I'm a graduate student in statistics trying to put together a resume for internships but I have no experience in anything remotely related to data science so I'm not sure what I can do besides put my github
#career-advice
sharp yew
I hope so!
rare sand
@sharp yew yes you should, in my opinion.
I've got no real formal education at all, but I have about a dozen e-learning diplomas related to programming and it got me through some interviews. it's better than nothing.
some prospective employers will disregard it but I doubt anyone will hold it against you
sharp yew
You think that + github projects+ ms degree will get my foot in the door?
rare sand
it depends on the github
and the door.
but potentially, yes.
provided the github has some meat on it and the prospective employer is open to hiring people without specific degrees, then yes.
sharp yew
Yea i got a couple of things that im gonna put on it over the next month
rare sand
you might at least get yourself a tough technical interview or some homework to demonstrate your skill, and if you make it through that alive, you might just be offered something.
that's been my experience, anyway
sharp yew
That would be amazing
rare sand
but your mileage may vary. it depends where you are, who you apply to, etcetera.
it's very hard to make any promises.
sharp yew
Nyc
rare sand
I've heard nyc can be kind of brutal.
rare sand
as in quite strict in their minimum requirements
talk to @unreal linden if you get a chance, he's got first hand knowledge of this.
I'm in Norway and know practically nothing about new york
sharp yew
Ok thanks
rare sand
sounds 👌
sharp yew
Gnite lemon thanks again
rare sand
night dude.
wanton rivet
@rare sand what got you your first coding job?
rare sand
I applied to a lot of places and one of them had a lot of self-taught programmers working there, so they decided to give me a chance in spite of my lack of education. It was at the other side of the country, but I flew over and did a tough technical interview with lots of whiteboarding and questions and I guess I did okay. At that point I had many years of experience from IT (especially ops) and had been using Python to automate stuff in those jobs, and I'd gotten a lot of certs off coursera and edx, I was involved in this community so I had lots of open source on my github..
wanton rivet
im doing cs50 atm
rare sand
they were still unsure, so they asked me to go home and write a URL shortener in Py3 with Flask, PostgreSQL,...
and get it hosted somewhere so I could just link them. and send them the code, as well as a "plan for how to scale it to millions of users"
wanton rivet
do you think onepersonal project and a bunch of websites will get my foot in the door for a software dev
also should i read the coding interview books before i start applying ?
rare sand
I couldn't tell you. maybe, maybe not.
persistence will get your foot in the door.
apply to a lot of stuff. keep learning, keep reading books, doing courses, until you get what you want.
wanton rivet
what courses and books did you learn the most from
rare sand
!resources all my favorites are in here
inner wrenBOT
rare sand
fluent python and effective python are two of my favorite books for intermediates
wanton rivet
what would you says intermediate ?
vapid jay
Understands concepts, can produce results on their own without handholding, but still much room for improvement imo
I think the biggest difference between beginner and intermediate in anything is the separation from needing constant help on fundamentals
rare sand
yes
neon needle
The python general channel pinned messages are great also @wanton rivet
Been using them
I think they overlap with resources tho
Fundamentals is like knowing the syntax like the back of ur hand imo
Need a good foundation to build a great structure
vapid jay
It's knowing them and knowing when it makes sense to use which effectively
It's more complicated but this is probably more #python-discussion now
craggy wave
I think we're all basically stating the same thing in different words. For me, it means being comfortable enough with the syntax that you don't have to really think about it when writing code; having a general idea of how Python works (assignment never copies data is one of those important realizations); having a framework large enough to be able to understand documentation (if the docs are up to standard) without too much hassle or scaffolding from other resources; and having a general idea of the typical built-ins that are available (all in addition to general programming skills). That said, I'd consider myself an intermediate at best, so I'm not sure if I can really judge what it means to be intermediate.
You're probably right, @vapid jay. We're getting outside of the scope of this channel.
vapid jay
It's good to shy from being more than intermediate. If you say you're an expert, you'll be treated as such and people won't have a reason to not make you feel dumb (in scope of careers for this channel 😏) but yes
We interviewed 3-4 people in recent months that said they were 7-9/10 on python and come in and don't know data types
craggy wave
It's easy to overestimate yourself, but the more I learn about Python, the more I realize I don't know anything.
The most important part of learning programming as a practical skill is that you get experience with the tools you're using. That takes time and effort and only then will you truly learn how to use them.
red nebula
data types as in like floats, ints?
vapid jay
I think we asked about structures like dicts and lists and he was lost
Ping me in #python-discussion if you wanna talk more though. I think our overlords are getting antsy
craggy wave
I think it's an interesting topic, since it touches on questions you may get in an interview
And what kind of expectations you create when stating your skill level
vapid jay
If you insist 
vast shoal
yeah, this is still on topic
vapid jay
I wish more companies used intermediate as a title. I'm seeing a lot of either senior or entry level right now and in my company, that's the difference of fresh to industry and 8+ years
With flexibility of course but still
hardy ferry
Is junior same as entry level? Or is there a differentiation there?
marsh wind
From what I seen junior, entry and associate sometimes are used interchangeably
But it seems to depend on country and industry
Like in one job listing it can require 3+ years experience and in other 6-12 moths internship, with same positon name
vast shoal
I tend to use "junior" as a blanket term for any developer with less experience
I think "entry" usually means first job
neon needle
is datacamp free
most say 3+ years of experience or equivalent meaning like github projects and what not
red nebula
how would you know what type of github projects equate to 3 years of experience
neon needle
i wouldn't try to figure out how it equates more focus on what would i need to show to impress a company that even if i dont have a degree i know i can add value to the company and am worthy of getting an interview
that's obviously discussed a lot here
mental aurora
Junior jobs are a good way to get paid less, that's why I would avoid them if you've had experience already
imo
turbid prism
Hey guys so i have an online assessment in hackerrank
How do you deal with test cases where outputs are hidden
gilded valley
Consider Edge cases
ionic cargo
I don't really no where to put this but in terms of python in university/college, what do you need to know (a data analyst for say but can be more general)? A list would be nice so I can start learning!
Also any good youtubers in terms of learning about the career paths of python etc.]
tame heath
Hey I am just curious, how do you guys find people who are interested in python developers?
hushed kestrel
I have people who need hardware testers and a surprisingly large amount of HW testing is done in python
I want to know about other people's experiences. I had a coding interview (Not a whiteboard session) Where they asked me to complete a game of connect four while also coding in test cases that complies with their already built code. (It involved checking for possible win states, running the game and lots of other things) All to be done in like, 45 minutes? It seems a bit much for just the interview
vapid jay
@tame heath you can search up 'python' on indeed.com
How'd I land an internship, if I'm not even in the 10th grade?
I got a certificate from a college algebra course and a Django full stack course
neon needle
@vapid jay location? And what site did u do it on?
vapid jay
Sydney and indeed.com
It's a paid internship and they'll probably know that I am a minor due to the lack of tertiary qualifications and education
@neon needle
neon needle
No what site did u get the certification on or did u do that irl?
shy pollen
@vapid jay Sounds legal..
hushed kestrel
@vapid jay If it is paying more than minimum wage, it's probably very good looking on a college application that you have internships as a programmer at one or multiple places over the course of a few years
It speaks pretty heavily to your personal qualifications to exceed as well as build up reallife knowledge/experience that will better inform your education if you decide to go into the field.
Having extra cash to afford cars/gas/go on dates + having social status for having a non shitty job at coldstone is gucci. It also depends on your course load
vapid jay
@shy pollen Sadly My message got removed whitout a warning.
runic heath
im getting interviews but dont make it pass the tech screening i think i do okay on the code challenges
or maybe mess up on the interviewing part should maybe pracitce more
mint citrus
@runic heath do you ask for feedback after the interview?
sometimes they give it and it can help point out where you fail. or if someone would do a mock interview with you and then tell you where you are failing
sharp yew
I'm trying to put together a resume for data science internships w/ no previous experience
should I list the various models I know how to use ? Like Linear/logistic regressions, decisions trees, K nearest neighbors , Linear discriminant analysis.
vapid jay
has anybody here ever withdrawn from a class
i am taking Data Structures and Algorithms with Java and I am not doing so well. I think it might be better to just drop the class and get a W to save my GPA rather than pass with a C or C+
i am worried that when i apply for internships I will not get considered because of my low mark in the class
mint citrus
if you pass, it doesnt matter
vapid jay
it does tho
if i get a C nobody will want me for an internship
@mint citrus
i have no prior experience
mint citrus
you can also do internships by just personal projects you do
vapid jay
but i think i need to withdraw. my mental health is deteriorating very severely
mint citrus
thats how I got my first internship. and my GPA was pretty bad
vapid jay
did u get paid?
