I think that’s how we all feel dude
#career-advice
white karma
open stag
I wonder if I could get a job in game dev
meager nymph
(even python)
open stag
Is that a large field that's accepting for beginners?
meager nymph
no, not at all. (Unfortunaetly)
crude crown
game dev is a really ruthless industry
meager nymph
game dev is a field that a LOT of people want to get into, and there's limited demand.
Ofcourse, you can still do it.
white karma
Ironically it’s not the industry for people who want to make video games
meager nymph
It's just going to be a worse industry than every other programming field.
white karma
Unless you go indie
crude crown
hmmm, I think there's way more people wanting to get into ML compared to game dev nowadays
but yeah, 10 years ago or so game dev was definitely the big choice
crude crown
as a day job, I'd say so.
open stag
1- Find the options that can make some money and realistically you think have the skills/"talent" to get into those
You mentioned this
crude crown
yup
open stag
Where would I be able to find a bunch of those options
crude crown
that's also an ongoing question for me
(yes, I'm considering leaving my job as an ML Engineer)
80000 hours is an interesting resource for a start
white karma
Having no background in programming whatsoever, I’m going the web dev route
open stag
All I've done is basic Python stuff
crude crown
might help you anyway
that's something I find important in ANY field, which is to automate (or at least attempt) some of your tasks
which can actually be achieved for some things without coding
crude crown
follow the heuristic I've mentioned : )
crude crown
the software industry is one of them.
stable cipher
almost anything software related will find you good money
stable cipher
try webdev
open stag
Okay
crude crown
this summer?
stable cipher
fairly easy to start and it pays well
crude crown
yeah, I would say JS (in particular React) and HTML.
open stag
React?
crude crown
it's a JS framework
crude crown
yup!
open stag
I'll stick with JS for now
crude crown
both
open stag
Do companies that hire you care what you write the backend in?
stable cipher
I used codecademy a while back, it's changed a lot but it's probably still helpful https://www.codecademy.com/learn/paths/web-development
usually the backend is already written
so you just need to have a track record of being able to pick up and work in a new language/framework
stable cipher
not necessarily
crude crown
if you're working only on the frontend, it won't matter at all for you.
stable cipher
if you have basics in two or more languages, you've shown that you can pick up more
that's also true
open stag
Oh ok
stable cipher
and everybody on the web needs frontend, JS is ubiquitous
open stag
Alexa, define ubiquitos
crude crown
it's everywhere
open stag
Got it
So if I learn JS
I'm probably good to go
Hard part will be finding a job that will hire a frontend boi
stable cipher
like I said, everybody that has a website needs frontend
open stag
That's good
stable cipher
and I personally like hiring a mix of senior and junior engineers- the seniors have been through the ringer, but the juniors are hungry and eager to prove themselves
stable cipher
yes, I make hiring decisions
open stag
Do you own your own company?
stable cipher
no, I'm on the founding team of my company though
open stag
Do you need a degree for most WebDev jobs?
stable cipher
but not a cofounder
vapid jay
the only alternative to JS for frontend at the moment is wasm and it's very immature. if you learn JS it's worth considering typescript on top, which will be pretty easy to pick up once you're comfortable with how JS works.
stable cipher
no, but it helps
open stag
I was thinking of getting a bachelor's in CS
stable cipher
that's a good choice IMO
open stag
but if I'm going to do something that doesn't need it, I don't want to spent 60 grand
crude crown
yeah, Typescript is an up and coming candidate.
open stag
Is typescript like a variation of JS?
stable cipher
well, college is more than the degree
open stag
Can it be used for frontend dev?
crude crown
and you don't get a CS degree to learn web dev...
indigo sleet
typescript is just JS with strict typing
vapid jay
typescript compiles into JS, it's like how SCSS becomes CSS
indigo sleet
(and it's awesome)
open stag
Strict typing?
stable cipher
typescript compiles to JS
crude crown
you might need to dwell in other languages to interface with other systems/teams
recently, I've had to implement things in Kotlin because it was necessary
open stag
I'll worry about other languages for webdev after JS
indigo sleet
(This is getting off-topic, but a strict typing system means you define the types that a variable may hold, and the compiler will enforce that)
crude crown
you don't just "learn" a language and that's it.
open stag
Like C# vs. Python
stable cipher
JS can also be a backend language
indigo sleet
JS (and TS) can indeed do backend too yes
stable cipher
either way, learning the basics of a language will transfer to other languages
crude crown
you start learning up to a minimally productive level and, hopefully, the learning never stops.
stable cipher
I would recommend learning the first one deeply, then flirting with a handful of languages
crude crown
I agree
indigo sleet
Yup, that's a good policy
Most good developers can wield multiple langauges
Programmer polyglots, as it were
stable cipher
true, when I hire somebody, I expect them to be able to hop in to any part of my product, no matter the language (or at least be willing to learn)
crude crown
as someone who had to pickup JS and React last year because it was necessary...
I don't think it translates that well
stable cipher
some parts will, but JS is a special language because it's runtime is so different from other languages
indigo sleet
The heavy OO parts of Python do end up being useful, as does the general logical mindset
but JS is quite different from just about every other language
open stag
The idea of being able to use multiple languages is cool and very strange
digital fjord
it is helpful, but you will have to learn quite a bit still
open stag
Okay
vapid jay
the language is a tool. sometimes you want a screwdriver, sometimes a hammer, sometimes a crab
open stag
I'm only 15 too
indigo sleet
(JS is the crab)
indigo sleet
:>
open stag
Well I'm gonna finish my last Python project
then start learning JS and HTML
Wish me luck then
crude crown
good luck
indigo sleet
you've got this \o/
crude crown
you're still really young, take it easy.
shadow moss
you can start straight with TypeScript
sullen osprey
Guys is c# goos language to move from lython
J cant fight with flask and stulid forms....
Nor webdev is interesting to me that much atm
:/
open stag
you can start straight with TypeScript
@shadow moss I was just told to do this in another server.
:D
grizzled trout
In coding interviews, is python the best language to use?
radiant moon
the best language to use is the one that a) the interviewer will allow and that b) you'll make a good impression with
pulsar drum
In my opinion, for what that's worth, it is at least a good language (I wouldn't call it the best).
It has a simpler syntax and less boilerplate sometimes, so you can just focus on the problem more
marsh wind
I'm only 15 too
@open stag you should have started with that. Trust me, you can not choose career when you 15 😉
Like, you can explore and delve into different things. But I would go for and try to find things you enjoy
As that can help a lot with deciding what kind of degree you might want
And even then, many people who go for a degree having career in mind will eventually see it doesn't fit them personally and would take a turn towards something veery different
open stag
Thats my plan
inland swallow
Before switching, consider making a large project with Python. Something fun and engaging. Maybe try something with PyGame, or some other GUI library. It's good to have one "big" (relative) project under your belt before you start language hopping. It doesn't have to be anything crazy, just something you can feel proud of, and come back to down the line.
Because generally, as you get to know any language better, learning the rest just boils down to remembering new syntax.
vapid jay
I started with Hypercard and TI-BASIC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperCard
Don't worry about languages early on, focus on 'doing stuff'.
For general purpose anything I would 100% suggest everyone starts with Python
wheat oxide
@marsh wind I chose mine at 14
vapid jay
What's a good career to head for? I'm learning python ATM I need tips
wheat oxide
@vapid jay Quantum computing
vapid jay
Tf is that
wheat oxide
near schooner
imo, go after security or ML, two very well paying fields and are always interesting
or both like me 🙂
but whatever you like doing most
proper thunder
I want yo beacome a software engineer what i must do to take first step?????
near schooner
Learn one programming language very well, then start learning comp sci topics
proper thunder
Like???
near schooner
Understand efficiency and what the code you're writing actually does
near schooner
Yes, it's a great language to learn/know
proper thunder
I m a newbie
But whenever i talk to people they say u must learn c++ and java
Is it important
near schooner
You can learn whatever language you want, I work at a major company writing exclusively python
wheat oxide
@proper thunder If you want to be a software engineer, a solid understanding of the fundamentals is very helpful, e.g. boolean algebra, digital logic, and data structures
proper thunder
Okay
wheat oxide
@proper thunder In some sense, Python actually is a bad language to learn those since it conceals many of the most difficult parts
proper thunder
@wheat oxide i found Python easy
near schooner
Python can be as advanced as you want it to be. It does conceal a lot, but you yourself can dive deeper into those topics and understand what python is actually doing
But you don't need to worry about that right now, just learn whatever language you're interested in and get really good at it
Biggest recommendation is to start working on a project
wheat oxide
@near schooner Python doesn't do everything
proper thunder
Okay
near schooner
I didn't say it does
wheat oxide
Saying it's "as advanced as you want it to be" is misleading
near schooner
How is that misleading? Python can be very complex, as can almost anything
If you were a curious person, you could go read cpython and start writing code for the core
That's not something a newbie or even a professional would do
proper thunder
Bcos c++ is hard
wheat oxide
@near schooner It's a high-level language. Many advanced topics involve low-level languages or entirely different paradigms
proper thunder
What is the average salary of software engineer?
