that is that I don't have production experience with a lot of the technologies used at bigger tech shops, like spark, kafka, airflow
Really that's keeping me from getting my foot in the door at several places
Would it be worth it to just pivot, and try to learn, like Django? Because it seems there's a lot more hiring happening in the application engineering world
Like all of my coworkers at my last job (our entire office shut down) got jobs I think, except for me
They're all frontend and backend, I'm the only data engineer
distant crow
if you're interested in that stuff and willing to learn, it might be an option to do that
shadow moss
jame, data engineer probably pays better but web coding is more plentiful
reef arch
@shadow moss with years of python data engineering behind me, could I pivot to web coding off a personal project?
Or would there still be the issue of having no professional web coding experience
distant crow
having personal projects that demonstrate your familiarity with it is better than having none
whether you can prove enough that you have the experience and skillset, that's going to depend on the examiner
woeful spruce
data work seems easier to me. Surprised it pays better.
shadow moss
in most cases, data work tends to be important to the company, you are filtering the data they need to make decisions and screw ups on your part can be costly
where standard web dev doesn't have that responsibility riding on their shoulders, downtime can be expensive but not always
vapid jay
I'm working on a portfolio site that lists out like, 3 different columns of information. I dont really want to deviate from the current design as I'm really happy with it, but I'm trying to think of what 3 "pillars" of information I should use. Originally I had
"Web Development", "General Programming", and "Other". Then I decided to make it "Experience", "Technical Skills", and "Other". But decided against that too.
Anyone have any suggestion for what 3 informative pillars I should use?
I will say, I'm primarily a web developer, but I do have other experience outside of web dev specifically.
Also, my "Experience" column would be really weak, which is why I decided against that structure lol
vapid jay
Well I know you said you like the design, but since you're struggling with finding columns you like I would suggest trying a design without a table (Techincally a single column). Each "row" would be a project you've worked at, a tiny introduction to the project, when you worked at it and how long it lasted, what you did specifically, some keywords on technologies you used (Like AngularJS, Spring MVC, Google Cloud Platform, etc)
Making a table makes everything very compact and hard to "fill". Unless you have a lot of experience the table would be quite sparse. But this way, you can room to expand on each project and easily fill a page or two with projects you've worked at
Is there any person who wants a website? I want to make money to pay it for the CKAD Exam. 😦
muted breach
hi
wooden void
Hello World. I am a developer who already has some commercial experience. I live and work in a small town, so there are no large companies here. I managed to work Flitter developer for half a year, Android developer for a year and a little front-end backend (node and python). After many trial and error, I realized that python is a language that I like and that I want to work with. But since I studied everything by myself, I definitely have knowledge gaps. I want to sort this out. In order to prepare for the interviews and improve my knowledge, I ask you for help. If you have any project or you need help in development - write to me. I will help you and follow all your instructions in return for your experience and advice. I agree to work for free, if only to increase my level. I would be grateful for any help
upbeat elm
just find some popular Python OSS projects and contribute PRs
mortal wedge
Has anyone had a job offer rescinded because they tried to negotiate salary?
vapid jay
what happened? @mortal wedge
mortal wedge
I've never had a contract this big before so I'm really nervous about it, but it still seemed a bit low, so I tried to negotiate a bit of a higher price and haven't heard back.
So I'm internally panicking 😛
Just wondering if that's a thing in programming/python development, people getting offers rescinded for trying to negotiate.
frosty cove
No, I don't think you should feel nervous about negotiating salary. Unless you're asking for a wild increase
It's a normal part of the hiring process
mortal wedge
I did some math and I essentially know they have 10% higher in the budget for the project, at least. So I asked for a 20% bump hoping they'd counter offer with 10%.
That's not too wild, right?
frosty cove
I think you're better off asking for 20% bump if they know (and you can demonstrate) that you have the experience/credentials to warrant that sort of increase. I do agree usually it's better to propose something a bit higher that you expect to get
mortal wedge
Yeah. I'm of two minds. Due to the pandemic I'm just doing gig work. On one hand I need every dollar I can get, on the other hand... I need every dollar I can get, lol
frosty cove
Ah, ok I thought you were negotiating a salaried position.
I would be more wary then, because I think when hiring contractors, companies feel they have more power. They can always find someone who will take what they want to spend. If you're asking more and you have the experience to back it up, then I think you can respectfully say that
mortal wedge
Well, they were originally looking to hire me for a salaried position, but I didn't fit the long term goals of the company. But they liked me so much, they still wanted me to work for/with them. This is supposed to be the start and they want to offer me more projects and possibly a fulltime position depending on my work quality
I chatted with the head of their science division about algorithms for hours, lol. He loved me
I also learned about his marriage
🤷♀️
I didn't consider that companies feel like they have more power with contractors though.
