many games have portions written in python
#career-advice
onyx raft
@indigo sleet yeah you're wrong.
Django is popular, doesn't make it good
indigo sleet
it's genuinely one of the nicest web frameworks I've ever used
onyx raft
doesn't make it good
gilded valley
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve_Online#Development
Both the server and the client software for Eve Online are developed in Stackless Python, a variant of the Python programming language
indigo sleet
and I have 11 years of experience myself haha
onyx raft
See, this is another distribution, not CPython
indigo sleet
django isn't a distribution
onyx raft
PyPy is stackless as well isn't it
gilded valley
I'm not arguing with you
just pointing out that Eve is in python to gdude
I don't care enough to argue with you
onyx raft
I was answering @gilded valley, sorry @indigo sleet 😛
indigo sleet
Oh, lol
onyx raft
I know PyPy doesn't fix gmae development, never said it did
vale heart
re: opengl bindings there's the moderngl package now that makes things easier
onyx raft
And my rant was probably really bad, you're right 😄
indigo sleet
people that think django is bad are probably not working in that part of the industry though, tbh
or at least just don't fully understand how it works
it does have a fairly high bar to entry
gilded valley
Django seems much better than Node which is what I've seen in its place
indigo sleet
honestly I wish I learned django years ago
it makes everything so much easier
It's fairly in-demand, too
@gilded valley
The graphic engine is based on DX9c with GEForce 256 as a minimum hardware requirement. Through a powerful Python-programmed API and Maya, the artists at CCP have tools that enable them to easily realize their visions and gives them greater flexibility and freedom in creating graphics of cinematic quality.
it's not entirely python
it just has a python-supporting API
like every other game that uses Python and doesn't use kivy/pygame
gilded valley
That sounds like Python talking to Dx9 doesnt it? Which I thought is what was the standard
or is that saying Python talks to an engine that talks to DX9
indigo sleet
It implies that they wrote an engine in something else and added Python support to it
if they're using Maya that's pretty likely
gilded valley
I guess
indigo sleet
I mean it makes sense
Nobody writes a graphics engine in Python
The game logic being Python makes sense, though
onyx raft
If python got rid of GIL, I wouldn't see any reason not to.
graphics engines just use API calls to Dx/OpenGL/Vulcan and OS native (or not) components.
They do not create those APIs from scratch, if we were to be blunt UE or Unity or Godot are just really good wrappers with a lot of utility around those APIs, that the devs of the graphics engine do not touch that much
I mean, I am just guessing
indigo sleet
the GIL is a common boogeyman
onyx raft
Thing is, they decided to use C++ or C# to create those tools/UIs to call Dx/OpenGL/Vulcan
indigo sleet
but the truth is that CPython would be a lot slower without it
and probably quite a bit less stable
you can look at the old gilectomy project if you're curious about that
onyx raft
well, there's still type-checking overhead which is resolved with cython I guess.
I like the language, I don't know why else wouldn't you like to have a graphics engine in Python
indigo sleet
it's really just a speed thing
onyx raft
Yea, the speed is comming from the type inference only I guess
indigo sleet
well, it's a bit more than that
python's function call overhead is pretty massive, for example
Not sure if you've used sqlalchemy but they managed to achieve a 2-3x speedup by eliminating a single function call from their codebase
and just dumping the contents of that function into the places it was called
(it was talked about in a Talk Python To Me interview with one of the sqla guys)
onyx raft
I'll look for that
indigo sleet
for most projects it won't matter at all
but for something like a graphics engine, you need to squeeze out every last drop of performance
in that case you'd want to use cython at minimum
sterile vault
Also, there's a whole lot of various optimisations gamedevs use. In rough terms, it's the difference between using numpy vs doing the same calculations in python lists.
Tricks with memory management is pretty arcane art (at least for me), but you get slowdown wherever you can't get needed data from processor cache (like when going though the classic array), but have to hunt down the data all over the RAM
onyx raft
@sterile vault yea, but there's nothing stopping you from optimising the engine with c extensions, or even using rust (that's possible as well now)
I don't know, I've also worked with pytorch and tensorflow, they're written in C/C++ (roughly speaking) and you're still using Python as an engine around those.
They even provided stuff like data loaders, to allivate the need to use Apache Hadoop to some degree (for large data sets) (and the family, e.g. Spark)
All I am saying is that is it possible with Python (and I was the one ranting about it)
sterile vault
Well, smells awfully like Theseus's ship
onyx raft
I just don't think it is worth it most of the time, when you have to hack the runtime of the language itself
sterile vault
When it stops being python game engine with C/C++ speedups vs C/C++ with python wrapper
onyx raft
yea it does, but Google and Facebook did that for some reason, they got those smart visionary guys who believed that it would be worth it
and they were right, somehow everyone is using pytorch and tensorflow (sometimes they use it with C/C++ directly)
but they do the initial research with the very python wrapper
that deals with the same data
gilded valley
Practically no one is doing ML/AI on the scale of Google/Facebook. Deploying standard Pytorch, Keras or even SKL on Django/Flask is probably the most common real world business application of ML/AI
If you're a medium sized company, its infinitely easier to hire some math grad to learn a bit of numpy than it is to touch C++
onyx raft
Isn't it the same for video games though, only big producers try to bring AAA (whatever that means) titles are too costly to develop otherwise?
gilded valley
I guess
onyx raft
Though the problem is different, I see, sorry
sterile vault
It's a bit more complex than that.
onyx raft
we already have UE and Unity
(or Godot), so why bother doing thatin Python, whne you know it is going to cost you more effort
sterile vault
AAA is overall budget, but some indie studios do very complex simulations
gilded valley
You'd bother doing that in Python for the same reason we do scientific computing in Python - massively faster dev cycles
Python very much isn't mainstream for games, but its feasible that an engine could support it quite heavily
sterile vault
For example, check out Factorio - written in C++, devs are efficiency freaks and do very cool dev diaries about their optimisations
Lot of smaller studios do heavy AI (classic game algos, not ML) and physics work, AAA is usually marketing/graphics.
vapid jay
Guys, got my first job opportunity as a data scientist. Thing is, it's not a really "well established" company.
They're a group of 6-7 people working for someone who rented a small office.
After the interview went well they told me to upgrade one of my personal projects into one that incorporates a neural network.
I have no idea how interviews go in the coding world or if this kind of company is trustworthy or not. Any tips?
vapid jay
@vapid jay it sounds reasonable but you don't need to give them any code for free
that belongs to you
there's probably some trade register or something you can check. there has to be paper trail somewhere with taxes and whatnot.
for what reason do they specifically want you to implement the NN?
@vapid jay they want to see my skills. Gave me 1 week to finish the project.
1.) Find a way to autorun the script
2.) Implement a NN to start predicting the data without the need of my calculations and functions
i see
I have no intention of giving them my script. Just show it through my own laptop
well that sounds like a good exercise then 🙂
get started
Yeah it forced me to learn a lot this week
those are normal things.
Just the stress of "I have no idea what to do" forces you to learn a lot
that's how it goes.
vital imp
morning pytongers!
vapid jay
God bless Sentdex
@vapid jay the process of actually finding a new job requires writing surprising amounts of code. those "lightweight" exercises they throw at you might take you anything from 5 to 10 hours.
i don't think i've managed a single one under 5 hours
So everything's normal
yeah
Hope they pay well tbh. Entry level salary must be crap here
they're a small company
then again from what I saw I'm the only one who applied there in weeks lol
they don't have a lot to throw around unless they're really well backed up
dry sapphire
5-10 hours seems like a lot for a junior position
wraith token
is there a difference between these two positions?
