if you live in the eu its not uncommon.
#career-advice
humble elm
especially if you live near a border
a lot of people commute from germany/france into the swiss
frigid urchin
not really sadly :/ (north africa) I found some jobs here but the pay and the ammount of hours is so low. (like 4k$ a year for a full time job)
unkempt ferry
ty! yeah there's a few reasons why i haven't switched my gender marker yet.
vague maple
Standard entry requirements: Grade 4 in English and 6 in Maths. Plus, you will need six GCSEs at grade 4 or above.
Subject specific entry requirements: Grade 6 in GCSE Physics, or equivalent.
Please note that you must also study A Level Maths alongside this A Level.
this is the requirements for my local college for cs is this good requirements?
gilded valley
This is pretty standard I think
It used to be 5a*-c, plus a b in a specific subject
vapid jay
I guess you can study all the disciplines required at home. I did that when I wanted to study EE: I studied Calculus along with Physics at home. Then I just made some tests and "eliminated" these subjects from my course.
karmic sun
I read a quora post the yesterday about starting programmer salaries and how they typically start 60k and up, but someone answered and talked about how he experienced some jobs with programmers who made significantly less and weren't formally educated, weren't very good, but can get the job done with flaky software.
How do you make sure you don't fall within that group?
north mantle
Ask good questions during the interview process.
And always know your worth. If you are desperate for a job you will get a desperate, low salary.
But these days so many people can write ok-ish code that salaries are trending downward for the low end developers.
No way to jump into high end without putting in the work. So if you are starting out you may have to deal with lower salary for a few years. Gain skills then apply for the higher end jobs.
vapid jay
That's the most common, start with a low salary to get experience then apply for higher salaries jobs
marsh wind
@swift veldt what about photo/gender/nationality on resume in france? I see it being put quite often so I did too
not sure tho what is better
swift veldt
Usually a photo only is good policy on a French resume. However, if you send a resume in English to a French company, keep the english format.
I also believe the photo on a French resume is slowly getting out of fashion for fairness and anti-discrimination reasons
Which is a good thing.
marsh wind
I do have resume in French and English but usually only use English
so what is exactly English fornat? no Photo/gender/nationality/birth date, only name and contacts?
swift veldt
You don't need to mention gender or nationality on your French resume. If you're a foreigner, just mention you're allowed to work in the EU (maybe).
For an english format: name, surname, phone number, email, portfolio
That's it.
Don't put no photos, no nationalities, no gender or anything of the sort.
summer hill
@north mantle true words dood. been a programmer for 15+ years. Just got my first “software developer” position today in fact. Nobody in the interview could remotely keep up. but you gotta start somewhere right.
somehow saying, i’ve built everything in 15 years and have more exp than all of you combined didn’t seem like it would roll off the tongue haha
RIP, off to learn C# ;P
swift veldt
Good job for the position, @summer hill!
fair sky
Can I complete mt Bachelor Degree in INDIA and apply to US for Jobs
humble elm
do you have us citizenship? if not you need to apply for a visa
and a Indian bachelor probably wont be valued as much as a us bachelor
humble elm
no you need a work permit to work in the us. normally youd get a visa for that
mellow agate
@hardy sleet Hi there, sorry we don't allow for promoting of services or recruitment here at this point in time. We recommend using an official jobs board for that type of thing. Sorry for the inconvenience!
gilded valley
Getting a visa to work in the US is incredibly difficult
humble elm
yeah
karmic sun
Hey @north mantle following up on your answer from yesterday, I've been working as a developer for 3yrs now but I still don't feel I've really gained experience because none of the jobs have really been able to teach me anything other than me figuring out problems by looking up documentation and reading posts on forums. There's been no code review, no mentoring, no assisting with bigger projects to gain more knowledge.
I just built a python desktop app for my current company that pretty much ties together 5 of our different systems (1 being amazon AWS S3), but I'm not deploying it officially like a normal application or software is. I've just written a script that installs all the dependencies and creates all the directories etc. I've improved my code drastically since I started my first job, it's more organized with functions built out for each step of a process instead of spaghetti code.
But I still just can't help thinking I'm missing something something, like a basic foundation of bigger yet common concepts. Like deploying the app out more officially and whatnot.
whole mulch
Hmm, I’m somewhat on the edge on what to learn next as a second hobby
I have three things in mind atm: learning VBA, learning design with illustrator or writing short stories atm
Not exactly careers, but I want to focus on one (maybe two) of these to get a more diverse set of skills when working
karmic sun
VBA is pretty useful, excel is used everywhere
at least career wise
the others are good too if you're interested in them, up to you
ashen summit
Hello everyone! hope you are having a great friday
I had my first whiteboard interview and interview at an actual company last tuesday
for those who are worried about their first white board, I must admit, I was shitting my pants at first, but it ended up being such a fun experience working through the code with the interviewer
I spoke to 3 people.
the first person I spoke to did not really like me, I did not know enough about their company. Which is true. She asked me whether or not I went on their website. I did, but the things she expected me to know are nowhere to be found on that site. So at this point I was thinking I bombed it and just decided to take the rest as a learning experience.
The second person I met with reviewed my take home coding challenge with me and gave me the white board test. She is in the same position that I am applying for and we got along very well and I think we just had fun coding together, so that was a great sign imo
The third person I spoke to wanted to see assess my ability to explain what the second person and I previously went over, how the code works, and any improvements we made during the whiteboard test.
I started explaining in very minute detail and he stopped me and started laughing saying he did not realize I would be so specific.
I did not know whether or not that was a good thing, but he assured me he was happy with it, so I kept going. We shot the shit about the current contracting job I am doing now, talked about unittesting, work flow, etc.
At the end when we were leaving he stopped me and said "We got a lot of candidates from the enterprise sectors, and people who just came from bootcamps, and while they are good, they all come with their own problems, But your [my] technical skills mixed with your ability to communicate make me think you are a diamond in the rough."
So I was pumped after that.
He told me he would let me know about the job by the end of the week.
It is Friday and I still havent heard back. I really hope the first person doesn't sway the other two to not hire me
I just got an email from Indeed that was advertising the position I interviewed for (they are only looking for one person I believe), I hope this doesn't mean they are looking for someone else.
Anyway, just wanted to share my experience with all of yoU!
sorry for the wall of text!
empty zealot
@ashen summit If you don't hear from him by Monday, give him a call and inquire about it. That's what I did with my first job and frankly it's what got me the job. It's nice to know an applicant is not only excited about the prospect of working there but eager to get started.
ashen summit
Yeah I will call him up on Tueday as that would be one week since the interview
thank you for the advice 🙂
marsh wind
What's exactly a whiteboard interview?
ashen summit
they make you code on a whiteboard
so i set up a database and an API on the whiteboard in this case
marsh wind
Huh,I see. So far I was used ti the fact that I can do a quick Google if I have doubts about any function usage, syntax etc
ashen summit
haha
none of it
so this interviewer was not so focused on syntax
she told me clearly, I do not care about syntax, I want to see that you know what your doing and you know WHY you are doing it
humble elm
luckily python is pretty much pseudocode hehhehe
marsh wind
Yeah I guess it makes sense,if you are not supposed to use some specific lib and its functions on the whiteboard directly,
ashen summit
i tried to initialize flask and sqlalchemy on the white board and she stopped me haha
but at least she saw that I have flask and sqlalchemy memorized
i would say just research the company a lot
that is at least where I failed in this case
@pseudo gorge this probably not the right thread for that question
pseudo gorge
celest anvil
Anybody have success with online uni’s?
Just wondering about the extra difficulty getting internships etc
ashen summit
I never went to an online uni, but unless it is a real university and u are taking online courses, they do not have much credibility imo.
vapid jay
Online universities usually teach theory with videos. The practical part is usually at the uni
I studied the theory online and joined some projects at the uni.
vapid jay
Firstly, I've read that If you were a junior developer looking for your first developer job hypothetically... that it's best for you to unfluff you resume with skills you only sort of can apply, and things you rate yourself as less than 5 on a scale of 1 to 10, and then to reduce it down so that a hiring manager can see, "ah, he's a junior developer who is best at this," because if they are hiring a junior developer, that's what they need, and showing what you actually can do is better than listing every keyword for what you could do given some time to look over books.
So assuming that the above is true and accurate, and I was going to put on my resume that I tended toward using python to work within html and css... That's a very general thing... do you think as a junior dev it would be prudent to list the specific modules you were very familiar with?
Also kind of a side question: So, some companies have very specific policies in regard to scraping and automation, etc... and I imagine that the idea of web scrapers could feasibly be very irritating to them.
Should I avoid sharing that I have skills like... "I can pretty much scrape anything on the web whether you want me to or not" -- because I can. But I dont want to come off to an employer like someone who had repeatedly done the thing that they are actively irritated about.
