because you could lose company A and B
#career-advice
shadow moss
better to go back to Company A later be like "I got a better offer, sorry, I won't be coming to work"
harsh patio
I didn’t realize their deadlines were so strict. This is my first job offer in the field outside my starting one.
shadow moss
BTW, i'm viewing this from American lense
I know other countries may not work like this becuase contracts
harsh patio
My starting one I had no other offers so I just took it
shadow moss
Deadlines are strict to prevent what you are doing
harsh patio
Wellllllll okay
torpid bolt
i don't agree with Rabbit, but i'm french, dunno how that play
though i don't think we have a more negociation prone culture than americans
but i've done the "hey i asked for X and you said yes to me, but then company Y proposed Z to me (with Z > X) do you want to adjust your proposal?" dance, and nobody was shocked
last time i had 3 companies, and i did some exploration on the possibilities by asking different prices to each, with about 10% of difference between lowest and highest, when all were accepted, i negociated between two of them (though the 3rd did align itself to the first higher offer, i just was less attracted to them), and i ended up with an offer a bit over what i had initially asked.
gilded valley
As in you played the two companies off against each other? Is that a reasonable strategy?
shut geyser
what the worse that can happen?
hushed kestrel
Yes.
I mean, why not?
"I'm being offered x amount at this other company. I would prefer to work for you, could you improve your offer? "
Part of this is why senior people are paid a lot of money
They just have a much better position against companies where Junior folks are just begging for jobs
gilded valley
I mean, why not? The why not would be that companies see it as "trashy" or something. But I have 0 experience with negotiation of this sort, but its clearly an incredibly valuable skill
hushed kestrel
LOL
'Trashy' having multiple options and wanting to get the best deal
That's like going to car lot and being told that negotiating the price of a car against another car lot is trashy
Like, wtf.
gilded valley
Yeah, I take your point. But even that is super alien to me
hushed kestrel
I'm sure different countries have different standards /customs for how to negotiate
shadow moss
I'm saying you can open conversation with company A
just don't be shocked if they just move on
so if you really want to work with Company A, you could end up with revoked offer
harsh patio
Everything I’ve read says that is NOT normal unless the company is very small
This company is based in Bay Area and funded by an even larger Bay Area company. No way negotiations is unheard of
marsh wind
what is NOT normal?
harsh patio
A company moving on from you for negotiating in America in this industry seems not normal to me
All I’ve ever heard is to negotiate salary offer
cosmic crow
ive heard asking for 5-10% more than what you make is perfectly reasonable but im 16 and have no experience, just heard it somewhere
i forget where
harsh patio
Yeah I asked for ‘flexibility’. 5-10% from what I’ve read is very reasonable
Hell 5% is almost exactly what I want
cosmic crow
if you get thrown away for negotiating, its probably saving you a lot of time. working at a company that wont even negotiate sounds like they will just work you to death with 0 care in the world about what happens to you
again im 16 so take what i say with almost no value lol
just my thoughts
harsh patio
Naw, again, everything you’re saying is exactly what I’ve read. Unless the company is small and has no room for negotiations it’s a red flag
cosmic crow
yea, small companies would make sense they have a budget whereas bigger companies.... they do but not so much
harsh patio
To add context too
I was told this company could pay between 70-90k for this position, but put me on the lower end despite being a mid level. So I feel I almost have a right to challenge that decision
Maybe not a ‘right’. But I’m sure they can see WHY I would ask
shadow moss
you misread me
negotiating is fine
but if you accept something from COmpany A, then get higher offer from Company B and go back to Company A, they may say "That's cool, we will move on" instead of "Let's talk"
harsh patio
Oh! Right right. I could see that
shadow moss
Once you accept the offer, few companies will be happy about discussing it again
esp since budgets are established and sometimes candidates are lying so smart play for many companies is "Offer is revoked, good luck with Company b'
harsh patio
Yeah honestly once you sign on the dotted line I wouldn’t see a company wanting to renegotiate
shadow moss
Only reason I mention is you may prefer to work for Company A much more then Company B
if that's the case, you need to consider the cost of losing the offer
I asked one of recruiters at my company, here at my well known US megacorp, if you indicate you are accepting another offer after offer letter has been accepted, we pull your offer letter and move on in 99% cases
harsh patio
Yeah that sounds right to me though
torpid bolt
sorry i was away, so yeah, i did make the company bid against each others, and i don't think any of them saw it negatively at all. They really prefer having a chance at matching the bit, versus me just silently walking away.
If they can't afford what i ask for, they'll tell me, and they'll try to convince me to come work for them anyway, and they might have good arguments and i could decide to do that.
i don't think any company that was interested in you would change their mind because you tell them you got a higher offer, if anything, that makes them more interested in you, because they now have another hint that you are valuable.
but yeah, don't do that after formaly accepting the first offer, i should have said, leave some time for the negociation, and do the negacotiation there, once you say you are accepting, that's a commitment you shouldn't break.
i did tell the various companies/recruiters i was talking to that i wanted to take the time to see what were the opportunities and to make the best choice, so i told them not to expect an answer before a month or so (but of course the recruiters were constantly trying to get me to commit before that, as they know the more time i looked around, the more chances i would accept an other offer).
btw i read this book last year, and although i found some things in it absolutely disgusting, i was told it was a very good reference for sales people, so i'm trying to adjust a bit and negociate more/harder, because i definetely don't play dirty as far as i can see, https://www.amazon.com/You-Can-Negotiate-Anything-Negotiator/dp/0553281097
shadow moss
tshirtman, it matters how much they want you as well
if they think they can do "NEXT!" they might
torpid bolt
oh sure, but that's the thing too, you have to think about how the company will make their choice, and you should be just as detached as that, because when they have multiple fit for the job, they'll make the choice that is the best for them, so you should do that as well.
vivid dock
Sure, if you're a graduate or something like that there's an alright pool for recruiters / companies to pick from, so being picky the first years might backfire
torpid bolt
i do admit i'm lucky enough to have done python for a few years, to have some diploma, and to have some visibility through my open source contributions, so i have a much easier time than a recent graduate or even a random python dev. And of course, everyone should play with the card they have, but the tactic itself is not badly viewed in my experience.
vivid dock
Personally, I'd get a bit picky after landing something stable.
That way you can afford to say No to bad offers
vapid jay
If job listings are including a field to add a resume and you haven't worked any dev jobs yet, would it be fine if its just filled with my previous projects?
harsh patio
Tried negotiating and was told the salary is the highest They would go
hushed kestrel
Sometimes that is the case
Having multiple offers are great
but salary isn't the only thing you can negotiate
Asking for an extra 2 vacation days, some flexibility, maybe a travel /commuter stipend /gym membership or whatever
There are lots and lots of things on the table
But really the strength/weight of your negotiation comes from your best alternative offer
The rich stay rich because they engage with choosing the best of multiple offers over and over again
which statistically is just the best approach
torpid bolt
yep, you can negociate on other stuff, working remote (part or full time) is another one, depending on the company that can also be interest in performance or actions/options, etc.
lament siren
Do any of you guys have a list of interview questions for an entry-level position? I know I can Google them, just trying to find as many as possible :) Thanks in advance
fervent hamlet
buy Cracking the Coding Interview and go through it
lament siren
That's a great advice, I appreciate that!
inner wrenBOT
Something about your input seems off. Check the arguments:
vapid jay
how useful is an AI degree?
cosmic crow
Related to that^ if I wanted to go into AI with python what degree would be the best and what level of that degreee? I heard a lot of tech companies look for PhD for that but Tesla doesn’t care
Pls @ me since I am going to sleep and it will probably get drowned out
shut geyser
From what i see it's PhD and Masters in Physics/Stats/Finance/Econometrics and even Psych sometimes
Anything with strong statiscal background
Also CompSci of course
vapid jay
where do I find some rich kid who has too much money and then i private teach them to become a leet coder?
"one year, and you'll be programming your own discord 2"
is that allowed?
as a question
but seriously though are there some places where people look for these things, or where you get connected to mentors or something
there are tons of students who would take the mentoring but they're piss poor
torpid bolt
it's probably easier to find 10k poor people but willing to give a few bucks for your content if it's good, than to find a rich one that will give you dozens of thousands for private tutoring.
vapid jay
hmm
true
but I'd rather try to interview for one proper job and get it than try to grow something that might or might not work out, if one knew that it would work for sure
torpid bolt
but of course, the hard part is making good content, at least good enough to be noticed, considering the wealth of available options, but consistent, good work can pay big over time, you just have to stick to it for long enough and share with people, some people are very much looking for this information, and you can reach them here or through reddit or other places and get some feedback quickly.
vapid jay
do you have first-hand experience with it?
torpid bolt
no, i don't do courses myself.
vivid sparrow
at Charlie: I think this was wrong place to ask, so I deleted.
vapid jay
@torpid bolt yeah I guess people do love something like 3blue1brown
he started hobbyist
torpid bolt
his content is fairly awesome to be honest
vapid jay
that it is but trying to strive for the same level would be possible if the topics were chosen carefully
torpid bolt
i don't think you need to do something remotely as polished or advanced to get an audience, you can make useful content with less effort, especially if it's things you know well, and you certainly don't need to make it as nice to look at, but of course, the nicer you make it, the easier it'll be to hook people.
shut geyser
Competition is really hard nowadays
magic terrace
hey guys, how import is it to maintain your own side projects in your spare time?
