The difference between janitors, and professional jobs like Software Engineers, is there are plenty of people willing to be janitors, but not plenty of good software engineers
#career-advice
gilded valley
vapid jay
but they will say accept this salary or go other place, you're not the only programmer here in the earth
gilded valley
Yes
and you go to another place
and get a higher salary
or you re evaluate your choices
vapid jay
then you try to negociate and say same thing
gilded valley
I'm not sure if you quite understand the concept of negotiation
sterile vault
Then you'll go to place with 6000$ salary (if you are good enough to get paid that much)
vapid jay
hmm
gilded valley
Software engineers are not all payed the same wage. People doing the same work on the same team might not even be paid the same wage
thats the nature and power of negotiation
sterile vault
Getting a raise (for example, switching from junior to middle dev) in same company vs going to higher-paying position in another are both viable methods of advancement, though i think 2d one is more common
vapid jay
how u rank up from junior to senior developer. you need an approval or what ?
gilded valley
No, you decide you're good enough, and start applying for those positions
then you either get rejected, or accepted to interview, and eventually possibly to a job
gilded valley
Yeah, the experience+skills do need to come first
vapid jay
wait. what are jobs that requires Python ?
gilded valley
Software Engineer. Machine Learning/Data science specialist. Cyber security positions
They can all require python
marsh wind
@vapid jay also FYI, @torpid bolt here is in France
sterile vault
Data science-related, machine learning (btw, economics knowledge may be valuable here) as an example.
vapid jay
FYI what is that
marsh wind
For your information
vapid jay
you're in France ?
marsh wind
maybe that's only in some countries. Am here in France
So in France it works too
vapid jay
hmm
marsh wind
Yes. And so is tshirtman
vapid jay
maybe
marsh wind
So when he said all that above he was speaking from his experience including France
Trust him :)
vapid jay
am Beginner in PyTHON :p
marsh wind
Everyone starts somewhere
vapid jay
Software Engineer is the person who makes Softwares ?
gilded valley
Depending on your age, this stuff really doesn't matter yet. All that matters is you're interested in the subject area, do somewhat well in school, and enjoy life - there's no harm in asking questions, but don't stress about things
Yes a software engineer writes code to build software
sterile vault
To make software in python you only need a text editor, and python interpreter (probably already installed on your pc) to run it.
Stuff that could be useful is VERY large topic and depends on what software you want to develop.
vapid jay
@sterile vault what is purpose of interpreter
sterile vault
I suggest looking through https://pythondiscord.com/pages/resources/
vapid jay
just tell me
real python
@vapid jay a.) Stop harassing other people b.) This has nothing to do with careers
vapid jay
yes it is. about interpreter
real python
That's not how you speak to other people
real python
I'm not talking to you
opal perch
Ela, I wouldn't be surprised if he was under 13 mate
vapid jay
These are your Sewers.
lucid niche
Apologies, i'll leave ya to it.
real python
f
!tempmute 617872424960131105 7d This will be your last warning to knock off the low-effort trolling
inner wrenBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @vapid jay until 2020-02-05 01:02 (6 days and 23 hours).
real python
@opal perch Thanks for your input
opal perch
I thought that tempmute was for me at first haha, anyway back to topic
orchid kraken
Even though this is completely irrelevant to careers, if you going to troll at least be somewhat good at it like smh bro lol
harsh patio
Has anyone here ever done a tech interview programming in notepad?
Was looking for some advice or things to consider, as I never have and have to do this in a couple days
radiant moon
if I was the interviewer, and knew you were using notepad, that'd ... discourage me
harsh patio
Yeah it sounds like they’re just throwing this shit together. I’m really not sure what is expected of me in this. It’s gonna be zoom screen share writing shit in notepad/word document
Maybe pseudo coding? I don’t know. Doesn’t make much sense so far
hushed kestrel
Notepad++ or notepad?
It's probably fair to just ask them what they want to see from the exercise
harsh patio
Was told ‘notepad or word document’
hushed kestrel
"You want me to code in a word document? ....Do you prefer words 2003, or 2010? "
harsh patio
I emailed to verify I’m not using an IDE or some kind of other coding document of some sort
Guess I’ll have an answer tomorrow
hushed kestrel
It seems a bit silly not to be allowed an IDE
If IDEs can code for you..
Then why not hire the IDE instead
harsh patio
I hate interviews so much
Everyone does something different or it’s leetcode
Shits annoying
hushed kestrel
What's bad is that some people have no sense of scale for code that can be done in 1 hour
I was given a 1000 line coded connect four program with several main functions missing, I was asked to implement the functions with exactly the input/output they require and run unit tests for functionality
radiant moon
tbh I think my company uses some weird "shared editor" thing like etherpad from 2005
harsh patio
It just baffles me. Isn’t this career all about solving problems?
hushed kestrel
Some of it is
harsh patio
And yet we can’t seem to figure out how to do decent interviewing for jobs
hushed kestrel
Some of it isn't
Like, having a job that writes a standard library for other devs to use should probably use library conventions
harsh patio
^ interviews should be tailored towards what you’re gonna be doing imo. Show you have the knowledge to do that job. Not just -generic programming knowledge-
radiant moon
where I work, the engineers are world class and we make great stuff. But our HR is from the Stone Age. I've never understood this.
hushed kestrel
Uh
Some places are more hoop jumpy than others
If you hire people who are good at hoop jumping, they'll do more hoop jumping on the job
harsh patio
Idk I just really want this job because it sounds very promising and my tech screening went very well
I’m nervous that I’m gonna bomb this zoom interview
Because who the fuck codes in notepad
radiant moon
maybe it's like where I work -- a great place to work, but kinda nutty HR people. If so, just grit your teeth and deal with it.
If it turns out the whole place is nutty, there's no law says you can't quit later
radiant moon
maybe notepad is standing in for a whiteboard
mint citrus
Notepad++ guys
radiant moon
and they're not expecting you to write running, or even syntactically valid, code; instead it's just a place to throw crude ideas, so you can then talk about them
vapid jay
don't stress out about it
gilded valley
What sort of questions were you asked?
shut geyser
behavorial
why industry switch
why am i applying to Junior
and a weird old google style weird question as 'how many pong balls you put in a plane"
gilded valley
Was that a logical thinking type question?
shut geyser
no idea
gilded valley
As in on par with being asked something like "How many people get married in Germany every year?"
gilded valley
Yeah, sounds like it. I really dislike the idea of those questions
shut geyser
a bit, the root of the thing was estimating how many suscribtion they have, and i have no fucking idea
should have searched tbh but still
torpid bolt
Can we crush them? You can fit a lot more this way
Reduce them to plastic powder, fill the plane with that.
Is the plane an f16 like one or more like a a380?
Does it need to flight full of balls like this?
Oh ok, that wasn't the exact question, sorry for the digression :p
harsh patio
I’m waiting for an email from my HR person to see if I’m really doing my tech interview in fucking notepad
Because if I have to do that I think I’m gonna fail
gilded valley
Why? Assuming you don't need to write perfect code, just get across the idea of an algorithm, shouldn't that be fine?
shut geyser
you can train it also ryhphino
if you did leetcode as you suggested you will be fine
just learn to remove the corrector
@torpid bolt i'm a bit mad
and them saying i'm too experienced 3 times, give a bit red warning about salary prospects
marsh wind
Are you really?
shut geyser
in my opinion no, but i have skills relevant to the position in another industry
after all technically i left school last year
harsh patio
I hope it’s very sudocode-y. Having to write in notepad I mean. But they want to see how well I know python as well so I feel like imma be gauged on some level of how accurate by ‘python’ code is
shut geyser
that's kinda fair, train your fluency on leetcode, they won't ask you super hard obscure method or metaprogramming
if they do, they're dickish
harsh patio
I had been doing a lot of leetcode but I’m still no where near ready. For example, I probably couldn’t work with any tree problems yet
torpid bolt
@shut geyser it might be a negociation technique aimed exactly at lowering your expectation, as you might think you are a better fit for the position that they could reasonably hope for
(as you mention having relevant knowledge from another industry)
shut geyser
i went to search online and the answer was on some obscure news site about trucks
made the news in 2019 i think
not even on their site
how would that benefit them @torpid bolt
torpid bolt
Some people see negociation as a very normal thing, not antagonist at all, even if it affects your interests in the end
Well lower pay benefits them
torpid bolt
The better counter i know to that is having other offers, preferably higher
shut geyser
like i said my salary and they went like "you know belgium have more taxes"
i was like, "i expect more anyway"
torpid bolt
Last time i actively looked for work, i did ask different starting prices to diff companies
shut geyser
tbh i would accept for the same salary
because job is more interesting and so i can move in with my gf
torpid bolt
Then as they all got accepted, i had leverage to negotiate
shut geyser
i should apply more
torpid bolt
That's always a true statement, imho
gilded valley
More openness about salary would make negotiation a lot better for workers I think
marsh wind
Hm? Do they have any legal reason to do so
shut geyser
nah
onyx sluice
Pretty sure banning disclosure of salary is illegal.