At the same time... that skills could be useful to them. How do you go about sharing that on a resume?
reef marsh
You can still say you know how to scrape and collect data, it's actually a line of work, I had to crawl competitors for my company and we checked the ToS carefully
vapid jay
I definitely would rather apply my skills legally than use them to do things that will increasingly have more laws drafted about it.... I like to do it, but people are touchy about it. I guess when their entire business model is serving those pages with all the BS, its understandable.
reef marsh
It is still however a legit skill in your arsenal, so don't hesitate to say "I can do it, if ToS allows me to"
vapid jay
Okay thanks
bronze shard
@ashen summit I wanna know whether you get the job or not, mention me on Tuesday pls :D
ashen summit
@bronze shard will do! thank you for rooting me on!
serene sundial
This isn’t job related but wanted to ask if anyone has experience with Arizona State University’s online Masters of Computer Science program. I am researching online programs and looking for personal feedback. If this is the wrong place to post please point me in the right direction! Thank you ^_^/
vivid dock
Completely fine to ask here (can't answer though)
marsh wind
@serene sundial I'd try to search reddit for feedback, people often post things like that
serene sundial
Thanks for the help!
valid oriole
A friend recommended "Grokking Algorithms - An illustrated guide". Is the study of algorithms useful?
fringe horizon
The study of algorithms is very useful, I do not know about this book though.
Usual recommendations are CLRS, Sedgewick's or Skiena's books
vapid jay
what is clrs
fringe horizon
Google it
vapid jay
Google uses python?
tired hill
Yes, a lot as far as I know
gilded valley
I believe python, java, and Golang are what Google uses for back end stuff
agile stone
Correct, most of its programming, If youve ever opened the dev menu, is made of mostly java and google script. However python is normally used for their data logs
valid oriole
Thanks for the recommendation. I'll check out CLRS.
vapid jay
aside from GCP, I don't think Google uses Go for anything internal..
I know they're doing migration from java to Kotlin for some parts of Android
it's usually C++ and Java for major products
stable estuary
hey does anyone here work in any of these fields?
"Finance/Banking
Transportation
Health
Telecommunications
E-commerce
Energy"
reef marsh
E-commerce
swift veldt
Finance guy here (currently market risk management position in NYC). I worked in financial risk consulting, FP&A, and M&A in the past six years in banking, automotive, and international travel industries--moreso in management or analyst positions rather than programming however.
vapid jay
I have worked in energy, telecom and health
it would help if you tell us why you're asking this.. and not later DM out of context:v
vast shoal
@stable estuary I work in fintech.
stable estuary
sweet as
the reason i was asking
is i just have to write up a small report
i found some sources on the web, was thinking it'd be good idea to talk to someone in the field too
if any of you have a spare minute, would appreciate any responses for any of those questions, cheeers in advance!
icy berry
I work with healthcare and logistics. But im no data scientist. your questions looks more refined to only the data science area.
deep notch
I have question. What do you all think is better a degree in webdevelopement or computer programming?
humble elm
Cs.
swift veldt
Defiitely CS
deep notch
Hmm computer science?
the goal is a Bachlors in Cyber security but I want to know the programming backend so I can be even better.
gilded valley
My understanding is that a goal in cyber sec is pretty much just less valuable than a degree in CS. Practically no where hires just cyber sec grads and will consider them equal to CS grads; with the exception that as a cyber sec grad a software dev job migh be harder to find
deep notch
What I have in mind is to have somthing very valuable where I can apply both and can allow me to be an expert in the feild.
gilded valley
If you wan to become an expert in a field, then it seems best to me to get a wide base via a bachelors, then do a PHD in said field
vapid jay
I used to work in the oil field here in Brazil and in energy field.
In the energy field for 3 1/2 years and in the oil field for 2. (I'm still young) 🤣
are there any careers that use Python as their main language?
swift veldt
Financial risk in middle and back office.
Front office finance uses low level languages
atomic ermine
so i got only d's and f's all throughout school. how do i get a decent job? also, im actually pretty dumb it cant be anything too complicated
unreal linden
pulsar drum
Decent jobs involve skilled work and skilled work has a degree of complexity to it.
Programming specifically is complicated.
Typically students get bad grades because of bad habits and lack of motivation, not cause they are "dumb"
If you're willing to put in the work you can learn a skill and get a job with it
marsh wind
@gilded valley not sure that PhD in cyber sec is really a good idea...or even a thing :)
shy pollen
It's a thing but CS > Cyber Sec
Casually browsing netflix's jobs. Why is every single one a managing or senior dev?
pulsar drum
Cause those roles are probably harder to find
shy pollen
81 jobs and all are seniors or manager
Seeing senior take up small management tasks, how would that ever work
atomic ermine
i have done programming and i made $2,000 from selling programs when I was 14, so maybe my programming skills can get me a job? I don't have a portfolio or anything. I never did programming in school
heavy kelp
hi guys. so basically im looking to get into a really good college for computer science, most likely MIT because my mom works on the same campus as MIT.
currently I have a 4.1 GPA and a 1590 on an official SAT, but I know that my gpa is quite low because I was slacking off sophmore and freshman year. any chances my elevated knowledge of programming in C#, python, C++, and java could possibly get me there?
or is there anything i should start looking to do to improve my chances, because this is basically my dream school and id hope that my knowledge of programming in general could help me out since ive been programming for around 4 years (since age 13)
vapid jay
you need to do something with your skills man.. start a business, employ some people.. or compete in those olympiads.. or volunteer to teach
You sound like a smart person. Find a gap in a market that interests you, and perhaps make a webapp or some kind of service to help people do something.
they have exceptional people apply to the undergrad programs.. so you have your work cut out for you.. if your dream is to study there, find multiple ways of getting your foot in the door.. and don't be discouraged by any one attempt
heavy kelp
@vapid jay @vapid jay You think they would care about businesses?
I do own a raffle bot which I developed
And I have around 8k followers and stuff and a lot of buyers
I havent done anything really that helps people in any way, kinda lacking ideas in that area
Everything i think of is usually some sort of business idea
I did join my computer science club in hopes of finding some big competition that I can win which would improve my resume
and demonstrate my programming skills
vapid jay
have you heard of STAR
you need to place yourself among your peers, see what skills they might list to get into the same program as you.. and what you can list to stand out amongst those
which is why anything that demonstrates selflessness, curiosity, initiative and leadership will stand out.. as long as you phrase them well
gilded valley
PhD in cyber sec is definitely a thing @marsh wind
Examples would be network traffic analysis, software vulnerability detection, phishing email detection, and I don't even know what but there are definitely useful phds to do there
marsh wind
Nice. Means just never met or heard about one 🙂
I'd think it is something very applied and not too academic hence I was not sure
vast shoal
Most topics can be made academic if you just go deep enough.
bronze shard
@ashen summit and how it went? :D
ashen summit
Morning dude. Still didn't hear back from them. I am gonna call them around 3 if I don't get an email today
Hopefully it is not a bad sign
short trellis
Daddys
quasi badger
@heavy kelp my knowledge of programming is probably not as deep as urs but i have similar plans any way we could work together?
ashen summit
@bronze shard I GOT THE JOB
OHHH YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
swift veldt
Awesome, dude!
ionic cargo
@atomic ermine Grind python, build your git hub repository and search for a job. This should take a year or two though so you gotta be committed. Jobs nowadays don't specifically require you to have good grades but i'm not going to lie with those grades it wont be easy. I'm no expert but I would advise you do online courses and just learn everything you can for now.
raven mica
@ashen summit congrats 😎
ashen summit
thanks guys 🙂
ionic cargo
@ashen summit what is your job?
ashen summit
Client Solutions Engineer for a company recently acquired by one of the big 4.
ionic cargo
Well congrats :p
ashen summit
to piggy back off what you were saying to @atomic ermine I started coding 8 months ago, self taught, now I have a real job. If you can grind and learn quickly on your own, you can definitely do it
thanks man
ionic cargo
Mhmm, it's going to hard in his case considering his grades but I believe if he builds a github repo e.t.c he can do it.
ashen summit
i mean, no one ever looked at my grades
but
I was doing a PhD at a good uni (in the humanities). I quit, but I think that helps me seem interesting
ionic cargo
Hmm, but it's likely it's going to come out. But he could do it.
ashen summit
he definitely could
ionic cargo
Mhmm.
ashen summit
I would say go the website, web-app route
learn django, flask. figure out what REST is and API
make 7 projects.