'Data Scientist' vs 'Data Analyst' ?
dry sapphire
yes.
but they're quite nebulous terms
in general, "data analyst" is considered slightly less prestigious
you would expect a data analyst to work more with SQL and some data visualisation tool like Tableau, with either Python or R, but not that advanced
primary tasks would be things like A/B testing and dashboarding
data scientist positions would generallly involve more ML, intermediate+ statistics, experiment design...
but it really depends on location and company.
wraith token
interesting. thank you
marsh wind
what kind of questions I should expect from interview with HR that is after phone and on site tech interview with team members?
before I typically had interviews with HR/recruiter before anyting else, so they usually just asked on my backsotry, motivations and presented the company, so not much, basically they did initial filtering/screening.
torpid bolt
Expectations, unless that was discussed before
Maybe some personality assessment, some companies do that, but i think they would say so in advance
tight hollow
It seems like for someone starting out/ self-teaching, web dev is the most likely way to monetize skills w/out a bachelor's degree or prior work experience compared to any kind of automation, data analysis, or engineer role role?
marsh wind
Expectations, unless that was discussed before
@torpid bolt no, I not at all. Just motivation briefly
but nothing like expectations for salary, or career path or anything like tat
torpid bolt
yeah, i meant compensations expectations, it's likely to be a question then.
inner zealot
I guess I posted in the wrong channel
I just got a job interview on Monday for programming for a small business. Here's what I did. I applied to a bunch of receiptonist/data entry jobs and I wrote in my resume "skills: programming(websites, applications, automating menial tasks)" and other stuff like that. I also had the qualifications to be a receiptonist/data entry so either way win win. Anyways, I got a call and the person says they want to hire me. They have a bunch of things that are time consuming and she does it all by hand and wants me to automate it. She gave me an example problem and I'm gonna have a skeleton app of it ready for the interview monday
I'm gonna help this business build an infastructure if they don't already have one. She also mentioned data entry as a problem
I have 8 months experience in python and 1 in flask, well see how it goes
woeful spruce
automating mundane tasks is a great way to show your value
I do it quite often
just make sure to debug well 😁
icy cedar
Good luck @inner zealot!
lusty crater
What are the main uses of python ?
marsh wind
webdev, AI/ML, automation
torpid bolt
about everything, really, https://www.python.org/about/
wicked trench
Not there where is required compiling
sudden basin
Cant help with that but curious where are you located?
gilded valley
This channel isn't directly for recruiting or job hunting
its more for discussion of the general area of careers
open patio
there's a link for some job postings in the channel topic
sudden basin
Curiously for myself, anyone here from Toronto have any idea what the health of internships or entry level positions are around here?
This being canada i expect less of those compared to the states but im curious how some people got their start from Toronto
ember sluice
Hello, would you recommend learning another language next to Python like Java? And should I learn about algorithms and computer science before getting into Data science (AI)?
radiant moon
up to you
if you're trying to get a job, learn whatever languages that job is looking for
if you just like learning languages, sure, learn Java; it's kinda similar and kinda different
can't answer about "algorithms" and "computer science" because those sound like university subjects, and I never went
ember sluice
In the future I want to work as a data scientist but I feel like learning syntax and python libraries is not the first thing I should do
radiant moon
well, learning some programming language is probably a fine first thing
python is probably king in data science
ember sluice
I already know python and now learning data analysis with pandas but I feel I'm missing something, maybe
radiant moon
well ... I don't know what it is 🙂
find a local meetup; see if you can meet a real data scientist.
sterile vault
If you want to go to data science, R looks like a first pick
Some do stats in R, some do stats in Python, so it may be beneficial to learn both.
Also, i've heard that some AWS Lambda pipelines are set up with Scala, but can't say more about it.
And while SQL is not often considered a programming language, it's almost mandatory
dry sapphire
I would say Python is better for data science right now
you should be good @ statistics and linear algebra.
zenith siren
Anyone know where to find an entry level python job more for experience in the work force than for the cash...
hushed kestrel
Where about are you?
And how much python do you know?
I've been doing a huge job search thing and getting python interviews
zenith siren
Decent amount willing to learn more if needed...Done a couple scraping projects have knowledge in ML but never done anything big yet. Ohio so not many jobs without a degree. Preferably remote would help since still in school. @hushed kestrel
thin vigil
stark trench
Decent amount willing to learn more if needed...Done a couple scraping projects have knowledge in ML but never done anything big yet. Ohio so not many jobs without a degree. Preferably remote would help since still in school. @hushed kestrel
@zenith siren I could set you up with some remote work.
But pay will probably be zero in the beginning
shell verge
He everyone. Hope you having a great sunday. I have a question about Github
How should i be visible on Github? Does the name of account on github affects recrutation process?
Should i leave my Nickname or should i change it for my name and surname?
Would apreciate some advice from somone that was at a job interview for a programmer.
shell verge
That's what i was thinking
Thanks!
and another question. What does future boss search in my code on github? Any info about that? What should i focus on other than working code. PEP8 techniques? OOP?
torpid bolt
if you want to be sure your recruiter sees your github, just put it on your CV, nickname or real name won't matter then.
ideally a github account with code shouldn't be necessary to find work, but it's often seen as a good indicator, so it's good to have one, if you have things to put into it, just don't try to fill one with forks of probjects you never contributed to or empty repositories, as then it's not a good look, as some people really do try to exploit the github visibility, and just fork a lot of projects to look very busy/involved, and i would assume they just try to make up for lack of skills, just trying to fake it.
if you do have code and they look into it, then they'll try to asses your competency as a programmer, i would look for clean and readable code, with documentation in it, and then at a larger level, good use of patterns, making code reusable by providing good abstractions, etc, but that usually require more analysis to see, so things like good project structures, good names to variables, consistent code style, etc.
shell verge
Thanksfor advice! For now, i am making some Kivy based projects. And if they work as i want and the code is PEP8 reviewed, i put them in my github to show how i solve problems and such. I did not contribute to any of open-source projects yet just because i don't really know how but i will get there.
torpid bolt
❤️
shell verge
I know you would love that i am working with Kivy 😄 I always wanted to make small, working android apps
nothing high-end, but low profile for now
torpid bolt
contributing to an open source project can happen more quickly than you think, if you use a library like kivy, and find some bug or possible improvement in the code, you fork the project in your github, make the change, and create a Pull Request from it, easy as that, then we hopefuly give you feedback or merge it if it's good already, when it's merged that's it, you contributed to the lib 🙂
try not to judge your own work as low or high profile, you never know, other people might find that more impressive than you would think
no need to prime them into thinking it's not important
shell verge
try not to judge your own work as low or high profile, you never know, other people might find that more impressive than you would think
no need to prime them into thinking it's not important
@torpid bolt That is some really good advice. Thanks, i will never think about projects like that ever again.
And another question comes to my mind
When i work on some project. Let's say it is a button that does stuff. Is it ok to look at my previous projects that has the code that would help me to implement it in new project and try to recreate for new project usage?