It really only benefits the employer.
shut geyser
i will say it when i get another offer
slip it like
ah they offer me X more than here
so they can calculate
and so i do'nt burn briges
bridges
torpid bolt
my next job has something like this for bonus, if i read the employees manual correctly
gilded valley
Why?
torpid bolt
in negociations, yeah, not a great idea, unless they are low balling you too close (or under) that
gilded valley
Oh sure - I meant in a more general sense
torpid bolt
but i sort of can't help it, i'm bad at negociations, i believe too much in truth and the good will of people
gilded valley
in the UK at least, discussing salaries is not generally done
torpid bolt
in a more general sense i believe workers should be quite open about their earnings, it's beneficial to other workers, and to themselves
it's not done enough in france, but it should
gilded valley
Yeah, I strongly agree, and my point was mostly focused on that
torpid bolt
when you discover your coworker earns less than you, they rarely ask for you to get paid less, what they want, is to be paid more
so talking about it will raise the median salary, which will benefit you when you ask for a raise for good work or whatever
gilded valley
I think its a tiny amount of people who think that talking about salaries might help hurt them, but that those people have somehow gotten their way
torpid bolt
well, if you think you earn more than others, you fear people would envy you, though i don't think that's often the case if you are open about it, and if you think you earn less, well, you don't want people to think you are the sucker, so it's hard to open up about it
if you don't know, you fear to find out 😄
vapid jay
@torpid bolt depends on the companies. In the public sector in Denmark everything is so regulated, and most raises come from a shared pool among employees - so it is literally at the expense of others if you get a raise. (though this is only for the public sector, private companies are much better at this...)
So it is not always in the interest of the employees, as it causes a lot of friction among people. "Why did person A get a raise, when person B clearly does more".
torpid bolt
yeah that i can understand
even in private companies, the money has to come from somewhere, and they have to plan recruitment and raises according to some kind of budget, they have some freedom, but usually people managing that should stay around what they pitched to the companies in the previous year or so, so yes, there can be frictions anyway, but if you scale your view a bit more, you see your pay does influence the whole industry, so this knowledge will benefit all workers in it, as long as there is demand for their skills of course.
obsidian acorn
I terms of disclosing salary while at work, it is definitely not the best idea. When you apply for a position, the negotiation tactics is definitely a key. Once you negotiate your rate, you should keep that in mind. some people are better at negotiating, whilst others are not.
when at work, disclosing your rate can cause frictions between you, other employees, and your managers. Talking about comparing rates at work have lead to terminations, and still does. Keep that in mind.
AS @torpid bolt explain above your salary comes from a budget appropriated for that particular project or team for that year, and it is also based on the projection of that team as well.
Therefore, some teams/company can only offer so much, to bring you in, and if they have other high quality people applying, they may pass you on for someone who requires less as salary.
gilded valley
Talking about comparing rates at work have lead to terminations, and still does. Keep that in mind. that sounds thoroughly illegal to me
at least in the UK
vapid jay
@gilded valley Definitely illegal in Denmark as well.
mild zenith
It's legal in the US. Although there's a growing debate about it
It benefits corporations more than it does the worker, and the only benefit to keeping your salaries hidden is to aid in wage gaps
vapid jay
In Denmark, it is specifically written into the law that employees are allowed to disucss their salaries 🙂
obsidian acorn
@coral otter sorry for the late reply.
as @shut geyser answered, key words counts, are important. And having the tools mentioned in the job description multiple times is what you need in your resume/profile
vapid jay
But I guess the rule should just be to be aware of written (and unwritten!) rules before discussing salary...
mild zenith
Sure, but if your contract you sign when you join a business explicitly forbids it, you might want to wonder what else they want to keep hidden from their employees
obsidian acorn
exactly
In the US, it is an unwritten rule, that also allows negotiation for rates
hushed kestrel
What is an unwritten rule ? I am trying to follow the thread
hushed kestrel
I think there are some legit good reasons to not talk about salary at work. Even though salary discussion is very legally protected in the US, usually how salary discussion happens in the work place (in my experience ) happens with your coworkers over lunch or w/e where managers can't hear. There are social consequences and it is easier for a manager to give a raise to someone who they think will keep it secret to minimize their costs
I don't know if you can sign away your right to discuss your salary. Hmm
cinder belfry
@mild zenith is it? I thought it was covered under the NLRA
mild zenith
I might entirely be wrong
But there's certainly a culture that discourages such sharing
cinder belfry
first example is "talking with one or more co-workers about your wages and benefits or other working conditions"
mild zenith
You're totally right
I guess I was just being a pessimist and assumed that the US sucked in this regard
cinder belfry
certainly lots of companies try it and there doesn't seem to be any enforcement against that kind of general intimidation, you'd have to get actually punished for it and sue them
mild zenith
Unless you sign away that right and get trapped in them demanding it go through arbitration instead
Which has also started to be cracked down on, but if you don't have the resources to fight it...
The little guy always loses out in these situations
cinder belfry
you could still report them - arbitration might let them stop you from getting anything, but it won't stop them from getting fined by the government
ok hmm no apparently they don't do fines https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/what-we-do/investigate-charges
torpid bolt
I think that culture is just globaly pushed by the companies, because it benefits them, which means it hurts workers.
obsidian acorn
Agreed, and without Unions, there is not much you can do to enforce that, since they can just fire you, and hire someone else
vapid jay
For those in the US, how common is it to be a member of a union?
coral otter
That varies widely by industry
Like most things in the US it depends on location and industry. Sometimes it is mandatory, sometimes not.
hushed kestrel
@mild zenith Only something like half the states in the US says that no employer as a condition of employment can require you to sign your right away to discuss wages
pseudo plinth
Tbh, this is something which never makes sense ro me
to me*
Why are people so judgemental
Like, doesn't matter to me how much you're making as long as it's an honest living and it's keeping you happy
I find that here in the UK people very rarely discuss their salary directly
weary path
I'm in 8th
Gonna go to 9th in 2 months
Time to choose my career
Lil suggestions?
marsh wind
enjoy life, few people choose career that earl
just pick what is intereting for you now
open patio
i agree, enjoy your life and go out with friends. i wouldn't start thinking about choosing a career until 10th/11th grade, so you can take electives about the field you possibly want to work in (what i'm doing rn 😃)
marsh wind
well I don't know exactly what age is 9th and what are electives, but few people actually choose career until they are at least 20
hushed kestrel
@pseudo plinth If you are working some scrubass job for peanuts and you find someone 5 years your junior making 1-3 $/h more than you, (equivalent to 2k-6k a year which is huge), I would expect you to be salty about it.
US culture it is closer to say what you make == what you are worth
(Not absolutely true, but it is true in a larger degree than anyone of use are comfortable with) In England it is a faux pas I hear to just ask someone you just meet at a party what their salary is..So it doesn't seem to be too off the mark there either.,
@weary path Whoever told you that you need to decide a career at this stage in your life is a #@$@ idiot
You have so much time to do so many things and explore your interests. You're still a kid
Be you for the short time that you can be
pseudo plinth
This is the bit I don't understand
US culture it is closer to say what you make == what you are worth
@hushed kestrel
Paramedics, nurses and researchers (just to name a few) earn peanuts compared to how much your average joe actually values and respects them
hushed kestrel
Those jobs require actual training and technically those people have careers of sorts.