i mean for getting hired
mild zenith
Hard to really quantify it. I mean it'll look good on you if you show recent and consistent work on your projects. Bug fixes, taking on and completing additional issues, that sort of thing
Although on the other there hand, if you're working your way through multiple, completed projects, that also works
I don't think there's a real cut and dry answer
torpid bolt
a lot of good software engineers don't have side projects and stuff, so this is definitely not mandatory. It does help if you have one and it has some visibility of course, but only do such a project if there is something you care enough about to spend that kind of energy into, imho.
ember flower
I would say personal projects are only (if they're) looked when you don't have professional experience
magic terrace
i work as ux designer since 10 years for the biggest technology companies in europe and years ago i did start programming in python. but i am afraid to apply for python jobs because so i did work on my own projects in my spare time and to get more self esteem
but side projects are not real
theres no customer, budget, time, or team
no pressure
dense lark
Most companies I've applied to have asked about side projects
They're definitely interesting as it's a public show of ability/interest
*definitely interested
You'd just need to be prepared to talk about them a little
e.g. about roadblocks, the reasoning behind the project, what you learned from doing it, etc.
magic terrace
no problem, all my side projects are for educational purposes
they are small project for study purposes
to test something new or get confident with something
gilded valley
Companies want something measureable from you. For open source projects, you can show dedication with amount of commits/time you've been worknig on something, or the amount of stars or whatever. For closed source stuff its a bit harder, but you still have metrics like registered users on a website, downloads of an app, or more things like that
mild zenith
@unreal bolt And that's not to say that you can't list them on a CV/resume and bring along a prototype or a finished project for demonstration if it comes to that
What you do and have done should still be noted
magic terrace
i guess it always depends on the person
mild zenith
The person, the interviewer, the company, etc.
Like I said earlier, there's no cut and dry answer
Wish there was
magic terrace
someone should automate the HR process with a global intelligent AI, so every company can find the right person for the right job. and nobody need to think about applying 🙂
opal perch
that's how "I lied on my cv and still got the job" would happen
hushed kestrel
That doesn't work
There is no way to collect the data that you need
That's solving sociology
mild zenith
AI will always be tainted by the biases of the programmers and the rules of their culture
hushed kestrel
Bias is measurable
magic terrace
i bet china has the data
mild zenith
But hard to fix
opal perch
True, and what happens when companies aren't happy with the results?
hushed kestrel
There is probably a good AI out there to measure people's ability to program though
vapid jay
Hi there. I've been aiming to get a job as a junior web developer, and have made a few good sized projects to show I'm competent. Could I please receive some criticism on my Github? https://github.com/MarkMichon1
It consists of a couple Flask applications, a Django application, and even a library which got a pretty decent reception.... I've even taught myself JS/React over the past couple months. Where I'm a bit lost is how much more I need to make (if anything), or this is sufficient to start applying for jobs. Thanks.
stone ledge
Question about careers, as a self taught problem solver, is it possible to get a job? just wondering
vapid jay
Self taught programer here i picked up python somewhere in mid summer 2019 . Im on track to finish my 4th project with flask , postgres , boostrap looking for a way to dive with VUE . I am also familiar with web scraping if that anything means used selenium and bs whole time to feed DBs on my home projects. The last 2 projects i worked where e shops , one for my friend and another guy i met on discord. Everything turned out fine . Now ever since i finished the last one im going back on reading more stuff about flask , unit testing etc . Should i try with freelancing maybe at first ? I feel i really lack of experience but so far i really covered a lot python ( now going thru some data structures books and on regular try to spend atleast 2 hours solving katas on code wars ) , im fairly familiar with flask , deploying an app , developing dashboard for admin and other roles , i guess i cuould totally create some small to mid web app... MY front end skills are just jquery and css paired with boostrap ...
hushed kestrel
So
You should figure out what kind of job you want @vapid jay and train for the job
Working on projects is fine in terms of showing that you can do anything in python and maybe if you did some good stuff with whatever you did is good.
(I assume you are job oriented because of this thread btw)
torpid bolt
starting freelance is hard if you don't have connection, it can work, but it's not going to be easy, i think people usually start with a full time job and then switch to freelancing when they got experience and some network, but i'm not sure it's universal, i've just seen a few people do that.
seems like you have good technical basis, at least good enough to do projects, and a lot of companies don't need much more than that, but freelancing requires doing other things as well, to find clients, negociate prices, manage schedules, getting paid and all, it's aditional burden, it can be rewarding of course, but challenging.
vapid jay
I understand hm.
little prairie
I guess this is somewhat on topic to careers. But if you had written a software that could be both game changing and profitable, where could one go to find a(n) investor(s) to pitch it to?
shadow moss
Generally seed investors are friend/family
Or self funded
Series A required you to show something
little prairie
Self funding has been exhausted. I would rather not mix friends/family with business. I guess I'm more so looking for external resources that I can pitch to, I do have a few levels above an MVP to showcase.
untold flax
In some ways, is the job market for coding already oversaturated or on its way to becoming oversaturated?
proper dirge
I think any tech field (programming & IT specifically) are oversaturated with entry-level people looking for work
but once you get like 2-3 years of experience you wont really have as many issues getting "your foot in the door"
its just the initial foothold that is frustrating
well, can be frustrating. Networking with peers/going to career fairs is 75% of what college is about
untold flax
Makes sense, thank you.
vapid jay
do you ever feel
that there's a certain age you can do this up to... before they discriminate against either your age or seniority and you won't be able to do it anymore
so you need to prep for that and move up to an exec position instead
torpid bolt
i did feel more concerned about that 10 years ago i think, now getting pretty close to 35 and i do feel respected as a programmer, and while people do want me to manage/mentor, they are usually fine if i say i do want to keep programming. Also, i see more "old" programmers than i used to, i'm pretty sure a lot of my coworkers from when i started are still at it, even if they have their own companies, and of course you have people like raymond hettinger and david beazley that are pretty proeminent actualy senior programers, and they are awesome. Why would you want to stop profiting from the experience of old programmers? Both management and younger devs i've worked with were very respectful of my knowledge & experience.
torpid bolt
you can of course argue that 35 is not that old (thank you), but you can find a couple more senior programmers on this discord as well (although this kind of platform has a very skewed audience, so they the ratio of younger people is even higher than in the industry in general), and they seem to do fine. The impression that programer is a young people's job is in part created by the fact that the need and availability of programmers increased a lot in the last 40 years, so each generation was more numerous than the previous one, constantly giving the impression there were no old programmers.
the 2000 dot com bubble also certainly decimated the workforce, i was a bit young back then, just getting interested in computers, but i assume a number of people changed job back then, as money dried up for a few years.
vapid jay
there's a difference between having been a firefighter for 30 years and having been a programmer for 30 years
both have been fighting fires for 30 years but the other guy actually knows how to stop new fires from starting and can prevent them
torpid bolt
yeah, they had their own fires, hopefuly they learned their lessons by now 😄
vapid jay
but that's what I'd say why taking a managerial position as a programmer is a good thing
you get to have responsibility that makes you do Good things
vast shoal
I find that I naturally end up doing some manager-ish tasks simply by virtue of being the person that knows what to do regarding more high-level topics, even if I don't have such a position on paper (which I also wouldn't want).
Directing people, giving advice, helping with recruitment, organizing meetings, etc.
Doesn't mean you are obliged to give up technical tasks entirely, but if you don't start knowing how to do the above after 5+ years, I kinda feel like you haven't been paying attention.
vapid jay
I do help with the recruiting stuff, interviewing and managing.. but it somehow doesn't feel real as building something, solving a problem or architecting something new..
@vast shoal same thing.
ember flower
I find recruiting really real
vast shoal
It feels real when the absence of management leads to slowdown or blockage of the development pipeline.
Like, not having enough people to work on tasks, not having experienced people to work on tasks, people working on the wrong tasks or in the wrong order, people implementing suboptimal or buggy solutions due to lack of communication within the team, etc.
shut geyser
i have a small assignement
i don't really know what they expect
i wonder if i do quick and clean or overenginer it to show i have very big brain oui oui
vapid jay
hit the target first.
then put in a reasonable amount of hours to refactor it into the best possible solution you can do in that time, and then send it.
shut geyser
it's just parsing a string
i feel like doing too much work on it, i would act ridiculous
like AI powered Multiprocessed Cloud deployed HelloWorld
gilded valley
If its simple, I assume its just a filter for the melons out there
to make sure you can write basic code
shut geyser
what means melon in that context ?
in my language it means people who take themselves for the shit
gilded valley
moron, eejit, someone who can't do basic stuff
shut geyser
ah okay
vapid jay
To those of you who got jobs as web developers, what kind of projects did you have on your Github?
sterile vault
Aging is tough. I'm 29, trying to switch careers from medical lab and using programming knowledge as a way to distinguish myself . While i feel that my mind is still sharp enough to learn (provided enough sleep, lol) and i don't have major obligations other than paying the bills, i feel i'm running against the clock. I can't sacrifice my personal life for 5- 10 years for training and education (like say, getting degree from zero), hoping for better future, while i could 10 years ago. The future is already there. I try not to mention my age on the resume, becase i finished my bachelor's when my peers started getting their phds.