I've never been a contractor before
I'd much rather be salaried, but I understand the allure
Finish a project in a quarter of the time you still get paid
I don't know about all of you, but I find it really hard to determine how long it takes to finish a project
tired sage
I have that same issue
Luckily I always add 33% more time than what I think I need just because something unexpected always shows up
mortal wedge
That's a good idea
frosty cove
It sounds like they like you so maybe you do have some leverage for asking for a bit more money
mortal wedge
I'm still going to take the gig no matter what, even if they can't raise it at all
I have no other offers
I hear that it's pretty uncommon to have an offer rescinded due to negotiation, but... I've read some horror stories and it has made me paranoid
frosty cove
Good luck! Let us know if you hear 😛
mortal wedge
Thank you! Will do 🙂
zinc fractal
best ways to find freelance clients?
little oyster
best ways to find freelance clients?
@zinc fractal same question
vapid jay
didn't fit the long term goals of the company
@mortal wedge what do you mean by this?
mortal wedge
They had a lot of short term goals due to them changing business models. In the long term though they wanted someone to make python web apps and I haven't made any
I blew past their qualifications for their short term goals, but fell short on the long ones
@zinc fractal Keeping up a strong online presence, having a portfolio, networking, etc.
Although networking is a little harder right now 😦
My gigs have been limited since I haven't been able to network in person
tawny bison
Part time jobs?
Has anyone worked a part-time data cleaning or modeling gig
I'm a newbie and I'm having a hard time competing for gigs
mortal wedge
Well, contracts are not necessarily part time
You could be pulling 50 hours of week on a contract
I only do one contract at a time
Being a newbie in any industry really blows 😦
Even being a contractor is usually not something someone does until they have a few years under their belt
tawny bison
Yes sir 🥛
mortal wedge
If you're trying to be a newbie gig employee you've got a tough road ahead
Especially if you don't have industry contacts yet
vapid jay
junior dev jobs don't exist anymore huh
mortal wedge
Even junior dev jobs are looking for like 1-3 years
It really bites being at 0 years
tawny bison
Dum dum dummmm
mortal wedge
That's why you get internships in college if you can
vapid jay
can't you just fudge it
and say you did an internship at a family/friend's business
assuming you have the relevant experience
but just don't have those résumé bullet points for experience @mortal wedge
gilded valley
that's not really fudging it - that's just lying at that point
fudging it would be overstating your experience/skills/contributions
lying is a bad look. You will get asked about it in interviews
vapid jay
but if you did have the know how, you'd still be at entry level, no?
that's what someone I know did
they did work for a family friend and wrote it up to make it look big
gilded valley
unless you're an incredibly good liar, most interviewers will be able to figure out you're lying about something as big as that. A simple question like "How did you find communicating with your co-workers?" or something similar would already be pretty obvious that you're lying. Experience is about a lot more than skills
vapid jay
how else would you answer with than good?
the bar isn't very high for programmers compared to other more people-oriented jobs, is it?
gilded valley
iunno. I'm an intern myself, I've only done 3 interviews for internships. But in all of those, there were questions about soft skills/experiences that I would not have wanted to blag
vapid jay
I mean
going in without preparation would be dumb
I mean, have an answer for those types of questions
gilded valley
Yes, but it's very hard to come up with convincing lies for all ares - it's just a bad idea
vapid jay
well
gilded valley
especially as overcoming a lack of experience is pretty easy by just being genuine
gilded valley
there are jobs other than programming
but
even if you could literally only do programming jobs
I don't think lying is the best route to a job
vapid jay
not well paying ones these days
gilded valley
just polishing up your existing CV is better
vapid jay
lol that's optimistic
gilded valley
I know people who have done it. In the pins is someone who has done it
vapid jay
done what exactly?
gilded valley
gotten a good programming job with a bad cv and no lying
vapid jay
I am having a hard time following you
meager nymph
Where do you look to find jobs to apply to? Linkedin? Indeed?
Whenever I see a job posted there, I see 100+ applicants right away/within an hour.
gilded valley
I'll summarize. You don't need to lie, just polish the truth and highlight stuff that makes you employable. Stretch the truth if you need to, but lying is probably a bad look. That's my advice, no one has to listen to it
I probably could quantify what defines good. But I don't really think it's necessary. They like their jobs and are happy with their pay
advice is even a strong word. I'm too early on to even really be giving advice like that, just what my limited experience tells me (and what I've heard from others)
vapid jay
that's fair
mortal wedge
@vapid jay The longer I was unemployed the looser I started playing with the truth, lol
THe gig I'm negotiating now I way oversold my python qualifications. I'm just lucky they didn't need me until a month later so I had a month to cram the language into my skull
mortal wedge
They had a deep and convoluted algorithm codebase written in C by a game developer that had left the company. They needed the code re-written in Python in a way that it was readable. They also needed Python web apps developed.
mortal wedge
Right.