I know that i supose to write Python modules polymorphic, but is it ok to do this at workplace? To search old projects and search for an anwser there?
torpid bolt
making code reusable, while a useful habit, is not a goal in itself, sometime trying to make something reusalbe makes it too complex, for little gain, it's normal that some of your code is specific to the project, or even that some parts of the code that looks similar, but have subtle differences, it's not always something you can, or should, avoid. It's totally fine to look back at how you did something and reuse that in a new project, sometime it's just a starting point and you need to tweak it to make it fit the new goal, and sometime you discover that you actually stumbled on something that is quite reusable, and it's a good time to make it an actual library to use in your future projects, or share with the world.
but you never really know how reusable things are going to be before trying to reuse them.
workplace mostly cares that you get the job done, it doesn't really matter how, as long as it's legal, of course, and it won't cause more problems in the future.
nobody expects you to remember everything you did before and to produce the perfect code the first time, we look up stuff all the time, even in our own past projects.
shell verge
Good to know. The things you say gives me hope to get a job as a Python Dev in a future. I need to learn few frameworks yet, but i'll get there one day.
workplace mostly cares that you get the job done, it doesn't really matter how, as long as it's legal, of course, and it won't cause more problems in the future.
@torpid bolt
About that. Let's say my future boss wants to make some kind of module that will find bluetooth devices in 1m radius. Is it ok to use in work community made package such as PyblueZ or similiar?
or should i write my own package from scratch?
pybluez is just an example
torpid bolt
it depends, some companies are not very friendly with open source, but it's getting really rare these days imho, it also depends on the license, some licenses are much harder to some business models than others, companies tend to shy away from gpl stuff, as they don't want to share their own code that uses it, MIT/BSD/Apache licenses are generaly unproblematic, and LGPL can be fine (as you only need to contribute changes you make to the library, not your code, but it can get murky depending on how you distribute your app)
usually, when you don't want open source code, your company is fine with using code from closed source vendors, they are willing to pay license costs to use a module that fits their need.
and choosing to implement your modules from scratch is usually justified either by the lack of options that fits your use case, or it being so core to your business that you want the ability to modify it easily and make it evolve with your business.
"build or buy" is a common way to put this choice, even when "buying" seems free because it's open source, it usually not, as even useing some external code means learning how it works, checking the license is fine, integrating it into your process, and maybe having to contribute patches to it if you discover bugs in it, nothing is ever free, and "buying" implies all these costs, not just license costs.
of course, building is not free either, engineers time is expensive, and you might be solving problems that have already been perfectly solved elsewhere, by people with all the resources to make a better solution you'll ever will, and in such case building your own is certainly a bad idea.
torpid bolt
you're welcome! 🙂
shut geyser
I have some friend working in finance for banks, every line of code and decision have to be auditable and buying a product (like SAS ) spare you writing tons of reports and having to justify someone else code
inner wrenBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @round mulch until 2020-03-08 17:20 (9 minutes and 59 seconds) (reason: burst rule: sent 8 messages in 10s).
round mulch
srry i was trying to skip a cutscene in a game but it turns out i was typing in discord
mellow agate
no problem
@vapid jay this is an english speaking server, please speak english to the best of your ability
you will also have to adjust your username to conform to our name rules: https://pythondiscord.com/pages/rules#nickname-policy
hallow nacelle
Hi can anyone tell me the best OCR for licence plate as moving object
vapid jay
Is it possible to get a dev job in a year?
brazen whale
Hello, I have mainly python skills and some reactjs and js combined with some HTML and CSS... I'm looking for advice on how to monetize my skills... Can anyone recommend a way... Freelancing? Tutoring? Thanks in advance
Please tag me if you have any suggestions 👌🏻
ember pelican
@brazen whale anything works as long as you know how to advertise yourself.
brazen whale
I wish there were a tutorial for this... I sort of don't show my whole capacity, I'm gonna start by organizing my GitHub I guess
vernal yoke
@brazen whale you can look on upwork or freelancer.com to get started or fiverr if you can advertise yourself well and offer a good service
brazen whale
Thanks for the advice... I just think there are a lot of great coders already on those websites... Nonetheless, I'll create my profile, show my GitHub projects and try... Why not? I really need to find something... Thanks again
radiant moon
believe it or not, great coders are in very short supply
that's why they get paid a lot
hushed kestrel
'great' is the question here
mystic abyss
How do I apply if all these places by me want a degree or two+ years of experience. Would my BA in English help at all? I’m just looking for entry
gilded valley
Any degree and any work experience will help
mystic abyss
But they all say computer science degree and 2+ years working python and other languages. I just learned Python and am familiar with css, javasxript, and ruby
vapid jay
@mystic abyss
Job read are wish lists from what I’ve learned
If you have a year or less exp, have a good attitude, cool to talk to etc, they might take a chance on you
tight hollow
believe it or not, great coders are in very short supply
@radiant moon seems like entry level is saturated, however.. maybe it is different depending on location but this is what I see in ATL georgia
warm spruce
Yeah, where did those "great" coders go?
mint citrus
tight hollow
yup
whereas more and more of the self-taught folks trying to make it into the entry level thus competing for lower and lower wages. Companies have adapted their hiring strategy to this; they can cast a wide net and skim from the top
white karma
Now what can you do to set yourself apart from the rest of the crowd?
tight hollow
create something complex and preferably using frameworks / guidelines used in the company already
white karma
Solid advice
tight hollow
it helps to find a way to talk to someone working there to find out about the latter
without a padded resume (ie prior work exp.) projects/some certs are really the only way to go
that or nepotism 😄
shut geyser
5 hours of interview and 5 hours of train today
Will be exhausting
Hope they will pay me food, bit since it's NL, i'm scared to have a slice of bread and Gouda
sharp vale
Gl man
shut geyser
Nah, some python one
The Java went sorta good, they were very nice
I panicked at a 3sum problem tho
Benefit/pay/career sounds much better on it, but there is a week long assesment + an onsite after
The other is doing some experiment with Python, some connecting to PLCs, some data science, some webapp for the worker and R&D
Much more my skillset and "vocation" as an ex scientist
sharp vale
In the interview for my current job I said tuples arent indexed
and youre worried about a 3sum solution
youll be fine my man
vivid sparrow
I should take an apprenticeship? It pays £7k-£14k y/r (UK) full time. I've learned coding/web dev for 3+ years. 12yr employment gap. I have a github, but it's trash, noone likes my github.
sharp vale
Its generally a good idea unless you have a very strong work ethic at which point you might just be better off working on your portfolio
3+ years should be enough to land you a job though
Just get these projects done
vivid sparrow
Thanks. I can't think of any problems that really need solving though.
sharp vale
I can relate to that. Instead of thinking to solve problems, it's a good idea to start by just recreating
Creating an airbnb clone is one I always recommend
for webdev people
It involves a lot of different skills to build a website like airbnb
Alternatively a flight booking website, something of this caliber
vivid sparrow
Thanks for suggestions. I appreciate that.
I started a facebook clone. There is a lot to do.
sharp vale
If you dont find it fun anymore then go over to the next project
you've learned your lessons - apply them to the next project
this way eventually you'll have a portfolio and you'll be able to demonstrate progress
vapid jay
0
sharp vale
No problem! Good luck!
glossy basin
Are there any recruiters here that work in London ?
mild zenith
We don't really have recruiters here. Not really the purpose of the server or channel
@glossy basin But if you look at the channel description there are a couple links that could help you out
shut geyser
For thoses curious my interview went well and i'll probably get an offer
Other stuff is asking me to produce a full Java thing within next week
I'll try because we never know
gilded valley
Thats good @shut geyser - what sort of company was the interview at? (besides one that writes Java)
shut geyser
Hmm i.think it would be doxing if i was given details
gilded valley
fair enough
shut geyser
But it's a smallish company in a niche market that needs a soft dev to make the factory run
There is already 2 seniors
They got some millions of funding and a factory
Hope they will make a good offer
I asked a bit more than my current pay, but maybe not enough
There will be a bit of bio, a bit of web dev, bit of data, lots of python
Sounds really cool
shadow moss
Good luck
gilded valley
Good luck - having a mix of stuff sounds much more interesting than just doing web dev or just doing most things
shut geyser
Maybe !
shadow moss
Or not, you get inch deep into a ton of stuff
shut geyser
They seem to be focused on quality rather than quantity so
shadow moss
Arguments can be made for both types of setups
shut geyser
Yeah, getting deep can be cool as well
But i'm more a jack of all trades i think
I smell horrible though, went into a room that smell like animal house, now the smell is stuck to my clothes
tight hollow
Nice @shut geyser !
glossy basin
@mild zenith Thanks! I'll have a look
marsh wind
For thoses curious my interview went well and i'll probably get an offer
@shut geyser that's awesome, fingers crossed you get an offer.
