career-advice

[high coyote]

We are light years from general consciousness in machines, we don't even know what that really means. Sure, people are researching it, but what they are doing is likely quite far from the popular science presentation. Of course, that's true for everything, it's not to say you might not find something you enjoy doing relating to it.

[opaque silo]

Yh i hear you, I definitely understand we are very very far away from such a thing, Ill certainly look into what specific areas of research would be available before i make any decisions

[high coyote]

Maybe it's something you can ask about if enquiring about a masters

[shadow moss]

Pete are you American?

[opaque silo]

UK

[shadow moss]

Then my worry doesn’t come into play

Which is money

[opaque silo]

Yh loool Id be able to get pretty much the whole degree funded

[gilded valley]

Finding funding for a PHD in what you seem to want seems pretty unlikely to me

And you don't necessarily need a masters to do a PHD

[opaque silo]

Oh, ive been getting that gist, what do you suppose is the most related field of research right now then ?

& I wasnt aware of that, I thought it was a necessity

[high coyote]

Oh, not at all, thought it may help

[gilded valley]

I'm not sure - funding for PHDs works in a few different ways that I don't fully understand. But I think one way is that labs/unis post openings they have, it might be worth trying to find something like that

AFAIK the two main ways it works are you either take an idea to a lab/funding-people and they say yay/nay, or a lab has openings and you apply

I think generally if you want to go straight to a PHD after undergrad, you'd want to have gotten a first

And a masters is the more typical path, especially as its a field different to your degree

[opaque silo]

hmm ok, so I suppose if I was to go for the phd i may need the masters

especially as you said its very different course to my undergrad

which sucks because I believe I could learn all the necessary info on my own

[shadow moss]

Yea, PhD is going to disagree

[gilded valley]

Well, my understanding is quite often the subject material of a PHD is pretty different to undergrad anyway

Here's a PHD that doesn't require either a Masters or a CS degree https://www.jobs.ac.uk/job/BYJ742/phd-studentship-flood-resilient-bridge-modelling-and-design

[opaque silo]

Yah dont think my undergrad is good enough tho, literally got rounded up to a 2:1

[gilded valley]

Yeah, that makes it pretty unlikely

[opaque silo]

Not to say I couldnt have done better, and wont with a masters, just that i had no interest in the topic

The only thing thats bugging me is from what ive heard a masters, especially comp sci isn't at all necessary if I do decide to stick with web dev

[gilded valley]

If you decide to stick to web dev, you have a lot of options, some of which don't even involve self-studying

Places like JPMorgan hire people into tech roles from a wide range of degree backgrounds

and then will train them on the job

Other places will take you once you have a basic working knowledge of the area

[opaque silo]

ohh okay, i didnt expect that, I had a look for on job training before but couldnt find much, thanks

I guess it just boils down to whether i can find a related research field interesting enough to go through with a masters

[gilded valley]

https://careers.jpmorgan.com/global/en/students/programs/tech-connect here is the JPMorgan specific program

I believe other companies have similar things

[shadow moss]

If you decide to go onto real world programming, don’t get masters or PhD someone else isn’t paying for

[gilded valley]

UCL (and I assume others) have "conversion" masters to get into the Computer Science world

although personally I don't think its worth it

[shadow moss]

And economics degree will be fine. Companies like well rounded employees

[opaque silo]

yhh @shadow moss i gathered as much, a lot of people reccomended cs50 harvard and similar stuff

[shadow moss]

Our DBA has history degree

[opaque silo]

@gilded valley That is infact the one i was considering, if I do decide to go down the research route, any reason why you dont think its worth it

[shadow moss]

And our front end UI designer has communication BA

And I have 60 credit hours

[gilded valley]

So I'm not in your position, but I feel like with a few months of hard work, you could get to the point where you're applying for the same grad positions as someone who has done that program

but with 1-year less debt

But I'm not entirely sure thats true

its just the feeling I get

I know someone who did the program, and they definitely don't not-reccomend it

[opaque silo]

yeahh for sure I could do without it if web dev is the route, especially as there is a lot of irrelevant info such as hardware, but as we kinda figured dont you think that would be the best option for a research based career down the line

[gilded valley]

If you want a research careeer down the line

then I think I'd opt for a more maths based masters

not sure on the specific one

I think the strategy of aim half for research and half for industry isn't going to be at all easy. I'd guess you'd be better off commiting to a masters/PHD, or comitting to moving into industry

Although I am just an undergrad, so I could very much be wrong

[opaque silo]

yhh thats why im tryna make the decision now, so i can go all in on one route without a regret

[gilded valley]

When did you graduate and what are you currently doing for work?

this is just curiousity

you don't have to answer ofc

[opaque silo]

Nah dw, I graduated in summer round July

and in the meantime Ive been doing retail, and as corny as it sounds just trying to find my passion and define the vision for the future

[gilded valley]

If I was you, I'd apply for grad roles (in CS if you're sure you don't mind it) with your current skills

then even if you decide the other way

you just don't sign the contract

[opaque silo]

would i even get considered without a solid portfolio yet ? because thats what ive been working towards 9 to 5

[gilded valley]

So the two companies that I have experience with (One of them is JPMorgan and I've already linked you that program), you would have a fairly solid chance yeah

[opaque silo]

Yh thats a good idea, ill definitely apply to that and push my econ and finance strengths

will look for other opportunites as well while continuing to learn and apply for masters too before its too late, and just take a bit longer to weigh it up and research

[gilded valley]

https://www.gradcracker.com/hub/176/vodafone/graduate-job/31158/technology-stream-vodafone-discover-graduate-programme heres a random posting from Gradcracker that is open to people from non-technical degrees

[opaque silo]

thanks my man, appreciate it

[shadow moss]

Pete, if you decide to go industry route, you should be fine

you will have a bit of battle with economics degree but play it up

and don't focus on Web Dev, look into Data Analytics and type

I assume Econ require a ton of math, esp lying math 😉

[gilded valley]

If you have decide to apply to grad jobs, have a look at gradcracker. Also, a lot of places are closing soon, and it might be worth just applying to those ASAP to get into the flow of it. But also not treating it as committing yourself

[opaque silo]

@shadow moss Yh that makes sense, but data analytics really isnt my thing to be honest, even though i know SQL knowledge and that sort of stuff is the quickest route into the industry

[shadow moss]

you don't like it or don't know it?

[opaque silo]

Both, but from uni data research and yt videos I know it isnt my thing

@gilded valley will defo look at the site, didnt even know it existed, been confined to linkedin and indeed recently

[shadow moss]

How did you not hate your major? I assuming you used Keynesian models

[opaque silo]

i did hate it, lots of regression models and analytics, but i was at the start of my final year when i realised programming and computers are what Im really interested in

[shadow moss]

just wondering

yea, people will be interested in you for Data stuff

[opaque silo]

at that point i just stuck it out, big life lesson though, will never do anything for the sole purpose of money again

[shadow moss]

since Economics major tend be good at modeling math

[opaque silo]

yhh I will be sure to highlight that aspect of the degree in my applications, even though ive pretty much forgotten it all loool

[shadow moss]

but web devs don't generally do that

[opaque silo]

yhh i know i know, im pretty sure within the year i could be junior dev ready though, especiallly with the free time i have to learn

[shadow moss]

but I get dislike of models, I did one class in Economics and disliked it

[opaque silo]

Yah, it was a very dumb decision on my part, especially since I hadnt even done it in sixth form

But I was blinded by the dollar signs

[gilded valley]

Can I ask what university you studied at for undergrad?

or would you prefer not to say?

[opaque silo]

uni of bath

[shadow moss]

going slightly OT, I do thank class for one thing, It's made me Austrian

[opaque silo]

so pretty impressive uni for applications

[gilded valley]

Yeah, although, I'm at a trash tier uni, and it hasn't really hurt me for internships/grad-jobs

I'm curious how much of an impact the quality of a uni has on stuff like that

[opaque silo]

I guess it totally depends on the interviewer

A lot of other things would come into play in my opinion, like industry experience and side projects

[shadow moss]

Charlie, are you in UK/American?

[gilded valley]

There are definitely some companies that will just dismiss me outright because of my rubbish uni

UK

[shadow moss]

I've heard UK is bigger on university then US can be

[opaque silo]

i have a friend who did mech eng and got an ecommerce internship solely off his own entrepreurial side hustles

what uni is it if you dont mind me asking

[gilded valley]

Bournemouth

Rubbish place, rubbish university

[opaque silo]

i heard its pretty fun and erm whats the word... liberal loool

[gilded valley]

I think the nightlife is good, but because I don't drink I don't really care about that. And thats the only thing its got going for it

[opaque silo]

hey as long as your study what you love thats the main thing right

[opal perch]

bournemouth uni is a shit uni mate

@gilded valley feelsbad to be you mate, shit uni

but like pete said, as long as you love what you do and you learn something, thats the most important part

[distant phoenix]

I'm currently taking a finance degree in uni, I'm hopping to work within fintech when i graduate and looking to learn SQL and Python which is what the industry uses the most. Which would you guys recommend learning first between SQL and Python?