5 at least
even better if you can say you were contracted (even if you do it for a friend for free)
ionic cargo
Ye.
ashen summit
make that github look nice, make a portfolio site
ionic cargo
That helped me tbh aha.
ashen summit
what was your journey like?
ionic cargo
I'm currently 14, on a break right now for my GCES'S but i'm going to start studying pandas/matplotlib soon (done some basic stuff as of now), looking to get a position as a data analyst and work my way up.
ionic cargo
Not really, well haven't specifically looked into it, just teach myself with this discord and YouTube.
ashen summit
got to meetups.com or something like that and you may find one. they were super helpful for orienting me in order to find a job, also good to network a bit
you are still young though
take your time and learn as much as you can
ionic cargo
Mhmmm, not planning on going to uni aha.
ashen summit
if it isn't cheap/free, I wouldnt recommend it
I am 80k in debt now from 10 years in uni
ionic cargo
What's the payment like for you?
ashen summit
technically, I am still a student, i didnt fully quit PhD and I am on academic leave
so I have not started paying it off
I only regret the PhD though, my bachelor and masters years were awesome
got paid to study abroad, learned so much, met my wife. It was all so much fun
swift veldt
What subject do/did you study?
ashen summit
East Asian Langs and Cultures, specifically Medieval Chinese Religion
picked up 5 languages on the way too. definitely wouldnt trade the experience
ionic cargo
Oh, is the system good where you are? I know in the UK they make you pay depending on your wage e.t.c So that's good for where I live so I have no idea whether I want to partake because the financial part isn't the issue it's the fact that it will eat up multiple years of my life which I could spend learning at a much more efficient and overall faster rate.
ashen summit
dude
I live in the US
hahaha
enough said for sure
we can pay less, but the interest will keep accruing
ionic cargo
Yes, I assumed you live somewhere else that's why I made the comparison.
ashen summit
yeah, US is not so easy when it comes to student debt
ionic cargo
Mhmm, that's what I thought.
Therefore it's not the financial support in my case it's just the time spent.
ashen summit
if you know you do not want to do it, def don't
ionic cargo
Mhmm, thank you.
ashen summit
you are 14, and even if you were just starting now. you have a solid 4 years to get good
you will be a shining star
shy pollen
Hm, looks like I missed the deadline for work experiance
Apparently there was something given out last term that I didn't get
swift veldt
Damn interesting
ionic cargo
Mhmm, thank you. The competition is tough, I know many other people who are at my level around my age.
@shy pollen Do you know how to code and the fundamentals of python e.t.c?
swift veldt
How old are you?
ionic cargo
If so ask around.
shy pollen
Hm?
ionic cargo
Surely someone will take you on.
shy pollen
Oh no I mean work experiance in a dev job
ashen summit
work on your communication skills (not that they are poor from what i can tell), but it seems like every interview I went on, that is what made me stand out
are you asking me @swift veldt ?
shy pollen
I know how to code and everything
Just would like to get some work experiance as a nice CV piece
ionic cargo
Then ask a company in that field.
swift veldt
Ethan
shy pollen
In the UK we go through schools, no?
ionic cargo
We do?
shy pollen
Yeah for work experiance
ionic cargo
14 @swift veldt .
shy pollen
That's what the council website says anyway
ionic cargo
16 i'm pretty sure is the lowest age for an apprenticeship.
shy pollen
Not an apprentiship, work experiance
ionic cargo
Oh yeah, my bad.
shy pollen
Year 10-12s are allowed in it
ashen summit
@shy pollen I do not know how late you are on the deadline. but I would recommend talking to your university and explaining the situation. make something up. you may be surprised at how bendable they can be
shy pollen
(I think)
swift veldt
Depends where you live. But it's not because you cannot legally work right now that you ca the build stuff and make a portfolio for yourself.
shy pollen
For parents but these are the rules I think: https://liverpool.gov.uk/jobs-and-training/working-for-us/work-experience/
swift veldt
@ashen summit so you're exiting a PhD in the humanities to get into dev?
shy pollen
Not very informative
ashen summit
yeah, left 9 months ago
shy pollen
Hm, looks like I can email the council?
ashen summit
it was my first year thankfully, those programs go on for 8 years
ionic cargo
@shy pollen I'm honestly not sure, your best option in my opinion is to ask a teacher tomorrow or email them.
ashen summit
@shy pollen I would definitely call (not email). then meet in person
swift veldt
So you're like 25-26? Did you minor in CS while doing humanities or you're learning on the side?
ashen summit
I am 26, I am self taught (starting 9 months ago), and just landed my first full time job today. I have a contracting job though developing an app that i started a month ago
ionic cargo
@shy pollen age?
shy pollen
14
ionic cargo
Oh same aha.
shy pollen
Oh yeah, huh
ashen summit
@shy pollen You call first, it will show initiative and display you do not need your parents to hold your hand
ionic cargo
It's not for a job @ashen summit
ashen summit
eventually they may ask for your parents. but that is fine, just show them you are independent
swift veldt
Damn nice. I am in your boat, @ashen summit. 27, started learning programming end of April and I want to transition out of my current industry by next september.
shy pollen
The council is the middleman for work experiance
ionic cargo
It's fine for an email to the council in the uk.
shy pollen
So it almost always requires someone 18+ to apply on behalf of a child
ashen summit
@ionic cargo I would still recommend calling yourself. I know it is not for a job. But when I was in the same situation as you for a study abroad, my own initiative and independence helped the case.
@swift veldt what industry are you in right now?
swift veldt
I would be interested in reading your learning process and about your l-curve, Dom.
ionic cargo
Hmm, I agree, learning to do that is important.
swift veldt
I am a manager in financial market risks.
ashen summit
what is an I-curve
swift veldt
Learning - curve
ashen summit
sorry i read that as an i not an L
swift veldt
My fault, no worries.
ashen summit
well
I learned HTML and CSS at a young age, maybe 12 and got proficient in that. Then (9 months ago) I watched giraffe academy's python tutorial on the basics, then I watched Corey Schafer's Flask tutorial. I then made three or so websites (a portfolio for myself, and two for friends who had small companies). Then I learned Django and created a site with that. I spent time learning ORM and how databases are structured. Then I learned about REST APIs and started making those for practice (and job-interview take-home tests). Then I began learning Angular to get better at Javascript. I also made a small asteroids video game using Javascript. I learned and started to use git. I deployed all these sites on a server that I pay for (looks better to have your own .coms and show that you can manage a server). I also got proficient enough in a linux environment (minor bash scripting).
swift veldt
Nice
shy pollen
Started a year back for me, learnt fundimentals of python then done on and off discord.py. In ~january I started flask and finished the deep-dive into webdev in june. Learnt rust all summer holidays and now i'm back onto some more advanced webdev
ashen summit
what do you mean when u say advanced webdev?
shy pollen
Making an actual marketable platform that I can properly scale and know what i'm doing
ashen summit
awesome
shy pollen
Would like to get into some embedded works with Rust but webdev is sort of sucking me in
ashen summit
idk what Rust is, never used it
ashen summit
ill check it out
shy pollen
:)
ashen summit
lol
shy pollen
🎉
whole mulch
Python for machine learning and AI?
spare cairn
Changed my nick
Can anyone tell me if there is rules about looking for some help?
Couldn't find it.. or maybe missed in in #welcome
spare cairn
Oops let me specify... Looking for help with my project lol, more of collaborators
shy pollen
Help is given on general questions, you can't advertise to recruit here
If that's what you mean
final thistle
marsh wind
@ashen summit congrats on getting hired that is awesome
did they tell you or you contacted them in the end?
final thistle
oh
bronze shard
@ashen summit congrats!!!
I couldn't really respond at the time you pinged me, cause I live in a different timezone 😅
dawn temple
@shy pollen what made u think or prefer embedded systems than wevdev?
shy pollen
Not sure yet, not had time to learn any embedded yet
timber moon
Python for cyber security?
I'm looking to get into something to do with cyber security.
If Python is included that would be a bonus.
bold totem
@timber moon this is only partially related but im also into cybersec, you can checkout something i did in python here https://github.com/giardap/ring
timber moon
Awesome, I'll be sure to take a look at it. Thanks! 👍
outer steeple
anyone know how I can land that dream job of janitor intern at Valve?
vital nimbus
Not mentioning Half Life 3 during the interview
outer steeple
^ good advice I will try to remember that
vital nimbus
Sorry that's the best input I had
wooden needle
hey guys, i was just pretty new to python and was looking for someone who also started so we could help each other out, if you need to know anything about me just msg me
unkempt ferry
I got a call back after submitting a code assessment!!
mild zenith
Niiiice
valid oriole
@wooden needle ping me if you have questions. If I don't know, it will be a good exercise for me to research it.
twin quarry
Whats the best subscription service to get you test and job ready in python?
gilded valley
I don't really think there is any best service. You pretty much just have to work towards it yourself
There was a post on /r/learnpython with a few thousand upvotes about a guy who self-taught python and landed himself a job (he is/was also on this server)
twin quarry
Do you guys think the realpython subscription service is worth the money?
ashen summit
i dont really think you need a subscription service
You would be better off emulating real world experience by doing projects
that is my opinion though
raven mica
I can't speak to RealPython's subscription service, but I find their articles to be particularly high quality
paper tulip
hey guys
just ciurious from people that have a little more experience in the hiring process
typicall how long after a take home coding assessment do you hear back if you got to the next round of interviews?