near schooner
I don't understand what point you're trying to make zoid
wheat oxide
@proper thunder Varies by many factors like region
near schooner
Serpent, it takes months to a year to get a decent understanding of a language if you're brand new to programming
and how active you are in programming
wheat oxide
@near schooner Just that Python isn't the answer for everything. It may even be a disadvantage to have it as a first language given how many important subjects you can ignore while still writing code with Python
near schooner
@wheat oxide I never said it's the answer for everything... It could be a disadvantage, but as I've been saying, you can make it as advanced as you want. You can go learn yourself how python works underneath, where it's being "obfuscated". Python is a great starter language because it holds your hand a little bit, and you're focused on just learning how to code rather than having to worry about everything.
wheat oxide
@near schooner And I maintain that saying "you can make it advanced as you want" is misleading at best
proper thunder
Please stop this controversy
I don't do as much i spend time on other subjects
Okay tell me this
It my last year in school
What is the most imp subject for me
vapid jay
Has anyone heard of this company? https://www.linkedin.com/company/facetdev/
Nop
What are the 3 main languages for software dev, I know python kinda is
What industry?
wheat oxide
@vapid jay https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/
vapid jay
Ada, C, C++, Simulink, Javascript, Python, R, FORTRAN, Julia, Rust,
light knoll
what do you guys reccomend someone who's under 18 to focus on? I've learned the python syntax but haven't gone into anything specific. I would like to make some extra money. Thanks
wheat oxide
@light knoll Age isn't really relevant. You'd probably want to look around your community for what people want help with.
light knoll
@wheat oxide thanks for info
rancid marsh
It really depends on what you want to do
You can reduce @vapid jay's list to C, C++, Rust, JS, Julia, Java**, Python and R imo
even R is becoming less and less relevant with julia taking over but yeah
vapid jay
"The good thing about C++ is you only need to use 10% of the language.
The bad part about C++ is everyone uses a different 10%".
C++ is setting itself up to be the next Java/COBOL. It'll never die but that's not really good.
For C's core use cases I think Go will replace it on the server. It seems like people are rebuilding the internet's core (Back to NNTP) in Go. It compiles to a bunch of architectures as a static binary.
For Embedded I think C is going to get replaced by Rust for 'new production'. MISRA would probably be greatly simplified.
summer roost
I'm betting Rust will outlive Go.
marsh wind
@wheat oxide lucky you then :) usually thaf doesn't happen. At best people who arr 14 might choose that they want career that would be have something to do with coding. But then it can be ML, security, web, game dev, embedded etc
And that is not 'choosing a career' more like very general direction
vapid jay
I think go and rust are different usecases. Just like FORTRAN's original use case is now covered by Python, Matlab/Octave, Julia, etc.
I could be wrong. It's a roll of the die.
marsh wind
I think go and rust are different usecases. Just like FORTRAN's original use case is now covered by Python, Matlab/Octave, Julia, etc.
@vapid jay it's not. Julia hasn't got enough attention yet and others are not fast enough when you really need speed
It can be covered, to extend through libs like numpy. But when you need to scale
@vapid jay looks good to me except 'Strong' in soft skills
gilded valley
I really don't think the two columns look is a good one
it's very non standard
and IMO hard to read
Also - it's probably not worth including numbers unless they're impressive. e.g taught 30 students is good and meaningful, but 1 minute pitch and 1 page essay sounds a bit eh
supple fossil
Man... I feel like I don't know enough to land a tech job or even an analyst job
steep jolt
Anyone interested in NLP there is live session going on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpMmpKIvsnQ
vital valley
halcyon plank
Heya! Guys do you think that certificates are really valuable while looking for internship or jobs
Like my friends are busy collecting tons of certificates from sites like coursera & all but they don't seem to be applying that knowledge
And I have 0 certificates 😕
halcyon plank
So companies don't really care about them?
Like when I see my LinkedIn feed, it's flooded with certificates which my friends earned lol
swift veldt
Having a couple certificates from coursera helped me secure my application for a MSc as a mature student. But professionally, it will come short of projects and actual work experience for sure.
See certificates as a base on which to build something marketable. That would be my best bet at an advice on this topic.
crude crown
certificates are overrated as hell
yeah, there's people that like to collect these certificates but personally I don't give any weight to them. I'm interested in what you actually know, independently of where you got that knowledge
but I do see some benefits in some cases like in RoMS's one, in case you're applying to things which require "paperwork"
shadow moss
certificates may or may not help, very culture/company dependent
like we see our contractors getting them but I think it's because they are trying to market themselves to the company
vapid jay
@vapid jay """""President""""" lmao I'm the president of that club
caught you lacking
😉
py game is the best?
gotta flex eh @vapid jay
dawg you barely show up for the meetings
its a placeholder dw, about it, im gonna replace it with hackathons im doing
i see
i hated the white space being there so i just dropped it in there
kk
lmao thats funny th
tho
first time i checked in on this server in weeks as well
mossy heart
Aware that this server is dedicated to python, but which of these two is good to know: Java or C++
digital fjord
depends on a lot of things. I would say C++ is better to know, because memory management is nice to know about, but java has its noteworthy things as well (the OOP model, albeit imperfect, is often applicable)
mossy heart
Thanks.
shadow moss
Depends on type of programming you want to do but Java likely has more jobs
There is sooooo much Java code out there in enterprises
crude crown
Java for sure has more jobs
summer roost
C has more jobs than C++ or Java, and learning C++ will teach you a lot of C too.
based on the 2020 Tiobe index - https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/
@vapid jay You may want to change "Web Technologies" to just "Technologies". There's nothing web-specific about Node.js, MongoDB, or MySQL. Grammar wise, "Increased over 40 students math grades" should be "Increased over 40 students' math grades" - plural possessive. Similarly, "Designed and developed the apps interface" should be "the app's interface"; also possessive. "Instructed 10 students the fundamentals of" should either be "Taught 10 students the fundamentals of" or "Instructed 10 students in the fundamentals of" - you can't use "Instructed" without the preposition. "levels up to Calculus" sounds wrong to me, as an American English speaker - perhaps just say "math up to Calculus"? (A cashier who gets to do some software sounds a lot like me in high school - nice 😄) If you can give any specifics on the new customer service strategies, you have space for it and it's always good to try to explain how you improved things (though quantifying things is awesome, you've done a great job of that). It's not uncommon for people to print a resume, or to copy info out of it and into some in-house recruitment management system - you may want to consider including URLs to your projects, instead of just the clickable links, since they may not make it to the hiring manager - though that'll take up some space... That applies more if you're applying to larger corporations or through recruiters; those practices are more common where there's lots of applicants that need to be handled. Technically "pandemic" shouldn't be capitalized.
vapid jay
Thank you so much for all those tips @summer roost
I was wondering if a 2 column layout works fine or if I should modify this to fit a more standard one column google docs type layout?
summer roost
I like the layout - I think it looks good.
rancid marsh
@marsh wind replying a bit late, but now is the perfect time to jump in Julia. Your argument could've been true 2 years ago, but now with more stable versions and a bigger community / package maturity (let's get real, julia packages can be developped 10x faster than Python,s since you don't have to use C++, it's clearly catching up right now) is at a point where you have almost everything you need, and you can use embedded python for the few things that might be missing.
I use it to work now and I would never go back.
Of course you have to take into account that it's a bold move, since it's a new language. But depending on the market you're targeting, it can be really rewarding. For safety, stick with python for now obviously, that will definitely not change for a while
rancid marsh
Yes
fringe plume
random tip on writing applications, don't start every sentence with the same character or the same 2 characters or word over and over. a common one is too many beginning with "I" like "I have..." and "I am..." et.c.
also listening back to it using online text-to-speech pretending it's someone else trying to talk to you works wonders for a lot of things
steep jolt
Dear All, I am have 8+ years of SAP ABAP(OO) Experience. Python Magics has attracted me to learn it. Any suggestion of ABAP+Python for Career Enhancement ?. Would love to hear from you 🙂
burnt tiger
@rancid marsh
(let's get real, julia packages can be developped 10x faster than Python,s since you don't have to use C++, it's clearly catching up right now)
I wouldn't be so certain of that, considering that alternative implementations of Python such as Cython and PyPy are making it increasingly easy to write code with comparable performance to C/C++ (especially Cython, which is more practical to develop packages in the context of compatibility). At a surface level, it's easy to forget that implementations other than the default CPython exist.
Also, while it never hurts to learn more languages, language choice really shouldn't be a primary focus in the first place. If you focus instead on the underlying concepts, you can competently program in pretty much any language with a relatively small amount of time investment.
rancid marsh
Obviously, I completely agree.
I have never used Cython, but from what I remember people saying it was hard to integrate with Python code. Also, it still doesn't solve the point I made where every libraries have to reimplement everything because they cannot rely on a more "raw" general one, like Pandas str methods and Tensorflow autodiff
burnt tiger
I have never used Cython, but from what I remember people saying it was hard to integrate with Python code.
It does take some additional steps, but I wouldn't say it's especially hard to integrate. Although that's somewhat subjective and based on my own experience rather than that of others.
Also, it still doesn't solve the point I made where every libraries have to reimplement everything because they cannot rely on a more "raw" general one, like Pandas str methods and Tensorflow autodiff
That's largely because Python is a very general language and not specifically focused on stats or data science (which is both a pro and a con).