i feel like i'll never be good enough to get a job
everybody i talk to on discord seems to be so obsessed with coding and i'm worried that my lack of passion will kill my chances
vapid jay
i do like coding and problem solving, i think it can be frustrating but fun. but honestly i just want to die rn
i wake up everyday and it takes so much effort to get out of bed
not because i'm sleepy
mint citrus
I landed a job shortly after the intership. it wasnt great but it was a job nonetheless
vapid jay
but because nothing seems worth doing anymore
mint citrus
That would be other issues which I dont think I can help you with
vapid jay
it's ok
i am just wondering how bad it is to get a W on ur transcript
i want to graduate with a high GPA to impress employers
in case i graduate without experience
vapid jay
i really want to
mint citrus
so many graduate with 0 experience and it makes it hard
vapid jay
but i live in Boston
and there are a significant number of universities here
like a really REALLY high amount
there's so many CS majors
pulsar drum
I've gotten the impression from many that employers don't really care about your GPA
mint citrus
@pulsar drum depends on the employer really
if you have personal projects or the such to back up your credentials thats best
after uni, GPA doesnt really mater. you got the degree
vapid jay
but i do want to graduate with a strong understanding of data structure and algorithms
i have found a lot of internships want a transcript
at least here in Boston
i applied to Google for an internship (I know i won't get it but i wanted to say i tried) and they wanted a transcript
mint citrus
well send it anyways. really if you can explain why you got the grade
or show something to back up your credibility that should be fine
but you have to do something extra if you want to get an internship.
do something that makes you stand out.
vapid jay
@neon needle got it online
hushed kestrel
If there are professional coders, how often do you get the outline of functions from your team that you are expected to comply with arguments + return statements in a standard form ?
hushed kestrel
UHHH like
I got a interview coding challenge thing
lemme paste what I was given
mental aurora
ok, going to grab a drink
mental aurora
you mean like the comment?
mental aurora
well it never comes through like that for me
it's more like "we need this, how long will it take"
hushed kestrel
Yeah, same..
craggy wave
There's probably always a prevalent in a codebase and some use autodoc tools that require a certain formatting to work. However, that comment there is located a bit weirdly, since it will not be recognized as a docstring with that statement before it.
mental aurora
My interpretation of the question is how often is new work delivered in the form of clear and concise business logic that can be directly translated into code
hushed kestrel
That seems like a pretty good interpretation of my terrible abuse of the English language
I am not sure about business logic, but I am sure on what you mean
craggy wave
Oh, then I can't answer you. I'm not a professional coder, although I do code a lot professionally.
mental aurora
business logic is the reason for the season
hushed kestrel
🤔 @craggy wave
Oh- I didn't know business logic was an actual term
lemme look it up.
craggy wave
I work in academics, a large part of research is coding and more so in my field.
mental aurora
My job title isn't swe or anything development related.
But I use python regularly, mostly for flask
torpid bolt
the code at my job has some partial standardized documentation like this, i don't find it to be the most useful thing to have, and it can easily fall out of sync with the actual code
craggy wave
I don't use Python at all or rather very rarely at work. Most of the things I do are either in C++ or R.
hushed kestrel
Oh yeah, your code is a series of one off and refracturing. Sure.
torpid bolt
using a recent version of python that allows to define types in the signature and check it with mypy or a similar tool seems a lot more useful
though i didn't have a lot of opportunity to work with that, and i'm not totally in love with the equivalent service provided by flow for js code, but if you are into these things, at least this one is easier to check and maintain
the docstring should rather describe the semantics of every arguments, i.e, what they mean and how they work
hushed kestrel
I thought comments are for that
and docstrings talk about the purpose behind functions
(I am not good at this. )
torpid bolt
comments are for the people reading your code, docstrings are for the people using your code
mental aurora
@hushed kestrel
Cunningham's Law states "the best way to get the right answer on the internet is not to ask a question; it's to post the wrong answer."
re: I am not good at this
don't worry, most people aren't, just ride it out and wait for someone to tell you you're wrong
torpid bolt
this is a bit offtopic imho btw
mental aurora
disagree.. the question was regarding how work is requested
torpid bolt
not completly sure, if you are asking specificaly for the workplace, then ok
but here is for careers, and i'm not sure the distinction between work and non-work code is very relevant here
hushed kestrel
Nono, it's not a confidence thing, it's a statement of my comfortability with the current topic that should inform what level of advice I am seeking. ❤ but ty.
@torpid bolt I was given a coding challenge as apart of an interview. I was wondering how common practice this is and if I should be afraid that I am going to be hand held/micromanaged working for this company, or if it is just a one-off for the coding challenge
Hand holding isn't the right term.
torpid bolt
oh now re reading the initial question and understanding it better
well, it's not common in my experience, but it's useful to define the interface of functions so other people can work on other parts of the program by programing against this interface, assuming it work, and when you put your code together, in the magical world of flawless coding, it'll work
but in an interview/test, it's more common
heck, i did today an interview for a senior dev position where i not only had such interfaces, but also some support classes coded, and a test suite to pass
i don't expect this to be representative of how the work would go at this place, they are rather testing how comfortable i'm with all the concepts, and adapting to existing code, getting as much unuseful barriers out of the way
hushed kestrel
My coding challenge was the same thing more or less. They wanted me to fix a connect four program by adding pieces to the game state, creating conditionals to check for a win in a very specific way, and create a test suite in under 45 minutes or something
And that was with no prep about the code that I was going to modify
torpid bolt
hm, having to code the test suite is less nice, though it's good to test the dev's hability to write one, in 45mn it can be quite stressful
i had one hour, and only had to make the suite pass, and i was warned that i wasn't expected to even get them all
(and i didn't, though i was really not helped that i was deving in a very different env than what i'm used to, including a different keyboard layout)
anyway, afk now 🙂
hushed kestrel
Haha. That's horrible
marsh wind
@craggy wave what kind of academic work you do?
craggy wave
Statistics
torpid bolt
oh my, being a statistician must be even worse than a computer scientist, seeing everyone pretty much butcher the most basic notions of everything at every opportunity, what a nightmare 😆
hushed kestrel
Hmm I don't know. I work in hardware testing, i think statistics is pretty relevant for a lot of things.
Not just applying a ML and calling it close 😛
I'd love to learn how to use bayesian statistics to update priors and apply that to business decisions
torpid bolt
oh it is, i'm pretty sure statistics shaped the whole 19th and 20th century technology advances.
hushed kestrel
Depends on what you mean.
I don't know how much I buy into any particular mythos placed on top of history as an explanation for why things happen
But that is like, a really weird point to make
what I just said
torpid bolt
i mean, you can't really do any serious science and/or industry without the various kind of averages, and standard deviations, and then more advanced tools
i'm not a statistician by any mean, but i believe the systematic application of them to all fields of knowledge has been a great discovery accelerator
craggy wave
Hmm, it depends a bit on what you're doing. I don't really apply statistics a lot, but rather work on developing new versions of models of applying something like memetic/hybrid evolutionary/genetic algorithms to tune parameters or starting configurations of models.
vapid jay
For those who are freelancing, how do they find a specific niche to narrow down to? I've gotten pretty good at Django and Flask, and am just not sure what metrics people use to decide what their specialization will be. Thank you.
neon needle
Is freelancing even real pretty sure it’s all outsourced to India and China
Better off doing open source projects till ur good enough to get a 9 to 5
raven mica
@neon needle I know a guy who does freelance web dev for local clients (in the US). I think there are far more people who would like to do it than there is demand, but it's not impossible for the right person either.
hushed kestrel
Assuming you have the freelancing skillset
There is a huge amount of value in being a US based freelancer
Language issues aside, being able to sue your freelancer / vice versa is a huge boon . If they are local, you can have actual conversations with them
There are lots of companies like restaurants that don't have websites, yelp pages, promotional material, lots of other things. You can offer your value to solve some of these problems for them + have them subscribe to you to maintain that value for like, 20-50 $ a month easy
then you build up a customer base
It's only going to be a 30-70k job
But it builds you out pretty fast
And if you manage to build up 20 subscribers then you could theoretically sell your company for something like 20k
15-30?
