that's toughhhhh
#career-advice
pale yacht
torpid bolt
i would say it's almost as common as django these days, but i don't have numbers
pale yacht
because coding for one hour in my opinoin requires a lot more work than let's say teaching for one hour
mint citrus
false
pale yacht
bro coding for one hour straight is aloooooot
torpid bolt
teaching is certainly a lot harder
mint citrus
no it isnt
pale yacht
how many lines do you code per minute
pale yacht
the guy is gonna get angry if you say that you were dealing with a bug for one hour wouldn't he
mint citrus
lines pls
torpid bolt
teaching 30 people in front of you? that's very tiring
pale yacht
I miss communicated that but I meant like get work done
torpid bolt
some days you write dozens of lines, some days you write one, some days you delete 2000
mint citrus
some days you go to church
torpid bolt
(i don't, but you do you)
pale yacht
bro if you write one line a day they will like kick you out
mint citrus
when shit was going south
torpid bolt
ok 🙂
mint citrus
no they wont @pale yacht
pale yacht
bro 1 lineeee
torpid bolt
sometime finding that line to write takes a lot of time
pale yacht
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jlknj_wq8CQ lol watch this guys' intro
torpid bolt
oh yeah, a few weeks ago i spent one week looking at code, looking for the source of a leak, didn't find it, one week, senior engineer, came up empty handed
didn't get fired
torpid bolt
anyway, good night, maybe tomorrow i'll write some code, who knows 🙂
mint citrus
and dont fall for pyramid schemes pls
pale yacht
what do you mean
mint citrus
if you want to get somewhere, stop watching youtube, do your own thing. make something, learn, expand your abilities
pale yacht
wait really
pale yacht
bro when you apply for a job don't they expect you to know like everything incase some guy gets sick
that's what that guy said on yt
mint citrus
not really no
and after awhile you start to be able to grasp the basic ideas about things
but like... you dont know everything
pale yacht
so how easy would you say finding a job for you was if I may ask
pale yacht
bro but like what do you do in those three months
like how do you pay for rent and such
pale yacht
like lets say you just came out of uni
mint citrus
last one I was working remote for 3 months
mint citrus
well i lived at my parents after uni
pale yacht
oh that's very kind of them bro
pale yacht
wait do people do that
pale yacht
lol it's not about the money, it's about having parents 😆
mint citrus
more and more cant afford living outside of their parents house during uni
pale yacht
bro are you still in debt
mint citrus
no
pale yacht
nice bro
mint citrus
I didnt take a loan
pale yacht
oh
mint citrus
I worked two jobs during uni
pale yacht
was it expensive
mint citrus
was 2k every semester
pale yacht
bro but don't you have to pay like 20k before you start or some shit
pale yacht
so they can tell you are serious
mint citrus
no?
pale yacht
I heard they have to check your bank account
mint citrus
what?
pale yacht
like just the balance because they want you to pay
mint citrus
wait what country?
pale yacht
yeah maybe
bro if you were lets say a person who works for hr to like hire people, would you hire a Harvard graduate or like a regular uni graduate if they both have the same qualifications
pale yacht
wiat really
mint citrus
depends on if they can think
pale yacht
I thought it was a matter of reputation
I thought the reason people wanted to get into Haravard so bad was because like it has the greatest reputation and like if you go there, you are a genius by default
mint citrus
a poor HR would prob hire without thinking
sure they have a reputation
sure you will get places easier
but if person B without a harvard edu does a better job, he will get hired
mint citrus
I think if you work hard and have things to prove it, you will end up on top.
getting a CS or going to a high ranking school only gets your foot in the door easier
also getting a CS makes it easier for applying in other countries
pale yacht
Woooo waaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaa
is it common for people to do that tho
because I thought that Canada/US had the best market for cs
pale yacht
do you speak German
mint citrus
hmm.. i need my flags lol
pale yacht
I can imagine how hard it would be to move into a new country by yourself
mint citrus
ja ich spreche duetsch
pale yacht
lol waaa
mint citrus
well.. i have dual citizenship so that really made it easy
pale yacht
what's dual citizenship
my bad
but if you had the same opportunity to come back to work in the U.S would you come back
pale yacht
yeah it must be really hard moving to another country by yourself
oh waaa
do you speak Thaliand
language
mint citrus
nope
I can get in a taxi and get home
thats about it
yeah its a difficult language
but really, in the tech industry english is used
mint citrus
so I get by with speaking english
pale yacht
and I think french is good to have as well
mint citrus
i left the US cause crazy as it sounds, it was difficult to get a good job in my area
and it was easier to just hop on a plane to Germany
pale yacht
that's kinda scary tbh
was the interview by like google hangouts or did you fly there and did the interview
mint citrus
and I left Germany because housing was shit in Berlin and was running me out of money
I flew there, and looked for a job for 3 months
mint citrus
well.... i technically am not a foreigner according to my passports
pale yacht
oh yeah but you know what I meant
mint citrus
they hired me in thailand tho because I am a foreigner
pale yacht
like is it common for companies to hire foreigners cuz otherwise you must be gooood af
mint citrus
thailand is a 3rd world country even tho its fairly well developed
mint citrus
its very common for companies to hire foreigners
pale yacht
oh
pale yacht
i heard php was hard
mint citrus
frontend was so simple before.
now frontend is so damn complicated
php is fine
was so inconsistent before tho but with php 7 its much better
pale yacht
imo backend coding is more fun
mint citrus
depends from person to person
pale yacht
lmao idk what that is bro
mint citrus
I want to leave frontend
pale yacht
do you use a framework or do you do pure css html
pale yacht
wholly you must be making really sick designs then
mint citrus
no
pale yacht
lmao all I do is just put a background picture
mint citrus
im not 
pale yacht
mint citrus
im a terrible designer
pale yacht
noo you aint bruh you have a full-time front end developing job position
bro do you like that website
mint citrus
my job title is actually application developer
pale yacht
so you work a lot with gui
mint citrus
the people here are a bit clueless so im stuck doing a bit of everything
no actually
most of my work is backend
pale yacht
and what do you use for that
mint citrus
react is frontend library
pale yacht
do you deal with a lot of databases
final thistle
@pale yacht please break the habit of saying the r word, even if aimed to yourself
pale yacht
I apologize I will not use it again
mint citrus
boss keeps calling it oracle.... but its not
would love oracle above DB2
what r word?
pale yacht
like saying very stupid
how many collages do you have in thaliand
are they all from the us
mint citrus
oh
no its actually kinda lame
i work on my own project and there is just one other guy
pale yacht
oh
mint citrus
they all barely speak english except for my boss
pale yacht
that's not bad that means they explicitly picked both of you guys because of your skill
mint citrus
but they offered the most $$$ so i went with them
also a chance to do things here that I might not have the chance at another company
they picked me cause they have no idea what they are doing
pale yacht
i would make a joke but I don't wanna get introuble 😆
mint citrus
so imma fix their shit and then take the next plane back to the US
pale yacht
also a chance to do things here that I might not have the chance at another company
@mint citrus potential joooke here
jk
polar hatch
what does the demand look like for python data science stuff?
basic analysis of datasets/dataframes
vapid jay
glassdoor.. usually is only used to check interview questions and review of companies
gilded valley
glassdoor is also a platofrm for posting job adverts. And like any, its probably fine to apply through
vapid jay
it's better to apply either on the company website or linkedin.. or another job board that's preferred in the country you're applying in
burnt tiger
Glassdoor is a bit infamous for having a smaller number of highly competitive postings. I'd personally recommend LinkedIn (particularly if you've built up a decent profile on there, which can be a great supplement for your resume)
It wouldn't hurt to apply on both though
torpid bolt
Linkedin is also where most of the offers i get, come from, and like most SWE i know there, i just get too many, so i do advise getting a profile and filling it well.
vivid sparrow
On linkedIn I tell recruiters, that contact me about exciting opportunities, "I have no industry experience so I'm unemployable".
vivid sparrow
It's the truth.
torpid bolt
it's normal to openly state your experience or lacktherof, of course, but saying you are unemployable is not your call
let them decide of that
everybody got to start somewhere
and while my knowledges were very limited when i started, i could already do some useful stuff, and since i was cheap at that point, it was fine for them
vivid sparrow
Thanks. I didn't see it that way.