I can't speak much for or against Julia though, as I have no personal experience with using it. For those seriously invested in that area though, it seems worthwhile to develop a basic familiarity with Python, R, and Julia (at least based on my observations).
teal flax
.. julia has a builtin automatic differentiation system?
rancid marsh
Yes, you can differentiate (almost) any julia function
no need to use gradient tapes or anything like that
nor to construct a function graph, it's all done automatically thanks to Zygote
vapid jay
I have never worked in software before, but I think I could maybe if things fall into place and I keep pushing for it.
What should I put here? If I put the actual company, it will appear like I am not capable of doing the job. Obviously I have to tell the truth, but... should I put all this other stuff for what I am aiming for and not what I have done?
It is LI btw
I recently put up this draft. It needs revision but its a start. https://shanerowden.github.io/
gilded valley
I don't really follow - if you havent/aren't working as a web dev, why would you put that you are on your linkedin?
vapid jay
There is an article on what to put on linkedin that i read that says that one approach you can take is to design the profile for your most immediate goal and clarify this later in a form i have not gotten to yet, as per this article. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-brand-yourself-linkedin-when-unemployed-dave-byrnes/ Its not really about being unemployed though. Its about not caring to have a linkedin unless it is for opening up software development opportunities.
gilded valley
Ah sure. That makes sense, I just thought you were looking specifically to put an actual company down and was a bit confused
vapid jay
I would prefer to just say, "No experience working in the industry yet" lol.
gilded valley
I'd take junior out of the job title, and then put just Self-employed hobbyist or something similar for the company
vapid jay
ah ok. I read another thing that said if you are a junior developer to own it and demonstrate what you can do as a junior dev, so that when someone needs that assembly line worker, they can find you. But maybe not in this field. Ok, thanks
Also... so, I was expelled from university in my junior year when I went to jail. I think that I could apply for the associate degree and get it with minimal effort. Is that worth it?
I know its possible to get a job despite this. I have a friend I havent seen in years who I knew from back when, and he went to prison for years and is probably still on parole i would speculate. I reconnected with him briefly because he works as a developer now.
Hes a felon multiple times over...
over a decade ago now but still
he works here https://turnerlogic.com/
I'm not sure that this is the most prestigious shop but its experience
TBH, I would think that Americans would be aware that people go to jail for reasons that make no sense all the time... Its so obvious when you look at the people who come out and are not criminals lol.
marsh wind
its hard to overcome pre-judice
crude crown
unfortunately, Lossberg's got a point (and it's a general humanity thing)
I would only disclose my criminal record only in case it's really required and I would really make a point of moving the conversation to some other things when it reached that topic.
gilded valley
I'm not sure how relevant an associates is - but it almost certainly won't hurt, so I guess it depends on both the time and the money cost to you
In the UK at least, every single job application I've seen has required you to declare a criminal record
crude crown
here in Portugal I've never heard or saw anything like that.
indigo sleet
In Ireland they can't make you do that
We have this Garda vetting thing
It depends on the country really
shadow moss
Depends on the state/company in United States but background checks are common
TLS, if you are in a state where they "ban the box", it might be ok
but otherwise, if they ask, and you have felony/misdemeanor convictions that haven't been expunged, then you should answer truthly, lying then it coming up on background check will go more poorly
obsidian acorn
Also, if they don't find out then, and find out later that you had that being in court, and that it did not come out in the background check, they can still fire you later on with that you did not disclose the information at the beginning.
@vapid jay Also, keep in mind that some companies don't care about felonies, and misdemeanors, but others like, banks, and credit card companies, or any company that deals in some with those, or the government.
vapid jay
Right. It's commonly looked at in industries where there will be discrimnation for a variety of unfair reasons because the jobs are for the working class, and admittedly, there are things that should be looked at in terms of who belongs where. But... in America it is a little bit overly worked into society, and as a result it is difficult to see it clearly. particularly in regard to how it affects common people. I have been told that it is not common to ask in development which is refreshing.
I dont actually have a felony. They dropped it after charging me because there wasnt evidence enough for it but they made me pleas to other things for them to do that. and other factors changed the financial situation with my schooling, which i would have finished otherwise, but instead I spent a while trying to demonstrate i was not a liability... And, that I could pay for the fees that would keep me out of a longer jail sentence.
Anyway, Murica. I hope its one of the few things that is not an obstacle in trying to break into this.
But yeah, there are articles about how the practice of asking should be stopped because its not productive on either end.
It was funny how the dean looked at my grades and said, "Well I expected you to be falling behind. Are you gonna be okay? What are you gonna do? We're going to have to expel you unfortunately because blah blah." And it was just like, "I'm going to owe on my loans as soon as I get out of jail after not being in school, peace."
Loans which I would be unfit to receive for reasons that... didnt bother to look at my grades.
alright back to work ha
summer roost
@vapid jay I know felons with jobs in industry. Misdemeanors will be even easier. Obviously it will be an obstacle - people would prefer to hire someone who isn't a convicted criminal over someone who is, all things being equal. But there are enough developer jobs out there that companies sometimes try for months or longer to find a qualified applicant. It's a buyer's market right now; convictions would hurt you much more in a seller's market. Some states ban the practice of asking about convictions prior to the interview - I doubt Texas is one of them, since that's generally a liberal policy, but you could consider moving to another state to make breaking into the industry easier, if you're having trouble in Texas.
vapid jay
What is against me more than the actual charges is that they cahnged my life in a way that I didnt work in a related field. On paper it looks like I gave up at school and didnt want to finish. There is a history of acception what job i could get when it was more recent. It is less of a problem now generally but it has affect my life to where I seem less fit to do things i can do.
But yeah.
summer roost
Associates degree would probably help, if only in terms of changing that story.
"Look at what I'm doing to improve myself since then"
vapid jay
Yeah thats what i was thinking. Im pretty sure with one class at a community college out of pocket I could get the assoicates degree.
Its been a while though, I always looked at it as not worth it. And in truth at one time it wasnt.
But now it might have value for that reason
summer roost
Yeah. I think it could only help.
That's true for pretty much anything you can point to that says that any criminal ways are in your past. If it comes up in interviews, you can point to community service that you do since then, or volunteering, or having different friends, heh. You'll have to sell that they won't spend a bunch of money training you only to have you get arrested again. If you can tell a good enough story to convince them that isn't a risk, you should be fine
vapid jay
It will not be difficult to see that I am not a criminal, in my opinion. If anyone thought otherwise after talking to me and looking into it, it would be because the are ignorant of what criminal patterns look like lol
Its been over a decade of showing up to dates and paying on time and that really isnt the issue. In many industries, its just an embarassing thing to talk about because what I did was not objectionable imo. It was incredibly stupid and the circumstances were stacked up in a certain way. But what it makes me look like is someone who didnt try at school when that is not true. It makes me look like someone who made the mistake that I had to learn from and that much is real. But im not a liability. If anything, I will spot any sort of nefarious behaviour from a mile away and point it out, explain why the crimianl will use it, and cover the hole up ha
summer roost
Then it's just a matter of getting to the interview.
vapid jay
yep.
summer roost
And that's where "ban the box" legislation comes in. It's designed to stop people in exactly your sort of situation from getting screened out before the interview.
Anyway - it'll make things a bit harder, but it's definitely not an insurmountable challenge. There may be companies who will never hire a convicted criminal, but you probably wouldn't have wanted to work for those places anyway.
That's indicative of a type of management dysfunction that you probably want to avoid.
vapid jay
Yeah. There have only been a few times that people openly were like, "Oh goodness we could never have that here" to my face haha. It was prety horrible feeling at the time.
What do they mean by this... ha
Becasue it sounds like they want me to be james bond.
summer roost
it means what it says. That position requires the highest level of US security clearance.
summer roost
you don't have to be James Bond for it - there are only 3 levels of clearance; Top Secret isn't that hard to get.
vapid jay
ah i see
Bit of a buzzword going on there it sounds like.
So, should I include my education in my LinkedIn seeing as to how it was incomplete and furthermore, not focused on development anyway.
summer roost
it most likely means that they hold government contracts, and you'd be expected to contribute to projects - or visit sites - that require Top Secret clearance.
vapid jay
I did learn how to do research well and write papers citing proof
summer roost
your resume should be a full page. You should probably list the college, even if it's incomplete - but if you already have a full page and are looking for stuff to drop, you could consider dropping it first if you think other stuff is more relevant to the role.
vapid jay
which is relevant
Tbh, the work experience is not relevant at all. Mainly what I have going for me is that... I passionately think about software and development all the time whether I get paid for it or not and thst just how it is. If I had discovered it sooner Id have been doing it a long time ago. Just happens that I only have a bout a year of doing it. But I regularly do it.
I mean, I have good skills with people and making things work socially. When the computers dont work I am the guy who explains to tech support what they need to do to fix it haha But im not the guy.
summer roost
I'd probably say to start with any job that you can get with the job title you want, don't worry too much about pay/benefits/etc (as long as the pay is enough to cover your expenses, at least), and then plan to jump to another company once you have more relevant experience under your belt. It can be a bit hard to break into the industry without a degree, but once you have some experience you can point to no one cares about the degree.
vapid jay
Right. That is really all I care about. I want experience in the field that is relevant to software just for that. To be honest, I dont care about money. I mean I do in so much as I have to. But that it not the end game. I want to get better at development and so I need professional experience.