But they were impressed enough so they wanted to hire me on to do the first part and if they liked my work they'd give me more gigs and/or a permanent position eventually
vapid jay
what kind of projects did you have in your portfolio that helped demo your abilities for the first part?
oh I see
mortal wedge
I worked at a nueroscience startup like 6 years ago and did algorithmic work in C++ for them. The job I was applying to was also a small neuroscience company.
It was enough for me to get the interview.
Resumes are all about getting the interview, then it's up to you to show your chops
vapid jay
are startups where the money is at?
soak up the investor funds, then jump ship to another one?
mortal wedge
Startups get a lot of angel investor funding in the biomedical industry. It's unique because 90% of them are expected to fail and there's no hard feelings if it does. It's because small companies do the exciting R&D work that is generally too risky for larger companies to invest resources in.
(I'm a DSP/algorithm engineer in the biomedical/medical device industry)
So I wouldn't really say it's where the money's at, but it's where the exciting stuff happens
Startups also look for different things than larger companies in interviews. They tend to place more emphasis on you being a culture fit for the company than your past experience, for example.
What's your career/employment status, if you don't mind me asking?
mortal wedge
You're working in very small teams in startups, so the whole team generally gets to meet you and see if they like you
Ouch. Sounds like you're considering a career change? What field do you think you'd find more fulfilling?
vapid jay
strongly so
I enjoy programming a little bit but I'm not sure if I'm ready for all the non programming aspects of this field
mortal wedge
How so?
vapid jay
I've read some people feel it's not for them because of the forced sitting and learning/coding for hours at a time but I'm fine with that part
I've only done basic stuff to augment what I've done at my current thing
but as a programmer, I think I'd be under time constraints
and under bureaucratic/political(?) constraints
@mortal wedge
mortal wedge
Hmm
Well, one thing to keep in mind is that the world of programming is pretty large. There are so many things you can do with it. If you're tracking coronavirus cases in some countries, sure you'll be under bureaucratic/political constraints. It's true that there will be time constraints, but I think it's still a given that a good portion of a developer's time is spent thinking about what to code other than just constantly coding 24/7.
vapid jay
I haven't had any industry experience with coding, so my idea of it is probably distorted
whatever project I had I just hacked away at it until it was done and thought about it whenever I wasn't at the computer
mortal wedge
I totally get that.
Well, you can always look for an entry level position or maybe even a step above that if you can swing it. Just need to find a way to leverage your current job/coding experience
Still, you should go for it 🙂
vapid jay
I still think I have a long way to go before I can even be at entry level
what would I even be able to do with a non CS degree?
@mortal wedge
whoops late reply
mortal wedge
No worries!
Well, I don't even have a CS degree 🙂 What's cool about the programming field is that they care more about your ability than where you got the knowledge.
I recommend seeing if you can learn about data structures and algorithms. Most companies will test you on these things to test your ability.
They're also just good to know in general.
Most interviewers will let you code in your language of choice (Python is generally recommended for interviews)
But yeah, honestly, even without a CS degree you aren't really limited, industry-wise
What's your degree in, if you don't mind me asking?
vapid jay
chemistry
and you?
I'd have to have something science related to be a scientist in the first place
mortal wedge
Ooh, nice! Biomedical Engineering for me.
Hmm
Some courses will give you certs upon completion. I know coursera generally does. That goes a good way to proving yourself. You'll probably have the best luck finding a programming role that's somewhat associated with Chemistry.
vapid jay
your degree has engineering in the name though
mortal wedge
True
vapid jay
which has more leeway
mortal wedge
It does. But at least you're still in STEM. Liberal arts might have been a harder sell.
mortal wedge
I didn't want to take any chances. I made a robust linkedin with certifications, testimonies, etc. etc.
Some companies have asked for my github along with any certifications
One of the reasons I'm trying to learn github now >.>
broken shore
Chemists tend to find themselves in various fields in high positions, don't need to worry about your degree, it's STEM and you have the smarts for coding
mortal wedge
Familiarizing myself with how the site works and how their version control system works.
vapid jay
is that not a thing you do by default?
mortal wedge
It was pretty jank, but the last time I had to manage a vcs I used google drive, lmao
vapid jay
I can't imagine not having version history on my scripts
mortal wedge
One industry tool down 🙂
vapid jay
because I did so much stuff to it that if I screwed up royally, I'd have somewhere to go back to
oh I see
I had no awareness it wasn't a default thing
mortal wedge
Yup!
