The advice I've heard is to include it until you have relevant work experience that overshadows it - so you include both personal projects, and the cashier experience even after you have graduated (for the first job)
#career-advice
gilded valley
vague bloom
yeah @gilded valley
white karma
Pretty sound advice Charlie
marsh wind
I told myself I will stay away from it but....
if you don't trust articles then why'd you try linking some of your own?
you did ask to show you links
vague bloom
wind hinge
Btw guys i wanted to ask how are going internships and coding world for people under 18? Is it even possible or i should chill for 1.5 years?
or jobs
similar things to that
gilded valley
random aside. But including cashier experience on a CV for new low level software positions is a very specific thing for an article to cover
white karma
Id say chill but keep your practice up @wind hinge
opal perch
nvm egyptian prince, a) never said I dont trust articles, b) applying with no relevant experience to a job is the same as applying with no relevant experience for a software dev position, c) drop it now, everyone agrees here that's its useful information except the 0 experience high school kid
gilded valley
his articles were relevant though - you're just setting the bar at some ridiculously specific level
wind hinge
but flask i snot that popular as i see
marsh wind
Chill, but keep eyes open. It's foten can be legally tedious to emply under 18 for those kinds of jobs @wind hinge
white karma
You can always freelance
marsh wind
but it depends on your local law
vapid jay
Until you have relevant professional work experience, retail proves you are able to function as a worker. Which is at least as important as technical skills.
white karma
I agree
opal perch
agreed
vague bloom
@wind hinge where are you based?
opal perch
google, intel, microsoft, facebook all agree as well^^
wind hinge
Balcan
vague bloom
I think our youngest intern was 18
wind hinge
k*
white karma
That’s really nice to know @opal perch even if the hr people would firewall me
vague bloom
Do you like to do backend or frontend stuff?
gilded valley
I know of companies here in the UK that have taken on people as young as 14 for work experience/interny type things for a few week. But it always happened because a personal connection was made
wind hinge
well i can do both
gilded valley
One example is when a 14yo kid did really well at a Hackathon, one of the sponsors offered him experience
wind hinge
but backend is more interesting
gilded valley
another example is a 16yo who made a website for his friend's dad or something or other, then got work experience at a car company IT dept from that
wind hinge
i am trying to work on both side
and to improve
i am learning currently flask
then i thought about learning less or saas
as well i am trying to exercise problem solving tasks from certain sites
vague bloom
If you wanna work for a big firm then specializing is probably the way to go (backend or frontend) :D
but for smaller firms fullstack is cool too
maybe learn some javascript framework for frontend? Like Svelte, Vue or React? :-)
and then use your python skills for making backend APIs.
in flask, fastapi or w/e.
wind hinge
oh i thought for js to learn angular or react as i saw they are mostly asked skill
gilded valley
iirc some survey showed those two as by far the biggest
vague bloom
don't think too much about what's popular now
gilded valley
and that matches my personal experience
but any framework shows enough skill that a company wouldn't care too much
vague bloom
I think Svelte will become pretty big.
in 2-3 years.
but I am not a frontend guy
in my current team we do svelte for frontend, flask and postgres for backend 
gilded valley
It's still not widely adopted, and is apparently very nice to use
never really heard of Svelte beyond as a name though
wind hinge
oh i would like to learn to work with postgres db later on, they are also wanted
vague bloom
Cool thing about svelte is that you compile your native, so your js files that the user loads in the end is very small
compared to vue/react where they have to load alot of library code too (atleast that used to be the case)
I am not a frontend guy
so I am not up to date.
React wanted to do a similiar approach
afaik
gilded valley
yeah, that's what I learned from my quick googling - that seems interesting
gilded valley
React is the only Framework I've actually written though - and it seems pretty alright
marsh wind
oh i would like to learn to work with postgres db later on, they are also wanted
@wind hinge what you really want is any SQL DB and, eventually maybe some noSQL.
after the specific sql flavor is not that important
in me
wind hinge
oh yeah but i saw a lot of people requestion mysql postgres, mongodb, and many other qwq
vague bloom
shivers a bit
marsh wind
with noSQL it can be more important as they usually don't have a one common approach
vague bloom
postgres for relational db is quite popular, and mongodb is quite popular for nosql
marsh wind
in my company we use Cassandra, which I never even knew existed 3 months ago
wind hinge
for db i am using flask-sqlalchemy to create db
gilded valley
https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#technology-most-loved-dreaded-and-wanted-databases-loved4 DyanmoDB is apparently 50% loved and 50% dreaded
vague bloom
wind hinge
and for mysql i have fear from php time qwq
vague bloom
I only wanted to learn it for AWS memes.
gilded valley
although in that survey, mongo is 56% loved - so I'm not gonna read too much into it
wind hinge
so i guess i ll go for backend
even tho backend devs needssome knowledge from frontend world
and i might try to work on my github repository
marsh wind
I think SO surveys are not bad quality wise tho
I can totally see why cassandra is 56% dreaded 😁
vague bloom
@wind hinge work on your github repo yeah :-)
gilded valley
one thing they are bad at is UX - I hate that webpage so much compared to the 2019 one
wind hinge
just gonna think of what to add in it
if anyone has idea of what to create and add on github ping me 😄
vapid jay
make crud apps
sullen osprey
I can do that
my alt acc
I have login system and registrate system as well
I can allow users to use js and html in website as well
dire imp
hire me im good
vapid jay
@wind hinge A waifu recommender
subtle trail
Hey guys, I'm trying to land my first entry level programmer/ software dev job. I work as a bank teller currently and I have quite a few finished projects on my github . I was reading todays discussion and I was wondering if you had any advice on how I should organize my resume or show off my projects?
summer roost
resume reviews are on-topic here, if you'd like to share it
subtle trail
That's awesome! I'll brush up my resume and give it a share.
vapid jay
yeah.. maybe anonymize it
frozen vigil
^ hide personal details ofc
sterile wave
nah just give it a mustache and a fake nose that'll be fine
marsh wind
maybe they dont have photo, then 'stache and fake nose would look funy lol
sonic abyss
Give every word a stereotypical British mustache and a monocle
vapid jay
Can I get a decent job without knowing a lot of math?
marsh wind
yes
vapid jay
I'd like to know what kind of jobs I can get tho
marsh wind
Web dev front/back usually requires little to no math
Q/A, devops, automation probably as well
without math you might have hard time in any data related jobs and possibly in game dev
perhaps also is things where every bit of performance might matter too
sterile wave
depends on how much math
crude crown
the majority of the jobs require little to no math
vapid jay
Hey guys I'm interviewing for a back-end engineer right now and I need to come up with a test for the position. What have your tests looked like recently? And what has the interview process been like? Anything you like/don't like? Anything you would change
vagrant bough
anyone in working in montreal ?
white karma
Sounds reasonable enough
harsh rampart
is having an official education good for data science jobs? another way of asking this is like - if you have a biology major who did self learning and knows how to do the job, and you have a comp sci degree who also knows how to do the job, are the two on equal footing for a job?
white karma
It would probably help
But as said before it probably doesn’t matter so long as your programming skills are solid
analog cypress
in my experience a degree only matters in getting your foot in the door to get the interview
once you're in the interview, only coding skill matters. just my experience
and even then the degree only matters for your first job
harsh rampart
appreciate it thanks guys
mortal wedge
I know I'm a bit late to the party, but the reason I went into CS is because I'm in the biomedical field and haven't been able to find a job because of recent non-biomedical work
Computer Science jobs didn't care about my background or how I learned to code, just that I could
marsh wind
@harsh rampart @mortal wedge for data science Job they usually care you have Master + degree
But not necessarily in CS
marsh wind
Well maybe BSc can be Ok but then it should be in a relevant field
paper cradle
Hey guys. I am looking for an advice. I'm just starting to get into programming(a bit over a year) but i don't have the luxury to quit my current job and go do internship somewhere so what will you suggest me doing?
paper cradle
I'll look for some projects then. Thanks for the input().
harsh sable
are you in an office enviroment now? Lots of excel or data entry about? learn stuff like openpyxl and pandas
you will find lots of easy entry level type projects you can apply python too
@paper cradle good luck!
paper cradle
@harsh sable Not really, i still do some office stuff but i mainly manage people and i dont have much free time in work
jaunty pendant
Back in March, when the big 'ronna hit, I was laid-off until September (school district). Since I technically have a job waiting for me, and more importantly because I have a years worth of living expenses in my emergency fund, I decided that instead of looking for temp work, I would study programming full-time (I'd already been studying since January, 2hours/day). I'm self-studying, but I'm basing it off the syllabus of the local bootcamp/recommended teachings.
