Thats what you think
#career-advice
unreal vigil
vernal lily
london gang ❤ @golden copper
unreal vigil
Id rather die than work in London
gilded valley
Nah. It really depends on what people like. Since people just hate the busy unfriendlybess of London
Some love it
Some people*
unreal vigil
I dislike how dirty everything is, and the tube and stuff ugh
vernal lily
don't touch anything on the tube yeah
literally 20 years worth of dead skin cells
unreal vigil
I mean I can handle it but it’d wear me down if I worked there everyday
main thicket
Disliking London for those reasons isn't a rare opinion in my experience. Pretty similar reasons for disliking other similarly big cities (NYC, Paris, etc)
vernal lily
Paris metro is super nice tho
unreal vigil
Well the thing is I heard NYC is actually much cleaner and nicer
vernal lily
nah NYC dirty as fuk
gilded valley
Off topic
vapid jay
london sucks but i know ill end up working there
indigo sleet
I mean to be fair I literally can't breathe properly in london, so don't mind me
gilded valley
Right?
unreal vigil
O shit
vernal lily
oof
unreal vigil
Get a mask or something gdude
main thicket
Living in a particular city for work is on topic
unreal vigil
Like they have in china
gilded valley
Yeah but in no way is that the context of this conversation
vapid jay
and people who like REALLY want to be in gangs for some reason and thing theyre hard
unreal vigil
Tbh I think it’s a good idea, apparently they’re effective
opal perch
now that's over, @unreal vigil got any other questions regarding uni?
unreal vigil
No, I’m actually feeling a lot better about the whole idea in general so thanks
Just gonna take the leap and do it, worst case I go to Portsmouth, which from the sounds of your friend sounds plenty good enough
gilded valley
Yeah. I think the whole pack of unis like that are all good enough for people willing to work a little
opal perch
@unreal vigil There will be people who dont care for wanting to learn, just dont associate with them and you'll have a better time.
what were your alevel results if I am allowed to ask, you can dm if you want
unreal vigil
I said earlier, B C E
opal perch
sorry I didn't see
unreal vigil
Very bad, but the E has a bit of a story behind it
I only got any offers because of my work experience and self learning to some degree I think
opal perch
mate, shit happens, there will always be ups and downs in life
unreal vigil
Yeah, well that part of my life was just nothing
Had no passion or anything
Climbing back though
ashen summit
hey all quick question
I was recently contacted by a company and was give a phone screen
after the phone screen they wanted me to do a take home test
and hand it to them by last sunday
so I sent it in on Friday to the person who i did a phone screen with (as instructed)
I didnt get a confirmation email or anything, and now it is wednesday, so I just sent a quick email in order to confirm she saw my take home test (a project that took me 40+ hours)
and i found out she is away until Aug 5th
with a 'if this is urgent email this person' autoreply
obv it is not urgent, but I would like to know that my project is being reviewed
what should I do? am i just overreacting
mental aurora
i think you should emailthe other email listed
opal perch
are take home tests meant to last that long though? Surely that seems a bit long
ashen summit
idk, they gave me more than a week to work on it... I definitely went above and beyond though
torpid bolt
That's not very nice of them not to follow up on you
Unless it was unplanned, emergency ”vacations”, someone messed up the process imho
Also giving you a 40h unpaid project as a test is not really nice
But sadly not uncommon
(though i hope it wasn't meant to be that long and you overdid it)
If the job market in your area makes it hard to recruit devs, your process does qualify as urgent
Though i would definitely look into other work opportunities if that's the case
opal perch
I dont particularly think 'overdoing' a home test is a good thing, they can tell that, but who knows
ashen summit
@torpid bolt thank you for being so understanding. I am a new dev and have no professional experience... I have been having a hard time finding a job (coming from a humanities background). so it is generally urgent for me, but I still have a feeling messaging someone when it explicitly says only to do so if urgent can only hurt me
@opal perch I agree
It was not my intention to overdo it, it just ended up happening that way (perhaps i didnt overdo it and i just feel like i did ( as a new dev))
the project was to create a bank api in which you could transfer money internally and externally
i ended up creating two separate banks to show that that was possible (how else to send externally?)