vapid jay
Chemists tend to find themselves in various fields in high positions, don't need to worry about your degree, it's STEM and you have the smarts for coding
@broken shore I actually have an aversion and disdain for the words 'smart' or any form of it
vapid jay
personal thing, but I don't think that's what it takes to do well in most areas beyond academic testing
yeah for sure, I was venting a little
distant crow
Understanding github for work is a bit more than just understanding the website and git itself, it's also about understanding common git branching schemes, and code review processes, and ideally some pros and cons of the different options
most employers who require "experience with version control" don't just mean "knows how to use git and github", they also mean "has enough experience with git flows that they can immediately start taking part in development activities". though frankly this only takes a few hours to learn and if you've contributed to open source projects, you're half way there
the kind of flow I'm talking about is stuff like: why do we have prod-stage-dev-feature? is stage needed? is CI/CD going to build every commit or every tag or on PR only? where do hotfix branches get checked back in - to dev or to feature, or none at all, and what are the pros and cons of this?
so, Github and knowing git commands is just the start, but there's more to knowing version control. Hopefully these aren't hard requirements for the job, since it doesn't take long to pick up. But I hope this goes some way to explain what employers mean if they expect you to have experience with it
marsh wind
Where do you look to find jobs to apply to? Linkedin? Indeed?
Whenever I see a job posted there, I see 100+ applicants right away/within an hour.
@meager nymph that's true. But i bet 80 out of 100 didn't even read the full description
And are immediately discarded on first screening
@vapid jay you have MSc in chemistry? Or PhD?
marsh wind
Hehe
Well thing is if you are really fit for position it's very possible your CV will be actuallt reviewed and possibly you will get a fall
broken shore
as someone who has hired in the past, a lot of CVs are thrown out on the spot as they don't meet the requirements or are wildly overqualified
liked someone with 20 years of experience applying for a jr level job
distant crow
always a red flag that one, I've sometimes passed those people onto interview stage just in case and to see what their deal is
it's never turned out ok
there were either a lot of red flags about why they've done that, or it was someone looking for a more senior position but just trying to get through the door
mortal wedge
@distant crow Thank you! Looks like I'll start with that and then uh.... figure out where to go afterwards? What would you recommend for the advanced git stuff?
broken shore
yeah, it's always really weird, HR gets the most bizarre CVs, I swear most candidates can't read or something
mortal wedge
Meseta, you sound like a hiring manager?
crude crown
20 years of XP and applying for a Jr level job? what in the ?
distant crow
I think you did right by looking at Github, not saying that was bad. I suggest you read up on Git flows, at least that'll give you some exposure to the language and some of the models: https://www.atlassian.com/git/tutorials/comparing-workflows/gitflow-workflow
crude crown
maybe it was the case of someone changing fields?
distant crow
mortal wedge
Thank you, I'll check it out
To be fair, I've seen "junior" level jobs asking for 5-7 years of experience
Or "entry-level" asking for 2-3
crude crown
entry level and junior are one and the same I think.
never heard of anyone distinguishing between them
distant crow
yes, I've hired and incidentally currently in the middle of hiring for two positions
crude crown
but having jr level jobs require that amount of XP is ludricous
mortal wedge
Oh nice
distant crow
I think a lot of the time that's really an HR error
crude crown
but I'd say that's a case for putting unrealistic requirements in order to bring people with an H1B
crude crown
it's a temporary job vista that allows you to work in the US
distant crow
I've mentioned before (I tweeted about this recently) that a lot of the time managers want to open a new position, and they tell HR to make the ads, and then HR go to the devs and ask "hey, what skills does this position need?" and then the dev just wants to get back to work, so half-assedly lists out 10 items off the top of their head, and then HR sticks them all into the "requirements" category and calls it a day
crude crown
that's where these meme worthy job postings usually come from.
mortal wedge
Gotcha
crude crown
they put up impossible requirements
distant crow
HR tells management "devs signed this off" and management are like "ok cool, they're smart guys they must know what they're doing"
crude crown
claim they couldn't find americans
crude crown
and then onboard people from cheaper countries
distant crow
that is true also, mach
mortal wedge
Maybe some companies are just so wildly successful they can get away with being picky af
gusty yarrow
Hi
mortal wedge
"Must have phd and prior industry experience for this ENTRY LEVEL job"
distant crow
it goes both ways however, the H1B as well as O1 visas have a skills requirement, so sometimes a company has to put out an ad as proof that this person coming over is fulfilling a high-skill job
mortal wedge
Maybe some companies just don't have an AWS so they have to make the job reqs ridiculous to stop people from applying 😄
stop most*
distant crow
especially the job requirements, iirc it's much easier if the requirement is for a Masters
mortal wedge
Most places I've seen for junior/entry level positions are "2 years of industry experience and a bachelors or 0 years of experience and a masters"
distant crow
yeah
crude crown
that seems more reasonable.
mortal wedge
Then I've seen some places like "Just be an awesome enthusiastic person, we don't care if you have a degree!"
crude crown
usually older-school companies are more strict with academic degrees.
distant crow
you'll be happy to know that I never make a degree a requirement on dev positions, it's always in the "Nice to have/An ideal candidate has" section
crude crown
that's what I usually see too for sw dev positions
but for example
for DS positions
you'll need a degree for sure.