I don't know
neon needle
ya
if u wanna seek those companies out and provide a service at a reasonable rate problem is most will use squarespace or something that's like basically no money
so i dont know how realistic that
you would need to target businesses that would want to spend extra money to impress people with the website and most i don't think care maybe you can figure out a sector that does
seems a bit impractical and a market thats over saturated
hushed kestrel
So
I am incredibly tech oriented and I am garbo at making a website
You aren't providing value by making people feel 'impressed' about a business
You are driving customers into their business which is apart of sales and is incredibly important
You could also provide services to help run their business such as implementing an inventory control systm
neon needle
if u aren't making them feel impressed with a great website then why would they not use something like squarespace thats stupid cheap
why use u
why pay extra money
hushed kestrel
That's a valid question
neon needle
i wouldnt
hushed kestrel
You wouldn't
But you aren't your customers
You are a tech savvy person who discusses programming on a programming discord
You are so far outside the mainstream. https://media.nngroup.com/media/editor/2016/10/20/computer-skill-levels-by-country.png
Most people just don't know how to use a computer, much less buy domains, manage them, setup a website, create powerful content, create ads and track visitors and automate email notifications or setup things like delivery services
So, not only is there a huge tech illiteracy gap that you get to exploit using your highly specialized skill. You will also find that people are not good at managing their time/ resources and don't know how to make proper investments and can't tell obviously what the opportunity costs they are suffering from not having one. They think they can get away without one.
There are also other second, third order effects that driving more customers will have on their business that just by increasing volume without maybe making profit (they will, but lets just say they don't ) their business will improve because of better bulk purchasing
Restaurants are also a business with usually a life cap of 1-3 years. they are incredibly high turnover and so there is always a new fresh batch of people who constantly need your services
neon needle
fair points
if u do that route as a freelancer i think being a really good marketer is just as important as ur web dev skills
vapid jay
which is why I think it would be better to focus on something beyond just some company website
I don't have a specific answer, but something that can utilize some kind of control panel or backend to store information
hushed kestrel
People who've done this don't make a lot of a money typically, again, 30-75k usually per year, and after multiple years they generally still don't make moeny
vapid jay
storing customer records, some tracker of tools and equipment keeping track of their condition, maintenance, etc
hushed kestrel
I don't think 75k /y is real money for programming TBH))
The problem @vapid jay is that you need to find customers who understand the value of that so that they will pay you, but if they understand the value, they'll be busy setting it up themselves unless they are new or something
There is always a niche where you have to seek out the few people who don't know and charge them up the rear for your deluxe services, as long as they don't have the infrastructure to provide those services to themselves, like going after mid sized construction companies
vapid jay
yeah, that is the challenge with this approach
hushed kestrel
Where if someone joins the company and knows excel, they just doubled the technological competence of the company
vapid jay
so the solution could lie in discovering/building a solution for a demographic that would (through research/validation) be interested in it, and then only target that slice of the market.... depth vs breadth
neon needle
i feel like ur time is better spent learning a more valuable coding skill that can get u a 9-5 job making 100k+
just my opinion tho
not worth the trouble
hushed kestrel
It's completely different
100k coding job in 5 years becomes 150k coding job
70k business job in 5 years can be 250 k job
vapid jay
its fine if you haven't read this entire thread, but I said earlier I'm already pretty good with flask and django (templating, ORMs, etc etc). my focus in OP was to find some kind of low hanging fruit to begin to monetize this
hushed kestrel
Being an entrepreneur with business skills + negotiation IMHO >> coding at google.
But it is a lot harder
neon needle
thats not true sinthrill u can learn other things during those 5 years plus movement up the ladder having capital to start your own startup/ company
thats just not true
hushed kestrel
It kinda is
neon needle
and ur 70k job may never become 70k
and it def may not become 250k
infact it probably wont
hushed kestrel
5 years in public/client facing business experience is completely different from coding at google
vapid jay
truthfully, I just want to make 2-3k/mo. that is my primary goal. the sooner the better. and obviously if its more, thats good too
neon needle
im not gonna argue about it i think you are being too positive those are my thoughts
hushed kestrel
I wont grant that taking your fat stacks of money and going out is going to put you at the same level
vapid jay
I've made decent money with ecommerce in the past, I just want something semi-decent to fund this stuff
hushed kestrel
I...................am being too positive
There are super scary numbers outthere about the failure rates of business
neon needle
3k a month? thats awful in the CS sector
vapid jay
I don't intend to brag, but I've already had previous successes as a result of learning about business/marketing for a while
with businesses, that is*
yeah, I know it is
neon needle
ur way better off getting a 65k 9-5 with similar skills
vapid jay
it is a short term goal, and from there it will increase
neon needle
u can do the biz on the side
idk why u wouldnt just get a 9-5 and try to grow something on ur off time
hushed kestrel
That's true advice
neon needle
once its worth it quit
hushed kestrel
It just depends on how you value your time
vapid jay
do you think that's a better route than just going all out with freelancing?
hushed kestrel
And what your runway looks like, ect
hushed kestrel
If you have never done freelancing
I mean
How comfortable are you to losing 10k a month ?
neon needle
ask a mod or admin or helper thats here
vapid jay
life has different seasons... in this phase, I don't mind working 16 hours a day 7 days a week to move myself closer to my goals
no, I appreciate your input
both of you
hushed kestrel
You would lose 10k in opportunity costs a moth probably for 6 months at least if you have no experience and you are doing a very good job
That's not even talking about the effective value of your work
vapid jay
meaning, time required to ramp up my income?
hushed kestrel
When you work full time by yourself what you want is the time where you are mega profitable is going to offset the time which you made 0$$
Most businesses fail, so you'll be buying things and paying for crap while running your business + stuck with recurring costs + not making money you would have in the same time
Success rate for businesses are in the 4-7 %
vapid jay
quite honestly, that last part doesn't discourage me. I'm a hard worker and have determination. my I suppose my main concern is choosing the most efficient route to get to where I want to go.
hushed kestrel
I work in the bay area/startups
read, talk to people, read, and don't put yourself in a position that you are forced to make bad choices (excess debt, liability, whatever)
6 months of backup is good topo
vapid jay
yeah, I think I read that last part from john sonmez's book the other week
are you a software dev for a company out there?
vapid jay
software developer's career guide I think?
hushed kestrel
With a focus on reliability testing
hushed kestrel
5 years
I did my own consultancy for 1.5 years
My older brother also runs a startup
and my dad has been a small business owner for 40 years
vapid jay
I'm sure its nice to be surrounded with ambition like that
hushed kestrel
UHH
vapid jay
lol I'm serious
echo oar
Hey guys, im currently a CSE major, and its time for me to pick a cognate. Does anyone have any recommendations for cognates that go well with CSE degrees, or might make me stand out?
raven mica
@vapid jay FWIW, and I only read a portion of the overall dialog, my two cents is that you are not crazy for wanting to try to make freelance work. You sound like you have realistic goals, along with an understanding of the drawbacks or the compromise it entails. You have very little to lose by trying for a couple years, especially if you're the type of person who will forever wonder "what if I went for it?", and be bothered by that.
My overall life trajectory has been and will to some degree remain much lower than many of the folks who go straight for the strong earnings and keep with it, and I don't love that, BUT I have done a lot of things that I found worthwhile and interesting, I have answered the question "what if I went for it" (not with freelancing but still relevant), and I've gotten to experience an overall larger slice of the human experience throughout. If those kinds of things matter to you, just say fuck it and give it a shot.
vapid jay
@raven mica Thanks for your response.
vapid jay
I don't think there is any right answer for that, provided it doesn't involve drugs or stuff like that
thin light
i'd jus giv them some coding memes
vapid jay
i have a question to ask , so i am 16 year old , yeah i am pretty new , so to start should i go with python or go and learn c first , or do both at same time (i can)
thin light
different languages are better at different things and are often the standard for different applications. So you'd need to do some more reach into the different languages and see wyich one fits you the most. for example, if u wanna design video games, u woint wanna learn the languages that does web site design
vapid jay
i am pretty much in love with python , its so good , <3
but as my teacher once told me that she learned c first to get a basic idea of coding , but i pretty much completed basic level of python(i think) so should i still go and learn c ?
thin light
if i were u, i'd jus master what i am comfortable with before reaching out to uncharted waters
and noone said that python cant give u a basic idea of coding
ember flower
I think by basic she meant low-level programming language, no?
dire cedar
Probably, but I think that is some BS that "old school" programmers sat to make python devs feel less than.
vapid jay
I would stick to one language at a time, much like learning spoken languages
neon needle
wayyyy easier to learn different prog languages once u really know one compared to spoken languages
its not even comparable imo
bad analogy
it be like in cooking once u know the base mixtures and combinations to learn new ones quite quickly
vapid jay
yeah and he said he's new?
learning C and Python at the same time for someone who's new to programming is going to be confusing
hell learning C alone is going to be confusing
solar maple
LOL
red nebula
learning C sounds painful
neon needle
i just thought it was a bad analogy thats all
thin light
well, not the best example and it isnt the worst either. a lot of languages have root in other languages. like if you know english,m learning french is a little easier., if you know Japanese, it's a little easier to learn chinese.
and a lot of english words have latin roots
marsh wind
well French and english ain't good example too 🙂
cause they belong to different groups
french and spanish/italian/portugues - totally
cause last 4 are like C, C++, C# and whatever C like language
pulsar drum
It most definitely is c-like
shy pollen
It's Java-like not c-like
vapid jay
Clever
unkempt ferry
If i'm listing the tech for a project I did, should i put Python and Django or just Django?