Their potential earnings /impact are huge. It's pretty obvious what their social utility is
gilded valley
what you make == what you are worth That seems like such an incredible level of delusion, that I find it unlikely that its true outside of the US
that people hold that belief on a widespread scale
hushed kestrel
It totally is. It's capitalism bby
gilded valley
Yeah. And practically no country is zealously capitalist in the way the US is
hushed kestrel
what you make == what you are worth < - I used the double '=' to show that both of these things are equivalent statements. I'm not assigning value from what you make into what you are worth. That would suggest you could assign other values into what you are worth and obviously this isn't true.
pseudo plinth
Secondly, I've got a slightly off topic question
gilded valley
I don't follow that at all
pseudo plinth
Do careers which stem from working as a developer age well
hushed kestrel
Programming as a career is going to age well. Individual positions will fucking die as technology blooms
pseudo plinth
Hmm, I'm not sure what you mean by that
gilded valley
Working in your framework, what you make == what you are worth means that your value is intrinsically linked towhat you make
but I also don't understand your framework there either
hushed kestrel
You'll have to support legacy code/positions that will pay a fuck ton because you are irreplaceable. (You'll be surprised that like, 1/3 of the market still uses shit like windows 98 or something)
pseudo plinth
I just mean, you know how with experience a doctor becomes more and more reputable, they gain invaluable practical knowledge of rare cases and they rely less on what they learned in their specialist training and degrees and more on their daily cumulative experience
hushed kestrel
You aren't going to see a huge influx of python 2.0 programmers. That positioned died
pseudo plinth
So a lot of medical jobs "age well" so to speak
You can be slow at processing stuff and still be successful
gilded valley
Specifically programming jobs don't necessarily age well in the long term. But there are oppurtunities to move out of actualyl programming/writing code
That is my understanding
pseudo plinth
Is it similar with programming, or is it more of a case of you need to be young and sharp, and you "peak" when you have mid-level experience
hushed kestrel
Uh- Programming typically goes to senior- > Float there for the rest of your life
You can shift into management for upwards mobility or grasp more tech stacks to be the architect
pseudo plinth
So as a developer, you get worse with time?
gilded valley
No, you won't get worse. But the rate of increase will slow
pseudo plinth
Well, that's in every field isn't it?
hushed kestrel
Eh, sorta
gilded valley
No, not necessarily
pseudo plinth
The better you get at anything the more marginal the gains in skill are likely to be?
gilded valley
Its not about better/worse, just the positions you hold
hushed kestrel
Programming careers who are driven can make as much as lawyers/doctors if they transition into c-suite
gilded valley
What do you mean? There are plenty of people who have lucked into positions far beyond their actual ability
hushed kestrel
CEO, CTO, CFO, ect ect
pseudo plinth
Oh yeah of course
What do you mean? There are plenty of people who have lucked into positions far beyond their actual ability
@gilded valley I thought it's fairly easy to get exposed when you're producing solutions for a living
gilded valley
Yes, but it doesn't take long to shift out of making things and into managing other people making things
pseudo plinth
Hmm, tbh if I would wanna become a doctor it wouldn't be to make extortionate amounts of money like they do in the US
(Living in the UK, most GP's or consultants barely make 6 figure salaries)
hushed kestrel
Doctors don't make actually that much money tbh
gilded valley
Doctors earn not great salaries (for the time and effort it takes to become one) because theres so many people who want to become doctors
gilded valley
Yeah, I'm talking from a UK perspective - and I think a lot of the EU
pseudo plinth
Oh, yeah
That I can agree with
Tbh it's one of the most rewarding careers though
hushed kestrel
First year doctors average salary is like 150k
pseudo plinth
Man here most doctors don't ever see 150k gbp even with private work xD
marsh wind
Yeah but it's far from that in EU. Especially in public hospitals in France at least
gilded valley
I think the value of working a "rewarding" job is pretty overvalued
hushed kestrel
There is some large variance. 120-300k starting
pseudo plinth
I think the value of working a "rewarding" job is pretty overvalued
@gilded valley Don't you think the value of working a "rewarding" job just depends on the person?
gilded valley
To some extent - but think for the majority, the idea of how rewarding a job is is mostly just about self justification
pseudo plinth
It's not nearly as objective as something like money which can be directly exchanged for goods and services
hushed kestrel
- They start later in life 32-35
- They pay back .5M medical school debt
- They are tied to specific hospitals/institutions which makes it hard to negotiate aggressive salaries
pseudo plinth
Are you talking about USA or what?
hushed kestrel
Yeah
gilded valley
1 is just wrong
pseudo plinth
1 is wrong
2 is also wrong
Do your med school from a european country
sit your exams to be qualified as a doc in the US starting in your 3rd year
gilded valley
thats also wrong
marsh wind
Lol this discussion 🤦🏻♂️
gilded valley
I think we misunderstood what Sinthrill meant, thats the time it takes to become an independend physician
which I don't really know what that means
but Google agrees with that
pseudo plinth
USMLE Step 1 can be sat in 3rd year, no?
idk that's the information my mother gave me from how people who intended to practice in the US used to go about doing things
gilded valley
Yeah, to be fair, a starting salary of $150k if you're taking it from the point at which you've finished your residency isn't even really that much at all
hushed kestrel
Which in my infinite wisdom lumped together
pseudo plinth
it isn't, but like I said, just do med school from a european country
do you need to do the same number of years for residency doe
marsh wind
What's residency btw
pseudo plinth
housejob
gilded valley
It takes 7 years to become a doctor in the UK
marsh wind
That didn't make it clear
marsh wind
Like you are assigned to some or something?
hushed kestrel
Being a programmer you can make 100k + starting when you are 24 with < 100k debt. You can easily make it upto 180-250k within 5 years and coast forever if you want
(In the U.S. at least)
gilded valley
That 100k starting salary is only for very big cities
pseudo plinth
100k starting as a programmer? xD
pseudo plinth
while spending 70k on rent sharing a cage with a hamster?
gilded valley
Jane Street's is £100,000
pseudo plinth
Facebook's grad salary in the uk is £70,000
@gilded valley lol really?
hushed kestrel
22-30k rent max
gilded valley
Those are exceptions, not the rule. But those salaries exist in the UK
I'm skeptical that they're standard in the US though
pseudo plinth
idk I'm hearing this as a first
Facebook grad salary 70k
Maybe for one particular role lol
gilded valley
I mean, I know people who interned there last summer
so
its possible they were all very exceptional people
but I don't think so
hushed kestrel
people who intern at facebook in us makes like, effective 90k/y
gilded valley
they just got standard entry level positions
pseudo plinth
I mean
Glassdoor reports an avg salary of 74k
So starting at 70k would seem a little high, wouldnt it?
hushed kestrel
pseudo plinth
Also, another interesting fact
if you look at this statistic which universities for some reason love(d) to publish
salary 6 months after graduating
I was at Imperial College's open day when they spoke about the max salary (someone ever made) after graduation
it was only 60k or so
if it is as you claim it is, then surely some student would have had that 70k
Don't you think so?
gilded valley
Look. I'm not going to argue with you. I literally spent the summer working alongside people from Imperial, I spoke to people interning at Facebook.
pseudo plinth
Fair
marsh wind
Also I don't think glassdoor is super accurate when it comes to salary.
I saw some strange things there that were rather contradictory to info I had from people in company
gilded valley
I think it includes contractors may be why
marsh wind
Idk why exactly, is it amount of data, or the bonuses that aren't included in salary slavery
pseudo plinth
Well, tbh
gilded valley
there are definitely no real bonuses in slavery
pseudo plinth
Talking about this is kinda pointless
hushed kestrel
I know 4-10 people working at facebook and have lots of friends in silicon valley. I'm not trying to debate anyone here. I am just sharing things that I think are true. If I am wrong, I would like to be educated too.
marsh wind
Charlie, corrected 😂
hushed kestrel
When I was living in a hackerhouse with 40 + people interning at FAANG over the summer, they told me their salaries and they said they were making equivalent 90k a year
marsh wind
And you are right there are none. Proves point that PhD=slavery 😂
gilded valley
PhDs at good unis seem miserable
marsh wind
We are
Lol
There arr few countries where they do better
But for the most part it's kinda shitty as well as academic opportunities after
gilded valley
I like the idea of doing one, but I don't think I have the work ethic or motivation
They do seem like they lead to interesting jobs though - mainly consulting stuff
marsh wind
Heard that, but ain't easy to get that. I really need to pick up some projects I can show
I can't say tho I regret doing PhD. It's just that I'd approach it differently now
gilded valley
What field is your PhD in?