I'm not actually a min-wage developer, I'm a hobbyist that doesn't know how to job search.
It's always puzzled me why there are no minimum wage developer jobs.
There is over supply of entry level developers, yet wages stay higher than minimum. Idk what causes this
torpid bolt
if you do it has a hobby, you certainly have done things, the only issue is that you have no idea how this is relatable to what you would have to do in a company
not all juniors are equaliy good, sadly
so the companies do spend time sorting through them and trying to find the good ones
since they have almost no experience, there are big holes in their knowledges, and that's normal, but when you evaluate them, it can be pretty hard to say if they just didn't learn anything about a particular thing yet, or if they are clueless and not great at learning
vivid sparrow
oh, the good ones wouldn't bother applying if wages were lower?
torpid bolt
because learning is quite important in this job, even when you are experienced, you learn all the times
yes, because the companies fight for them, so they can certainly find a better wage elsewhere
vivid sparrow
Oh ok. Thanks for info.
Most often, the reason I don't apply is the wall of requirements of legitimate companies adverts for juniors(which are rare). They nearly always want full stack and I'm weaker on the backend and they need a different backend language like c#. Or the thought of the third party recruiter advert being fake, and having to endure a phone call with them without there being a job opportunity even. Am I just entitled?
celest bronze
Is it a bad sign if i cant see what salaries employees get ?
There is a place im rather intrested in, Entelect here in SA and i cant really decide if i want to even apply at them, I haven't worked at a compony at all, and im gna finish my degree soon so im scouting ahead of time, any opinions or things i should lookout for?
torpid bolt
@vivid sparrow maybe see requirements more as wishlists, sometime they ask for the skills of the whole team, fullstack + devops + architect, and half a dozen languages, for a junior position, that's just impossible, a lot of experienced engineers don't know all that (i'm much more python than js, i don't consider myself a fullstack engineer, more a backend one, although my experience with kivy, is certainly unconventional, and although i'm a heavy linux users, i'm not really a devops either, i just manage with docker and scripting, i never used k8s or similar large scale solutions), and yet i hold senior/lead dev positions, and i'm lucky enough to think i'm well paid, although i'm in europe, not us, so it doesn't really compare, i'm really doing fine.
also, recruiters earn money when they find you a job, they won't waste time with you if they think you can't get one, if they see an opportunity you will fit in, they'll push you there, you can use that to your advantage, because the better you can express what you are looking for, the more chances are they'll find you a decent opportunity.
don't hesitate to talk to multiple recruiters at the same time, they are used to it, and the more opportunities, the better for you
you can even talk to them about earning targets, their earnings are often correlated to yours, so if you ask for more and they think it's possible, they'll be enthousiastic about it, and do their best to sell that to the company.
and as they only earn if you stay in the position long enough (often 3 months in my experience, but can certainly vary), they want you to fit in the position, so their interests do align a lot with yours.
you want to go to interviews, even if a lot of them will not get you the job, you need to practice for that, learn the ropes, meet the people, get a sense of what's real.
vivid sparrow
Thanks tshirtman, that's really helpful.
torpid bolt
happy to help, good luck 🙂
vivid sparrow
Should I accept 3rd party recruiter's request to add me to their network?(they haven't messaged me/know me) I heard they are just trying to look more connected to companies, and there isn't any benefit to developer. I don't like to be rude, but I wonder, if a company is looking through LinkedIn for a developer and see's someone connected with 20-30 recruiters, does it look bad?
heavy plover
no
there's literally 0 downside to having a larger network on linkedin
the more people you have as connections the more visibility you get, and it also promotes your profile more
vivid sparrow
I see. Thanks for info Snazzle.
rare sand
@vivid sparrow agreed with @heavy plover 100%. I have hundreds of recruiters in my linkedin, it really does help with exposure. For a while I was getting opportunities every week. It's how I found my current job, which is the best job I've ever had.
nobody ever even mentioned to me that I seemed to have a lot of recruiters in my network
vivid sparrow
Thanks for info Lemon. From a 3rd party recruiter you got ur job?
vivid sparrow
Oh nice.
rare sand
and I had no real intention to leave my job at the time
but the offer was just too good to refuse.
vivid sparrow
Sounds fun. I wouldn't know what a good job looks like 🙂 prob cause never had software job.
rare sand
before I got my first software job, linkedin didn't do much for me
but as soon as I had my first one, opportunities really started flowing in
vivid sparrow
Cool. May I ask how you got it? the first one.
rare sand
blood, sweat and tears. I applied to a bunch, interviewed for a bunch, finally found an employer willing to give me a chance even though I didn't have relevant education. they gave me a take-home interview assignment (build a URL-shortener), I built the shit outta it and they offered me a junior position.
vivid sparrow
Oh, nice going.
stable gust
right now im in my last semester of college and so far its been a complete waste of time so im probably going to focus one language (python) and just pray lol
vivid sparrow
Waste of time why? I never went to college, always wondered what it's like.
stable gust
so the one i go to only has two computer science professors
and one of them is great
i learn a shit ton but the other is really old and honestly knows nothing
gilded valley
Which country are you based in?
stable gust
for example for a operating systems class he made our text book a 16 dollar operating systems interview questions book that has no structure at all
and im us
vivid sparrow
Oh, that doesn't sound fun.
stable gust
the other day for this operating systems class because he was "upset" he made us find 4 products and list the manufacture headquarters, partners, stock price, and a few other things, and what does this have to do with operating systems
a bootcamp 100% more useful than college but you just dont get this pretty piece of papre
whole shale
I'm in class with him and in information security he just had a 10 minute ramble about genetics and DNA
stable gust
and from what i read unless you go to some large college the experience is all the same
vivid sparrow
Oh, glad I didn't go then ^^. Sorry you're having a rough time of it. Python is lots of fun though, good choice.
stable gust
It's no big deal you go for the paper but I would like to see the same prestige behind a coding bootcamp or tech school alternative
whole shale
Really I think that at any other uni he would've been fired a long time ago.
vivid sparrow
Shortage of professors maybe..
stable gust
Definitely is one part of it
radiant moon
Maybe he has tenure
whole shale
he does unfortunately
heavy plover
@stable gust lol we had a professor like that for Operating Systems
He was a former IBM fellow
Retired became an adjunct professor
Dude would go off about the weirdest shit
Also, to your other point @stable gust Google made some pledge to go into the 20s with more consideration for "nontraditional" candidates and a bunch of other companies agreed
The Verge did an article about it
stable gust
@heavy plover would you happen to have a link to that article
stable gust
and im pretty sure that our teacher doesnt have a degree that has anything to so with computer science but way back when he did some work for conoco that related to computers sooo idk how he even got this job
whole shale
he talks like he has a masters, don't know in what though
shadow moss
PUt on Computer Science courses
have you worked ever before?
ok
you never waited tables?
unusual in US but maybe common where you are, put on your computer science sources, clubs and volunteering
it's going to be seen as unusual
but you can work with it
I get that but no HS jobs or anything?