[opaque silo]

@opal perch need to put him down that bad, it ain’t all that bad 😂

[gilded valley]

He's at the same uni as me

and also knows its shite

[celest bronze]

@distant phoenix hey there, I'd recommend first looking at python mby, SQL is a bit odd to kick off with

[torpid bolt]

I agree, python is more generaly useful, sql is really good to learn after to query databases efficiently (whever or not you use an orm, understanding sql itself is really helpful)

[mystic summit]

I'm 100% convinced I'm not qualified to do the job I'm doing

how do I let my team leader know without coming off as lazy or not like.. driven?

it's not that I don't want to work, it's just that it's way above my "skill level" if that makes sense

they've thrown me in the shark's tank and idk how to get out

[indigo sleet]

That's called impostor syndrome and it's super duper common

Remember, they wouldn't have put you there if they didn't think you could handle it :>

[mystic summit]

I mean I know I can't, I can't automate a whole bank.

They put me there because there aren't enough people

my tutor too said they made a mistake by sending someone who has been studying linux for 4 months to do a job like that

[mystic summit]

maybe I'm being negative idk

[vapid jay]

your tutor sounds rude

[mystic summit]

no he sounds based

Like I can't do it, I just stare at the screen and go "how the fuck am I supposed to do this"?

Infrastructure work is hella hard!

[vapid jay]

you start from something and just keep going

no point looking at the bigger picture, only to be intimidated by it

[mystic summit]

I can't do anything. My colleague did all the code and I can't take over because I didn't write it

I have to port something I didn't to to an infrastructure I don't know

and the dude who did it says it cannot be done

oof sorry for the rant

[zenith ferry]

Do it to prove them wrong? Sorry you feel that way 😞 is the company large? Perhaps you can find someone who did something similar that could help you get started? When I get overwhelmed at work I like to make lists of what needs to be done then I pick one thing on the list and try to solve just that portion of it or see if I can find someone who can help with just that one portion.

[mystic summit]

I'll try

I think I would be better suited for dev instead of infrastructure work

[mystic summit]

at least my tutor says so

[vapid jay]

Im pretty new to python, I completed a few courses about the basics and im pretty comfortable with it, I really need to get a career started but idk where to move on now, any advice?

[novel umbra]

@vapid jay in a city? Going to the next meetup and asking around sometimes works.

[mystic summit]

have a couple of projects on your github

and be on the lookout for companies that offer training. Not a whole lot of them, but that's how I got my job as a DevOps peep

[earnest beacon]

Just take it step by step i guess

[thorny adder]

@mystic summit hey Frey would love to learn more about dev ops, if you want to have a chat about it, I would love to, what is your experience with k8 amd Docker?

[vapid jay]

hello sir.. do you have time to talk about our lord and savior gke?

[shadow moss]

I would but it's on Google

Greyspurv, it's highly used and frustrating as hell

but there really isn't alternative

[vapid jay]

there are other alternative frameworks built on top of k8 to make working with it easier

[royal lynx]

Hi, everybody. I Will take a test for a Master on Computer Science and I need to study Algorithms and Data Structures. Any PDF recomendation?

[shadow moss]

Tron, which is my complaint about k8s, everyone layers sooo much on top of it, it becomes this soggy Subway Sandwich that makes me wonder if it's really that much better

We can take it to dev-ops channel if you want

[vapid jay]

what is the alternative?

[shadow moss]

there isn't, thus the issue

[vapid jay]

well you know.. it's from google..

so partly broken anyway

aint nobody got time to clean up all that technical debt.. that's why there's so many frameworks that try to make due by building on top of it

[mystic summit]

@thorny adder none, really. I'm more of an infrastructure peep, I work with ansible and automation

some of my colleagues work with OCP with uses (I believe) docker

but I'm too new to do any heavy lifting. And I'm not too sure I want to go down this route

[mystic summit]

no yeah I'm 100% sure I don't want to go down this route. I don't like infrastructure work that much

I tried going the sysadmin route because I hated coding as it was in school, maybe that was my #1 mistake

[thorny adder]

@mystic summit hey thanks for the answer yeah it seems that Dev Ops are really only for a minority, I have conpemplating it, but I wish to learn bare bones for deployment and to stay in codeing at leat for now. If you do not have passion for it I think it would be really dry lol I find it pretty exciting overall tbh

[mystic summit]

eh it's just... it's not my thing I guess

granted I've not been doing it for much

(sorry for shitty grammar)

maybe I'll like it once I get more confident and comfortable, idk

I'll reserve judgment when and if I switch to dev

[thorny adder]

Do not Worry English is also not my first language so. Sure do what you feel like, was just curious thanks

[mystic summit]

💜

[left escarp]

Is computing science same as computer science?

[icy berry]

never heard about computing science

looks like some use that term where they should have used computer science

[left escarp]

https://www.ru.nl/english/education/bachelors/computing-science/

Okay

[torpid bolt]

the internet existed over 20 years ago, i know, i was there 😬

social media didn't exist in name, but forums/boards, mailing lists, and instant chat rooms (irc/icq/aim/msn) could totally be considered social media imho

[gilded valley]

I think in general its quite difficult to get a sponsorship to move abroad

I'd love to work in Canada/NZ/Europe when I graduate - but it doesn't seem very feasible

[torpid bolt]

for a junior certainly

[sudden lagoon]

@torpid bolt Already lived near London and moved to Scotland. It's not a decision I'm making for the money. It's more about the quality of life. The UK in general is a very depressing country.

[torpid bolt]

right

[gilded valley]

Scotland does have quite a few big companies there, so I assume a lot of oppurtunities

[mild zenith]

I assure you the depression is spread pretty thoroughly across the world

[sudden lagoon]

But yes, I do understand your point

[gilded valley]

Amazon is in Edinburgh

[torpid bolt]

for tech or just for storage/delivery?

[gilded valley]

Speaking to people who have lived both in and out of the UK, they generally agree that the UK is pretty depressing

and Amazon are there for tech

[torpid bolt]

ok, interesting

[gilded valley]

I'd assume its not as big as London, but I don't think its small

[mild zenith]

And again, I'm in no way meaning to discourage you, @sudden lagoon, but it's just one of those "sounds too good to be true" kind of things

[gilded valley]

I think as long as you're motivated and willing to put in hard work, you're going to be able to find a job. Even if it is too good to be true, if you put in the effort yourself, you can probably make it true for yourself

[sudden lagoon]

I think so too. I'm done being discouraged. I've committed to truly becoming a great coder this time around and as long as I put in the effort and keep applying, I am bound to find somebody willing to employ me. Thank you guys for always helping me

Totally brotha, I understand what you mean @mild zenith

[sterile vault]

Well, there is probably a reason why GB is writers' favorite place for dystopias.

[mystic summit]

don't become a great coder

become the bestest coder

[gilded valley]

why GB is writers' favorite place for dystopias. thats just because all the best English-language writers are British

[sterile vault]

Well, that makes sense

[shut geyser]

only French i can think of is this one : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Zone_du_Dehors

dunno if it's translated

And Barjavel

not really careers material anyway

[mystic summit]

ok serious question

A colleague of mine suggested, as I've told before, that I would be better suited to coding. Problem is, I don't really know any language that's used at my company/in my team

What do I do? I can't self teach, because I don't have time. I get home usually at 6PM or 7 PM and I have to go to bed at 10. I eat, have driving school and generally I'm exhausted once I get home.

[shadow moss]

what language does your team use?

[mystic summit]

Go, Java, Python

I know python a bit but nowhere near competent level

and it's not used as much as java and gl

go

[shut geyser]

Depends what you mean by competent

Your competent might be very higher than other people expectation

[mystic summit]

I have to look at tutorials constantly

I never really finished a project, I don't have that experience under my belt sadly

so I need a bunch of stuff before I can feel ready

[shut geyser]

Building condidence

[mystic summit]

Also yah, python idk how much is used

go and java are the only languages I've seen so far being used

(I know ansible is basically python but still, that doesn't count)

[mystic summit]

I don't think my team leader would let me have a few months to learn the langs and build stuff

They already gave me a lot of time to learn linux, I don't think I'll have more

[torpid bolt]

for all you know you might be their most competent python dev 😛

[shadow moss]

Why did they hire you?

[mystic summit]

idk, I went to a course they where offering to people fresh out of highschool

they hired anyone who participated, Some went to service desk, others went to do DevOps, networking, development

I did an additional course on linux, I asked to join and they said ok, the instructor apparently told some good stuff about me so I'm on the team.