And what would your different approach be? Just jumping into industry?
marsh wind
Theoretical physics /computational Material Science
No. I mean approaching PhD and way of organizing myself in doing it
gilded valley
ah - sure
marsh wind
For most part of it I was thinking I would pursue academia
So I was not doing much to prepare myself to other path
And later when I realized I don't want academic career I also realized how I could come out much more industry prepared
Well maybe not much. But definitely better
gilded valley
Thats interesting - thanks for answering
marsh wind
If you want I can give some examples of where exactly I could do better without much of additional time investment even
gilded valley
That would be interesting, yeah
marsh wind
Like simplest thing would be pick some python and use matplotlib instead of xmgrace and gnuplot
That alone would help me to get solid hang of the scientific python stack
Then there is also a matter of git
As we used svn and on a very primitive level
We had here and there some events that allow to meet people who transitioned to industry and came to share experience
Also I am sure I could use python to automate some stuff I did and better manage workspace and all remote machines I was using
In fact there is even a framework for the code we used for calculations aimed at that
And these are just things from the top of my head @gilded valley
gilded valley
Thats all pretty interesting. I'm slightly surprised by the git one. It seems even from CS backgrounds, a surprising amount of people graduate without knowing more than the most basic stuff
I'll keep it in mind for deciding if I ever want to do a PHD
That its worth considering industry in the choices you make
marsh wind
I actually was pushing our group leader to ditch svn for git before leaving
marsh wind
@radiant moon they still use svn....
And you'd better not know how exactly they (we) use it
radiant moon
don' wanna
I was a fan of svn when it was new, tbh -- the developers were (are) great people, and the documentation was excellent
but they lost me when they introduced "merge tracking"; it just got insanely complex
fickle gate
what would you guys suggest to do for building a github portfolio?
hushed kestrel
Why not?
If you want to make an artist portfolio, we could provide a layout of what you should fill that portfolio up with
Doesn't seem like a stretch to say "here is what you can do "
fickle gate
not what the projects are about themselves, but like what sort of documentation i should be doing n such
hushed kestrel
Zevfer, I haven't done the research, but maybe if you happen to find a guide how to make a good github project, you could share it? :D?
fickle gate
smh
torpid bolt
considering git is ~12 years old, that can't be 20 years ago :P, but yeah, i'm not surprised there are still places that didn't switch to git or something using the same concepts (mercurial being the most plausible second choice, and things like darks, fossil other possible ones, or – laugths – bazaar).
i want to disagree with some positions expressed earlier today, i don't think programmers don't age well as programmers and need to change to more managerial positions, they may want to, and it's fine, but a lot of older programmers are still at it and benefiting of decades of hindsight, sure they might learn new things at a slower pace, but they usually know quite a few ones that might map well to "new" things, and fasten the learning, and they might have quite a big bag of trick to work faster on things, also the experience of having seen a lot of project go good or bad can be very helpful.
there is a reason the pay for programmers can grow so fast with age, is that the experience is very valuable.
radiant moon
I resemble that remark
gilded valley
I think my point with the programmers not aging well was more focused on salary than anything else. It seems to me that doctors, lawyers and other typical professions have mostly linear or better salary growth. Whereas there seems to be a bit more of a ceiling, or at least a slower growth rate later in a career, with programming than something like a doctor. My guess is their skill grows at the same rate, just the impression I get is that their value from a business perspective doesn't - although I very much am talking about something which I don't have direct experience with. This is just the impression I get from talking to random people, most of whom were in the business side at this point rather than the programming side
vapid jay
well its easier to get hired when youre younger in a lot of places
and you typically make more money switching jobs than you do staying with a company
so older people are more likely to stay with a company and get smaller raises per year
whereas younger people can hop jobs and make 15%+ more per job if theyre consistent
companies want young minds with new ideas
and also they want to look like they have a young workforce, so other young people want to work there
gilded valley
companies want young minds with new ideas
Firstly, I'm skeptical how true that is. Secondly, I really resent the idea that some group of people is better at creativity than another
marsh valley
want young minds
need 12 years of experience in this obscure technology to be junior
vapid jay
thats simply untrue
hushed kestrel
"Full stack software engineer new grads"
vapid jay
no need to exaggerate here
torpid bolt
i don't know https://www.jefftk.com/money i don't see a ceiling here, but it certainly depends on careers
vapid jay
also a lot of those things are just to weed people out. you can apply for any position and get hired.
within reason
torpid bolt
(it's not me, it's an example of someone openly documenting their earnings i stumbled upon not long ago)
vapid jay
I work for a company with a lot of legacy tech and they make an attempt to incentivize younger people to work for the company
torpid bolt
it's not a long career though, i guess to find examples of longer career, i must look for celebrities i know about, and that's a biased sample
vapid jay
but there's a balance between having new ideas and being respectful of what makes sense to use, and what doesnt make sense to use
torpid bolt
in my current company (that i'm leaving for a great offer, but with some regrets), i'm one of the old guys, most of the team is less that 30, it's crazy, and they are really good, i'm impressed by how good they are, but i've got nothing but respect from them, and they'd love to hire more senior programmers, its' just hard to find them.
gilded valley
I guess another aspect of it is that the world of software engineering is changing at a much faster pace than doctoring/lawyering. So what might have been true 30 years ago probably doesn't hold true
torpid bolt
(and also they are expensive)
from what i see, yes, things change, but also yes, they stay the same
old guard will often point out that "new" ideas are reincarnations and twists of ideas that were around 30 or more years ago
so if they did their homework back then, they already know most of what there is to know about the new tech, they just need to learn the syntax and some technical details
gilded valley
I meant from a perspective of attitudes towards the industry are changing
The job title of "programmer" is mostly dead
but it was kicking around for a long time
torpid bolt
but it's hard to find people who have been programming for over 30 years, they weren't that many to begin with, and of course some transitionned to other jobs
gilded valley
and the integration of programming and business is (I think) better than it used to be
meaning programmers might have better prospects now, than when the two aspects were more strictly separated
All of the people I've spoken to who have been doing it for >20 years were writing c/c++ for most of it
torpid bolt
but if @radiant moon wants to give some data points, that'd be welcome 😛 did you change job recently enough to have a taste of the market from the perspective of someone with a lot more experience than us?
radiant moon
you talkin' to me?
I'm the only one here
I'm surrounded by 25-year-olds who are twice as smart as me
but they do occasionally come to me for the Unix greybeard questions
torpid bolt
hm, ok, well i think the twice as smart can be attributed partly to the iq normalization with age (yes, we do get slower), and partly to classical imposteur syndrom, seeing they know things you don't, and having no idea of the things you know that they don't.
but the question was more about the market 😛
but maybe you didn't try it in quite some time, that would be understandable
gilded valley
Is it true that you get slower with age? Obviously at the extreme end you do, but it seems to me like its more about approach and attitude to life than it is age. I've heard, and iirc seen studies, that say as long as you keep learning new things, you don't really get slower except physically
radiant moon
I changed jobs about four years ago, and didn't find it particularly difficult, if that's what you're asking
torpid bolt
well, i don't remember where, but i saw recently something about that, that seemed serious enough
radiant moon
I sure as hell got slower with age. I hate it, and I'm not at all joking now.
I even type worse. You generally can't tell because I go back and correct.
torpid bolt
it was from the point of view of IQ, that you couldn't compare an IQ of 100 (or any value) at 18 and at 60, basically
(IQ being a very loosy metric, but kind of the only one we have)
radiant moon
well I don't know what anyone else's IQ is, but I'm told mine is very high (yes, I know: I Am Very Smart). I can only assume those other guys' are higher.
torpid bolt
sorry to hear that, and i think that's our lot, getting old is not fun, but that's better than the alternative, i guess
radiant moon
Or so says Maurice Chevalier.
radiant moon
- Old age isn't so bad when you consider the alternative.