I myself will have another interview (will be 3rd if we count the phone one) with same company on Wedensday, this time more HR focused (the previous was tech one where I was slow AF writng simple code on whiteboard 😂)
shut geyser
nice, hope it will be fine
here i still smell like mice
horrible
it's on my skin and clothes
marsh wind
yikes
I hope too. So far it was quite a smooth and pleasent process
hopefully HR+CTO/Co-founder will be fine too
shut geyser
ahah
yeah i guess :p
i looked at the assignement and it's to provide the backend to a angular front
time to learn what's JAVA, do simple REST and angular in some days i guess
i think it's pretty simple so i should have something running with frankensteining tutorials
gilded valley
Springboot is depressing - but there is one lightweight framework thats meant to be good
shut geyser
i don't even understand what i'm supposed to do with spring boot lol
gilded valley
Yeah, Spark is the one I was thinking of
shadow moss
Spark is pretty good for java
indigo sleet
well they were talking about java
shadow moss
I know
sorry, after being Java SRE, I have PTSD
switch to .Net SRE and much happier
gilded valley
I'm surprised by that - the two sound roughly equally rubbish
also, sre is site reliability engineer right?
wanton mica
shadow moss
yep
.Net really isn't that bad
it's not like everything around it is security nightmare
tomcat/spring boot are security nightmares
JDKs are either Oracle (Hello lawyer) or OpenJDK (Maybe will work)
gilded valley
Is that just because they're very open source?
or are there more underlying issues?
shadow moss
and code is class nightmare
very verbose
and most of time, the code bases are ancient as hell because if you were starting new company/code base, most probably wouldn't pick Java
Charlie, alot is open source
gilded valley
I get that a shit ton of stuff is open source, I'm just surprised that Springboot/Tomcat are especially egregious and wondered if it was because the .net equivalents are more closed source or developed exclusively by ms or something
vapid jay
@shut geyser how many years professional exp do you have?
shut geyser
not much
been in my pharma job since a bit more than a year and i have 2 year of PhD behind
vapid jay
@quaint finch how long did you freelance?
vapid jay
When did you feel comfortable enough with programming to start freelancing?
vapid jay
For someone who is looking to get a job within 1 - 2 years (self-taught), what type advice would you offer?
vapid jay
Then it snowballed?
vapid jay
From your friend?
quaint finch
Sometimes, I outsourced and pocketed a few.
Nah, From clients in general.
How old are you?
quaint finch
Not bad.
vapid jay
January 1st exactly.
quaint finch
New years resolution eh?
vapid jay
😄
tight hollow
On it's face it seems like building scripts/automating for people is less monetize-able than something like say webdev
Also interested, how you were able to market yourself early on? Was it a challenge that people didn't realise what could be done/automated via python unlike something more widely understood like "build me a website"or "build me an app"?
@quaint finch
quaint finch
Well, There's always a way to market yourself if you know the target audience.
Web Devs have seen a wave of saturation.
People who wanted web automation were people who were acquainted and had specialized needs.
and a higher budget.
tight hollow
True. Freelance web automation dev is what i want to do, need to spend more time getting to know that audience.
quaint finch
I started out as a web designer.
Making websites with vue
and react
The problem with freelancing is, there's a lot of compettiton out there for a new freelancer.
tight hollow
Vue is to react as flask is to django?
quaint finch
The indian ones can beat any price
shut geyser
@marsh wind nah i gtfo when my friend was on her 6th year of it and only one of the 10 student of my PI finished a PhD
marsh wind
@shut geyser ooph. Which country? US?
shut geyser
Belgium
marsh wind
Wos
shut geyser
they have 50% drop out rate
due to "lack of funding"
aka what they put on your letter so you get jobless money :p
marsh wind
Well that sucks
still mantle
I think the best way to get freelance work is to host events and meetups and stuff, fostering an environment where people meet and learn. Do talks and workshops there.
It worked for me.
Do a lot of volunteer work.
And dev karma pays back.,
hushed kestrel
If you wanted to really succeed I think you develop a niche, figure out your sort of client and then find your clients and pitch them your service
burnt tiger
@still mantle Indeed, volunteer work is a great way to build experience. Particularly if it's part of an open source project so that you can publish your contributions in a resume. Community dev events are a great way to network, at the events in my area there's always a decent volume of recruiters.
karmic yacht
Any mechanical engineer willing to answer some questions?? Im intereted in your career path.
quaint finch
If you wanted to really succeed I think you develop a niche, figure out your sort of client and then find your clients and pitch them your service
@hushed kestrel Sounds much easier than it actually is.
But 100% right.
shut geyser
Got a good offer 🥳
marsh wind
congrats!
gilded valley
Congratulations
viral ridge
dry sapphire
<@&267629731250176001>
mild zenith
@rare fjord If you would please direct your attention to the channel description, you can see that we do not in fact allow for recruitment here
rare fjord
Ah my apologies. Is there a channel where this is allowed or is this rule serverwide?
mild zenith
It's serverwide. Having to moderate and check into every recruitment posting would be a huge burden on us, as we'd have to verify them so that our users don't get screwed over. As such we just have the two links mentioned in the description
rare fjord
I understand although I fail to see why your users would be screwed over, we're paid by the companies that we recruit for.
mild zenith
You are, but there's not guarantee that every single other recruitment offer is.
It'd take significant manpower to look into all of the potential ones, and we're all volunteers here
And since education is our main goal here, we decided that it's out of scope for what we do
I appreciate you being understanding about it
!rule 6 @rare fjord And just as a clarification, we do already have this mentioned in our rules, which you should have read as part of the !accept process when joining our server. Also note that attempting to solicit users via DM is also prohibited, and would result in a ban. If you're here to learn then we're more than happy to have you. Otherwise this really isn't the right place for you
inner wrenBOT
mild zenith
Just to make sure everything is on the table
sterile vault
Congrats with the offer!
shut geyser
thanks bud
polar lantern
looking for an internship
any one could help?
gilded valley
This server isn't for advertising or recruitment. But if there are specific questions you have, people here can probably answer
polar lantern
and i need to know the best freelance site to work with
wintry imp
will anyone even hire u remotely if u dont have a degree ??
and i was just wondering how is the remote job recuritment process is like ?
polar lantern
I just finished my bachelor degree
white karma
I’d also like to know if getting a remote job without a degree is possible
wintry imp
ppl usually start looking for internship around their finaly year of degree dont they ?and like uni also provide u with it ? @polar lantern
is it like different for different unis?