The problem is, I started in a position where experience is required, and I have none. I'm also more inclined to dev rather than doing infrastructure work

[torpid bolt]

seems they are fine with taking the time for people to learn and become more productive

[mystic summit]

yeah but idk, going to the team leader and be like "I know you gave me 4 months of training as a sysadmin, I'd like to dev now, please give me 4 more" sounds like a sure way to get fired

well maybe not fired but passing as that person thay doesn't know what they want to do

(which Is not wrong, idk what I want to do)

[torpid bolt]

i don't know, it's good for a dev to have sysadmin skills, and i assume you are paid pretty low if they took you and gave you a full formation

[mystic summit]

1200/month

jumping to 1400 in a year and a half

[torpid bolt]

depends on where you are, but that seems pretty low to me

i guess it's $

[mystic summit]

1200 €/mo

not much, but for a peep fresh out of HS with no expenses it's a lot

[torpid bolt]

in french it would be like minimum wages, programmers are usually paid more than that

[mystic summit]

yeah

I just, idk what I want to do

[torpid bolt]

yes, it's nice for someone out of high school, but if you are productive, it's a very good bargain for them

[mystic summit]

and I'd like to try something else but idk how to ask

[torpid bolt]

but ask people around for advice, and feel free to experiment

if people around you suggest you might like dev, ask about it to management, they might be supportive

that does seem to be an environment that takes chances on people

[mystic summit]

that's what I would do if I didn't have assignments

[torpid bolt]

assignments can be moved around, adjusted, redefined

[mystic summit]

I'm stuck at working for a client, doing something kinda difficult and not knowing how to approach my team leader about it

[torpid bolt]

don't assume whatever work you are on is both essential and only doable by you

[mystic summit]

it is tho

the guy I'm subbing for is going to another client

it's me and another colleague, who basically has to do much of the heavy lifting

[torpid bolt]

it seems to be a big enough structure to be able to find replacement, its not like you are moving out by friday

[mystic summit]

if I was 100% confident in my dev skills I'd ask to be noved as soon as they can find a replacement

idk, my team is small

I'll talk to the team leader and see what he can arrange

like even a few days a week would be good, to get some experience

[torpid bolt]

talking about it will give you a better idea about what's possible anyway, if you don't know you'll keep at your position indefinitely, if you talk, maybe you'll get to experiment other things soonish, once they figure how to adjust to that

[mystic summit]

[mystic summit]

I need to find the right words to do so

[torpid bolt]

start with something like "i've been wondering about something" 🙂

[mystic summit]

🤔 that might work

[topaz sail]

I'm stuck at working for a client, doing something kinda difficult and not knowing how to approach my team leader about it
@mystic summit communication with your team leader is critical. If you don't know how to approach them about something that is blocking you, your exact statement should be "This is blocking me, do you have time to talk about it?" When the issue is resolved and you're no longer blocked, it's not unreasonable to ask for feedback on how better to approach your team leader.

[mystic summit]

I just fear they'll think I'm a good for nothing and kick me out of the team

it's like, I was graced by being allowed to work in the team and here I go saying I'm not capable of doing so

(I was stuck in a service desk position for two weeks before someone put a word in for me and blam, here I am)

[mild zenith]

@mystic summit Communication is incredibly important. If you feel like you're struggling or you need clarification, I think your team would rather you speak up than sit on your thumbs.

And if they kick you out for asking for additional clarification, then that'd be a blessing in disguise, I think

[mystic summit]

I'm not sitting on my thumbs, I'm trying my hardest to do the job, so there's that

But yeah, I shall ask, and hope it all goes smoothly

[vapid jay]

what aspects should one consider before joining an automotive company?

considering Tesla has the market cornered in EV's, is it actually advisable to join any other company.. I'm not familiar with the industry and am curious

[obsidian acorn]

Actually, yes, it is

if you have one such opportunity, regardless of the company

[shadow moss]

Tesla isn’t going to destroy major automotive companies

Ford and like are not going anywhere

[slender coral]

@mystic summit , really you only need to learn from your work , and give your self 30 min for coding and u will be fine and while eating watch video about some kind of lunguage that u want learn , normally the basic of any lungauge to learn like python etc it will take 7 to 10 hours ,

@mystic summit in work go ask one of your worker about what there doing like if he's sitting while coding ask him what are you doing , and after tell you about what u can search it online to gain knowledge

and after a while u will have alot of knowladge , but most importantly know what u want to do as carer becuse your ging to do it for the rest of your life .

[mystic summit]

@slender coral Hm? I know programming, I studied it in school. I don't have time to do projects and build familiarity and fluency in my languages of choice

I know I can learn Go in a week, and java in slightly more (because it's a bigger language)

But I can't do projects to really get the hang of things

As a colleague says: languages are spoken, not studied

[faint plover]

So this is kind of driving me crazy. I learned Python for a while then I switched to starting C# because I saw that there was way more demand for C# jobs (I am mostly just trying to develop a marketable skill). Most people tend to back this up. You can add to this the whole "Python is not a programming language; it is a scripting language." which is debatable. So I found this article that seem to be saying the opposite. https://www.zdnet.com/article/go-and-python-are-the-programming-languages-developers-most-want-to-learn/

[mild zenith]

It's more that Python is an incredibly good tool in the belt

[mystic summit]

Go and python are simple and easy to learn

[mild zenith]

It won't be your primary language, but you'll be in a much better position if you can utilize it, even if you're primarily doing something else

[mystic summit]

At my work we have software written in go

[faint plover]

I feel like it is hard for me as a budding developer to gauge how I should best spend my time. I do know that many people say "Just pick one and go with it." which maybe I should do but it seems like a better bet to invest more time in something with more demand like Java, JS, or C#.

[mystic summit]

Also python is crazy good as a shell substitute

[faint plover]

OK.

@mild zenith What are the things I should Google to know about Python?

like, what are the categories that you would say "know how to do this?"

@mystic summit Can you go into more detail how Python can be a shell substitute? What concrete examples do you have for that, if any?

[mystic summit]

@faint plover Like hm..say you want to move a bunch of files. You can use python, instead of going to the shell

Idk how to explain really

[mild zenith]

Hard to really say, as I'm not personally part of the industry, just a hobbyist. But honestly just having a general knowledge of what's out there, knowing how to understand Python documentation and how to apply various libraries can help

[mystic summit]

Just, if there's a way to do it in python, and it will be easier

[mild zenith]

Couldn't hurt to look into Fluent Python as well to find different and powerful ways to integrate it or use it to the fullest

[faint plover]

@mystic summit No, I get that.

moving files.

[mystic summit]

Also I'm biased, I hate bash

[faint plover]

@mild zenith The book Fluent Python?

[mystic summit]

but I'm a linux sysadmin so..

[faint plover]

I am at a place right now where I am this weird sort of novice level. So I will get really bored with learning basic commands. Like, there are a lot of tutorials where I am like "Yeah I get this basic concept let me fast forward until . . . OK instead of using a colon like in Python you use parentheses." But I am not quite good enough to get into serious projects yet.

[mystic summit]

What job?

[faint plover]

@mystic summit I am enrolling into a CS program so that I can go into IT, database management/analysis, or software dev.

Which is addmittedly too broad, but I still like all those options, more so DB and SD.

[mystic summit]

DB is very fun

I liked messing with queries during school

I don't remember squat now tho

[faint plover]

@mystic summit Also, so you are a Linux sys admin? So you manage all the servers for a company? What is that like? Do you like your job? Are the hours and pay good?

[mystic summit]

hours and pay are standard, we have a collective contract so that helps. @faint plover

I work in automation, so I automate whatever they ask. Now I'm working on the Data center automation, which involves a bunch of stuff, the biggest being porting existing ansible playbooks to a new environment

[faint plover]

OK. So if I am thinking about db or software dev (probably more than IT/sys admin stuff) then do you have an opinion what what to do towards that?

like, I am taking a math course to enter an online CS program.

[mystic summit]

idk, it's the same path I'm trying to take

[faint plover]

but I also have time to invest and it is really difficult for me to know how to best spend my time.

Can I ask about your pay and exp>

[mystic summit]

I'm trying to switch to devving and being a hybrid, which I'd love to do

[faint plover]

Being a hybrid

?

[mystic summit]

I finished HS in Aug, I've been at the company for 4 months (5 ish actually)

@faint plover yeah devving and knowing sysadmin stuff

A dev who knows sysadmin stuff is a good dev

[faint plover]

WHAT?!?!

[mystic summit]

I also earn 1200 €/mo, before taxes. It's standard for the sector

[faint plover]

How are you a sys admin right out of HIGH SCHOOL!

[mystic summit]

I didn't say I'm a good one. Where I am it's clearly too hard for my skills.

I'm still learning, it's not easy nor enjoyable

I'd probably like it if I had the experience to do it, but as it stands it's just frustrating

[slender coral]

@mystic summit then you only need its to find a way time management .

to manage your time .

[torpid bolt]

@faint plover a lot of devs use python as their primary language, there is demand for that, i can't say if more than c#, it probably depends a lot on the sector/companies, but python is quite big these days.

[slender coral]

@torpid bolt i agree with .

[torpid bolt]

my next job, and the 3 jobs i had before, i am here to do python.

[faint plover]

Dang I feel like a freaking loser. This kid is straight out of high school doing what I am trying to do after six years out of college.

(I taught for six years)

[torpid bolt]

sometime other techs, JS or bash, or other things, on the side, but my main marketable skill is python.

opportunities are a bit randomly distributed, and seeing them is not always easy, confidence, etc plays a part

it seems @mystic summit got a good oportunity with a company that is ready to take very junior people and teach them, but it's not a very common thing, sadly

[slender coral]

@faint plover why would you say you are loser .

[faint plover]

I am only half joking.

[torpid bolt]

a lot of companies do prefer to get experienced people, that seems less risky.

[faint plover]

But I have been spending a while learning programming and I am still not in ap lace to become a gosh darn sys admin.

This kid is dunking on me.

[torpid bolt]

it's more expensive, though, and some are ready to pay that price, some are not, but there is a lot of demand for experienced devs

it's been a long time i didn't really look for work, it's more jobs that are looking for me, so i can't really say about what's good to do now to find jobs, but being able to show any level of ability with a language is a good start, building a project, being able to explain how you built it, what techno you used, what challenges you got, and how you faced them, is going to get you a long way.

I do have a degree or two (CS Engineer, master degree), it does help finding work, and getting a better pay, it does give theorical fundations that are sometime useful at work, but they are not the practical skills that companies are really looking for, most developers never implement a sort algorithm after getting out of school, you use the one(s) provided by your language or libraries, because they are well tested, efficient, and will almost always be generic enough to fit your use case.