Too keep it leass off-topic
Do you feel that some programming fields are trying to hire only fresh CS grads and some are more accomodating for older self-learners?
vapid jay
@sterile vault I think there's an inherent assumption that the more background education you have (almost no matter what) the faster you'll learn programming
radiant moon
29 ain't old
wooden laurel
Coming from PHP/Laravel
If I want to build rest API's, should I just learn Django or starting with FastAPI is ok?
vapid jay
ID say go wit flask
torpid bolt
fastapi is nice, i don't think there is anything wrong with starting with it
granted, i didn't finish the app i started doing with it yet, so my feedback is not as complete as it should, but i've found it pretty straightforward to get started with
radiant moon
fastapi does indeed look slick; I'd never heard of it. TIL. Thanks T-Shirt Man!
woeful spruce
if 29 and 35 are old....I need to get more aggressive with putting money in my retirement account 😁
burnt tiger
@sterile vault From my observations and experience w/ the software development industry, the "only hire fresh CS grads" stereotype is a bit of a myth. If anything, I'd say fresh grads have to do a lot more to distinguish themselves because there are so many CS (or CS-related) grads these days looking for a job. Having experience under your belt is going to help, even if it's from a career in another field. I'd also say that age does not become a negative factor for quite a while, unless you're well over 40 with minimal or zero relevant experience. More than anything, I'd advise finding a specific area of programming that you're passionate about and are intrinsically motivated to learn.
umbral portal
^ Yeah, agree
Also, something else important: I feel like pretty much all employers nowdays will keep an eye out for other qualifications besides CS, e.g. maths, physics, forms of engineering perhaps
My father worked as an accountant for a company creating a search engine, and apparently they hired someone who had no degree in CS; but rather a degree in astrophysics.
sterile vault
Thanks for the feedback! Well, i'm passionate about games and they were my first learning projects 🙂 However, gamedev industry is a mess right now, so i'd prefer keeping gamedev as a hobby rather than career.
burnt tiger
Yeah that's reasonable. There's plenty of other areas to focus on though, in particular think about what type of software development you want to do. I'd start with comparing front-end, back-end, and full-stack; see what resonates with you the most and then specialize.
sterile vault
Well, i like writing program logic and architecture and try to avoid designing interfaces, since i'm bad with them.
So, for now i want to learn well how to do small command line script-like programs
And later shift to larger CRUD apps that work with databases
burnt tiger
By "interfaces", do you specifically mean GUIs (graphical user interfaces)? If so, I can personally relate to that. UX has never been an area I've been particularly good at
sterile vault
I don't like the idea of working with web, but i think i should try Flask/Django and maybe i'll like it
Yep, GUIs.
burnt tiger
Yeah it's definitely worthwhile to have a decent amount of web dev experience. Even if you end up getting into back-end development or specifically focusing on database development, you'll very likely end up interfacing with more than a few web applications.
(through APIs, not so much GUIs)
sterile vault
Also, i'm trying to leverage my domain knowledge. Right now i'm prettying up my resume, so I can apply to http://www.bostongene.com/ Looks like a local company who tries hard to mimic foreighn company. They have a lot of job openings, from people who work with scientific articles, to proper python programmers to run pipelines. I feel a bit underqualified (not much oncology knowledge beyond the basics), but i'm still giving it a shot.
burnt tiger
good luck, it never hurts to apply (:
sterile vault
Also, need to work on my DevOps skills. Docker and CI pipelines familiarity is a very common requirement for devs.
burnt tiger
(topical channel specifically focused on that)
You can pick up quite a lot of knowledge from lurking in those channels
sterile vault
Love this discord, there's a lot of stuff to learn 🙂
The little problem with backend that it's hard to practice it without learning front-end
burnt tiger
Eh, you can do a surprising amount of depth in the backend with just a minimalist command-line interface.
Or an uncreative template HTML as part of your front-end instead of trying to build one that looks nice from scratch
sterile vault
Maybe even using Telegram bot as a "front". Very popular in my country.
Even possible to earn some freelance money. Discord bots are an option, also.
ember sluice
What should I know in Python beofre learning machine lesrning libraries like numpy, matplotlib, pandas, scikit-learn, etc?
Before*
gilded valley
Honestly, you can get by with some pretty basic knowledge. You need to know the basic stuff like different types, variables, and functions; then you need to be familiar with using libraries and understand the use of methods and creating objects
But this isn't the right channel for this sort of thing
ember sluice
Oh ok, I know all of the syntax and oop stuff, maybe I can start now
gilded valley
Yeah, its really not too difficult to jump into that stuff - what I found most annoying was that you practically never want to iterate over numpy stuff, vs all kinds of funky iteration in normal Python
ember sluice
That's good news for me, iteration is sometimes confusing
opal perch
In some ways, the machine learning libraries are almost a new language in themselves, so really only knowing the basics of python should get you by, you should be all good
magic shard
If you want to make projects to boost your resume, but you can't find the ideas, I made a subreddit called r/makemyideas where people can post an app idea for you to make
It's not very active yet since I'm still looking for members but come subscribe to get the ideas in your feed once people start publishing ideas!
tulip ice
@magic shard Didn't anyone make a bot to scrape the answers of every post that asks for project ideas?
left escarp
You can do .reddit makemyideas in #sir-lancebot-playground to fetch 5 random posts from r/makemyideas
@tulip ice
vapid jay
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "/home/ag/.local/share/virtualenvs/seasonalbot-0Ba-uPuk/lib/python3.8/site-packages/discord/ext/commands/core.py", line 79, in wrapped
ret = await coro(*args, **kwargs)
File "/home/ag/PycharmProjects/bookmark-re-discord/seasonalbot/bot/seasons/evergreen/reddit.py", line 58, in get_reddit
if posts[1]["data"]["over_18"] is True:
IndexError: list index out of range
03/01/20 09:29:33 - bot.decorators DEBUG: AG#7863 called the 'reddit' command and had a role to bypass the in_channel check.
@left escarp
Priority - High
left escarp
Looks like they don't have posts
vital imp
anyone know a discord or other community for freelance developers?
green remnant
Looking for 1 too ^^
green remnant
Let's do it!
vital imp
okay i set one up. DM me and i will send you and invite
molten spoke
Please stop trying to post invites, we don't permit that here.
vital imp
oh im sorry i didnt know it was not taking it
molten spoke
Every invite you post is pinging the entire staff team, so stop that.
vital imp
ops sorry
green remnant
oof
molten spoke
the bot does DM you when you try and post an invite
vital imp
yeah im sorry, but i have 5 billion things on the right
i just now saw this i will delete the message if it bugs you
proper dirge
At your job, does anyone use python as only a "side language" to compliment the language your company requires you to use
ember pelican
Probably jobs where people make websites
vapid jay
i graduated as a computer information system major in 2018
i wanna get into python more in depth
what type of jobs/industry should i aim for?
rare sand
@ember pelican where I work, we make a webapp - but Python is still our main language, since most of the business logic is in our backend.
vapid jay
I've basically taught myself to code. I'm comfortable in full stack web dev using node, django, react, etc. I can do basic webscraping and automation with python, and a bunch of other stuff. I'm comfortable enough with the basics that I can quickly pick up most new frameworks or languages. I'm about halfway through my CS degree, but I don't even know if it's worth completing. I may gain some lower level knowledge and some knowledge on algorithms and higher level maths, but it won't really add to my skillset in any meaningful way. I've considered transferring to a Business or more general Math degree to give me more versatility in my career. What do you all think of this?
ember pelican
i think people care more about actual experience, rather than education, when hiring, so if you've done a lot of stuff, transferring shouldn't be that big of a deal
gilded valley
Its almost certainly worth sticking through your degree at this point
Unless you have substantial work experience, your easiest path to a job will include the degree
Or at least thats the impression I get from people who have done it without a degree. Lots of people are in your position, theres tonnes of 2nd year CS students who are completely competent developers - but sticking through a degree shows dedication and improves skills beyond basic CS/software dev knowledge
vast shoal
I think there's a decent chance you could get a job with the experience you have right now, but I definitely don't think it's true that the latter part of a CS degree adds nothing meaningful to your skillset. As a working professional, I can definitely tell the difference between coworkers with deeper and more shallow understanding of programming and CS fundamentals. Not saying you can't gain that deeper understanding outside of a CS degree, or that all CS programs are equally good at teaching them to you, but I definitely felt like it helped me a lot.
gilded valley
Another point is you're going to be working for the next ~40 years, whereas you're only in uni for 3 - seems worth it to just stick through it now
ripe wasp
Anyone got lucky with a python career on spain? Everyone here uses damn Java for the taks you would usually use python for
vapid jay
@gilded valley @vast shoal @ember pelican Thank you all for your input
worldly haven
Hi guys, I'm a first year business/finance student which is really looking forward to start as Investment banker in London. HOWEVER, I'm really interested by python and all its capabilities, how long do you think I need to study python to be able start working on projects which are not mine ? (I already have python basics making Tic tac toes and other baby games haha)
sand moat
@worldly haven would recommend trying to build a portfolio by attempting coding challenges. Project Euler is one right off the top of my head. Some people might say differently, but once you feel comfortable relying on your own skills to solve problems, you can start connecting with other people
shut geyser
Oh god i landed an interview for a position where they search someone with 1/2 years of experience with Java and i have none but i wrote that i can learn
This gonna be tough
marsh wind
Well. Convince them :)
I had interview myself today, was first time to write code on white board. Very simple one but I really staggered for long moment as never did it
marsh wind
I hear tell of people leaving when you ask them this
@shut geyser hm?