On a resume.
vapid jay
both
Django says you know how to use the framework django
Python says you understand the language underneath it
unkempt ferry
Cool ty!
vapid jay
I, want, to, be, a, software dev.!
torpid bolt
good, why? 🙂 and where are you in that journey?
vapid jay
Tried game development in Lua, didn't work. Learning basic functions in Python made 1 project now making another one.
torpid bolt
nice
clear zephyr
I want to be happy
shy pollen
Join the choir
last wolf
Hopefully this is the right channel my if its not. I'm generally new to programming and I want to eventually get a software engineering job, is it recommended to learn Python for your first language then move to harder languages like C and Java after? I was told to really get the foundation and fundamentals down you need to learn a language like C/C++ first. Is that true or could I learn Python first?
indigo sleet
Python is definitely a feasible first language, and a lot of educational institutes do use it as a teaching language for that purpose
gilded valley
I've heard from people who have been writing Java for 15 years that if they wanted to teach someone how to write Java, they'd still start with teaching them Python
torpid bolt
there are a lot of ways to learn programming, being very high level, python will let you focus more on the logic part, and architecture of programs, it'll hide a lot of the low level logic that allow all of that to work, C is much closer to how the computer works, it's a simpler language, but harder to master, since there are a lot of things to manage manually, it's definitely useful to have a look at it, but it's not mandatory to know for a lot of dev jobs these days (it was different 15-20 years ago, so a lot of people will still insist on it being mandatory). c++ is a much more complex evolution of C, much harder to master, and that allows for high level abstraction like python, but with a lot more understanding of technical details required.
Java is kind of a middle ground between Python and C++ in that regard
vapid jay
Java has a never ending job market
last wolf
Also, I know there are so so many ways to practice and advance your knowledge. Currently in Python, I understand some of the fundamentals like, Variables, Control Flow, Functions, Lists/Tuples, that’s about as far as I’ve gotten in a short amount of time. I’ve heard strategies of learning like very little, then just finding a project and struggling through it and learn that way. Or, is that not the most efficient way, and maybe going deeper first than going back and doing projects. I know there is no “best” way to learn, but what your guys opinion on this?
vapid jay
you'll get more of an answer in #python-discussion @last wolf
vapid jay
sure, since this channel is for careers and python it's going to yield less about learning
last wolf
Ok.
red nebula
guys what are your philosophies in applying for jobs that you are not qualified for?
pulsar drum
If I feel I could eventually learn it, and it's not too much of a hassle to muster up a resume for it, then I just apply anyway
Also the listed requirements can sometimes be a bit bogus anyway
In fact I am sort of in that position right now. I got a job opportunity through a family friend but i think I'll turn it down for being unqualified and also some other reasons
pulsar drum
It's a full time job and I am a full time student still. I don't think I could manage both...
vapid jay
soo
pulsar drum
I got the impression they weren't really interested and that they needed someone full time really
If I was out of school I would have probably applied even if I feel under qualified
But with some other factors I don't see it working out
It's data engineering job
I admit my sql isn't that strong 
But I could probably wing it
Anyway hope that real life example gave you some insight
hushed kestrel
@red nebula So. Uhhh
I think you should always apply to jobs that you think you are unqualified for
Reason:
#1 It doesn't hurt you. If they say no, you don't lose anything.
#2 It gives you feedback to how well you are marketing yourself
#3 People who make job postings have no idea what they are talking about and are generally super focused on solving a very particular business case that hardly ever requires the full job description to do. (Some companies want a full stack coder but 99% of their time they will do unit testing)
You can't know what their special requirements are or what they have in their head
#4 if you happened to get hired, you have boosted your career by 1-2 years + pay bump.
red nebula
interesting
a lot of companies won't even email back to say that they have rejected you
the only loss is the time invested to write up a resume and cover letter and to fill out their application form
hushed kestrel
That's true
But you have to let that roll off your back
If you have a 3% chance of getting a nice job. You need to apply to like, 50 places or something
5 applications a day means in 2-3 weeks you'll get the job
pulsar drum
I think for me the worry was, if I were to get an interview I'd have a hard time selling myself. Though, that probably means they may see more in me than I see in myself if they were willing to give me the time of day. That's something I still try to get over.
hushed kestrel
No
You shouldn't rely on others for your self image. if they are interviewing you, they are saying their hour of time talking to you is worth more than doing other things. That means if they are a manager who'se time is 50/h, they are paying 50$ to hear what you have to say. That should be a signal to let you know that you are offering something they value
Fight club taught us we aren't our jobs
pulsar drum
But what is it one would say
It'd be pretty underwhelming to give straight answers and say "no I am not experienced with x"
pulsar drum
Right, I don't want to get a job on false pretences either
hushed kestrel
Every pretense is false
That's why they call it a pretense
"I haven't use this tool before, but I've done similar things with x,y,z. " or like "I know the importance of using "This tool" or "It's alternative" and it is on my bucket list to learn in the next 6 months
Also
Interview experience is worthy in of itself
pulsar drum
Yeah I kind of had the same ideas but I don't think I've been very convincing. To be fair, I haven't had much interview experience yet. Maybe I will get better at it through just doing more
Maybe I didn't do enough research before hand
vapid jay
What type of programming do you think would be used in the development of biotech? Like, CRISPR technology which integrates the organelle CAS9 and some technology to coerce it into editing genes in a specific way.
Is python to high level? Is c++ too robot dependent? Is C# mainly for like GUI’s or something? I’m just confused on what would be a professional and relatively reliable/practical programming language that would make sense for development in the field of biotech
I’m really interested to hear your responses, but in the same vain I might be offline, can you ping me if you can respond? I’d like to hear your input.
hushed kestrel
So
I had an interview on Friday with a biotech company who is going to sell crisper technology to labs across the US
As a programming dev
There are different types of programing devs that will work in biotech. You could be the hardware engineer that does embedded programming. You could be a sensor fusion pro using c++,c#, or python, or whatever to take sensor data and process it. You could be the database dev to manage testing data for the end users. You could be the hardware testing dev to validate hardware system functionality (Python + Embedded systems ) you could dev the interface and work with labs to make something that they'll use.
@vapid jay
vapid jay
So, there’s not one generally accepted program for a given field or item?
I don't understand what you're asking
@hushed kestrel CRISPR, or crisper ( like a fridge? )
Like, I can’t just say “oh yeah in the biotech industry we only use c++”
hushed kestrel
That's not my area of expertise.
hushed kestrel
Whichever one helps modify DNA
vapid jay
That's CRISPR
And, while we’re on the topic, what field and ldegree should I get towards focusing on biotech development in college? There’s a lot of fields that seem similar and probably offer vastly different studies. I tried talking with a college planner, yet I didn’t get anything really useful. What degree would be best to pursue for someone who would want to help formulate ideas with scientists and communicate/write some basic code to hand off to other people to further develop? What degree should I get in what field at what school? Any recommendations would be nice.
Computer Science with an emphasis in biology would be my guess
Is there a specific name for what I’m focusing on? Is it actually multiple jobs of which I would have to decide one to do?
Oh, I’ll look into that.
hushed kestrel
There are biological engineers
hushed kestrel
But YMMV
But if you really wanted to learn about what you should do, you should cold email people in companies that do what you are looking for and ask questions
People on reddit share their experiences all the time
You need to talk to someone with domain experience. We can only give you generalities for what we might think could work
but that isn't some solid advice that you should base years of work around
vapid jay
Cold e-mailing may not work, considering they may be thinking you're trying to sell them something.
What company would seem like a good one to ask for information about?
Oh, rats.
It's possible though. Depends on the company/group
hushed kestrel
@vapid jay You'll be surprised just how many people will respond to cold emails if you lay out that you are seeking help
vapid jay
Yeah, that makes sense
hushed kestrel
You need to do some research on that AOTlevi
vapid jay
As opposed to "WHAT'S UP I'M WITH XYZ TECHNOLOGIES AND I SEE YOU USE SQL. I USE SQL TOO. WOULDN'T IT BE GREAT IF blah blah blah"
Which company would be a good place to start?
And which domain should I look for? Like a help or support email for a website?