I would work for free probably if I believed in the work.
at least at first
summer roost
don't. 😉
unpaid internships are relatively rare, and companies that have them are often trying to use them to flout labor laws. They're likely to be full of low paid talent, and you're likely to learn a lot less there than somewhere that's paying you and has an incentive in getting their money's worth out of you.
shadow moss
TLS, If you have recent misdemeanor, you are likely not eligible for Top Secret clearance
and company will likely not hire you anyways because they don't want to submit you for TS, government decides not to grant it, and you are rejected. Not to mention interim will likely not to be granted
radiant moon
I'd guess a misdemeanor would be more like: your company says "wait a year and apply again"
shadow moss
company doesn't want them on payroll
most of recommendations I've seen say 7 years between conviction and application date with nose 100% clean, no history of any drug use (including marijuana despite local status) and steady job history
radiant moon
well in my case my company was and is happy to have me on the payroll; clearance would have been a nice bonus, but it wasn't a requirement for my job. /spoiler I didn't pass the interviews, so I never got clearance
vapid jay
The charge was literally in 2008 and there was no conviction technically because I complied with terms that made them just charges for which I had to plea guilty to. Its weird. But technically there was no conviction. The problem is... Companies dont get their info on citizens backgrounds from the government. They get it fromthe private sector who doesnt care about accuracy. So the charges are there.
But if you call the magistrate they will tell you that I was not convicted.
I took deferred adjudication if you are familiar with that, after serving some time without bail because iu didnt have a way out, not by order.
I probably will not apply for the government job tho lol
summer roost
@vapid jay you're right, a deferred adjudication isn't a conviction. Technically, if a company asks if you've ever been convicted of a crime (and IME that's usually the wording they use), it would be accurate to say no. You still may want to say yes, anyway, though - it likely will come up in a background check, as you said, and they may decide you were lying to them (even though you technically weren't) - bringing it up in advance may be the smarter play.
the other thing to consider is that for a relatively low fee, you could pull a background check on yourself and see how it shows up. Or, if you ever make it to the background check stage and are rejected based on the results of the background check, they're probably (this is state law specific, but AFAIK in most states) required to give you a copy of the report, so that you can dispute anything incorrect in there.
they may not have to give it if you don't ask, though - you may need to request a copy of the report.
After expunging your criminal history in Texas, you are legally allowed to deny that you were ever arrested in employment applications and other contexts. In fact, it is a crime to knowingly reveal information subject to an order for expunction in Texas. It’s also a crime to knowingly fail to destroy that information. There are civil law penalties, too.
You may want to look into whether this is eligible for expunction, as well - this was over a decade ago, and if you haven't been in trouble since it seems likely that it would be. There's an upfront cost to that, but if you're eligible for it it could pay for itself many times over in lifetime earnings and ease of switching jobs.
Even if it's not eligible for expunction yet, figure out when it will be and set a calendar appointment for as soon as you can do it 😄
vapid jay
Actually, I could easily pull a background check on myself for free. I have access to that sort of thing because my wife works in a legal office and I often help her with skipracing.
She has access to that through the firm
I also put some effort into ranking on top of mugshot pages and criminal record history shamesites. It works for awhile and then it doesnt.
for the time being it seems my name is clean
Maybe i should put that in thje portfolio 😛
summer roost
😆
vapid jay
The truth is that different providers of data have varied results.
They are mostly the same. I have seen people cite the wrong charges before
summer roost
yep. but, if it's expunged, they're legally required to remove it - and failure to do has both criminal and civil penalties, according to what I pasted above.
so, if that option is available to you, definitely explore it.
vapid jay
Now, they arent expunded. I could go that route at this point. But they are not technically that. I believe its like 10k or it was when I last looked into it. Honestly, its a thing I hate bringing up at interviews, but it has not made anyone react to me extremely negatively in a long time
Thats good to know though, I didnt know about the making them destroy it.
shadow moss
it's scary how much data is bought and sold on individuals and just how inaccurate it is
summer roost
the site I found said to expect expunction in Texas to have a $600 filing fee, and up to $3000 in legal fees
shadow moss
we deal with marketing data at my work, I've looked at my data as it's come in, it's comical as hell
vapid jay
Yeah, one time it said I was charged with theft, and I wasnt. Theft is viewed very different than other crimes. I only saw one group of people ever report that tho.
But it angered me
shadow moss
I imagine background check data is just as bad
summer roost
but that's just what I found in a few minutes of googling - could be wrong/misleading, or could be that you could leverage some connections of your wife to get some pro bono representation.
vapid jay
Oh it is. The primary skill when skiptracing is sifting through the wrong data. Most of it is trash.
It requires a human eye to connect the real things
jaunty heron
What kind of jobs are in store for people who learn neural networks/AI?
stable cipher
ML engineer usually
crude crown
or data scientists
manic sable
software engineer in machine learning is also a post
marsh wind
basically there are many manes, and ofyen used interchangably
celest bronze
In 6 months or so i want to apply for a internship at a company that work with a lot of AI, one of the requirements is a solid mathematical understanding , where can i improve my mathematic skills to the point where i have a solid understanding ?
i almost have my degree and i dont feel like its enough. Are there any EDX courses someone might suggest ?
digital fjord
3B1B Is pretty solid both as a crash course and a full guide
old frigate
Can we create predictive models in python for stocks?
Sorry new here
Not sure if this is the right place to ask
visual flare
@old frigate I thinks there is a #data-science-and-ml to this problem
noble goblet
Seems like a lot of SWE interviews have standard algo questions. Is it okay to use a built-in implementation rather than coding from scratch? For example, can I just import a binary tree, queue, or hashmap?
steep jolt
!resource
inner wrenBOT
marsh wind
@noble goblet i think you should simply ask interviewers
But normally in data structures and algorithms question they would expect you to be able to demonstrate that you understand how to write them rather than use built in
bronze pond
https://www.edx.org/course/cs50s-web-programming-with-python-and-javascript
so im a current high school student planning to major with honors in CS, I plan to get some certificates from some courses for my future resume but problem is it costs $150USD to get the verified certificate. Is there any other way I can prove I did the course?
mint citrus
why even get a certificate?
make some projects
show off what you can do
certificates are a waste of money
bronze pond
hm alright
mint citrus
has 0 certificates
marsh wind
your github with projects is your prove
mint citrus
I do have a BS tho. but that didnt get me jobs. I was working before I had the degree
My personal projects is what got me in the door and it just continued from there
marsh wind
also, likely, internships you will do during your degree are what you will show as experience ( if you are in the country where you do interships)
mint citrus
i did one internship which ended up being my stepping stone to actual work
marsh wind
so long story short @bronze pond , don't waste your money
mint citrus
milage may differ in country
bronze pond
alright thanks for the advice
marsh wind
milage may differ in country
for sure, but I don't think that opinion on online courses certs differs a lot across countries and companies
mint citrus
yeah i just meant the internship to job part
I know a few people who had to work hard to get a job or take multiple internships
marsh wind
oh yeah, that part can vary a lot. During my MSc/Bsc, official interships in companies rarely (if ever) were a thing even in CS degrees.
torpid loom
I just did a Coursera course in ML using tensor Flow will that help me in my career for higher studies and job . I got a certificate
marsh wind
@torpid loom not really, unless you've done any projects with it (not course one of course)
warped crypt
Certificates are generally the selling point, a portfolio is better - and if you're in a job already professional certifications
Are not generally the selling point *
topaz walrus
general MOOC certifications prob aren't that helpful
vapid jay
They can still be used as a form of qualification though in some cases
It’s useful to prove you know something
Also good for advancing your knowledge further it seems
topaz walrus
thats true, they are better than nothing but professional certificates are more valuable
agile skiff
Hi all, I am in the process of writing up my resume and while looking through some resume templates, I saw quite a number of "Open-source developer" popping up. I was wondering if a person posted his or her personal projects on Github and people have used them and liked them, is he or she considered an "Open source developer"?
Or
Does she need to go above and beyond by contributing to existing projects that are established and renowned within the community? Packages like Pandas or PyTorch?
radiant moon
well I imagine the latter is more impressive; but the former isn't bad
agile skiff
But will you even put that job title on your resume?
pulsar drum
If i make fairly regular and relatively significant contributions then I will feel comfortable putting that title
It implies working with others, to me
I don't think the projects have to be big or well known, but of course that's a plus
agile skiff
Cool thanks for the ans @pulsar drum
burnt tiger
@agile skiff As someone who's resume is largely devoted to contributions in open source projects, I find the title "Open source developer" to be almost entirely meaningless by itself. Instead, it's much more significant to focus on how you specifically contributed. Optimally, you can even link to significant pull requests that were merged to directly show a potential employer the specific changes you made.
I won't link my full resume, but here's a format that's worked decently well for me just to give you an idea of what I'm talking about:
summer roost
I think if it's something you're proud of, it's worth listing, more or less. A resume is a full-page advertisement for you. If you think it's more useful for painting the picture that you want painted than something else that could go in that space, I say go for it. I probably wouldn't use the phrase "Open source developer", though - I agree with @burnt tiger , that's near meaningless.
agile skiff
Why title will u then give to someone who have contributed significantly to open source? Like if I want to provide a reference to this individual, how do I describe him/her?
burnt tiger
You could potentially use something like "active contributor/developer for open source software" in the intro for the resume, but there's not really a specific relevant title to use.
summer roost
if they have commit rights, FooProject Committer sounds good
burnt tiger
FooProject Core Developer is also fairly frequently used to describe those w/ commit privileges in major open source projects
summer roost
or, if they're the primary author, FooProject Author
burnt tiger
Such as for Python/CPython and Django, just to name a couple of examples
agile skiff
cool, thks for the ans!
burnt tiger
If you don't have anything better to use though "Open source developer" is okay, just make sure that it's actually backed by significant contributions and not referred to as an official title.