distant crow
yep
crude crown
or at least... all the jobs postings I've seen require one.
distant crow
yeah, and I think that's right - especially with AI/ML, it does involve a lot of reading papers to find the latest developments
broken shore
@distant crow yeah, a lot of HR doesn't take the time to do proper job analysis
it's usually pretty half assed
distant crow
yep
mortal wedge
DS?
distant crow
I started as a power engineer
crude crown
but I'm currently "branding" myself as an ML engineer
mortal wedge
Nice
distant crow
you like small signals, I like BIG signals
mortal wedge
How is it panning out for you?
crude crown
and I do work with signal processing and machine learning
mortal wedge
Yeah, I'm open to other things, but so far I'm being cast mostly as a EEG signal processor
crude crown
haha meseta, yeah I was one of the heretics of small signals.
distant crow
the stuff you guys do is black magic as far as I'm concerned
crude crown
meh, ain't that much and it really depends on the company.
distant crow
I just make the big voltages and the big motors go spin spin
crude crown
haha motors go vruuuumm
(sorry, quoting that "haha, money printer goes brrr" meme)
my most math intensive job was my first one
where I worked with baysean filtering quite a bit (e.g. Kalman filters, Particle filters, etc.)
nowadays... I rarely do math at all lol
distant crow
mm nice, I did have to deal with Kalman filters a bit back then, since there was a bit of control theory in controlling machines
mortal wedge
Nice
distant crow
but nothing in much detail
mortal wedge
I deal with that sort of thing
crude crown
yeah, in my case it was related to processing data from inertial sensors
it's for sure a cool field chaos
distant crow
very nice
crude crown
and I would like to continue working on that
along with other biomed related topics.
vapid jay
And are immediately discarded on first screening
@marsh wind neither
crude crown
but... I'm adapting to the job market sort of.
vapid jay
Understanding github for work is a bit more than just understanding the website and git itself, it's also about understanding common git branching schemes, and code review processes, and ideally some pros and cons of the different options
@distant crow yeah my commit history is a complete mess
crude crown
left that first job in order to try out some remote working
vapid jay
I can branch but not on the level of collaborating with other people
crude crown
and now I'm working with speech processing stuff.
vapid jay
more like commit history so I have a place to go back to in case I mess up
or I need a save point
crude crown
typically each person is focused on a single branch.
in gitflow, you have the master branch and then you have the feature branches (which are typically associated with a JIRA issue) where each dev works on those, go through PRs and merge them back to the master branch.
distant crow
I don't think you need to worry about your commit history that much
crude crown
yeah, with more experience you'll be able to do more "atomic" commits
distant crow
because:
- collaboration usually happens at the PR level. when you write a PR, and when people review it, most companies don't care too much about how many commits went into that, and people look at the branch diff only for code reviews. in the rare case, they're a stickler for keeping commits clean
- interactive rebase/squash commits. many times people only care about the commits going into dev/stage/prod branches, and you can have as many commits as you want in your feature branch. What you do here is you interactive rebase and squash your commits down to make the commit history nicer
crude crown
it's a matter of putting some time on that.
in my previous job
we did code reviews
per commit
it was totally overkill for the projects I was working on.
distant crow
so if anything, learn two things:
- how to write PRs, and this takes 10 minutes - go look at some templates and what's on open source projects
- learn how to do interactive rebase
wow, that sucks
but I assume you can still commit as much as you want locally, and squash commits before review?
crude crown
nope
distant crow
that sounds terrible
vapid jay
can you set up local env and commit as much as you want
crude crown
wait, I mean.
crude crown
well, here's what I did.
I would, for example, develop an entire feature
stash it locally
distant crow
your local git repo should be basically your play area, in theory people shouldn't care what goes on in there unless you push
crude crown
and then split it up into commits and push those
(as far as I recall, that's what I did)
distant crow
ok, I highly highly recommend in those instances, and in general, understanding how to squash commits during interactive rebase
limber rampart
With interactive rebase you can amend / fixup commits too, which sounds like a nicer alternative to what you were doing
distant crow
that feature literally exists to allow you to take your junk commits and combine them into ones that make sense and are easy to read by others
crude crown
I mean, for some of the code in the company it actually made sense to have code reviews per commit, we're talking about really scientific code
but alas, that's what you get if you try to apply the same process into all projects and all teams without considering the context.
limber rampart
Some people prefer to review by commit, some only look at the overall branch diff, but I've never considered that there'd be places where one or the other was enforced somehow
distant crow
as long as you're allowed to squash your commits, I think it's fine to review by commit
I just don't like the idea of people telling me my commits are "final"
my commits are a mess, but sometimes they have to be because otherwise I'd leave #TODO everywhere
limber rampart
I can understand not wanting to squash or fixup published commits to avoid force pushes, but forbidding local -i rebase? how can anyone even tell if they arent looking over your shoulder?
crude crown
I live and die by using stash.
vapid jay
one of the reasons the job sucked.