I emailed my interviewer a week after I submitted my code, and its been 24 hours and still no reponse from him
when I check the job portal, it still says "in progress", but im assuming it;ll say that until they hire someone and then Iit'll change status.....
trail mantle
From experience its taken 1-2 weeks to hear back whether it was negative or positive, but I've never emailed the recruiter for an update so not sure on that end
vapid jay
@paper tulip how big is the company?
paper tulip
@vapid jay very large, but I think the team is fairly new
vapid jay
Could be competing with internal hires too
paper tulip
yeah that may be the case, I'll be patient probably won't follow up till mid next week
vapid jay
Never did a take home assessment personally did you meet them in person?
paper tulip
nah I had 1 phone screen
then I had a 30 minute behavioral/light technical interview
and then a coding assessment after the phone call was given to me
vapid jay
Could take a bit, shit takes forever
paper tulip
true I'll hold off till probably next wednesday to follow up again
vapid jay
Yeah and if they don't respond again then don't even think about it bc realistically they should be able to give an update when you email once
paper tulip
yep
slate cave
Do companies offer internships related to software engineering for high school students?
outer steeple
yes
vale heart
ask em
quasi badger
How long would it take to sealf teach programming good enough to do it as a side hussle?
vivid dock
Not easily answered by us.
You're probably one of the very few that know the answer to that.
quasi badger
aight
vivid dock
I know people who still don't know how to program after "doing it" for over a year, and seen students master it in a month
So the range is too big for us to guess how long it will take you, just try and judge yourself how fast you're learning.
Just know you're never "good enough" to do it as a side hussle, that's also a "just do it" when you're past the basics
There's always that one thing you want to learn before fully commiting to a hussle
rare sand
side hustling programming, even if you're an expert programmer, is not necessarily that easy in and of itself.
at least not if you wanna make any real money.
vivid dock
I believe that's the definition of a side hustle?
Something you do on the side of your full time
quasi badger
yea
twin quarry
Id like to get a job using python. Is there a resource to help me get test ready so Im at least minimally emploable?
So far Ive just been watching tutorials and making small projects
vapid jay
You have a portfolio then, that's a start
vast shoal
@twin quarry @neon moat posted his experience going from 0 to landing his first job: https://www.reddit.com/r/learnpython/comments/ctkypf/im_100_self_taught_landed_my_first_job_my/
If you follow the same track, you're probably going to have a decent chance at least.
vapid jay
There's a similar post on Medium site
atomic ermine
do you really need connections to get a good job? because i dont have any
raven mica
It's not required, but it is very helpful. It's not the sorta thing you can do overnight, but it's something you work towards and build over time.
twin quarry
I need to upload my projects to git to showcase for prospective employers. I'm using pycharm so it's a venv. Is there a guide to the proper folder structure of a professional python project? Or do I just poop my whole project into a repository?
spark roost
Pretty sure you leave out the venv @twin quarry
Have a README + requirements file to specify the needed libraries/version
Or commit an executable
The easier it is to run your code the more likely they are to look at it
imo
neon moat
@twin quarry it takes a long time to be job ready in my opinion, its not something that happens overnight
torpid bolt
@twin quarry there are a lot of articles about how to structure a python project, from a packaging side, there is https://github.com/pypa/sampleproject and inside the "samble" dir you would have your actual app's modules, which also might be structured depending on the kind of apps you do.
twin quarry
Thank you everyone for the feedback.
shell geode
Definitely contact the recruiter, they are your middle man, your go to. Do not hesitate.
vapid jay
I hate when people at work as me how well I know python. How do you answer that? I'm not an expert and I'm not an absolute beginner
olive hound
Dont think there are many experts
But you could say you're intermediate in your skills
pulsar drum
There's no definite boundary for those terms
It is indeed difficult to try to quantify knowledge
It's easier to show than to tell often
Especially to people who are not also knowledge in the same thing
torpid bolt
you could say things like "I've used it for X years" "I've built Y projects with it". But yeah, it doesn't say exactly how good you are with it.
Most of the time what they want to know is if you can handle a project with it, now if you know every feature of the language
vast shoal
I find that "How well do you know X?" is usually followed by a technical question regarding X.
icy berry
it is quite hard to quantify, like maybe if you knew x % of python you get to become an expert. but python is ever growing, nobody can know it all, it is just to big. so with that assesment there is a point where you become an expert, but the next day you are not since the language has grown
to be frank, an advance python programmer knows everything there is to know to get the job done.
but an expert knows about the inner workings about how the language operates
to the point where you can create custom behavior without breaking anything
like hooking into the inner workings of the code.
but if you know how to do this but you cant do anything else, i would not call you an expert. you have to have the other knowledge as well.
hence, quite difficult to quantify
analog turtle
"well enough, I use it on a regular basis. Did you have a question about it?"
hollow osprey
Hello, I have a few basic questions, that I can hopefully branch out to more serious questions. I am in my late 20's, and am thinking seriously about a career change . I want to learn python for this, but also so that I can approach problems with a different perspective. I've heard you can get a good career knowing python, and that people who are data scientists actually know python and R. My first question is, in learning python for a career change, would it be better to learn it as a major primarily, just do projects, or learn through online courses primarily? I know that python learning is supplemental in nature, but all I hear on reddit is that you do not need a formal education with python.
swift veldt
I am in your situation. Late 20s with a 1-year plan for a career change. As far as it goes for me, theoretical learning hasn't helped. A tight agenda while churning out projects is what keeps me go.
hollow osprey
Oh and should've added this -- no prior experience, awful at math and critical thinking (in programming scenes anyway).
Awesome!
Yours seems extremely advanced.
swift veldt
It isn't really. It is mostly trial and errors and persistence.
My main advice from my short experience is using your prior knowledge in another field to power your learning curve.
I'm working in Finance so I leverage that while learning
hollow osprey
My prior knowledge is almost useless, I'm working in children and family services
but I could tell you had a background in Finance!
swift veldt
It's not useless. You could rebuild from scratch a tool that you use at work. Like a calendar tracking the days children are in. A database replicating the type of data you work with.
This type of stuff. You must be using some tools/software in your daily job that you know kinda enough to try reproducing.
hollow osprey
That's an interesting thought.
I use a ton
I basically work at a very specialized abuse hotline.
And assess allegations of abuse in real time.
swift veldt
That's a tough job. Glad people like you are around.
An idea could be the following: I am sure you're filling checkboxes or documents live and then 'print' out a report of the situation. You could reproduce that interface and the inner workings up to the pdf printable summary at the end.
hollow osprey
It is tough. And honestly after a few years, it's extremely stressful. There are good moments, but it's mostly hearing about child sexual and physical abuse, death, or in the rare cases I get the unlucky (or lucky depending how you look at it) opportunity to talk to a suicidal caller.
Typically, I'll ask and write questions in a word document, then arrange the information in a legacy app, which is very particular, in a very specific way, check a bunch of boxes, enter a bunch of information, then send the report out to county investigation offices.
swift veldt
You could either recreate that bit. Or try to create something that could replace the word doc step
hollow osprey
I suppose I could do that.
swift veldt
It will help you learn about classes and python seems to be a good start.
The hardest part I found in learning is managing not the code but the environment
Installing, etc.
That's the hardest part and the main hurdle.
But you can do it.
hollow osprey
Thanks for your support. It's good to know I'm not alone here. haha
swift veldt
👍
mystic summit
So I have a service desk lv 1 position for 3 months and I want to be a sysadmin. How bad is it?
Ideally I'd want to outgrow this position and get a promotion w/o having to change company
Generally speaking, is it doable?
gilded valley
I don't know specifically about service desk --> sysadmin, but I've heard a lot of stories of people starting at low level jobs and working their way towards much higher level positions.
The advice I've heard given is that you need to show that you're dedicated and capable/willing to learn, and that you need to know what you're working towards. Specifically, its a good idea to speak to someone with the job you want and explcitly ask 'What do I need to know/learn/do over the next X years so I can get to where you are?'
mystic summit
Idk if I'll be here enough honestly, is there a way to show that I am willing to bust my bottocks in 3 months?
Not get a promotion mind you, but like, make sure I can get another shot
lilac stone
Hello, I am conducting some market research. What tools do you use to allow your clients to view the status of their projects?
vast shoal
@lilac stone Assuming we are freelancers or consultants implementing a software project for a client?
lilac stone
@vast shoal yes
vapid jay
@lilac stone I don't know how common this is, but for a project a family member had a few years ago done, the freelancers made a private repo, and she could see the commits they made daily
unkempt ferry
It's best to just ask your questions. If someone can help, they will
obsidian acorn
@hollow osprey what's your question?
hollow osprey
So i'm writnhg a littel quiz thing
and
I need to know how to store the answers once done, categorize them, then set them to fun litlte facts like
obsidian acorn
this is more of a help channel question
obsidian acorn
this particular channel is for career related questions
but pick an unused channel
will join you there
hollow osprey
python help 7
light summit
Anyone complete or take a look at the Data Scientist career track/courses offered by DataCamp? Any good?
vast shoal
@lilac stone In a past project we used Jira with a scrum plugin for issue tracking, and we gave our customers access to the board.
split anvil
hey is anyone around ? im kind of stuck
split anvil
well yeah, I've been in this terrible loop of not knowign what to learn. I'm and Econ grad but i love tech so I wanted to get into Data Science, first an internship then a Jr Role, but as I looked around people said I needed a PhD or a MS. So then I thought maybe an Analyst role but the pay is so low and I learned all this Python and really want to use it. Maybe a dev later on but then I check the cscareers subreddit and they say Python is so easy it's no respected.