[mystic summit]

@slender coral I don't have time to manage, at all

[torpid bolt]

nobody ever asks you to write a parser/compiler for a language, or even to formalize your database scheme (although it's definitely a good idea to do so)

so while i do encourage you to learn math and CS theorical skills, i wouldn't say to focus just on that, learning technologies by building stuff with them is going to better demonstrate your fitness to a job imho.

[mystic summit]

@faint plover yeah I was lucky, really lucky. The company is small too (800 peeps more or less)

they're ok with taking people from fuck knows where and training them

Hell I was in service desk for 2 weeks before the team yoinked me

[torpid bolt]

there is a message in the pinned posts of this channel, from someone who taught himself into being a software dev in a year and a half, from scratch, and got his first job at the end, that's quite impressive, they did learn a lot of tech in that time, but that's a good way to do it, even if it could take more time to a lot of people.

[mystic summit]

as with anything, luck is a factor

You have to get lucky and get a company that will take chances, and a team that's deranged enough to go along with it

[torpid bolt]

@mystic summit that's not what i call a small company, i've worked in a few less than 10 people companies, and the one i just left is around 60 people (growing fast though), but that's beside the point.

most companies are not amazon or ms or google, although these behemoths employ a lot of people, most people work for smaller companies

[mystic summit]

@torpid bolt it's small for a system integrator with multiple branches across the world

[torpid bolt]

right

[mystic summit]

I mean I can casually talk with the CEO whilst grabbing a coffee if I so choose

I got hired by actually talking to the CEO and explaining my situation, so like, I wouldn't have been able to do that at a bigger company

but that's besides the point. I got lucky, and so did many others

it's just a matter of finding your own luck, rather than waiting for it to come

get involved, be curious, but most importantly have fun. No use in involving yourself with a company if you're not having a good time.

[vapid jay]

That could make sense if you were working on high pressure

[faint plover]

I had a big opportunity just fall through for me like that.

Showed up at a database software company

PERFECT for me involves DB and SD.

They called me in saidthey would offer a job just becuase I wanted to learn.

part time lfexible hours could add to my current part time time.

Then after that in person meeting

ghosted.

[vapid jay]

Lol

[faint plover]

Sent two follow Emails.

[vapid jay]

Do u have any other mails instead of google one?

I just asking btw (just continue)

[mystic summit]

😔 there are shitbags like that

really, better without a job than with those kind of people. Good companies at least give a proper response, no matter if good or bad

that's just unprofessional

[torpid bolt]

@faint plover how was your impression during/after the meeting? did you feel like you had a good contact with them? that's very weird that they don't even give feedback.

@vapid jay i have my own server, that i set up sometime ago, it works, but i didn't switch everything to it yet, after years of using gmail, i'm first making sure it's reliable enough 😛

(but that's better to discuss in offtopic)

[vapid jay]

Lol

[faint plover]

I don't.

have another email

[torpid bolt]

@faint plover the only understandable reason i would see is if you did/said something really insensitive or nonsensical during the interview, that would really put your ethics or professionalism in question, and they wouldn't want to talk with you at all, but short of that, they should give you feedback about what went wrong even if they don't want to continue the process. But yeah, not all companies are nice to people like that.

[faint plover]

@torpid bolt Well just keep in mind that I was going in claiming very little experience but an eagerness to learn. Maybe they had expectations that I knew more than I did. It seemed to be a good feeling in the meeting. ONe guy talked alot more than the other. I wonder if the silent guy told the other guy "Dude, we will NOT be offering that guy a job."

[torpid bolt]

it's a good sign that they were two, it's normal to have a main interviewer, and an observer one, so they can discuss their impression after and avoid too much bias (though it's always hard to completely avoid it).

it doesn't mean the other one was against you, their role maybe just was not to talk a lot in this meeting.

[torpid bolt]

also it's more about "i'm seeing/not seeing, this person in this company, working with us, doing the specific things we need them to do" than "offering a job", they are not doing this out of pity or good will, they are trying to find a fit for a need and an environment.

[faint plover]

Right.

I think that I had the x factor in the interview, so to speak. I was big on "I will do what you want." So when they are like "What exactly are you looking for?" I am like, "I'm down for whatever. Software side, database side, whatever."

Those are my follow ups.

emails

obviously

[torpid bolt]

hm, these were fine messages, though maybe a bit overconfident "looking forward to" could make me think you assumed this was a done deal, and the "whatever capacity" was just details to solve, but i probably wouldn't ghost you over that.

and for that answer during the interview, i guess it wasn't bad either, though i could be worried about giving you work that actually doesn't interest you that much, because you don't know enough (or express enough) about what you want (i've been on this side too, not being able to give a good answer to a manager about what you'd prefer to work on can bother them a bit).

but again, unless i had way too many candidates to manage for the position, and just no time to follow up on everybody, i don't think that's proper not to answer you.

[gilded valley]

I think if companies are in the position where they're getting so many applicants that they can't reply directly to all, they should have some system in place to send automated rejection emails. Just applying for internships its very disheartening getting ghosted for companies, and I imagine it would be much worse getting ghosted for full time jobs

[opal perch]

I completely agree, I also think salaries on job adverts should be shown, doesn't have to be exact, can be a range, but its silly doing an application for an internship and finding out they'll pay you 15k

[faint plover]

Wondering if I should send a follow up or what.

Like, a third follow up lol

[opal perch]

No harm, if they've ghosted you it won't make a difference to being rejected or not. But it might let them know you're sitll alive

[feral lark]

Is it ghosting if they never respond in the first place? If that kind of communication is important and they aren't meeting that need for you, move on to the next?

Take the Tinder approach, keep on swiping!

[mystic summit]

If they ghosted imho they shouldn't be chased

it's their loss, not yours. You can tell a lot about a company by the way they treat recruits

[vapid jay]

a recruiter not contacting you doesnt say much about the overall company, tbh

[shut meteor]

Persistence is key in job hunting. Bug them if you don't hear anything.

If you really want the job.

[sterile vault]

Btw, what is the "median" time of HR making a decision?

[shut meteor]

Decision for what ?

[sterile vault]

Of giving you a job offer after interview

[shut meteor]

It just depends. Lots of factors. I would say a week or two

[sterile vault]

Basically, a difference between "they are still thinking" and "they are ghosting you"

[shut meteor]

They could be interviewing other people too.

[sterile vault]

Thank! Obviously, bigger companies probably have longer "processing" times.

[shut meteor]

I used to interview for positions. One of several who would do the technical interview....

[sterile vault]

Which positions, btw? Junior, middle, senior?

[shut meteor]

We would have two meetings. One right after the applicant had finished for the day. Then another after all had finished. That 2nd meeting could take a week or so. After all had interviewed. Then we make recommendations and it's into managements hands. But they would usually go with our recommendation. It was junior to middle.

If you haven't heard anything it's not bad news. But they should at least tell you yay or nay.

If you are still on school it's a little different. They will be looking at other qualities besides technical knowledge since you don't have much experience.

I recommend getting a masters degree too if it's "free". As well as doing coop/internship while in school. Those gigs are easy to get and most likely will hand opportunity to work for them after graduation.

[sterile vault]

Thanks, interesting info.

[neon moat]

Don't get hung up over one interview. You need to be constantly applying and learn from each interview. If you feel you are not technically up to scratch and having a hard time answer technical questions then you need to take a step back and improve your skills.

If you are confident you are correctly answering technical questions and still not getting callbacks then you may need to reflect on how you are coming across during interviews.

Its not always about be a rockstar developer. A lot of the time companies want someone that will fit in well with the team

[vapid jay]

@shut meteor hi, u know this better can u suggest how to get an internship for data science stream

[opal perch]

Are you in bachelors? or post grad?

and what country you in

@vapid jay

[vapid jay]

Im in polytechnic clg n from India

[opal perch]

No clue about the india scene, getting in contact with anyone you know, apply everywhere, not just 5 or 6 applications, do 30, then you'll probably get one

[vapid jay]

This country only recognizes dudes holding masters, derZ no scope for me here!

[opal perch]

is zeus also in india?

[vapid jay]

Idk we is Zeus from, I had applied for positions in google n facebook I sent them git link to my projects

Yet derZ no reply

[opal perch]

Something I noticed with data science, sometimes blogs are better than just a github. It shows more of the analytical/reporting skills.

Do you want to stay in india or you happy to go anywhere?

If you're happy to go anywhere, just look at internships in other countries, don't just look at the big companies, look at every company

[vapid jay]

I want to happily move from here, Dude where can I write blogs?

[opal perch]

I think american express in the UK has still internship positions open

[vapid jay]

@opal perch How to apply for that?

U hav link?

[opal perch]

I wont do this for every company, here's the link

https://www.ratemyplacement.co.uk/jobs/18613/american-express/2020-technology-summer-internship-programme-burgess-hill

Otherwise, just look around mate

You probably won't get an internship without looking, companies wont approach even if you have a solid linkedin/git, I doubt they would for internships

[vapid jay]

Thanks for sending !

Summer internship will start from June ryt?

[opal perch]

probably

[vapid jay]

@opal perch hey do u think I can get help of any referrals?