You'd need to see the companies that do that stuff locally/regionally
and then contact them. Bit of research involved in that
hushed kestrel
"Hey, I am a college student who wants to go into developing medical technologies. I wanted to ask people already working in the field for advice ."
vapid jay
How should I state that if I’m in middle school?
hushed kestrel
then say you are in middleschool
And if you are in middelschool legit, email the CEO
vapid jay
Oh, I was joking xD
hushed kestrel
Lol
vapid jay
I am, but I’m not going to say which grade because I’m not at liberty to release that
hushed kestrel
If you were in middelschool, you'll come off as a kid no matter what you do. But the more serious you try to treat it, the more endearing it will come off
vapid jay
Also, on your grounds of “email the CEO”, I’m not sure how I would obtain his email...
"Hello, I am from [xyz town/school/whatever] and am curious in [insert whatever here]. Being in this type of field, what are some things I should look into, know about, emphasize when going to college/high school, and [whatever else you want to add here]."
vapid jay
Would that information actually be readily available?
hushed kestrel
It is usually ceo_first_name@domainname.com
vapid jay
Not always
vapid jay
Okay, well I’ll try and find a good company to cold email then.
hushed kestrel
find 10-20 good companies
vapid jay
Which term when looking at companies would yield the best result?
vapid jay
Just, like “biotech institute in [region]”
hushed kestrel
Biotech companies in "location":
vapid jay
Okay. Got it.
hushed kestrel
How do you use linked in to ask?
red nebula
just connect and in your connect message type in a quick and short message
vapid jay
yeah I was actually about to suggest the same thing. A lot of people, including people higher up (and I'd avoid lower level since its easy to fluff yourself on linkedin) really appreciate being asked stuff like that on linkedin
vapid jay
I'm stealing that one, thanks @red nebula
vapid jay
has anyone heard of Splunk
mild hamlet
Do we have a recruitment channel?
pulsar drum
No, not at the moment
vapid jay
@vapid jay No need to ask to ask - What's the real question?
leaden rampart
Just going to put out there that emailing a ceo directly will most likely end up with your email in the trash
vast shoal
Also, the Linkedin method only works if the recipient accepts your connection. I get like 10 connection requests a week at least, and I decline all of them unless I actually know the person.
vapid jay
You can send a message with a connection request
obsidian acorn
have you considered recruiters?
Though they mostly work with people who already have some experiences
mild zenith
!kick 576310522480295937 Considering the only thing you've said in the server were two advertisements to your fiver account, I'm going to have you leave. If you decide to come back, do make sure to read and respect our rules next time around.
inner wrenBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied kick to @winged granite permanently.
obsidian acorn
he just did
mild zenith
Permanent vs temporary. It's just how we have things stored in our system
Doesn't really apply to kicks, granted, but for mutes and bans it does
pulsar drum
Yeah, it's a side affect of trying to share code for all infractions.
But hey at least it isn't 1400 lines any more
obsidian acorn
lol
red nebula
@vast shoal dont you even at least read the intro message?
indigo sleet
I don't either, I must admit
red nebula
indigo sleet
The only reason I have it is so I have an online CV type deal because some employers want it for that
red nebula
I should probably fill out my linkedin with more detail than my CV
I put up a link to my github with a single bad project
indigo sleet
It doesn't actually matter what my settings are or what my employment status is though, I still get tons of recruiter spam
unkempt ferry
Is this a decent project description for my resume? Python - Uses Django and SQLite3 to save and serve user created lists. Developed with TDD using Selenium for the web driver. Hosted on a Digital Ocean droplet, and using Nginx and Gunicorn for the web and application servers. Project from Obey the Testing Goat by Harry Percival.
Sorry I'm not super sure what I should be talking about for projects exactly, but I want to nail it down.
The project is at http://superlists.aviananalyst.tk if looking at it would help
hushed kestrel
Who are you describing this to?
@unkempt ferry I personally don't believe that should ever be in a CV
Even if it is an accurate description of what you did
unkempt ferry
What should I put for projects on my resume then, since I don't have work experience to list?
and im describing it to whoever reads my resume.
US
gilded valley
For the UK at least, the advice I hear is to include stuff like this
from careers advisors, recruiters and software engineers
hushed kestrel
The first person to look over your resume are going to be non technical people.
gilded valley
are you a student or experienced?
mild zenith
Depends on the size of the company
hushed kestrel
No work experience
unkempt ferry
Self taught uncompleted CS degree no professional experience
gilded valley
In that case then the HR people won't really are about you at all, so I think its best to try and appeal to tech people
might be worth omitting the Project from Obey the Testing Goat by Harry Percival.
hushed kestrel
If you want to appeal to tech people, you need to find the tech people's personal email in companies and email your resume to their email address I think
gilded valley
other than that its pretty succint and demonstrates at least some experience with a good range of technologeis
hushed kestrel
Get their approval and setup an interview based on that,.
rare sand
I think that's terrible advice.
hushed kestrel
It worked for me in a couple instances
rare sand
emailing people who aren't involved in the hiring process is just as likely to just piss them off.
mild zenith
Or to be disregarded entirely
hushed kestrel
That just hasn't been my experience.
mild zenith
Sure but your experience is incredibly rare
hushed kestrel
It might be rare because people simply don't do it
mild zenith
Sure, because it typically does not work
hushed kestrel
How do you come to that conclusion ?
gilded valley
I mean, the vast majority of developers have literally no say in the hiring process. The best they could do is a referral to an open position, and they aren't going to do that because someone randomly emailed them
hushed kestrel
You don't email developers, you email department heads (hopefully who you'll be working under)
mild zenith
I have to wonder, what's the longest you've been with a company
rare sand
I also think the technical comprehension level of some of the people involved in regular hiring process is being underestimated. I've been in touch with many who would have had no problem understanding the project description above.
hushed kestrel
I work in startups, I've contracted for a company on and off for 3 years + worked for a startup until i was downsized this* summer due to a lack of money (1 year)
mild zenith
Then yes, those are incredibly uncommon circumstances
Usually smaller companies with only a handful of folks
rare sand
can we try to refocus this discussion to be about @unkempt ferry instead of being about @hushed kestrel
she asked for advice and we're veering off.
hushed kestrel
(I think it's important to understand the context of where the advice is coming from)
rare sand
I don't. all this advice should be taken with a pinch of salt anyway
mild zenith
We're talking general advice for small to larger size firms. The general advice should be to go HR, possibly to see if there are any contacts at your old school you can get in touch with, any friends within the industry, etc.
rare sand
including the advice I'm giving. I'm not in the US, so my experience is likely to be different.
mild zenith
From what I know, typically stating that you've done something on the resume in tech is going to matter less than having a portfolio to back it up
Especially if you're going in without a degree
marsh wind
yeah I guess whenever asking/giving advice you should say at least if it is US/EU/UK at a bare minima, cause it can differe a lot across countries. Like in any US career advice you would read to neer include your picture in resume, while in france resume without a picture with 80% is discrarded immediately
rare sand
that statistic sounds incredibly dubious, but your overall point is probably not wrong.
marsh wind
about 80%?
rare sand
I also think the picture thing matters far more at entry level
marsh wind
that is what HR people here say
mild zenith
As someone in the US, it's pretty much unheard of to send in a picture
Unless it's for acting
rare sand
once you've got enough experience under your belt, you could have 2 girls 1 cup on your resume and still get an interview
but sure, for entry level you're far more likely to be "filtered out" because of some trivial shit like whether or not you have a picture.
marsh wind
but my msg was not about pic, it was just an example on why it is better to say where you are when asking/replying with career advice
mild zenith
Right
rare sand
yeah, and that's a good point.
mild zenith
Just my last 2 bits on it: The important part is going to be your portfolio. Regarding the resume in general, there are hundreds of sites out there to help you figure out what you should and shouldn't have, the format, all that. But a good portfolio, good references, possibly contacts from job fairs or something, that can make a huge difference
marsh wind
I felt it on my hide - as I am not fluent in French I mostly read engish articles, forums etc and found that reality is vastly different in France compared to those who speak from US/UK experience
rare sand
I'm just making the point that if you're an HR person looking for the best possible devs, worrying about whether someone included a picture or not is directly equivalent to sucking at your job.
marsh wind
100% agree on it
rare sand
it's completely irrelevant, and any decent HR person will look past any irregularities in your CV formatting so long as your experience is interesting.
mild zenith
Now I think we're getting off the point again
gilded valley
If you're looking to fill junior positions, then stuff like conforming to CV standards makes reasonable sense as a filter. You want to make sure that a person is basically competent at some things Yeah, I fully read what you were saying then realised what I said was redundant
rare sand
yeah that's what I said. entry level.
anyway, yes, we're an unstoppable off-topic machine right now
rare sand
I think @unkempt ferry that including project info like what you showed earlier is a good idea if you don't have any actual dev experience to include.
mild zenith
It depends on what the current format for CVs is
There was a point where having your CV be a single page was a big deal, and then that many details would possibly hurt you, but again, that's something that needs to be checked up on
I haven't had to fill out a CV for a few years
rare sand
and I think that doing stuff like directly emailing department heads sounds like a gamble that may or may not pay off. I wouldn't pull a move like that if I didn't have much experience and was looking to break into the industry. I'd play it safer.
marsh wind
speaking of AvianAnalyst project, I think from tech viewpoint the fact that there is a github link right there is great idea. Cause even if the project itself does not look like much (which is probably fine for no experiece) it allows to immediatly look at what you did on the code/structure/git lvl
mild zenith
Agreed, and that links back to needing to flesh out a portfolio
Something like this is perfect fodder for it
rare sand
when I did the whole breaking into the industry thing, I banked on my github, project info (like what you showed), a nice linkedin, lots of courses from e-learning, and a very passionate cover letter.