polar lantern
i was already in Company from my 3rd Year but i am looking for an international Company Trying to get more Experience
white karma
After looking online, apparently you can code remote if you got the skills to back yourself up
No degree required
white karma
Whatever the job requires really
Like as long as you’ve got what they’re looking for you’ll be good. I think the biggest companies require a degree but even then
obsidian ridge
@shut geyser Congrats 🙂
tight hollow
Fully remote jobs are becoming a lot more common it seems. I have 0 professional experience and even i was interviewed recently for a fully remote position
white karma
Squid that’s incredibly encouraging
tight hollow
I don't have really anything but a basic portfolio and a connection through a bootcamp
I was bummed bc I thought I'd get it. Got to the 3rd interview and was told no a week later, never answered why
wintry imp
ohh cool that sounds inspiring enough tho
did u look for local remote job or international??
tight hollow
It was in a different state
tight hollow
Are you in uni?
wintry imp
i dropped out coz of some issues
like in my final year
im almost 19 now so dont think im joining uni again ;-;
tight hollow
Wait you finished 3 years of uni before your 19th birthday?
wintry imp
undergraduate is only 3 years
tight hollow
bachelors degree (even unrelated field) is pretty useful but I'm padding my portfolio as much as i can whenever i have the time
white karma
What do you pad it with if you don’t mind me asking?
tight hollow
Projects, preferably ones that use tech/best practices from the company's existing stack/ workflow
@white karma
white karma
Would you consider them “simple” projects for what they require?
tight hollow
I'm not opposed to help desk, but not all helpdesk is created equal
wintry imp
@tight hollow can we like personally work on the projects that companies are looking for
instead of like getitng experience from other companies ??
related to it
tight hollow
I think collaboration projects are great
Bc it's likely that is what you'd do as part of a team in a company
white karma
Can you just add onto a collab or do you need to approach the collaborators first
tight hollow
I don't mean actual projects the company is working on, but rather your own project using the same tools they would use
The same frameworks and best practice standards, so you can point to your project and say hey, you say guys use this in your existing environment, well I am familiar with that, look at it here in my project where i demonstrate this
wintry imp
squid does ur project have to be like big ??
tight hollow
I mean i should be clear that I'm just as newb at this as anyone
Like I work at a pizza store as my day job.
But i mean think about it, idk if sheer size of a project would matter for most companies..?
white karma
Probably not size but complexity/marketability/functionality
Though I’m gonna be real, how complex would a fresh programmer need to make their projects to stand out
tight hollow
I was thinking more like readability/ modifiability/ maintainability
vapid jay
i wonder, if you're applying to a cs univ, will it help to know a couple languages?
tight hollow
I hope someone with experience either from the recruiting/ hiring side or the employee side can chime in
wintry imp
they asked me what i wanted to do after finishing my internship i said i wanna open my non-profit organisation and it was for a ui/ux job haha
i realised that u need to say things that they want to hear tbh
i feel so dumb saying that haha
white karma
Sounds good to me, shame I’m busy this week :<
wintry imp
we can fix suitable time
but i wanna build my portfolio before even thinking about interviews lol
no ones gonna call u for interview if u dont have a good portfolioahhaa
tight hollow
Whatbhave you guys worked on so far?
woeful spruce
I don't know if your portfolio has to be that vat
employers are desparate for programmers right now
I mean if you are tyring to join Google or apple that is a different story, but a more run of the mill company, I can't imagine they would expect that impressive of a portfolio
wintry imp
what about remote @woeful spruce
woeful spruce
remote is tougher to get
I agree with that
because well...everyone wants to work from home haha
and they need to trust you are good at your craft
tight hollow
Idk what location and type of positions you're talking about but it's actually been pretty selective from my experience
tight hollow
@woeful spruce midwest is definitely a different story. Entry level IT is pretty selective over here in Atlanta ga we're
woeful spruce
but it also depends which line of work you are aiming for
oh IT
sorry, I am in the data realm
tight hollow
Programming too
woeful spruce
and well, wasn't too daunting to get into
and I see how difficult it has been for my department to snatch up developers
so they get them straight out of university/college
woeful spruce
big cities do have more competition, that is true
I just don't think it is fair to expect a vast portfolio from a new grad or someone who has only programmed a few years
it is a catch 22
so I hope you guys catch a break at some point
I would also hope the interview would be more scenario based than anything, in order to show off your ability to think on your feet
tight hollow
Mhm. Just need that foot in the door
wintry imp
any idea how strong portfolio do u need to have for remote or sponsored job ?
tight hollow
In my interview they put a strong emphasis on personality - not everyone is cut out for remote work. So being able to demonstrate initiative, self-starterism, the ability to work unsupervised, the ability to communicate effectively without ability to have daily face to face interactions.. that kind of thing
wintry imp
def me 😄 but need some work on some of those abit
btw thnx squid ur info was quite useful
tight hollow
You can get creative with how you choose to demonstrate those qualities. Anyone can say that they have those things, but not everyone shows a time scheduling or tracker app that they develops and use for their daily tasks to stay productive
Or you made a web app after you got home from work and the fact that you put in 2 hours every day after work on your own is evidenced within your tracker app
wintry imp
ohhh but dont u have git for that ?
tight hollow
Just some ideas about showcasing those qualities through project choice and data
I mean you can put it on GitHub of course or you could just bring it in on your laptop and show them directly. But if we're talking about a remote position, the interview will likely take place over the phone or video conference
But you get the picture. I mainly just thinking out loud here
And sure thing
marsh wind
Thanks
It was combined
HR+CTO +CEO
Started talking with one, ended with 3:)
And in the end they said they'll send me an offer asap
gilded valley
Congrats to both of you!
shut geyser
how many in the company ?
marsh wind
About 40 I think. they outsource some work to freelance
So I am not sure 100% as they told about 50 people now work on different projects.
And their LinkedIn doesn't show all
Thanks Charlie
shut geyser
niceµ
marsh wind
And yours?
shut geyser
Hmm i think its around 90 people but 2 other direct olleagues
shut geyser
will move to NL prob
marsh wind
oh ok
shut geyser
job is NL based, currently i'm in Belgium
marsh wind
I remember that you are French and that you said you were doing phd in Belgium
yeah, make sense 🙂
marsh wind
I am fine with France for now 🙂
gilded valley
I'd love to work in Canada - but it seems fairly difficult to move there for just a junior job
shut geyser
are you in a big city @marsh wind ?
marsh wind
@shut geyser Ile-de-France
shut geyser
nice salaries then 😄
marsh wind
We'll see :)
marsh wind
For the first job can be not stellar anyway
can't live decently there without one
@shut geyser 😂 tell this to someone who did PhD here lol
Well OK, we are two, but we still were two PhDs with little above minimal salary
marsh wind
And tbh our living didn't suck xD
Ofc we weren't and still aren't in Paris itself
Suburbs
shut geyser
yah
marsh wind
But yeah the area is expensive
shut geyser
nice one?
shut geyser
yah
in my childhood i lived in a shitty one
now there is like
"bio jewelery shop"
Gentrification is a bitch
marsh wind
Idk if you know many of them, else I could give town names heh
Oh
I know there are some really bad ones
And for short time we lived in small apartment in a distant but really rich one
marsh wind
Well I can dm you if you want, this kind of info is useless for people in server snd pretty off topic now
shut geyser
yeah true and useless for me in the end too :p
next time i go there i will dm you if i have time for a drink 🙂
shut geyser
having a CTO/CEO in my network 🤔
cobalt owl
I got moved to a Python project from Java
been working with it for a while and can create code quickly
if I want to interview for other Python positions, what will I be tested on?
flat tree
The usual stuff first. Datastructure related problems, sometimes tests, sometimes whiteboard problems. Depends on where you go. Time complexity related stuff. Also depends on what role you're applying for
shut geyser
yeah depends hugely on the company
if you know your shit in Java it shouldn't be too hard though?
cobalt owl
I know my algorithms / data structures / whiteboard coding stuff
but how about like Python language specifics?
like how _functionsLikeThis versus __functionsLikeThat
flat tree
Not really. Primarily cause python doesn't do a lot of super secret stuff, and also cause usually people ask about programming ability, the language showcases itself when you solve a problem.
