career-advice

[white karma]

That sucks

[sleek field]

Well my main experience is in web-based applications like web scrapers and stuff in python

Mostly automation

[eager tree]

No ones going to pay for a web scraper

There are 1000s

[sleek field]

Ik

[eager tree]

Also isn’t all coding automation

[white karma]

What will someone pay for?

[sleek field]

I’m stating what I have experience in

[eager tree]

Yeah fair

[sleek field]

Not what I think people will pay for

[eager tree]

Yea

Do you have github? @sleek field

[sleek field]

I do

[vapid jay]

Hi I'm trying to decide between these two career choices: data science or web developer. Which is easier to learn in 3 months?

[eager tree]

Cool

3 months?!

That’s a big ask

[sleek field]

3 months to learn an entire career 🤔

[eager tree]

Do you have experience already?

[vapid jay]

I have a lot of time, I literally do nothing all day

[white karma]

Challenge accepted

[vapid jay]

I'm graduating from uni in May with bachelors

[eager tree]

@vapid jay are you already extremely proficient in python

What’s your degree in?

[vapid jay]

Also I have zero coding experience

[eager tree]

Uhhhhh

[vapid jay]

Emergency management/Sociology @eager tree

[sleek field]

Neither of them 😂

Web-development is a lot more beginner friendly than data science from my experience but

[eager tree]

Are you good at maths?

[vapid jay]

Web development is basically just making websites right?

[eager tree]

There’s a lot more to it

[sleek field]

Yeah

[vapid jay]

I HATE math except for stats which I know Data science is mainly comprised of lol

[eager tree]

@vapid jay if you’re good at maths and statistics you should be alright

[sleek field]

Yeah maybe CS isn’t for you...

[eager tree]

You hate math... but wanna do data science...

[sleek field]

There’s a lot of maths in basically every part of CS and software

[eager tree]

I don’t really think it’s for you

Yea

CS relies heavily on maths

[vapid jay]

I mean I hate it but it doesn't mean I won't learn it. It's just calc stuff I dont like

[eager tree]

Also generally, not to assume things, but people who say they hate maths have a particular mindset which isn’t great for CS

[white karma]

So if 3 months is too much too fast, would 8 months be more reasonable?

[sleek field]

My suggestion would be to look at career paths in emergency management and sociology

[eager tree]

@vapid jay there’s a lot of calc in data science

There are loads of differential equations

And if that doesn’t give you a raging maths boner, maybe reconsider

[sleek field]

Anyway you asked if I had a github?

Yes I do

[eager tree]

Yeah I was just wondering

[vapid jay]

I'd like a career in robotics. I love programming (obvs) and physics. but how do i do it?

[torpid bolt]

@vapid jay robotics is wide ranging, people usually think of what boston dynamics does, but a lot is more like car assembly factories

[vapid jay]

i love the work of BD

[torpid bolt]

heh, yeah, that's quite impressive

Anyway that's one place where you want some understanding of electrical engineering, as well as real time programming, probably matrix math or quaternions (imagine an arm with multiple joins, how do you compute the position of the ”hand”?)

Playing with arduino systems and various kind of motors/actuators, can give you a feeling of how it is, and some basic experience.

[vapid jay]

I've done matrix calculations at school.

And physics has always been a thing for me.

[torpid bolt]

Nice :)

Also you might want to check for hacker spaces in your area, good place to network with people interested or even in the industry

[vapid jay]

Thnx i'll give it a shot.

may the ma be with you

[gritty owl]

Hello,
I am working as a DevOps professional since past one and a half year and having total experience of 5 years. During my tenure, I came to do scrpting using Python which I learned on the go. I am still at begainer level but realizing that I love to code. I generally love things which involves logic and technicalities and thus belive I Python is what I was lacking to enjoy the stuffs I do.

Recently, I have started to focus more on learning Python using Google and creating scripts on my local machine. I am looking to move to the Data Science from DevOps. Any suggestions on this? And where to begin with for that?

[runic creek]

@gritty owl What is DevOps

[small pier]

.

[gritty owl]

DevOps basically includes creating build pipe lines, automatic deployment and management of infrastructure components on cloud, automation, etc.

[brisk anvil]

ah

[glass breach]

Hallo everyone

I read above and I wasn't able to help constructively with any of the existing topics so apologies for only adding to the list but:

Have a BSc in maths and physics, love both, currently work in IT. Would like a job that is heavy on planning and calculation, low on presentations and social management. Am currently interested in backend development and electronics, but would like some general direction on what to consider and what to start with.

Any suggestions appreciated

[zealous ridge]

Would like a job that is heavy on planning and calculation, low on presentations and social management.

@glass breach are you looking for a data science position, or an SWE position, or...?

Am currently interested in backend development and electronics
If you just want to be a backend developer, there are tons of great tech companies and startups where you'd do just that without much of the stuff you dislike.

Combining that with electronics is a bit unusual. There are positions like that in specific companies that do hardware.

Sysadmin / devops possibly.

@sturdy axle I'm not an expert on bootcamps, but IIRC quite a few of them last less than 8-9 months and you do get a shot at a dev job after that.

[ancient wave]

Hey guys I'm trying to learn python

Recommendations are welcome

Open classes I can take are also welcome

Please advise me

Accordingly

[sturdy axle]

@zealous ridge DevOps is Dev + Ops

That’s a job for people with years of exp

Disregarding the “culture” aspect of DevOps

[zealous ridge]

@sturdy axle you asked for something you can get into quicker than full-time dev. DevOp is that.

I do know what DevOps stands for 🙂

[blazing lake]

Hi guys, I'm currently a Bioinformatics student and I've implemented very simple programs like linear and logistic regression, K Nearest neighbors, K means clustering, stuff like that and I've really enjoyed it. But the thing is, I know nobody is ever going to implement stuff like this in real life since we have libraries like sklearn, so if I enjoy this stuff does that mean I'll actually like or be suited for a career as a developer?

Because this all seems a little "disconnected" from real life coding

[zealous ridge]

@sturdy axle also if you're implying that devops generally have more experience or knowledge than a typical full-time dev, then that is absolutely not true.

@blazing lake you apparently enjoy implementing simple algorithms. Some jobs are a bit more similar to that. It depends on how good you are.

[sturdy axle]

@zealous ridge wait what......?

So you don’t need all that exp like people say?

[zealous ridge]

@blazing lake If you're absolutely amazing at algorithmic programming, there are jobs in systems programming that have a bunch of that.

@sturdy axle devop has entry-level and junior positions as well, just like SWEs. Except there's less demand and they're easier to get into.

[blazing lake]

@zealous ridge Is there something that I can try that will give me a taste of what it's like to be developer? Like some sort of coding problem or something like that in python, like something a little more practical

[zealous ridge]

@blazing lake yes: contribute to a FOSS project.

[blazing lake]

Time to google what that is

[zealous ridge]

You are correct that implementing one simple algo like KNN is not what devs do on a regular basis.

FOSS is Free / Open Source Software.

I.E. you want to contribute to an Open Source project. That also looks great on the resume.

[blazing lake]

Okay, thanks, I'm going to look into open source projects

[sterile vault]

If you're bioinformatics student, I think BioPython library is open source and may have some open issues

[zealous ridge]

Practically all FOSS projects will have open issues.

[sterile vault]

Damn, waiting for feedback for test tasks pulls on my nerves hard.

[gilded valley]

Whats the job?

[sterile vault]

Did it a week ago, waited for a week, asked and apparently they liked it, but their boss will be able to look at it only next week.

Analyst, IT + healthcare

[gilded valley]

What sort of tasks was it?

[sterile vault]

Oncology-related, mostly "find the mechanism of drug X", "what mutations give better odds for drug Y", "What drugs for target Z are FDA approved". Coding task was simply process a couple of Excel tables (i just did it with dumb Python script).

On one hand, it's not hardcore IT (i have no CS background), on the other hand I will be able to grow into more IT-heavy roles, maybe even some ML projects (when I'll learn how to do it, lol)

The fact that entire job market folds like a house of cards doesn't help, I'm not even sure they will actually have an opening later.