I feel like I'm getting squeezed out of every potential option I had considered.
vast shoal
@split anvil "Python is so easy it's no respected" this is nonsense.
Employers don't care about how easy or difficult something is, they care about what kind of results you can produce.
And, in any case, the ease or difficulty of programming languages are only a small factor in the development process. You can use the "easiest language in the world" and the application can still be extremely complex.
torpid bolt
People need data scientists, if they dismiss anybody that doesn't have a Phd, they'll be waiting quite some time to find them, the difficulty is probably in finding a job where there already are data scientists so as an intern you are not on your own to learn. I think most companies that would need one has none, rich companies have a lot of them, but they might be more picky, i don't know.
split anvil
I thought so as well.. and there's so many libraries. Honestly those comments just made me feel very stupid
Learning Python has been going pretty well but the more I read about what I want to do the more I feel discouraged as more and more walls keep coming up.
vast shoal
@split anvil Programming and CS is a neverending learning experience for everyone. You're never going to master all of it, and you're not expected to.
torpid bolt
as a python main, i can tell you that i get all the respect i need, companies are constantly trying to hire me.
vast shoal
@split anvil If learning is going well, that's great, that's the kind of state you should always strive to be in.
If that's the case, you are doing well.
split anvil
haha that's good to hear man cause i friggin love learning python
vast shoal
Even as a working professional, I am constantly learning new things every day.
The kind of people who do are the most employable.
split anvil
What else do you know that compliments your knowledge of python, or rather how do you use python professionally ?
torpid bolt
Currently i do web development, mostly backend in python, and some front in javascript, but i don't claim to be very good at that, modern front dev is quite a thing, but i get by.
vast shoal
I'm building an online payment system with Google App Engine at work.
It's part of Google Cloud Platform. You can learn that for free.
torpid bolt
complimentary knowledge for me is SQL, (modeling and querying), aws (mainly ec2, s3, rds, old stuff), and tools like git, linux, etc
vast shoal
Learning the basics of how the web and web development works is generally useful information, even if you're not gonna be working with web development, I would say. You tend to run into it all over the place.
Yes, SQL and databases are also extremely generally applicable.
Pretty much every application needs to persist data.
Version control is extremely important for any modern software project, and Git is the most widely used version control system.
So learning Git is very useful.
split anvil
Yeah I'm currently, after getting through the book Automate The Boring Stuff learning and am learning Flask and how to make a Rest API
so i can get into React
vast shoal
Learning Linux might be required depending on where you end up working, unless your employer uses a Microsoft-based tech stack, but even if it isn't, it really pays off to learn.
That sounds like a good path.
split anvil
but I need a job while doing all that cause I think itll take me at least a year to be good neough to make a portfolio and get a job
Oh i've read a bit about git
@torpid bolt when you say modern front end is quite a thing what do you mean ?
torpid bolt
it's a bit complex, and it wasn't meant to be, so there are a lot of tools to learn, libraries like react/redux require quite a bit of learning, powerful, but it's not something you grab on the way, you have to put some time into it to manage.
git is a good thing to learn, it'll save your life every day
vast shoal
Yeah, there are quite a few different technologies that you have to learn to do modern frontend development, and they all kinda interact with each other. So, it's definitely not impossible, but it's an undertaking to get up to speed with it. Fortunately, there are tons of learning resources online, for every step of the way.
torpid bolt
companies all want full stack devs now, but i think most people are either strong on the front or on the back, and you need a team to manage both anyway, it's good that everybody knows at least a bit about each side, but nothing wrong with being more expert on one side than on the other
split anvil
They probably want FS Devs to have to hire 1 guy to do two people's jobs lol
50% off Devs is a steal
torpid bolt
yes, it's definitly possible to learn, of course, and there are so many resources these days, it's only a matter of putting the time, reading, building, and asking for guidance when necessary, sticking to it.
split anvil
I think I can definetly stick to learning code have had a pretty structured regiment. I just wonder when I'll be good enough.
vast shoal
Well, I think being fullstack is good, it's more efficient if you're able to take a feature from the drawing board all the way to production, and you're able to step in and help with everything.
split anvil
I honestly feel like im googling waaaay too much still
vast shoal
@split anvil You never have to feel bad about googling, we all google all the time.
There's way too much information to keep it all in your head, googling and reading documentation and tutorials and guides and articles is all part of the normal workflow.
torpid bolt
yep, unless you are doing something you did dozens of times, you need to google all the time, learning is part of the job, and sadly forgetting seems to be as well
split anvil
Hmm so if I don't recall how to do something and I google the solution how will I ever know if im actually good
torpid bolt
in fact, if you are not looking up information, it's probably because you are doing tasks that you already know well how to do, employers like that productivity you have, but you are not challenging yourself and growing, just honing skills you already have
vast shoal
If you're able to produce the end result you want, you're good enough.
torpid bolt
yep
vast shoal
There's no simple way of estimating exactly how competent you are and what you're capable of. You basically just have to keep at it and take it one step at a time.
split anvil
man that's gonna give some massive anvil impostor syndrome
vast shoal
Which is also pretty common.
split anvil
Did either of you have to do code interviews for your current positions ?
vast shoal
You can build your confidence by building your own personal projects and gradually make them more complex.
I did tests for my past two positions yes.
And technical interviews.
split anvil
how hard were they. I've tried some codewars challenges but they were pretty hard..I'm gonna do cracking the code interview to help me get better.
vast shoal
The one I did for this job wasn't very difficult at all.
It was just about implementing HTTP endpoints or something, I don't even remember exactly.
torpid bolt
oh yeah, impostor syndrome all around
vast shoal
My last job was at a fintech company, and it was a bit more theoretical, I had to implement an algorithm for selling off a portfolio efficiently or something.
torpid bolt
doesn't help that you see your constant struggle and see the wonderful things people build all around, and very few people make the stupid mistakes they did on the way public
vast shoal
My advice would be not to compare yourself to other people, but only compare yourself to yourself in the past.
If you are learning new things and you're improving from what you used to be, then you're doing well, and you're on the right track.
torpid bolt
yesterday i spent 1h looking for why my shifumi executable wasn't working, it was telling me that it couldn't find shimufi package, and i debuged pretty deep without understanding, why it couldn't find the package that i could import without issue, turns out shifumi ≠ shimufi, i'm an engineer
vast shoal
You're only failing if you're stagnating.
split anvil
haha
😄
yeah you guys are right. do you guys have any tips for learning. best thing that helped you along ?
vast shoal
Choose a passion project, something you would be excited about building if you only knew how, then work towards learning what you need to build it.
torpid bolt
everything can be understood, sometime it's weird and you have to dig pretty deep, but everything, in CS, can be understood
vast shoal
If you feel lost about where to go and what to learn, or if you need help with specific problems, you can ask here.
torpid bolt
so when you have a question, feel free to dig, what you'll learn, aside the answer to your question, will be invaluable, learning how to dig.
vast shoal
Yeah, everything can be untangled, you just need to be patient and set your expectations correctly.
torpid bolt
and debuggers are awesome, learn to use them.
split anvil
Oh speaking of debuggers
In the book Automate The Boring Stuff he brings up the debugger
torpid bolt
pdb?
split anvil
and the features of running thought the code to see what is happening
torpid bolt
yep
split anvil
can you describe a problem a debugger has helped you solve ? cause in the example code he gave i just saw the problem before I ran the debugger so it didnt really help define its use
torpid bolt
they probably showcase the debugger with a very simple bug, to avoid getting distracted by it
split anvil
im assuming in a large application
torpid bolt
but most bugs happen because you assume something is true, and your code reflect that, so stepping through the code with a debugger allows you to check values, and what branch of the code is taken
split anvil
where things appear the be working but something strange is happening with output it would help a lot right ?
vast shoal
@split anvil Sometimes something breaks, or doesn't behave correctly, and you just have no idea why.
The cause can be a complicated sequence of events, where some variable way earlier gets the wrong value, for some reason, and it leads to a chain reaction that eventually culminates in some exception being thrown, or a weird value being displayed in a GUI, or something.
torpid bolt
say your function is called by another function, and it crashes, because the value it gets is not what it expects, you can put a debugger there when the value is incorrect, and then move up and down in the call stack, so you can see where the value comes from, and what it means, and if you have to handle this case because it's legitimate, or if that value is wrong because of something you did before
vast shoal
A primitive approach for dealing with this can be to add a bunch of print statements all over the code, showing what the values of different variables are at different times.
And then maybe you can see where things start having weird values.
And find the original cause of the problem.
A debugger is basically a sophisticated tool for automating this process.
Instead of having to add print statements into your code, you can simply stop execution anywhere you want in the code, and look at what the values of variables are at that time.