@crude crown wild, what kind of job was it?
crude crown
it was a regular python development gig.
vapid jay
is a tip to keep diffs small?
crude crown
yeah, local rebasing wasn't forbidden from what I remember, that would be way too much.
vapid jay
are you allowed to install whatever you need to be productive? @crude crown
crude crown
I'd say so, in my jobs so far I never had that kind of restriction.
Although I do know people working for banks where there are some restrictions.
distant crow
I can imagine a case where a company restricts what software you install for security reasons, it would suck, but I can see why
yeah
I did a job (actually a contract project) where the company didn't let me take any data or files home, which is fair enough
except, a month after I left, the company lost the computer I was using, and they called me up asking if I had backups
limber rampart
my company is fairly restrictive in that regard, we work with highly sensitive data
vapid jay
but it was more like self imposed red tape because they self enforced it
limber rampart
cannot use packages from pypi that arent internally verified
vapid jay
how sensitive? @limber rampart
but would you be allowed to install things like autohotkey or other stuff like that
limber rampart
maybe, not sure about autohotkey specifically
we have an internal software repository
from there, anything is safe to use
for other software, permission must be given
distant crow
was there a good process to request packages be verified and added to the internal repo?
distant crow
yeah, that would be annoying. were you ever tempted to just write a package yourself to avoid waiting for the verification?
vapid jay
lol, like read and paraphrase it locally?
limber rampart
yes i do end up writing some code that you'd normally probably just pull from pypi
its not a tragedy though
crude crown
okay, I'm having a second thought
on my previous job
in the case of python packages, they had to be pre approved due to licenses
distant crow
was it something like no GPL?
crude crown
in my current job now I have to take care about the licenses of Python packages or other software...
vapid jay
as in businesses are allowed to use it without consequences in paying dues right?
crude crown
yes, for example
GPL-3 for example allows to use GPL-3 licensed software (e.g. Python packages) to be used in commercial software
but this is something that you usually have to keep in mind in most companies
distant crow
I had to do an audit of licenses in our company's software once, it was not fun
vapid jay
I recall AHK being business friendly
distant crow
it involved pulling a massive list of dependencies out, and checking what license each of them had
vapid jay
yikes
crude crown
I'll have to do that until the end of this week as well, although it's only for a microservice I'm maintaining at the moment.
it should take about an hour or so to fill up the spreadsheet with the third party dependencies
distant crow
as usual with all compliance stuff, there are expensive tools that help you with this kind of thing, but... I didn't have access to those. If I do it again, I'm probably going to look for or write a github scraper to do this for me
an hour's not bad
crude crown
I've wipped up a simple Python script that crawls through a Pipfile.lock and exports a CSV with the packages info and their respective licenses
distant crow
nice, a pipenv user
vapid jay
as usual with all compliance stuff, there are expensive tools that help you with this kind of thing, but... I didn't have access to those. If I do it again, I'm probably going to look for or write a github scraper to do this for me
@distant crow if I were asked to do that
I'd probably do a scraping job too
but I think my knowledge is too limited to know how to scrape through GitHub for it
crude crown
although getting tired of that eternal locking process with pipenv
distant crow
they have an API, so probably a starting point
distant crow
well, I hope pipenv gets better - they've resumed development of it now that the maintainership got sorted
crude crown
it did? where did you see that?
crude crown
oh, you're totally right
vapid jay
how do I check which venv device I'm using?
crude crown
device?
vapid jay
or package to create virtual envs
oh it looks like I haven't done one recently
I recall there were two
crude crown
you have venv which is the default one with Python3
vapid jay
oh ok
is that supposed to show up?
requests-oauthlib 1.3.0
rsa 4.6
selenium 3.141.0
setuptools 47.3.1
six 1.15.0
soupsieve 2.0.1
toml 0.10.1
tqdm 4.47.0
typed-ast 1.4.1
uritemplate 3.0.1
urllib3 1.25.9
w3lib 1.22.0
websockets 8.1
wheel 0.34.2
win-unicode-console 0.5
youtube-dl 2020.6.16.1
no
vapid jay
oh I see
vapid jay
usage: venv [-h] [--system-site-packages] [--symlinks | --copies] [--clear] [--upgrade]
[--without-pip] [--prompt PROMPT]
ENV_DIR [ENV_DIR ...]
venv: error: the following arguments are required: ENV_DIR
yeah I'm not great with setting up venvs because I haven't come across situations where I have to control package versions
crude crown
yup, you have it
python -m venv my_venv
that's how you create one
and you should use venvs for each separate project/repo
vapid jay
haha
I just copy pasted that to see what happened
guess I should break the habit of pasting things I see without finding out what they do first
crude crown
here's a tip
never use ctrl-c ctrl-v with things from other people
for example, if you find something in SO that's relevant to you
type it by hand
most likely it will make you think about what the code is doing (which you should always understand completely)
ctrl-c ctrl-v with your own stuff is okay.
craggy elm
pipenv does look pretty interesting
i'd need to dick around with it in another project
vapid jay
most likely it will make you think about what the code is doing (which you should always understand completely)
@crude crown too real
ty for the tip
sleek field
Any recommendations on where to find commissions?
mortal wedge
Networking
I need to get more comfortable with my venvs.