At least healthcare has a bit better job security that, say, entertaiment right now.

[gilded valley]

Yeah thats true

I'm sure you'll do well in the tasks - so good luck

[marsh wind]

I think also will depend on how are companies budget structured and what influence the hiring

like if they had defined budget for this year dedicated to hire some people they probably will. But if they depend on clients that pay the company and etc.. those might be in bigger trouble

probably small or poorly funded start-ups will be in the worst situation if they are not healthcare related

[sterile vault]

Thanks!

I think they have some budget, since they have plenty of openings and even an internship. They are small, but they are cutting cost by hiring cheap foreign labor (me) instead of local American devs and doctors.

[hardy briar]

hey guys, anybody here works as freelancer?

[gusty stump]

is there anyone that can proofread a part of my CV 🙂 its just a paragraph and want to make sure its fine before i submit it

[hardy briar]

freelancer anyone?

[vapid jay]

partially

[hardy briar]

could you give me any tips? :x

[vapid jay]

well, tell me what your situation is and what the concret options are

[hardy briar]

well, i'm 23, started studying python september/19, i'm on foreign trade course at university but i want to work with programmng

i made an ibm course of data science

and i'm studying a lot

[vapid jay]

what do you want to offer? web dev with python backend?

[hardy briar]

backend primarily

but i want to learn web dev

in the future

[vapid jay]

ok. have you worked with Django and/or flask?

[hardy briar]

i tried to learn it

but i was just starting python

nothing made sense

then i started making little games

last one i created is a strategy space game

[vapid jay]

with what framework?

[hardy briar]

nono

all backend

shell

[vapid jay]

ah

[hardy briar]

i didnt made any site

but i know html and css

idk the backend

of django and flask

i preffer to work with django

[vapid jay]

I think you should learn Django really well

and create a project for yourself first

But it should be a real use-case

something you are interested in

and you should really deploy it on an actual server

Then you can build up a portfolio with these kinds of projects

[hardy briar]

oh

got it

i want to learn with something finance related

any ideas

i have a good background on economics and stocks

[vapid jay]

classical finance or crypto currencies?

[hardy briar]

classical

and my area has lots of problems

i mean, my region

its very strong on foreign trade

second biggest port of cargo in brazil

but we have bad technology related to id

it

i want to make an SaaS at somepoint

but idk what

[vapid jay]

ok, I don't know much about foreign trade. Is there any kind of value you could provide with a Django website built around a foreign trade use-case?

[hardy briar]

yes i guess, but idk what

hahaha

something to make easier the work of the trading companies

maybe

but, first i need to learn django

[vapid jay]

well you can combine it

[hardy briar]

do you have any tips? soe easy project i could do it

[vapid jay]

its always easier to learn project-based

and you will learn much more

[hardy briar]

yes, i saw that making my little game

i learned classes and uses of classes making games

class inheritance

that kind of thing

i want to learn something that i can make little jobs u know

like webscrapping

but idk how the freelancing works

never made it

[vapid jay]

well, to be honest you need the skills first

You should build your skills and a strong portfolio now

and you can think about freelancing in 6 to 12 months

[hardy briar]

alright

do you work in what area?

[vapid jay]

the one thing you can do to improve your future status of a freelancer is to make the projects really good

[hardy briar]

developing what kind of things

[vapid jay]

backend and security

[hardy briar]

oh, thats cool

[vapid jay]

ok, then good luck and have fun.

[hardy briar]

any suggestion on materials or youtubers or courses

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[hardy briar]

wow

that's really cool

thank you

[open patio]

corey schafer has a very good django tutorial series

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-osiE80TeTtoQCKZ03TU5fNfx2UY6U4p

[heavy sequoia]

Hey guys, I'm new and I think I need some serious advice

so basically, I learned python basics and I'm pretty comfortable writing automating programs. How do I start building a good portfolio so that I can use it to apply for a job as a developer?

[honest violet]

What area do you want to go into?

[heavy sequoia]

software development

I'm a medical student though. so machine learning might be more relative to my field? I'm not sure. medical education takes 7 years in my country so I need a fast way to earn some dollars before finishing my education. I thought software development was a good choice.

I also really love automating stuff. It's been so much fun working with regexes to organize my archives

I'm really lost here. I'd be really happy if someone would guide me in the right direction.

[glass breach]

Hi @zealous ridge thanks for your help earlier. I would be ok with Data Sci if there were less presentations/meetings involved. Remote SWE seems closer to what I'm after but I've heard about Scrum and would love to avoid that if possible, though IDK how prevalent it is.

[zenith inlet]

@heavy sequoia imo there might be research labs that need software experience for automating stuff

[tawny quartz]

@quasi marlin This isn't the place for recruitment, please read the channel description

[charred summit]

@heavy sequoia can't guide you but here is a good read:
https://careerfoundry.com/en/blog/web-development/freelance-web-developer/

although you might not go into web dev road but this read is about building your portfolio

[gritty owl]

Hello,
I am working as a DevOps professional since past one and a half year and having total experience of 5 years. During my tenure, I came to do scrpting using Python which I learned on the go. I am still at begainer level but realizing that I love to code. I generally love things which involves logic and technicalities and thus belive I Python is what I was lacking to enjoy the stuffs I do.

Recently, I have started to focus more on learning Python using Google and creating scripts on my local machine. I am looking to move to the Data Science from DevOps. Any suggestions on this? And where to begin with for that?

[last breach]

Hey guys! I'm pretty new over here, and in world of Python. I'm working in other branch at the moment but I want to switch careers for IT. I've done 35h course with app building, with different libaries for ex. numpy, pandas, OpenCV, graphs with bokeh, some flask and tkinter. I feel pretty good with Python syntax though I'm not sure what to do next. I'd like to work as backend (and I'm not into developing web sites). Can you guys give me some tips what technologies, frameworks I should apprehend and how to get more "fluent" with python language?

[nocturne snow]

Not exactly an answer to your question in regards to frameworks

but I can recommend trying something like codewars challenges in order to understand how to solve problems and write both smart and cleaner code 🙂

that's a website by the way, codewars.com

Apart from that, I really suggest trying to figure out what you want to do before figuring out what frameworks/libraries etc etc you want to use

Tools need to serve the job at hand, not the other way around.

E.g. if you want to become more fluent at messing around with data, you could try to learn how to use Pandas and Numpy efficiently, how to setup a basic environment for data science projects etc.

By the way, just got accepted for fall 2020 MSc Analytics at UChicago, mega hyped woohoo! Lovely to be able to share this stuff to strangers.

[last breach]

Thank you for the answer 😉 Codewars look fun so I will start with this 😉 Problem is that iT is such a big area that is hard to stick with one thing 😄 Grats on your Uni acceptance!

[radiant moon]

@last breach AWS would be useful. DynamoDB e.g.

[zealous ridge]

@glass breach I'm not sure why you'd assume there will be lots of "pretentious meetings" involved in DataSci work...? 🙂

[radiant moon]

presentations not pretentious although there's the risk of that too 🙂

[zealous ridge]

Oh, right. Anyway, yeah, there will be some presentations if you're doing data science. For some value of "presentations". You have to communicate.

That's true for SWE work too.

[radiant moon]

yep, meetings are the bane of my work-life

[zealous ridge]

I guess maybe a bit more so if you're a data scientist since often you'll have to explain your findings.

And not just through code.

[last breach]

@radiant moon thanks, I'll check them out

[radiant moon]

I'm prejudiced because I use that stuff all day long at my job

still it seems useful

[gusty sequoia]

is there any discord for leetcoders?

[vapid jay]

@gusty sequoia "leetcoders"?

[vapid jay]

what

[charred summit]

Leetcode don't have any channel @gusty sequoia

[vapid jay]

what are leetcoders

[gusty sequoia]

not anything specific for coding but had is any one interested in 30 days challenge on leetcode

[vapid jay]

so coders who digest memes instead of coffee?