And then you can see if things look right or not.
split anvil
Oh ok ok then I think I know how to use one
I do that kind of stuff a lot except in the terminal lol
vast shoal
Yeah, most people develop their own techniques for finding bugs before they learn to use a debugger. A debugger is often a much easier and more efficient way of doing those kinds of things.
split anvil
I would agree cause strangely in Pycharm the terminal break sometimes
Well thanks so much guys, you put my mind at ease. I'll just keep learning and hit you up tommorow for more questions
vast shoal
Sure thing, you're welcome anytime.
mystic summit
Well, it seems I'm in triage
Good thing is, my contract lasts only 3 months so...
Should I refuse if they offer me the same position?
After the 3 months have passed
obsidian acorn
@mystic summit what is the position?
mystic summit
@obsidian acorn help desk 1st level
It's triage and basic troubleshooting, like password resets and unlocks
I have to pay my dues, I'm not expecting a headstart or anything, but I want to learn and not be a mindless drone
violet obsidian
Depends if you want to continue getting paid for doing that task or not?
mystic summit
Wdym?
violet obsidian
You asked if you should refuse to work the same position after your contract expires. I answered with that depends if you want to continue working that position or not.
mystic summit
It's more so, if I should pay my dues with that position or seek something else in the company
violet obsidian
I guess the question to ask yourself is what are you paying dues for
mystic summit
(Is that the correct phrasing?)
violet obsidian
What is your goal
violet obsidian
welp, that's where you start
obsidian acorn
would you be able to get another position within the company?
violet obsidian
Unless you know somebody to help put you in a higher-level position, generally you'll have to apply to the position like anyone else.
And then the typical screening process goes from there. Does YuckDroid have the qualifications for this positon? etc.
obsidian acorn
so, you are working in help desk, what other positions maybe available in the company that you might want to do?
mystic summit
I know, I can ask to put me in dev but I don't like to program for a job
obsidian acorn
@violet obsidian there are other ways around that
mystic summit
Uh...idk. 24/7 helpdesk which paves the way to sysadmin
obsidian acorn
I agree with you, but you can make the company want to keep you for additional values that you can bring
violet obsidian
Sounds like you need to figure out what you want really. Once you know that, you start working towards qualifying yourself for that.
mystic summit
Network helpdesk me thinks, maybe
obsidian acorn
have you done some work on sysadmin before?
mystic summit
Maybe dba something
violet obsidian
helpdesk doesn't necessarily pave the way to sysadmin
You'd need to do the work to get sysadmin experience. Something you can prove when you're applying.
obsidian acorn
Anything can be used to pave the way for anything else, so, there is no such thing as a straight path
mystic summit
@obsidian acorn I've done a basic linux course, that's it
obsidian acorn
do you have any dba/sysadmin experience
how long do you have till the end of your three months?
mystic summit
3 months
obsidian acorn
how close are you (physically) to the people work in sysad or dba?
obsidian acorn
do you have any down time?
obsidian acorn
yayks, that kinds sucks a bit
mystic summit
Plus a 30min break
obsidian acorn
what about afterwork?
obsidian acorn
ok, during those time, pick either sysadmin or dba, study them, through courses, or materials, practices
go the office, make friends with a couple of the people who work there
and ask questions about what they do, and talk about sysad stuff with them
mystic summit
Could that work with security stuff too? Or is a degree better?
obsidian acorn
what do you mean?
mystic summit
Hm
Sysadmin and dba have resources online in a streamlined way
Like, organized etc, one thing leads to the other
obsidian acorn
yes
mystic summit
With security it's all scattered
I feel
You don't really know where to start, how
obsidian acorn
I see, there are courses, that take you from the beginning, to end, basic
then find courses that goes much deeper
in security, it usually start with hardware, networking,
mystic summit
Books?
obsidian acorn
pdf, videos, whatever you are most confortable with
mystic summit
They're easier to read on the bus and the train, where I lose a bunch of time
Yeah I was asking if you knew of any
obsidian acorn
oh, not on top of my head atm
mystic summit
I know about thr red and blue team field manual but idk if they're entry or anything
obsidian acorn
that's more of an overview, and ethical
you need more practical
you can find out what exactly they do,
mystic summit
Are there public discord servers to your knowledge that treat this stuff?
mystic summit
That sounds cool!
obsidian acorn
yeah, that's my field
mystic summit
Data science sounds fun tbh
obsidian acorn
it is fun, i am going to be learning that too
obsidian acorn
big data is the process of getting the data prior to being processed, as in ml
but sometimes, that is included as well, yes
obsidian acorn
pick one and go for it
along the way, you get bored, and start deeping into the other ones
once you pick one, it is not set in stone for the rest of your life
obsidian acorn
ml is part of BD as well as DS,
a lot of people in Big Data have it backgrounds as well
so, going sysadmin would definitely be a good route
mystic summit
I've asked someone who does sec if he would give me some tips
Told me to install kali and Google for attacks and tutorials, was v helpful
Sysadmin dabbles in all these things?
obsidian acorn
yes, mostly on the security end of things
but not always practical unless you want to go into pentesting
did you ask someone from work? and the person told you that
mystic summit
Yes
He told me the difference between netsec and cybersec
He said that to get started i should get a kali vm and just attack sites that are made for it
obsidian acorn
I will tell you now, that that is a bad idea
mystic summit
Why?
obsidian acorn
one of the first thing you learn in info sec is ethical hacking,
mystic summit
Yeah but if the site is made to be vulnerable and be a playground I see nothing wrong with it
obsidian acorn
which goes into many things, including, hacking someone elses services/networks/sites/machines is illigal and punishable by low
oh, that's what you meant, sites created for the purpose of learning
obsidian acorn
I agree with him, but you want to get started in 3 months, right?
mystic summit
Eh even more, if I can push this contract longer
If I have an objective to work towards it's less degrading
I don't enjoy what I do that much, but the money isn't terrible (still live with my parents) and it's chill
I like to make games and all that jazz too, but that's not something I can pursue
obsidian acorn
because?
obsidian acorn
well, if that is what you want to do, don't let that go, maybe down the line
but in the mean time, find a tangible practical way in, and go from there
mystic summit
Idk what I want to do honestlt
I like too many things
Emulation, games, sec, ml
Sysadmin
obsidian acorn
well, start somewhere and go from there
mystic summit
I can't choose, as soon as I do I want to do something else
daring bay
if you like games then guess whot this does
mystic summit
Car steering
daring bay
yep insaneli acuret
mystic summit
Realistic car steering? 👀
daring bay
the pont is to keep same distance between wheels while make car like steering
this is output
mystic summit
The same distance? 🤔
Oh yeah I guess you aren't rotating an image
Or Sprite or something visible in a way
daring bay
its without rotating just demonstration
but you can easili use thet if you know pygame or some engine good enought
this isnt useful meinli if you want to conect something on weels to your car
mystic summit
I'm not getting one thing
The dist is always 4?
Like, no matter how much it turns?
tidal harbor
I think that dist is the position of the front wheel from the other wheel
daring bay
tidal harbor
Yes. The steering is a separate variable than the front wheel. They both have 4, but that 4 is for defining the different variables. They could have put 6 or 99 in there and it wouldn't change the 4 in the front wheel
daring bay
sorry i do not know how to make screen shot
if you are familiar with GD script this would help
mystic summit
Godot?
That's a nice game engine
Better than unity for 2d imho
Never tried it for 3d
light summit
Hey, is the DataCamp course series for Data Science (career track) any good? Has anyone gone through it?
odd star
@daring bay u using linux or windows?
unkempt ferry
i sorta lost out on a job offer because i don't have professional experience.
it wasn't like a senior level role or anything, and i honestly think I would have been a good fit. It's just a matter of people haven't paid me to do things yet.