I've been putting in between 60-80 hours/week for the last few months and because of that I feel that I'm making good progress. My goal is to have enough confidence in my skill-set to begin applying for jobs in September (Web development, preferably backend). So here's my question to any hiring managers, people in the industry, or to anyone more informed than myself; With the current/predicted state of the economy, and the flood of resumes/applications in the pool, would you advise that I resume work in September while I job-search/study (Which will undoubtedly affect my retention), or should I go all in and dedicate myself to job-searching/studying while I'm at my peak.
Like I said, I'm not hurting for money at the moment, so my judgment feels clouded. The conservative side of me is telling me that slow-and-steady wins the race, but based on past experiences, I also know that real results require real commitment and a having a safety-net will only weaken my resolve.
P.S
I have no problem relocating for a new job, provided that the pay is reasonable for the area and more importantly if the position will give me the experience I need to establish a strong foundation.
radiant moon
hard to answer 😐
if you resume work in September, do you sign a contract or something that forces you to keep that job for a long time?
jaunty pendant
No contract, however I work with Special-ed, so establishing that relationship takes effort. Once I have it, I don't want to leave half-way through and make them start from scratch with someone else.
radiant moon
that's effectively a contract, in that you'd feel bad if you suddenly bailed on them
bummer
jaunty pendant
Good point. Assuming I decide not to return, any idea how the hiring is looking? Don't wanna walk into a situation like those poor souls who graduated in 08.
radiant moon
I can only speak to my employer, but we're always looking for good people
mortal wedge
The amount of jobs has definitely gone down, at least in my area. The amount of interviews I was getting plummeted when the rona hit. I still managed to get a few though and I luckily landed a job that starts next month
So, it's harder but still possible
summer roost
@earnest bone no recruiting here; see the topic.
vast shoal
@earnest bone As @summer roost pointed out, we don't allow recruitment on this server.
earnest bone
vast shoal
No worries.
tawdry arch
Hey guys, I'm currently on track to becoming a data scientist, having done some projects in Python, ML, DL etc. Assuming I want to move into an MLE role in the future, what other programming languages should I also pick up? C++ or Java or something else? I probably want to pick up the most popular language after Python for the job.
dry sapphire
Hey guys, I'm currently on track to becoming a data scientist, having done some projects in Python, ML, DL etc. Assuming I want to move into an MLE role in the future, what other programming languages should I also pick up? C++ or Java or something else? I probably want to pick up the most popular language after Python for the job.
@tawdry arch that depends on where you want to work.
Python alone is very useful, but C++, Scala, Java, and SQL may all be needed
and some other things besides
outer saffron
it pretty much all depends
SQL is a good skill i would reccomend learning that it can even be used in conjunction with python
and Java etc
tawdry arch
I've already got SQL down, Scala would presumably be for Spark, which I plan to learn later on, as for C++ or Java, I'm thinking of picking one up next according to which language is most popular after Python in general. So for DS or MLE, which language combination would you often see more of?
I know different companies would prefer different languages, but in general?
jade fractal
tacit forum
@tawdry arch many companies use java for large projects, but graphics use c++
vapid jay
is anyone familiar with codility
like, they have questions you can solve but if you're able to solve all of them.. does it mean you're ready for any of their challenge questions
tawdry arch
thanks guys, this was helpful
dusky ridge
Any work from home oppotunities available for Python developer? I'm not interested in making money, will do anything if it's challenging
whole crystal
@dusky ridge you can implement an api into a full fledged website
little oyster
@dusky ridge seems like you are indian
crude crown
With regards to ML engineering and besides Python, it really depends on the remaining tech stack used in the rest of a company.
Having that said, Java/Kotlin or Go could be interesting choices.
but I'd err towards Java/Kotlin in order to have the broadest reach possible.
marsh wind
I see around (as well in my company) that Scala is rather popular after Python when it comes to ML
vapid jay
Anyone working with flask and graphql , i was wondering what would be best practice to handle CSRF protection im using vue on FE
marsh wind
@vapid jay probably #web-development is better place for this question
dusky ridge
@little oyster seems like you are biased
little oyster
ok
mint citrus
vapid jay
u can get banned for advertising that?
mint citrus
you will get told you cant advertise that
tender frost
!rule 6
inner wrenBOT
craggy elm
anyone else work with a majority of coworkers who just don't care about getting better at software development? im coming from a mechanical engineering background but i work in software dev, and i feel like im the only one who actually cares to get better at it lol
really, im just curious if this is the norm or if where i work is just an outlier
vapid jay
Yes, most people are lazy. You probably are more than average motivated because you are career switching.
shadow moss
Most people are like that in any job. Do their 8 hours, collect pay check and go home
gilded valley
There's also nothing wrong with that
craggy elm
im not career switching though. im just in a realm where software dev is necessary for what i do
gilded valley
It's not laziness, just different to your approach
craggy elm
i work more with simulations and optimization of certain mechanical systems, so it's just a given that i should know some basics and beyond
craggy elm
i also don't work more than 8 hours lol im not about to devalue myself
marsh wind
well people might be satisfied enough with their current position/pay/etc to not care to go beyond
vast shoal
@craggy elm Some people certainly are less driven than others, even factoring out work-life balance considerations.
craggy elm
yeah, i noticed that in college, but it just seems strange to me when it's at work because that's how you make a living. i thought that there would be a lot more people who want to get better at what they do at work, but that's most likely an incorrect assumption
i.e. people are just different
vast shoal
Some people are more passionate about what they do for work than others.
craggy elm
for sure
vast shoal
I think for some of my coworkers, they are not really in it because they love programming so much as it's a stable gig that pays well.
And they are gonna spend less time worrying about whether how they do things is ideal or if there are holes in their knowledge base.
craggy elm
from a pragmatic point of view, it's pretty reasonable logic
naive sentinel
guys, how difficult is it to actually do programming for a living?
like, does your brain get fried every day at work because of programming for hours, or is it more like relaxing in front of a pc and writing some fun code ?
craggy elm
depends on how much you're willing to teach yourself, honestly
vast shoal
It's not difficult if you're good at it, and your workplace doesn't suck.
It's challenging, but not so much that it's bad for my mental health.
Some days are more tiresome than others, but probably nothing out of the ordinary for jobs in general.
naive sentinel
i mean, is it more like playing a computer game, or solving difficult math problems all day ?:D
vast shoal
I wouldn't say that it's relaxing. It's still a job. But a fun job, in my opinion.
craggy elm
from what you asked in the general chat, im not sure about most software engineering jobs because im in a bit of a niche, but for my job, you absolutely need to know how to write and design code
vast shoal
It's not like either of those.
Some aspect of it is problem-solving, but there's a lot of socializing and writing and reading as well.
vast shoal
(Like, documentation, planning, teaching, learning, etc.)
One aspect I appreciate about it that I don't see much in other activities is how you can improve upon and automate your own workflows.
So you can kind of make your own job easier over time, if you're smart about it.
craggy elm
exactly
craggy elm
btw, solving difficult math problems is fun. right now in my free time, im prototyping something that i want to use in a ML application, which is essentially just applied statistics
another thing i want to work on is applying ML to a relatively simplistic fluid mechanic solver to see what the hype is about
marsh wind
imo if every time you solve some problem/reach milestone in your developlemnt you have a feeling of pride and acomplishment it helps a lot 🙂
vast shoal
Not all software development involve a lot of math.
naive sentinel
doesnt mean i wass bad at it, but it just didnt grab my interest
lavish geyser
Vast majority won’t do any math past arithmetic
vast shoal
What you end up doing is solving discrete math logic puzzles, basically.