- Quoted in This Week magazine, 15 May 1960
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Maurice_Chevalier
torpid bolt
ok, well done, it might be where i got it from.
shadow moss
I've seen companies want younger programmers
it's generally not "younger has better ideas" but "younger is cheaper and tech debt is down the road problem"
timber wharf
Which essential skills are needed for an entry level Django back end dev.? Which skills are required to find a job? Can you guys list them simply?
strange merlin
Well, if you look at the job postings, like on Indeed or Glassdoor, you will see lots of "required skills". What I will tell you is that #1 and I can't stress this strongly enough are strong communication skills. You might be brilliant, but if you can't convey your ideas to me in email, you will not be getting a phone interview. If you can't convey your ideas to me over the phone... you better believe we won't be talking face to face.
That said, and take this with a grain of salt, but most companies want to hire someone to do the job they need, who is currently doing that exact same job for their competitor already. This is never the situation. So whatever you know, and whatever you have learned, they will have a different way of doing it, and they will want you to know how to do it the way they do it.
We used to do interviews in pairs. Usually one of the interviewers had the skill that the candidate was applying for and could ask them technical questions. The other one didn't necessarily have that skill set but his purpose was to make sure you were not a dick. At the end of the day, we would all get together for thumbs up/thumbs down meeting and present what we thought. One might conclude "This guy is no expert but he can adapt to what we need, I suggest we offer him the position at a Level xyz" and the next guy would say "He seemed personable and I think he would get along with the team. (Or someone might say "I think someone must have done his phone interview for him, he couldn't program his way out of a wet paper bag" or "I can't attest to his skills, but I think he might kill puppies in his spare time, I wouldn't want him on my team")
Or something like that.
lyric goblet
Not sure if this helps, but I got social anxiety when I began my career as a programmer (10 years ago). Worked mostly from home as the job was a remote job, but then the CEO of the company began to drag me around in meetings with big customers. Difficult at the beginning, anxiety was strong, but I worked hard on my skills and got confident in what I did, and the anxiety disappeared more and more, learning how meetings worked and that people aren't that much smarter than me as I thought.
Not that I am "cured" of all social anxiety, but work does not trigger it anymore 🙂
timber wharf
Except for strong social skills, what else?
lyric goblet
@vapid jay also, finding a great boss/company that sees individuals and their strength, is important. I might have been lucky there.
torpid bolt
@vapid jay remember that most people are guessing this thing just as much as you, and that they want a honest and nice relationship just as you do.
harsh patio
Meh. How do you push through rejections when you spend so much time studying for interviews
hushed kestrel
Push through?
You send out applications, they respond telling you that you aren't worthy of their time, you move on.
Send out 3 -7 applications a day, after a few months you'll go through 10-20 interviews and maybe you'll get 1-2 offers or something
harsh patio
Trying to tailor my career a specific direction. Not trying to just -get- a job. I have one. So just throwing my resume to the wind isn’t what I’m trying to do
hushed kestrel
Then that is easier. Don't just throw your application to the wind. Go and talk to whoever is in charge either by networking or personal email to their direct account, or other social engineering things
If they reject you, then follow up and be like "Look, I get that you are looking for someone, but what would it take for me to become that someone ? I want this job and this direction. Please advise that I wont stop asking."
Persistence is a virtue
harsh patio
Yeah. I’m just bummed because I just had a tech interview and I feel like I sucked. Couldn’t solve an easy AF question. Wallowing in self pity for the moment at how bad I am at leetcode or any on the spot challenging programming
magic leaf
is this right channel to post code review? the code is for task for a job interview
gilded valley
If your code is the same Django code from earlier, #web-development might be better
magic leaf
yeah, it is
shut geyser
3/7 application a day, you'd run out of interesting opportunities fast no?
idk where you are based though
tiny wadi
hi friends, I applied to a data analytics internship for grad students at a legacy/nontech company, and pitched my experience using python and SQL to generate reports at my old job at a startup...
It turns out they were initially looking for someone just to build pivot tables, but they reached out and asked if I wanted to interview for a new position working with multiple data sources
I asked for more details but accepted the interview timeslots, and i just got an email about how they work with a number of different data sources in excel and they want to know if I have a solution to consolidate them all... and uh, I feel entirely over my head here
I know this a python channel but that's because my skillset is largely in python/pandas w some SQL on the side, so I am unclear how to even approach this without going "you should hire multiple Sr data engineers and data architects to bring these sources into a data warehouse solution"
shut geyser
Why do you think your skills wouldnt apply ?
sweet moon
multiple excel sources can just be put into a SQL db and then dealt with from there using your SQL skills, what part is scaring you?
tiny wadi
I mean yeah I'd give it a go, but my only work experience is at a startup where there were 3-4 high level data engineers that designed and operated the entire architecture here
so I have experience working within a database solutions that were already designed, but I've never actually built something like this out
torpid bolt
that's a good experience to use as a starting point to design a DB to replace a collection of spreadsheets
pretty sure whatever you are going to produce is going to be far better than what they have.
make sure they give you some time to actually design the thing, or the ability to iterate a couple times before they start relying on it, and if you do the work to automatically convert their spreadsheets to your data model, (i think pandas should make this quite easy), you should be good.
of course, it depends on how different the data sources are, and how complex the use cases for them are, it might require you to think quite hard about the data model to fit that the best, but again, it's not like they have something sensible currently, so you could really up their game, technology wise
tiny wadi
I appreciate the responses, thanks friends. Feeling significantly more confident about at least entering the interview now because I do have some level of how I would approach it, I was just initially focusing entirely on how the last data engineers I worked with would approach it and felt relatively unqualified
but at the same time my head hurts thinking about how much actually important data they have living in excel sheets, and I feel I can pitch them why they should move out of it and give them at least a starting point
woeful shuttle
@harsh patio just go back and try to fill those gaps by making notes. If it’s stuff you know, then it’s not so bad that it didn’t flow for the interview - just make yourself notes so next time it’s more at the front of your mind when you go in
torpid bolt
@tiny wadi if you want advices on how to approach it strategy wise, i would say to first focus on a few low complexity data sources, that can be used on their own, maybe even just one, so you can validate they can use what you build, and how it changes the way they work should make them eager to migrate the others, with some sensible priorisation.
harsh patio
Update: I stressed the fuck out after my interview and ended up with a call. They wanna bring me onsite and apparently were really impressed with me still. Thanks for vote of confidence everyone!
tiny wadi
that's a good call, thanks @torpid bolt , I feel like that approach makes a lot of sense and is definitely something more reasonable/manageable way to describe what I can do and hopefully be able to produce an easy win
shadow moss
PoliteLlama, just be prepared for alot of frustration
since likely you are facing a huge "We have always done it that way" battle
vocal wind
Hey guys i wanna become i great python developper but i dont know after finishing how to acctually proof to companies so they hire me
Or is it depends on the interviews?
shut geyser
i don't have an offer yet, but i expect that if i get one, i'll get a low one, how can i negotiate
i expect them to give me an offer 12.5% lower than my expectations
dry sapphire
@vocal wind really depends on your country.
some countries are more about certification
some are more about portfolio
/interviews
depends on what subfield you want to get into, too
e.g. something in machine learning would be quite different from something in full stack development
@shut geyser well...how can you justify that?
market research/your own capabilities would be a good start
having a strong alternative would be very nice tooo
shut geyser
no alternative atm, the job is nice, i want it
but meh, i don't want to earn less or as much as i do atm
dry sapphire
well...I mean, you can definitely try to negotiate
shut geyser
yeah but
dry sapphire
I don't think anywhere worth working at will shut you out just because you tried.
as for justification
shut geyser
"i want 10 % more" is okay ?
shut geyser
:p
dry sapphire
well...low chance of success, I'd say
not impossible, but if you can give a reason, that'd be nice
shut geyser
there is a range of reasonable negociation
shut geyser
"old" succesful startup
dry sapphire
you could look into things like remote work, initial bonus etc.
shut geyser
no mention of stocks despite them going on the market recently 😮
dry sapphire
or equity, yeah
for example
I recently got a 15% increase over original offer by quoting differences in pension schemes between where I was from and where I was going (relocated)
and I could probably have gotten more because they agreed so easily to that, heh
shut geyser
nice
dry sapphire
and right now your alternative is basically your current job, right
if they know that you're not happy with that you have less bargaining power
shut geyser
i'd have also to relocate + city much more expensive than where i leave
dry sapphire
okay, look at it this way
you wouldn't take this job if you had to pay them 5k a month, would you?