Employers will be much more interested in what you actually did rather than an arbitary title used to describe it.
vapid jay
Hi, I'm a long time tech recruiter, so shoot if you have any career/interview/CV/portfolio related questions. :)
(I might ask you about pandas and web scraping related tips in exchange lol...)
vapid jay
Tem algum carioca aqui?
tall cloud
What should I talk about if a company asked me to record 1 min video of tell them about myself
I have no idea lol
white karma
Do companies do that?
tall cloud
Yeah unfortunately
white karma
That’s a strange concept to me
Like outside of an audition tape actors make to get a role in a movie, that’s strange
gilded valley
What should I talk about if a company asked me to record 1 min video of tell them about myself
@tall cloud
introduce yourself, talk about the areas you're interested in that are related to the job. e.g "Hi, I'm Tim, I'm a software developer who has [worked at XYZ companies][just graduated from ABC university]. Im interested in Python, JavaScript and PythonScript..."
tall cloud
What if I am fresh grad?
Hi, my name is xxx.
I have a bachelor degree in Mathematics and big passion in programming or computer science in general. I started off my professional career as a programming teacher in my university where I taught algorithm and programming course to 30-40 university students. As a result, I am proficient in various programming languages especially in web development . A couple of projects that I have done is xxx which is a web app for generating invoice. Another project of mine is Covid-19 Dashboard, which I built using visualization technologies. I love learning various technologies and I am always looking to improve my work.
gilded valley
I included that in the message. I've done a bunch of these whilst applying for internships. Just talk about things like: Units on your course, your hobby projects, previous internships, previous non-tech experience, why you got into programming, the specific tech you know+like, pretty much any rubbish you can think of that is at least semi related
tall cloud
^ that's basisally what I had done
gilded valley
Yeah, that sounds like it's probably fine
If you haven't recorded it yet, make sure it doesn't sound like you're reading from a script
tall cloud
@gilded valley thanks. I will take your advice
gilded valley
Also make sure your background is reasonable (i.e not dirty clothes if its in your bedroom)
tall cloud
do you thinnk it is good idea to to list the technologies like languages or frameworks i have work with?
would HR like that or even understand those technical terms?
like for example i created this project using xxx, and frontend framework like react ...
gilded valley
I'm not really sure. Normally it is HR people who look at these videos first, then they might pass them on to tech people (at least thats how two companies I know of did it). So you don't want to hyperfocus on tech stuf
shadow moss
bruhh, write a script and stick to it, 1 minute means 1 minute
tall cloud
yeah, with the above script, I have spent 47 seconds
I have about 13 seconds left
@gilded valley thanks for the insight
shadow moss
Do you have any non computer hobby?
tall cloud
@shadow moss I do run sometimes
shadow moss
ever in races?
gilded valley
I talked about norse mythology in one video interview thing - then got asked about it in an in person interview and had fuck all to say
shadow moss
I'd drop a line about jogging
fringe plume
record the video while jogging like a chad
shadow moss
but be prepared to talk about it in interview
tall cloud
@fringe plume hahaha, no time lol, this has to be uploaded in 4 hours
and it is 11 pm here lol
fringe plume
at least make sure nothing weird's in the background
shadow moss
even if it's "I enjoy jogging just for exercise and clear my mind."
shadow moss
strong "Thank you for your time and hope to hear from you soon"
at the end is always good
gilded valley
Try and make the lighting not shit. Having a professional look+environment probably matters more than you'd think
shadow moss
Is this American company?
tall cloud
@fringe plume ah shit, i thought about putting them as backgrounds 😂😂
fringe plume
😄
shadow moss
yea, professional look, make sure your clothes are clean
tall cloud
@shadow moss no, it is singaporean company
gilded valley
I have a shirt that I literally only ever wear for video calls/interviews
shadow moss
if proper, I'm terrible at Asian cultural norms
tall cloud
bro, i have no tie or suits lol, probably just gonna wear shirt. I mean, i dont have to show my pants right? just upper body half?
fringe plume
is it at least a shirt with buttons?
tall cloud
yes
fringe plume
ok good
shadow moss
this is basically a homework assignment, can you come up with script/take time to clean your back drop and make sure everything looks good
vapid jay
Is there somewhere in this discord server where i can look to hire python programmers?
gilded valley
this is basically a homework assignment, can you come up with script/take time to clean your back drop and make sure everything looks good
@shadow moss
Do you really think a script is best? For most of this stuff for most people I feel like having an idea of talking points but mostly winging it would be by far the best
reading from a script comes across as stilted for most people
shadow moss
if you can wing properly, sure
script is stilted to start as well until you read it a copy of time and it becomes more natural
ionic ocean
dont use "umm" a lot best interview advice i can ever give.
shadow moss
whole point of assignment I'm sure, did they take time to write a script AND practice enough with it so they didn't sound like a machine
shadow moss
umm
tall cloud
I have practicing the script for last hour lol
ionic ocean
agree i do it way to often, but for an interview i fight tooth and nail not to. if you need time to think say thats a good question, let me think for a second. then respond wiht a clear answer
gilded valley
whole point of assignment I'm sure, did they take time to write a script AND practice enough with it so they didn't sound like a machine
Hm - I definitely haven't ever read these kinds of things that way, but at the same time, I've never approached it from the company's perspective
ionic ocean
have you tried setting up homework? even if you dont check the work it will weed out a lot of them looking for an easy spot just having to do it
shadow moss
In one posting, I put at bottom saying "Please make a subject line a movie quote with movie attribution"
gilded valley
From someone applying to internships perspective, it's very fucking annoying having to put in 2 hours to fill out an application, write a cover letter, record a video, and do a coding test when it feels like it's never even gonna get to a human being
something like the movie quote thing is great because it implies a human will actually look at it
and goddamn aptitude tests which take 90 minutes doing shitty logic games only to get instarejected because you couldn't click on balloons fast enough
shadow moss
my original post had "Please put in subject line, Describe what Marcellus Wallacce look like"
HR said no
yea, Movie quote was easy
and I had like 60% of emails did't have it
it was so "WTF"
gilded valley
I mean - I've done mass applications before
you open 50 tabs, do the same application for all of them never even caring about specific jobs
it's pretty common for students to do
they just didn't read your ad too closely
ionic ocean
as someone who has hired for completely unrelated to this or anything that im sure will be talked about here. i can say that almost no one ever reads the work.
gilded valley
It's pretty difficult to do it for every single job as a student. You can do it for a select few that you really care about, but just firing off as many applications as possible does work
vapid jay
Anyone from the USA in Here?
gilded valley
yes
ionic ocean
yes
tall cloud
I am done lol, 57 seconds
It is uploading right now
Thank you everyone for your help
gilded valley
good luck with getting the job/interview/whatever
tall cloud
Thanks
shadow moss
Charlie, sure, on the reverse side, I'm buried under a pile of applications and trying to sort out all of them
so movie quote was one way
gilded valley
Yeah, it's a shitty problem from both sides - just giving my perspective on it
shadow moss
I had to push it down to 10
which I did with a computer
exported all names (please make sure your email puts professional name, xxxladykillerxxx got you tossed) and told computer to select 10
gilded valley
I sometimes hear the advice of "Don't just apply everywhere, put time and effort into just a few" - and your thing seems like a great illustration of why that's a bad idea
shadow moss
after phone interviews, we were left with 7 candidates, could only interview 4, thanks computer, one got knocked out in interview, left with 3, rolled a dice
I'm sure we tossed some great candidates
but how do I evaluate this partipated in X clubs, from this who participated in Y Clubs
also, I wanted to include some diversity in team, randomness took out biases
tall cloud
@gilded valley to applications I care about, I modified my CV. Others I don't care , i just apply with generic cv lol
For fresh graduate out there, i use https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/writing-a-killer-software-engineering-resume-b11c91ef699d/ format for my cv. It works pretty good so far
Of course i dont get to every application successful, but i do get to interview stage here and there
obsidian acorn
I would say that your first couple of jobs, are meant to be used as a step latter, to get you to the next step. Once you have the experiences, it is easier to have recruiters reaching out to you for positions. So, to get your foot in the door, for your first two years of experience, do make sure that your resume is up to part, but besides that, apply to as many as you can. And hopefully you land one
once you are there, you can for your next position, be more particular, and find something that you are actually passionate about
analog cypress
Not really career but: Anyone have experience volunteering to teach coding? Have any recommended volunteer organization? code.org looks good so far
Looking to give back in some way, esp. around NYC area
leaden jasper
When I was in the NYC area, people I knew volunteered with Women Who Code and liked it a lot (if that type of org applies to you). I also heard good things about Hacker Hours, but that mostly from a people attending seeking help perspective.
Volunteering with local hackathons, especially at universities or some of the tech high schools might be possible as well.
analog cypress
Thanks @leaden jasper I'll look at these
marsh wind
Hi, I'm a long time tech recruiter, so shoot if you have any career/interview/CV/portfolio related questions. :)
(I might ask you about pandas and web scraping related tips in exchange lol...)