Simple ones.
But you're only gonna get into trig and calculus and stuff like that if you're working in a more sciency field, or maybe gamedev.
craggy elm
to me, math is also boring, but using math to do something im interested in makes it more fun than it otherwise would be
naive sentinel
hmm I see
lavish geyser
Gamedev ya there’s math
craggy elm
to me, math is just a means to an end
i've 0 interest in furthering anything in math lol
lavish geyser
But the vast majority of SWE jobs are merely glueing bits of legacy code together
naive sentinel
by the way
lavish geyser
The name of the game is domain knowledge
craggy elm
it really is
naive sentinel
what do people use to program AI and VR stuff?
lavish geyser
Depends
craggy elm
AI is a machine learning topic. VR is separate i think
marsh wind
yea pure math, like porving theorems can be boring AF 🙂 but using it to solve some problem is very different
lavish geyser
VR will just be like game stuff
vast shoal
yeah, graphics and physics simulation and such
naive sentinel
is it programming?
vast shoal
Yeah
naive sentinel
with the languages like python and so on?
craggy elm
AI gets thrown around all the time where i work, but the people who throw it around usually have no idea how to implement it to make it happen lol
vast shoal
You could do that, you're probably more likely to work with something like C# or C++ for 3D applications
craggy elm
you can implement AI with any language really. the thing is that there are libraries that other people make so that you can implement it easier
afaik, python has some solid libraries to do that
vast shoal
Python is widely used in data science and ML
craggy elm
depends on what you want to do lol
vast shoal
They're all probably useful to get acquainted with.
shadow moss
most programming is business programming which is building tools to help the business
vast shoal
C++ is old, but it's still widely used.
craggy elm
yeah, i use c++ and c on occassion when matlab is garbage for what i want to do lol
vast shoal
But, mostly in certain domains.
naive sentinel
most programming is business programming which is building tools to help the business
@shadow moss what language do they use?
shadow moss
I've been at companies that have done the following types of applications, control panel for email, scheduling application that integrated with popular toolset, web site to push paperwork instead of attachments in email
by far, Java/C# have been two I've seen
shadow moss
reason those two are used is most Computer Science course see Python with whitespacing and dynamic typing to be heresy
so Java/C++/C#/C are most commonly taught
lavish geyser
C is probably the most common starting lang in uni
at least that was mine and all the programs ik of
shadow moss
around here, it's all Java
shadow moss
colleges do it for business reasons
marsh wind
while Python is easy to pick up, a static typed lang is usually best to start to learn some basics
gilded valley
C is probably the most common starting lang in uni
@lavish geyser
I don't know anyone except in ee who started with c
craggy elm
those have to be the 2 things i don't like about python, but the thing i do like is that you don't really need a build system like you do with c/c++
shadow moss
Java is by far the most popular language in enterprises
craggy elm
it's perfect for prototyping stuff
shadow moss
so students want to learn it in universities
gilded valley
Java is overwhelmingly the first lang I see taught in unis
lavish geyser
i dont know any large uni around me that doesnt start with C
naive sentinel
I heard its better to start learning python before getting into C ? is that true ?
lavish geyser
the community colleges and stuff use python
I heard its better to start learning python before getting into C ? is that true ?
not necessarily
if your self taught then yes
shadow moss
disagree
lavish geyser
but C is a great starting point in a class setting
gilded valley
Southampton, Edinburgh, and St Andrews all start with java. Those are 3 large world class unis
lavish geyser
you get a very detailed understanding of how langs work
digital fjord
if your goal is knowing C, learning straight C is better
shadow moss
dynamic typing will drive you crazy when moving into C#/Java
digital fjord
if you want to know programming, python
craggy elm
i self-taught myself C/C++ at the start, but it really depends on the person
shadow moss
and the fact that EVERYTHING must be declared as class
C# is supposed to be changing that
lavish geyser
static typing is a god send in large projects
naive sentinel
is it easier to learn other languages once you learned one already?
craggy elm
i know lol i hate matlab's dynamic typing at work
marsh wind
we did C#/C in Uni
digital fjord
yes
lavish geyser
C# is supposed to be changing that
ehhhhhhhhhhhh not exactly. you can have a free standing main coming soon if thats what ur talking about
naive sentinel
like, if i learn python now and get into C in the future
lavish geyser
going from C to python is easy
naive sentinel
is it easier/faster
shadow moss
I mean from programmer point of view
naive sentinel
?
lavish geyser
going from python to C is not as easy
basically its easier to go up in abstraction then down
shadow moss
yea, with free standing main
craggy elm
yeah, python hides a ton of stuff upfront
digital fjord
learning a second lang is easier than the first, and learning the 6th is trivial
gilded valley
Python to c is pretty easy. Going down an abstraction is also easy. I don't see why it wouldn't be
shadow moss
using System;
class Program
{
public static void Main(string[] args)
{
Console.WriteLine("Hello, world!");
}
}```that's C# hello world
lavish geyser
Python to c is pretty easy. Going down an abstraction is also easy. I don't see why it wouldn't be
its not easy if you dont have the knowledge previously
suddenly you need pointers and static types etc
gilded valley
Both of those ideas fit neatly on top of python though
lavish geyser
i mean ya lol, but its not as easy as going from C to python
c to python is making things easier
craggy elm
and dont forget the tiny detail that arrays become pointers when used as input args to functions lol
lavish geyser
python to C is making things harder
gilded valley
I don't agree. C teaches you to think on a different way
Python is much more flexible
lavish geyser
i mean its the same concepts
gilded valley
And conducive to learning new ideas
craggy elm
that took me forever to wrap my head around
lavish geyser
C just gives you more tools to do what you want
in the same way handing you a loaded gun gives you options
craggy elm
nah, i think python gives you more tools upfront. C doesn't even have OOP built into the language by default
gilded valley
I don't really follow any of what you mean
lavish geyser
im JS if u know C going to python is trivially easy, going from python to a lower level lang requires some learning
naive sentinel
python is the best for automating stuff tho, correct?
like building a bot for something
lavish geyser
generally python is good for that
naive sentinel
thats clicking websites and doing fun stuff
gilded valley
im JS if u know C going to python is trivially easy, going from python to a lower level lang requires some learning
@lavish geyser
I don't think any of that is true. I've seen multiple people struggling moving from c to python
digital fjord
OOP, different variable semantics, no implicit copies
craggy elm
now that i think about it, python does do a fair amount of "magic" from the point of view of a C developer
i can def see why that would be confusing at first
gilded valley
how...
@lavish geyser
Because c teaches you to think on terms of pointers and values. It doesnt deal with many abstractions which you need to work with in python.
digital fjord
C is a simpler language than python, having almost no stdlib, operator overloading, no methods, no lambdas, ...
programming in C is harder because it gives you fewer tools
lavish geyser
macros 👀
digital fjord
macros are mostly used to get around missing language features
lavish geyser
Because c teaches you to think on terms of pointers and values. It doesnt deal with many abstractions which you need to work with in python.
i mean those abstractions make things EASIER tho theres not really a learning curve to them if you know C
naive sentinel
how does hacking work btw
craggy elm
yeah, don't use macros if you can just use a const variable lol
lavish geyser
how does hacking work btw
generally u beat the security guard over the head with a hammer until he gives u the password
congratz u just hacked the system
naive sentinel
if there are unlimited tries for passwords, cant you just create a bot thats trying out all possible combinations ?
like super fast?
marsh wind
that is where math might come in 🙂
naive sentinel
or does that sound easier than it is
craggy elm
how fast is "super fast" exactly? lol
naive sentinel
i mean, if there are millions of combinations, it should be quite fast i guess lol
digital fjord
the issue is even super fast can be too slow
sterile wave
that's very rarely a useful approach
gilded valley
I'm not sure why you think it's easy for people to just ignore all of the stuff they learned with c. Not thinking about low level concerns is what trips people up. Going from high to low means your just add an extra layer of consideration, it's a natural step; ignoring all the other stuff you learned isn't
sterile wave
and it would only work if you have offline access to a system/password hashes because otherwise they'll block you/ratelimit your attempts
lavish geyser
umm with todays passwords algorithims you could take all the computing power in the world multiply it by 100 and give it till the heat death of the universe to guess the password and it still wouldnt do it
digital fjord
that has nothing to do with pw algo. It has all to do with how much information does the attacker have about a password
craggy elm
@gilded valley don't forget about needing to forget about memory management in python lol
i still reflexively try to manage memory sometimes
gilded valley
Yeah exactly. Thats a core thing with c that you need to ignore in python
vast shoal
Please note that asking about and providing help with illegal and ToS-breaking activities is against the rules of this server, and Discord in general.