Do you have suggestions for how to answer 'what professional experience do you have' that doesn't make them write you off immediately? Because i've built things. Just because I wasn't paid to do that doesn't mean i didn't get the experience.
dire nova
don't say anything about pay
say "I set this goal on this day, and finished it on X day)
money is not important - your work is
real python
Money is not important to the people interviewing you
shy pollen
Sure, it's a good perk if you enjoy the work
unkempt ferry
yeah moneys important for a job but we're talking about just experience
the question was put to me as 'what profesional experience have you had' though. and i can't think of any decent way to handle that?
torpid bolt
not being paid for some work shouldn't invalidate it indeed
unkempt ferry
no worries
torpid bolt
but the question might not be entirel about technical work, professional experience comes also with various things like, answering to a boss, working on a deadline, handling coworkers, possibly clients, understanding the business constraints
etc
shy pollen
Yeah
torpid bolt
i don't know if that was their intent, but it might
torpid bolt
and in this case, if you don't have such experience, it might be interesting to find relatable experiences, if you had group work, engagement to people for something, community work or whatever, that might ressemble the kind of constraint you have at work
unkempt ferry
i'm not sure, it didn't feel like it? I do have work experience in other fields that involved everything you just listed.
torpid bolt
were they aware of that?
unkempt ferry
it's on my resume?
torpid bolt
i assume they had your resume
unkempt ferry
yeah
torpid bolt
ok, yeah
shy pollen
Hm, how much does work experiance in related fields count
unkempt ferry
the question felt like a 'talk about dev jobs you've had'
torpid bolt
ok, well, maybe i'm wrong then, just felt like a possibility
unkempt ferry
idk, mines not really related though i dont think?
well no i don't think you're wrong at all. I think those are definitely skills you learn working at a 'real job' that you don't learn on your own
torpid bolt
though i wouldn't discount the possibility they didn't learn your resume, or just want to double check what you are talking matches
interviewing is not an easy thing, on both sides, and not everybody does it well, especially without having been taught about it
unkempt ferry
im just not sure how to answer with 'irrelevent' work experience i guess?
and also i might be in a mindset that's so tech focused i am inserting that feeling idk.
that's fair. that could be it
i emailed the person back addressing that, maybe something will come of it. thank you very much
analog sinew
what type of career options are there for people who know python
shy pollen
A ton
violet obsidian
Have you like, tried to do any searching at all, or have you hit some kind of wall?
shy pollen
Python is very broad
It's more of a "what can't it do" (sorry for the cheesy expression)
violet obsidian
Because if you can't search for that, then my answer is probably none.
velvet kite
@wanton imp Hello, I'm sorry but we currently do not allow recruiting/hiring in the server. This channel is for discussing the world of work and Python, thank you for understanding
gilded valley
I have some stupid survey to fill in with numbers 1-10 for my skills in various languages. The other people doing this survey are in the same boat as me as first/second year uni students, compared to them I'm very confident my abilities are much pretty good. But compared to an actual dev working with say Python, I recognise that theres still a lot of stuff I have to learn
so am I better off putting 6/7s where I feel like I am in a vacuum, or 8-10s where I think I am relative to the other people applying for this thing?
vast shoal
What is the survey for?
gilded valley
job application thing
not quite a job, but essentially a job
The thing is its used to figure out who I'm working with should I get the job
and I don't want people to think I'm like a super genius or anything
vast shoal
I don't know how it's going to affect your chances, but as an interviewer at a company, I would appreciate an objective assessment.
So I wouldn't want people to put an 8 as in 8 compared to current peers, but rather 6 as in 6 compared to a fully trained and 100% productive senior dev.
gilded valley
Yeah, thats my preference as well. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't shooting myself in the foot and underselling myself
although it obviously depends on the recruiter/company
vast shoal
I can't guarantee that you won't. It's a very silly thing to ask for.
The self-assessment, I mean.
gilded valley
Yeah, I don't see how it can be used to tell them much
a tick box of 'are you happy working with X/Y' would be more useful I think
vast shoal
Maybe don't worry too much about it then?
gilded valley
Yeah I guess I wont
vast shoal
Maybe err on the high side so you don't get filtered out early, but low enough that you can motivate your choice if you get interviewed.
vapid jay
@dire nova The what?
unkempt ferry
Are you recruiting? Because that isn't allowed here.
dire nova
oh I thought that was what careers were for
just read that up top it's not allowed
I can delete if you want
mellow agate
it would be appreciated
woeful spruce
no need to recruit me folks, I am already gainfully employed 😁
trim zinc
Is there a place to find "simple" interviewing questions? a 15-30m exercise?
for example:
Take in an array ex:[1,2,3,4,5,6] and then return a new array with the product of each integer except for the number at that position in the array ex:[720,360,240,180,120]```did it right after I asked*
@mellow agate
mystic summit
If people ask you "do you like where you are working?" What should you answer if you don't like it and don't want to do it?
How do you politely tell your higher-ups that you rather be unemployed that do what you are doing rn? (I don't want to get fired, just change team/role)
I've been there for a week BUT I know for sure that if I don't gtfo now I'll never get out of help desk hell
quasi musk
@trim zinc https://www.dailycodingproblem.com/
trim zinc
Thank you very much!
torpid bolt
@woeful spruce i don't know for you, but being employed absolutely don't stop recruiter from contacting me, and retrying in the following days if i don't answer (which is most of the time)
once they phoned in at the landline of my job to ask to talk to me, then proceeded on trying to interest me in an offer 😄
had to do the professional thing and tell them they screwed up and hang on them
@mystic summit was help desk in your attributions? If not, or if that wasn't clear, you should certainly make it known that's not what you expected and want to transition to something else asap
and if they don't listen, you can start looking for something else, as it's unlikely things will improve
mystic summit
I mean I solved it, in a way
rather, the leader noticed I wasn't like, the right fit in a way, cause they told him I had potential (apparently) and he felt as I couldn't really express it/evolve here
torpid bolt
nice
karmic spear
well now you've learned that interviews are for both sides. That is something that you should clarify during the interview, what would your responsibilities include, what kind of things you will get.
What could be that case is that since you are newcomer the tasks you get are more bug fixing, since it's a good way to learn the system.
mystic summit
I mean I specified a bunch of things:
Since I use public transport I can only do 9-6 or 8-5
That I like unix and network, which I scored highly in the test
That I hate windows (which I have to use bc it's the company's pc)
torpid bolt
i installed (with permission) linux on most company PCs i ever used, keeping windows in dual boot if necessary
mystic summit
If they give me a longer contract I will
But I have to return the pc with win10 stock as I've received it
covert scaffold
Slightly off topic questions, anyone balancing a job whilst going to college, i have to do around 20 hours a week for the job and then another 30-40 hours for college
any tips?
raven mica
@covert scaffold sure, a couple tips - prioritize sleep. Sounds counterintuitive, but when you're underslept all school tasks take longer and produce worse results. The time-efficient way to learn and be productive in general is to protect your sleep and make sure it's adequate in both quality and quantity. Sacrificing sleep seems more efficient because it frees up extra time, but it's actually less efficient in the long run.
Outside of that, the other big thing is to spend your free time thoughtfully. Bracket that time so that it doesn't extend into forever, and make sure you're getting something worthwhile from it. Sometimes that means idle bullshit to unwind, but sometimes I found that after unwinding doing nothing for a couple hours, I felt dissatisfied with that time and wanted more free time. Make thoughtful decisions about how you spend free time. And generally, schedule free time for after other obligations are complete. Don't borrow free time - "I'll have fun now but I'll really get motivated tomorrow to make up for it!" That tactic generally doesn't work. Tomorrow comes and you still don't want to work. Work first, play later. Those are my tips. Some people have gotten good mileage out of documenting the time they spend each day on each category of tasks (i.e. school/work/sleep/recreation/chores or similar), but that wasn't for me.
One last big one for me that helped when I was getting bummed out and frustrated - remind yourself that this overloaded schedule is temporary. For me, any hardship is endurable when I know it has an end date. Getting caught up in feeling like this particular difficulty is forever is when I get down. You can do hard shit for a few years, everything is easier afterward if you do.
carmine summit
raven mica
@covert scaffold sure thing! Good luck, make good decisions and it'll go smooth 🤙
@carmine summit 😎 ayyy
woeful spruce
@torpid bolt no, I don't get called by recruiters, but to be fair, I don't have much of a presence on line
no linkedin or anything else
plus, I'm not a professional programmer by any means
would be nice if I got some more interest though with some offers.....then I would have a legit argument to ask for a raise at work 😎
torpid bolt
well, having a linkedin definitely helps with that
i have a decently paying job in paris, nowhere near the payroll of the valley, but life is less expensive too, but i like the people and the product is nice. but my cousin is really pushing me to join him in amsterdam, for a 40% net increase of earnings, (50% on gross), and i must say it's tempting, Need to see the people, and it wouldn't be a startup anymore, but it's not like i have equity, the only thing i have here career wise is going from lead dev to a higher level as the company grow (fast), but it's unlikely i would get to the same level of earnings any time soon, and even if i was showing them this offer when i have it, i doubt they would follow, as i'm the most senior dev and so one of the better paid (the CTO probably got a raise to match what i get, but i'm not even sure). So it's a bit of a hard decision, i've only been there since december, seems bad to be leaving already.