I just have one for all my projects >.>
mortal wedge
I don't know how tf to use pycharm, but I eventually got it working
and I got the conda venv working that's currently the extent of my expertise/knowledge on the matter
vapid jay
and I got the conda venv working that's currently the extent of my expertise/knowledge on the matter
@mortal wedge you don't use Visual Studio Code?
mortal wedge
Haven't used it. Dev C++ for C++ and PyCharm for Python so far
dim canopy
Theres a ton of channels so not to sure where to post this. I am currently pursuing my BA in Economics along with an MBA I have a Background in Information technology specifically in network access management and security patch work all of which I did while in the Army. I have a small amount of experience with penetration testing and cyber security. All of this being said I am interested in pursing a career in data analytics and am looking for tips and advice on what I could work on to pursue this goal.
mortal wedge
Git is integrated everywhere
shadow moss
Wiz, apply for jobs when you get out, assuming MBA is from decent school, you shouldn't have trouble finding something
if you are not taking data classes in school, see if you can take one or two as elective
celest bronze
is adding a link to your github filled with lots of practice programs good for your cv or is it better for a résumé. Im still newish to python, and looking for a intro/internship/first job in the IT field
distant crow
as long as that work is in-line with your experience level. you don't want to be applying to a position that requires python experience but have hello-world python tutorials in your github that was worked on recently
I think if you have experience-appropriate practice, it's better to have the github link than to not
tawny bison
I live NJ / NYC
If I learn Python and SQL enough to make a data scraper, could I finagle my way into a data engineer internship?
distant crow
at least get to know libraries like numpy. maybe if you added some nice statistics generation and data visualization (matplotlib) to your scraper, that'll improve your chances
but also depends. internship requirements tend to be quite low, some places might just want someone who's keen, knows basic python, and able to learn
tawny bison
That's good enough for me
I live right next to the audible headquarters
They are always hiring data positions
celest bronze
as long as that work is in-line with your experience level. you don't want to be applying to a position that requires python experience but have hello-world python tutorials in your github that was worked on recently
@distant crow
if my github only has helloworld programs and i do get hired i think the problem is at their end then lol but thanks for the advice tho
distant crow
lol yeah, I suppose if it's that way round that's good for you
craggy elm
the place im at was willing to hire anyone who knew how to program in matlab & knew basic thermodynamics
needless today, im trying to get outta there lol
broken shore
at least you got what you needed on your resume before you run
craggy elm
the funny thing is that i always get harassed for using git bash instead of TortoiseGit like everyone else on the team lol
mortal wedge
For anyone reading it, I've found that internships at companies like amazon just ask you basic DSA questions
distant crow
I think amazon are quite good at telling you beforehand what they'll ask
last time I had an interview with them they told me "here's what we're going to ask"
covert scaffold
For anyone reading it, I've found that internships at companies like amazon just ask you basic DSA questions
@mortal wedge strongly depends kn the position
mortal wedge
Yeah, amazon is quite good at that, even on their interviews
There's a LOT of resources available if you're selectede for one of their coding tests or to come in, in person
I don't know. Tech companies love their DSA. I wouldn't recommend anyone go into a coding interview without it
mortal wedge
I don't think an internship is going to cover anything too complex
It's just an internship after all
gilded valley
not really sure what you mean by basic. The questions you get are pretty hard if all you've done is a couple of hours on leetcode and your uni's dsalg course. Dynamic programming is very popular
covert scaffold
missed that part, my bad
vapid jay
Do remote jobs require you to make occasional visits in person usually?
I'm an american whos immigrating to south africa, but was wondering if I could work a remote job out of the US
covert scaffold
depends, i got a remote one and haven't been in the office in 3 months
some require occasional visits for meetups and such
covert scaffold
international cooperation is probably a bit more compliated though
tawdry leaf
Seems to me that time zones would be the biggest thing. But, idk
vapid jay
its only a 6-7 hour time difference
covert scaffold
not so sure about that, itnernational taxes add up
vapid jay
If ur referring to making it to online meetings
covert scaffold
the country where you work has taxes, and then your home country
vapid jay
SA and the US dont have a tax agreement like that, if I work a us job i just pay us taxes
I've researched that part
covert scaffold
damn, not bad
vapid jay
(just to clarify im not just moving to take advantage of that, im getting married)
covert scaffold
but yea, the tricky part is finding a company that'll be up to it
vapid jay
Im thinking i might be able to get an address of some kind in the us
and can just tell them that as my address
not like it's their business
(pun intended)
opal perch
good luck with that, they'll ask for proof of address
vapid jay
i could probably put my parents address
gilded valley
smells like tax evasion. That's only available for rich people. Swiss bankers etc
craggy elm
smells likethat's tax evasion.
ftfy
shut geyser
When you dont have tax agreeemens dont you have even more chances to get double taxed
Taxes agreement are made to avoid this ?