[opal perch]

huh? go ask one of your professors

[shut geyser]

"he's pretty alright" some anonymous dude on internet

[opal perch]

"hey this dude spells ryt instead of 'right', hire him"

[formal obsidian]

Lmao

Props for trying 🤷‍♂️

[forest ivy]

Hi guys I know it's off topic. I want to learn google cloud platform. I do not know where to start. If any one please give some guidance

[opal perch]

probably not in careers

[mild zenith]

Yeah would pretty much only fit in one of the off-topic channels

[forest ivy]

Sorry guys

[mild zenith]

And short of just getting you to the tutorials on their page, I don't know what we could really offer

It's fine, no worries

[shadow moss]

BlueSky, career advice don't, unless you have already done AWS/azure

Azure/AWS Jobs are much more plentiful and with GCP, lack of Serverless stuff means a ton of people are doing VM/Kubes

which applies ot all 3 clouds

[shut meteor]

@vapid jay no. I'm US based.

[last eagle]

Hello there! I'm curious, is there any way you can freelance with Python ? Especially no client involved? Like maybe making plugins?

[gilded valley]

You can. From what I've seen on here, people in Europe tend not to recommend it, but a few people from the US seem to recommend it as a viable path

Pretty sure you generally need a client though - often through a platform like upwork

[last eagle]

I see, ok, thanks!

[dull vapor]

Ok guys, I need honest opinion. In university my professors were like: Oh yeah boy, memorize these system.print.out from java

But the more I code alone and with people the more I have expression that no-one is super codah like in films, but rather everyone is confused and lost, and what defines "good programmer" is skill of finding relevant syntax parts in head/internet and yeeting them into something usable with problem solving skills + CS/algorithms/maths knowledge. Does my IQ lowered due to late night thoughts or is there some major problem with education system and creation of programming process image in schools?

[pearl swallow]

I will say it's definitely not like in movies, but it's not as dumbed down as you're describing either. I don't think the education system for it is perfect, but part of it is a byproduct of how versatile the field is. As an entry level software engineer, the types of work you get into can vary so much, there's no way to prepare for everything. You can't learn every framework, package, and tool because there's simply too much. However, as you gain experience, you start to hone in and get better at certain things you get constantly exposed to. Maybe you focus on web frameworks and eventually you get to the point of working in them so much that you really do know them almost inside out. That is a long process and it's not something you can expect out of the gate, and it's not something anyone should expect out of the gate.

So because there's too much to know, everyone sort of starts by scrambling for info in a sea of knowledge, but eventually you learn to stay afloat on their own little boat and then slowly build that into a nice ship over time

[flint summit]

Not sure if this is an appropriate question for this specific channel, but here goes:

I have an offer from a company that I interviewed with albeit it being a contract position with hourly salary of $52/hr. Not too great but decent enough. I will be a big data analyst that mostly uses Python and SQL.

However, the company uses a third-party recruiting agency for their hiring. I believe they probably get compensated if I sign the offer. They are giving me 24 hours to reply to their offer, which I think is ridiculously short. Normally I will just accept, but now I am also interviewing with another company, which gives 4 remote days a week. And I just had my final round of interview with them today and I want to hear back from them and then see if I have multiple options rather than just the option with the first company.

Do you think it's reasonable for me to ask the first company for a couple of more days to consider? What do you think? Any advice would be appreciated!

BTW, the first job I interviewed for focuses mostly on data analysis, the second Python development and AWS. Both are what I want to learn.

But not sure which one has a more promising future.

[pearl swallow]

24 hours is stupid short, ask for more. If they want you they can hold off for a couple more days.

[flint summit]

OK. That's what I thought. I think it's their tactic to try to make me sign the offer.

I don't want to sign only to reneg on the deal once I get a better offer.

Can anyone illuminate me about the pros and cons of remote working? I've never done it before so I'm not sure what to think.

[pearl swallow]

Well you can work from anywhere but at the expense of missing out on the ease of communication that comes with sharing an office. Feels even worse when others are local but you're remote so you have to put in that extra effort to stay in top of things in terms of collaboration.

Not sure what else to say, it depends on the terms of the remote work

[flint summit]

@pearl swallow I can't possibly put it better myself. Thanks for that.

I was trying to word it but couldn't do it. Yep, missing out the communication and atmosphere of collaboration is big. But all teams have 4 days of remote.

They only go to the office on Thursday. All meetings are done on Zoom.

@pearl swallow BTW, I may have committed a cardinal sin. As the first company was rushing me, I told the company that I have a pending offer.

"For the purpose of honesty, I just received an offer from another company. But I do like your company better for all aspects: team, brand and learning opportunities etc. Therefore this is the job I want. It's just that my timeline is a little shorter now."

Is this beyond remedy or did I just burn all my chances with this company?

[pearl swallow]

That's not really a sin. It's common to negotiate offers based on others you may have on the table. My current company asked me if I had any other offers so they could match/beat it when I was interviewing with them.

[flint summit]

OK. Good then. Load off my mind.

Is the contract-to-hire mode a big red flag?

[pearl swallow]

In my opinion, the first job is the one where you take what you get. There isn't really much room for negotiation because you're just like every other graduate for the most part. Second job and onwards, the playing field is a lot more level. You don't just lean into any company and act excited towards them, if you're good you can and should talk like you know your worth.

[dry sapphire]

^ agreed

[pearl swallow]

Contract-to-hire?

[dry sapphire]

I'm on my third job now

things are a lot better

[flint summit]

This would be my second job.

Yes. Contract to hire.

[dry sapphire]

although TBH even my first job was really a bit better than I thought I could have expected

[flint summit]

This is the first time that I come across something like this.

@dry sapphire Was it about law or coding?

[dry sapphire]

by the way, is "hourly salary" common?

coding

data scientist

[flint summit]

I thought you learned coding for a year

[pearl swallow]

For a contractor it's hourly

Full-time is generally salary

[flint summit]

Which means I don't get paid for vacations or sick leaves

[pearl swallow]

are you an independent contractor or going through a contracting firm

[flint summit]

@dry sapphire How long did it take you to learn enough to be a data scientist? I'm following the Python Data Science Handbook. Is it good enough?

@pearl swallow Very good question, I'm just going to mention that.

The latter

So I will actually be an employee of the contracting firm

Or staffing firm. I was a little confounded by the business model.

[pearl swallow]

you should still have vacation days then

[flint summit]

Nope. They made it clear there is none.

[pearl swallow]

[flint summit]

Which is why I'm not too crazy about it.

[dry sapphire]

a few months I guess

the bootcamp

no, I have a year+ of experience

I went bootcamp -> data scientist -> ML engineer -> instructor (where I am now)

isn't $50 quite a lot...?

like if you work 40 hours a week that's like 8500 a month or so?

[pearl swallow]

for a contractor it's about right

not sure if that's before or after the cut to the contractor firm though

[vapid jay]

who's trying to find a job

[flint summit]

Me!

Sorry, cooking for the wife.

[vapid jay]

@flint summit what's the location? it's hard to move up as a contractor if it's not with a reputed firm

[flint summit]

DC metro area.

Oh what the hell, it's FINRA

At Rockville.

[vapid jay]

so you're working at a contractor for FINRA?

[flint summit]

Title is Quantitative data analyst (?)

Not yet. The contractor is rushing me to sign the contractor.

[vapid jay]

that's not bad.. plenty of upside in banking.. algorithmic trading, if you play your cards right

read the fine line..

[flint summit]

@dry sapphire Amazing path.

[vapid jay]

related to pay, overtime, how you can take an exit.. expect to work a minimum of two years

no, I meant your prospective path.. not what you will be doing with FINRA now

I'm aware

[flint summit]

I see. Thanks.

Two years hmm

Not sure.

The 2nd company is Discovery

The media company. But it will be a direct hire instead of a contractor.

[vapid jay]

Discovery? like.. the channel?

[flint summit]

Yes...precisely

[vapid jay]

what's the role like

like.. function

[flint summit]

Called Development Engineer

But the functions seem all over the place

[vapid jay]

yeah no clue about that.. maybe talk to an SWE to understand the prospects

[flint summit]

They only use python for the code base.

In my interview, I wasn't tested for any DSA questions.

They do and will use a lot of AWS

[vapid jay]

but from my experience, when they mention random things on a JD, it means they have no clue to lead either

[flint summit]

Is it against the rules of this channel to post the JD?

[vapid jay]

well, not sure how it'll be helpful to you to post the JD

I suggest you find someone working on a related role, and consult with them 1:1 for advice

to make your decision

[flint summit]

I think I just did today during the interview.

They are working on putting content on the cloud.

And they have some interesting projects in mind.

Now I'm at a loss as to which one to choose. Both team seem like smart people. The team lead at FINRA is really cool.

There is no way I can come to a decision tomorrow. I will just tell them that.

[vapid jay]

they must be considering other people as well?

[flint summit]

@vapid jay That's likely.

Due to personal reason, I can't leave DC area. For banking jobs, wait, there is a Capital One. How did I forget that. NVM.

I was contemplating on what I can learn from both opportunities. FINRA stresses SQL, SQL and SQL. A little Python and ML.

Discovery stresses Python, ML and AWS.

Which sets can be more useful for future career growth?

[vapid jay]

really up to you man

[flint summit]

What a tough decision. Let me sleep on it.

[vapid jay]

I'm not from a developer background.. more core engineering, so I was comfortable with ML and math, and focused more on learning dev skills..

if you're from a dev background, years of experience wherever you want to end up in terms of industry will support you along, regardless of where you apply ML

[flint summit]

Definitely not. Engineering student. First job was data analyst.