you always have at least one alternative: your current situation
shut geyser
i guess!
dry sapphire
if you're not happy where you are and you're not really happy with your alternative...maybe it's time to find more alternatives?
or put yourself in a position where you'll be exposed to more alternatives
that said...if it's early in your career and you're not super hard up for cash
I'd say that a good environment + culture far outweigh $$
I'm not sure if I regret taking this job
shut geyser
yeah true!
dry sapphire
it was like a 100% salary increase
but I'm alone in a foreign country
can be a bit rough.
shut geyser
100 % ahah
shut geyser
it would be same deal situation
but i moved a lot in my life, so i'm a bit used to it
shut geyser
it's a python job with a lot of freedom, in a start up environment, for works i don't feel too much imposter syndrom (pipeline, moving excel stuff), allows me to get a bit more "serious" for my job prospects in the future
lot to learn and that's what excite me
dry sapphire
hm.
sounds good, but also nothing that is super unique
I'd say maybe try looking around a bit more in the meantime, too?
shut geyser
yeah i have some months to find a job
torpid bolt
but meh, i don't want to earn less or as much as i do atm
i'd have also to relocate + city much more expensive than where i leave
@shut geyser
These are good enough arguments, and i'm not at ease with asking for more myself, but it does seem that ”i want 10% more” is also fine, it's easier to justify when you have other offers, but you at least have your current position, as gm said. Also check what the market is for your profile in the region you go and ask for more than the average, it's a basis for negociation anyway.
Did they ask you how much you wanted already?
marsh wind
when you get an ofer you can also ask a question like "Is there anything more that can be done in terms of salary?"
or if they said it's final ask "Is there anything more that can be done instead/in addtion of salary?"
bold glacier
If you can afford to you just be assertive and double down on what you want
How old are you @marsh wind
If you're still in your teens as you grow and develop soft skills this stuff will be less worrisome so don't even sweat it for now
bold glacier
Oh, then yeah you can definitely double down on what you want, just keep your current job in the meantime
marsh wind
lol that was not me who asked the question 🙂
bold glacier
My colleague literally walked into her new office with her contract and the stuff she didnt like highlighted and got it changed
But she's a beast
Oh sorry
I misread 🙂
Okay it makes more sense now
marsh wind
But I'll keep that in mind when I will have job to keep and will be negotiating new ones
bold glacier
27 is too old for that stuff 
marsh wind
for now I need the first one lol
bold glacier
first step is the hardest!
marsh wind
yeah I noticed 😉
opal perch
Lossberg, dont you have a phd? is it that hard to find a job with a phd? I thought ocmpanies will do anything for a good phd grad
@marsh wind
proper aurora
I'm just starting out on python so just a quick query - is python often used in the world of business analytics?
shut geyser
it is used, not sure if it's the norm yet
marsh wind
@opal perch not in France apparently
marsh wind
am not asking stellar salary 😛
@shut geyser lol you changed my name an I only now realized you are same guy as ColdEmber
shut geyser
yeah
it's a joke because i mostly acts as a rubber duck when i try to help someone :p
gilded valley
What was the BS reason they gave?
gilded valley
Yeah, that does sound incredibly BS
torpid bolt
Did you suffer from analysis paralysis in the interview?
torpid bolt
Yeah, that's very weird then
shut geyser
I'll ask HR more feedback
Because i don't really get it
They could have seen my cv/projects
torpid bolt
Do you think it could be code for lack of interpersonal skills? Was there friction in the interactions?
shut geyser
Nah i'm usually okay
I think it's become i come from biology side and did scientific stuff
Like data visualisation and what not
And they don't want an academic
torpid bolt
It's possible they think an academic would be too curious about causes to think about solutions
mystic summit
oof my colleague said I shouldn't be doing devops but development.
instead of being a sysadmin/operations.
I do have a easier time with code, wrapping my head around it and stuff
But I don't like the development industry. Though I might have a warped idea of it
what should I do?
shut geyser
@vapid jay yeah maybe, i just don't like that, i don't get feedback like "you're not enough this: work on this "
torpid bolt
I believe there are a lot of variation in the industry, in term of experience, so depending on what bothers you, chances are you are not alone and some companies are organised to avoid these problems, of course, it might mean a smaller set of companies you want to work for, but still worth having a look.
torpid bolt
I know a few people who funded their companies in a way governance is shared among everybody, there is no ”boss”.
mystic summit
Nor would I switch teams, we have a dev team in our devops team
torpid bolt
Oh ok
mystic summit
it's just a matter of the work
Like, it sounds dull.
Though, to be fair, I'm not doing much as a devops cause I don't know shit
and I wish I had stuff to do like a dev, at least I would have something to work day after day
just...no webdev. Nah. Nope. Never.
torpid bolt
Well, dull definitely depends on how you want to work, there are definitly cowboys/ninja/rockstar wannabees that will make your life more exciting, but you might quickly grow tired of that.
mystic summit
not like that
I meant dull as in, doing stuff of no importance
Like...hm...
"oh yeah I made a loading bar"
or some stuff like that
torpid bolt
I don't think that's very true, i agree that sometime you spend half a day aligning two blocks, but it's more frustrating than dull. Things are often harder than they should.
mystic summit
Yeah, but I wouldn't like to do webdev either
torpid bolt
But you can do backend dev and just with different problems than that.
mystic summit
I like those problems more
torpid bolt
There is also quite some non web dev.
torpid bolt
Well, i'm sure they can make use of that, that's legitimate and valuable dev work.
mystic summit
idk! I'll have to ask my team leader
we have a guy that works with Go and idk, sounds cool
gilded valley
Everyone I've spoken to who writes Go, loves Go
gilded valley
Its definitely not a Rust wannabe
Its much more oriented around web stuff
and microservices
gilded valley
I don't think its even trying to replace C
sorry if I'm a Dumbo
dry sapphire
I'm doing webdev now for my own startup (separate from my job) because I have to
it's...fairly frustrating...because JS and frontend work specifically is pretty different from Python and what I normally do
but it's a fun challenge
mystic summit
🤔
So I wasn't completely off
Watch me learn haskell and have no use for it at all
Because everyone wants java and ooof I don't want it
gilded valley
Yeah. I was mistaken in my understanding of the goals of Golang, it definitely aims to replace C in a lot of contexts
torpid bolt
what's important is not so much the amount of people who are in demand of a skill, but the ratio between offer and demand, very few people know haskell, and very few people ask for it, so i don't know if it's a better deal than java, but scala might be a better middle ground, i've seen it used in multiple companies i interviewed for, it seems to pay well, and the community is relatively small afaik
vapid jay
i fail to see how golang is a rust wannabe, seeing as rust came after golang
fwiw, I write go, and I really enjoy it
gilded valley
Do you write it in the context of pen testing?
vapid jay
aye, several of my tools are written in go
I alternate between go and python for the most of my toolkit
torpid bolt
go is popular in devops, if you do docker/kubernetes, you basically breath it as i understand it
gilded valley
That's interesting. I wouldn't have expected it to be used there, but I guess it makes a lot of sense
mystic summit
and python
torpid bolt
@vapid jay opinions about error handling in go? not to bothersome compared to python exceptions?
vapid jay
it's... different, but the fact that everything returns an error value can be pretty convenient at times
i think it's programmatically often even nicer than the try/except model
mystic summit
I mean isn't try/catch the go to for error handling
?
that's what I've learned in school
vapid jay
no, the idiom is that functions return their return value and nil OR nil and an error type
something like so:
val, err := myFunction( args... );
if err != nil {
// handle error
} else {
// success
}
the else can often be omitted if you safely do whatever you need in the if block
torpid bolt
it does feel like every function call will take 5 lines of boilerplates like this
or at least 3
vapid jay
the err is a special type, includes the error itself
thanksies!
vapid jay
meh
i've been seriously interested in rust for a while now
might have to give it a spin soon
torpid bolt
same, though the recent drama gave me pause, it seems the community is quite immature still
tall vortex
Chances of becoming a programmer if starting at 26 years old?
I've been obsessed for the last 3 months.
gilded valley
How easy/difficult depends on a lot of factors. But I'm pretty sure it should be possible
tall vortex
Would you advise pursuing an open university qualification whilst I work my fulltime job?