There are other venues where you can learn about offensive cybersecurity.
naive sentinel
is UI/UX design, web development?
craggy elm
you can do UI/UX design on stuff outside of web development
like for an app you install locally
naive sentinel
do you learn about that in CS ?
craggy elm
no clue
naive sentinel
or is that a totally different topic
gilded valley
It can be learned as part of cs. Usually it isn't much of a focus for CS bachelors though
lavish geyser
thats more of a graphic comm major
naive sentinel
woah this is really overwhelming
all the different things you can do with programming and the things connected to it
i just finished learning stuff about the command line
choosing a certain field to find a job in like AI/ML/web dev etc. must be difficult i imagine as everything seems super interesting
craggy elm
for me it was that i just want to put the stuff i learned and am interested in in mechanical engineering to work, and the only way to realistically do that is to learn how to develop software lol
vast shoal
@naive sentinel I took one course on interaction design as part of my CS uni program.
naive sentinel
ah I see
vast shoal
So, it was covered, but only superficially.
There were other programs, like the interaction design program and cognitive science program that went a bit deeper.
naive sentinel
i think the work of quants sounds super interesting aswell
gilded valley
So, it was covered, but only superficially.
Its similar for my university. It gets covered in 1/2 modules, but not that deep. Ux is very much in the sphere of cs/software dev
naive sentinel
but i guess i need a phd for that
gilded valley
No. You don't
vast shoal
@naive sentinel Please refrain from posting memes and noisy images in on-topic channels.
naive sentinel
@naive sentinel Please refrain from posting memes and noisy images in on-topic channels.
@vast shoal noted
craggy elm
you can work on almost anything if you have the drive for it
some things are too big though to do alone
naive sentinel
what seperated a FAANG engineer from the others ? The problem solving skills?
gilded valley
Their ability to solve dsalg problems
naive sentinel
thanks. I guess that means, you just have to solve those leetcode problems all day everyday to get good at them, correct? Is that how you prepare for an interview?XD
gilded valley
Yeah. Pretty much
naive sentinel
nice. I love the competitiveness
I once saw a video of a guy doing competitive programming, that was super interesting aswell
marsh wind
i think the work of quants sounds super interesting aswell
@naive sentinel it is very math/stats heavy though. Plus, depending on the company of course, it can be quite high stress/resposibility field
at least according to what I gathered in the past while looking into things
shadow moss
you are dealing with large amount of money and stress of termination if anything goes wrong
marsh wind
yep, exactly what I mean
you can earn big $$ there if you are good, but if you fuck up.... 😕
marsh wind
anyway, quant and likes are not for everyone. I personally decided that I do not want that kind of environment, defo not for starting
vapid jay
I'm not really sure where to put this so I'm putting it here,
Github has this Github Sponsors thing now, which is like Patreon, but github.
I'm struggling to figure out what to do about that.
Should I have both a Patreon and a Github Sponsors page up? or should I just choose one platform. When is it better to have a patreon or a github sponsors page?
glacial ocean
@vapid jay Why not both? Some people may want to sponsor your project via github while others via patreon. it's the freedom of choice 🙂
vapid jay
Right, but that would be difficult to manage rewards right?
I want to have this system where you can pay 3$ a month to request priority on a bug fix for a specific issue
but having that spread across 2 platforms seems difficult
gloomy patio
Hey, is anyone here interested in doing some pair programming so that I can get some practice before my interview?
orchid marten
using System;
class Program
{
public static void Main(string[] args)
{
Console.WriteLine("Hello, world!");
}
}```
@shadow moss
Java really just copy pasted like no one would notice 😆
last wolf
I am a beginner and I was wondering in the job market, what exactly can Python do or is popular to do in the big tech companies?
vast shoal
Python is most widely used for web development or data science.
There are some big tech companies that use it.
Netflix for example.
Instagram, Spotify and Amazon as well, apparently.
last wolf
Thanks
gilded valley
it also gets used a lot as a scripting languagea for IT system administration stuff
sleek field
Is developer pay really that bad in the UK? I watched a video where they said it was terrible but I've always thought it was fairly reasonable
gilded valley
I'm not really sure what you mean by terrible. Relative to the US dev salaries, I'd guess you could call it terrible. Relative to other UK salaries, it's pretty good
There's some stats floating about about dev salaries between countries, and usually the US comes out ahead, but the UK is roughly in line with everywhere else
vapid jay
the US developer salaries are confusing to me. how can they consistently be so high
are they high throughout the country or just in the specific areas like san francisco\new york
what if I want to move to dallas for a developer position?
gilded valley
Pretty sure I've seen stats that it's pretty national. Although obviously dev jobs are more likely to be in and around cities
white karma
In some states they’re no where near as high as others, but the trade off is the cost of living is drastically lower than California or New York
vapid jay
so who has the best purchasing power parity
craggy elm
that's something you need to look into on a state by state basis
white karma
^
It also varies wildly in certain states depending on the capita of each county at that
Especially California
craggy elm
yeah, that's one of the reasons i moved from California lol
it's a disaster when it comes to living expenses
shadow moss
we also have lower taxes
craggy elm
not so low where you can call it a wash lol
maybe in some places in northern california - im from southern - but def not where im from in CA
gilded valley
compared to the UK - your taxes don't look to be that much lower
difficult to find a decent comparison though. At least without doing some maths myself
shadow moss
it feels lower
loud onyx
Last time I looked (around a year ago) Seattle had the highest purchasing power for software engineers.
loud onyx
People are doing coding streams now. May be a way to make some money if you're any good and have a personality.
river void
how are the earnings negative in Beijing
loud onyx
Real Earnings = Income - Taxes - Social Security - Living Costs - Rent is the formula they use
river void
Oh alright
loud onyx
idk, not familiar with China though.
river void
Can imagine all those tencent devs
loud onyx
I suppose it's also possible that living expenses in an area recently exploded and wages did not increase to compensate. That could explain a short term negative value but I don't think any software peeps would live there if it was consistently like that.
glossy pecan
Thats a weird calculation
They seem to have based it on Glassdoor averages which are really misleading anyway
gilded valley
Yeah. Those numbers don't even come close to making sense
steel granite
hello im 24 and just starting out python , i completed my graduation in 2017 and post graduation in 2019 in history , but is there any hope for me in python in this age
at this age**
like to get any job just with python knowledge
marsh wind
24? plenty of hope and opportunities
can be easier/harder depeding on your degree
but 24 is young, don't worry 🙂 @steel granite
vast shoal
@steel granite You will likely need to build a portfolio proving your practical ability before you have any hope of getting hired.
mint citrus
just make stuff
and dont share like tutorials you did. make something original or not original but in a different way
vapid jay
Any tips on Django interviews? This is a first for me
iron junco
Any tips on Django interviews? This is a first for me
@vapid jay Ask what version they are using 😛
vapid jay
That's a good one @iron junco . All the courses I have seen use Django 2.x
Meanwhile I have installed 3.1
iron junco
@vapid jay Maybe get used to using a db and getting the data from it. Not Django but I have an interview test with .net and laravel and had to get data from the db and show in a view.
iron junco
I went for a test for a junior position and it was just a basic programming test
honest mica
terse idol
Hey everyone. I'm a 20 year old python dev looking for some opprotunities to learn and work on a project. Does anyone have advice for getting your foot in the door?
shadow moss
build up a portfolio and apply to jobs
depending on your location, python may be high demand or really low demand
terse idol
I'm in the austin rn but I'm going to college in houston. The tech industry seems pretty high demand
shadow moss
So US, I'd recommend another language as well
terse idol
I've been trying to get into Lua, and Java as well. I worry my skills arent quite up to par yet though. I'm not exactly sure how much I have go in knowing vs how much I can learn on the job
shadow moss
Java is good
most US companies don't hire python only developers, most jobs tend to use Python as glue and it's not hard to take someone who knows Java/C#/C++/Rust and let them learn Python
terse idol
awesome, I guess all those CS (Java) classes from highschool wont go to waste 😁
slow nexus
I'm currently doing my MEng on Data Science. Last night before going to bed I imagined creating a webpage which served as a CV for future employers and included all my projects under a portfolio tab split into categories: Machine Learning; Time Series Analysis; Dashboard/Info Viz etc.