I did have some IT experience, though
which I think helped.
but no dev experience.
and it took a few tries but it eventually worked out. just had to get in touch with the right company.
hushed kestrel
It's all about who you are competing with. If you want to compete with people who already have CS degrees + internships, go through the regular process and hope that your resume + cv stands on its own. If you can't compete with them in that way, find an alternative. Emailing department heads humanizes you if they read it and that is a leg up on the competition who by in large don't need people's charity in order to secure the role.
hushed kestrel
It's always 'if'
mild zenith
Sure, but going against the grain with 0 experience on the board is likely to fail
hushed kestrel
It isn't about likeliness to fail. It's about is it more likely to fail compared going the regular process.
marsh wind
btw what are your views on payng for elearning certificates, like coursera (deeplearing specialization for example)? Would it likley help with breaking on entry leel?
hushed kestrel
There are ways to cold email people and discuss what qualifications they are looking for and what you need to do to meet those qualifications that could also give you a legup.
rare sand
my experience is that employers who care about e-learning certs (many do not) don't care whether you paid for it or not.
marsh wind
yeah but if you don't, do you simply list them on resume, wthiout certifcation?
rare sand
yep.
open stag
Are there a lot of jobs that use Python WITHOUT a CS degree?
rare sand
lots of IT jobs where Python is a nice bonus that are available to anyone.
full time devs tend to prefer those with a degree, but some people get lucky and find their way in anyway.
unkempt ferry
So yeah the description on the resume includes a link to the application, and there's a link on that page to the github repo
should i do it the other way around?
rare sand
a bachelor definitely opens a lot of doors.
maybe not all doors.
@unkempt ferry I would put your github front and center.
imo it's your best card to play
unkempt ferry
At the top of the resume is a link to my github itself this is just for the specific project
hushed kestrel
The average time someone looks at a resume is like 6 seconds . Make a clear readable resume that puts forth your strongest arguments first for why they should hire you might be good.
fallen fulcrum
Hey guys, do you guys think I can become a junuor web developer (django) without a CS degree?
I started learning R during my master's degree in Financial Economics and then learned some python in my free time. I work for a Financial tech company and part of my job involves using Linux, SQL, AWS, JIRA, and some other IT stuff on a basic level. I also automated some of my work with Python.
For a number of reasons, I want to quit this job and self-study full stack Web Development full time for 6-12 months.
I am thinking of learning the Django framework, since I already know some basic python. Also I am very flexible on work location if there are no Django jobs near me (I have 3 passports).
If I put up some decent projects on GitHub and do some interview prep, will I be good to go, or will there still be too much competition for a junior role? What would you do in my situation?
rare sand
I would not quit your job to self-study full time. I think you should either quit your job and get a CS degree, or keep your job and study on your free time.
Django is a good framework. Flask is more common to actually find in the wild, in my experience, might wanna learn both.
I don't think it really matters if you have a CS degree as long as you have any other kind of degree, and you know your shit.
but there's no guarantee that 6-12 months will get you to that skill level.
if you have a master in Financial Economics, you might be a super interesting candidate for some fintech job, and a lot of fintech uses Python.
just a thought.
marsh wind
wel he says he does work in fintech already,no?
I work for a Financial tech company and part of my job involves using Linux, SQL, AWS, JIRA, and some other IT stuff on a basic level. I also automated some of my work with Python.
rare sand
yeah but as a developer
I'm saying leveraging that experience and education to get your foot into a fintech door as a dev (maybe even in the same company if they were open to it) is probably smart
rather than trying to go a completely different way
once you've got the first dev job, the second one is much much easier to come by
fallen fulcrum
Thanks for the advice @rare sand
I agree leveraging my experience is probably the best choice.
By the way, if I have the option to become a dev at my company, I will have to learn Java.. This kinda puts me off because I want to focus on Python
sleek vessel
@fallen fulcrum You and me both, my primary focus at my job is Python, but I do very little in Java (until i translate it to python where I can), then I also do UniBasic, which i loath more than java. But I have to say knowing them all really helps you understand more about programming. You shouldn't close yourself to just python, no matter how great it is.
fallen fulcrum
@sleek vessel very true, I should be open to Java. It's just a bit daunting to start a new language while working full time and just having learned basic python. I guess I should just go for it anyway
sleek vessel
If your fairly new with python I would hold back a bit for java. But don't rule it out for too long.
fallen fulcrum
Fair enough, will put it on hold maybe
Unless my company says the opportunity is there for me to become a dev soon
rare sand
maybe you should speak to your company about it
yeah, Java isn't Python, but like I said, any dev experience is gonna open a whole lot of doors for you. If your employer would let you move over to a Java dev position (provided you learned enough Java first), that would be a great way for you to get your foot in the door.
then you can look for a Python dev position as your second job
a job that will come much easier.
and who knows, you might like Java.
marsh wind
from all I saw Java has a big market
rare sand
easily one of the most employable languages out there.
fallen fulcrum
Thanks, this is very encouraging
halcyon ginkgo
Hi
I live in the Uk
I am considering a career in programming
However upon doing some research i have found that software engineers in the uk seem to earn less than half of what their American peers earn
I really enjoy programming, however it would be quite upsetting to feel like i was underselling myself
halcyon ginkgo
I know
i took that into account
on average, software engineers in the UK earn 38k ish
in gbp
mint citrus
im earning 3k USD a month here but im able to put like 1.5k in savings every month ez
halcyon ginkgo
cost of living in the UK is pretty expensive down south
where the tech jobs are
especially in london
mint citrus
im sure they will pay enough depending on where you live
halcyon ginkgo
i just dont want to be paid half of what i could be because i live in the wrong country ig
ig i could move
is there like some huge piece of the puzzle im not seeing
mint citrus
Its all relative
dude im making 36k a year
and im doing pretty darn well for myself here
mint citrus
CoL is cheap here
halcyon ginkgo
where do you live?
mint citrus
sure I earn little but CoL is so little that im doing quite well
im living in Thailand currently
mint citrus
well yeah most sites say another number
halcyon ginkgo
i guess if i work hard and get good qualifications i can do wel
mint citrus
yeah
your first job prob wont be as high as you want
but you can get higher with more experience
halcyon ginkgo
i better work hard lol
hushed kestrel
I don't understand how Software engineer salaries in england are so low
Same with nurses and a lot of other jobs
Maybe things are scaled with CoL ?
Bay area cost of living is insane, but it's only like, 40k COL, but with a 100k salary for any programmer, that's like, 35k net above expenses
dire cedar
In England, nurses make sense, because government subsadised healthcare. Costs have to stay low so salaries are low.
Programmers, not sure.
acoustic maple
hello
right now I am a highschool junior student in America. I'm deciding if I should study computer science or not?
I do have the fear of ageism
in the tech industry
pulsar drum
If anything, I have read that younger employees are preferred
The people who are in their 30s and changing careers are the ones that worry about ageism, not you
By the time you finish your studies you'll probably be at the "ideal age"
mint citrus
I need to switch jobs before im 30 then
pulsar drum
Well don't take my word for it
All I can say is that they worry, but not if they should be
hushed kestrel
I'm about 30 Mark
I think it's actually fine as long as you aren't trying to be a junior role
Or that if it is, you need to somehow use your other skill set to do something more unique than just the junior role
For example, if you have a degree in ecconomics and then want to be a software dev, you should apply as a junior position at a fintech place
Repeat the line over and over "My knowledge of x will help inform my dev decisions that will give you more utility than devs who don't understand your unique concerns "
Or w/e
hollow osprey
Could someone please explain the different career paths one can take with python development? I'm really enjoying selenium so far, and am curious what kind of skill sets I should be building with python.
vapid jay
I'd recommend machine learning and artificial intelligence
Not only is it spectacular pay, but our future is moving towards automation and AI
Try interning and checking out a bunch of places
see what you like the most
Maybe you're into data science, microcontroller scripting, web development, just feel the water
hollow osprey
that's awesome, man. Thanks for the advice! Can I ask what you're doing with python, and how you got there?
vapid jay
I'm full stack
I work on ML, data, game dev, web dev, etc etc.