At my first job, Python is cheating. Excel shall be the way. I insisted on using Python. And eventually just couldn't take it.

Want to find a place where I can really be exposed to and learn these skills. Both seem alright. I will contemplate it of course.

[vapid jay]

the cons to working as a contractor are related to job security, pay..

and the minimum of 2 years you need to put in, as well as needing to prove yourself when you get out to land your next job

[flint summit]

Thanks for the input. Didn't know these. Why the min of 2 years tho?

Job security is def a concern.

[vapid jay]

highly likely that you won't find the next full time position after the first year.. because most recruiters won't give your resume a look through.. plus pay

they might offer lower compensation because they see themselves as doing you a favor of extending a permanent position as you transition from a contract role

[flint summit]

Sorry for being slow. But why as to "because most recruiters won't give your resume a look through"? Do I have to reveal on my resume that I'm a contractor?

[vapid jay]

yeah, thats expected if the company you work for primarily offers contracting services

[flint summit]

So in reality, a permanent position is indeed a level higher than contractor.

[vapid jay]

yeah.. it's all perception

[flint summit]

I see. Then people probably do know...The interview told me that FINRA has 40-60% contractors

[vapid jay]

recruiters don't know where their ass is.. like, they don't understand your work or care, to them keywords on JD need to be on your resume, everything else is perception

[flint summit]

Haha.

[vapid jay]

a lot of big companies have contractors.. FB, Apple, Google.. that's how they sustain benefits to full time employees

[flint summit]

...

[vapid jay]

welcome to the real world.. i wish I didn't know all these things.. and there's even less I can disclose..

frankly, would love to focus on improving my skills than picking up these little tit bits that help with navigating a career path, but it's also important

[flint summit]

^

It truly is. Soft skills can't be neglected apparently.

I wasn't asked any leetcode style question in my interview, mostly behavior questions.

The only Python question they asked is to find the index of the max value from list a.

[vapid jay]

lol

[flint summit]

If there are multiple max values, give the smallest

I was shocked. So I wrote a.index(max(a))

And was told that it's wrong...

[vapid jay]

yeah.. that's the max

[flint summit]

Exactly

But interviewer insisted that it wouldn't work if there are multiple max.

So I did it again with loop. I know arguments won't do me any good.

I was grinding Leetcode questions beforehand...

[vapid jay]

order it in desc, counter, pick one

[flint summit]

@vapid jay Wouldn't order it change the index?

[vapid jay]

then find index by item

[flint summit]

I feel like an idiot. Elaborate please? Do you mean like i for i,v in enumerate(l) if v == max(l)?

Or am I not getting it at all?

[vapid jay]

let me write it down

[flint summit]

Thanks!

[vapid jay]

from collections import Counter
l = [1,2,3,4,4,5,5]
l = sorted(l, reverse=True)
n = Counter(l)
max([k for k in n if n[k]==1])

that way you get the max

actually.. dont even need to sort I guess

then find index by value

(going out; slow to respond)

[flint summit]

Thanks! Neat code.

Gee, I don't think they will like it if you do it this way...

Very nice use of Counter

My bad. Give the smallest index

The smallest index of max value

Precisely

[vapid jay]

If there are multiple max values give the minimum? I thought that meant the one that wasn't repeated.. my bad

Let's see... So return max if count of max ==1 else return min

[flint summit]

My fault. For not expressing correctly

@vapid jay was getting the unique max, which is good. Actually I would've felt better if they ask me that.

At least a little more challenging.

NVM, you edited the code. My bad.

What is the big O of a.index(max(a))

n**2?

So every time the index is run, max will be run to go across the whole list

Ah...so I was wrong

Why though?

I thought it's n*n

So it's nx2 instead of nxn?

Ah darn it.

I am very new to big o

I thought at each element, the index function will run through the whole list to see which position that element is at.

And during indexfunction going through the list, at each point, max will go through the list once.

Apparently that's wrong. So index and max running through the lists are parallel processes? I'm not sure if I'm using the correct terminology

Holy shit, I was just gonna ask

That's so smart. Why tho?

My bad. Lemme see which one is open

[vapid jay]

What's better, AA or AS degree for computer science ?

[pulsar drum]

AA means Associate of Art, AS is Associate of Science. Computer science would only apply to the latter because it's a science

That is how I understand it

I have never seen an AA for CS

[shadow moss]

same

unless you are looking at AAS which Associate of Applied Science

[harsh patio]

What would you guys say is the liklihood of getting a job if you’re invited for an on-site?

[vapid jay]

depends how many stages you went through and what's coming up

[harsh patio]

Went through a behavioral Hr, a tech screen, and a one hour tech interview (leetcode-ish and concept discussions) with three people. I have an interview with like 9 different people tomorrow

HR, talent acquisition. Software developers, CTO

[vapid jay]

seems excessive..

what's the onsite for

if you're done with the coding interviews already.. then the outlook is positive

sometimes coding interviews are on-site.. which is why I'm asking

if that's not the case, they will likely want to impress you with the work environment and discuss compensation

(sometimes they lowball you if they see you're overly impressed with the environment)

[harsh patio]

The way HR phrased it which makes it sound positive is that they didn’t want to hire someone until they saw how they were in person and with various team members

But like, I’m still gonna get grilled on the tech more

I have about an hour and a half tomorrow with 5 different tech people

So 30 minute chunks with various combinations

[mint citrus]

you arent hired until you are hired

HR will not let you know anything

[harsh patio]

Well, yeah I’m aware

Just getting at what was phrased to me

Which was that they wanted me in person with multiple people

[mint citrus]

all it means, they see you as a possible candidate

do your best and they might choose you.

tech interview doesnt mean that much from my experience. people will mostly worry about if they can work with you.

obv you have to be able to do what they hire you for

[harsh patio]

Company seems more involved in one particular part of the job compared to the others. So seems one part of that is what I’m gonna be grilled on most. Less leetcode and more theoretics and domain knowledge

[dry sapphire]

does anyone have experience doing postgrad studies in Germany? is the GRE useful there?

[marsh wind]

@dry sapphire when i was applying for PhDs they never asked for

[dry sapphire]

let's say my undergraduate results were super bad and I wanted to use the GRE to shore them up

would that make sense?

[marsh wind]

@dry sapphire when you say postgrad, do you mean PhD or master?

[dry sapphire]

master

[marsh wind]

@dry sapphire i think you should check with each Uni/program rules. Afaik they don't require GRE

But Idk if they will accept it

And even if they do if they will take it into consideration

would that make sense?
I mean for me it makes perfect sense... But these things can be very bureaucratical. I think you should try and ask on reddit maybe, there are probably more people who'd know for sure

[dry sapphire]

hm, makes sense

thanks!

[shut geyser]

Normally if you apply they tell you what kind of grade they require no ?

[lucid niche]

Lots of programs don't specifically have a GPA requirement here in the US i believe, because of the number of suicides at MIT during a previous semester, colleges here now take a more "wholistic approach"

but im not sure how the CS departments look at GPA and GRE, its different in physics than it is in engineering, and im sure its different in CS as well.

I'd suggest finding the profiles of masters/PhD students on the website of the lab they work at, usually accessible under the PI's page on the university website, that'll give you some information on who these people were before their masters program

That's at least what me and the people i work with have done to try to figure more about the applicants to MIT. I would also 100% go to reddit and Quora to find answers to some specific questions you may have.

And as far as a low GPA goes, it definitely depends how low we're talking, lots of student researchers don't have the best GPA, and having a very good track record with the professor you're doing undergrad research with can land you a good recommendation letter that can get you into really good REU's, which will get you into really good grad programs.

[marsh wind]

@lucid niche yeah but gm was interested in Master, and usually there are 3 things they more or less equally care about: marks, recommendations and motivation letters

also on PI's page you'd rather see PhDs profiles but not masters

[vapid jay]

Hey guys, is there any website where i can learn entry level data science in python for free?

Is this the correct channel for this

[lucid niche]

@marsh wind Yea you’re right. In lots of cases that I’ve heard, people who have horrible gpas their year 1 and 2 can get very good grades year 3 and 4, and accompanied with a good GRE will make people more open to forgetting about your shit gpa year 1&2

[marsh valley]

The discussion channel would be more appropriate @vapid jay

Try to refrain from cross posting tho, it personally irritates the hell out of me, idk if it’s a rule here or not

[marsh wind]

yes that makes sense

[marsh valley]

#data-science-and-ml

[marsh wind]

cause it means you progressed over years in Uni

and put in work

[vapid jay]

Well since im here anyway, Does anyone know how much a entry level data scientist would make in a country with a cheap labour market

[lucid niche]

Many stories of that here in engineering. Lots of people are lost their 1st and 2nd year until they find a subject or project they love

[marsh wind]

yeah, for sure. Idk tho if it is case for @dry sapphire ?

[lucid niche]

@dry sapphire what’s your cumulative GPA?

[marsh wind]

also it depends I guess whether you try fo scholarship

or just get into the program

[lucid niche]

Definitely.