rare sand
as someone who got a home test, overdid it, and impressed everyone and got the job, I will say that this might play out in your favor.
rare sand
depends on the employer of course. sucks they didn't follow up with you but I'm sure it's just poor planning and that person will get in touch once they are back.
ashen summit
thanks for the reassurance... I have decided to wait it out and just keep on applying
rare sand
yep, sounds good to me.
sometimes you eat the 40 hour home test and sometimes the 40 hour home test eats you. or something. no that doesn't work.
point is, don't invest 40 hours if you can't afford to lose them.
ashen summit
haha I know what you are saying. honestly, I learned a bunch through this project, and I think I can put it into my portfolio as well (as some personal learning project). So I think it was worth it either way.
rare sand
but if you can, great! that's the kind of move that might just get you a job with the right interviewers
stick it on github.
rare sand
yeah. that's the situation I was in.
rare sand
and I did the same. threw myself heart and soul into every interview and every home test.
but never really had anyone say "you're a tryhard, gtfo"
seems unreasonable to me.
ashen summit
yeah, I would hope people would not have that attitude.... I am a workaholic so I end up coming off as try hard, when it can actually be a personal problem sometimes
but coming from a uncompleted PhD in medieval chinese religion, I feel i have to pour everything into this because on paper (besides my own self learning and some contracting work) I am unqualified
rare sand
I think "tryhard" as an insult is an insane concept. trying hard is a good thing. I'd rather hire someone who tries hard.
ashen summit
good to know. I hope this pans out.
rare sand
fingers crossed. let us know.
ashen summit
thanks man! I will
vernal granite
i have experience in web design but the problem is im still in high school so no one wants to hire me. does anyone know a good place that hires people still in high school? willing to work hard for minimum wage
rare sand
that's tough. I would say "upwork or something like that" but they probably have a minimum age limit.
it's gonna be hard to find freelance work as a high schooler dev
real plover
If you live in a small~ish town you could go to shops you visit often and show the owners what you've made and ask if they want to increase their business
gilded valley
Local charities could also be a good shout to build up a portfolio of real work to show in the future
vapid jay
Hmm, what platform should I learn if I get into web design?
torpid bolt
Yeah, i'd rather take someone with sketchy qualifications, but showing dedication to achieve (and do their best to do things properly), than someone who knows (or should know) how to do things properly and does the minimum
robust finch
@vapid jay start with some html css js and maybe try django from there if you prefer python
React and angular are pretty equally in demand what I’ve seen / heard
Personally I went to a bootcamp for web dev and I’m in backend so you never really know where you’ll end up sometimes
dire flame
I have currently just finished my first year of sixth form and am writing my Personal statement to be sent off to universities. I was wondering whether anyone here, who may have gone through the same or works in the computing industry would be able to give my current draft a read and give advice on what to change or add in. I have done this with Teachers at school but They dont have any knowledge of computer science and weren't much help. Thanks
gilded valley
I feel like I'm pretty good at that kind of thing and have just finished my first year and an currently undertaking an internship. I can have a look if you like, but there are probably better people in the server. Dm me if you like
tiny wadi
Hi friends, I'm applying to an entry level data analyst position, and I submitted a python technical challenge last week and got invited back for an interview including some code review (and SQL whiteboarding too). Would anyone be able to look through my notebook and offer advice prior to my code review? its a short jupyter notebook where I was only tasked to join some data to form a spreadsheet + notice any outliers, shouldn't take too long
I'd prefer to pm someone the github notebook link for privacy though...
halcyon plank
Hi people!