[gusty sequoia]

you're goddamn right

[vapid jay]

I think leetcoders is a plugin thing for MCPE back then

[vapid jay]

What do programmers actually do? Is it fun?

[eager tree]

look at stackoverflow and cry

[vapid jay]

@vapid jay they make computers do the things that you want\expect computers to do.

[radiant moon]

@vapid jay meetings, deployments, more meetings, occasionally writing reports, meetings

once in a while we write code

[vapid jay]

@radiant moon you write code? 🤔

[radiant moon]

very little of that is fun. Apparently I'm not as happy with my job as I'd thought I was

@vapid jay about two hours per week, it seems 😐

[vapid jay]

but I think programmers in general are somewhat happy with their profession?

[radiant moon]

shrug

I can't think of anyone I've worked with who retired or switched professions entirely, so I guess that's a data point

[gilded valley]

@vapid jay Stackoverflow says yes to that

as in their survey

not some random post

[vapid jay]

yeah

as for "is it fun" - it can be fun or it can be very not fun. the programming task itself usually is actually fun if the circumstances allow for it to happen. if they don't, it's painful.

[rare sand]

some of us write code 40 hours a week. just saying.

[radiant moon]

@rare sand what's your job title -- SDE?

[rare sand]

software engineer

I don't know what SDE is

[radiant moon]

"Software Design Engineer" -- what you are

where I work, we developers do almost everything -- requirements gathering, specs, docs, code, infrastructure, deployment, operations

I think that's what they call "dev-ops"

[rare sand]

yeah, that's how it was the last place I worked

I do a few devops tasks here too, but for the most part I just write application code.

and my tasks come in fully specced.

[radiant moon]

gosh

so alien 🙂

(All my previous SDE jobs were like yours)

[burnt tiger]

yeah Amazon uses SDE (software development engineer) as their software engineer title, but they basically all mean the same thing

The day-to-day work varies more based on the dev team and company/department culture than the title, at least from what I've seen.

[radiant moon]

I can believe that

big company

[burnt tiger]

I had an interview process with Amazon recently, didn't end up working out though. But probably for the best, considering their notoriously bad work-life balance

I enjoy programming, but 60 hour work weeks don't sound overly appealing to me; regardless of the job

(even if the pay is 6 figures, still not worth it IMO)

[torpid bolt]

didn't they improve from all the bad reports they got years ago?

i would expect it to have been a wake up call

i mean, for engineers, i'm sure it still sucks for the people who move boxes

[burnt tiger]

Hard to say, I've heard a lot of mixed info. I'm sure some people excel in that kind of environment though

I only know a couple of SDE's that work or have worked for Amazon, but both have privately said the environment was pretty cut-throat and definitely not laid back. The main benefit is the pay, they get massive bonuses and have a very high base salary. It's also amazing for resume building purposes. Ex-Amazon software engineers are highly in demand.

Another factor to consider is that they're very Java-heavy. I don't consider that a significant downside though since the same could be said about a lot of large companies.

[torpid bolt]

ok

cut throat is not nice, even for a lot of money

[white karma]

Amazon as a whole doesn’t seem like a good company to work for, even if the pedigree looks good on your resume

[burnt tiger]

I think it could be decent for someone highly ambitious and really looking to prove themselves. But yeah, I'm sure there's an ethical PoV to consider as well.

[marsh wind]

But 60h a week is pretty crazy

Especially if you have family and don't just live alone

[ancient sluice]

Like all companies, there are good and bad teams to work for in Amazon.

The difficult thing about working for a company like that is not necessarily that you're working 60h weeks, but that the difficulty of the problems you work on demand that you can't stop thinking about work all the time. In most cases, work has to be your life.

But the comp is very good, https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Amazon,Google,Facebook,Microsoft&track=Software Engineer

[charred summit]

60h a week isn't much since my days are 30h, I spend 20h straight learning, taking notes and coding and I assume Amazon only hires senior devs? @burnt tiger

[marsh wind]

@charred summit afaik there are no companies that hire only seniors

[shut geyser]

my days are 30h

hmm

teach me

[marsh wind]

😂 Me too

[shut geyser]

i signed my contract btw

starting in may 😄

[rare sand]

funny time to be signing contracts

[shut geyser]

dunno how

[rare sand]

consider yourself lucky

[shut geyser]

yeaaaah

i was stressing so much

[rare sand]

not a lot of companies hiring right now

[shut geyser]

they gave me the offer just before lockdowns

[rare sand]

mm, I see

[shut geyser]

i will start remote probably

[rare sand]

hope you enjoy it, congratulations

[shut geyser]

hope so, first python job!

[rare sand]

niiiice.

[shut geyser]

i'm escaping VBA/Business Object/SAS hell

[vast shoal]

I guess software may be one of the few industries where it would make sense to continue operations as normal.

[shut geyser]

i'm so happy :'c

dunno, tech is first to tank when markets get lower

[rare sand]

start-ups and scale-ups are having big trouble

many have frozen all hiring

because they can't find investors

and some of them absolutely depend on investors

[vast shoal]

We're a startup, but we can continue working and all our customers can as well, so nothing really changed for us.

Other than everyone working remote.

[rare sand]

well, it depends whether the company pays its expenses with income or with investment capital

scale-ups, particularly, will be burning much more money than they earn purely by design

in order to grow big

[vast shoal]

We don't have income yet, but we're very close, and we don't need more capital as of now.

[rare sand]

then it's just good timing for you guys

[vast shoal]

Yeah, it might've been bad if this happened 3-6 months earlier.

[rare sand]

if this had happened right before your runway was up, you may have had trouble

because investors have basically gone completely quiet

too busy scrambling to secure their existing investments, not looking to get into new ones

anyway, I'm glad you guys are okay, but I do think there are many software companies out there that are vulnerable to this, at least if it happened at the wrong time. many start-ups operate with quite short runways.

[vast shoal]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[marsh wind]

funny time to be signing contracts
@rare sand we are two like that haha I signed my contract to start April 6 5 days ago.
In my case it is also a start-up (well they were founded in 2016 but still)
well, it depends whether the company pays its expenses with income or with investment capital
And AFAIK they got funding in December so I think they fall in the latter category

[charred summit]

@shut geyser @marsh wind
don't sleep lol... although you might need to check your eyes from time to time but end your days when you sleep and start them when you wake up
This way you spend first 20 hours coding, cooking, learning, shitting, showering whatever the hell your want
And 10h sleep is good nah?

[shut geyser]

Still, legal days here are 24h

[charred summit]

Yeah ik

Same here

[sterile meadow]

because they can't find investors
@rare sand i work at cornershop and we have this problem with uber. Mexico has months battling against which regulation entity should regulate our sale with uber

[cursive tundra]

I've been programming for 1 year now. I've learned python basics and OOP. Can I start working now?

[ashen crystal]

@cursive tundra that is a "how long is a piece of string" question... basically the answer is yes/no/maybe

[cursive tundra]

@ashen crystal I'm not following.

By working I mean the bare minimum

[ashen crystal]

the answer to your question, is yes/no/maybe

there is not enough information, perhaps someone else feels as though there is though

[cursive tundra]

fair enough.

I just don't know whether I'm good enough.

[ashen crystal]

I suggest you just apply to things and see how you get on

there's really nothing to lose

[cursive tundra]

How do I apply?

[ashen crystal]

for a job?

[cursive tundra]

You mean on linkeldn

[ashen crystal]

do i?

[cursive tundra]

I don't know

[ashen crystal]

I can't help guide on "how to apply for a job"

if that's what you're asking

[cursive tundra]

ok

thanks for your help

I'll try it out myself.

[ashen crystal]

i would start by googling jobs

yes, that is best

[cursive tundra]

🙂

[sterile meadow]

i started working as a python dev with no more experience than the first years of uni(which obviously were less than 10% python), it depends on you and your determination only

[tight hollow]

How were you able to land that @sterile meadow ?