[neon moat]

@vapid jay it can vary massively, best to look up jobs local to your area/city and gauge it yourself or look on websites like glassdoor

[dry sapphire]

@lucid niche it’s not me TBH, but my friend who specifically wants to get into a certain German university for master’s but doesn’t have much practical experience/very good grades...which is why I was wondering if they would benefit by doing GRE

I too do want to do a master’s at a good university in the US though, so independently I am looking at taking GRE

my bachelor’s has no GPA though

it’s just a thing...it’s one of two courses that doesn’t

I always get confused about how to report it in academic info TBH

(also my friend wants to get into neuroscience)

[lucid niche]

Not sure how CS departments feel about GRE's.

I'd assume that neuroscience programs have very strict views on who is capable

And, masters programs really only focus on experience through internships, research, personal projects, and what recommendation letters you have. GPA and GRE scores weeds out a good amount of people who don't come close to those who are accepted, but a high GPA and GRE doesn't mean you have a high chance of getting into a grad program.

the reason why a lot of this is trivial is because while schools like MIT don't say you have to have a gpa of "X", they get so many applicants who have 3.75+ GPAs, so it creates a benchmark. this benchmark will change depending on the university, this goes for GRE as well in a lot of cases

If your friend wants to get into a good program with low grades, bad GRE, and no experience, I'm not sure what he can do. If he's done with his bachelors, he can do a post-bach. If i were him, I would get in contact with a staff member within the admissions program that can speak to him.

Also, take everything I say with a grain of salt. My experiences and those experiences of my colleagues are all unique to us, so take my experiences as just another unique scenario.

[dry sapphire]

has experience, just not like 6 years or something, and GRE not yet, but assuming it’ll be good

was just in a bad place back then

[lucid niche]

I'm very new within this community, and I have an engineering background, so what I say might not be true for you in all cases.

[dry sapphire]

but yup I have faith (I was a law graduate and bootcamp attendee...now I’m here)

[lucid niche]

You 100% don't need years upon years of experience for a masters program. And yea, personal stuff happens, that's how my 1st 2 years of uni were like, but with the right professor to do research with giving me guidance, I was able to get into a computational research group and now I just have to stay on track.

[dry sapphire]

is about 1-2 years okay, you think?

I have also read that academic ability is prized over industrial performance

e.g. university references are weighted more than ones from past supervisors @ work

[dapper anchor]

Is 37k a low salary for someone who manages network gear, vcenter, AD, and patching?

I have my ccna and a Bachelors too

Also get no health benefits

[radiant moon]

@dapper anchor it sounds low to me, but cost-of-living probably affects it a lot

CCNA? I'd hope you would do better than that, at least in a big city

[vapid jay]

CCNA can fetch a nice opportunity that will lead to better things. A lot of it depends on the individual.

IT doesn't gatekeep on degrees or certificates if you can perform the essential duties.

[radiant moon]

the people who sell CCNA training hope you're wrong 🙂

[vapid jay]

CCNA training is for people that can't setup their own development/testing environments.

[radiant moon]

is that the most basic networking certificate?

[vapid jay]

Cisco Certified Network Associate with no requirements except for passing the 250$(ish) test, next is the CCNP (I believe)

[radiant moon]

I used to work for INE, a training company

they charged a LOT for their courses

[vapid jay]

2-3k?

[radiant moon]

istr it being a bunch more

but then they had a lot of different courses, and probably different prices.

I'm more likely to have remembered the shockingly-expensive ones 🙂

[vapid jay]

what kind of ballpark figure are we talking?

[radiant moon]

$10,000 comes to mind

oh, "ballpark figure"? "Babe Ruth"

slaps thigh

I'm here all week. Try the veal.

[vapid jay]

10k for a course is a joke. If you shop around most of it's probably available for free and actually requires you to learn the trade in the process like getting Miyagi'd

[radiant moon]

shrug

I personally wouldn't do that, but then I'm not a network guy

[vapid jay]

Wouldn't do the 10k course or build your own testing environment?

[radiant moon]

wouldn't pay money for a technical certification.

[gusty elbow]

@radiant moon How would you reccomend starting out with first projects

Like in python

[radiant moon]

find something simple enough to be fun, and not intimidating; but complex enough to be interesting, and then solve it.

in my case it turned out to be wordy things: anagrams, simple encryption, stuff like that

[gusty elbow]

Would something like a calendar app be difficult as a first project?

[radiant moon]

maybe a simple card game, or dungeon game

if you keep it simple, no, it'd be fine

[gusty elbow]

Would you reccomend I use kivvy for it?

[radiant moon]

no, because I've never used kivy

I have the vague sense that kivy is pretty complex, but I could be wrong.

[gusty elbow]

Does Python work well on mobile devices with Kivy?

*without

[radiant moon]

I don't really know, but my gut says "no"

my gut also says: nobody really uses python on mobile; that's just for hobbyists.

warning: uninformed and probably bigoted speculation.

[gusty elbow]

Ehat you reckon are the main uses for python?

*what

*Would

[radiant moon]

writing computer programs, mostly

🙄

srsly, I use it all day every day for web services

lots of people use it for science-y math-y statistics-y stuff

[gusty elbow]

Ok so what you've told me im guessing a calendar desktop application would be viable right?

[radiant moon]

well I dunno about "viable" but "fun" and "educational", sure, if you don't try to do too much at first

"calendar application" is pretty vague, you could mean a bunch of things.

Don't try to implement all of Google Calendar right away, e.g.

[gusty elbow]

I see thanks for the assistantence

[gritty dove]

I wish to be an expert

in Python

[radiant moon]

so do I

[thick fable]

There's a program being developed to convert python bytecode to java bytecode which enables you to write native android apps in python

https://github.com/beeware/voc

[indigo sleet]

You could also use Kivy

[golden eagle]

I'm applying for a job and one of the questions is

How much notice are you required to give your current employer?
I'm currently unemployed and studying at uni, so I'd tell them that I'm available to start right away, however, should i mention the specifics, that i'm only able to work 2-3 days a week off the bat? or wait till I actually get screened by HR?

I mentioned in my cover letter that I'm still studying at the moment, but yeah, not really sure

[latent furnace]

@golden eagle - Does the job specify hours?

They usually do

But you should tell them before wasting their time at a later stage. That will piss them off.

[golden eagle]

from what I can see they don't specify hours

the reason I'm considering not telling them upfront is because I graduate in 9 weeks

[marsh wind]

But then nothing to worry about if you tell?

[golden eagle]

alrighty then, tell it is

thanks

[shadow moss]

nox, I would put 0 and if, only if you get a call, let them know you are completely uni in 9 weeks and will be available then

it should be clear in your resume anyways

[gilded valley]

This isn't the channel for this

You should ask in a help channel

[hexed venture]

Sorry my mistake

[gilded valley]

to find one you can do !free in #bot-commands

[hexed venture]

Thank you

[lucid niche]

@dry sapphire

is about 1-2 years okay, you think?
The value of 1-2 years of experience will of course depend on what he/she did during that time, so I can't tell you if it's enough, nor do I know anything about neuroscience programs.
I have also read that academic ability is prized over industrial performance
Again, this is subjective for every instance. E.g. If you have a reference from a professor you researched with during your education who was a well known computational scientist within the industry because of his success before he became a PI, he might be a better reference than a successful computational scientist currently in the industry making his way up the ladder, even if he has had a lot of success so far. This isn't always the case but take this as an example.

@dry sapphire Is your friend looking to go into research, or is he looking to enter the industry? There's a large difference between what is looked for in applicants for most fields as far as I'm aware.

[polar hatch]

how does career outlook look like with these subjects?
machine learning, data mining, stochastics, algorithms, databases, statistics/probability

[vapid jay]

@polar hatch you'll know if u do

[torpid bolt]

at least a few of these will remain in demand for the forseeable future

and they'll get you a good start anyway

[polar hatch]

which ones do you think will fall out of demand?

just curious

[torpid bolt]

i don't think of any in particular, i'm just saying it's very unlikely that all of them will

[sterile vault]

I think current tools for machine learning will eventually be replaced by more advanced ones, similar to modern languages replacing, say, Fortran

[torpid bolt]

i guess the most hyped one currently is Machine Learning, so it's the least likely one to keep in the same level of demand

(things that have been popular for a long time are more likely to remain popular than things that have been popular for a short time, even if currently more popular)

but it's just statistics, machine learning is a very promising field, we'll just see how much it lives up to expectations

[sterile vault]

Imho, will shift from making customised solutions for their business to enterprise "black box solution". But this is all speculation, of course.

[polar hatch]

gotchu

[marsh wind]

I think current tools for machine learning will eventually be replaced by more advanced ones, similar to modern languages replacing, say, Fortran
@sterile vault if you think Fortran is gone though you are mistaken 😅

[sterile vault]

Well, i know plenty of quantum chemistry libraries are written in it, and i bet that plenty of banking software is still on it 🙂 But is there active (if niche) Fortran development scene or is it legacy code walking?

[marsh wind]

Active

Exactly in quantum chemistry Areas

At the very least

And there are linear algebra and related libraries that's been maintained, developed and sold along with compilers by Intel for example

[sterile vault]

Hm, interesting to know 🙂

[marsh wind]

There is little choice there really. C or Fortran @sterile vault

[sterile vault]

Well, i expected such things to migrate on C (libs rewritten, wrappers made), since it's "standart" low-level language with enormous ecosystem.

[marsh wind]

To big of an effort

https://gitlab.com/QEF/q-e

[sterile vault]

To be a bit less off-topic - is it worth the time and effort to learn C as a python dev to better understand interpreter and c-based libraries like numpy?