Ummm..my question might be vague but still..here it is :
DOES ANYONE HERE WORK AT GOOGLE?
vapid jay
I used to really want to work at google when I was like 11/12 and I quickly realised that I am incredibly too dumb for that
halcyon plank
Oh shoot..Don't say that 😂
Actually..it's my dream to work at Google
And preferably at Google New York
rigid spruce
You need to be top 1% of the top 1% , no?
halcyon plank
Seriously..is it that though?
rigid spruce
Idk, that's the impression I get
vapid jay
Yeah the impression I get is you have to be pretty smart, like pretty above average in your field, but it’s definitely possible, it’s not completely unreasonable
If you really worked towards the goal you could do it
halcyon plank
I would be looking for an internship first at Google
I would be joining college this fall
tiny wadi
FWIW my college hada couple of people graduate and go on to work for Google nyc, you need to be very smart yes, but you also need to have unique experiences that set you apart from everyone else who wants to work at google
halcyon plank
Oh okkk
sonic fiber
I've got a buddy who worked for google, said he hated it, he was a contractor though so it might have been different. But basically he kept telling me how everyone who worked for google directly just looked down on him and treated him like trash
main thicket
@halcyon plank Working at Google isn't that hard
Google hires a lot of people lol
Like a lot, all over the world
If you're decent, you have a chance with a bit of effort studying specifically for it
main thicket
For reference, I know a ridiculous number of Google people. They're smart but most are nothing special
vernal lily
there's also google subsidaries like Waymo and stuff
*subsidiaries
I can't spell
and joint ventures like Galvani Bioelectronics, its joint venture between Google (Alphabet) and GSK
vapid jay
@sonic fiber that's the thing about hierarchy.. it exists in forms everywhere.. in Korea, it's by age.. in Japan they have divisions they call 'people who can' and ' can't ' ... in india it's a lot worse with castes.. in other places it's religious sects..
the other thing about working at Google is everyone is super.. and when everyone is super, no one is..
a lot of people experience impostor syndrome..
so your friend shouldn't feel bad.. because shitty people are just bullying others because of their own inadequacies
sonic fiber
He left a few months ago, got a better offer at Facebook with a much better salary. He feels much more at home there
vapid jay
is he still a contractor
or did he move to a permanent role
they're all evil (tech companies).. tell him to take care of himself
thick abyss
@spice geyser that's cool you're in film industry; I was in college studying directing but i left mid-lecture cuz my professor was teaching wrong stuff
I know they're wrong cuz I learned the right stuff on YouTube
tired atlas
Lmao, ok, no offence, I'm not doubting you at all, but that sounds really goofy
"Youtube told me this, so this paid professional teacher must be wrong"
I don't know the context, so I can't say whether or not you were right to do what you did, it just sounds funny given the context I have lmao
thick abyss
I was in Egypt, had an existential crisis what am I gonna do with my life in this 3rd world country, am I gonna be an assistant director and a wage slave or go make my own way in America
Traveled to America, free lanced my way to social security and credit, started a dropshipping career
automated it with code since I already knew lua because when I was a kid I was scripting for video games (cheating/work smarter)
so the mindset of being self-taught made me to just want leave right there and then
didn't think it was goofy
now I direct my own commericals for my own products and businesses, so it all connects
tired atlas
Yeah, that's pretty normal than, it's just the way you worded it at first made it seem like your only reason for leaving was because youtube told you something that the professor wasn't lmao
spice geyser
The way of working in film in the middle east can be... unique to the region.
tired atlas
Didn't mean any offence by it
spice geyser
I worked for a few years in Dubai
thick abyss
but the context was, the professor was describing techenical terms like wide shot, long shot etc and the difference between them; I spent too much time in my free time watching film riot (youtube channel) and other similar channels because I was passionate about the field since I was a kid, I went to college to build upon my youtube and book knowledge but I was disappointed in 3rd world country education
spice geyser
OK right yes i've had people also in MENA region get these specific terms and jargon mixed up too.
vapid jay
MENA?
spice geyser
Middle East and North Africa
spice geyser
Yeah they say long when they mean wide and say wide when they mean long.
vapid jay
ahh.. funny.. you see them as regions.. I see them as languages
spice geyser
The camera is a long way away! So must be long shot! No, it's wide because the shot it wide you don't have a never mind I'm just the sound guy
thick abyss
@tired atlas it was one of those "what am I doing here" moments, I had to dip :D
gut feeling
tired atlas
Fair enough
spice geyser
Yeah but the arab speaking world might as well have 12 different languages. Like lebanese arabic is a million miles away from Egyptian arabic even I can tell the difference
vapid jay
ar-Jo, ar-Ma, ar-Sa, ar-MSA, ar-EG..