Anyways, put on clubs and volunteering
you are going to have a light resume, people expect that
Do you have any public projects?
mint citrus
hmmmm where in asia?
shadow moss
sure, put your thesis on there
keep total resume size to one page
if you did a group project, put that on there
to start your resume, just toss words at page to begin
projects, volunteering, clubs, different universities you have attended
your 300-400 level classes
you might want to consider recommendation or two ahead of time
gilded valley
Things to include:
- Projects you've worked on (don't necessarily mention that they're coursework)
- Awards you've won
- Soft skills (communication, teamwork et al, but less general)
- Hard skills (programming languages/frameworks, other tools)
- ANY work experience is good
- Failing work experience, talk about your involvement with clubs/societies
- Highlight the most important units you've covered, and include your overall GPA
Also, I saw that you pinged someone. If you've talked with them before, I guess its fine, but its generally pretty poor practice to ping random people if you haven't talked to them before
shadow moss
biggest is start writing it up
professors and such might be willing to help but they want to see first or even second draft
gilded valley
The Resume builders I've seen tend to spread the content out too much
shadow moss
keep it basic unless you are applying to graphic design
or other such artsy profession
mine is Times New Roman bullet masterpiece
radiant moon
mine's courier
as plain-text-like as I could get it
I'm big into plain text, and wanted to be hired by a company that "got" that
shadow moss
yes
radiant moon
no
mint citrus
I use courier too
radiant moon
but I've worked with a couple of interns, and they've been great; a couple of them got "full-timed" (i.e., hired full-time after they finished the internship)
gilded valley
I've done one internship and got another for the coming summer
radiant moon
I've done FTE interviews, but never an intern one
gilded valley
For both interviews the things that worked for me were: being genuine and honest; for example, I discussed failing a year in high school in both which went down well
FTE?
shadow moss
Full Time Employment
gilded valley
ah
radiant moon
I always thought it was "Full-Time Engineer" but whatever
gilded valley
For an example CV format, this looks ok. https://www.overleaf.com/articles/rishi-shahs-resume/vgxvkmxktyxn
Just the layout/style. Not necessarily the headers
I haven't actually read it
gilded valley
From a company's perspective, an internship is an extended job interview; they're checking that you're capable of learning things and being productive in the future
shadow moss
only because your resume will have foreign universities on it, I'd consider noting that
because we get resumes from visa requirement applications and I know our recruiters don't always pay 100% attention to things
it should be asked in job application but people lie and such
mint citrus
yeah that made it difficult for me as well when applying in Germany
shadow moss
or you are authorized for next 2 months and then you need a visa to stay which can also put off employers
mint citrus
most of them thought I needed a visa when I didnt
shadow moss
oh you totally can
you are US citizen, you can work in US freely regardless if you haven't been in country or not
also, do you have US phone number?
get one
get a friend in America to sign you up for cheap VOIP number or something
gilded valley
Its still worth getting a US phone number
shadow moss
Is your Google Account still tied to US?
get the APP on your phone, boom, free US number with VOIP
gilded valley
Can I ask why you're applying for internships in your 4th year? Are you doing a 2 year masters or something?
Do you need to do that to graduate?
In which case, you should apply for graduate roles
and explain your situation
Unless you already have a job for when you graduate, you should apply for 1/1.5/2 year long graduate programs. Assuming you don't need to return to university for a full semester (or more), most companies won't really care that you haven't technically graduated
radiant moon
spend some time on https://www.amazon.jobs/
it's reasonaly easy to use
not certain they have intern openings, but I'd hope they do
shadow moss
also look at non FAANG
radiant moon
I'd hit the giant evil companies first, just because they're giant, and therefore you can fire off a dozen applications to each, in hardly any more time than firing off just one.
once you get down to little mom-and-pop shops, though, you can only fire off one or two applications
so the overhead of learning their website dominates. That's probably where glassdoor makes its money -- by doing that grunt work for you
@vapid pilot then you have more than I had when I got hired
(well, not really; I had 25 years of experience; but I didn't then, and still don't, know Java)
radiant moon
speaking for Amazon: we don't care what programming languages you know.
wintry imp
is there any hope for someone who dropped out from uni in dev jobs ?
torpid bolt
Sure, plenty of working devs were drop out i believe.
Most devs i know don't have a CS education
wintry imp
so u just neeed to be skilled and have a good portfolio ???
icy berry
yes. i think so @wintry imp
wintry imp
well u sound like u wouldnt hire someone like that lul
icy berry
what do you mean? i would hire someone based on their python skills alone
wintry imp
u said, "i think so" so i had doubts about it 😄
icy berry
Im not in the position that I actual hire people. so my opinion is just what i think is true.
that said, most developers I know are also non-CS-educated
wintry imp
oh i c i just wanted to know ppl opinions on it thnx @icy berry
torpid bolt
i don't know what it's like to start these days, i started a few years ago now and it's definitely easier to me now because devs with experience are really looked for. But being able to demonstrate sufficient knowledge of python, and at least some general knowledges about how things work, especially things like the internet/web, (and in particular http), and additional knowledges like databases, is a good starting point, knowing a popular framework like django or flask is also quite useful.
wintry imp
@torpid bolt thnx for ur valuable insight bud.
vivid sparrow
I have trouble with the definition of "knowing" in the context of knowing a language or tool.
How much do you need to know about something, before adding it in the "skills" section of LinkedIn, or on a CV, will not be classed as misleading? I think, to be able to say you know something, you would have to know it really well. Wouldn't it be hard to know something as big as Python(which implies programming in general) really well?
hardy ferry
If you can demonstrate your knowledge by deploying an application then you should be fine. If you only know the basics, the syntax and can write a hello world program then you do know the programming language but you don't really know how to apply it.
In a resume you usually expand on what kind of projects you did and what technologies you used. These build on top of programming languages. You use different libraries, maybe you've written your own. Basically by demonstrating what you've created is a pretty good indicator how comfortable you are with the language.
vivid sparrow
Oh that makes sense. Thanks a lot Linley.
torpid bolt
it's hard, i know python pretty well, have used it for years as my main language, and i think people would agree that i'm a python expert, but i still learn stuff about python pretty frequently. I'm sure even cpython core devs, or even Guido, at this point don't know all there is to know about Python. So yeah, being able to be productive with the language, is what you are looking for, whatever is missing you'll learn on the way, and whatever bad habit you have now, people will tell you about and give you better ways to do.
vivid sparrow
Thanks tshitman.
Someone in another channel said I should add as a skill on my LinkedIn a tool/language I have "dabbled in"/used for about a week. they said "they would be able to get up to speed with something in about a week". But a strong programmer would get up to speed faster than a weak one like myself.
torpid bolt
there is some knowledge transfer, when you know more languages, you pick new ones faster
vivid sparrow
yeah
Does it still apply for me too? Like I've used things for that length of time and wrote something small and useless/uninteresting with it, but I don't have it listed on my linkedin/CV.
torpid bolt
you won't know until you try, imho it's better to have small projects than no projects, it at least gives people something to look at
some think that a dev that doesn't do some in their free time, especially junior ones, is a bad look, i did think like this when i was more junior, and did a lot of dev on my free time, it did serve me well, but i understand that not everybody can afford that, still, it's going to be an advantage if you have things to show.
vivid sparrow
Thanks for info.
hallow arrow
sometimes i feel like "ehh i just im just good at googling, anybody can do this" after I create a web scraper or some other small useful application, even tho theyre pretty awesome, I feel like it really hinders me gauging my own aptitude
is that normal when you're starting?
hallow arrow
ahh yeah i guess thats where my uncertainty lies, because ive always been very quick and efficient at finding the information that i need quickly for as long as i could remember, i guess the complexity of things you need to lookup just evolves over time
torpid bolt
imposteur syndrom is pretty common in the industry, because yeah, the knowledge is diffuse, and when you have internalized it, it seems natural to know all these "basic" things that allow you to find answers to things, and these little strategies you use to solve problems, and there is so much you know you don't know.
but yeah, it's not bad to look back when we learned, and when you build something, look back at the challenges that you faced, and see all the things you had to know or learn to get through.
marsh wind
Also, eventually you will find yourself at the situation where you stop googling certain things cause you did the often enough to remember. But you'll probably always will have to look up things. They just evolve.
I noticed that as you progress sometimes it becomes harder to find solutions on web. And it probably mean that you are start to face above average problems rather than you are bad at looking them up on Google 😉
There's good little joke about it about a guy who was desperate at how to solve some network issue and scrapped every resource to no avail. He brings up his problem ij discussion with colleague who said to look up one person on the specialized forum saying that if anyone knows the answers it's him... And the guy says: 'then I am doomed, because that is me on that forum'
Sorry for this little off-topic but I think while it's somewhat exaggerated it's not far from truth, as you become better at what you do the more complex problems you will face
torpid bolt
yeah, sometime the only person who ever had this issue is you 5 years ago, and you didn't write the solution and you of course forgot about it
hallow arrow
really glad i found this server, thanks a lot for the thoughtful responses! i do tend to have imposter syndrome in my career as well (systems/network engineer) so i guess it makes sense that those feelings just come with the territory for some people
even for some of my certifications ive gotten ive attributed to getting lucky on the exam, guess i have to work on changing that mindset
for now im just trying to hustle and learn as much as i can so i can pursue a career in programming since thats where all the money is at where i live lol
hushed kestrel
@marsh wind This is the same story as from wachmen. " “Heard joke once: Man goes to doctor. Says he's depressed. Says life seems harsh and cruel. Says he feels all alone in a threatening world where what lies ahead is vague and uncertain. Doctor says, "Treatment is simple. Great clown Pagliacci is in town tonight. Go and see him. That should pick you up." Man bursts into tears. Says, "But doctor...I am Pagliacci.”"