@vapid jay just wondering, in which country?
wow this story feels quite crazy @shadow moss. I feels twice as luckly now, as more than once I applied using LinkedIn "Easy Apply" (for those who don't know it usually will require only your CV phone and perhaps very short message) where I saw 150 or 250+ application already and got to be interviewed actually
vapid jay
@vapid jay just wondering, in which country?
@marsh wind I'm based in Hungary, but recruited for the whole EMEA region (mostly Switzerland, UK, Germany and a bit in Israel, Luxemburg, Austria etc.)
marsh wind
oh cool, so not US 🙂
mint citrus
are you the guy who keeps sending me freelance jobs on linkedin?
if you are please stop
i dont want freelance jobs
marsh wind
same guy all the time? sounds annoying AF
mint citrus
yeah it is
its like 2 month jobs
where im just like no. I want a full time position not freelance jobs not to mention if you check my linkedin I dont even live there anymore
marsh wind
lol. I guess some people just have a very thick skin
mint citrus
or they dont check and its all automated
vapid jay
is ethical hacking in demand? can anyone link me any websites that i can get started?
vapid jay
or they dont check and its all automated
@mint citrus Most likely it is automated.
if you are please stop
@mint citrus Nope, that's not me. 🙂
oh cool, so not US 🙂
@marsh wind Unfortunately not. 🙂
marsh wind
@vapid jay why unfortunately? 🙂
I asked cause we have quite a lot people from Europe and nearby here, so having around a recruiter who knows about these markets is good
vapid jay
@vapid jay why unfortunately? 🙂
@marsh wind Well, I have an admiration for some US companies e.g. SpaceX & similar ones which are not present in the EU market.
marsh wind
I see, that makes sense 🙂
compact harbor
Hi, how likely would you say it is that programming will be taken over by AI?
To anyone
shadow moss
@marsh wind This was for internship
because obviously internship and Jr Dev positions just get FLOODED with applications
I've had numerous recruiters wish there was a small cost to apply for jobs
in hopes if it cost people a quarter or something, they just wouldn't throw 70 applications
it's clear the process is broken, there is just no easy fix for it
nniffo, completely taken over, maybe at some point but no time soon, coming soon is more of no code stuff where people can drag and drop code though edge cases make that difficult
AI assistance to let single developer spit out more code is coming though
if you have VSCode, you can install Intellicode which is AI Powered code completion
there is user data concerns with it though so read fine print
compact harbor
nniffo, completely taken over, maybe at some point but no time soon, coming soon is more of no code stuff where people can drag and drop code though edge cases make that difficult
@shadow moss Do you think If I choose CS as my career path, will it still be viable in the future?
shadow moss
most likely but it's hard to say
vapid jay
is ethical hacking in demand? can anyone link me any websites that i can get started?
willow aspen
@vapid jay can you "ethically hack"? I think over the coming years the Compsec sector may take a uptick so may be worth building a portfolio doing CSSIP etc
marsh wind
@marsh wind This was for internship
@shadow moss yeah I saw. But like you said for Jr positions it's a similar story.
shadow moss
Computer Security is "hot" right now but your best degree for most CyberSecurity positions is Writing Degree
because most Computer Security people just write policies and reports
marsh wind
Like I said, I've been applying to positions where I saw "200+ other applicants"
amber peak
setting a rainbow avatar on this channel means that python is for gay people?
fringe plume
big brain
mild zenith
@amber peak You can read the #announcements about it
vapid jay
Is there a term for accidentally hacked? I was trying to do X but a mold spore landed in my petri dish and exposed Y.
fringe plume
if the outcome was positive it's generally regarded as a happy accident 😛
fluid fern
how do you people who have college, part-time-job as a software developer, still have time to do your own things
i swaer i feel like im swimming in lava every day
sterile wave
one of the best ways to optimise your time is to sit down and actually figure out where it's all going
if that makes sense
even if you're really busy, there's probably quite a lot you can do to consolidate any free time you have
@amber peak please don't just write that question in every channel
amber peak
@amber peak please don't just write that question in every channel
i writted only in 2 chats
sterile wave
but why
i think we already established that python is for gay people and also all other people
vapid jay
- "Happy accident databreach" is going to go on my resume now I guess.
kindred pumice
For programming interviews, can you use any language or will they give you a list of (major) languages that you can pick out of? What if, say, you're good at PHP or Perl but those are less popular than Python, would you still be allowed to use that?
radiant moon
the interviews I participate in, we let the candidate choose their language
I would, however, be slightly wary of a candidate who chose PHP as their preferred language, because I'm a bigot.
kindred pumice
so you could do it in theoretically any language
like if some interviewer was a masochist and they went with brainf*ck
radiant moon
the interviewer -- i.e., me -- doesn't choose the language; the candidate does.
kindred pumice
interviewee*
radiant moon
but if the candidate chose brainf*ck, I'd politely say "I'm sorry, I don't know that language well enough to judge; can you choose another?"
heavy beacon
Hey Everyone, I realize this may be quite niche, but does anyone have any resources or tips on a career in Bioinformatics?
I'm looking to work in the field and was interesting in learning some useful skills!
shadow moss
RogueArt, Depends on the company, ours want to see C#/Java and other you will get filtered out if you have zero experience with either even for Jr. Developers
if you made it to interview and got out python/Rust/Go/JS, probably wouldn't be considered (we haven't had that happen)
wild wigeon
@shadow moss out of interest, does your company let candidates know that you expect them to use C#/Java?
upbeat ginkgo
hola amigo / amiga!
i emailed someone asking if they need someone to automate their work.
They were like "we don't have a role of that sort but i'd be interested in learning what you could do"
"before you send me your cv, could you tell me what you expect to do in your day-to-day stuff"
am i supposed to send my email now? or do i send it in the next email?
sterile wave
well they're not necessarily interested in going through the hiring process to the extent of getting your CV yet
seems like they want to judge what work they'd be hiring you for
wind magnet
hey, so I have a question in the machine learning/deep learning end
i'm just getting started with it, and was wondering if recruiters mostly care about the actual work, or if they want candidates with a deep understanding in regards to the underlying math
so far i'm having fun with scikitlearn and keras, but i know next to nothing about the math behind it
gilded valley
I think it depends a lot on the company and the position
you probably do want to be able to talk about the maths behind it somewhat. What's very important is understanding performance metrics and where/why they're relevant
wind magnet
hmm, would you mind explaining it further? for example, i know about the existence of things like loss functions and the surface layer of how it works, but i wouldn't be able to write out the equations if my life depended on it
Is the math stuff something you learn more as you progress?
gilded valley
Well, performance metrics is how you evaluate models. For classifiers, you have stuff like accuracy (the amount of correct results), and then precision or recall, which all tell you different things about how good/bad your classifier is. For regression, you have similar metrics (although I don't know what)
machine learning is very much not just NNs everywhere
wind magnet
ohhh, so something like confusion matrices
so the idea is to be able to make high performance models
thank you for the info!
marsh wind
they don't seem to care about math as in equations about how models work
fringe plume
I guess also kinda depends on how much you're expected to leverage existing frameworks vs actually developing them
cobalt acorn
How hard is it to land remote US work but reside in Canada? I have LinkedIn notifying US remote jobs across the entire country, and see very little that expand remote roles to include "US/Canada"
marsh wind
Indeed but much much fewer people would develop them compared to trhouse who use exisitng
prisma timber
@cobalt acorn I can't give you a specific answer, but I know obviously remote work is becoming much more common, however, I'm not sure the laws regarding remote work in another country and my international friends have trouble finding companies willing to sponsor a work visa.
cobalt acorn
@prisma timber thanks! Yeah it's really interesting as there's many Canadians who work for US companies but the process to getting the job is very vague
sweet ermine
does anyone here have a job that's relaxed and you don't feel constant nuclear pressure? not constantly sick to your stomach that a bug will pop up in the field?
wheat hatch
@sweet ermine No job is like that unless you learn to say No
shadow moss
@wild wigeon it’s at top of requirements, HR filters for it and it comes up in phone interview
So only way to make it that far would be lying.
@cobalt acorn do you have college degree?
cobalt acorn
@shadow moss university
shadow moss
Whatever
You have a four year degree in computer?
Or 3 whatever US equivalent of a Bachelor is?
If so, congrats, look into TN NAFTA visa.
vapid jay
isn't NAFTA like dead
cobalt acorn
@shadow moss Not comp sci, it's MIS
shadow moss
Choppy, google what I posted that’s how Canadians I work with ended up working in US
Few companies will hire fresh out of college remote Canadian for US company. If we were going to do that, might as well outsource to Somewhere cheaper then Canada
cobalt acorn
@shadow moss Should probably mention that i have 4yrs of experience, so have that as plus. So most Canadians you've worked with applied for a TN NAFTA themselves, instead of the company who hires them?
shadow moss
I know they did TN NAFTA, I'm not in office to ask our two Canadians how they ended up in US, both are now Green Card Holders
my knowledge of them is "I entered the US on TN NAFTA Visa, not sure if job was waiting for them or not, they moved to Green Card (Long Term Permanent resident)"
marsh wind
@atomic halo this is an English speaking server, please don't use any other languages. There are many non-Native English speakers her (I guess more than hafl even) so even if you English is not fluent no one here will blame you for that
inner wrenBOT
sterile wave
that's the one
marsh wind
@errant field ^^^^
vast shoal
@errant field As others have pointed out, we have a rule against recruitment on this server. Please see the topic of this channel for other venues that you can try.
errant field
My apologies.
vast shoal
No problem, thanks for understanding.
wicked bobcat
Hello everyone, I have a question about becoming a Data Scientist.