Perhaps list comprehensions though, that's python specific and common enough to be asked about
shut geyser
if they don't accept you for dumb syntax you should run away
halcyon pelican
Question for the group:
I am currently an Apache pilot in the Army and learning python in my free time. I really enjoy building tools and apps and I think I would like to pursue a career related to programming. It is completely unrelated to my profession right now. When I get home from this deployment I am going to finish my bachelors degree. I will be completing my bachelors degree online. Right now I am looking at the software engineering program at ASU online, and the Data Analytics program at Purdue Global. My question is, the prospective careers are so vague for both of these degree programs. Realistically, what careers would I be best suited for with either of these programs?
hushed kestrel
@quaint finch It's a lot of specific work that you need to do in order to succeed and if you don't, you'll live a horrible life- but the work itself isn't hard. Establishing reliability and being able to prove that you can do something is 98% the way there to at the very least, making a living.
vast shoal
@halcyon pelican It might be hard to find someone who can comment on those specifics programs, but in general, software engineering programs enable you to work as a developer in many different domains. In my experience, domain knowledge is a bonus but rarely required, it's your technical knowledge that really counts. You can pick up domain knowledge as you go. As for data analytics, many different industries have increasingly developed informatics infrastructure and produce a lot of data that can be processed and used for useful ends, so the demand for people with skills in data analysis and data science is on the rise. If it sounds vague, it's because your skills aren't really going to be limited to any one domain. Developers are needed everywhere.
woeful spruce
hello everyone
haughty vault
Hey guys, i'm going to be done with the codeacademy python course soon. Not sure where to look after. Where do I find what skills are useful to eventually get a job? I don't mind going to school either i'm just a bit lost in the sea of information
woeful spruce
best way to find, unfortunately, is to look at job postings around where you live and see what skills they are seeking
haughty vault
thanks! makes sense, thats exactly what I should be looking at
woeful spruce
guess you also need to figure out what area you want to get into
haughty vault
Do job postings look for "python" as a skill or do they usually look for a specific ability that just needs to be done
I don't have a preference when it comes to personal taste yet but i'm sure i'll find that as I learn more
woeful spruce
I'm not sure about that to be honest, I haven't looked at any postings in a while
I personally seeked out jobs tha tI felt I can use python in
haughty vault
no problem, I just shoot questions in the dark just in case anyone has an answer
open patio
there are job postings in this channel topic, if you'd like to look at some
woeful spruce
and a company that gave me autonomy to use what I see fit in order to script things
there are?
oh at the top, duh
I did not know Python Engineer was a thing
haughty vault
@marsh wind Another guy from Ile de france! What city are you from? i'm from Evry/Lisses
also I cant seem to see any of the job postings, is it in this channel?
woeful spruce
Discussion: Python and the world of work | NOT FOR RECRUITMENT | For recruitment and jobs, see https://www.python.org/jobs/ and https://www.pythonjobshq.com/
open patio
yup, up at the top
marsh wind
@haughty vault well I am not life "from" from, but yeah I am here now, in Savigny
quite close by
haughty vault
I mean I live in california now so I get it! Pretty cool either way small world
Did you move for work?
haughty vault
crazy
marsh wind
nah, not really
haughty vault
did you get your phd yet or still working on it
ember sluice
Is it necessary for me to be able to implement data structures with puthon like linked lists for example?
gilded valley
Necessary for what?
haughty vault
grats!
marsh wind
haha that was quite some time ago 🙂 thanks
ember sluice
@gilded valley proving that I have understood the data structure
gilded valley
Well. Id guess if you can't implement a data structure, then you don't necessarily fully understand it
sterile vault
Damn it. Had an account on upwork that i used long long before (wanted to do Unity freelancing, didn't work out). Went looking though it, saw "0 connects" and apparently i have to pay even to have the ability to ask for a job here. Reminds me of the time in high school when i got some money copyrighting and spent them to access "premium" offers on the same site.
tough grotto
@haughty vault im about to start the python code academy pro course, did you find it really helpful?
haughty vault
yes, I think its nice to get an overview of things with a LOT of help for each steps. When something is confusing theres usually a video to help learn line by line. THOUGH I also just signed up on checkio (a site that gives you exercices) and even in the very easiest part I need to look at solutions to figure out a lot of them
I think its important to learn from multiple sources or its really hard to write anything on your own
also @tough grotto because a lot of things are introduced slowly they teach you how to do things the long way which might help some but for me I like to learn more effective ways if possible
tough grotto
@haughty vault how long did it take you to do the whole thing
haughty vault
Not sure, about 7 days of multiple hours a day. Sometimes I did more or less
haughty vault
I did "learn python 3 pro"
tough grotto
ohh
i got a pro account
i found this discord server that sold pro accounts for like 20
haughty vault
nice
wintry imp
i saw this job post n they were paying lik 65k to85k for senior python engineer is that normal??
not like im one but i thought junior is atleast aroung that range ??
gilded valley
Depends on a huge amount of factors. Don't even know what currency that is.
marsh wind
@wintry imp country and location within the country even matters a lot
vast shoal
Mostly depends on location, though.
wintry imp
it euro but ye sounds fair enough now 😄
gilded valley
Even in some of the more expensive cities 65k for junior sounds like its higher up in the spectrum
marsh wind
if it is like France or Germany I think 65-85k is fine (for senior)
and junior is more like 30-40
marsh wind
what do you mean?
gilded valley
In London, pretty standard junior salaries are like 25-50k gbp
wintry imp
isnt 30 or 40 too low ?
gilded valley
no
wintry imp
oh yea if u do the converison its pretty same with here
marsh wind
and more likely you will be looking for 25-35 for first job
well, 25 maybe is too low, but those exist too
but 30-35 for young grad, totally
wintry imp
what about the skill ?
marsh wind
well skills will likely determine whether you are on the lower end (30) or closer to higher end (40)
vast shoal
65-85k is great in europe
wintry imp
oh fair enough.
vast shoal
If it was dollars in the US, it'd be low
wintry imp
i keep hearing that there is lot of demand of progammers nowadays
marsh wind
sure
gilded valley
You'll probably see a lot of talk about US (and especially San Francisco) salaries which are completely different
wintry imp
but given the pay it seems a bit
vast shoal
65-85k is super high in europe compared to almost all other industries
marsh wind
well, I will let you know what kind of offer I will get 🙂
vast shoal
My dad is 60 and he earns like 33k
wintry imp
here mid level starts with 100k+ its AUD so
if u convert it ig uess its gonna be pretty same
vast shoal
You gotta take into account taxes and cost of living, yeah
indigo sleet
100k aud is about 56k eur
vast shoal
Also that, lol
white karma
Now suppose you land an 85k remote job in a rural area
wintry imp
i knew it was low didnt expect to be that low
white karma
You’re set for life
indigo sleet
I too am a fan of unicorns
marsh wind
haha
gilded valley
There aren't really jobs like that in rural areas for software
marsh wind
I guess they mean you live in rural cheap area but get remote 85k job?
vast shoal
My coworker is moving from Stockholm to Barcelona and he's gonna continue working remotely. It's not rural, but cost of living is still way lower there.