@hallow arrow I keep a folder of esoteric solutions that I found and resources to make searching for things faster
I got this system from a senior firmware engineer who programmed expertly in 5-7 languages
It's saved me maybe 10 h of work when i needed to setup automatic mounting of network drives in a raspi
vapid jay
Anyone here a 10x engineer?
torpid bolt
they don't exists
there are some people who work smarter, and they are people who do a lot of features fast but leave a lot to cleanup for others, and they do look like 10x enginers, but they are really making everyone else a .1x
magic leaf
ay, I'm starting my first ever programming job next week
any tips on getting into projects and the team?
shut geyser
Were you the guy with the Payement CRUD
torpid bolt
As with any team, first day, note people's names down, practice them, learning the name of the people in your team is tremendeously useful, you'll have a much easier time asking for help and information.
@magic leaf
magic leaf
@shut geyser Yes!
thanks @torpid bolt i'll do that
i'm kinda scared of fitting into the team and everything
torpid bolt
they should be welcoming and all, if you have questions don't be afraid to ask
torpid bolt
they'll tell you if you ask too much
vapid jay
But I want to learn
torpid bolt
@vapid jay wrong channel
vapid jay
Oh woops
shut geyser
congrats @magic leaf 😄
dry heath
fluid thicket
There are companies that produce data/analytics for lets say, compare prices of a product and sell those to certain business.
They generally use python stacks and a lot of web scrapping
marsh wind
What is the deal with "Seniority level" on linkedin? Do HR/recruiters not care abotu inconsistency of "Entry level" and their requirements?
Like...
"Seniority Level:Entry level"
and...
Reuqirment:
"3+ years industry experience with a strong record of accomplishments and project experience in applications of AI/ML "
sonic citrus
I'm getting into bs4 and Love to work with Selenium for some stuff
shut geyser
Yeah i see it a lot
Junior :
Full Stack with 4 languages, AWS experience and what not
Pay : 2500 € brutto in NL
limber rampart
I guess you could see it as the seniority level of the position, i.e. we want to to have this kind of experience so that you can enter the junior dev position on our team. But it could also mean that they just want an experience person to work for entry level pay
likely a combination of both
shut geyser
What i'm seeing a lot for Junior post is
What we offer you : a pay everymonth
I'm ded serious
What an advantage to not work for free
orchid solstice
if you said you were a 5 out of 10 in python, what would you be expected to know?
gilded valley
Probably just the basic syntax. Lists, functions, simple stuff from the standard lib
shut geyser
Huh
I remember that there was a scale where 8 was " i wrote a book about it" and knowing the syntax was 1
4 was building and deploying small application iirc
gilded valley
If 8 is I wrote a book about it that seems a little silly, what on earth are 9/10?
that means the top 3 are practically never going to be used
torpid bolt
you were part of the authors or commitee that designed it
hm, or maybe 9 is that you wrote the book that people use as a reference
i do remember this scale
gilded valley
I think that scale is pretty out of line with what normal people usee 5-10 scale for. If you think about movies, 7 is an ok movie, 5 is a rubbish movie
shut geyser
I dunno, because if you write a book about one language chances are that you don't suck too much in general
If knowing syntax is 5 what is 1
marsh wind
knowing the name of the language
gilded valley
1 is 0 familiarity with the language
gilded valley
There is no 0. This is a scale of 1 to 10
shut geyser
Alright but still
What is between this and syntax to you
I can't find the scale i was talking about
gilded valley
2-3 is varying degrees of "I have seen and could recognise this language ". 4 Is I've written hello world
2 is "Java uses semicolons right?", 3 is "Yeah, Golang is kinda like C I think"
marsh wind
no wonders why when some guy called me for phone screen and asked for python on scale 1-10 he never get back to me when I said 5/10
😂
gilded valley
I'm pretty sure my version of the scale is much closer to what a normal person would expect
its how we use 1-10 in other areas of life
hallow arrow
yeah but the scale is arbitrary and subjective lol who knows what his expectations were
gilded valley
yeah, that is very true
which is why 1-10 is rubbish
but I still think my interpretation is much closer than 8/10=written a book
shut geyser
Erh idk
marsh wind
Yah, I fucked up myself by saying 5/10 hehe
shut geyser
Then i'm 2/3 in C++ and i've never wrote a line of it
shut geyser
Being able to read and recognize some code is not an amazing skill idk
gilded valley
If you can write Java/C, you could probably figure out how to write very basic c++
marsh wind
Imo as long as you know any language on a decent level you are already at like 3-4/10 or so in all sane programming languages. Cause it won't take you much to write simple code ij jt
gilded valley
I think my 3/4 was probably wrong. Hello world would be 3
or possibly even 2
but I stand by where I put 5
shut geyser
3 would be the skill you obtain in 5 min on the first page ?
Idk
It's like you look at the cover of a book and say 'yeah i know this book'
gilded valley
3 would be a shit day
thats also true - worst case with overselling yourself is you have a shit interview
worst case with underselling, is you don't get anywhere
shadow moss
they seem to understand f"You are doing this for money and not some millennial BS FAMILY {BUZZ_WORD}"
shut geyser
@shadow moss i cropped but there was this also
Still gonna apply to see if it's not recruiterspeak
I have no shame and no self esteem
orchid solstice
@gilded valley What parts of the standard library?
gilded valley
Its not really as specific as that
But some of the more common stuff I guess, random, datetime, I'm not sure. And as we've seen, this is definitely only my opinion, not a clear cut thing
shut geyser
i keep being retarded and made a grammar mistakes in the sentence where i'm saying i talk English Fluently in my cover letter
mellow agate
@shut geyser please don't use the word retarded in such a deprecating manner, even if it's to yourself.
torpid bolt
"a grammar mistakes"
we all do mistakes, proofreading is the only way i know to fix them
and it's hard, you must try as hard as possible to look at it as if you saw it for the first time
shut geyser
yeah i was tired
gilded valley
Reading out loud is a good way of catching them. Not sure if that holds true if its a second language
shut geyser
@mellow agate understood
torpid bolt
context changes can help, it's a well known effect that printing the letter will make you see things you didn't notice before
reading out loud is indeed a nice trick as well, and cheaper
shut geyser
i'm just dumb
i usually proof read with gramarly because i'm really bad with
these those
some s for third person
and to/for
raven jackal
I'm 13 and am wondering about a field i could go into when I'm older that involves python and pays good. what would you recommend?
gilded valley
My reccomendation would be not worrying about that yet. Program for fun if you enjoy it, beyond that focus on school
hushed kestrel
At your age, you don't need to worry about those things that much
Honestly you should be focused on making friends, getting better at being social, working on having good habits, and understand the things you like/not like and why
vapid jay
What are some good books and resources to learn python for absolute beginners?
gilded valley
!resources has some good links; Automate the Boring Stuff is the most common recommendation, and the MIT introduction to Computer Science is my personal recommendation. In general this question is more appropriate to #python-discussion than here, so if you have any questions, there is a better place
inner wrenBOT
vapid jay
How hard would it be to get a python developer job
obtuse thorn
seems like it depends on education in my area
Nasa, tesla, chevron and others are readily hiring for those with a masters
quite a few data analyst positions for B.S
fathom sail
Is 40$ an hour for coding with python good ?
hardy ferry
How much are you making a year? / How much can you make a year given your qualification (degree, years of experience)? If it is project based / non salaried you usually make a bit more. (Project based work often have some overhead which you aren't directly compensated for. Also job security isn't great that's why you usually get more.)
fathom sail
About 57k per year, it’s a part time job- I don’t have a job or a degree yet I’m still in school and it’s my first job.
I think 57k there is a chance I got my calculations wrong as the amount of hours per month isn’t fully determined yet
Between that and 43k I think
torpid bolt
it depends a lot on your location, but that doesn't seem bad to me, i earned less than that for a number of years i was fully employed as a python dev.