I take on whatever seems interesting at the time
How i got there?
Playing around
tryin new things
Staying curious
I usually would look at the bigger pistuare, then see how i can make it easier or automate it
hollow osprey
When you say full stack -- does this mean front end/back end development with python? or does it mean knowing a few different langauges?
vapid jay
The latter
hollow osprey
ah cool
Are there any freelance jobs for beginners in python?
Actually, I know there are. Are they mostly a scam?
^i guess is the correct q
vapid jay
I don't know of many scams unless they dont guarantee a good payment method
Just dont do freelance on craigslist
hollow osprey
would it be possible to do freelance work as a beginner?
hollow osprey
oh cool
vapid jay
If you want to do that then you have to make it clear to the person you're working for that you're a newbie
and don't tackle something that you arent 100% sure you can do
vapid jay
Build up a portfolio
Share your projects
The best way to explain your skill is to show it
hollow osprey
That's a good idea. I am currently working on a selenium "project" to help a relative automate some of his tasks while at work for a real estate office
torpid bolt
I'm 34 and i'm bombarded with job offers, i don't know, it might be different in 5 or 10 years, but i seem to have it better than juniors i hear about, that have a hard time findin, their first position
Having 10+ years of python certainly helps with the high demand for that right now
pulsar drum
I was talking about people trying to break into the industry
I see posts from time to time of people trying to switch their careers later and a lot of them have worries about being too old compared to other candidates
That's all
mint citrus
yeah that makes sense
im hoping my experience holds up when I switch again in about 1-2 years
mental aurora
I feel like the best time for juniors to get hired is right around May/June/July because that's when people are graduating and companies are looking to fill those entry level positions
If youre looking for an entry level position in november/december imo it's just less feasible
torpid bolt
that sounds counter intuitive to me, maybe they are looking more during this time, but they certainly also get a lot more candidates, so the demand might be more easily matched, the ones that look at over times of the year certainly have a much harder time to find matches to me
this is just guesswork though, i don't have data to provide, as i've not been active on either side of that research for quite some time
mental aurora
I guess it depends on company size and more factors
gilded valley
Big companies, in the UK at least, generally seem to hire the most junior people with grad programs that have fixed dates around September for starts
mental aurora
similar to what i was saying then yeah?
gilded valley
Well. I'm not sure if juniors refers specifically to uni grads, but if so yeah. For more general low level positions, it seems to be year round
torpid bolt
i'm not saying most of the recruiting happens outside of these, it does make sense that they would hire most when there is a flood of students on the market, but it doesn't mean that the few juniors looking year round won't find positions
offer and demand both vary, and it's the ratio that is important
gilded valley
My main point was that the grad hiring and other hiring seem pretty isolated from one another
So unless you're a grad, I don't think the dates are as relevant
torpid bolt
my company is looking for a few juniors every quarter for example, that's only one datapoint, and of course we don't look specificaly for entry level applications, if they have some experience it's best, but we don't specifically wait for september to look for them
gilded valley
You're in France right. Does your company generally hire only French people? I'm just curious as to how international most places in Europe are
simple elm
how do i make money
zealous ibex
@simple elm try freelancing or maybe going on bug hunt websites and try that
torpid bolt
I'm in france, we are open about hiring people from other nationalities, but not remote so they have to come, we have multiple nationality in the tech team, and a few more in the whole company.
French, spanish, romanian, italian, portugese, everybody speaks at least some french, but we do meetings in english when needed
We had a chinese dev but he just left after 9months
We had a iranian but that didn't last, he had to leave because he could'nt work without having done his military service, not fun for him :/
@gilded valley
(to be clear, just answering the question, this is not a job advertisement)
gilded valley
Thanks for the comprehensive answer.
vapid jay
whats the longest interview youve ever had/administered?
obsidian acorn
I am in the US, I have sat at an over an hr interview
The interviews I have held usually last 20 mins to 1hr
if it is reaching an hr, for me, it is either I am enjoying the conversation, or it is not going anywhere, so I usually end it before an hr
torpid bolt
full day interview, meeting 7 people over 6 hours i think
vapid jay
@torpid bolt you were being interviewed?
I had a call w/ a company tonight adn the recruiter toldme that if the hiring manager wants to meet with me in person itll be a 4 hour in person interview
The interview with the company im at now was like 30 mins at most
hushed kestrel
I once had 2* 1 hour interviews and a 4-5 hour in person interview after that.
mint citrus
4-5 hour interview. what they did ask?
mint citrus
huh
guess that makes sense
oh yeah i did have a long interview for this company as well. i totally forgot about it
hardy ferry
My interview was very short. Like <1 hour.
They gave me a trial period of 3 months though to see if I fit into the company. Pay was meh during trial period. But they cut the trial period down to 2 months and I have been a full time permanent employee since.
German here. At other companies I heard they were doing the same.
hushed kestrel
What sort of role was that?
mint citrus
I never got a pay raise after trial
I left the company later on for treating tech team like they dont matter
there was a lot of garbage code
they just didnt put enough money into building their actual product. it all went to marketing
hardy ferry
That was right after I finished studying. Got the position Junior Consultant. They put me into a ton of different projects in different companies. I don't really have a specialization. Did a bit of everything. It also really helped that I had a GitHub profile.
mint citrus
you still working there?
hushed kestrel
i've only seen that process in the US for positions that have high turn over or are government based.
Probationary periods also happen when your employees have strong collective bargaining agreements in which case it is a tool for an employer to choose not to hire someone if in a more general case they have agreed to only fire people with just cause even if it is an at will state
vast shoal
I think it's pretty much the standard here in Sweden. It's extremely difficult to fire someone, so afaik most companies have a 6 month trial period.
I also think it's pretty standard with 2-3 x 1 hour interviews + practical coding tests.
modern burrow
What kind of jobs associated with Python may be possible in korea?
mint citrus
are you in korea?
mint citrus
well if you said north I wouldnt believe you lol
modern burrow
Gotta think about my job so I can get a job right after I finish serving the military
mint citrus
I actually have no clue. every country is different
hushed kestrel
I would imagine lots of companies need python coder s
I know someone in SK who is taking 6 months of python programming
They are getting interviews I think
(They also have a degree from a US university )
opaque finch
Guys, stupid question, had an interview for a Graduate position with a local Tech company, should I interview my contact in the company (organised the interview through), thanking her for her time etc?
Or does that sound like I've given up and know I'm not getting the job etc
vast shoal
I wouldn't think to do something like that personally, and I don't think it's going to significantly impact your chances.
Maybe it's very different where you're from, but I doubt it.
opaque finch
I'm from Ireland/UK, I just remember being told waayyy back in school to do it, but have never done it
hardy ferry
Depending how busy they are a phone call could bother them. Then an e-mail is better. This is something my supervisor would prefer but it may be different for her.
But it's best if you could somehow meet her by chance and strike up some small talk and convey that you are still looking for a position.
The best way to land a job is by knowing people. Try to network. It's hard for a fresh graduate and I don't have a good formula on how you can meet the right people.
indigo sleet
Ireland here, I was never told to do that, but it can't hurt
I'd send an email if I was doing it
because frankly the number of companies here that just never respond to your CV being submitted is shocking and those that even do that should be thanked >:|
opaque finch
It's too true Voodude
Luckily I'm currently in another graduate job, but I applied for this company prior to accepting my current position. And not only is it closer to home, but it's also nearly a 10k increase in salary, bit of a no brainier imo if I get it
indigo sleet
I've been applying to jobs for.. let's see
around 8 years
you wanna know how many replies I've had?
I'll tell you: two
and those basically don't count because they're community employment under the welfare system
opaque finch
Jesus, that's shocking
I tend to get a reply saying "you've been unsuccessful at passing x stage"
and if I don't get a reply, I e-mail them or find someone to speak to
Most people would be afraid to contact them, but I personally feel it shows determination
hardy ferry
how long have you been holding that graduate position?
opaque finch
I graduated in July, got the job offer a week later, started at the start of August
hardy ferry
It is really looked down upon if you cannot hold a job. Changing jobs after less than a year is a big red flag for many employers
indigo sleet
the only non-welfare jobs I've had were a job coming out of my first year of uni (with fexco) and a freelance job working on some IoT gear
I've been "unemployed" for around 7 years
hardy ferry
Even if there is a better paying job etc. employers don't like employees who switch jobs
opaque finch
I know what you mean, but in this case it would be a better opportunity for myself in my career, and is a company I can see myself in for years
hardy ferry
People say it is okay to switch jobs after 2-3 years.
Yea it's good for you. But an employer looks at it from company perspective. It is a red flag since they assume you are incapable and/or you are going for payraise after payraise.