[marsh wind]

Just look this code for example. Imagine redoing it in C. Why would anyone ever do that

I don't think really, unless you want contribute to them

[sterile vault]

Wow! Look at all these commits. Even modern projects are often more stale than that.

[torpid bolt]

learning C can be useful as it's used as a basis for so many things

[sterile vault]

Why would anyone ever do that Probably to run it somewhere where c is supported, but fortran is not

[torpid bolt]

and it's not a very big language to learn, it's worth it imho

[marsh wind]

Yeah in general C is good to know

Afaik all supercomputers support both

You can even run Quantum espresso on smartphone

[sterile vault]

Ah, the joy of old software, when you can run something even on modern microwave

[gilded valley]

From the Jetbrains survey for interviews less than 40% of respondents report being asked to write any code at all., is it really that common? Or are those results likely skewed in some way? https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#work-_-interview-practices

[shadow moss]

I'm not sure what is going on there

[marsh wind]

is in dirrectly in interview? or also no tech test?

[shadow moss]

like if that's cross section of EVERYONE who has ever interviewed? It's possible they got weeded out before code process

We only ask those to write code near the end

[gilded valley]

their last successful interview process

[torpid bolt]

i think 2/3rd of the jobs i had didn't require me to write any code in the interview

[shadow moss]

and those with Github are not asked at all if they can prove ownership

code in interviews can be poor indication

some people fall apart under stress of interview but are fine normally

[gilded valley]

I see the advantage in them less as ensuring someone can write code, more that someone can communicate reasonably

about a specific/esoteric problem

[shadow moss]

and we have probation period, if you can't write code, you won't last long

[torpid bolt]

still, onboarding someone who can't code is a big loss of time and money

[shadow moss]

alot of megacorps besides FAANG have weird hiring processes because of combo of contractors

[torpid bolt]

it's better to filter a lot earlier than that

[shadow moss]

we hire a ton of contractors unfortuantly, it becomes contractor problem if they get "fired"

[gilded valley]

Does any major company not rely on contractors at this point?

[shadow moss]

no, not that I've seen

I'm not a fan of system but whatever

This is American viewpoint, it may be less common in other countries

[marsh wind]

who is contractor exactly? somoone on timed contract?

[gilded valley]

My understanding is that its pretty common the world over

[shadow moss]

They are employee of Company A working on contract to Company B (megacorp)

[gilded valley]

A contractor is not directly employed by the company they're doing work for

[marsh wind]

oh ok

[gilded valley]

so they aren't treated nearly as well as the actual employees (generally)

[shadow moss]

since they are employee of Company A, if Company B "fires" them, it becomes Company A problem

[marsh wind]

in france it is called "consultant"

[gilded valley]

and in the US they don't get equivalent salaries, or benefits for very similar work

Consultants and contractors are different

in the UK at least

[shadow moss]

yea, in the US, they generally get worse benefits and less job security

[marsh wind]

yeah in France that is what they call contractors quite often.. And company A is called "consulting agency" or smth

[gilded valley]

Consultant = contractor who's paid 2x as much as a normal employee

contractor = person paid 0.5x as much as a normal employee

[shadow moss]

Biggest reason they are love in US is A) They don't show up as employees on financial reports so investors are happy and B) They can terminated without any further issues. Unemployment, severance and all that is problem of contractor, not company

[gilded valley]

Yeah, the business side treats contractors as a an easy way to pull money out of or sink money into different departments

even though it really doesn't work

[shadow moss]

and with my company C) They are H-1B who we want to train up locally so they can go instruct all off shore staff on this project

[marsh wind]

Consultant = contractor who's paid 2x as much as a normal employee

contractor = person paid 0.5x as much as a normal employee
well here they all are called consultants 😂

[shadow moss]

My company loves to have projects which are one FTE manager, a few H-1B team leaders under them, tons of offshore staff

or senior developers will be H-1B contractors and all medium/junior devs are offshore depending on FTE manager desire and ability to acquire visas, which is harder under Trump

[radiant moon]

my company hires all the non-USAians for the Dublin office

EZPZ (or at least relatively)

then the brave ones manage to come to the US

[pale yacht]

guys how common is it for 19 year olds to land a job at Microsoft

this guy smart as hell

I thought people had to graduate first then find a job 😆

[wintry imp]

its normal if ur smart

[gilded valley]

That video looks like clickbait nonsense. But its not unreasonable to get an internship between year 1 and 2 of university

[wintry imp]

u never know.. u might me smarter than him bud

ture @gilded valley

just trying to monetise from ppl who got imposter syndrome

[mint citrus]

prob connections

also ever realized that most popular videos are all from people in cali?

[torpid bolt]

opportunities do vary wildly depending on your location yes

i mean, he's probably good, but he's also in the right place and certainly have the right kind of support around him

i do know a 19 guy who was CTO of his startup at 19 (and he's still at it, doing a lot of good work)

[mint citrus]

depending on what background you come from and what resources are available to you also matter a lot

but lets not get too much into that

some people are just privileged and thats ok. life isnt fair and its mostly about luck and hard work

[torpid bolt]

well, the thing is, even priviledged people that are successful feel they worked hard, and often they did, it's just that it's not the only factor.

[mint citrus]

well yeah of course

never said people dont work hard

gotta work hard to keep the position you are given after all and sometimes thats a big learning curve

[pale yacht]

na bro I don't think it's clickbait because he's like a trusted youruber, however, he mentioned that his recruiter contacted him after seeing his YouTube channel

but again I think that he deserved it because he earned the privilege of being a youtuber because he had to work hard cuz he has 120k subscribers

[stable lily]

highly doubt he works for MS bc they would have to approve any posting since he now is affiliated with MS.

[pale yacht]

bro he's a nice kid he's like genuine with his viewers and I feel like he would be too afraid to lie because of all the backlash he would get

[frozen eagle]

Are his main languages Python C and Webdev?

[pale yacht]

but ngl tho I was too stupid and I thought that a big tech company like Microsoft would REQUIRE C#

[stable lily]

he is prolly a coop or intern

[frozen eagle]

coop for sure

[pale yacht]

just python and java script

can you stay with the company after coop?

[frozen eagle]

Must be really good if he's only in those two languages

[stable lily]

depends on the company

[frozen eagle]

If they want to hire you

Most of the times they dont

but if you're good enough or the hiring manager lieks you

they might offer yo ua postion post grad

[stable lily]

I work for a top ten company and it depends on opening, you need to earn the job, they wont just give it to you

[frozen eagle]

"earn" the job you say

hmm

guess I'll be wearing my french maid outfit every day to my job

[pale yacht]

this is like the Waterloo website it shows Microsoft he might be in waterloo

[frozen eagle]

waterloo

You shouldn't even be questioning then

[pale yacht]

those guys are too sick

[frozen eagle]

I had a friend who went to waterloo and worked at google, wish and yahoo

[pale yacht]

but it's honestly kinda strange that Waterloo has a better reputation than freakin UOFT for cs

[frozen eagle]

Its not

[pale yacht]

like UOFTTTTT

[frozen eagle]

UOFT accepts too many people

Like way too many

[pale yacht]

really

[frozen eagle]

I'm not syaing "it's easy"

[pale yacht]

I thought their acceptance rate was like 30%

[frozen eagle]

I'm saying they accept a ton of people to seem very hard

and then because of that they actually loose people

here

[pale yacht]

guys I have a question... this one guy was talking on how companies needed us and we have to show them that we are valuable and picky and such, but I honestly feel like we need them, like we need to be hired and we shouldn't act like we are picky and stuff... am I wrong

[torpid bolt]

my feeling is that they need us more than we need them

but your experience my vary

i know i get a lot more offer that i can answer

[pale yacht]

bro but I feel like we can't have this mentality because everyone fights for the exact same position

[mint citrus]

I got a lot of shit offers

like 80% of them freelance gigs

[pale yacht]

really guys

is it hard to find a job or no

[torpid bolt]

i get a lot of fulltime position offers

[mint citrus]

I need more fulltime positions

I dont what makes me look like a freelancer

[pale yacht]

because they were saying that everyone is doing cs and everyone is competitive

[mint citrus]

look at my resume and you only see full time jobs

[torpid bolt]

but i'm not junior, i've been doing python for more than a decade, and around a decade professionaly, that helps

[pale yacht]

@torpid bolt did you get a job with only python?

[torpid bolt]

i understand that it's harder for junior

[mint citrus]

ive been doing software engineering for 8 years

maybe cause im all web

[torpid bolt]

"a"?

[mint citrus]

😦

[torpid bolt]

all my recent jobs where mostly python or python only

[mint citrus]

@pale yacht your first job will be the most difficult

[pale yacht]

damn damn I thought having python on ly was not enough

[torpid bolt]

i did some front as well in my last position, but i'm not very good at that and they understood that, that's not what i came for..

of course, it's good to have a lot more general knowledges, knowing just python, the language, is not enough

[mint citrus]

I never did python at my jobs

[torpid bolt]

i've done python at most of my jobs since the first one in 2007

[pale yacht]

like I can't lie I was really intooo wanting to go to uni for cs but after watching this guy I found the reality about this industry I guess

@torpid bolt did you use flask in your job or is flask like too unprofessinoal

[mint citrus]

i would not look at that guy and think you can get the same treatment

just because he got it

[torpid bolt]

it's not too unprofessional, but i didn't use it

a lot of companies use it

[pale yacht]

bro he said some guys make 11$ an hour