(in france)
torpid bolt
and even between states in the US, that's why i say it depends on place.
(also, in france gross is defined a bit differently from other countries, it's not all the employer pays, there can be a significant difference between the employee's gross and the employer's gross, so my current 67k€ gross translates to about 95k paid by the employer).
shut geyser
good belgium here with 50 % taxes
so everyone get cars
so everyone stays in carjam
arigato belgium
torpid bolt
about the same in france, and quite a few countries around there.
shut geyser
it's a bit more here, with up to 70% on "primes" and bonus
so there is no real incentives to go for higher pays
they mostly get "nature/naatur" advantages
torpid bolt
that's getting off topic, but i think it's good 🙂
shut geyser
They have a bigger middle class, but i've been refused job because i don't have the licence, so they can't afford to pay me
torpid bolt
(though i'd prefer if it wasn't just work that was taxed, but also wealth, and is seems belgium is kind of light on that)
vapid jay
What’s a good programming job to have if I plan to get an associates at community college then transfer to get a bachelors at suny for computer science? And I plan to learn python fully in almost halfway through my online udemy course
torpid bolt
one that interests you, either from a techincal point, or from a "business" point of view, if you like solving the problem you are working on, it's a lot more motivation.
gilded valley
Sounds to me like that associates/bachelors split is probably one of the best paths to a degree in the US. I don't think it really limits your options at all
vapid jay
What’s a good starting job to have after I graduate? One that would be a good stepping stone to get into a good paying one eventually
open shoal
what are the best jobs for cyber security? if you want to ask me what I want in my jobs etc (ping me)
mint gate
for the past 3ish years ive been teaching myself python and ive come to like programming enough to want to get a job in it at some point (im 16 now) and at the moment my parents are telling me i need to get a job which i get and i do agree i need one but i guess my question is it reasonable for someone like me (i would say im intermediate at python decent but could always learn more) to get a job or look into freelancing like will someone even take me serious because of my age and the fact im self taught with no like proper schooling for this or will i just go under the radar also how should i even go about looking for a job i know i should build a portfolio up with some projects ect but then where should i be looking for something to do should i lie about my age or tell the truth idk it just feels overwhelming sorta and im just not sure how to go about stuff like this and it dont help that my parents are basically counting down the days untill i "need" to get a job any advice would be appreciated
gilded valley
Lying about your age is definitely a bad idea. I've not heard good things about freelancing, but haven't tried it myself. Can I ask where you're based in the world?
mint gate
Anchorage Alaska
gilded valley
Do you intend to go to college/university when the time comes?
mint gate
well i plan on graduating highschool and depending on how im doing with money maybe idk i just dont wanna get stuck paying off a loan forever so i guess under the right circumstances yeah but most likely not
gilded valley
So, if you really don't want to go to college/get stuck with the debt, then freelancing might be worth investigating some more. My suggestion for the meantime would be to get a normal job at mcdonalds or wherever; if you do go to university that will be very useful when looking for graduate jobs/internships
open patio
working on open source projects can help you get noticed & gain you more experience
gilded valley
My personal recommendation would be that you work a normal part time job for high school, then go to community college for 2 years and finish your bachelors at a good university. This minimises debt whilst putting you on the same footing as someone who spent 3 years at a normal university. If you elect for that path, then just working part time is far more likely to lead to consistent income
Its worth noting that I don't actually live in the US or have experience with that, this is just what I've heard from smart people in the US. I'm a UK based student
Given that you've been learning for the last 3 years, no matter what, its going to be worth putting in some amount of spare time to build up a portfolio of cool stuff, or contributing to open source projects
mint gate
yeah im definitely gonna get a normal job for awhile but eventually i do want to get out of that and do this fulltime if i can the community college seems like a good idea and i will looking into contributing to open source things definitely thanks for the advice i guess this all just feels overwhelming i mean i know i can be good working or whatever i just dont want all this time of me learning this to be wasted because oh im self taught or oh i never went to school for it i know all this will probably not stop me from getting a job or whatever but it definitely gets in my head
gilded valley
It is definitely possible to break into the software industry without a degree, its just often very difficult
torpid bolt
Are there tech companies in the area? It could be worth it sending some emails, you have been learning for some time, so while you are junior, you might know enough to be worth interviewing and maybe taking in as junior, if the alternative is between that and flipping burgers, you won't cost them much, so some might be interested even if they'll have to teach you things. It's not like university gets you ready for a dev job anyway. I would say to try to explain why you are learning to program, what you like about it, and what you did up to now, and what you'd be interested in their companies, a cover letter of sort, considering your CV is certainly almost empty. If it doesn't give anything, well, plan B is still there, but imho it's worth trying.
well, not necessarily tech companies, even companies that have some tech branch, you want them to have at least a few experienced engineers.
i kind of assume that Alaska is not very attractive for devs/tech companies, so those that are here might have less numerous candidates than other places.
(but i'm not in the USA either, what do i know)
mint gate
maybe i will do that i think im just scared of getting rejected or someone just not taking me serious even though i know that regardless i would probably get rejected a few times i think i just need to stop thinking ahead and just go for it like you said nothing to bad could come from it also i have not much of a idea about the companies around where i live either but im sure theres someone thanks for your advice / responding and yeah my CV is basically empty i never did too well in school but teaching myself has gone well since im homeschooled now ive been able to dedicate a whole lot of time to programming alot more then i ever would in school (about 10-13 hours most days) but im not sure that would count on my CV
torpid bolt
if you build stuff with it, put them in personal projects, it's a good section to have on your cv, try to put a few of them on github, it's ok if it's not perfect, or even great code, nobody expects that of a self taught 16 years old.
and yeah, rejection is basically harmless, you could learn a lot even from people saying they don't need you, but giving you directions/networking.
i'm pretty sure my cover letters helped a lot when i was starting out.
past jasper
Hey all this got rejected from r/python but.... said I could post here. 😦 Seems like this may be a decent place here.
I have been in the industry for about 7 years now. Programming is my "2nd" career. I have spent the entire 7 years working for the same company, doing things of advancing levels and difficulties. I have even spent the majority of my 7 years in some sort of leadership role. I attribute this more to my previous life/work experience than to my technical skills. I can go get things done no question, it may be non traditional which has it's pluses and minuses. That often depends on who you talk to.
My current work environment uses a lot of proprietary software and frameworks that cause things to be done in non traditional ways. Probably why I am embraced so well here. There is no one around that really pushes me or suggests how things can be done better. All things I have learned about how "the rest of the world does things" is on my own time. Not a complaint there it is what it is and I think it is fair. I am incredibly thankful for where I am and the opportunities I have been given.
I would love to find a place that I can be around others who will press me and help me develop more technically and make me better rounded. I have admittedly been having a rough time finding that place. Personally, I think I am in this weird place of knowing to much but not enough if that makes any sense.
All that brings me to the place of wanting to find someone who will spend some time with me and help me level up my technical skills. I am ready to put in some effort and yes I would be willing to provide some compensation, though I have no idea what is fair.
Would love to hear your thoughts, ideas, comments, suggestions on who or how to go about something like this.
Thanks!
Sorry to drop that on conversation but I guess it is a chat channel. 🙂
torpid bolt
contributing to an open source project you like could definitely be a way to get that 🙂 and no compensation needed, you could use the money to pay for stickers and tshirts and other stuff for the project 😛
mint gate
thanks to everyone who responded you guys 100% cleared some stuff up in my head ill definitely take your advice and work on a cover letter and make some projects to show again thanks i did not even think anyone would respond i cant really ask anyone around me about this kind of stuff but this was more then helpful
vapid jay
All things I have learned about how "the rest of the world does things" is on my own time. Not a complaint there it is what it is and I think it is fair.
ha, this is one o the reasons I'm leaving my job
I don't want to learn like that, rather find a place that's implementing what everyone else is doing
and then maybe circle back and go somewhere smaller and bring ideas I've learned.
I'm only 3 YOE though
past jasper
Agree with that Brian. Just finding it rougher than I thought to get there. I have not looked hard but have been looking off and on. Finding it funny (not really so funny) that I can be esteemed as one of the best in a company with around 150 devs and then be told I am to junior and would need watched to much by another.