shadow moss
Complete your degree unless you are racking up insane debt
And yes, I help interview people, when you are sitting on other side I get all code testing companies and hoops people have to hop through
marsh wind
They are interviewing 2 more this week. So before March 10 worst case I should know if I pass to next stage (HR) or no
shadow moss
Like failure to read requirements or thinking we could exempt them when it’s clear we can’t
US citizenship required in job listing is non negotiable item, pro tip
mint gate
so i want to eventually find a job or start freelanceing or doing something to start making money and the area im thinking is fullstack web development now im kind of stuck at a fork in the road as to wether go with django or something like the mern stack i know a little about about each and have made things in both but before i commit to one or the other i want to know what one is going to give me (being self taught and no professional experiance) a better chance and a easier path to getting a job ive heard django is not really used widely and therefore might hurt me in finding a job and i hear that something like the mern stack is used everywhere so just being blunt what would be the best path to focus on if my priority is just getting a job and breaking into everything like django is cool and i do like it but is something else going to make me have a easier time
shadow moss
JS is mostly commonly used for Frontend
because running in browser is considered better UI experience
ember pelican
i think, if you can put in the time and effort, knowing how to do things in many systems would offer you the most flexibility
gilded valley
React or similar front end libs seem to be very much in demand to me - whether thats with Express or with Django/Flask doesn't seem to matter a huge amount
mint gate
again that does not matter to me im just looking to break in after ill figure out what i want to end up really working with right now i just need to focus on breaking in it seems like
torpid bolt
maybe not exactly google, but certainly a couple people here work in big sillicon valley companies.
turbid snow
Where do you think google employees hang-out about programming etc online?
shut geyser
seen some on hacker news, some on the open source projects they're involved with
gilded valley
My guess would be private places, or places where they don't make it obvious that they're google employees
turbid snow
So you are saying some of them might be here?
I have always wanted to chat with a Google employee
torpid bolt
they probably don't want to be harassed over it, they probably don't want to seen as some circus animal people are curious about, even with the deference that would come with it, it's just not that fun.
if you have questions you think they could answer, you could just ask these, and the answers might not need to be specificaly from google employees.
a lot of companies employs the same kind of people with the same kind of skills to do similar work.
turbid snow
I mean my thing is I just want to chat with them about working there etc
torpid bolt
you might guess that there are more people wanting to do that that there are google employees
(by a wide margin)
gilded valley
I think among younger programmers, theres a tendency to sort of fetishize google
Which I definitely had/have to some extent
indigo sleet
I've seen that a fair bit
But I expect it isn't that different from most programming jobs
Just with extra benefits and a higher standard of entry
gilded valley
I imagine its Silicon Valley that really stands out
rather than Google specifically
turbid snow
So you guys think that Google employees may reside in this server?
torpid bolt
i really wouldn't be surprised
i mean, reside might be a strong word
but some come around regularly
indigo sleet
Good company but the plumbing is a bit dodgy
shut geyser
gdude confirmed for the guy living in basement and coming up at night to scare you with a "go-ood even -keuf leuf keuf evening!"
turbid snow
Do Google employees have private slack chats?
gilded valley
They obviously have some sort of private chat like slack or similar
torpid bolt
most companies have a private chat, so yeah.
mint gate
i would assume google employees are probally just like any other person but they work at google
vapid jay
they use hangouts at Google for 1:1 and organizing meetups
they use discord for casual gaming tournaments.. and irc for crisis management
How relevant is Fortran today? I saw a job post from Nvidia and it mentioned it
vital imp
I need to make $100 within 30 days. Please tell me a path to that with python?
ember pelican
that's less than 4 dollars per day. if you go to an educational institution, you could probably get someone to pay you some money to make something for them
ember pelican
slightly dishonest method, but it works
i was more talking about charging money to make discord bots, for instance
vital imp
ok but explain to me a $4 discord bot?
ember pelican
idk
vital imp
one have is knowing how to do it, the other is knowing why and for who
ember pelican
i go to a rich person school, so none of the students actually have a sense of how much they should pay for stuff
ember pelican
also slightly dishonest, but there are people willing to pay some money to succeed at competitions
if its a local team coding competition
someone might be willing to pay to work with you
vital imp
$4 discord bot. that has a certain ring to it
ember pelican
there's also the option of tutoring for cs classes
vital imp
yeah but i need work now. thats a good mid range plan though
onyx pendant
I dont think i got the job at microcenter.. i havent heard back from them in a week
😕
radiant moon
the job I have now, they called me back soon after the interview and said "no". Then they called me again a week or so later, and said "huh, this other manager saw your interview notes and would like to talk to you"
wintry imp
hi can someone give me some tips how on to start contributing in open source projects as a beginner ? ty 😄
wintry imp
im newbie pretty much so haha
mint citrus
a snowball effect might occur
mint citrus
so you end up contributing a lot or not
wintry imp
ohh depending hwo much im into that project isnt it ?
mint citrus
a snowball effect
a situation in which something increases in size or importance at a faster and faster rate:
mint citrus
np
shadow moss
I know a few Google Employees, it's nothing special
in fact, at their size, they no longer hire 100% cream of crop, there is a lot of good programmers since there is just soo much code to write
I hear alot of negatives even still around Quality of LIfe
if company gives oyu free food, it's to make sure you don't stop coding
shadow moss
I don't think it starts at 25
shadow moss
that's US, it might be different in EU
mint citrus
it is different in the EU
theres a law saying that you get 25 days if you work 40 hours a week
shadow moss
They also hire a ton of contractors so while you may work AT google, you are not working FOR google
mint citrus
i wouldnt want to work as a contractor anywhere
let alone I dont want to work for google
vital imp
why not?
mint citrus
too big. I image a lot of red tape
vital imp
some call that job soul sucking security
vivid sparrow
Doesn't it seem strange that some people teach themselves for a year and get a software job, and others study 4 years for a degree before getting one? Are the first group cheating?
gilded valley
No. Because that isn't necessarily the standard experience
You hear those stories due to survivors bias
People who self study for years and can't find a job do exist
shut geyser
Oh god i landed an interview for a position where they search someone with 1/2 years of experience with Java and i have none but i wrote that i can learn
So i posted this yesterday
They want to do a 45 min whiteboard test
i do hope they read the CV/Motivation Letter where i say i don't know the language
vapid jay
@shut geyser 1/2 years isn't that much. it's kind of a junior position given that the language has existed basically for ever.
they're probably looking for you to be well-versed in the foundational stuff like objects\classes\the jvm\references\generics\classpath etc. and not necessarily the deeper stuff
shut geyser
oh i have 0 knowledge :p
just applied because it looked really cool, never expected an answer
vivid sparrow
Thanks Charlie and gm, for info.
vital imp
@EmberDuck just find a good java tutorial and furiously type out code
marsh wind
If they didn't read your CV/motivation it's on them. Perhaps they will want pseudo code from you though? @shut geyser
marsh wind
Well, good luck anyway :)
shut geyser
thanks
sterile vault
BTW, where can i do some lazy american student's homework for a couple of bucks?
It's less lucrative than making proper freelance, but seems to have lower entry barrier
Being able to get "beer money" for your skills is nice.
gilded valley
it'd probably be against the law or at least the rules of the school - so I doubt you'd be able to discuss it in detail here. But, my guess is thats a pretty not-lucrative market - seems like the kinda thing that would already be dominated by cheap workers in India/other cheap to live places doing things on Fiverr/other janky sites
marsh wind
a friend of mine did it on upwork for chemistry
sterile vault
Hm, gotta check out fiverr
torpid bolt
it's been some time, but i did read that it was a sadly common thing in academics, people with money basically outsourcing their work to people doing that as freelance, they get through university learning almost nothing, they just want a meaningless piece of paper.
not common as in everybody is doing it, but i sizeable enough portion, even if a few percent, that there is a market for it.
gilded valley
I know essay writing is a big industry. I think I've gotten Google sets for it before
I kinda get it though. Its very difficult to see the value in writing an essay when there are so many more fun things you could be doing right now
torpid bolt
true, but the degree is supposed to mean something, on the other hand, if people do that, then your degree is meaningless and you have better things to do than being there at all.
sterile vault
Well, it's certainly illegal/questionable, but people won't stop doing it, since they often invested a lot in degree and just want to finish it ASAP, even if not with full degree's worth in knowledge.
But most common is hiring a guy to do a whole course project for you, not for separate homeworks (you often can just ignore them at your peril)
gilded valley
Selling isn't illegal I believe. But buying will get you kicked out of uni
gilded valley
Not in the UK. You're selling an essay, you don't care what the person does with it
hushed kestrel
In the US if you know/willingly participate in a fraud scheme, you are also liable I think
gilded valley
You can just say you're selling a model
hushed kestrel
Not to say these people ever get prosecuted
gilded valley
With no intention of the person submitting the example
hushed kestrel
But then you'd have to back that argument up with facts or something
gilded valley
Well. The facts would be a tos on your website, plus marketing materials. These businesses are very common, and known to advertise around universities in the uk
Here's an article about it https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/education-45640236
hushed kestrel
It wont be that effective of a solution
It's too hard to ban overseas essay mills
But we are off topic
Unless we are talking about making a career out of this
gilded valley
Yeah. Definitely off topic (although definitely a bad solution, it was just the first Google result). My point was that its a pretty saturated market at this point
So it probably isn't even worth it just for beer money
vital imp
python programming is a saturated market
sterile vault
What isn't (assuming beginner-level skills)?
torpid bolt
i don't think it's a saturated market, considering the desperation of recruiters trying to reach me, but i guess that's one datapoint, i might be an outlier, but i don't think i am.
sterile vault
Well, you're middle at worst, probably senior, that's a whole different market
I'm currently going through interviews in place (still medicine) where while i won't be able to get into data analysis role (they need experience, obviously), but HR said that it would be possible to shift in that position, and i hope I'll have small projects i can take.