[sterile meadow]

i had the luck that the company only focused on talent, so i began as junior and learned the first two months, since i learnt fast(studying advanced python, the best book i read was fluent python) i was promoted from backend to fullstack in those months and then 4 months later i moved to a bigger industry

now i work as a semi-senior backend with 1 year of experience

but the first three months was going from company to company searching for a job

[obsidian ridge]

semi-senior, that's a bit ridiculous

you're either 300iq or you got some dumbass employers

or both

surprised hr let you through with such little experience lol, but congrats nonetheless

[charred summit]

@sterile meadow you lucky af

[wraith flume]

@charred summit You act like it means anything no hate no hate at all but 1 yr of experience is still 1 year and the pay will show.

Unless of course you really do have an idiot employer but I have seen some first year guys do well and I’d really have to know you to be able to smell BS but as a general rule of thumb is that if it’s too good to be true it probably is.

I had it happen to me when I got my first role a fancy title and only 10k raise I left faster then ever after that

@vapid jay Lol my old startup used to use the "title tactic" and the word "family" to keep us from running away to FAANG where even though I don't "title switch" as often I at least get large raises, real benefits and when I move up I actually have experience that's industry respected.

But both big companies and startups suffer from bullshit like this.

lmao

and a 0.2% share in a company that is worth nothing

Free Beer barely 100k salary lol

People posting poems and orwellian language on linkedin

I fucking hate what the industry is becoming.

People sound like fucking parrots desperate.

Me and my friends have a weekly LinkedIn cringe compilation

I also hate normies who think attending Uni makes them the next Jeff Dean lol.

It's like people almost forget that underground hacker culture is a thing.

kids scripting since they were 10 years old and never taking a college course.

True but here in the Bay we had kids hacking at 10

Whatever though at the end of the day hackers have their world and normies have their own.

Are you in Europe?

Berlin? Prague?

Yeah I think most people could benefit from Uni

[mint citrus]

the bay sounds like a horrible place

[wraith flume]

@vapid jay I wanted to move to Berlin.

I am a Software Engineer.

[mint citrus]

Berlin not that great

[wraith flume]

Nah lol dropped out of Uni long ago.

[mint citrus]

good luck finding an apartment

been there done that

and yeeted

its an awesome place tho

[wraith flume]

Yeah

[mint citrus]

https://tenor.com/view/lets-go-drink-in-moderation-party-alcohol-drinking-gif-11254901

[wraith flume]

I am also a developer

and a coder

[mint citrus]

that gif sums up Berlin haha

[wraith flume]

and a programmer

@vapid jay Yeah that's what the company calls it lol

[mint citrus]

developer just means you develop things

engineer means you have more of a CS background and engineer things

[wraith flume]

I would also call myself and architect and hacker

[mint citrus]

really it jsut sounds better

[wraith flume]

@mint citrus Personally I don't care.

If the pay is good and I can move up then I don't care

[mint citrus]

calls @wraith flume a "web master"

^^

[wraith flume]

you could call me web master if you want as long as the checks and stocks are being released.

Well I am better in CS than the normie.

[mint citrus]

degree doesnt matter

just putting that out there

[wraith flume]

@vapid jay lol

[mint citrus]

when it gets to push and shove it really doesnt matter

[wraith flume]

Of course not who do you think started this industry?

[mint citrus]

all a degree does is get your foot in the door

[wraith flume]

Silicon Valley started with a bunch of guys with no degrees.

They could all run laps around the average "engineer".

[white karma]

If you can bypass HR, you can get in any company

[mint citrus]

^

HR is dumb 😦

[wraith flume]

@vapid jay But you're not an engineer regardless.

Engineer is not an accredited job title.

It's not like a doctor where you have credentials like M.D or PHD

but it's not a legal credential.

it's not.

You can get one sure but in America we don't have that.

One could recieve a PHD in the states for CS but not a lot of people do.

So in the U.S you aren't going to have a credential.

Masters isn't going to give you a credentialed title here.

I doubt most companies will carry your Czech degree with any weight

[mint citrus]

you can get M.D. with a masters

[wraith flume]

besides no one cares unless you're coming from Harvard , Stanford or some fancy foreign school like the Polytechnic uni in Paris no one cares.

[mint citrus]

oh they wont care what uni you come from if you have a MD

[wraith flume]

If you are looking for a credential to practice engineering in the States you won't find and or need one.

[mint citrus]

MD is an MD

tho you can leverage the fact you come from a higher uni to get a job

[wraith flume]

Companies won't care either. I keep running into more people with real world experience as new hires.

Go get internships, go get contracts that have a paper trail.

[mint citrus]

there are a lot of companies that still only pay attention to your schooling

sadly

[wraith flume]

in 50 years it's going to be blue color.

*collar

Like I said if you pay attention to that kind of stuff you'll have a tough time.

I stopped caring when I left my first job.

Pay attention to their experience, references and inconsistencies.

you'll find a lot more in there.

This is coming from someone who has helped with 280 hiring decisions.

[mint citrus]

its prob a culture thing

[wraith flume]

Again I don't care.

Pay is high and raises will come.

[mint citrus]

Americans dont care because it carries no value

in other countries is says something about the person

like @vapid jay said

[wraith flume]

In the U.S it means nothing.

[mint citrus]

@wraith flume I think we got the point you only care about money

[wraith flume]

That's why we have the most jobs and the most GDP.

No I love engineering

[weary sun]

What types of programming jobs are at Nasa?

[wraith flume]

There are jobs in DS ik they are hiring for.

I am an engineer.

impacting more people than you do.

[weary sun]

What is DS? I'm sorry I'm dumb

[wraith flume]

also probably better at engineering than you.

[mint citrus]

I dont think a degree signifies if you are engineer or not

not imo

[wraith flume]

again in the U.S no one cares.

also it's not a credential here.

ok I don't care about your country

[weary sun]

Also that isn't a personal opinion that's an opinion about the defintion of what an engineer is

[wraith flume]

You want to come here and shove your "title" down throats.

[mint citrus]

@vapid jay just typical monoculture american

they wont understand how other countries have different values

[wraith flume]

I am Mexican-American so not mono cultured.

[mint citrus]

fine

americanized mexican-american

better?

[wraith flume]

you guys just don't understand how there is a guy with no degree who has more experience than you getting paid more than you

and you are sad about that.

[mint citrus]

oh i understand fully

and I could care less if he gets paid more

[wraith flume]

I make more than you and as long as you stay in Europe it will stay that way.

[mint citrus]

he prob deserved it

[wraith flume]

ok keep your "title"

lol

[mint citrus]

yeah dude see money as a status thing

[weary sun]

WHY TF DOES IT MATTER SO MUCH JUST STFU

[open patio]

let's keep calm in here

[wraith flume]

Not really I've been in the industry longer

I'll be making far more by the time you get in.

[mint citrus]

well maybe someone should get off their high horse and things will calm down

[weary sun]

...

[wraith flume]

I'll probably be a consultant by the time you grad.

@vapid jay good for you.

N00b

[mint citrus]

if @wraith flume in the bay area he prob making a ton but also paying a ton for rent

[wraith flume]

I'm not since I own.

[mint citrus]

reason I would never want to work there

[wraith flume]

Good for you Lukas

[white karma]

Bay Area just isn’t a great place to live in general imo

[wraith flume]

Let's go over your background and credentials and blood type while we are at it?

[white karma]

Lots of homeless

[mint citrus]

@white karma i agree

[wraith flume]

Not where I live.

[mint citrus]

oh not about homeless

just the people there

[wraith flume]

Why are you guys so salty

[mint citrus]

from what ive been hearing

[wraith flume]

you see one American and freak out.

Google's HQ is in my town.

[white karma]

I mean the cost of living is pretty ridiculous too

[mint citrus]

I am american @wraith flume

lol

[white karma]

Same

[wraith flume]

THiRD CulTuRe KiD

[mint citrus]

you say that as if its a bad thing

[wraith flume]

No I just know your type

[mint citrus]

what that I come from another culture just like you?

just not americanized as much?