Really want to sort through the mess
I know I am not the best but dang I know I am not junior.
And thanks for that advice @torpid bolt I think I may just have to go the open source route
torpid bolt
junior after 7 years is definitely not normal, whatever your credentials, they might not make you an architect or lead dev, but junior is really weird after so much time imho.
past jasper
yeah that one was weird. I consider myself in the area of a mid level in technical skills. But man this imposter syndrome thing does flare up fierce when you get told things like that. (Only that once)
vapid jay
@past jasper domain knowledge is big
you arent junior if you have 7 years and part is leading though
needing to be ramped up on domain knowledge is differnt than needing supervision on how to work
normal stone
good evening, I am new to discord, anyone in this channel willing to give career advice ?
open patio
that's what this channel is for; ask and people who know a thing or two will respond when they can
normal stone
I got an engineering degree ( not it related) and then got an MBA from USC.. over time I did several courses ( Udacity, edx etc) and applied machine learning and data stuff on small projects. I am wondering which direction I should go. I will prob never be as good in data science as you, but I have a presumably much better understanding of it than the avg "business" person
radiant moon
hell I'd go for what sounds like fun, as long as it pays tolerably
normal stone
for me , tbh it is hard to get interviews ( maybe due to me being orginally a foreigner)
I am thinking about taking like 6-8 weeeks, building a portfolio and maybe that works
radiant moon
my current job took 30 applications to get one interview
normal stone
Also idk.. I do not fit the typical MBA profile, ( to me most MBA people are worse than useless and full of themselves)
vapid jay
@radiant moon as in you applied to the same place 30 times?
radiant moon
yes, 30 different positions
vapid jay
jesus
random trellis
Hey, have a question
Which language (Python/Java/C++) do i choose to main?
I want to work in Machine Learning and data analysis, so I have to start learning Python in-depth. I read Kaggle kernels (or notebooks by other users, whatever they’re called) and have participated in 2 competitions.
However, this semester at my university we have a compulsory Java course (which is very good, but hard) and all coding assignments in that course require a lot of work and are also compulsory. Furthermore, some homework are ICPC-style competitions and I usually use C++ as one of the faster languages to solve them. Which language do I main? Right now I’m thinking of doing a lot of Python and concentrating on it and doing all university stuff with Java (as ICPC is solvable with Java, too). Do you have any suggestions considering the future state of the job market or whatever? Maybe I should opt in for all-Java?
hardy ferry
@random trellis I can only speak for myself. I don't main a programming language. Once you've mastered a programming language the skills you learn are very transferable. It's just different syntax and libraries. I'm thrown between projects and they all use different stacks and programming language. What I have to be is being versatile and the ability to work myself into new environments, understanding the system and expand on it.
You can pick whatever language you prefer now. Life will tell what you end up actually doing. They all have promising futures. I'm doing contract/project based jobs and I don't really get to choose the language. I can't imagine myself developing and maintaining a product like some salaried people are doing. You'll be locked to the ecosystem and become heavily specialized which can be a good thing but also a bad one.
random trellis
@hardy ferry Thank you so much for your answer! I see your point, and it is a very reasonable one, but you write
Once you've mastered a programming language
and I certainly want to master one. I guess I go all-in for Java as there is just so much to learn. Furthermore, I've done some asking around and it seems like you don't actually need to know a lot of Python to get into ML, you need a lot of maths and related stuff, you only need procedural programming to train models etc.
hardy ferry
@vapid pilot if you apply for a job in another country you either need contacts, be really good at what you are and can back it up or be incredibly cheap to hire. Also there is the interviewing process which can complicate things. Many companies don't want to deal with foreign workers because in their office they are speaking their language and it'd be a huge pain to be forced to use english just for a few guys. If you really want to do it I would lower the expectation on income and would solely do it for the experience. All you can do is try. Just send out your applications.
I'm german and work for a german company. We hire Spain people because they are cheap but meetings can be frustrating since people sadly prefer speaking german.
That's something you have to bear in mind and it can become a problem. We can and do speak english but people tend to speak german more even in meetings where all the crucial information are
In the office people speak in german. They can be talking about problems. And you cannot jump into the conversation and contribute to it. You may know the solution to it or you may be having the same problem. It creates a lot of ineffeciencies. Professional software development is all about communication.
Idk how easy it is to get internship in foreign countries. "if you apply for a job in another country you either need contacts, be really good at what you are and can back it up or be incredibly cheap to hire" this applies mainly to full time workers
wintry imp
what about js developers
they are high in demand too
when i surf through job websites
fluid thicket
It might depend where you live
Where I do, they are looking for a lot of .NET and python devs
manic dock
@vapid pilot There may be 3 times more Java jobs but a third of that is already a lot. And as stated by @fluid thicket , it also depends where you live. There are not so many Python job offers where I live, yet I do have a Python focused job.
native mango
Hey guys quick question, is computer science better or software engineering?
subtle mulch
computer science
brave wraith
Curious anyone here have any experience in chemical engineering or process controls in manufacturing. I wonder if python is useful there at all
shut geyser
depends, i've seen people using python to treat spreadsheets and other stuff in some pharma prod lines
from what i've heard it's mostly dependant of the machine/process you do ?
brave wraith
Alrighty currently a student and I'm in a process control class where the first half of the class is data science through python. I find it really interesting but I'm not sure how useful it is
shut geyser
i've also seen it used to do some data science to optimises yields
some bacteria produce some stuff we need, you have multiple things such as temperature/ph/nutrients/turbidity ect...
try to predic the optimal settings at a certain point of time
vapid jay
is there a textbook on learning python that i can download
oh sorry i asked that some time ago.
in the correct channel.
gilded valley
!resources has lots of links, including stuff like Automate the Boring Stuff which has a free pdf version
inner wrenBOT
gilded valley
but no, this isn't really the right channel #python-discussion for that
shadow moss
Java is high demand language but it's generally boring corporate jobs
vivid dock
Can't say I've seen much Java, nor Python where I live. It's mostly frontend (js) or C# / C++
But other places have a higher demand for certain languages like python, rust, php etc. I'd familiarize yourself with your surroundings, unless you don't mind moving.
shadow moss
My company runs on Java
vivid dock
I find it funny, my university went full Java during my education. No jobs with java around. When i started teach programming at my university they moved to python, no python jobs around.
shadow moss
Where is here?
sterile vault
Seems perfectly logical. Same number of jobs, much more gradutates with Java/Python
torpid bolt
i guess it depends on places, but i get a lot of offers for python jobs, it does help that i have a lot of experience with it, but there is demand.
vivid dock
@shadow moss Bergen, Norway.
clear sleet
What kind of libraries do you need to know for python jobs?
torpid bolt
depends on the job.
python is used in many different sectors, web dev is a prevalent one, but there is also robotics, data science, devops, and a lot i can't think of right now, but that do exist, and all have different python tools and libraries.
clear sleet
I’m mainly interested in cyber security. What kind of jobs would use python for cyber security?
torpid bolt
i don't do that, but a couple around here do, and we have a #cybersecurity channel, which might be of interest, i'm pretty sure python is very much part of the toolbox for that, as it's everywhere and effective to quickly build and adapt utilities.
torpid bolt
one of my coworker who did some of that talked about a lib that allowed to define the property of your circuit with code and it produced the schemas and stuff, i don't remember the name or many details, but that exists, i don't know how much used these kind of things are though.
shadow moss
python is heavily used by security metasploit building
but most security jobs are not exploiting and such
it's ensuring compliance, it's IT equivalent of being meter maid
torpid bolt
it was like two years ago, don't hold your breath 😬
dusk belfry
guys what kind of jobs would you recommend to start off with when studying a computer science degree but don't fully know any programming language, I know the basics of a few, but can't say I'm proficient at any
vapid jay
@dusk belfry what do u wanna do?
dusk belfry
I'd like to become a programmer in the end, don't really have a preference on which field or language, but I know I don't really wanna go low level like assembly
vapid jay
you wouldnt anyway
unless you speciically looked for something like that
did you graduate?
dusk belfry
yeah I'm kinda just planning on getting a job somewhere as a programmer/web dev and seeing if I like it
from high school only
I'm a college freshman
is this the moment where people mostly look for generic jobs at places like Walmart?