It's not an easy and quick way to both learn and get portfolio, but I really hope it will work out.
vital imp
im looking for any income at the moment
shadow moss
tshirtman, this you? https://github.com/kivy/kivy/commits?author=tshirtman
open patio
yes
shadow moss
then you are outlier
marsh wind
Why is he?
woeful spruce
because he's good? I don't know
I'm surprised some people on here have had trouble securing employment in a programming role, must be either bad luck, poor job market where they reside, or need to work on interviewing skills
because the intellect is definitely there, just need to catch a break
sudden basin
@sterile vault My bro kind of in a similar position as you med student with low prospects for getting matched for residency (Canadian citizen but american Student) and hes considering of switching to something tech, which is kind of his real passion but is scared of the uphill climb to break into progmramming
sterile vault
Hope we'll both reach our goals 🙂
Also, there's automation in medicine
Basically, engineer who works with stuff like sequencers, thermocyclers, automatic pipetters and various other noisy overpriced machines
I never even tried to get into that, but some people may enjoy more hands-on approach to tech.
sudden basin
haha hes ready jump off the med train and say good bye to clincial all together. Although that imposter syndrome is making him consider becoming a PA
woeful spruce
why won't he stay in Canada?
sterile vault
It's a bit harder for him, considering the doctor salaries in US 🙂
sudden basin
Hes a student in the states, he didnt have the grade for Canada lol
woeful spruce
like my cousin
sudden basin
The regretCaribbean route
woeful spruce
he moved to Australia
it is going to be tough in the States until he gets a Green Card
surprised it is so much more difficult in Canada despite the fact that you get paid less
but the population is smaller in Canada
sudden basin
P much but for him he had a student visa which was decent at pushing him through but right now hes burned out and recently did a proper evaluation of his chances and realized he might have a low chance of residency which are sort of nightmare cycles of doing either low pay research pay hoping for a match or some low tier health related consulting.
but the population is smaller in Canada
@woeful spruce Thats pretty much it, fewer seats
woeful spruce
I mean it is short-term sacrifice for long-term results
but better hope he can stay in the US long-term
sudden basin
hes interested in seeing how he can break into some kind of either web developement which was always his childhood hobby or potentially data science
woeful spruce
data science is promising...but hopefully he can follow his passion
sudden basin
Nah he sees the writing on the wall and is willing it have that kind of uncertainity, he'd rather do a side-grade to another clinical job or jusut swear off healthcare entirely
woeful spruce
many people chase degrees for $$ and it makes things difficult, just my opinion
well hopefully his debt isn't too high
sudden basin
Med wasn't his passion per say, more like brown family intially pushed for that medicine job
Hahaha ... near$200
woeful spruce
oh I see
sudden basin
k
woeful spruce
$2000 is peanuts
sudden basin
Sparechange
woeful spruce
as is $200
sudden basin
200K
sudden basin
yeah international student fees
sudden basin
well hes nearing that unless he stops here and drops out which is he kind of looking forward to do
sterile vault
Ouch, my wallet just shivered in fear
woeful spruce
and I barely even use my degree
$200K is insane
but apparently not that uncommon for med students
sudden basin
I think the real figure is currenly $130ks but like I said if he hadn't stoppped for that evaluation his current tuition would push him to $170k
woeful spruce
even 130K, yikes
well hope he has a lucrative career at some point while enjoying his job
sterile vault
Can he capitalise on his background?
woeful spruce
he's obviously intelligent
sterile vault
Say, by making healthcare-related sites
sudden basin
thats a bigyikes indeed, my kin degree as a Canadian with student loans is currently in $30,000 but im not planning on using that degree lol
woeful spruce
$30K is almost average
I graduated with $22,000
debt
went to school in Toronto
sudden basin
Nah he doesnt want to really touch clinical if he can avoid it just because it left a bad taste in his mouth UNLESS he gets into PA (Physican's Assistant) which is kind of gonna be hard since his pre-reqs from uni are currently8-9 years old which are considered "expired" for post-grad schools
so if you guys aren't planning on using degree what you planning on pursuing?
sudden basin
Whats your degree lol
woeful spruce
the key is getting jobs that don't particularly need a specific degree at this time
I graduated in psych
then got a post-grad certificate in Human resources
then did an HR data job
and not I am a data dev after moving to the US where I do data related to products my employer manufactures
very roundabout path
but it is all I am good at
..or maybe it is just a job no one else wants to do 😁
what are you hoping to pursue?
sudden basin
I odnt know yet im kind of in a boat where I thought medicine was for me but now im doing a tehcnical support role with Seagate
Considering either staying in IT and doing cybersec or programming
im much younger than my brother so im more flexible right now
sudden basin
Yeah thats science pathways for you lol
sudden basin
Yeah mcuh better here for post secondary
dry sapphire
wait, when you say 200k
do you mean total cost is 200k, or just debt after paying whatever you can?
woeful spruce
total is 200K for his brother
marsh wind
Man, and in France people tried to riot against increase of yearly inscription fees to 4000€ for international students
dry sapphire
what are inscription fees
marsh wind
Well they did win actually it for PhDs at least
woeful spruce
I think they rioted in Quebec, Canada over student fees increasing as well, French connection maybe?
sudden basin
Idk about that lol but im seeing a trend here for Health sci going into tech
which might be positive tbh
marsh wind
what are inscription fees
@dry sapphire tuition fees basically
woeful spruce
so every health grad will be a data scientist....
well medical device industry is also huge
sterile vault
Well, not everything in data science should be for economics grads 🙂
sudden basin
The older ive gotteen the more and more ive gotten interested in almost anything data science
gloomy gorge
sudden basin
Canada Uni, with sutdent loans which apply a discount too
wintry imp
can u find a job in programmming without a degree??
high;u unlikely to get one i reckon?
river totem
here in australia you can get an undergraduate degree for less than 20k usd
how tf are y'all paying 300k
(unless ive overlooked something in calculation)
mint citrus
People going out of state. Thats how
still orchid
Is it worth it to go to school?
Do most jobs require it? I am new at this so I’m sorry if dumb question
river totem
an international student from the us here would still only be paying 96k
interstate would still be the same 20k
apparently degrees in areas like humanities, social studies, or nursing would only be like 13k
actually this is inaccurate as the government has been increasing costs every year
sudden basin
To anxswer you question regarding degrees and programming it kind of depends
Certain tiers of jobs appear to strongly prefer it and probably youre going to get a higher salalry on average purely due to filling in the "has degree" checkbox
But it seems that getting into programming wihtout a degree is very much doable but requires a lot of boot strapping on your end and can depend on the type of job youre looking to get into
Im sure theres a sticky or an FAQ online that help answer you question let me see if i can find one
river totem
it doesn't seem incredibly uncommon to go into software engineering without a relevant degree
sudden basin
Do you have any idea of what you're looking to do or interested in doing?
shut geyser
Just curious are you in fintech now
dry sapphire
graduated from Law, did it for a while, decided it sucked, went for a bootcamp, got a job @ a startup, got a job @ a different startup, felt like I wasn't getting paid enough, got a position overseas (where I am now)
that's the short version
it's been a few months short of 2 years since I went for the bootcamp
back when I was nervous and lost
tight hollow
@dry sapphire how was the process from finishing bootcamp -> getting job@a startup?
sterile vault
Wow, only two years and from zero to hero
How much math were you forced to learn? Law degrees are usually not math-heavy.
shut geyser
nice
tight hollow
Probably a lot of it was due to good networking and people skills i.e law student and currently a bootcamp instructor
dry sapphire
hm it was GA (General Assembly), if you've heard of it
so, they hold this kinda career event thing a short while after graduating
I got my first position at the startup there, but GA wanted me to stay on as a temporary instructional associate so the startup was willing to delay my employment
GA is pretty light on the math IMO...most of it I did myself
tight hollow
Oh I've heard of GA
unreal flame
i am not getting idea about how to start learb python
vapid jay
My coworkers at my first job did GA, like 3 or 4 of them. It seems like they were just given web development tasks for 3 months in order to know certain buzzwords. The good developers were already good developers, it just took GA to bring it out of them. Less than good developers you could tell because all of their stuff looked the same and they couldn't speak to anything
but either way GA taught them how to churn stuff out when it's pretty easy, like CRUD apps for web
Maybe it's changed since then though, this was 3 years ago
dry sapphire
yeah, that's basically it.
there are good graduates, and there are graduates that are...shall we say, not so good.
vapid jay
I know it is stupid, but is there any sets for common interview coding questions?
onyx merlin
hello guys
need some help finding a python/data science boot camp. i would prefer smth offline in frankfurt, germany
how should i look for a good one ?
what is important when picking one ?
should i also consider also smth online?
meager oriole
@vapid jay yes, bear with me I'll share it
vapid jay
ok
vapid jay
@meager oriole Thank you very much!
ionic totem
Hi guys , im still in highschool at the moment , 1,5 years till i graduate , i was thinking to not go to a college afterwards , i was thinking to start some programing courses in my last year of highschool and then just go to work ,i allreqdy done a couple of projects for which i got paid, i feel like the colleges for programming in my country are just really bae , for example a lot of the first yewr you mostly work with pascal , you also ha e a lot of subjects that are just not related to programming
From what i saw cthe pay if you have or dont have a college here is pretty much the same
Also for example , the father of a friend literally is the ceo of a company that does work in programming , mainly phone apps, i talked personally with him , he said he couldnt care less if i have or not superior studies as long as im goos at coding
shadow moss
What country you in?
plain inlet
hi. college can be a nice experience on its own, and it can help learning things which programming jobs themselves won't.. like how to write a compiler [which may be unlikely to be useful, but may be still interesting for various reasons ;)]
ionic totem
Im in romania
plain inlet
in my experience pascal tends to be used for teaching basic algorithms, and in this case the language doesn't matter that much
gilded valley
If you're in Romania - then you probably can get free education inside the EU. My guess is that you'd find it easier to build a career by just working through uni
ionic totem
well thats true, i was thinking of studying abroad also, but honestly, the pay here in my country for the it industry is just bonkers
gilded valley
Why do you not want to go to university?