Obviously there is Kaggle.com where you create a profile and have notebooks for each project and potential employers can access it and access your capabilities as a Data Scientist. Or there's Github as well.
What are your opinions on the matter?
little oyster
@slow nexus agree with you
naive sentinel
why do people get CS degrees if they would only have to be able to use programming language A,B&C perfectly to get a job?
do employers not invite you to interviews if your CV doesnt include a degree or smth ?
pulsar drum
Not necessarily
They prefer it though. I've read many times that if they had two candidates that looked otherwise similar, they would prefer the one with the degree.
Some people prefer going to school anyway cause it gives them motivation to learn i.e. they aren't great self learners
naive sentinel
but if they already learned coding?xD
pulsar drum
Then everything else I said still applies
naive sentinel
i mean, for example jobs at FAANG, are they normally only given to people with degrees ?
pulsar drum
But if you have a good portfolio or experience then you can get a job anyway
It depends on the position, some are more competitive with people that do have degrees
naive sentinel
i dont really get why people would work their butt off to get into MIT or any Ivy league school if they wouldnt need the degree 😄
pulsar drum
To make themselves better candidates. It's not like school wouldn't teach you anything, especially if you go for a graduate degree
In fact, I was just reading a discussion about this the other day https://www.reddit.com/r/learnprogramming/comments/hel0aj/is_it_possible_to_get_a_machine_learning_job/
naive sentinel
I see! I am just trying to understand how important a degree or your grades/the type of university is 😄
pulsar drum
Your portfolio and work experience matter more but having a prestigious degree can certainly give you an edge over other candidates
People do get hired without degrees, so it's not required.
naive sentinel
I wonder if you can call yourself a software ENGINEER if you dont have a degree
pulsar drum
It depends on the position, like I said. You need to consider who you are competing with. If there are many people with phds applying to a position and you don't have a degree, you probably have pretty low chances
Unless you somehow have a lot of experience already
naive sentinel
I see
do you know if they care about the type of degree ? like, would they prefer CS over finance for example?
pulsar drum
I think that just depends on the position, but any degree is better than none, especially if it's a STEM field
I've heard of a good amount of people with mathematics and electrical engineering degrees that have positions relating to CS
In fact, I've seen a lot of job posts that list other degrees in addition to CS
shadow moss
Armin, depends the company as well and hiring manager
sometimes hiring managers will prefer candidates with non computer science degrees to increase diversity
marsh wind
yeah, for what it worth, having degree in releted fields help. but not having it won't be an immediate no
overall it seems that Master/PhDs in STEM (non CS) fields can be quite on par with pure CS ones
obsidian acorn
@naive sentinel some companies care very much, (to be more specific, hiring managers) about the degree. if you are from Oversees, it matters a lot more as the type of degree you have can be tied to your visas. So, for those reasons, you can be rejected right of the bat for not having a science/related degree.
With that said, I have a degree in Linguistics, and French, (both arts), and I am a Software Engineer Manager, so, in most cases, if you can show your skills, it does not matter
I have interviewed many people for different engineering, particularly entry positions, and I don't care for the degrees much, so long as the person can demonstrate their code, and that they can think to solve problems
naive sentinel
wait so it matters if your degree is called Bachelor of science or bachelor of arts when it comes to geting a visa?
and thanks!!
marsh wind
but thats us thing I guess
shadow moss
US isn’t currently granting work visas, mostly
trail dirge
If I wanna hire a python programmer, like I'd pay by script. How can I find such person. And how much does it'll cost me? Thanks
gilded valley
Fiverr or Upwork. Cost depends on a lot of factors
trail dirge
@gilded valley I'm not sure what you're referring to. I have multiple projects that need to deal with files in a certain way, mainly biology related work. I'll tell the person what i need as an output from those files.
jaunty current
Ok, I am just curious, I might learn Java for college credit but is that really the best to learn, maybe c++, c, c#, or python would be better, I really don't know.
Can someone give me a suggestion for the most versatile one for both computer software and robotics.
hollow vortex
python would be the most versatile @jaunty current
jaunty current
What about professional?
Like, usually I hear python is slow and stuff and that c/c++ is better
Also, what is Java really good for
pulsar drum
Good for securing a job working on messy old enterprise codebases :^)
tidal socket
I can’t think of a single thing I would want to use java for tbh - maybe programming SIM cards since they run java?
hollow vortex
if you want to work in the enterprise you'll more than likely need to get acquainted with it
glacial lark
Like, usually I hear python is slow and stuff and that c/c++ is better
@jaunty current Even I had the same question. But as I found out, for CP if you consider python is slow, it is also given about double the time limit and memory space. So it might be slow, but it is most comprehensible and easy to use. Also the huge collection of open source packages make it one of the best languages out there. You can do anything and even things that other languages can't or will have a tough time doing.
tidal socket
With the possible exception of asyncio for some languages, I wouldn’t say there’s anything you can do in python that you can’t do in others - but the ubiquitousness of python packages makes getting started very easy
marsh wind
Like, usually I hear python is slow and stuff and that c/c++ is bettese
@jaunty current true, but that matters either when you need to do CPU heavy computations in big volumes or if you need utra low latencies
for many, many projects the actual performance might not be crucial, while the time it takes to write and test the code can be actual $$$
and python can beat many in terms of development speed
inner wrenBOT
marsh wind
<@&267629731250176001>
velvet kite
!warn 703936973337002025 let's not use this kind of language here.
inner wrenBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @vapid jay.
velvet kite
what seems to be the problem?
marsh wind
a troll it would seem
velvet kite
!ban 703936973337002025 Has said nothing productive since they joined the server except spout vulgar nonsense, goodbye.
inner wrenBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @crude marlin permanently.
burnt lion
@azure thorn if you want to be good enough to be employable probably at least a coulpe years
brave sorrel
Im new to coding so would you know a best way to get started in python?
gilded valley
!resources This isn't the right channel to ask. But !resources has lots of useful links. Automate the Boring Stuff is a solid read I guess. If you prefer videos, there's a few different options on there
inner wrenBOT
jaunty pendant
@brave sorrel Everyone's got an opinion, but I HIGHLY recommend the book "Python Crash Course". It'll walk you through everything from installing python all the way to building a web-app. Great book to establish a solid foundation in not only python but programming in general.
eternal marsh
!resources
inner wrenBOT
unkempt ferry
Does anyone have experience with Placement.com? or used an ISA for anything else (like lambda school?) I'd love to hear if you have used an ISA are you glad, or do you regret it?
And same with Placement.
pls ping me btw
night pecan
Does anyone offer some high school internship about data science or software engineering?
blissful ibex
Anyone know how to make money programming as a teen? I already registered on Fiverr, but what else is there?
hollow vortex
upwork, guru.com.. codementor.io
lapis wind
upwork is really quite bad for work tbh
hollow vortex
better than fiverr tbh
shadow moss
It’s all bad
rare sand
we've recruited a few absolutely fantastic developers via upwork who ended up working with us full-time for years. we'd never in a billion years recruit from Fiverr though.
highly anecdotal, but hey, it's something.
tidal socket
is upwork not for larger scale things though? i thought fiverr was more if i needed help writing a cmake file, or making my python package installable through pip, help with something one can google but don't really want to spend time on
spiral saddle
I’m working on getting all of the certifications from Python Institute and would therefore be a certified expert in python. What remote jobs are there for someone at that level? Additionally I have a computer science bachelors degree. Any additional information would be super helpful as I am planning out my future plans
woeful spruce
I'm not so sure how easy it is to get a remote job without much work experience
it is about building trust
spiral saddle
Do you think building a portfolio would help?