I will graduate in 2 years and I made some small projects like this:
I scraped numbeo.com, wrote all the results to a csv file, and then using pandas and matplotlib I visualised it. I have 48 more graphs like this. Do you think my skills are good enough for getting a part-time job?
How can I improve myself? Currently trying to learn ML. Do you have any advices?
gilded valley
well - just showing some generic seaborn graphs might not be enough. The end goal of data science from a business POV is usually something like "extracting knowledge from data", so you want the graphs, but you also want to demonstrate that you could use them the facilitate making some decision or something - usually ML is the easiest way to do that
visualisation is very important, but showing you understand the implications of the data matters a lot
shadow moss
I'd also consider learning some form of BI tool.
vapid jay
i didnt understand the x axis
you should write something there so person can understand better
sand sphinx
kindred pumice
I have a few people that are graduating in data science and I'm confused as to what they actually do. Are they basically just statisticians with a background in comp sci / can apply comp sci to data?
glossy pecan
data scientist is a really vague job title in general, most of them are statisticians/mathematicians with enough coding knowledge to write simple python/R scripts
weary trout
First, I read "Python for beginners" by Connor Milliken. At the end, he recommended some books which includes "Python for data analysis" by Wes McKinney, which I'm currently studying and on PG 634 (857 pages). I also have basic excel background knowledge and once I finish the book, I'll practice a little and considering learning ML using Python. But on the other side, I honestly don't know what to do next as I'm currently in the university and would finish October this year. Good advice would be appreciated.
summer roost
what are you interested in?
dry hedge
who
zealous trench
Hi all, I am new to learning programming and learnd some basics i guess, i need to make a project using python that automatically takes screenshot of screen every 10 sec and sends it to the could server. This project will help me get a job. any suggestions would be helpful.
summer roost
!rule 5
inner wrenBOT
summer roost
that's off topic for this channel, and sure sounds likely to violate rule 5, @zealous trench
zealous trench
I'm sorry but someone told me to post this here
patent mesa
!rule 10
inner wrenBOT
:x: Invalid rule indices: 10
patent mesa
!rule 6
inner wrenBOT
zealous trench
I'm sorry someone misguided me post this question here
vapid jay
@patent mesa please use #bot-commands for testing bot commands
sterile wave
i think they were trying to get the rule
misty glade
I need some advice. So here’s my situation. I heard from a YouTube video that a lot of the education and technology in computer science programs at certain schools are outdated. Plus I’m black and white. My stats are too low to get into a really good university. What should I do?
In the US
radiant moon
I'd just get a job, and the hell with University 🙂
summer roost
I need some advice. So here’s my situation. I heard from a YouTube video that a lot of the education and technology in computer science programs at certain schools are outdated.
@misty glade - you may want to look for schools that have cooperative education or internship partners. I went to a middle ranked school with a so-so Computer Science department, but it also required three 6-month internships (co-ops) over a 5 year degree. Internships teach you things that aren't covered in the classroom, give you a better idea of what you do and don't find interesting and want to focus on, and give you some money to offset the cost of school. That's a US perspective, though - perhaps in other countries paid internships are less of a thing, or it's easier to break into the industry without schooling.
You may also be able to find a school with a Software Engineering program, as opposed to Computer Science - those focus less on the theory of computing, data structures, and algorithms, and more on software architecture and software engineering practices.
mint citrus
the concepts are not outdated
and are probably more low level that what you usually would write but it also depends on the job you take
if you take a web dev job, most likely you wont use linked-list and vectors and all that good stuff
but the concepts will still be the same
summer roost
You won't use them directly, but you'll often need to know about them. Knowing that Python's list type is a dynamic array rather than a linked list is important when writing code that needs to scale.
ionic ocean
Question, as someone who's trying to learn python on my own, and would love a jr dev position. What would you say is the required minimum for someone to be able to get a position as a jr dev. Preferably for data analysis but anything works
misty glade
Ik I far from ever having a job in anything but is there anyone here that's a quant dev?
stable cipher
to hire a JR dev I don't look for much other than willingness to learn, a successful track record either in college or for personal projects, and a good interview
ionic ocean
@stable cipher heh are you hiring then? Lol I'm still fairly new to this but im happy with what I have done. And more then willing to learn I have a 5 month of son and I need to make sure I can take care of him and his mom
stable cipher
Not right now, sorry- also just FYI soliciting jobs or offers isn't allowed here
summer roost
That's pretty much the same criteria my company would use for a junior dev.
stable cipher
but when I will be hiring, it'll be for a sr dev based on the needs of the company I'm working at now
ionic ocean
Apologies about the actually asking but that's where I'm wanting to go right now. Just I want to feel confident when I actually start applying for jobs as a jr dev.
summer roost
Without any formal schooling, you'll want something that proves that you have some skills. Personal projects, bootcamp certificates, good performance on aptitude tests or pre-screens or during the interview, etc.
ionic ocean
That's what I had expected. I'm trying to get my first few projects to be a little bit more involved then the standard hello world. And then I plan on trying to get a certificate (for nothing else then to say I am doing what I can) that says I understand basic python.
carmine peak
does Computer Science APs and majors actually teach you what you need to get a career in programming? I'm just wondering.
summer roost
Try learning a bit of Javascript as well. If you can get two languages under your belt and keep them straight, that will be helpful - and JS (or typescript) is a useful language to know.
ionic ocean
Roger that. I haven't looked at anything Java script but I assume it's "harder" then python?
stable cipher
it's different
summer roost
@carmine peak Fresh college graduates have weaknesses - they learn a lot of theory, but not a lot of practice - so they're weak in teamwork, version control, project management, designing code for maintainability, and so on. But, on the flip side, companies have been hiring college graduates for a long time. Lots of larger companies are well set up to mentor people with those particular weaknesses into productive developers. They're not always as well set up to train people who may have more of the software development background, but less of the theory background.
stable cipher
it runs in a different context (the browser) than any other language, and it has quirks and patterns to match that
summer roost
A lot of junior devs will be working on a website, and it's helpful to know a language commonly used on the server-side (Python, Java, Ruby, etc) and one commonly used on the client-side (JavaScript, TypeScript)
carmine peak
@summer roost Alright, thanks. I've done some projects myself, though im a very beginner Python programmer. I plan to get into C++ before college once I get a good grasp on python as well, do I need to take tests to help me get a job? (Like I heard about this thing called the Linux+, im pretty familiar with Linux but is it required?)
ionic ocean
Ok so learn enough about Java to be able to at least discuss it and have an idea if its totally wrong. And I should be ok, I can do that. Thank you guys
summer roost
javascript, not java.
two entirely different languages that happen to have similar names mostly due to an accident of history.
@carmine peak AP tests can help you test out of college courses, which can let you finish earlier, or spend more time learning more advanced stuff. That can be nice.
carmine peak
@summer roost Alright. But what I'm wondering the most is if College and AP education is enough, or if I should take extra classes? Basically: Does College and AP classes make me competent enough to work efficiently in the workspace in the programming scene?
mint citrus
linux+? the hell is that?
summer roost
(I've also never heard of "Linux+") College and AP education is absolutely enough to get you an entry level job; it's the default way to get an entry level job.
misty condor
Linux+ is a certification offered by CompTIA
misty condor
Mostly used to pad your resume to get into entry-level positions.
carmine peak
Apparently it's hard, as well.
misty condor
Linux+? Haven't studied for it but it can't be that difficult.
mint citrus
what they expect you to know?
carmine peak
I don't really know much about it either, it's just what I heard from other people who took it
misty condor
General Linux stuff. If you've used it and study their objectives list, you'll do fine.
mint citrus
huh.
summer roost
Regardless of any Linux certification, expect to be asked questions about it on an interview. The cert might help, but just learning that same material will work nearly as well.
mint citrus
I find sed difficult cause im used to normal regexp 😦
linux is def a learning curve tho
misty condor
Definitely, but just using it is a learning experience.
That's what's wonderful about IT careers, just messing around is learning.
mint citrus
^
misty condor
(And a lot of other things in life honestly)
Me bang rock together
Knowledge up
After playing around with it in a VM, I just installed it on my PC and now I use it daily.
It's been the best learning experience for me.
mint citrus
I want to use linux daily but... dumb iOS apps I have to build 
misty condor
Yeah, had to give up on some games, but a surprising amount still works.