If its just being in a hurry to start working, I wouldn't weight that too heavily. You're going to spend 40+ years of your life working, and at most 3/4 in university
ionic totem
i was thinking to study in one of those free education coutries, the nordic ones like denmark, it would be a nice experience , to have international connections, but i dont think i would be able to live there... there are some uvs in english, which there is no problem, but its hard living in that society without knowing their language
gilded valley
Hm - I know some Romanians who are studying here in the UK, and they seem to enjoy it. I'm not sure what it would be like studying elsewhere in the EU
ionic totem
well, its a bit of two things... it would be nice to start earning some money for myself, but the second one, the education system in our country is just a bad joke.
gilded valley
Yeah, I've heard its not great. I think if I were you, I'd investigate what its like studying somewhere in the EU
ionic totem
i have friends who done some it unis here in the country, because the pay is so crap for the teachers, they just dont even try.. some of them just have some powerpoint presentation of every lection
and just play that because their pay is just too low, the only good think about universities in my countries is that usually companies will assure you a job even before you graduate
for it ,at least
it*
IT*
i will look into studying abroad ,probably uk, and how the pay is there
the thing here, the it is literally the most in demand here, and the pays are just astronomical compared to other proffesions
an IT here ,with no experience in a year he almost doubles his salary
gilded valley
So I definitely can't speak for Romania - but I'd be wary of anyone singing the praises of IT or CS as an easy way to make money without a degree. In the UK/US/Other-EU countries, I've heard of very smart people struggling to find a job without a degree
ionic totem
well, im not among the type of guys who jumped on the IT after seeing the good pay, ive been passionate about this domain since i was little, its just convinient for me that the pay is good
well i will look further ... ,i will probably have to do a pro and cons sheet and just compare my options
the good part is, you have a job garranted if you finish an IT uni here .. but compared to abroad unis, this one is just a hassle.... , i know some unis abroad have internships and stuff like that can lead to jobs after graduation, but here in this country, the companies literally scout people from unis because they need people
so its almost 100% youre gonna get a job here, honestly if in uk the internships and the uni-companies relationships are like here , there is no point in not going abroad
gilded valley
If you put in effort during university, it seems pretty easy to secure a job for when you're graduating
in the UK at least
modest grove
Hello Guys is there any interview question which ask you to use set and sorting algorithms to solve the question like any example could help me
hushed kestrel
Google the stuff 😦
There are lots of online things about coding interviews
And yes.
Technical interviews might ask you to show off sorting algos
vital imp
has anyone here started to collect page of links for code interviews, white boarding, etc?
vivid sparrow
Why do companies ask you to do that when language has a sort function?
limber rampart
being able to do so demonstrates some level of skill or knowledge
its like fizzbuzz - you dont get hired to write fizzbuzz all day, but being able to write it works as a filter in the hiring process
vivid sparrow
Oh right. Thanks kwzrd.
lethal forum
i was thinking to study in one of those free education coutries, the nordic ones like denmark, it would be a nice experience , to have international connections, but i dont think i would be able to live there... there are some uvs in english, which there is no problem, but its hard living in that society without knowing their language
@ionic totem
As someone living in "one of those free education countries". We don't really have those any more. Unless you can speak e.g. Danish, Finnish, Norwegian or Swedish...
Also as another said, having a degree doesn't remotely guarantee you a job. Moving abroad also means you have to start from scratch. You literally have to build a name for yourself overseas, learn the language of the county you move to, slowly build a credit score, make friends, integrate and of course prove that you're better suited to the job instead of a native.
Also I resent people referring to any country that offers free education as a "free education county". That's not a good mindset.
vapid jay
yay! free education! effective tax rate 60% when you calculate the full tax rate the employer + employee pays all together!
mighty portal
I know this may be a stupid question, but what kind of jobs can I do if I want to work in the python?
thin vigil
@mighty portal games , sites , plugins , platforms , code languages
mighty portal
ok 👍
thin vigil
dam bruh ngl i feel so bad in all of you guys , you guys are good developers while i'm just kinda starting out
graceful stone
add machine learning and AI
ancient wave
Hey guys I want learn python
Anyone here have a forum or platform or something online I can tag along to for proper direction on how to kick start
I know the internet has all the information I need but something about a joint learning experience that just works for me..I'd be totally grateful
keen socket
hi all.I think I have a good base in python, and I want to start moving in the direction of becoming a freelancer. What freelance jobs/projects are popular right now, and what should I learn for them? Do I need to lean new languages to use with Python?
How to become Python freelancer?
white karma
I’d also like to know
mild zenith
!resources @ancient wave We've got a bunch of suggested resources to get you started in the language
inner wrenBOT
vapid jay
@keen socket I'm a python freelancer but I don't have any work right now. it's not very hard to be an unemployed freelancer.
I'm negotiating about some work though so I might have some work though so who knows.
white karma
Full stack is like a jack of all trades right
vapid jay
kind of
but for web development
it's like
python back-end
mostly
and than some other stuff
like jQuery, bootstrap, css, html, js, django
it's alot of languages and frameworks
but it's worth it, i think.
i think the hardest part is getting your first job
white karma
That seems to be a common theme
vapid jay
best bet is to go around your local city
talk to local small buisnesses
and make em websites for kinda cheap
something like 20/hour matters where
im talking midwest
and build up your portfolio
white karma
Might be a little more tricky in SoCal
vapid jay
true
in the midwest it works like a charm
everyone wants a interactive website
not that garbage from wix and wordpress
white karma
I could advertise my services on social media and the like
But I’d be really hard pressed to get a job like that here without incredible luck or a show of real craftsmanship
lament siren
Guys, I really need a piece of advice from experienced people. Got my first two offers today: a large company (50 cities) with a legacy product to support and a smaller company with an amazing product where they'll be accepting me for the core of a new project? The larger company obviously offered 20% more in salary, but I heard from IT-friends in my area that there's nothing to learn there and people mostly stagnate. On the other hand, in the smaller company we established amazing contact with my future mentor and project manager and I enjoy what they are doing.
agile hemlock
you sound much more excited about the smaller company
lament siren
In the smaller one they said not only I will work on Django backend but they got lots of bigdata and deep learning involved and willing to teach me.
agile hemlock
money isn't everything. i don't know your personal situation but the way you talk about each offer it sounds like you would be happier at the smaller company. just my opinion.
lament siren
So basically it's a choice between 20% profit, better office and goods against powerful experience in a smaller company where I'm not going to be treated like a cog
@agile hemlock thanks a lot for answering, that's exactly what I'm feeling. My parents are not forcing me to leave the house or anything (im 21) and I don't even have to pay rent so money isn't everything.
I'm also self-taught and it's a huge step for me getting these two offers. I guess u understand why I'm overthinking everything so much.
agile hemlock
it sounds like you are being very considerate. that is a good thing for such a big decision.
lament siren
Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what's better for my future - large company or developing a core for an amazing project
It's a lot to take xD
agile hemlock
you are very young, you don't even really need to worry about your future yet hah
especially in your situation where you don't have to pay rent, go for happiness and growth over the financial security. again just my opinion though.
ember pelican
from my perspective, developing a core makes it more likely that you can find better positions later, since it would be more impressive than sitting around all day
agile hemlock
that too
ember pelican
as long as the smaller company offers enough of a salary, i would go there
lament siren
@ember pelican yeah exactly, that's what my friend who's a senior told me. His exact words were like 'do you actually wanna fucking sit there and support their legacy shit instead of actually CREATING the tech? are you fucking high?'
ember pelican
by creating the tech, you make it more likely that you'd get even better offers
since higher caliber positions generally care about experience a lot, showing that you are capable of developing the core of an amazing project is a good thing
vapid jay
you would probably be fine taking the smaller offer and you wouldn't feel much of a difference
ember pelican
that way, if you ever have a reason to leave the job at the smaller company, you have a better chance of getting into a good position
agile hemlock
and you'll actually learn more by building
than trying to learn a legacy code base
vapid jay
that sounds miserable ngl
ember pelican
if the 20% really matters that much to you, @lament siren then by all means, join the larger company. but i think most of the people here think that the smaller company is a much better option.
vapid jay
most legacy code is miserable to work with
lament siren
@ember pelican i dont chase the money friend, it's not the reason i left everything and decided to become a software developer. more of a sudden passion
thanks a lot for the answers, that really helps
ember pelican
if it is based on passion, that's even more of a reason to join the smaller company
lament siren
i'll go with the smaller one because i liked the people more and the project is fantastic
vapid jay
i'm asuming it's not a startup?