I’ve been working on one and need suggestions of what would be projects that stand out
limber lark
Hey, Guys, Hope you all well ,I wanna ask ,which certification to get for a data analyst ? I'm looking at Microsoft certifications they all retiring soon ,Is there any other cert you can recommend ? Thanks .
woeful spruce
portfolio always helps
sweet smelt
hello, i am a beginner with some basic knowledge of python willing to take on some more experienced's smaller python tasks for free. i'll ask questions along the way but i have the time and effort to do your small tasks
celest bronze
What is a good way to practice recursion and is it even worth it to know how or when to use it at every opportunity? career wise
digital fjord
another way is to learn scheme
limber rampart
recursion is definitely good to understand even if it isn't being commonly used in python
traversing deep hierarchical structures such as trees is indeed an appropriate use case, but for the purposes of learning, you can e.g. recursively traverse a list in search of a value, or even to sum the values
vast shoal
@sweet smelt I think generally speaking, you can't really provide much value as a beginner even if you work for free. It would be more work to explain to you what to do and how and to check your work to make sure it's up to snuff than to just do it myself. So in practice (even though you may not realize it), what you're asking for is free tutoring. I saw you saying in another channel you don't know how to move up from beginner to intermediate. You said you've read Automate the Boring Stuff and you're somewhat familiar with the basics, so I think a good next step would be to choose a project that's outside your current comfort zone and works towards implementing it, learning what you need along the way. If you get stuck or need project ideas, you can just ask here in this server for guidance.
vivid sparrow
can you self teach to mid level? Or do you stay at junior level forever until you find work?
digital fjord
getting experience in devops and working on a large codebase is pretty difficult, but open source projects can be used to learn that. But well, being a major contributor to an open source project is pretty much job in itself
vivid sparrow
Thanks lakmatiol. Is there many open source written in python, or html/css?
digital fjord
there is quite a bit of python stuff out there, including this servers projects, various frameworks (django, flask, discord.py, ...).
gilded valley
Pretty much anything that has HTML/CSS has JavaScript as well
vivid sparrow
I feel like, those type of projects, I wouldn't be good enough to make any contribution to. Thanks for suggestions though.
I'll have a look around github.
I guess if i learned the whole codebase, I'd be able to contribute, unless it was finished and perfect..
gilded valley
The nature of software means that practically nothing is finished and perfect
limber rampart
I feel like, those type of projects, I wouldn't be good enough to make any contribution to
that's not true, it depends on the project of course, but plenty (and perhaps majority) of open source projects will welcome contributions that don't require profound knowledge of the codebase
gilded valley
One thing some large open source projects do is have the core devs leave a few easier issues open to give newcomers a hook into contributing
limber rampart
yeah, it's often very welcoming
your contribution will most likely be reviewed by a more experienced developer, so you will get feedback and learning opportunity in return for your work
it's an excellent environment for self improvement
vivid sparrow
Ok, thanks. I'll try. I need to get to mid level.
I wonder if I'll know once I'm a mid level dev.
limber rampart
I think mid level begins when you start to understand how little you actually know lol
at least that's been a recurring theme for me over the past few years
vivid sparrow
hm. I've been that way for a while. I'm making a facebook clone, and everytime I learn one thing, there is another few things to learn, web dev seems endless.
but maybe there is a next level of unknowing I've yet to reach ^^
gilded valley
web dev is pretty endless. At this point, the majority of enterprise development can probably be considered web dev one way or another
vivid sparrow
Ok.
marsh wind
middle level is a pretty vague thing imo. You can me middle or even real good at certain things and complete newbie in others. Other things that, imo, is a charaterisical trait that you are middle (or at least quite above junior) is the ability to pick up new things rather fast and independently
digital fjord
there is a reason most large projects have different people working on different things. Even network vs backend can be a large difference
pretty much every field of CS has enough knowledge to specialize in
vivid sparrow
I see. Thanks for info all. 🙂
spice musk
For a CS graduate how much do you expect them to know about algorithms and data structures. Do you expect them to code them from scratch with access to no resources? Or is the understanding of how they work enough?
lapis wind
well surely that depends on what "algorithms and data structures" you're talking about
dry sapphire
I would expect a CS graduate to be able to code from scratch basic data structures like linked lists, stacks, queues, simple trees, etc.
as well as discuss the time complexity of various operations on them (for given implementations)
and their usecases
spice musk
well surely that depends on what "algorithms and data structures" you're talking about
@lapis wind I mean things like sorting algorithms, Tree traversal algorithms, shortest path algorithms etc.
lapis wind
hmm on that bases then probably yes
tho i wouldnt necessarily say with no access to resources
not so much in terms of looking up the the basics of the algorithms but in terms but the methods they could use ig
naive sentinel
if a job profile asks for, for example: java, html, C++, does that mean, that you have to know literally EVERYTHING about those 3 languages ?
like even commands that are probably pretty much never used ?
vast shoal
No, I wouldn't say that they expect you to know literally everything, but they probably generally expect you to be comfortable working with those languages, and unless you're fresh out of school, ideally somewhat experienced with some of the most common frameworks/libraries for that language. And they expect you to be able to pick up whatever you don't know very quickly as needed.
lucid sapphire
Unsure if this belongs here but I think I need advice
Joined a bank as tech analyst outta college
Been here 9 months, turns out the role is more finance less code
Turns out, M the first Python stack employee there and everyone else just knows VBA, enough to build macros
How does one even go about switching jobs in between?
broken shore
you've probably gained a lot skills and experience, just not specifically as a python dev
what would you say have been your general job responsibilities?
vapid jay
question guys, does applying to college with quite a bit of knowledge in coding help???
What do you mean by help ?
broken shore
@vapid jay universities don't look at your coding experience when considering your application as they are looking for students not programmers. However, if you're applying for a CS degree, discussing your passion and experience in programming in your application essay would probably be useful.
are you applying for undergrad at a 4 year university or going for a 2 year college?
vapid jay
What's a good job to get with a bachelor in math plus computer science
And are there any specific topics within computer science that would increase my job chances later down the line?
I can choose different specialisations, but I'm not quite sure on what to pick
All the topics are really interesting
Can't take them all though
muted lotus
Data science is good if you like working with, well, data and statistics
You said you had a bachelor in math, so that might be a good fit
Machine Learning/AI is also good for mathematically-inclined people
vapid jay
I'm working on it 😅
muted lotus
I get it, it's rough starting out
muted lotus
The good thing is you've got time to decide and choose what you want to go into
And you can experiment and see what areas of computer science you like and don't like
crude crown
increase job chances? choose specialisations that aren't flooded with people
which is to say, ML/AI is a bad move for that IMO.
have a look at less "sexier" specialisations.
gilded valley
IME Data Science isn't really all that flooded. Consistently, the people applying for positions are maths, physics, or engineering students/grads who can't really apply their skills. If you have a CS degree or software dev skills, and a small portfolio, data science is a pretty good specialisation
crude crown
IME data science is flooded.
just consider the ratio of available jobs and applicants
gilded valley
That ratio is about the same for most software positions
crude crown
sorry, but I don't really agree
the ratio is wayyy better for more run of the mill software positions.
gilded valley
Well- ironically this is something that we can't really resolve without the data to back it up
crude crown
true, I was thinking of that lol
gilded valley
looking around, all I can find is anecdotal stuff. One thing I've definitely seen to be true is that there's more of a market for Masters/PHDs than BScs
crude crown
but what I'm saying is reported by a lot of people elsewhere too.
gilded valley
looking around, I can't find anything beyond anecdotal
crude crown
I'll grant you that, haven't seen a real dataset yet about this.
then again, most likely this type of data is off limits to peons like me
gilded valley
For the original question, though. It's not too difficult to enter a range of positions. Data science is an option, even if the market is flooded, you have the skills required to get a CV going and apply. Software dev without specialising straight away is another option, assuming you can code - most companies don't care about your degree, as long as you have one
crude crown
besides that aspect, the ROI in regular software development is better compared to data science IMO.
but yeah, let's return to the original question.