sure.. it's what I work on 😛 i'm wondering if they can give me an award for the work I do
tired atlas
Yeah, and I don't know anything about third world country's education systems, if it were in the US, it would have been a bit of a different story I imagine, but I have no clue
vapid jay
to make their languages more understandable
spice geyser
There are some awesome and cool people to work with out there though
I worked with Amr Diab for a week or so, for instance.
thick abyss
Even people here in US they go into debt after college and move back with their parents, it's kinda gloomy; I actually wanted to study at New York Film Academy but I didn't have 40k back then
tired atlas
Yeah
I actually have some neat scholarships that allow me to attend college for next to nothing, but I need to live with my parents during, and commute about an hour there and back every day
thick abyss
and I just realized making it in the film industry is just about connections; you can learn everything there is to learn about film by just working for $100~$200 per day for people, as a PA
then the heavy $1k ~ $5k jobs starts rolling in
spice geyser
That's how film is though, mostly about who you know.
vapid jay
well they shouldn;t be picking shit majors or things they're not sure of
spice geyser
I could be the world's best dubbing mixer but nobody's gonna give me work until they know me and know I can do work.
tired atlas
Oh boy
spice geyser
All the producers I know who are busy network like crazy, it's utterly insane
tired atlas
I'm actually a voice actor as a hobby, hopefully plan to make a career out of it at some point
thick abyss
Yeah I went from nobody in NYC to a guy that was booked for 3 months ahead
tired atlas
While I work towards that goal, I will be working hopefully in computer science
thick abyss
lots of emails and calls, hey can you help us do this or that and that's how it's done just going out there and doing things with and for people
and I guess that's the same for dev gigs too, you've built enough websites to demo for clients and you've got endless projects
I used to do wix websites and charge $100 for them lol
spice geyser
It's the hustle that gets you the work
sonic fiber
@vapid jay Sorry it was pretty late in my time zone
He works directly for facebook now, says it's a much rougher commute and pays a little less, but he gets social benefits now which he didn't as a contractor, and he loves the job.
Basically gets to play with VR all day
chilly elbow
How should I prepare for an interview with the CTO, Lead Engineer and Senior Software Engineer?
obtuse ridge
anyone willing to give a layman an overview of things I can do with combining microsoft access and python?
One of my senior cooworkers is letting me borrow his expensive access book after having a discussion about some projects he needs done
and frankly I'm overwhelmed atm - just normal life stuff but SQL type programs are new and scary!
for context I'm up to learning about how to use queries
reef marsh
is there a specific reason for ms access
pulsar drum
You should be able to connect to access using pyodbc
obtuse ridge
yeah, my cooworker uses that specific SQL program
obtuse ridge
awesome!
pulsar drum
From there you should be able to execute sql queries as usual
obtuse ridge
here's to hoping that getting more proficient at access and being able to combine it with python helps out my guy at work
pulsar drum
Interacting with the db through the ms access program will be quite different than how it's done programmatically
I don't even know if you can use sql through the program
Iirc they have some query builder gui thing
obtuse ridge
yes access does have that!
from what's been presented to me at this point, you make some tables with values and then once you create a query the trick is knowing how to select which tables and which parts of the tables you're looking for
hey i'm pretty sleepy so i'll head out here, thanks for the responses
rare sand
@chilly elbow be prepared to answer technical questions, and questions that go into detail about your experience. you might be asked to solve a problem on a whiteboard. typically the CTO will be interested in how you might fit into the culture of the company, and which soft skills you have. it'd be great if you could demonstrate both.
to impress the engineers, in my opinion, you should be asking questions
ask about their stack. ask about workflow.
chilly elbow
So far I've completed a phone interview, a coding challenge and an in-person interview. I've now been invited by the Senior Software Engineer to have a call with the CTO and Head of Engineering
I'm not sure what to expect. Will it be technical still?