It doesn't hurt for you to try to find better opportunities. But this is a reason why it is now harder because you are already in a graduate position.
opaque finch
Should know if I got it by the end of next week, can only hope for the best
toxic vessel
depends on the market/location -- in the bay area and california at large it has become, for better or worse, very common to fail upwards very quickly, switch jobs the moment something bothers you because someone else around the corner is fine with it and will pay you more
to some rather strange extremes
but regardless for the moment in these places demand never seems to be met and it's just the way it goes. good for some of those engineers, less good as a manager
hardy ferry
Yea but that is for someone with years of experience. They are fighting for knowledge. But a graduate doesn't have much knowledge and needs to be taught
toxic vessel
yes and no, definitely they aren't beginners but the demand is now such that they arent seasoned veterans either, someone with 2-3 years in the field who doesn't suck at it can totally jump around and continue to be in demand
lots of companies also prefer to snatch up the young talent that they can mold into whoever they think they need as employees
i dont personally view anything negative about someone who comes in with a CV showing lots of job changes but then again i'm also in startupland and am pretty accustomed to seeing these employers only survive a couple years so it's more of a novel rarity when someone comes along who has been doing the same thing at the same place for any length of time
really would be nice if the market wasn't so fragmented like this, there's so much work in some places that people elsewhere could use. wasnt technology supposed to break down these walls and make remote work a thing and all of that nonsense haha
hardy ferry
I'll write later in a meeting
hardy ferry
He graduated in July and has been working since August. It is quite early for him to already switch companies. Also he's from Ireland/UK.
I personally work in a consulting company. The pay could be better since they are selling me to other companies but the experience I gain from it is invaluable since I have many insights into different projects and companies. I learn a lot.
I also have big companies as customers and there I am also switching from projects to projects.
Switching jobs after 2 years is fine. It's just if you just got a job and are already switching the job again. That's heavily looked down upon (at least in Germany). Because I am doing consulting work I meet a lot of people and hear a bit of gossip and what they pay attention to.
Software engineers seldom do the same thing. If they could their work would be automated away. Changing jobs is encouraged for your own sake (more pay, better conditions) and for the company's sake (knowledgable worker) but there experience is a requirement.
It may be completely different in the bay area but Europe doesn't have a strong startup culture and Europe isn't known for their tech companies.
obsidian acorn
@hardy ferry I completely agree. The in the tech field, there are contracts that are 3 to 6 month to a year.
For those, it is understandable why you would be switching positions, if you are on contracts. If you are on full time however, the minimum should be about 2 years, before you switch
if you are switching from a full time position after 2 to 3 months, that is not good at all, and companies as well as staffing companies look down upon that.
at that point, it has nothing to do with the learning part, but companies hiring have to pay staffing companies for the engineers they are bring on board. If the engineer will not stay long enough to complete a projects, it is more expensive to bring a new engineer to figure out what the previous engineer completed and continue from there. And they also have to pay for 2 engineers instead of one. There also come the time it takes to find, and hire a new engineer. Therefore, it is not favorable to hire someone with the background of switching positions too frequently, even for 'the learning experience'.
marsh wind
but what if, let's say the other company hires him full time, and he works there then for 2-3 years - would anypne care that he quited the previous job after few months?
I understand the point if it would happen several times
obsidian acorn
I am not saying that it is impossible to find positions after one such a track record. I am saying that companies will look twice before hiring this person
And during the interview, they will mostly ask, why you left the company before this one, if it was not a contract position
marsh wind
I would too, if it would be all over the track record. but if it was the first job I think you can find a perfectly reasonable explanation to why you left it early on?
P.S. not trying to argue, just want to understand
hardy ferry
If they get 10 applications they will invite like 3 to the interview. That may be the deciding factor why he wasn't invited. If he still gets invited they will still ask about it. But if you manage that far and you are a capable software engineer it shouldn't be a problem to convince them. The harder step is not to be sorted out and to be invited to an interview in my opinion.
marsh wind
The harder step is not to be sorted out and to be invited to an interview in my opinion.
I think it applies everywhere when you don't have much experience 🙂
but I see your point
hardy ferry
The thing is everyone have reasonable explanation why it didn't work out. But every company has their flaws. He has to know how to still be able to keep himself afloat.
So they rather have someone who has a flawless record then someone who has a flawed record because there is the potential that there might be bigger issues.
obsidian acorn
agreed
hardy ferry
He said before the reason why he is switching is better pay and it is easier to reach from home.
This is not a good argument.
not a good argument for switching after 2-3 months
obsidian acorn
exactly, that means, if a company offers him more money, he will not care about the project that he is working on, and will just leave
marsh wind
well this is an argument he gave us - I don't think he'd say this to hiring manager
I hope 🙂
opaque finch
It's not just that, the company itself treats it's employees horribly
Something I wasn't aware of until I joined
obsidian acorn
is He very capable? and can you trust that he will not leave after 6 months, if another company poaches him?
opaque finch
I also haven't been applying for other jobs from I've been here, this has been one I applied for months ago before I even went for this one
marsh wind
cause, I think despite how much you worked arguing that you left just for better pay is a bad argumet
opaque finch
Oh god 100%
obsidian acorn
as in , how bad was the pay?
opaque finch
I'd be taking a job (if I even get it), due to the better experience and opportunities available in the job
It was minimum wage
obsidian acorn
exactly
sometimes you may want to take one rate or title lower than your current one if it is worth it
hardy ferry
I'm not telling you you shouldn't switch jobs. I don't know your full situation. Just speaking from employer perspective.
obsidian acorn
from speaking on both end, I agree with Linley
opaque finch
Yeah, I completely understand why it would raise red flags
hardy ferry
I personally am paid below average for the title I am holding. Furthermore I am in a consulting firm thus I'm being paid even lower than a normal software engineer directly employed by the company.
But I like where I am right now and I will stay with this job for the experience. Company culture is also great.
I also have to travel a lot and there is a risk that my next customer will be far away.
opaque finch
In this situation, I haven't actively been seeking other jobs, this one came back to me after accepting my job offer for this one. And in my time in the company, it has been less than what I expected. This other job provides so many more opportunities in relation to my career as well as travel opportunities, and the higher wage is a bonus.
If I get the offer, I'd be leaving my current company in December to start in January, and I'd happily explain to any future employer
hardy ferry
If you get to the interview prepare your arguments well. It never hurts to send out applications while having a job 👍
opaque finch
I've already done the interview and all, should find out if I get the job by the end of next week! They never asked anything about my current job because it wasn't on my CV when I applied for the role, however I did tell them that I'm currently working on a graduate programme etc
obsidian acorn
Well, good luck.
I hope you learn as much as you can from your current position before that happens
I would be considered underpay for my title as well, but I am learning so much, as in every day, by the time 2 or 3 years come, I will be an expert in this industry, So, I don't mind
opaque finch
So far, I've learned a lot! I've been given a new project for a client using AWS which I've never used before. So far, learning a lot, and within this project, I'm also learning Python 🤷
obsidian acorn
@opaque finch one more thing, if I may add. This field may seem to be supper large, however it is a lot smaller than you would think
so, people talk to people, particularly during conferences, connections may be made down the line that can come back to you. So, on that end leave every company at a position where if you were to apply back at that company, they would hire you in a heart beat,
that is, if that is possible. So essentially, leave every position in a good term
opaque finch
I fully agree with you, it's always best to leave any position on good terms, and always have since (part time jobs etc)
Thanks for the advice guys, appreciate it 🙂
obsidian acorn
np
vapid jay
What type of jobs can I get by learning python without college degree?
small folio
web development?
small folio
I would do few projects and search for advices and learning resources in the community
I recommend sentdex for python
vapid jay
ok thanks so much
small folio
np
my answer is not the only one that exists so you should make some research and see real cases of people getting jobs without degree
vapid jay
Gotchu
hardy ferry
I've worked in a couple of projects. Python was used but not exclusively. In one project Python was used to automate tasks to make developing the main program (written in C) easier. In another project we used python behave to run tests (again a bigger system). Currently I'm working on a REST backend on an existing database (frontend uses Angular, database filling is done by another project written in Java).
However the thing is Python played for me in all of those projects a secondary role.
If you want to land a job without a college degree you have to be good at programming in general. Know a bit of everything and be specialized in Python. Python alone won't get your far except you are an absolut pro at Python which you won't be if you are learning Python now.
What are your experiences and what are you doing now that you are already planning on landing a Python job?
vapid jay
I'm really good with computers in general but are now just getting into programming
I just want a job in programming in general
What languages should I learn
I know where I wanna be, I just need a little guidance on how to get there
gilded valley
Where are you currently at in life, still in education?
vapid jay
Just turned 21. Dropped out of college freshman year to make money