[wraith flume]

@mint citrus what race are you?

[mint citrus]

nah i believe @wraith flume a real engineer. but I feel he a total snob as well

waoh man woah

fucking racist

[white karma]

^

[wraith flume]

@mint citrus I am not normally like that but Luka attacked me.

[white karma]

Not the place to be asking in a channel about careers mate

[weary sun]

Guys please stop

[mint citrus]

ban this dude

[wraith flume]

It's a thing in the U.S since we have privilge.

[weary sun]

omg

bro

[mint citrus]

[white karma]

What?

[wraith flume]

it's not so monocutured and homogenous like europe

[mint citrus]

@open patio pls ban thx

[weary sun]

OMG

[wraith flume]

for instance I am a hispanic man and am therefore subjected to certain things others are not.

like people questioning my credibility

all the time.

[mint citrus]

i neve questioned your ability

[open patio]

let's drop this conversation here

[wraith flume]

it really is quite annoying hence why I started talking about pay

[mint citrus]

I just think your an ass and a snob

but thats my oppinion

[weary sun]

STOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP

[wraith flume]

@mint citrus my problem was not with you.

Now you continue to barade?

*barrate

[mint citrus]

i still dont understand how race makes a difference

[weary sun]

You guys gonna get banned rn I swear

[wraith flume]

I am trying to diffuse the conversation which is evident in the texts rn.

[weary sun]

He just said to drop this convo

[mint citrus]

yeah im done my bad

i was getting heated

[wraith flume]

Time to head back to the FP community lol

[mint citrus]

o/

man ive been hearing places freezing hiring

😦

[white karma]

For now

[mint citrus]

yeah

[white karma]

I’m not worried about it

[mint citrus]

idk if its just US tho

well im trying to get out of my current job

[wraith flume]

anywhere with tourism/airlines.

[mint citrus]

I only took it for the visa which I was desperate for

[white karma]

The way I see it there’s still gonna be work to be done

[wraith flume]

companies like Trip advisor and Southwest are firing people.

[white karma]

Even if it’s not by a major company

[mint citrus]

yeah its shit

shouldnt fire people

[wraith flume]

Amazon is being pretty shit rn

[white karma]

It’s a great way to see what companies you’d actually want to work for

[mint citrus]

really?

[wraith flume]

employees are bundling sick hours.

[mint citrus]

oh my application prob gonna sit at amazon for a while 😦

[white karma]

Amazon is a shit company to work for, no offense to anyone that does work there

[mint citrus]

oh.

I just applied

[wraith flume]

I've wanted to work on AWS for the longest time but after this I don't want to anymore.

They reached out to me simply because of my Github contributions.

[mint citrus]

but only to see if I get an interview

[wraith flume]

which is kind of dumb.

The github part.

[mint citrus]

companies still look at that?

[wraith flume]

Of course.

[mint citrus]

i havent added to my github for years man

[white karma]

I wouldn’t work for Amazon just by how they treat their lowest workers

[mint citrus]

ever since the last 2 years of uni

[white karma]

Can’t imagine how hard they work their tech guys

[mint citrus]

eh not as hard as they working me at my job because of their ignorance

kinda why I wanna leave

[wraith flume]

I only wanted to work for Amazon because of the managed cloud services and cashier-less shopping stuff.

[mint citrus]

how come @vapid jay ?

[wraith flume]

They have some pretty cool Alexa and AWs stuff here.

[white karma]

Probably the wage cages

[mint citrus]

i just wanna work on cool stuff

not ecommerce sites again

[wraith flume]

What we do in the valley is just jump from FAANG to FAANG which is a faster way of moving up than staying at one company.

[mint citrus]

ah

@wraith flume thats bascially what im doing

but not FAANG to FAANG

[wraith flume]

Well we have companies like Uber and Lyft here as well

and more in SF which are good to move around

[mint citrus]

wasnt there some stink about Uber last year or something?

[wraith flume]

not even just cause of the perks but what you get to work on.

Well I personally dislike Uber i find their whole company and culture unreliable.

[white karma]

I think the Uber thing was about them not paying their drivers properly

[mint citrus]

ah

[wraith flume]

Their also super unprofitable invesment wise.

[mint citrus]

I only used uber like 5 times

[wraith flume]

everyone besides the early guys at uber got fucked when the stocks went public.

I went to some meetups at Twilio and they seem pretty chill.

I've only done it at some startups but alot of companies allow drinking on the job.

I stay away from it now since I fear it will turn me into a productive alcoholic

[mint citrus]

drinking on the job just sounds bad

yall trying to hit that "creative" mark

haha

[wraith flume]

Watching too much of the social network.

[mint citrus]

is that a netflix show?

[wraith flume]

I hear Github (Microsoft) and Gitlab are goof to work for

[mint citrus]

doesnt watch much american shows

[wraith flume]

no it's a movie.

[mint citrus]

oh never saw

any good?

[wraith flume]

it's about Zuck making the FB

[mint citrus]

oh wait

[wraith flume]

yeah it's pretty sick

[mint citrus]

i did see that then

Zuck an ass tho

[white karma]

^

[mint citrus]

in the movie. idk about real life

prob the same?

[white karma]

He’s a robot

[wraith flume]

I don't know him personally so I can't say much but he seems like a good leader.

[mint citrus]

or has a good money trail

[wraith flume]

I mean in terms of doing good rn he is doing a lot better for the world rn than Jeff Bezos.

[white karma]

That dude is definitely loaded

[wraith flume]

Jeff Bezos is fucking people over rn

[white karma]

With dosh

[mint citrus]

idk Jeff Bezos

😦

lives under a rock

[wraith flume]

and Zuck even though I can't say much is doing really good stuff for his employees.

Bezos is the CEO and Founder of Amazon

[mint citrus]

I heard they treat some of them like shit tho

[white karma]

I mean

[mint citrus]

there was a video on youtube I watched

[white karma]

That’s every business

[mint citrus]

the guys who monitor the content on FB

[wraith flume]

Honestly from what I have seen at Facebook they treat everyone well.

[white karma]

Every business has their favorites

[wraith flume]

well they know "The Moderators" what they are getting into when they choose the role.

[mint citrus]

no i mean their work place was shit

[wraith flume]

I met a chick during her first day of training and she had to be evaluated and referred by a current moderator to get the job.

[mint citrus]

I agree with you there that they know what they are getting into

but to have a shit office is not nice

but that could just be the ones in FL

[wraith flume]

Well technically most of are moderators are contractors who work for a different company.

Ik that FB treats all employees and non employees under their daily guise of supervision incredibly well.

which is probably why you don't hear too many labor complaints on their end.

[mint citrus]

i see

[wraith flume]

Like one thing I noticed is that cafeteria staff can eat side by side with engineers no questions asked.

I have not seen that anywhere else.

[mint citrus]

happens here

I sit next to the guys who build the machines we sell

tho I cant speak with them haha

doesnt speak the native language here

[wraith flume]

are you in Thailand?

[mint citrus]

ya

planning to move back to the US

the US does end up paying well and im done travelling around for a bit

[wraith flume]

this whole corona thing is probably a pain in the ass then.

[mint citrus]

well...

im still going to the office

it hasnt been that serious here yet

[wraith flume]

some people are hiring remote rn in the U.S but there are so many people applying that it's hard to find good resumes in a pile.

[mint citrus]

tho now its getting serious and im wondering why they dont have us wfh yet

[wraith flume]

they are probably being greedy or not taking it seriously.

[mint citrus]

being greedy i think

I would work remote but then.... visa issues

I gotta stay here for another year at least

[wraith flume]

they would probably make an exception since the Corona Virus but I would not risk it.

[mint citrus]

yeah

i applied to a few places in the US already. the plan is to be back there in Dec

[wraith flume]

which metro are you mocing to?

*moving

[mint citrus]

Charlotte is my first choice

tho i dont mind working anywhere else

as long as its not cali. cause expensive af

[wraith flume]

NC is nice and cheap.