Well, that's a hard question
rare sand
they will probably go through your coding challenge in detail
and ask you about it.
just a guess, though.
who knows.
chilly elbow
That was in the last 2+ hour interview
chilly elbow
I had to walk through it and explain why I did what I did, etc.
rare sand
then I would expect soft skills, personality and culture stuff. seeing if you would fit in.
sounds like you already proved your technical skills.
chilly elbow
I'm nervous about soft skills as I struggle with articulating social thoughts due to being autistic
I'm currently just slowly writing down dot points
rare sand
so you might be asked stuff like.. do you like working in teams? how flexible are you in terms of work hours? work well under pressure? would you participate in social events? what kind of workflow are you used to? test driven dev? do you use a linter and follow style conventions?
chilly elbow
I've compiled a list of questions, too:
rare sand
are you used to CI or CD tools like Jenkins and how have you used them?
do you know how Agile dev works?
chilly elbow
I've been integrating CI/CD into my latest project
rare sand
good. be prepared to talk about it.
chilly elbow
I did have to learn about Agile a while back, but my memory is faded a bit. I know there's user stories and a scrum? Nah, I've forgotten already
Essentially it's for rapid deployment, yeah?
rare sand
other stuff might be - are you good at teaching others? what would you do to unblock yourself if you were stuck?
chilly elbow
Getting the features out to the public, fast
rare sand
you might wanna Google it a bit, essentially most companies will only use parts of Agile in their workflows - the parts they like.
you should know what a daily stand up is. how sprints work. experience with Jira wouldn't hurt.
severe linden
Less about fast, more about iterative. We know only some % of our ideas will pan out so we want to get our feedback loop as small as possible, vs a waterfall project/shop that works with no feedback cycle for months
rare sand
rare sand
if you've made it this far your chances might be pretty good.
hope it works out for you. stay positive and practice selling those soft skills. autism won't ruin your chances, just try to be confident, be genuine, and show passion and interest. ask questions. ask about their stack, their workflow, their culture.
if you don't know something, just admit that.
chilly elbow
I've gotten this far so regardless of the outcome, I'm proud of myself and I've learnt a lot throughout the process
Do you have any opinions on my questions?
• Does [] have a clothing policy?
• What does success look like in this position I am applying for?
• What is your most favourite project you’ve worked on at []?
• What will the physical working environment be like within the new office that’s going to open on the 1st of August?
• How much of your day do you spend programming?
• How is software documentation handled? Who writes it?
• What would the first month in this position look like?
• What software development methodologies does [] use?
• Does [] have any legacy software still in use?
• What's the one thing you wish you could improve or change about your everyday work life at []?
• Are there ever meet-ups between British- and Australian-based teams?
• Do you have any concerns with my resume, answers or application in general?
• What is your favourite book that’s on the topic of technology?
good attitude. 
chilly elbow
(I'm asking the first question as the interviewer wore casual clothes and I wore a suit)
rare sand
don't ask if they have concerns with your resume. I know it's tempting to try to "clear up" any misconceptions but it never works out.
chilly elbow
Alright, I won't do that
rare sand
"what does a month look like" is a huge question and might not be specific enough.
vapid jay
wow those are some good questions
rare sand
but the rest are excellent.
vapid jay
also during interviews they tend to explain that aswell ^
rare sand
might be too many.
vapid jay
in my experience anyway
rare sand
but fit what you can.
chilly elbow
I only pick a few
rare sand
sounds very good.
chilly elbow
It's been my method for the last two interviews basically
rare sand
nice work, always good to be prepared.
vapid jay
better than my method... "do you have any questions?" "nope" 
rare sand
I think you'll be fine. and hey, let us know how it goes, okay?
rare sand
it's just a conversation with some tech people. not unlike this one.
being nervous is the right response.
just means you're human.
nerves exist for a reason. it's just chemicals pumped into your brain to make it more alert and performant. it'll come in handy during the interview. nothing to worry about, just biochemistry.
chilly elbow
I was practising a typical 'tell me about yourself' type of question (that has never been raised so probably won't in this interview), and this was my response. I don't know if it's the right direction:
I’m a recent graduate from [] and have received a [] in Programming. I’ve always been a dedicated worker and have continuously tried my absolute best to achieve good results when it comes to developing software – even in times where there are really close deadlines. Most of the software I’ve created has been personal projects – my favourite being a project called ‘Flask Website’ – which improved my web development skills and exposed me to development concepts such as containerisation, micro-services and Continuous Integration/Continuous Deployment, to name a few.