I'm not in that situation, but from what I read entry-level positions are competitive nowadays, independently of the specialisation your partake on.
gilded valley
I'm pretty close to that. From what I hear, there's lots and lots of applicants, the majority of them chaff (that here = low level positions)
crude crown
and from what I see, there's a lot of self-promotion going on, either through crappy linkedin posts, crappy medium articles and github activity in order for the applicants to differentiate themselves.
It wasn't like this 5 years ago for sure.
I've seen this type of content being ramped up starting from the end of 2017.
gilded valley
Looking at Linkedin just makes me sad - full of cringey advice posts from people who don't really have all that much business giving advice
crude crown
oh man, tell me about it...
I've had an account there for almost 10 years now
and it was generally tolerable
but starting from... 2017 or so
broken shore
@vapid jay 100% sounds like the background for a Data Scientist
crude crown
a deluge of crap just swept over it.
with a lot of corporate cringe crap.
and delusional doublespeak.
for example
just a bit ago I saw a post from a person that works in ML which is "influential" in my country stating that there's not nearly enough STEM graduates in the country... which everyone knows is a load of bullshit.
broken shore
yeah, I like LinkedIn a lot, but there is a lot of corporate cringe
crude crown
It really grinds my gears when I read patently false shit like that.
broken shore
my background is Organizational Psychology, so you have a lot of cancerous HR shit
got some great people analytics and scientific work though
gilded valley
My LI feed is maybe 95% of weird corporate speak cringe stuff, and 5% people just sharing actually interesting things or things that they made (just had a quick scroll through, it's probably more extreme than that, like 98/2)
crude crown
I can't honestly recall the last time I actually saw minimally interesting stuff in LI.
the goddamn feed is always showing corporate cringe stuff.
I wish there was an anti LI like network.
either way, sorry for the rant. getting a bit off topic here.
broken shore
I don't think it's that big of a deal, people got to vent
Honestly for me, seeing people do really interesting data work from my field on LI is what makes me want to learn python and data science
crude crown
that's cool
considering your background, maybe you could find a synergy between both?
broken shore
the corporate cringe mostly just pushes me away from the HR side of my field
crude crown
that is, between org psych and programming.
corporate cringe is everywhere man, there's no escaping it.
unless you work in something that's completely offline
broken shore
god no
crude crown
but I do tend to see that
broken shore
lets just get rid of corporations, that will fix it
broken shore
the US is a dystopian caproate oligarchy at this point, so not surprised
alright, now I'm pulling this channel even more off topic
crude crown
haha, no biggie.
the worst of both worlds is
working for a company with US culture but with european wages.
ask me how I know that
broken shore
ooof, do tell
crude crown
because I work for one : D
that's the joke
and it's with southern european wages, not even western european ones.
broken shore
yeah, I'm in Montreal working at a behavioral science think tank, so not the best wages in the country, but a beautiful place
crude crown
and I get to be WFH forever if I want to, so it ain't all crap.
crude crown
yeah, but I'll need to jump elsewhere soon-ish.
but again, COVID makes things difficult.
broken shore
yeah...it's pretty shit with that
crude crown
either way, you're mentioning about your current job
I would really try to look into things that you can automate
with Python in particular.
broken shore
well of course
nothing I can think of for that at the moment, the kind of work we do isn't really consistent as it's a lot of consulting
crude crown
that's how some people start being programmers
broken shore
probably for us it would be more useful doing some data analysis work with python
broken shore
yeah, R is used more often, but I'm not the biggest fan
I want to be more versatile
crude crown
I'm sure you have things that you can automate, you're just not aware what. This is actually the hardest thing on this.
in /r/Python there are usually threads about what things people automated in their jobs
there are some good ideas on those, I know I've fetched some here and there.
broken shore
oh yeah definitely makes sense, I'm sure once I can I'll be able to do a lot
our managing director is a computational neuroscientist, so at least anything I want to try he'll endorse
we are probably going to be setting up some Bayesian probability program to do our A/B testing in the future, so definitely will be fun.
crude crown
that's awesome to know, it's always good to have some a priori buy-in by people at the top.
vapid jay
i went back to school to finish my degree after working for a few years and i hope ot apply to other companies after i graduate in a few months
@lavish geyser what were you studying originally?
lavish geyser
jesus i said that message 2 weeks ago lol
vapid jay
@rustic charm That's such a coincidence that you say that, I actually left medical school two years ago and now considering a career as a software engineer because I enjoy coding so far. I'm just wondering if its difficult to break into the industry
@hard pond were you at a us MD school?
vapid jay
that's wild
how did you show them that you had the experience for it before you were even done?
I think I remember you saying you were good at some flavor of C
lavish geyser
i want to move to working at FAANG/silicon valley companies
need a degree for that 🤷♂️
or rather it makes it much easier
vapid jay
ah gotcha
how many years total would that be?
I'm considering getting a degree in it
but I feel as though I'm not ready for it
lavish geyser
i mean graduating in 8 semesters
the major isnt hard imo
def one of the easiest stems, kinda worthless tbh
but you need that paper that says you did it
vapid jay
does that include GEs?
or can you push it along if you took GE classes at a lower level college before?
lavish geyser
np man 😁
broken shore
This is such a kind Discord, it's great
jaunty current
Ngl, I believe it's probably because people arnt talking about video games and stuff but rather about learning and helping.
That's part of the reason I like to learn over gaming lol, so much nicer groups of people.
vapid jay
This is such a kind Discord, it's great
@broken shore yeah
That's part of the reason I like to learn over gaming lol, so much nicer groups of people.
@jaunty current that's true tbh
solar tangle
!resources
inner wrenBOT
crude crown
well, it's a matter of demographics probably too. Gaming servers for sure skew towards kids... which has the expected consequences.
mystic abyss
How do I write a resume?
gilded valley
what country, and where in life are you? High school, college, currently working in retail and want to move?
keen pond
yeah
gilded valley
@mystic abyss
keen pond
write things about you, I guess
broken shore
yeah, there is a lot there, definitely a loaded question
shadow moss
Country matters too
for example, in United States, Pictures on Resume are never acceptable outside acting/modeling/like
lavish geyser
many companies will throw away your resume immedialy if theres a picture out of policy
to prevent bias
broken shore
yup, otherwise you can get in trouble with the EEOC
radiant moon
but doesn't that demonstrate bias against people unfamiliar with American culture?
that question was 85% snark, so feel free to ignore
shadow moss
Sure, but if they don't know American culture, they likely want a visa and we are not dealing with that
and culture isn't protected status. National Origin is but culture != origin
broken shore
he was making a joke
jaunty mist
Does anyone have work experience as a software engineer in any company in us or uk?in this discord server?
gilded valley
yes
jaunty mist
Do cgpa matters for matters for any company in us and UK?
jaunty mist
Oh ok
radiant moon
in the US, where I work, maybe for an intern, but not for anyone else
gilded valley
However, for junior positions, big corps will ask for a 2:2, 2:1, or first for a lot of positions
and those reflect grade
practically all corps ask for at least a 2:2 or above (that's the same as 50+% in your degree)
most ask for a 2:1 or above (60%)
for grad positions that is
jaunty mist
Sry but what is 2:2?
gilded valley
after you have experience, no one cares
that's the same as 50+% in your degree
2:2 = 50%-60%
2:1 = 60%-70%
First = 70+%
jaunty mist
Is this applicable for any people or just for UK people ? I mean I heard people pay less for adians
Asians*
gilded valley
Assuming you're going for grad positions, the company will just look at your grades/transcript in perspective I think. I know the corp I worked for hires quite a few Indians both into the UK and into India
As for getting employed into the US - I believe that's much harder than the UK, and you need a masters or PHD
marsh wind
Afaik for swe you don't really need phd even for us
Even masters really not 100%. Unless it's some visa thing
jaunty mist
Ok
gilded valley
My understanding is that companies aren't willing to visa sponsor you unless you have some qualifications to stand out
gilded valley
or just work in India or a country besides the US
jaunty mist
Why r u more specific like India?
marsh wind
Afaik India is main source of workflow for h1b us visa
jaunty mist
Ok what is the value of an batchchelor degree in computer science and engineering in USA
marsh wind
If degree is from non US it is likely to be low unless you have more than just degree
jaunty mist
Sry but what should I need more than a degree ? Work experience?projects?or any other?
shadow moss
Also, Visas are currently suspended for US
but yes, H-1B petitions do better with Masters despite it's not being required for most positions
wheat oxide
@jaunty mist It varies of course, but often a degree and relevant skill set just gets you considered. If you're considered, they may review the projects you provide. That may then get you an interview.
burnt tiger
@mint citrus @jaunty mist For most decent software development jobs in the US, you need a bachelor's degree (CS or CS-related) and a good amount of relevant practical experience. This can include open source contributions, internships, personal projects (preferably in a location that's visible to potential employers), etc.