[mint citrus]

I just like the atmosphere there

[wraith flume]

yeah it's a lot different from the cities.

[mint citrus]

but Boston seems nice too

you got the european vibe there

[wraith flume]

Austin is cheap.

[mint citrus]

oh no

I grew up in FL

im done with heat

[wraith flume]

going for the european feel in the U.S is hard

it limits you

to choices

I'd try montreal if you really want a euro feel in NA

[mint citrus]

yeah well im not set on the european feel

[wraith flume]

SF and SEA are awesome they are just expensive.

[mint citrus]

I just want a place with no racism issues or crime

[wraith flume]

lol good luck finding that in the US

[mint citrus]

ikr

[wraith flume]

you should go to Singapore or Tokyo

[mint citrus]

tho south FL was pretty chill

[wraith flume]

even then the racism part will be hard to get away from.

[mint citrus]

man asians are more racist than americans

[wraith flume]

ik

[mint citrus]

that sounds wrong

its more accepted in asia

like discrimination is the norm here

[wraith flume]

Well Asian countries are a lot more culturally homogenous.

[mint citrus]

also japan has issues

[wraith flume]

even though china has hundreds of groups living there the majority of the pop like over 90 something percent are Han

[mint citrus]

I already stand out like a sore thumb

[wraith flume]

Well i have to get back to being a wagie.

[mint citrus]

o/

[charred summit]

@wraith flume mind explaining what you just said?
I couldn't understand "no hate no hate"
Earlier I said "the guy legutier is lucky at fire", because I don't feel so confident after building tools, automating stuff and web dev yet so the guy must be really lucky to land that job.
Tbh I haven't even apply for the job yet :D

[wraith flume]

@charred summit honestly this convo is dead now. What I meant is be careful that your not just getting fucked with pointless titles and your actually getting something substantial for your time. I also want to reiterate that I said I didn’t know your situation and therefore can’t really speak on it.

I’ve just seen this happen to so many people I usually know when it’s going on. Again I don’t know your situation as I said before.

@charred summit the best advice I can give you is that even if the pay is less and the title is less prestigious to go and work for a trustworthy and established company because often times the title “Software Developer” at a company like Github or FAANG or even somewhere like General Electric carries more weight in terms of experience and a good paper trail than being the “Co-founder” or “Tech Lead” of some sketchy company with no prior experience on your resume.

[vapid jay]

If i want to go for software development should i learn another language along with python? If yes ,which one?

[mint citrus]

yes

and any

[vast shoal]

@vapid jay Javascript/Typescript, HTML, CSS and SQL are good complements to Python. Even if you're not mainly looking to be a webdev, web frontends are very common for apps and services nowadays, so it's good to have a good handle on web technologies in general.

[vapid jay]

is Java good?

[vast shoal]

@vapid jay Like @vapid jay said, it's good and widely used. I wouldn't say that it's a complement to Python, since they are both used as backend languages, but learning multiple languages used for similar purposes certainly doesn't hurt.

[vapid jay]

what r some front end languages

some good*

[vast shoal]

Javascript/Typescript, HTML, CSS

More or less the only ones.

[vapid jay]

html,css

isnt that web

i want like dekstop applications etc

[vast shoal]

Well, there are Python frameworks for that.

PyQt for example.

[vapid jay]

ye what other programming languages

i use tkinter

what other programming languages should i learn for dekstop applications along with python

[brittle perch]

I wouldn't recommend PyQT for desktop if am being honest

You are far better building an web app than PyQt imo

It's easier to maintain also way faster to develop

Also you can use it everywhere, write once run in every browser

just like java :p

[vast shoal]

@vapid jay I don't see how you would use another language for desktop applications along with Python. You can use another language instead of Python.

[vapid jay]

whats the most used language in dekstop applications

[brittle perch]

Java or C#

I find C# way better

For building windows apps

[vapid jay]

ight thanks

[brittle perch]

But for me building web apps will be way better

It would be better build a flask web app

then

pyqt5

[vast shoal]

You could do that, but it's not really related to the frontend.

I mean, any Python app could do that, be it a desktop app, a script or a web backend.

[opaque silo]

Could do with some opinions - super torn between applying for a data science/ML masters vs teaching myself

[agile dove]

Hi! I'm working in the business controll department of a medium sized company (250 employees) and I've gotten interested in learning data science to broaden my own knowledge and to make our business more data driven. Our ERP is NAV2017 and we use Qliksense as a BI-tool. My initial goal is to analyze our data structure to find flaws, more precisely to find how many rows we have without key dimensions (i.e dimensions such as brand in the OPEX, missing data in the item structure etc). For example, I'm picturing running through the data and creating a visual report of how correct our data is (%) and from that add mandatory fields in the input for those dimensions. How would you recommend me going about this? What should I dive into? What in this field would fit an Business Controller with some BI-experience?

[marsh wind]

@opaque silo what's your current degree?

and what coutry you are in

[opaque silo]

Economics in UK

So my maths - stats, probability, calculus, is pretty good, may have forgotten a lot since graduating in summer but its still in my head

So far ive self taught python, built a rock paper scissors game - thats about as advanced as ive gotten, and can do a lot of codewars challenges, and learn a lot in the process

I'd prefer to self teach and let my curiosity lead the way, i know its pretty basic but seeing how people like elon musk can self-teach entirely new fields and achieve success is pretty inspiring but at the same time I dont want to squander the opportunity of university - which is typically seen as the more sensible route , especially because its more of a guarantee that id end up in the position I want to be, and id assume it would appeal to industry standards more so, especially at the top tier innovators like deepmind

@marsh wind

[vast shoal]

@opaque silo I would definitely go with uni if I were you. The self-teaching route is possible, but in my opinion, way harder. And that's just for general software dev. Might be even harder for a data science-related position.

"Letting your curiosity lead the way", at first glance, does not sound like a good attitude to have if you're going to self-teach. If I were to do that, I would want to be way more disciplined. Essentially trying to replace the contents of a good uni program with what I can find online.

Not trying to kill your fun, but it sounds like you might end up wasting time not getting anywhere if you just fumble around randomly.

Maybe I'm overly pessimistic, but I just find that learning (or doing anything productive, really) effectively is very difficult without some kind of structure, and you need the right mindset in order to succeed with that.

[marsh wind]

BSc in economics right?
From what I saw, for Data sciece they usually prefer at least a relevant MSc or some proven experience

it might really be hard to get in without both the relevan degree and exerpience.

if not going for Master, your best bet while self educating would probably be open source contributions, building your own portfolio + trying to get some internship, maybe in data analysis or smth related

[gilded valley]

There are quite a lot of conversion MScs in the UK, for people from other STEM backgrounds to get into Data Science or CS in general

[opaque silo]

When i said my curiosity, I mean this in a more discplined sense then it may have come off, for example, undertaking my own projects on kaggle and learning from the roadblocks

I understand it'd be a lot harder than university, but from my previous experience, those 3 years at undergrad were awful for me, the teaching style is dated, and I could have geniuenly learned a lot more if i spent the time learning myslef, given the discipline

Im just not sure if putting myself through that ungodly amount of stress at university would be different given Im way more interested in the course this time, and almost feel as if Im telling myself Im not capable of learning myself if I go the university route

& I applied to some comp sci degrees but thinking again id prefer to apply to something more specialised that is more directly applicable to my field of interest - mainly ai and ml

[gilded valley]

I think if you want to enter the field of data science and AI, a MSc or PHD is probably the easiest path to getting employed in the field. You could look around at conversion masters for data science, I know my basement tier uni does data science conversion degrees, but I think places like Imperial have very good options for people in your position

[opaque silo]

Yh the one im most interested in is data sci + ml at ucl

but again, looking at the content in the modules, theres nothing stopping someone from picking up a book and learning on their own

I dont know if im being naive though but it seems possible

[gilded valley]