That's a pretty sweet deal.
marsh wind
yeah, I heard that northern capital are expensive AF, Stockholm, Copenhahen
vast shoal
It is >.<
marsh wind
I'd love to live in Portugal and have that kind of remote job 🙂
vast shoal
I'm seriously considering it, tbh.
gilded valley
Oh wow - I was curious how Stockholm compared to London, and Stockholm is substantially cheaper
wintry imp
can u land ur first job as remote job lol?
marsh wind
unlikely
gilded valley
Pretty much no
wintry imp
or is it like pigs cant fly
vast shoal
@gilded valley In what regards?
vast shoal
Seems to be mostly housing that's more expensive in London.
I already think housing is very expensive here, but those numbers for London are pretty extreme.
I rent a 3-roomer outside the city center, and my rent lines up almost exactly with that site, so that seems to be accurate at least.
marsh wind
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=France&country2=United+Kingdom&city1=Paris&city2=London
@gilded valley lol it says Paris is more expensive than London
at least on the bar plot of CoL
wintry imp
y would u rent tho when u can just buy a house on mortgage?
marsh wind
oh it seems that CoL does not include rent
"You would need around 5,303.80€ (4,675.49£) in London to maintain the same standard of life that you can have with 4,900.00€ in Paris (assuming you rent in both cities). "
wintry imp
this is sad
marsh wind
nah. It's not bad in EU really.
idk about morgages yet
I do know a couple who got it in Paris a year ago
gilded valley
You need at least 5% for a deposit in the UK (and realistically probably more like 10-20%), and then house prices are very high - so pretty much the only way a lot of people can afford one is via their parents
marsh wind
I see
wintry imp
oh fair enough
wintry imp
i think its pretty much same here
marsh wind
where, Stockholm?
gilded valley
15% is pretty much what you need for a reasonable mortgage here
vast shoal
@marsh wind Yeah
marsh wind
well, when we both get jobs I will interrgoate that couple on how it worked in here 😂
I heard tho that there are some companies here that can help you with upfront payment
gilded valley
you should start building good credit now - apparently that helps
vast shoal
There are loans like that, but I wouldn't really feel comfortable going that deep into debt.
shut geyser
housing quality is a bit better in London i think
Paris keep their 3/400 years building
nothing work, everything crumble
not allowed to build higher
also
gilded valley
London also has a lot of old buildings - but I don't hink as many
shut geyser
so space get tinier as the number of people expand
gilded valley
Height restrictions on buildings are the dumbest things
marsh wind
well in fact it is for old part of Paris
which is around 2 miilions people or so
Paris+suburbs is above 12 millions afaik
shut geyser
there was a 1 million € 30 m² this month in Paris i think
magic leaf
so
my trial period just finished
and they told me they want me to stay
i was supposed to get paid 7e/h
i was there for 8h whole month
we monitor how many time we spend per task on trello
they told me at the start that that's for performance reviews
spent/estimated hours
now they're telling me they only pay for the hours on trello ??
any ideas what to do?
they didn't give me any contract, just NDA
shut geyser
You can work without a contract ?
shadow moss
without country/contract, it's hard to say what to do
marsh wind
@shut geyser just received my offer 😊
Out of curiosity, did they say for you in offer anything about transport reimbursement, social security, equities?
shut geyser
It's NL so it's different i guess
But apparently i have reimbursment, obligatory social participation, and the thing like
marsh wind
Right, makes sense
shut geyser
"The more you wait the more you can buy shares"
marsh wind
🤔
shut geyser
You stay *
Solid pay but no shares is not unusual in Paris afaik
From my sample size of Parisian devs i know
If they're part of bigger companies on the market they're offered stocks at better price
marsh wind
Yeah I derived similar from glassdoor and LinkedIn stats
Like median for data scientist is 42-44k
shut geyser
Often devs, even from ingenieur school settles for lower because they don't know better
marsh wind
But that usually does not represent the starting
marsh wind
P. S. Forgot to mention, I guess, not dev but data science position. Although I think it's similar
marsh wind
Start up, about 3-4 yrs old, smart city apps
topaz walrus
What is the general opinion on python institutes certifications? Very mixed messages from articles on the web, was curious what you guys think
white karma
Depends on if the institutes are affiliated with accredited schools really
tight hollow
I've been looking for junior dev jobs but recently said Bah and started applying for office/inventory/documentation positions
in hopes of finding a desk job where I can implement python
Actually getting some offers that way, maybe it's not that great for my resume but hell, it's good to have options.
The only other offer before this was an IT internship role working for the local government for 10 USD/hour
rough out here
vapid jay
Someone told me that the market for software engineers and developers is crashing is that true?
white karma
Crashing how
vapid jay
I don’t know it was on r/cscareerquestions
I really wanna get a job as software dev or engineer so this makes me worried a lot
white karma
He doesn’t say that the programming job market specifically is tanking
vapid jay
What does he say is tanking because I don’t understand some of it
white karma
He says the markets in general are tanking. Due to the corona virus
tight hollow
This will likely push the Work from home trend, which has already started to grow two- three fold year over year, to go exponential
vapid jay
So I shouldn’t worry?
white karma
I hope it pushes the work from home trend
And nah don’t worry, worrying doesn’t do much good.
vapid jay
I really don’t want this to affect me getting a job
lusty pawn
I am looking for some small short term scripting gigs. So far I have only browsed around on Upwork but it seems like there is a lot of junk there... are there any other decent sites to look at for programming "gigs"?
white karma
Might try Facebook
calm night
At the top of the interview scream "I SWEAR I'M NOT INFECTED!!!". Then it will be fine
ember sluice
Where can I find an advanced data structures/algorithms course or book, I just finished CS50, I don't feel it's enough
lusty pawn
coursera has an algorithms specialization that looks pretty interesting
ember sluice
I just want enough CS for me to start data science with basic information
lusty pawn
might try looking at the fundamentals of computing specialization there too... It's definitely not as well put together as CS50 but there might be something in there for you
ember sluice
Specifically AI
gilded valley
@ember sluice there's a pin in #algos-and-data-structs
Although you don't need a huge amount of dsa knowledge for data science
thin valley
Hey I'm looking at pursuing some form of coding employment heading off into my first semester of university in the fall. The "obvious" way to go in my mind is web development, however I realized today I'm not really too sure what else I could get into. Does anyone have any other possible suggestions of where I could apply my knowledge to? It would have to be something online based, doesn't even have to pay well, I would just like something that I could do rather than work in the food industry. Thanks in advance.
shadow moss
I'd focus on school
maddie, in US in particular, as companies push for WFH and markets crash, it's likely companies going to freeze or severely slow hiring until they see where markets land
vivid dock
You could get an internship at a company as a general developer, and simply pick and choose what yout want to learn/work on
I started out unpaid without any roles, no time restriction or anything. So i just chose things (got a few tasks as well) which I did, leaving me with a pretty good fullstack understanding now 2 years later
dry sapphire
yes
wintry imp
Is it ez to get it ?
shadow moss
It's scary that Full Stack Dev for Jr is a thing
Yes, Remote Internship exist but they are few. Generally only exist a company that's 100% remote. We offer remote work few days a week for many employees but interns are never allowed to do so unless sick.
vast shoal
@shadow moss What's the big deal about junior developers being full stack?
shadow moss
To me, full stack is combining two specialities, that requires experience
I’m also an SRE so my POV is stability and further support
vast shoal
I understand your argument, but in my experience, things tend to become less stable when you divide responsibility between backend and frontend and expect things to fit together. I agree that there are more concepts to learn if you are to work with both back and front, but I also think people learn faster and get a better understanding of the system as a whole. You're also able to deliver faster if you don't have to sit and wait for someone else to build the parts of the system you have no knowledge of.