lament siren
nono, that company already created a transport-monitoring system for my city
like buses are tracked and the fuel is calculated
vapid jay
sounds neat
lament siren
i can't really find the right words to explain in details, but it's pretty much what they do. They developed their own algorithms to calculate everything and there's a lot of data involved because reports are being sent back like every 5 seconds
Everyone is my city uses their service because you can track the bus and know when it's the time to head to the bus station, something like that
lament siren
They made originally made it for the government and now they got lots of custom offers on that thing, and the new project is basically a complete rework of that system for other clients using new algorithms and modern tech as well as features
ember pelican
sounds cool, i think you'd enjoy it a lot
lament siren
@ember pelican they don't, they got paid by the city to develop this thing because they were the only ones who were able to develop such thing here
They said they're planning on using lots of deep learning and big data this time to automate things even further and that what really made me interested in them. I can learn so much
lament siren
Oh and it's a cloud service as well
I don't think they have stock options, just a local company
Like 30 guys in the office
lament siren
nono im in siberia, it's hard to find anyone willing to do anything than javascript and websites here
vapid jay
wait are you serious
lament siren
yep
vapid jay
lolol
lament siren
that's why i'm self-taught as well because they would only teach you php in the uni
vapid jay
i didn't know siberia had any infastracture
ember pelican
lol
lament siren
Western Siberia is very developed in terms of infrastructure
ember pelican
western russia in general is more developed than eastern russia
vapid jay
interesting place
lament siren
it's pretty much where all the gas and oil is, and my city is the heart of western siberia and pretty much the core transfer point between deep north and western russia
when the goods are transferred their only way to reach Moscow, for example, is to go through my city and pay us the bills
vapid jay
neat
lament siren
yeah pretty dope
vapid jay
always wanted to go to siberia, most specifically Yuzhny Island
lament siren
and i believe my new company does all the road computing and analysis for such transfers, at least they provide a solution which already made them 5 contracts
check out the city of Tyumen, it's where I live
vapid jay
looks fairly developed
ember pelican
was literally trying to find that, landed on the tyumen wikipedia page as you said that
vapid jay
how's COL in siberia
lament siren
@vapid jay it's very developed but not in IT. Real estate, oil and gas, industrial are the most profitable fields here.
what's COL exactly?
vapid jay
cost of living
lament siren
it's not really that expensive but constantly grows due to lots of people migrating here from north, basically because my city acts as a kind of midpoint between everlasting snow and civilization
vapid jay
makes sense
lament siren
the quality of life is on #1 in Russia tho
thin vigil
what.
lament siren
and there's a growing enthusiasm for IT in my region which i really appreciate and going to support throughout my career
@thin vigil m?
lament siren
go ahead
thin vigil
i thought canada was the 1 quality of life O_O
lament siren
oh, what i was saying is that my city has the highest quality of life in the country
lament siren
no shit Canada/Norway/New Zealand are A LOT better and Russia is nowhere close even to western europe
avg salary here is like 500$ lol
which is nothing in the US but you can live off of it here
you'll be very tight on goods but defo can survive on 500$/month INCLUDING rent
thin vigil
US ...has gone down
school shootings
debt to other countries
more poor people
etc.
lament siren
I get it how you can be poor in the US, but it doesn't make any sense to me sometimes due to the fact how much support your government provides to it's citizens
I mean compared to my place obviously
But AFAIK medicine is fucking insanely expensive in the states and free here lol
raven mica
@lament siren to give another data point - I'm a guy who took the safe, high paying job in my industry. 8 years later, I consider it a mistake; not a disaster, but still a mistake. I made good money, job security has always been good, but I've been very bored for a few years, and there's no clear path to something better. I'll probably mostly top out where I'm at, roughly speaking. I'm currently seeking a fairly drastic change to get back to interesting things that are less certain but more fun and also more impressive on the CV/resume. So in case you needed any further encouragement - go for the small company with the rad tech. Do the safe stuff if you need to once you're old, that option will always be there. The inverse is not necessarily true.
lament siren
@raven mica those are some really wise words man! Thank you for writing at all that, really appreciate it!
raven mica
@lament siren 🍻
hushed kestrel
Why can't you go from safe to not safe? Is it that your life is settled or something? @raven mica
raven mica
No, not quite. I'm only 35 and still optimistic for making the jump. My previous career is in industrial process control. It seemed very exciting to me (it's a rad place where software meets hardware in places of enormous scale and crazy quantities of pressure/temperature/toxicity etc lol) buuut...I realized after a while it's a fundamentally boring space. By the nature of the business, it's very risk averse (as it should be). So I've been working my way toward software dev jobs.
The problem is that when you do that job for a long time, like many jobs, you're most (and almost only) qualified to do more of that job.
hushed kestrel
Right. I went into hardware engineering from physics and now spent the last 3 years learning python to the point where now I need to specialize in some discipline I think. I have absolutely no idea where to go. (I'm applying to startups around the bay area and getting traction in the 3d printing space which is like..I don't know if that is the coolest space ever.)
raven mica
I feel you on that. 3d printing is like a rad technology that didn't quite fully take off. Bet it'll be gangbusters 50 years from now, seems like we don't have the material sciences quite right to really make it awesome.
hushed kestrel
I mean, it's fine working/creating CNCs all day for hyper precise tasks (I want to make at some point a high quality cookie froster that rivals grandmas ) But it doesn't seem to have the potential as ML, cloud database admin, computer vision nonsense (A bit prohibitive given that innovation happens at the PhD level)
raven mica
Yeah, I feel you. Also everything ML/AI has been hyped to death lol, feels corny to even say "I wanna do that!" ...on the other hand, real companies are using that shit heavily, and Python is a truly strong factor in that work. All jokes aside, corny or not, I'd love that to be my mid- to long-term result.
hushed kestrel
Yeah. I just have no idea where to go or who even to seek advice from given most people just specialize into one area and no very little about each other.
raven mica
Why are you leaving hardware engineering? That seems like a strong industry and potentially satisfying. To me anyway.
hushed kestrel
I have experience developing low speed sub 1ghz boards. I've worked along side some super electronics bros..The life sucking lab experience (which ironically I am pretty good at) is very sucking
raven mica
Okay, 100% get that!
hushed kestrel
I am looking to make oodles of money and hardware just doesn't seem to be the space for that
raven mica
That's the bummer (to me) about school vs real life, haha. A lot of the things that are extremely exciting in theory get very drab and boring on the job just due to the nature of the industries.
hushed kestrel
I don't mind being apart of the process and guiding development, but there are some people who love the engineering and I only love the effect
raven mica
10-4.
You use meetup.com? There's gotta be like...multiple groups even within your own zip code for the stuff you're tryna get into, if you're in the Bay Area, lol
hushed kestrel
I went to hardware meetups a lot (3 years ago? ) But it was filled with lots of hopefuls and only 1-3 people with experience or something?
I am sure now that I have broken in that I can get more utility out the meetups maybe? (I know 2-4 people who run the biggest hardware ones in the bay area)
raven mica
So just to be clear, you're not certain what direction you wanna move in? Like that's the question you're tryna answer?
hushed kestrel
After learning dunder methods in python, taking an algo class, having gone through a dozen books.. I need to start learning packages and practical stuff
I still need to learn how to manage a project, but that will come with time.
But I shouldn't throw my hardware experience under the bus, so working at the intersection between the two seems like a good step? I've been applying to automate laboratory equipment but from the couple dozen places I've applied most people are like "UHHHH...yeah.. No."
raven mica
Okay. Sounds like you're in a sorta similar place to me. Like...you can get a job doing what you're already doing, but getting a different job is almost harder than for a fresh grad maybe.
If you care to say, how old are you? I'm asking just because if you're in your twenties, seems perfectly reasonable to do what you're trying to do - get a job that sort of bridges the gap between what you can prove you can do and what you want to do
hushed kestrel
30
raven mica
And I guess I'd also ask what do you mean specifically by "UHHHH...yeah.. No" 😂
hushed kestrel
WELl
They don't get back to me and i can't derive useful feedback from them. So I just get a "Yah, no, sorry, we're either not going to respond or just like, give you a blanket email."
I have a lot of project experience but my work experience for the past decade has been pretty sparse? I got my first serious hardware role last year which lasted about a year
so maybe 2-3 years industry experience in the last 5 -6? where I have done my own consultancy which more or less failed (I did a lot of projects which was nice)
I have limited embedded programming experience which seems to be a hindrance to just make MCU based boards
But that is a career onto itself.
raven mica
Okay, I dig all that. So, from a somewhat anonymous guy on the internet, being blunt, here's what it seems like to me - you're applying for jobs with a mediocre resume in a place where people go seeking jobs who have unbelievable resumes. To be clear, my own resume is mediocre. I could be dead ass wrong, but it could be that's the problem you're facing.
hushed kestrel
I hear that. I actually very much doubt that other people will have a more impressive resume than I have for the lab automation jobs that they are requiring TBH.
raven mica
The other thing I'll say is this - every professional job I've ever gotten has come in some way from someone I knew. Which isn't to say I've been handed shit, not by any means, and I have excelled and beat out other candidates and done a great job at the thing, etc. But I really do think applying blind is much harder than having an "in" of any kind.
hushed kestrel
I think that is true. I am applying to business labs, not university/national labs
dry sapphire
yeah...that, basically
hushed kestrel
So it is a bit different of a field if that helps clarify things
dry sapphire
I've smashed more or less every single technical interview I've ever gotten
but the ratio of applications:interviews is like 10:1
it's quite offputting
hushed kestrel
It's worse than that for me. But only in recent have I been applying to more junior roles for whatever reason and getting interview after interview
It's pretty strange.