Most things are pretty available to teach yourself nowadays, the issue is proving to employers that you know it. I'd imagine taking a year to do a degree will lead to a higher net income than self teaching, but I could be wrong. Then you also need to consider how much you'll dislike doing the masters, and whether you would be disciplined enough to self-teach

[marsh wind]

also the cost, in case if the MSc you choose will be the one you have to pay for

[gilded valley]

Yeah, cost is an issue. If you think its likely you ever pay off your student loans, thats a consideration

[marsh wind]

I guess it is also school dependent, but I imagine doing some school might put you in touch with some industry people

allowing to bypass initial screening/HRs

[opaque silo]

To be honest, you raise a good point i think the biggest question i need to answer is my dislike of uni vs discipline to self teach

[marsh wind]

your dislike of uni might also be a subject of Uni you went to

[opaque silo]

I'm not sure about that though, I know i didnt enjoy my subject - because i picked it at 16 trying to make the most money, maybe someone who does enjoy their subject can provide their experience

[gilded valley]

You could also take it as an oppurtunity to live life differently for a year. Go to Edinburgh or something to live in a different part of the country and you might enjoy it more just because its a new experience

[marsh wind]

well I quite enjoyed my uni

but this is higly subjective

[opaque silo]

Ok thats good to know

[torpid bolt]

Can i ask why the 👎 @charred summit ? :(

[hushed jungle]

If I get good with sql and python, do I need to know excel?

[radiant moon]

for what?

if you're getting a job that requires that you know excel, then yes; you need to know excel

if not, then not

excel isn't particularly related to sql and python

[hushed jungle]

I want to go into data science. From what I can tell, excel isn't needed but it comes up in job ads sometimes

Isn't python and sql like, better versions of excel?

[radiant moon]

no

quite different

python is a programming language; sql is a family of databases and their associated query language; excel is a spreadsheet.

they have some similarities, the way dogs, humans, and monkeys do

but they're pretty different

in data science I imagine it'd be useful to be good at excel

[hushed jungle]

Hmm. I see.
I just recall reading somewhere that anything one can do in excel, you can do better with sql or python

BTW, I'm doing the udacity programming for data science nanodegree. You think it's worth the time?

[marsh wind]

I know some people were quite happy with udacity programs they got for discounted price but said they are not worth the full price

so probably it is worth the time

[hushed jungle]

Well it's free for a month so I guess I have nothing to lose as long as I finish it in a month

[charred summit]

hey @torpid bolt, my bad if that made you upset, but I have used kivy, I got the advice to use it from someone in this channel and I went for it, the backend is good, no different than using python with flask but the UI was not quite good as I expected it to be, I used an older version about 2 months ago, it might have changed since then.
But my overall experience wasn't that good with Kivy, so I went for C#'s Xamarin but that needed a good C# knowledge so I sticked my nose with python.
however the applications developed with xamarin have better UIs.

[torpid bolt]

well, good or bad, it's always good to have feedback, even if i'm a bit sad to hear your experience wasn't great

[charred summit]

I hope it gets better so i won't need to learn C# or Xamarin at all

[torpid bolt]

i must say i believe it's possible to make any UI look and feel you want to with kivy, but it certainly requires understanding it quite well to see how.

did you have a look at kivyMD? it does provide nice widgets out of the box

the look

[charred summit]

Nah I didn't see that yet, but I saw a post regarding it on Reddit, never used it.

[torpid bolt]

the default look is not pretty, but it's just a default, your widgets can look any way you want them to

[charred summit]

actually I was running really at out of time at that time (2 months back), I wasn't ready or even made up my mind to learn something new and spend more time with Kivy but I will try it later, although now I am focusing my all into web dev with python

[torpid bolt]

sure, it's fine if you do web dev as well, 🙂

and thanks for the honest feedback

[charred summit]

@vapid jay I just added that to my list, I don't learn languages right away, first I pursue some courses that demonstrate the languages in real-application use and then pursue them if I like them. Thanks.

[eager sluice]

What's the best place to find freelancer work

[sterile meadow]

electron is used by a lot of desktop apps rn

[torpid bolt]

well there is more web dev than ever was, and they probably outnumber the ones with knowledge about desktop frameworks, so if they have a way to ship to the desktop with the same technology, and with a shared codebase, of course they are going to do that

[vapid jay]

How much does a entry leve bachelors degree software engineer make in Brooklyn nyc?

[eager tree]

how long is a piece of string

[torpid bolt]

you'll certainly find that there is significant variation of earnings, even for entry level, it can depend on a lot of things, the school you went to, the projects you have achieved already, the company you manage to get into, etc

look at job postings sure, but also try to see what people who are currently working at companies are saying about them, and how happy they are with their compensations

[gilded valley]

In the UK I've heard of grad jobs ranging from ~20kgb to ~70kgbp, so the range is absolutely massive

[unkempt lodge]

I might buy a python coarse where can i use python? Because I know that Java can be used in website's but where can i use python?

[white karma]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[unkempt lodge]

Thank's ill check it out.

[hot panther]

@unkempt lodge There are a lot of good python learning tutorials

To learn I would recommend learning using, Automate the Boring with Python

Also, one more thing, I believe you are confusing Java with JS, which is used for web development.

[viscid kindle]

hi

[sick mist]

@ornate geode what is the actual difference for you?

[worldly haven]

Hello guys I'm Business/Finance student at university, and I really got interested by Python programming and I'd like to know if you think that passing a PCEP - Certified Entry-Level Python Programmer Certification? Or is it a scam?

[sick mist]

sounds like scam to me 😄

won't stop orgs to sell "certifications"

but I never ran into someone who had one

and from the syllabus, the certification level is very very low, so it does not stand for much

I'm not saying that you won't find a clueless recruiter somewhere asking for it though, but it should be a telling sign that the place is bogus

[worldly haven]

Its better to build a portfolio and put it on my resume right?

[vapid jay]

actions in general speak louder than words

or "Show, don't tell"

[vast shoal]

@worldly haven This reddit post by our community member @neon moat details how he went from scratch to landing his first job as a Python dev with no previous experience. What he did is a fairly plausible way of self-learning, I think: https://www.reddit.com/r/learnpython/comments/ctkypf/im_100_self_taught_landed_my_first_job_my/

[worldly haven]

Epic @vast shoal ! thanks Even though I don't plan to become Python Developer (I'm more interested in becoming Investment Banker) Learning and acquiring strong python skills could be a huge plus for me.

[vast shoal]

Yeah, I thought that might be the case, but the resources he lists are probably still going to be useful.

You can also check out:

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources

[worldly haven]

Thanks again! so passing a certification is useless even though i would just state it on my resume to add more value to "non-tech" and more finance jobs ?

[vast shoal]

Like @vapid jay, I've never seen or heard of such a certification myself, and if the curriculum is basic, it will probably make little difference on your resume. You can include it if you like, but a nice portfolio and sounding sane/competent in an interview is probably much more valuable.

[vapid jay]

wrong name?

[vast shoal]

Yeah, sorry, @sick mist *

Though, to be fair, I don't know how an interviewer for an investment banker position would see it.

My experience is through the eyes of a software developer.

[worldly haven]

The thing is that I'm a first year student at uni and my goal is to make my cv the most attractive possible (huge competition) But if I put a link of my portfolio on my resume it would maybe even more valuable

thanks for your wise words @vast shoal

[sick mist]

I'm working with traders on my day job, I assure you that this cert has nothing that will turn useful for a banking/investment job :p

as put by @vast shoal build a few interesting project over the years on the side on your personal github

it will speak louder than any cert, guarantee 👌

[worldly haven]

I agree @sick mist , i know that VBA is king for finance rather than Python 😉 I just like to link python to financial modelling and other stuff that are not related to finance.

[sick mist]

hehe, good ole' VBA, makes the banking sector hold together for so many years 😅

and yes, Python has a great toolbox for financial modeling

if I only had one name to drop: pandas

[worldly haven]

I'm hesitating between learning Django or go into panda

[sick mist]

pandas, bokkeh / plotly

[vast shoal]

VBA. Eugh.