quartz storm
learning front-end languages for web development like HTML and CSS is always a good way to start
quartz storm
That's good then
If you really focus and hone in on those I don't doubt that you could get a job doing that somewhere soon
dusk belfry
so focus on my js skills?
and building websites and such?
because js jobs seem to require you to know a good amount of frameworks before stepping in
and then there's school kinda getting in the way
quartz storm
I'd say, if you're looking for a job and to just try out programming in general, and since you already have experience with front-end languages, then I'd say focus on building serious and professional websites, maybe see if you can do one for your friend/coworker/family member or take on freelance jobs to get experience and to kinda get a feel for that side of software development
the skills you'll need to learn will become clear as you take on different projects
and maybe it could lead to you eventually taking up some backend and server-side languages and becoming a full-stack developer
dusk belfry
yeah it's just kind of a pain coming up with a good design that you actually wanna make, and I've been struggling on the CSS side a bit
but maybe so
quartz storm
try and find coding challenges online regarding the specific languages you want to improve in
or think about what you think would be really cool to make as a website even if it's way beyond your scope right now and try your best to work towards it
you're going to get the most useful experience and knowledge from trying to do something that seems extremely hard or challenging
so just think of things that would be cool that you don't necessarily know how to do yet, maybe ask your friends if they'd like a website designed for them and ask them what features they want, and try your best to accomplish those
dusk belfry
okay that sounds like a decent plan
I might try and make one for a friend, see how that goes (well, I'll have to learn it anyways so), but that will probably take weeks to months to get proficient at this, and I'm not really sure if I like that delay
quartz storm
well learning something as hard as coding, and learning it well, always takes time
of course it all depends on how much time you're willing to give to it day-to-day
dusk belfry
I guess not having too much work on the side will help me learn faster
quartz storm
the most important thing to keep in mind is that practicing and challenging yourself consistently is a lot better than, say, coding straight for like 6 hours one day and then taking a few days off
so long as you keep on challenging yourself consistently, you'll get where you want to be
and finding those challenges can be hard, so always try to be on the lookout for new things to try and do.
one of the most dangerous things you can do is only code what you know how to code
dusk belfry
yeah I might find some of those at school since I'm taking two programming classes this semester
quartz storm
yea that'd be good
honestly school is kind of a hit or miss when it comes to this sort of thing
coding today is literally everywhere, and there are a ton of good resources in books, online, and at school too
dusk belfry
but then that's 2 different languages at school so that won't help me much
quartz storm
well programming is programming for the most part
albeit html and css are a bit higher in abstraction and some of the fundamentals don't really translate too well, but the core is the same
any programming class you take is bound to help you in some way
but don't be afraid to say screw it to those classes if you find something better
quartz storm
do you?
dusk belfry
yes
quartz storm
how come?
quartz storm
yea, im in California
dusk belfry
they seem to really like that piece of paper that says you have some degree
quartz storm
honestly, with jobs, having a portfolio filled with projects of the same scale(or higher) as the job you're applying for is thousands of times more useful than a 4-6 year degree
obviously both are good
both will make you very competitive
dusk belfry
yeah but I have neither experience nor projects
so I need to go for the degree right now as a backup
quartz storm
well of course you dont
no one does when they first start out
that's why you start small and slowly over time build up
it's good that you joined this discord, because joining communities of other programmers will help you immensley too
not just in connections
but in ideas and projects
big projects are gonna require a lot of hands. when you're good enough you should try and join a real-world project to contribute to
that with your degree you're working towards will make you very competitive in the job marke
connections are also important
so don't be shy in these kinds of communities
often times it'll be those connections that'll get you the job you want
dusk belfry
yeah I've already joined a club filled with these kinds of people at college
trying to find out how it all is
dusk belfry
eh
quartz storm
stick with it man, and don't be afraid to put yourself out there with things like projects or people or anything
dusk belfry
I've started learning Java about 4-5 years ago now, but I haven't really used it consistently so I'm still a beginner
quartz storm
yea that's how I was too
dusk belfry
but where do you find the projects?
quartz storm
well when I say projects
I don't necessarily mean like
big game changing projects
or industry-shaking projects
a project can be whatever you want it to be
dusk belfry
so anything meaningful to me?
quartz storm
it can be making a website that crawls the web for movie info and sorts through it all and displays a bunch of movie descriptions to a user
yes exactly
dusk belfry
you think a project like that would be worth publishing?
quartz storm
the most important things to keep in mind are to do what you enjoy and to do what challenges you
well that depends
if your project brings value to other people then yes
and hell, maybe you could even get paid for it if you make good enough software
and you don't need to publish every project you do
right now, projects are for you to learn from
seeing as you're in the bginner stages, just make whatever the hell you want that sounds cool
ask friends for ideas too
when you're learning it's easy to think about doing projects with information you already know, but when you ask non-programmers what they think would be cool to make, they usually have a lot more interesting and challenging ideas simply because they have no real capacity for what would be hard or easy
so yea man just try and make as much as you can, try and learn and challenge yourself as much as you can, and try and get as connected as you can with other programmers
dusk belfry
yeah that's true
ok I'm just gonna put more time into learning a single language then 🙂
I think I'll stick to js for now just because that's the one I know the most
dusk belfry
how did you end up after you started learning?
how long did it take you to be good enough for a job?
quartz storm
ehh well it took me a couple of years for sure
I've been programming on and off since I was about 12
now I wasn't making anything crazy when I was 12, literally just screwing arond with variables and this weird thing called "Unity"
but when I really started focusing on it in High School, like dedicating atleast 4-6 hours to it every day, I saw my skills improve exponentially
but I never really wanted to do code full time, so I never really focused on getting like good
like good enough to be hired at silicon valley
i mostly jsut made games for myself and my friends
I made friends with a lot of people who got standard development jobs though
they all put in a lot of hours
after high school, most of my friends who became developers went on to study CS in college
got internships
you know
dusk belfry
so I'm guessing they also helped you get a job later on?
quartz storm
that sorta thing
oh no I don't work in software development
or anything really like that
dusk belfry
oh 🤔
quartz storm
much more of a kind "hobby"
dusk belfry
I thought this was going to be a CS success story lol
quartz storm
well for my friends it is
I mean if you're just looking for a "simple" developer job at some company
getting a degree
making a few good projects
and getting connected with your peers and professors
dusk belfry
I don't care what it is from the start
quartz storm
that's really all they did
dusk belfry
I think you can always move up once you get into the field
quartz storm
oh absolutely
and there always is the possibility for freelance/start-up work
making your own software/products
obviously a lot more risky
dusk belfry
yeah that doesn't sound very stable
dusk belfry
I was never able to get into game development tbh
too much math involved, I really didn't like it
quartz storm
lol that's what I love about it
dusk belfry
I enjoy some math, but trigonometry and all those calculations... ehh
oh I remember what was the worst
quartz storm
lol yea a lot of trigonometry
dusk belfry
making a player stand on a platform and not go through one in Scratch
quartz storm
fucking scratch
quartz storm
i can't stand scratch
dusk belfry
if they're touching the platform, go up
so now I'd have a player going up and falling at the same time
🙃 🔫
quartz storm
the thing i like about it a lot
dusk belfry
so yeah that's my preference lmao
quartz storm
is that there's a lot of shitty parts to it
the math can be very overwhelming at times
dusk belfry
yep
quartz storm
and it can be extremely tedious
but once you get it all right
good enough to run
and you've actually made somethings that's somewhat fun
it's a pretty cool feeling
dusk belfry
yeah but if you wanna make something really big, you don't really have the potential as a game developer since it requires so many roles - animation, modeling, testers - that you'd be 30 years older by the time you'd have anything that could blow up as much as Witcher
quartz storm
yea making anything big like that you'll need a studio
and a lot of time
it's insane how long actual games take to make
dusk belfry
but with programs I feel like it's actually doable to make a bigger one by one person if you wanted to
depending on the program of course
quartz storm
it all depends
if you have a true passion for it then absolutely
i mean look at Toby Fox
dude made one of the most influential games in history by himself
quartz storm
yea the thing with ideas is that coming up with them is a skill that you can learn and get better at
the more you try to come up with ideas and the more you actually fulfill them, you'll start to come up with more and more
starting out is obviously the hardest part
dusk belfry
you can kinda see what's popular what's not and go by that maybe
quartz storm
well I'm gonna head to bed man, I hope some of what I said is useful to you, and I really wish you the best of luck with programming. It's a super challening, super rewarding field, and I hope you find some true joy in whatever you end up working as
dusk belfry
yes it helped, thanks so much man, I'm gonna stick to it!
deep dove
I have 0 knowledge in programming lanuage. But i want to learn python so if anybody can tell me where to start and what are the things to focus on
vivid sparrow
I recommend starting with a tutorial. I hear "free code camp" and "automate the boring stuff" recommended often. I started with "Introduction to Computer Science and Programming Using Python" a free course from MIT on edx.org. I'm sure there are other good ones too.