Or just 'get gud' and develop a portfolio?
torpid bolt
i can't answer with precise odds, but it's been done, and i don't see reasons it couldn't be done again, i'm pretty sure it's easier it ever was
tall vortex
Well those are very welcome words. Great.
gilded valley
What is your current job? Do you have a degree already?
tall vortex
No, currently I dig and fix clean water pipes.
I'm pursuing some maths a-levels right now.
torpid bolt
there are various ways to learn, practice is important, but you certainly want to have some structured source of knowledge to guide you, and these open university are certainly a good starting point
gilded valley
I'm not entirely sure how valuable a maths a-level is specifically for becoming a programmer. But I think if I was in your situation, I'd be leaning towards an Open University degree
tall vortex
It's more of a hobby thing because I kind of enjoy it.
gilded valley
Or possibly trying to swittch to part time work and pursuing a full time degree
tall vortex
But yes, I'd be willing to drop it if I have to prioritise programming.
gilded valley
No idea how funding works with that though
tall vortex
Ah thanks, didn't consider that an option.
Would computer science be the qualification I'd need?
gilded valley
Computer Science, Computing, Software Engineering, and probably some other degree titles can all lead to programming jobs
If you aren't 100% set, then just keeping at it from a hobbyist perspective is probably a good idea for a while at least. And possibly trying to meet some software engineers through local groups or something might give you a better idea
tall vortex
I developed a pathetic application to calculate some basic formulas for my work. This got me in touch with some of the data science folks in the company.
I'm going to go pay them a visit when I feel like I can make the most of the experience.
gilded valley
Being able to move into programming within your current company - if its an option - is probably the easiest path open to you
tall vortex
I'm really angling for that at the moment.
It's a case of developing a good relationship with them now.
The only strategy I can think of is being able to input something of value. They let slip that they've just started running their forecasts through visual studio machine learning and found it a bit less accurate than their current method.
I'm wondering if I could possibly produce something worthwhile in that direction for now, when I have enough information.
gilded valley
In the pins there is a guy who went from 0 CS knowledge, to being employed as a software developer in about a year. He's also active on this Discord occaasionally, in the Reddit post he says he's nearly 30, so it is 100% possible to move into software engineering/programming from your position
limber rampart
don't even worry about starting at 26, you've got plenty of time
tall vortex
I'll check it out, both of you have been very conscientious and helpful. Much appreciated.
fathom hollow
any jobs board in this sv?
marsh wind
sv?
pure basin
avoiding drama, i guess?
pseudo plinth
Would computer science be the qualification I'd need?
@tall vortex I know most if not all Comp Sci undergraduate degrees want Maths and Further Maths A Levels
If that's the route you want to pursue
gilded valley
I don't think that was at all what he was asking
pseudo plinth
No no of course, I'm just mentioning that
If he's going down that route I would recommend Maths & Further Maths
because compared to any Maths you're taught at university, Maths & FM A Levels are a joke (in terms of difficulty)
gilded valley
Generally if you're entering university not directly from further education, you do a foundation year. And thats the standard for the OU
pseudo plinth
ou?
gilded valley
Open University
pseudo plinth
ah I see
well, I didn't know he's just open to OU
Also worth mentioning
In the UK (idk where he's from) there's a few places offering training programmes costing like £1k which have partners in industry, so you have a job guaranteed if you "graduate" (ie complete training). If not, you get your money back
I don't know about how credible those programmes are, but just in case you weren't aware of that information
dry sapphire
does anyone have experience with getting into a "good" university for a CS Masters?
specifically, what are some things I should be able to do
proper aurora
Would maths be absolutely necessary if you wanted to study business/data analytics?
zenith inlet
@proper aurora yes
if you want to do analytics of any sort, you're going to have to learn stats one way or another
lethal plaza
Will a business look for people from particular university's?
For a programming job*
Let me rephrase will they not hire someone if they went to a lesser known university
pure basin
they will certainly prefer MIT/Stanford/Harvard graduates than Univ of Madagascar
or avoiding those ivy leagues graduates if they're small companies, i suppose
dry sapphire
how hard is it to get into, say, MIT CS Masters?
(not in terms of percentage of applicants that get accepted...more like...is it important to have published papers?)
coral beacon
did you just graduate or youre in the job market already?
dry sapphire
been working for a bit under 2 years
coral beacon
ik a friend who finished his grad degree in math in 2 years with tons of researches and then got grad offer from both stanford and princeton
so ig its really about your interests
and research
dry sapphire
the main problem I see is that all my achievements are in industry
I have more or less no research achievements
coral beacon
yeah, thats also a good thing
like i know companies legit send people to prestigious grad school
if they have great desire to go deeper into researching
again
im not a grad student
dry sapphire
I wanna get into DL research, and I think I more or less have both the necessary mathematical/programming skills...but I don't have certifications or independent research...so my main worry is actually getting in
coral beacon
or interested in grad, just what ive learned from friend and the industry
my friend was so scared of not getting into a good grad school because its a huge difference when u can work with some of the brightest minds in the world
through prestigious colleges
thats why he spent so much time doing research
but i really dont know much about non research applicants
tall vortex
@pseudo plinth Thanks for the input, I'm not against completing my maths a-levels and further maths, it's just this would obviously set me back 2 years. I'm interested in weighing up the merits of doing that vs. starting an open university course and learning statistics and probability as and when it turns up.
I'm never going to woo anyone over with an ou completion so I'm going to have to rely on building a cool portfolio. I believe this is my best chance, which means to a certain extent I'll have to do a lot of independent work. However, if you guys think that actually what is best is to pursue the academic system and stay within their structure of work, I will definitely make that my goal instead.
pseudo plinth
I believe that you can do 3 A Levels in 1 year
As I have friends who did that
Specifically, people who got kicked out of their schools after failing their first year of A-Levels, then joined a small private college which offered this thing called "1 year intensive"
So if you're very determined, it would set you back a year
tall vortex
Currently I couldn't keep up with rent aswell.
pseudo plinth
I would say the traditional technique of getting into a "good" university, getting an internship and then a job takes longer but I feel like it's got a higher likelihood of landing a job
tall vortex
Understood, thank you for your input.
pseudo plinth
Especially as certain industries where you could work as a sw developer or otherwise (think Finance) are quite conservative
But I mean, it's just about getting your first break
I'm not highly experienced though, I'm just an undergraduate university student
Currently I couldn't keep up with rent aswell.
@tall vortex I'm sorry to hear that
tall vortex
@pseudo plinth Ah ha no worries, have much to be thankful for including your kind folks' input.
earnest beacon
maybe get a part time job and study at open university @tall vortex
then on weekends you can build your portfolio
or work on Saturday and build your portfolio on Sunday
You could always do part time work then ask some places to do work experience too
if you impress them during work experience you can get offered full time work
or suggest you are interested in a full time position if any are available
The thing is there is no shortage of job positions in development
if you have a good portfolio and put it online ppl will email you all the time with offers
tall vortex
That's great. Currently I'm working until 5pm and I study from 6:30-11pm, I can do all weekend all day too.
Do you think I can manage with a full time job? Secondly, and lastly, I got in touch with data scientists at the company I work for.
They, program in r and have just started experimented with machine learning
earnest beacon
What do you mean by manage for a full time job?
tall vortex
They have invited me round the headquarters to have a look, how can I impress them?
earnest beacon
manage with*
tall vortex
Manage an OU course, for example
earnest beacon
Just read up as much as you can before you go there
and be very social and not scared to be yourself
tall vortex
That will be statistics and probabilities too right?
earnest beacon
people like when you have a personality no matter what it is
Yeh probably
you might be able to manage an OU course too
just depends how long your commute is into work
and how hard your work ethic is
I wake up at 6am for work and get back at 8pm
and for me thats as much as I can do i cant study on top
but part of my contract is flexible hours where I can study at OU and get paid for it but I dont think I will do that, maybe but not sure
tall vortex
Wait so you're doing an OU course as we speak?
earnest beacon
Nope but its something im considering doing too
Im doing full time work as a Junior Developer
with a good salary, pension money and the flexi time thing (which means I can do OU and get paid as if im working)
tall vortex
So, if I may, what does the completion of the OU course represent for you when you are already working in the field?