I don't see myself holding a junior dev back from doing both backend and frontend tasks.
There might be a small upfront cost, but I think it pays itself off pretty quickly.
wintry imp
For backend developer is it better if u learn clojure
Coz i have lots of job ads with it for backend ??
Is clojure hard ??
vast shoal
Probably harder than Python, if you're a complete novice to programming.
wintry imp
I got 1 month proper experience in programming. Is clojure really useful fir backend tho ??
vapid jay
it's not time for clojure then yet unless somebody is promising you a job in a clojure-only environment or something.
obsidian acorn
@wintry imp I don't think it would be that helpful. Normally, once you have experience in a language, you can learn other languages as needed.
plucky rain
How would you deal with a client who thinks something extremely complicated is simple to create and doesn't want to budge on budget? Should I just decline the offer or spend more time trying to convince him what he is asking for isn't possible given his current budget?
obsidian acorn
If you already have a backend language that you are proficient in, and have a job in that, then by all means, pick a second or a third one. But otherwise, probably stick to python, and get very proficient at it. @wintry imp
@plucky rain that is an interesting dilemma. Keep in mind, that is what real life is like. Take for example, a medication that you are drinking for a disease, you might think it is a simple process, as in, just get me a medication to fix my case. But it is as complicated as working on a molecular level in the individual body to help with that disease, which might not work on someone else who has the same exact disease.
Similar process exist for non technical people requesting a technical project. They don't have the full comprehension of what goes on behind the scene to understand its complexity.
Instead of making the person understand the complexity of the issue, focus on the return value of the project. Focus on the worth of the outcome, rather than the complexity of the project.
little prairie
This is an upwork client, and from the original proposal it seems like a bait and switch. They made it seem like a very small project to get bids, and then it turns out it is a full scale project and web application
So I'm kind of only giving the benefit of the doubt that it is just they don't understand the technical needs to bring it to fruition.
fathom pecan
I'm pretty worried my internship program's gonna be cancelled.
fathom pecan
Starts in June, and yeah I signed the offer already
gilded valley
I'd guess its pretty unlikely that they cancel it
if you're really worried, you can reach out to them and ask if thats likely
fathom pecan
I actually did lol
They're in talks with health companies etc. getting guidance but they haven't made plans as far out as may/june
I'd also have to travel out of my home state, and the last day to cancel my housing arrangement is in mid-April
vapid jay
@fathom pecan what position?
fathom pecan
It's not really programming related which I'm kinda disappointed about. But the role I applied for is in cybersecurity, responsibilities fall more into threat modelling and architecture
supple fossil
I could use some advice
compact dove
hi
supple fossil
I've worked 2 jobs and created tools for both using python, but neither have been in the tech sector
I'm a bit of a jack of all trades master of none
Not sure how I could jump into tech
wintry imp
@obsidian acorn ty
supple fossil
I feel lost
tight hollow
What kind of tools and what was the difference they made?
supple fossil
My first job I worked as a case manager
So I built a tool that used a public api to pull govt jobs, compile them into an excel file and push them to a shared google drive so other case managers could get up to date information on openings. It would make periodic calls on a timed basis
I then started working as a buyer for restaurant equipment
Where I built some tools for a COBOL program to automate tasks, such as cost changes for items
It's going to be implemented nationally and it's a multimillion dollar company
I am also working on a scrapper to get up to date information on prices of competition
I also build an OCR system (pytesseract), I didn't do any ML just made api calls. This system would pull data from purchase orders, and would compile that info into an excel file. The next steps were to take that info and make calls to freight carriers to check on the status of purchase orders
But I put that project on hold since my company noticed my talents and gave me COBOL projects
Been programming in my spare time for almost 2 years now
I've also built some scrapers in my spare time.
marsh wind
Isn't cobol a kinda dying language?
supple fossil
Yes
But legacy software is everywhere
Fortune 500s still use COBOL because it's embedded in their architecture
COBOL is the language that communicates with the server emulator
You use .txt files to automate
So you write in your preferred language and the script should generate .txt files that contain COBOL instructions
You're not programming in COBOL
vapid jay
What’s something I can watch to help me prepare or get a jumpstart in software engineering and understand it? if I only know a below average amount of python (still learning it but I’ve been busy recently so I don’t wanna say I’m continuing to learn it, since whenever I have the time to is inconsistent)
torpid bolt
(cobol has been ”dying” for 30+ years now, i have no idea if it'll ever truly go away, the people who know it are less and less, but the systems using it keep being around)
@supple fossil cool stuff, it does show ability to achieve things, i guess that you don't have a formal CS or engineering education, so you are probably worried about all the stuff you don't know, the good news is that we all are, even with education! When working with other people in tech, code quality and good practices are going to be more important than theorical programming knowledge, are pretty often, all you do is call APIs and libraries doing as much as possible of the work, and only coding your business logic if possible.
inner zealot
I need to learn how to code with others
I've been doing solo for 9 months now, just got a job for python automation in finances
Met with the CEO's brother who's a python engineer for the Navy, gonna be doing projects with him, it's just that idk how to write code others can read or how to explain it
It was a pain in the ass explaining my algorithm since I've never done it
torpid bolt
communication is a really important skill to build for an engineer, there certainly have various ways to build it, and habits to practice them, commenting your code, blogging, making pull requests to projects (it's always good to explain what you did and why there), or even presenting to conferences (ok, not the best time for this, but there are still remote ones).
vivid sparrow
I noticed nobody applies to 3rd party recruiters on LinkedIn(UK)
vast shoal
I got my current job through a UK-based 3rd party recruiter.
Not sure if that's what you meant.
vivid sparrow
Good to know. Just wondered why. I clicked through 5 pages, and the real companies had some applicants, I saw like 2 3rd party ones with 1 applicant each. Seemed odd.
vast shoal
I didn't apply to them though, they came to me.
vivid sparrow
Oh right. I just thought, there was a saturation of entry level developers, so expected all to be spammed with applicants.
vast shoal
Maybe that's why? You don't need to apply to them, they'll spam your DMs if your profile is even remotely interesting.
vivid sparrow
Aha, yeah maybe.
vast shoal
I don't have the impression that there's a saturation. Demand might not be quite as a high as for senior developers, but I doubt all demand is satisfied.
vivid sparrow
Oh right. Maybe I have a chance then ^^ . Thanks for info.
inner zealot
You gotta sell yourself in your resume, add skills that would be valuable to the company
If you've got something they want or can't find anywhere else
Their gonna call the crap out of yiu
@vivid sparrow also btw love your name 😂
little prairie
Remember, many people who consider themselves entry level developers are only Wordpress editors.
inner zealot
Really?
little prairie
Some even consider themselves expert full stack developers if you go on upwork
little prairie
Yea, upwork is ok but a huge amount of people spamming jobs so it’s easy to never be seen by the client.
vivid sparrow
I never tried wordpress
little prairie
I’ve tried it and don’t see how it’s so popular
inner zealot
I'm surprised I got seen at the job I just got a week ago, got admin access to all IT emails and omfg Im getting applications all day and night