If you only get a bachelor's degree and have nothing else to prove that you have some amount of real-world experience, it's going to be a lot harder to find a job after graduation. There's a very real issue with CS graduates that don't have much in the way of practical programming skills, especially if they just did the minimum amount of work required to get the degree.
AFAIK, that applies on an international level as well, but it's definitely the case in the US.
modest ocean
@jaunty mist CGPA majorly works where there are lots of applicants or unemployment is very high. Employed as the first step of reducing applicants
gilded valley
Bachelors should be fine tho right?
@mint citrus
Even with experience, h1-bs are very hard to get
There's only 65,000 available per year. And lots of those are used by companies trying to get cheap, high quality labour
shadow moss
H-1B is 130k yearly
gilded valley
ah - google lied to me
shadow moss
for those with authorization to work in United States, Bachelor is plenty to get your first programming job. H-1B, masters help because in theory H-1B visa is supposed to be used for those with rare skills that's hard to fill domestically. In most cases, it's used as cheap replacement for American Workers
Charlie, it used to be 65k, it was moved to 130k at some point
marsh wind
well now it is suspended and no one knows what will happen to it later..
gilded valley
h1-b system works in literally no ones favour
even though the current administration is pretty anti-immigration, I could see them actually replacing it with something that's better
jaunty mist
What about internship? Why companies are not interested in giving internship to guys who score less??
little oyster
same question@jaunty mist
marsh wind
companies, naturally want the best candidates for anything. If your marks are not so great than you should try to stand out in a different way
project, open-source contributions
networking + by-passing convetional application methods
gilded valley
just make sure you have a good CV, and then apply to dozens of places
marsh wind
that too 🙂
little oyster
what is the minimum requirement for ML engineer ?
marsh wind
it's usually tailored to specific position. Also depends on country. But usually it would be Master degree in a related area
gilded valley
it depends on the company and position at hand.
little oyster
I'm fresher and i think it would be hard to find in these field isn't IT?
gilded valley
does fresher mean recently graduated?
little oyster
Yes
marsh wind
I'm fresher and i think it would be hard to find in these field isn't IT?
@little oyster depends. On country, degree, school where you got degree, projects, skills....
But first job is rarely easy unless you have done really good in internships
little oyster
i live in a state where it is very hard to find job in ML and all ...easy for web dev and android dev
should i change my domain ?
sour tartan
if by legit, you mean, is this really Google? Yes.
fossil spire
awesome!
vapid jay
lol
sterile wave
Nice
opal beacon
spring lark
Hello, I've composed an article after my preparation for a system design interview. While preparing I had to search for the best resources online and had to figure out which concepts are important and suffice for the interview. After the hard way of exploring and learning I came up with this article. I have consolidated all resources at one place and I wish it will be of help to all my fellow engineers.
Check out the article: https://towardsdatascience.com/the-complete-guide-to-the-system-design-interview-ba118f48bdfc
sterile wave
how much python do you know
oblique stratus
I've made a few hundred bucks writing small scripts/utilities for people. It's difficult to find jobs like that though.
mystic abyss
So I made a card that I may want to put in my resume. I did everything, but a animation that occurs when you “open”/“close” the card. Should I put a disclaimer or just not put it there?
hollow vortex
how do you print an animation? 
white karma
Page by page
opaque bloom
flip deck
little atlas
What is your experience/review/impression of google foobar challenge?
zinc fractal
I've made a few hundred bucks writing small scripts/utilities for people. It's difficult to find jobs like that though.
@oblique stratus ive done something similar, but as youve said its very hard to find jobs like that.
how much python do you know
@sterile wave im intermediate i'd say. yesterday i made a flask url shortener in an hour or so
viral ridge
so u followed a tut lel?
zinc fractal
so u followed a tut lel?
@viral ridge nope, 0 tutorials just plain old knowledge
i dont do tutorials
vast shoal
@vapid jay This is a Python server. Do you want to learn Python?
What profile?
Well, the first steps for learning Python would be becoming familiar with the syntax. Since you already have some experience, you can probably skim through it relatively quickly. After that, I would suggest working on your own projects. We have a list of project suggestions pinned in #python-discussion. Resources for learning the basics can be found here:
!resources
inner wrenBOT
vast shoal
We have lots of topical channels for different aspects of software development here, so I guess you can spend time helping and taking part in discussions here, as a complement to your studies.
But again, we have a heavy Python bias here.
Which may or may not be interesting to you.
Work on creating a portfolio on Github. It'll be educational and you can use it as a credential when applying for jobs later.
vapid jay
Is it common for interviewers to say the interview went very well and then turning you down in a couple of days?
Happened twice for me
vast shoal
They might have a lot of applicants, and even if you did well, you didn't do as well as someone else.
real lake
i want coding as my carrer....im studying in class 8.....so after taking computer science, what should i do?
vast shoal
A common way is to go to university and get a bachelor's or a masters in computer science or software engineering.
broken shore
@vapid jay unfortunately yes, the hiring process tends to be a black box where you have no idea how you stand with other candidates or what HRs goals are
shadow moss
even if interview went poorly @vapid jay we will say "This went well, we will follow up with you"
it went well for us doing interview, it told us "No way"
people don't want to give negative feedback, don't know how the person will react and there is always possibility of lawsuit for bias reasons
speaking as American
vapid jay
@shadow moss Yeah I think that's it
shadow moss
Take advantage of any interview classes
but since we are on topic of interviews, I can give some tips. From East Coast American point of view
- Dress up and clean up.
- If it's a remote interview, please still do 1), also make sure your camera/headset is working. If remote software isn't something you normally use, for example Microsoft Teams, you can generally join a lobby and double check your connection/audio/video setup
- One or two pages in resume, if you did longer then that and somehow didn't get your resume shredded (I would), work on key points
- Don't go negative if at all possible.
- One of better ways to demonstrate familiarity with languages is to talk about things that annoy you. Watch out for 4) but you can be like "I was working with Flask but method of doing X can frustrate you at time" or "DJango is great but this feature is really awkward to implement at first"
wary summit
Hey there, if someone is looking for a Python developer job in Switzerland, check:
https://swissdevjobs.ch/jobs/Python/All
There is also a cool "how to find a job in Switzerland" guide:
https://swissdevjobs.ch/blog/how-to-find-job-as-software-developer-in-switzerland-complete-guide
shadow moss
We don't allow recruitment
wary summit
I am not a recruiter, I made this website. Just wanted to share, as I believe it brings decent value (especially on this channel). Won't post any specific offers of course.
shadow moss
meh, one of mods can sort it
obsidian acorn
sounds good @wary summit next time, clear it with a mod first, but thanks for the share
wary summit
I will probably add the switch for Euro/CHF in the future. Thanks!
vapid jay
cool thx @wary summit I am from Switzerland. I am looking for a career change from science to some python/datascience job. can I find some internship or junior positions on the site ?
wary summit
@vapid jay you can check the filters tab. You can sort the jobs based on required experience. 😉
weary forge
@crude valley Personal recommendation is just to make projects