Why not for example, complete a higher workload and spend time trying to pry for the Senior Dev role?
earnest beacon
Exactly thats what Im thinking is do I really need it
tall vortex
Ah understood.
earnest beacon
and the company I work at only has 3 developers
theres 1 person higher than me and lower than my boss
and these people dont stay at the company for very long but have huge salaries
so im just going to work hard and stay and i think in 5+ years realistically I can be on 5* my current salary
I did also go to Bath university for a year doing Computer Science
then I dropped out cos of anxiety problems
so if I did an OU I would look to see if I could get credits for my 1st year at uni
im 21
tall vortex
That's awesome!
earnest beacon
Yeh i got very fortunate to be fair
tall vortex
Well you also have overcome some meaningful experiences, not just luck!
earnest beacon
True yeah i had really bad anxiety 1 or 2 years ago
so I am happy that I managed to get past it
Its a mixture of luck and hard work
I got lucky in that my Dad has a friend who is really high up at the company I now work at
he offered me a weeks work experience, no guarantees or anything
and because i put in the hard work programming for the past few years and getting good enough grades at school I impressed them in that week
and got a job offer 2 days later
onyx sluice
Has anyone gone through the Open University - Or any other UK online degree? How was the experience in terms of learning quality?
gilded valley
Normal office hours are 9:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., Monday to Friday, with a one-hour lunch break. However, in view of the nature of your role you will be required to work whatever hours are necessary for the effective performance of your duties. This may include working on weekends and public holidays. The Company reserves the right to extend or amend normal hours of work to meet operational requirements.
Is this a normal clause for a contract?
in view of the nature of your role you will be required to work whatever hours are necessary for the effective performance of your duties
Specifically that bit
gilded valley
Data Insights Unit Internship Programme
indigo sleet
Well I'll put it this way
gilded valley
Its only 8 weeks long, but its full time and salaried
indigo sleet
If you can't think of a reason for them to call you at night
Switch off your phone
Haha
high coyote
It's the kind of clause where probably there are many companies using it in a reasonable way (just as a "you do have some responsibility outside office hours but only in exceptional circumstances" clause), and a small number hugely abusing it
gilded valley
Thats good to know. Thanks
high coyote
If you have any contact with people from the company, or any reputation to judge it by, that would be a good place to look for red flags
I would have thought if they do something bad, you might hear about it that way
gilded valley
Well, they're an asset management company, and I haven't really heard anything except bad stuff about the industry as a whole. But from what I can gather, the company is slightly better than average
high coyote
I might also think that an 8 week internship is probably safe even in the worst case - making new interns hang around at the weekend won't speed anything up :<
But maybe that's naive
tacit frigate
I'm seeing a lot of jobs with Flask/Python in my area. What are some good portfolio builders I could aim to make? I made my own power usage statistic generator with login/authentication and am looking for some ideas and how to go further.
pure basin
do API endpoints
tacit frigate
I'm not sure what that is but I'll start with some googlin
shadow moss
jbr93, look at FASTAPI, for that Power Usage Statistic Generator you built, make endpoint so other peole can request it
torpid bolt
i did go through the fastapi doc recently, and i'm very keen on using it on a project i had essentially shelved, as it looks like it'll make it way easier, it makes flask look complicated 😬
shadow moss
I just used it at work
glad herald
how do you change wallpapers in windows 10 with python
torpid bolt
wrong channel
tacit frigate
Thanks Rabbit!
I was curious, any good examples out there of a solid technical CV?
left escarp
If ur looking for the format, use europass website https://europass.cedefop.europa.eu/editors/en/cv/compose
@tacit frigate
left escarp
Does this letter qualify as a "statement of purpose" or "motivation letter" ?(applying for comp sci)
gilded valley
For what countries are you applying to university in? India?
left escarp
Netherlands
gilded valley
It seems pretty similar to a personal statement which is the UK equivalent I assume
left escarp
what am I missing
torpid bolt
till -> until? (till seems informal, compared to the previous sentences)
left escarp
oki
gilded valley
Theres a few little things like that that I think could be changed. If you enable commenting, I can comment them inline for you
torpid bolt
"dint die" i think you meant "didn't die" but it seems it could be worded better, "didn't diminish" or something else
left escarp
oki
torpid bolt
(i've not seen "learnt" in some time, it seems "learned" is getting more common, but it's not incorrect, not sure what native english speakers would say about this one, i guess it depends where you are from)
gilded valley
I have no idea which is technically correct, but I'd default to "learned"
left escarp
okay
left escarp
😅
indigo sleet
so "learnt" could be disambiguation
torpid bolt
also you could probably use a few alternative ways to express that "got familiar with" or "taught myself" etc, to repeat the "learnt/learned" less often.
left escarp
okay
torpid bolt
anyway, that's a nice recap about what you achived up to now, and congrats on all that, you might want to to talk about about the aspects of programming that interest you, beyond specific technologies, if you have some ideas about that, but if not yet that's fine.
left escarp
Can i include IOT?
gilded valley
"Taught myself" sounds a lot more active than "learned"
torpid bolt
the wording can certainly be improved in a few places, but it gets the message accross.
it does seem a lot of that was self learning, so i think "taught myself" would be appropriate in some places.
(but same, avoid repetitions)
left escarp
even software engeneers work with IOT, right? like the programming part
inner wrenBOT
Hey @left escarp!
gilded valley
I'd be careful of doxxing yourself by uploading your CV. Its probably ok with this letter because it only includes your name and a few personal details, but a CV will probably contain a fair bit more info
left escarp
thank you @gilded valley @torpid bolt and @indigo sleet for reviewing my letter 🙂
vapid jay
how much money does a programmer work at an advanced level?
gilded valley
It depends on too many factors to be able to give a solid answer
vapid jay
and is a degree required for job recruitment?
or if you get a diploma of one year and you're pretty good at what you do will they accept you?
lets assume that im an advanced programmer after 4 years and i have a diploma in computer science
will i be able to secure a job for some time?
hasty apex
Degree is definitly not required to work but having the sort of knowledge a degree gets you will probably get you further.
If you don't have a degree it probably helps to have an active github acount.
fluid thicket
@vapid jay what diploma is it
vapid jay
diploma in computing
fluid thicket
but issued by who
vapid jay
uni of melbourne
fluid thicket
and it takes 1 year to complete?
wanton anchor
i need your guys advice @torpid bolt @primal tendon
I have to decide between learning backend or frontend.
Im gonna sell some products online using shopify and want to use either of the two ^ to make my site look more professional and get higher conversion rates
what do you advice me to learn (first)?
primal tendon
I preferred backend to frontend pretty much all the time, but you do you.
Not sure what kind of advice do you need.
If I were you, I would look into some library like django / flask if your server is going to be synchronous, and aiohttp.web for async stuff (backend). For frontend, you should look into JS and HTML / CSS.
@wanton anchor
pure basin
Im gonna sell some products online using shopify
if that's the priority then learning how shopify can help your store is the goal, not picking between backend/frontend?
wanton anchor
backend/frontend can further improve the store
like i can add custom code and stuff
@primal tendon can i use django for frontend too?
pure basin
further improve sure, if it's allowed by shopify, that's the thing
torpid bolt
Not much to add to that, i know what shopify does, but never used it, no idea what you can do with back or front with it specificaly.
opaque silo
any phd researchers vs back-end developers here? seriously considering two career paths and would like to know if anyone has experience, youtube videos will never do justice lool
limber rampart
It's best to just ask your question, people rarely sign up to answer a question before reading it
opaque silo
alright, well I recently gradauted, last summer, in econ, & hated it, learning python has given me the confirmation that I want to continue down this road
Now, Im deciding to narrow down my vision, part of me wants to go into general AI, particularly conciousness and do my own research with a phd, which would require me apply to take a masters this year
And another part of me is considering web development, and continue self-teaching, due to the practicality and opportunities to put ideas into action
So i was just wondering if anyone here could give me their take on it, particularly if they have first-hand experience or knowledge about either career
high coyote
I would be a litle cautious about "go into general AI". I suspect that serious consciousness-related research is quite rare, it isn't even clear to me if such a thing would be programming, depending on what you mean by it
opaque silo
Yh thats a good point, because Im not clear on what specific field that would particularly be, but its something that has always fascinated me
high coyote
It's fascinating for sure, but I'd be concerned that the exposure you've had to it may be a long way from the reality of research