At least withing EU
distant crow
working in SA for Europe is also quite good
though from what I've heard from acquaintances in SA, they kind of want to get out
seems like economy and politics isn't so nice down there
but I think outsourcing isn't unusual
and you know what, since Covid19, a lot of companies are a lot more open to remote work now that they've experienced it
distant crow
I assumed we were talking about South Africa, given the time difference quoted above
gilded valley
well - it had pretty much moved on to tax
distant crow
hhmm yeah
gilded valley
not calling you out, just explaining my confusion
distant crow
nah, all good
ok tax, as far as I know, you need to provide proof of tax status to any US entity paying you overseas, and that form asks you to explain which country, and which tax treaty if relevant, and what your exact status is in your resident country
the ones I know of are the W8-BEN and the W8-BEN-E, and if you ever have to fill those forms, there are actually some great YouTube video walkthroughs of filling these forms that I found out after having to fill them in
if you're in the UK. like me, not filling in these forms will cause a 30% tax withholding rate applied on the US side, and then you still have to pay UK income tax of corporation tax on the rest of that income
for UK, doing a W8-BEN-E saying you're a registered company in the UK will reduce the tax withholding on the US side to zero, and you just pay regular UK taxes
you just provide your HMRC TRN as the foreign TIN
now
if you were properly tax avoiding, what you would do is then set up an overseas entity in a tax haven that your UK (or whichever country has a tax treaty with the US), and your UK entity would outsource the work to the overseas entity. the overseas entity will charge the UK entity high fees such that the UK entity breaks even and makes no profit and therefore pays no UK tax
your tax haven entity receives 100% of the payment from the UK, and pays zero tax because tax haven
the actual work was done... wherever in the world, it doesn't really matter at this point
that's tax avoidance 101, and something to keep in mind for your career because I have to make this off-topic sentence channel-relevant
vapid jay
hi, im studying computer science in sixth form in london, i want to get some experience in a web development company and im not sure where to go to find one. if anyone has any tips for me or recomendations that would be greatly appreciated
distant crow
what kind of skillset do you have?
do you have existing web dev experience, what languages have you used?
vapid jay
im confident with python JS HTML and CSS
i havent got any work experience but im self taught and would like to progress in web development
distant crow
on the python side, which web/backend frameworks and databases/ORMs have you used?
on the JS side, have you used any modern web frameworks like React/Angular/Vue?
vapid jay
ive used sanic mostly as its easy to make async
and i havent touched on any web frameworks yet
gilded valley
Your best bet is to just google "web development company {whatever_city/town_your_at}" and reach out to them
vapid jay
thank you
distant crow
and also when are you thinking of doing that, I asked mainly because of the Covid situation and whether companies are returning to their offices
vapid jay
im also unsure about whether or not im capable of getting a job with my current experience though
gilded valley
build a decent CV, then email or, preferably, ring them
vapid jay
i would like to work part time from now as im still in sixth form
distant crow
so, I'm in London right now, and I think I got my first job doing what you're doing. Small companies may be willing to do it
my first job was a PHP dev working with a tiny language translation agency that was run out of the living room of a little old Japanese lady. At the time I just had one or two websites I'd done as portfolio, but she was willing to give me a try out
vapid jay
how did you find the job if you dont mind me asking
distant crow
I searched local jobs postings
there was a website that was specific to my area (outside London at that time) that posted jobs and events and stuff
do you know Nextdoor?
vapid jay
i havent heard of it
distant crow
that wasn't the site, but I'm on there and occasionally I do see people ask about websites
vapid jay
ill check it out, thank you i really appreciate it
distant crow
I'm not suggesting using Nextdoor specifically, but that sites like that which are used for locals might be a possible place to look for the kind of work you're looking for
Nextdoor is like a social network for local communities
vapid jay
i know this is probably annoying but is it okay if i link a couple of sites ive made so that u could see if where im at currently is even good enough to get a job
distant crow
sure
distant crow
interesting, you have a chat backend to the first one?
distant crow
now the second one. I like it, that's neat
vapid jay
the chat site may take a minute for the server to turn on btw as its being run on repl.it
thank you! its my most recent project i enjoyed alot
most js ive done so far for a single project
the project site is unfinished and is my project for alevel computer science
its probably the best example of my front end ability
distant crow
so... I'll say this: it looks like you are most likely to succeed in finding a position by demonstrating sites like your second one
vapid jay
ill keep that in mind