(this is just my opinion)After that(or during), don't be afraid to reinvent the wheel, thinking of completely original projects takes time away from coding.
vapid jay
@dusk belfry sorry got distracted
if youre a freshman in college i would say the SINGLE BEST thing you can do for yourself is get internships
even if theyre not what you want to be doing, that work history through college will get you a job out of college
personal projects can help (especially if theyre amazing) but from what ive seen the vast majority are pretty simple stuff. nothing says "I'm employable" like a few internships and some solid references when you're 21/22 fresh out of school and looking for a FT position
prisma slate
Do you have any advice for internships?
gilded valley
What do you mean by advice for internships?
prisma slate
Like if you land one what to do and what not to do
gilded valley
Well, the company isn't necessarily looking for someone who knows everything coming in, they're looking for someone who will be a good employee in the future. That means that learning new things whilst on the internship, putting in effort, and engaging with the company are all important
basically, being friendly and putting in work are the best things you can do
Like, you might end up having to write Java even if you go in not knowing Java. They won't expect you to make something massive during your time, they'll care more that you engage and that you are capable of picking it up
gilded valley
I think that also depends on the company. That was my experience at a big non-tech corporation, I think its a bit more focused on skills at tech corporations, but the idea is still true
prisma slate
Ah ok and thank again I’m trying to find a more tech heavy internship
But for now I’ll just keep working at Starbucks until I’m done with high school
gilded valley
Most big corps will have tech internships; not just facebook, amazon, ms et al
prisma slate
Ya that’s true when I graduate I’ll see what internships I can find
gilded valley
Good luck for then. And work experience in something like Starbucks will be very helpful for when you're looking for the internship
dusk belfry
@vapid jay okay I'll continue with that then, what kind of internships are you thinking about when I can't really do the programming ones right now?
vapid jay
your college will help you with that
just look around the area, or at home, or use your network
my mom's friend got me my first internship
at a tech company
gilded valley
In general colleges don't help you with internships at all really
vapid jay
the career center can help you find internships
gilded valley
All they will do is point you to an internal job board and tell you to look online
gilded valley
It doesn't, but the easiest path to finding an internship without any connections is to just apply everywhere online that you can find
humble elm
i guess this is kind of related to careers? when talking to big companies about sponsoring, how do you go about that?
humble elm
Also they asked me what kind of amount I was thinking of.. what can I respectfully ask for?
vapid jay
@humble elm there are ways around the amount question
check r/cscareerquestions or similar
vapid jay
IT or Computer Science. I need some opinion. Thank you!
@vapid jay you should be in Computer Science
Can you please elaborate why?
I just want opinions from other people. So you can help me decide my path.
mint citrus
what country?
also check what courses they both take and what your end goal actually is
vapid jay
They get payed more but I can't really tell which is easiest, plus I can't really help much sense all this is coming from a 12 year old
Does country matter? I’m migrating anyways.
mint citrus
country does matter
vapid jay
I’m from the Philippines.
vapid jay
In overall which is better?
mint citrus
to be tech support and manage servers and stuff? or to be a developer programming things?
neither is better, neither is worse
theres not golden path that says this is the best way
vapid jay
Hmmm. I would like to program, create something out of nothing something like that.
mint citrus
what do you expect when you finish? that should tell you which to decide
vapid jay
Invent.
mint citrus
then prob go to CS imo
and do a lot of stuff on your own
because CS will not teach you how to make your own stuff
or build from scratch
thats up to you. they give you the fundamentals of CS
vapid jay
How about IT? What can I get from that?
mint citrus
IT is more general i think
not so much making stuff, maybe architecture and learning about how shit works together
vapid jay
can any of you too give me some tips for coding? I'm just starting coding.
Hmmm. Probably Comp Sci is for me then.
Thanks @mint citrus
vapid jay
thx
mint citrus
look at the courses that are given and decide from that as well
vapid jay
@mint citrus
vivid sparrow
Let's say there is listed in job advert: "REST API, mySQL, AWS, degree+3yr exp, builds unit tests, integration tests and deployment scripts." Should entry level dev apply if they haven't done any of that? It's titled "python developer". Do I need "internship"? I don't think I can get one as self-taught. Should I look only for "junior developer"?
torpid bolt
well, 3 year exp is kind of incompatible with "entry level" i think.
it doesn't cost anything to apply, but don't be surprised if they expect someone with more than what you can offer.
vivid sparrow
Thanks!
What if they mistook me for a good developer, and then where surprised about my slowness when i start. Has this ever happened? Because I don't write "junior" on my CV.
torpid bolt
interviews are made for that
you don't need to write junior, you write your experience, and they decide if that's too junior for them or not.
it's a common thing to self diminish when you are not confident, but what you want is not to do the judging for them, give them facts to judge on, and let them do it.
also it's normal to be a bit slow at the start, it depends a lot on the company, and the team/project sizes, but the first few weeks/months (in the worst case), can feel pretty innefficient, as you are learning the tools they use, the people to talk to, the processes, the code base and the business they are in.
vivid sparrow
Thanks for tips tshirtman. I appreciate it.
torpid bolt
communication is your major tool to improve the situtation in all cases, let them know when you are in doubt, when you think something could be done some way, or when you are stuck.
vivid sparrow
Ok.
torpid bolt
also, about confidence, everything you know how to do is easy, because you know how to do it, so you often think it's easy for everybody. and what you don't know about seems hard, but most of the time you just didn't try yet, so there is an imbalance between how you judge what you did and what others did.
vivid sparrow
I never thought about it that way, but ur right!
wet flint
If I am still in Highschool, is it realistic to be able to get a Python job? Or should I focus on building more projects so when I do apply I have more to show?
gilded valley
I wouldn't be too hopeful about getting a normal part time job writing code. But its possible that you could find summer work at a local IT company if you email around, and if you have some basic projects to show a degree of competency
wet flint
Ok I assumed so, thank you Charlie :)
gilded valley
I'm also not US based, so I might be wrong, and there's probably no harm in emailing/looking around to see if anyone is willing to take you on
sterile vault
Also, check your local labor laws. I think highschool is <18?
open patio
you can work at 15, but they can pay you under minimum wage
16 and up they have to pay at least minimum wage
shadow moss
At 14 and 15 in US, you are very hour limited and paperwork prone so few employers want to deal with that.
lucid niche
@wet flint Definitely start with personal projects that are fun to you, no matter how minimal. When I started with python, I made calculators for analyzing circuits, as it helped me transition from the language i learned initially
If you're taking programming classes in high school, and you're able to get in good relation with a professor by showing progress with personal projects and interest in learning more, you could possibly get a very good recommendation letter that could land you a small position after highschool (if your professor has connections with smaller companies in your local area)
And definitely, do what Charlie recommended; there's no hurt in emailing local IT companies once you have projects under your belt, but a recommendation letter might come in good use.
wet flint
Ok thank you
vapid jay
Yeah there has to be some specific circumstances in the US to work the under the age of 16. In fact, there is limited work you can do until you are 18 legally in terms of operating machinery of any kind. Not sure how much or often that applies to IT but either way, its a mess that only certain places bother with doing it.
Its often relevant because the types of places that will hire a very young person are the types of places who also have work they are not legally allowed to do there.
So they have a very specific job that they do. I find that its usually something cashier related.
hallow flare
Yo, just wrapped up a (grueling) programming job search and I made a video about my new strategy if you're interested: https://youtu.be/ZQ8O1bskWNo
halcyon plank