I thought that maybe I was weak with my resume, but I actually seriously doubt there are that many people out there with a physics background with the ability to design mechanical, electrical parts with software (read python) integration with data analysis
hushed kestrel
I do feel having an 'in' is obviously the way to go.
raven mica
Yep, the "in" bypasses all that horseshit.
hushed kestrel
Luckily I managed to get a phone interview by a companies head of hardware, which went much better than just a qualitative thing with HR
raven mica
Hell, I don't know the statistics, but I'm reasonably certain that a really significant number of jobs are never really publicly advertised, anyway.
hushed kestrel
I only got lucky because the position they posted apparently has very little to do with who they wanted
Or they are going out of the way to create a position for me just because I'm so awesome ? or something
raven mica
That definitely happens too. What's your mechanism for showing your projects? Just CV? Or is it on your GitHub? Portfolio site?
hushed kestrel
A dropbox
Or google drive link that contains some stuff
There is a PDF writeup on a project I got done + a supplemental python resume, my personal lab setup and some example projects
raven mica
Cool man. I don't think I have any real help to offer, lol. Keep pushing and keep the goal in focus. If you've "done your homework" and you're qualified, try to meet people and keep pushing 🤷♂️ Rejection is tiring, especially anonymous/indirect rejection, but keep goin 🤙
hushed kestrel
I don't even care about rejection as much as the timeline of being accepted >.o
But right now just getting any job over 100k is good enough, especially in the startup space.
But I can only do application work for maybe 2-4 h/ a day
So I have extra time to practice/focus/learn other stuff and I am a bit directionless
raven mica
Find some meetups dude. Even if it's only tangentially related. The perspective you get just from literally hearing two other people's conversation is worthwhile. I could be missing the mark but you sound isolated. Or maybe I'm projecting, lol
raven mica
Lol well your face is invisible so that does pose a challenge
hushed kestrel
Yeah, I can wear bandages
raven mica
Naw but really, that's the key man. Just get out there and get sitting in a chair while someone else talks. Baby steps, it's fine. I'm not great at groups, it's something ya gotta force a little. You're in one of the hubs of tech for the world. Doing technical projects on your own is like, 15% utilization of the resources you have available.
If you aren't gonna make yourself participate in that abundance, you should be applying to jobs in way smaller places. Might suit you better overall, and relocation packages aren't exactly rare.
hushed kestrel
Networking probably is incredibly relevant. I get mostly stuck in studying which I feel is impossible to do with other people around as I've found at least in tech most people actually aren't looking to put the time in or take the matter seriously. So studying alone has been very productive. I've started listening to tech talks online, I don't believe the quality of people /meetups are going to be that informative, but it is probably incredibly useful just to get a network going
(I am used to moving every 6 or so months for the past 10-15 years, so I don't have a lot of systems in place to maintain friendships / networks. It is something I'm putting effort/money/time into. )
raven mica
I dig that, all of it, truly. I moved away from my home state where I had mucho friends and connections and I figured it'd be easy to establish something at least similar here, but noooope, haha.
To your point about other people who aren't taking things as seriously, you're absolutely right, and what's funny/not-funny is I'm sure there are people in your own city who hold a job you want who do a worse job of it than you would.
But I'll go ahead and out myself here and get off my high horse - I've been doing the isolated "learn whatever tech stack" thing for a couple years off and on here, and I've gotten good at Python. But I went to my first ever meetup thing last night, solo, and it was way better than I even coulda guessed. It was fun for one thing, but I sat there and listened to people chat who knew each other and talked about available jobs, what they'd been doing, there were old heads and students, the whole range.
And the host kicked off the thing by asking newbies to introduce themselves (not terrible), then mentioning the companies that were hiring, then asking the people in the room looking for jobs to talk about what they were after.
hushed kestrel
Maybe things have progressed, I was turned off by the process of attending 10-15 meetup groups while I was living in SF. I tried joining some programming meetups but they ended up being silent study sessions. I can imagine this is a situation where you swing until you hit.
raven mica
So anyway, that's long as fuck and again, it was literally a day ago and my only experience with the thing, but seriously, it told me a whole lot about how just getting good at any given technology is pretty shallow on its own.
Yeah, could be I'm dead wrong about what the scene out there is like 🤷♂️
Seems a little absurd just on face value that my much smaller tech hub would have a high quality (and Python-centric, to boot) group and SF wouldn't.
hushed kestrel
UH
raven mica
Anyway. I'm not gonna keep beating this dead horse. I'm having a similar problem you are, so no real reason to listen to me anyway, lol.
hushed kestrel
I wouldn't be surprised actually. If your smaller hub has only 1-2 places, they are usually created by those most enthused by the subject and maintained by them. In the bay area there are dozens and dozens of meetups that have lots of different purposes, so you don't have a huge huge concentration of talent exactly
I think it's interesting just relaying experiences at the very least.
raven mica
Yeah I agree.
hushed kestrel
I'll go to 1-4 places in the next two weeks and see how that goes.
(I also have been putting off social stuff just because I could be moving because of job searching crap )
(But that could just be a self justification sorta thing )
raven mica
Yeah, I recognize my own excuses in yours 😂
raven mica
I recently hit the point where I felt competent enough to apply for dev jobs. I'm now looking to solve the "next problem", and that requires getting out of my comfort zone. I can avoid it and get older, or I can just do it. So I am 🤷♂️ good luck to you my dude! I'm signing off
hushed kestrel
Just being aware of feedback cycles and having objective criteria to base your behavior around is 99% there. It's fine to have preferences as long as they align with your goals
Goodluck!
raven mica
🍻
raven mica
Lol who knows where I'll end up, only thing I know I don't want is DevOps and front end. Hardware sounds rad.
split tree
im looking into game development for my job so is python easy to use for it?
ive only ever used it in a shell btw
sterile vault
Easy? Yes. Is it a good idea for commercial projects? Probably not.
sterile vault
Then why not 🙂
split tree
😄
sterile vault
I think i saw a wildly successful indie game written in Delphi
split tree
whats delphi?
sterile vault
Nope, not Delphi, VB6
sterile vault
Aurora 4x. Basically, a passion project with a small, but dedicated following.
split tree
lol
dry sapphire
🤢
sterile vault
That's not even indie gaming final form
split tree
isnt csharp the main one for game dev?
sterile vault
Damn, can't find a strategy game which is built on top of, basically, time-showing program
C# if for Unity, C++ is for UE4 and making your own engines
marsh wind
I do feel having an 'in' is obviously the way to go.
@hushed kestrel what does this mean?
hushed kestrel
A personal connection
elder wind
is there a reason why python isnt good for commercial game development? Is it due to its slow processing speed
onyx raft
Even dart, with its new VM is faster than python
CPython that is
And Python has this stupid community which won't start using PyPy as their main distribution
so there's that. Also openGL bindings are probably complicated
or whatever other API you'd like to call from python (directX or vulkan)?
I guess there are a few reasons for that
And dumb scientific community keeps writing the extensions for python in pure C, making them hard to use with different python distributions (pypy, Jython, ironpython?) in commercial big softwares.
Basically at this state all python is good for is for education, toy-start up projects that will get rewritten or optimised with cython (which is rewriting) and creating model for machine learning that later will be reimplemented in C++ or any other language that has bindings to keras or the pytorch models (open somethingsomething openAI - I don't remember)
bascially, python is a trap
quick prototype guy, automation scripts, build tools - there's place for python there in its current state
/rant
gilded valley
Pretty clearly the wrong channel for this - also a pretty not-great argument
indigo sleet
that is probably one of the most incorrect rants I've seen in some time, sorry
yes, OpenGL/etc bindings are complex. as they are in almost every language.
PyPy is not suitable for all applications, and does not speed up all applications
additionally, the scientific community must write a lot of C extensions purely because things would be far too slow otherwise
C extensions are still more or less portable though, by providing wheels for download or by having the developer install a compiler
Python has a massive amount of use in enterprise these days too - not just for data science and automation, but particularly in the web sphere
django is very common, for example
one's frustrations should be addressed, but the correct way is not to say "python is shit for all these things I haven't figured out yet"
however, yes, Python is a bad match for game development due to its speed (something pypy doesn't fix) and lack of support by major engines
(that's not to say there aren't ways to write games - kivy, pygame, pyarcade, etc exist - but you won't be making the next assassins creed with it)
vale heart
to the point regarding python game dev: it depends on the kind of game you want to make. ren'py for example is a visual novel engine made in python, and several games using that have been published on steam. also i think there are a couple pygame platformers on steam as well. there are also game engines that either have python bindings or use python in an auxiliary capacity for extra scripting and such. e.g. godot engine lets you use python to program the entire game.
check out what's going on in #game-development some time, some stuff in there might interest you
@elder wind
gilded valley
There are also major games using Python out there - World of Tanks and Eve Online
indigo sleet
godot doesn't actually support python
it supports a python-like custom language
it's pretty similar though
sterile vault
Mount and blade has in-house Python engine
gilded valley
Eve is
sterile vault
But i have no idea how they managed to do that
indigo sleet
Eve absolutely is not
gilded valley
Eve is apparently all python all the way down
indigo sleet
The game logic probably is
the rendering absolutely isn't
Python is pretty good for embedding into games, though
sterile vault
Nitpick - almost all commercial games use C++ for graphics/physics
indigo sleet
if you wanted to provide a scripting language or modding language
vale heart
gdude, no
indigo sleet
although lua is more popular
indigo sleet
Oh, huh, I was misinformed then
sterile vault
So if no game is written using python, then the same can be said for Java or C#
indigo sleet
that's not actually the argument I was making