[sick mist]

well, in your branch, being good with pandas will open you all doors

[vast shoal]

Pandas would be better than Django for finance, yeah.

[sick mist]

and then the two other ones are visualisation/dashboarding libraries

[worldly haven]

I mean i can learn all of them i'm young haha 😉

and since we're in quarantine for an undefined time

[viral ridge]

Do devops engineers generally make more than software engineers?

[sick mist]

depends on many other factors 😄 @viral ridge

[vast shoal]

I've never worked anywhere where the two were differentiated, so I can't say.

So far it's always just been junior vs senior.

[viral ridge]

North will that's why I said generally

well the two can be differentiated meaningfully

[vast shoal]

I mean, in terms of title and salary.

[viral ridge]

@sick mist the salary of a software engineer

Gotcha

[vast shoal]

At all my workplaces, everyone has been expected to do everything, be it coding or configuring CI pipelines.

[viral ridge]

i'm using voice recognition, and it likes to mess around hinge my lack of coherence

[marsh wind]

I think if you want some general info you probably should check glassdoor/linkein salaries stats

[viral ridge]

hence*

[sick mist]

@viral ridge no problem, we get what you mean

[vast shoal]

@viral ridge You've been coherent to me, so far.

[sick mist]

I agree if you want accurate stats, you can look in several websites that accrue this kind of data

it's not 100% representative of the market, but it's best than nothing

[marsh wind]

but otherwise, whenever I ask/discuss with peope that in general salary depends a lot on specific company, duties, city, experience and each employee negotiation skills

[sick mist]

I think that if you're starting at both positions, you'll get roughly the same, if you can do both, you'll get a premium for being a linchpin

[marsh wind]

espscially with job titles that are more like a paralel rather vertical in hierarchy: i.e. you can probably say that generally speaking data analysts make less than data engineers or data scientist, so there is some kind of vertical hierarchy there.

[sick mist]

I run into many devops who can't code, or devs who can't use SSH, obviously I give more work to people who can juggle, even if they still have a strong trait in one area, but can find their way in the other

[vast shoal]

Yeah, people who can be useful more often tend to look better, get more and higher raises and better starting salaries when switching jobs.

[sterile meadow]

in bigger company devops dont even exist as that

they have something called SRE

[viral ridge]

Some websites like glassdoor only stated a less than 5% difference, get some other websites claimed that the difference could be around 20% in favor of the devops.

[sterile meadow]

which is the almost the same

[viral ridge]

Well you can be hired as a dvops in both IBM and Microsoft, but perhaps you are right

[sick mist]

at the end of the day, your profile is a better indicator of salary than your title

people switch jobs, careers, etc

if you bring something to the table, you have more leverage during a salary discussion

harder to pull when you're just starting, hence the similarity between starting salaries (5% is the same as 0% tbh)

but yeah, if you're really a great devops/sysadmin, considering it can be a very painful job to do at times, you get less people who are willing to put the effort in excelling at it

scarcity -> price goes up

which explains why you can get 20% in favor of devops

if one of my devs is sick no problem, get better soon

if my sysadmin is sick, I'm sweating a bit 😄

get the idea?

[sterile meadow]

thats true

i dont even have a title

[viral ridge]

Yes luckily I do have the ability to think ^^

[sterile meadow]

site reliability engineer is called now btw

[viral ridge]

But I wouldn't say thatthemain reason for highest salary is because of scarcity. i believe the last decademade a lot of more work,even defined devops, in that fieldand such it is also about the amount and supply

the minddemand*

[sick mist]

well, to my experience, dependable and capable people are scarce

[sterile meadow]

scarsity is about supply/demand

[viral ridge]

Indeed

[sick mist]

irrelevant to how many jobs there are out there

[viral ridge]

why do you think it can be a very painful job to do at times

[sick mist]

been SRE for 3 years 😄

and it is very stressful at times

[viral ridge]

Still are?

[sick mist]

nope, now one of my coworker replaced me there

basically you end up being the one person (or part of the small group of persons) responsible for keeping the lights on

see how quickly people lose their mind when discord/twitter/minecraft goes offline for 1h

[viral ridge]

Honestly, it's because of my situation with voice recognition. I don't really enjoy doing work as much anymore, hence I just want to go down the line that pays better. I recently graduated being top 10 in my year

[eager tree]

🍪 here's the cookie you want

[viral ridge]

which doesn't really say anything other than i have at least some cognitive ability lol

[sick mist]

well, I don't think it would cause you any prejudice in any computer-based line of work, so I'd say it's up to you to pick a path

[viral ridge]

@eager tree i didn't really see me crying or complaining about my situation, but suck it

[eager tree]

?

[sick mist]

but I'd suggest looking at stuff that interest you, not only based on pay

[sterile meadow]

tbh uni does not mean anything

its more like the project you participated on

projects*

[viral ridge]

i didn't say that it meant anything, but in my location pretty much all companies would expect one

[sterile meadow]

where are you from

[viral ridge]

on the other hand the people in the bottom of University, probably are not the ones that are going down to be a path of data science ie

we can scratch that I said I went to university

mypointwas just that i can pursue pretty much any field

[sterile meadow]

what, lmao what are you saying

[viral ridge]

I suppose you were able to understand the last 2 msgs

[sick mist]

err, I barely graduated from uni 😅

[sterile meadow]

i didnt even graduated

and worked on a data science paper

that we presented on ADASS

[viral ridge]

and i decided to stay in university so i could just slack

[balmy mural]

on the other hand the people in the bottom of University, probably are not the ones that are going down to be a path of data science ie
This is a very narrow mindset

[viral ridge]

Okay good for you

I don't really see it as a very narrow mindset.

[sterile meadow]

its reaaally narrow

grades dont make anything dude, specially in compsci

[sick mist]

what I think we're trying to say @viral ridge is that there is little correlation between academic success and professional success

[eager tree]

Good luck getting a job because clearly no one would want to work with you with your attitude

[viral ridge]

It's quite simple you can just look at the median. If the ones above are more likely to pursue data science careers

I have ajob, but thanks

[sterile meadow]

Good luck getting a job because clearly no one would want to work with you with your attitude
@eager tree yes, when i worked in a lab, they didnt accept people with that personality, even at big companies

[viral ridge]

i think you're missing thepointin trying to turn this into something negative

[sick mist]

well, I think we clearly see what you try to say, but being dismissive is usually frowned upon, regardless whether you might be factually right

[viral ridge]

lol ok then

[sterile meadow]

i know that grades and all that stuff can be seen as a metric

[sick mist]

we're all trying to be helpful to each other

[viral ridge]

As in when I said that I was a recent graduate, people were starting to bash graduates?

So much for double standards

[sick mist]

but.. nobody bashed graduates 🤔

[viral ridge]

In that case I could say that I wasn't being dismissive

[sterile meadow]

but really no one asks you ever in compsci what you grades were, and even if they ask, if you go to ALMA observatory for example they ask more things like your projects and all that stuff, grades are a minimum fact that no one really cares, at most they only care what university you finished

[viral ridge]

Which I wasn't

[sterile vault]

Academic success may give you opportunities to get into the door. Often I see job posting for various intenships with "top uni, good academic record, PhD is a plus". I'm talking strictly about Junior/Intern roles, keep in mind.

[marsh wind]

well he said right away after saying that he was top 10 that:

which doesn't really say anything other than i have at least some cognitive ability lol

[sterile meadow]

Academic success may give you opportunities to get into the door. Often I see job posting for various intenships with "top uni, good academic record, PhD is a plus". I'm talking strictly about Junior/Intern roles, keep in mind.
@sterile vault yes on inters its more common, because thats like the only metric they have for them

[viral ridge]

Well enjoy the witch hunt

[marsh wind]

so I guess we are straying far from he initial point of the whole discussion... I think his point was not that being top 10 by itself will mean a lot for the job but more that it means he is able to learn and can dedicate himself to a chosen path, that is all