It's worth it to have a VM handy if you really want to learn.
mint citrus
im already proficient in linux. im basically using it everyday for server stuff
but yeah you really learn once you use it constantly
summer roost
Learning any other Unix is just as good as learning Linux for a developer job. If you use the terminal on OS X, it's not hugely different from using the terminal on Linux.
mint citrus
when I first started out I just install ubuntu server on an old desktop and learned that way
carmine peak
Kali Linux is actually a pretty fun Linux OS in my opinion, it comes outfitted with a lot of tools i'm interested in
misty condor
Trying to get into pentesting?
mint citrus
I just did basic pentesting at my current job
carmine peak
It's just a hobby, but I think I would do better programming instead.
mint citrus
kali linux on my raspberry pi.
misty condor
Well do you have eyes on all your systems at least?
mint citrus
pffft
I did a dump of their database for a whole week
no one noticed the DDOS or the fact that I dumped half their shit
misty condor
Ah excellent...
carmine peak
I have one more thing to ask before I go - is Googling a command in Python or a "how to" tutorial when trying to make a software or just when you forget, a bad thing?
misty condor
Never
mint citrus
I had to pursuade my boss to understand how bad this is
took a whole month and me sending emails from other people through an open port
misty condor
@carmine peak Always look things up. Always seek knowledge.
Using Google does not make you a bad programmer.
carmine peak
@mint citrus Same with my school. Some kid took down the site by spamming it with requests and he thinks he's a top tier hacker
mint citrus
was trying to scare her into realizing how bad this is
carmine peak
@misty condor great!
misty condor
Developers of the olden times would have killed for the resources we have now.
mint citrus
lol tell me about it
misty condor
It's blasphemy to not use them. Only to humble oneself I would suppose
carmine peak
Also, I'm taking beginner courses in Python on LinkedIn. I forget 90% of what I learn in under a week - is there any way to prevent this or is that just how it is
misty condor
Take notes
summer roost
write more programs, read more code.
misty condor
Write down the stuff that seems important and use the knowledge that you learn at least once.
mint citrus
go outside of what linkedin teaches you
carmine peak
@mint citrus That's what I usually do - I tried to make a calculator program (basic, I know) and it worked good with the stuff I learned, except I could have made it much more simpler with fewer lines of code
but it felt good to exercise what I learned and to create something with it
mint citrus
like these students I have to interview fresh out of college. I dont understand why they pursue the career if they are clearly not into it. like they do nothing extra. all they have is the hw from their teachers for show
10/10 will not hire
so go the extra mile so you stand out
yeah thats the way to do it @carmine peak
misty condor
Also if you learn something and just forgot some of the finer details, that's fine. As long as you understand the concept, you can grasp the smaller pieces quickly.
mint citrus
^
if you can explain what you are doing, thats good enough
I remember at one interview I did something and some syntax was wrong but the idea was right.
misty condor
Nobody will get mad if you forget the parameters to range() as long as you can explain the idea.
summer roost
well, and remembering that something exists is enough to let you look it up later. You may not remember the exact syntax for something, but you may have learned what to google the next time you need it, which is nearly as good.
mint citrus
people just wanna know how you think
and if you have the capacity to think through problems yourself
misty condor
Enthusiasm is worth more than raw intelligence most of the time as well.
A genius that can't work as part of a team isn't very useful as someone that can be easily moulded.
mint citrus
that too. if some one it enthusiastic about something, they are more likely to seek better ways to do something and learn faster
that too
misty condor
I hired on a guy that didn't grasp most of the concepts on our team and I was worried he'd be the slowest, but he had the passion. Now he's the best guy on the job.
carmine peak
I would say I'm a pretty open learner, however the sheer amount of things I have to remember just intimidates me (and I'm only very beginner as well....)
misty condor
You're not going to remember everything. Just know where to look and you'll do fine.
The fact that you're trying speaks volumes
Asking questions, admitting fault, and acknowledging your weak areas are all good traits to have as a student.
mint citrus
has no weak areas
misty condor
But not me of course, I'm perfect because I'm not a student anymore.
carmine peak
I currently do all my programming in spurts for some reason, I do 10 lessons a week and then just take a break for 2 weeks
mint citrus
try to not take a 2 week break
carmine peak
It's wacky but I have to do a lot of other stuff as well so I just seize the moment if I have the time to learn something
mint citrus
I know I feel like I forgot how to code when I take a 1 week vacation
try to spread it more evenly so you are doing something every week
carmine peak
@mint citrus I don't think I touched python in like a month now, mainly because of family and personal problems, pandemic got me f'ed up
misty condor
Have a set schedule where you dedicate time to different activities if you're having trouble keeping on top of it.
mint citrus
^
misty condor
Also true, pandemic got us all in a tizzy. Valid excuse
misty condor
Haha, same here.
mint citrus
I have like 5 interviews on hold due to covid
carmine peak
Python and Programming IS something i'm interested in but I honestly just can't keep up, doesn't help that im not even in high school yet, but im close
summer roost
that's... weird. My company is interviewing despite covid; I know many others are as well.
mint citrus
if you aint in highschool yet what you doing son?
got enjoy your highschool life
get drunk
carmine peak
I'm trying to prepare for what's to come in the real world
misty condor
Yeah dude, if you're in middle school just enjoy life.
carmine peak
I assume i wont lol
mint citrus
idk kids these days
misty condor
If you want to learn in spurts, that's just getting a great headstart on your high school education.
I assumed you were in college lmao
mint citrus
poisoning themselves with tide pods 
carmine peak
wasn't that 2-3 years ago?
mint citrus
i dont keep up with whats hip anymore
summer roost
that's gotta be like 7 years ago...
mint citrus
not to mention its different in each country
carmine peak
nothing except not getting coronavirus
mint citrus
i lived outside the US for 6 or 7 years now. i get the news really slow now
summer roost
I just looked it up, dear god it was only 2.5 years ago. It feels like a lifetime ago.
mint citrus
lol same
carmine peak
I mean a lot of people are trying to pursue the programming job these days, I just want to be competent and make enough money to feed myself, so that's why I started learning so early
mint citrus
I remember we had that choke game during highschool
where you choke yourself until you pass out
boi that was dumb
@carmine peak you can make enough money flipping burgers if you try hard enough
carmine peak
That's the very last thing I want
mint citrus
friend of mine basically did that. idk how he managed man but he flipping burgers all day
he has his own business now of course
you do what you gotta do man
but dont do programming just for the money
carmine peak
Well, thank you all for your advice. I gotta go
mint citrus
peace
misty condor
Have fun
mint citrus
have fun learning
carmine peak
@mint citrus can't be enthusiastic if you get 2 cents an hr
patent mesa
!bot commands
manic fiber
bruh
vapid jay
Hey guys, what python programs do interviewers like to see on your portfolio? 🙂 I need some guidance on what to show.
mint citrus
the best ones you have
there is no formula to say you need this project on your resume
vapid jay
What do they like to see though? Like I have a lot of different programs
I just don't know what to show 😦
sterile wave
@carmine peak don't listen to the people literally telling you to not try to learn programming because you shouldn't aspire to anything more than just not dying of hunger
but yeah at the same time don't stress too much about getting loads of useful skills at your age
limber rampart
@vapid jay Try to pick out those that are the most relevant to the position you are applying for, or the skills that the employer is looking for
for example, if you know that the position involves the use of postgres, showing a project where you demonstrate previous experience with it will be valuable
vivid sparrow
job application question on indeed asks "How many years of web developer experience do you have?" What is the correct answer if you have been learning for over 3 years but haven't worked in the industry?
gilded valley
0
vivid sparrow
Ok. Thanks.
gilded valley
I'm curious as to why you're asking. Sounds like a homework question
marsh wind
google-able question... Which is too broad really: software engineers write code/develop applications, whatever you call that
marsh wind
@agile ridge
obsidian acorn
@agile ridge there are many different kinds of software engineers. Software engineers broadens to include, but not limited to :
- software engineers, who build softwares, in java, python, etc.
- there are data engineers, who use programming language to deal with data (not to be confused with data science)
- QA Engineers who write test codes, or test softwares,
- Front-End and Back-End engineers, in software development,
And so forth, and so on.
but in all those definitions, as @marsh wind mentioned, they use some type of programming language, and resolve some type of business requirements.
agile ridge
Ok thank you
sterile wave
👍 good to hear!
vast shoal
@slate wren Fantastic news. It was clearly your own efforts that made this happen, but if we were able to contribute in any way, that's a good feeling. Great to hear that you're feeling better.
slate wren
Thank you for your kind words. I hope to give back and help those learning to code too. And I also hope that my app can prove a more useful tool to help fix this economy as I apply additional imporvements
misty glade
How can I differentiate myself from the thousands of other developers?
white karma
That’s a really difficult question to answer
You just gotta do your best and maybe contribute to open source projects
obsidian acorn
@misty glade in terms of your resume/profile, or in terms of interviews?
modest arch
@obsidian acorn both
vapid jay
I'm currently 17 and planning to study abroad - to make ends meet I'm picking up new programming languages. Are there job oppertunities within web dev using Django or should I learn JS?
modest arch
@vapid jay wow. I'm also 17. But I'm not planning to study abroad. I'm also looking for a remote job/internship 🤓
vapid jay
Oh, a fellow student!
vapid jay
17 squad assemble
sterile wave
@vapid jay there will be a job opportunity for many combinations of languages, but if you know frontend and backend you're much more likely to be useful
signal spruce
lmao
signal spruce
eyy
vapid jay
Really cool xd, we're all prime numbers!
Can Python be used for fullstack?
Or is it just back-end? I am already quite fluent in Java, so back-end is no problem. My brain doesn't want to learn JS though
signal spruce
sheesh u guys are way ahead of me
vapid jay
you get ahead when you're poor but want to work for NASA 🙂