Life seems to be a little more expensive in AM, but not 1.5x more expensive, and life there seems really nice
woeful spruce
not the worst problem to have @torpid bolt
I would take advantage of your opportunities while the economy is strong but when it comes to relocating to another country, I can understand there is more than just financial improvement at stake
torpid bolt
yeah, rich people's problem i know.
woeful spruce
I prefer to call it in-demand skill people's problem
😁
I live in the US, so here it is common practice to leverage a job offer for more money with your current employer
torpid bolt
i don't have a lot of constraints to relocation, no kid, significant other has no job commitment here.
woeful spruce
that said, I've never done it myself, probably because I never felt the need to as I am not the biggest risk taker
torpid bolt
yeah, but i'm pretty sure the earnings would be pretty out of line with anybody else, it would set a bad example for others.
woeful spruce
I would only venture out if I was unhappy with my work environment at this point in my career
fair enough
I don't know what your employer is like
typically, no one else should know your salary though unless you disclose it
torpid bolt
young company, nice people, mostly younger than me, motivated and all, strong focus on empathy and fun. It's not a bad place to work at, and what makes me hesitant the most is the feeling of letting them down.
woeful spruce
I guess the question comes down to whether you feel your company is as loyal to you as you are to them
because if they are, then you should have good job security as long as they are making ends meet
torpid bolt
It's never in the interest of the boss for people to know each others salaries. I'm not against other people knowing what i earn, it's in their interest to know how they compare to negociate, but of course i don't put that in people's face, i only hint at it if the subject comes up.
that's the big question, would the company feel the same about me if they had to let me go.
i know they let go of people who don't meet their mutually agreed objectives, but that's mostly happened to sales people, for which it's very much part of the deal.
woeful spruce
it is always difficult to predict how loyal an employer would be to you if they suddenly were under pressure to make more money
...and there are many variables to that discussion
torpid bolt
it's much harder to judge for technical people, and they push anybody out in that regard, as far as i know, but they are, like most companies, needing more people they have.
well, we, not they, for the moment, i'm very much part of the team.
yep, not easy.
(and yeah, when i say rich, it's not just money, it's any sort of value, real or perceived, even)
torpid bolt
thanks 🙂
woeful spruce
just remember that you will probably never know which one was the right decision anyways, lol
torpid bolt
will wait to discuss with people at the company and see how the interviews go anyway, it's far from done, although i think the test project i sent them should make them keen on having me.
yeah, true.
marble sonnet
I can't wait to get a internship at Amazon and 40,000 dollar scholarship once I graduate High School
outer steeple
One day I will get my dream job of janitor intern at Valve and then you all will stop laughing at me
vapid jay
Google realeased a IT Support course online, 20 dollars per month
marsh wind
@torpid bolt I heard good things about living in Amsterdam and Netherladns in general even though it is more expensive. btw I am also in Paris now, looking for a position 🙂 do you mind few questions in DM?
torpid bolt
sure!
quasi badger
If you're looking to apply for a school like MIT, what kind of coding projects would interest them
gilded valley
My understanding is that they care far more about grades and other things than a github profile
So you'd probably be better off focusing more on the academic side of life
obsidian zealot
im makin money baby! woot
short crag
torpid bolt
i bought a book on calculus last year, "calculus made easy", it's an old book, i wanted to brush on them, but i read without doing the exercises 😬 it's a lot less useful this way 🐼
gilded valley
It feels to me like pretty much all of maths is dependant on how much you practice actually doing it
torpid bolt
yeah, practice is at least as important as explanations
vast shoal
I find that practice is required when you need to grasp new concepts. If you're just learning new names for concepts you already know, reading can be enough. Like, if you're learning a programming language that's similar to one you already know, it's mostly enough just to read up on the new syntax for concepts you're already familiar with. But if the language introduces a new concept that has no counterpart in any of the languages you already mastered, it might be necessary to try it in practice in order to fully grasp it.
And for most people, math is all new concepts.
gilded valley
In a lot of East Asian countries, there isn't really the idea of 'being bad at maths' like there is in a lot of Western countries - and the reason for that is even if students get stuck at a problem, they will work at it by themselves for much much longer than students in say the US would before asking for help.
torpid bolt
this idea that some people are good at math is one of the remaining artifacts of bad science of the XIXth century, phrenology and such, people still think that if they weren't good at math, it's ok that their children are not, like it's genetic. I understand that math is not easy, it's work, but even if you are not a fast learner, everything can be learned with practice. As the book i have says "what a fool can do, any fool can". 😄
violet obsidian
yep. I'm not good at X = I haven't spent enough time practicing X
vapid jay
You can apply that to anything basically, including programming^
hasty meadow
Is it possible to know php,ruby, c#, c++ and python?
One of job requirements in my country is to have at least 1 year of experience in each programming lang mentioned above
grave gate
It is. I've self-taught programmed for a few years, I sort of know C++, Python, Erlang, OpenCL, a bunch of others. You may be able to pull that off.
pulsar drum
That is a strange job requirement
solemn valley
it is possible to know all of those.....although having understood everything what c++ offers you ist probably something you wont get done in this life
shy pollen
Even many lifes combined cannot comprehend it's greatness
torpid bolt
once you learned a language, a lot of knowledge can transfer to other languages, there are still parts to learn, but it's not like you start from scratch
there are a lot of conceptual similarities between ruby and python for example (but also important differences), c# is a lot like c++, but simpler and in some ways (c++ is a very complex language, i don't think even experts master it all, as there are multiple ways to do a lot of things, they tend to stick to a subset of the language that is enough for what they want), and php well, it's the weird, it's not a complex language as much as a bizarre one.
one year of experience in each is a weird requirement anyway.
vale heart
i think you should apply anyway
and ask them specifically what they need you to do with each of those languages. it might not be too hard to pick up/improve on the ones you dont know so well if you know what to aim for.
vapid jay
Why instead of worrying about how much time you "have" as experience, you don't create projects using these languages, so the recruiter will know what you're capable of?
After some time getting confident with it, you can simulate challenges like create something in 3h, or 1 day idk.
vagrant badge
what app can I develop with django to put on portfolio?
craggy wave
Almost any sort of web app will do. It's usually less about the app itself and more about the skills you showcase in the app. If you're interested in full-stack dev position, show that you have skills in every layer, from the database to how the content is delivered to the users.
halcyon plank
Hey everyone! Actually I need an advice
I am a student and recently started my college. I am thinking of applying for an internship
I have searched several formats of CV Resume for students and all of them seem to involve a field called "Previous Work Experience"
But as this is my first internship am applying to, I don't have any experience yet! So should I just leave that field blank or what should I do?
🙄
vapid jay
I leave it blank but I create a field called "projects". When I was in the technical school I joined some projects, put them in my resume and got a job 😂
gilded valley
What country are you in @halcyon plank
torpid bolt
if you have any previous work experience, even unrelated, summer/student jobs, it's good to put, if not, i would just remove the section, if they ask, be open about it, yes, you have to start somewhere.
velvet iron
Hello, I have the right to choose any (expensive) udacity course to learn, what do you recommend for me, if I want to work in process automation
it is support by my company
I have data analyst nanodegree
gilded valley
When I was applying without any real experience, I jammed what little I had alongside random stuff under the heading professional achievements and work experience - I think thats a good way to let you highlight random events and stuff you've done that are somewhat noteworthy
That was the UK though
unkempt ferry
how many questions do you prepare for onsite interviews?
more details about the onsite. it will b a 30 min cultural interview
halcyon plank
Ok @gilded valley I think I could include in there a Robotics 101 class which I took
vague echo
Hello, I was wondering what are the questions usually asked during interviews on python
unkempt ferry
ok interviews done, feel great about it tbh. but question:
i had 2 one hour tech interviews, each with two interviewers, followed by a 30 min cultural interview with a 5th interviewer. What should i do for thank you notes? one group email? 3 emails with ccing the second person on the first two? 5 individual emails? do you not need to send thank you notes for the 3rd round of interviews?
vapid jay
cultural interview? what sorta companies are these..
I'm not sure if thank you notes are the norm, depends how you came upon their email addresses..
usually, I send a thank you right after or wait two days..
shrewd vigil
I think one blanket email should suffice; so long as you happened upon the email addresses appropriately.
vapid jay
who want to join my worker cooperative ?
we do coding
we are building a website with django backend
rare sand
@unkempt ferry .. thank you notes? that's a thing?
vast shoal
@vapid jay 10. We do not allow advertisements for communities (including other Discord servers) or commercial projects - Contact us directly if you want to discuss a partnership!
keen lance
Is that even a commercial project? I assumed it was more like "let's collaborate on some project and learn Django together"
vast shoal
Worker cooperative sounds commercial to me.
vast shoal
Ok, might not want to use the word "worker" then, it's pretty ambiguous.
torpid bolt
cooperative to me also hints at a commercial project, in france, that's how producers that want to sell their products together call their organisations, instead of competing for the lower price, they put their productions together to sell it at a common price.
vast shoal
It's also an alternative company model where the employees jointly own the company.
turbid prism
Hello im looking for a mentor who possibly can go with me on a discord call and go over some leetcode problems (kind of like an online interview) and give me tips and feedback
vast shoal
@turbid prism Maybe you luck out and find someone who's willing to do that, but if not, you can ask for feedback on specific problems in a free help channel, one at a time.
turbid prism
Okay thank you
unkempt ferry
@rare sand its definitely a thing here. 100% for first round interviews, im just not super sure of if it carries through to the later ones
gilded valley
Where are you based that its a thing? I've heard about it from US folks, but never from UK/EU people
unkempt ferry
im in the us
turbid prism
@unkempt ferry wer did u apply
unkempt ferry
Carta
hexed tulip
congrats to your friend. was the interview process like the videos you see on youtube ?
turbid prism
Nah youtube problems are easy, he gave me a list of 75 questions to master and he can guarantee that I can also land an offer
opal perch