I don’t let my comfort zone hold me back, so I’m always willing to take on tasks that I might find challenging. An example of this being when I volunteered towards a project sponsored by the Australian Federal government and [] International, which is called the ‘[] Project’ and is situated in []. During that time I worked with a group of colleagues to help install solar panels and computers in developing schools while teaching the students and teachers how to use the computers. We were able to successfully install multiple arrays of solar panels, over 20 computers and fix 5 older installations within 4 schools during the short time we were stationed abroad.
This experience has taught me a great deal about working with fellow colleagues and effectively communicating with other people, even in somewhat stressful environments. I am now eager to expand upon my skills and to grow as a software engineer in a professional environment while being able to simultaneously help contribute towards the transition to renewable energy that is so urgently needed.
I just don't do well with selling myself I guess
I basically say what I know, which is typically tech-related
Not so much soft skills
I have no experience in professional software development, however I did want to include some work experience
It's a renewable energy company as well
Anyway, thank you for your help
You've eased my nerves
rare sand
@chilly elbow 👍 best of luck. you'll be fine.
torpid bolt
just saw the questions too, i wish i had come up with any of them in my previous processes, they are great, and that doesn't look bad for selling yourself, if overprepared was a thing, i'd say you are, but that's not a thing
slate wren
has anyone on here tried to automate their job application process?
placid radish
ooh I'd like to know about this too ^
shy pollen
Build a massive ai that does it and get a datascience job simply because of it
slate wren
well currently im trying to learn natural langauage processing
first thing that comes to mind is try to collect the words and put them in a bag of words, remove the useless ones, train and test the favorable hire words that appease the bots, and then automate filling the personal info out.
but if it were that simple we would see some shit by now
abstract dock
Hey guys so this might be the wrong place to ask this but I started to go through the MIT lectures on youtube on algorithms to prep myself for technical interviews but I'm lacking knowledge of Big O Notation and Time Complexity. Does anyone have any good resources that they would recommend so I can develop a better understanding?
left basin
how much does a python dev cost
i need help with my project
and looking for help```
nimble remnant
🤔
left basin
i was told to come here ;-;
lean sonnet
I plan on making Artificial intelligence startup’s
solemn valley
...soooo?
weak marten
Afternoon everyone, what's the preferred method for referencing your github on a resume? Providing the link or "Github available upon request" ?
weak marten
ty
vapid jay
Do people have their portfolios on a website and link to that website in their CV?
formal sedge
Yes, ime
vapid jay
What kind of things do you include?
vast shoal
Linking to your Github profile is usually enough.
Unless maybe if you're applying for a UX/frontend-heavy position, you might wanna show off some live websites.
ornate knoll
hi there guys I’m kind of newbie do you know a good in person bootcamp to learn python in california?
swift veldt
I would advise you look at Sentdex's videos on youtube to learn python. It's free, concise and free.
mental aurora
not sure referencing videos is ideal when someone specifies in person, though
swift veldt
True but elnem referenced himself as a newbie. Jumpung straight into tutoring seems ill-advised.
mental aurora
@ornate knoll google would help you better here i'd think.. most reputable bootcamps i'm pretty sure have locations throughout the country
that depends on your learning style
ornate knoll
but my style is to be in person with the guy teaching for extract from this all experience, gotchas and tricks, feedback and chides about things in path to learn, I don’t preten to be a master but to be fluent to tackle to create for example my own library (this is an example) so this should be in person prefered, I have seen to s of videos but I always fail to follow them, same happen to books in my case.
if you also know a school like the one in NY for programmers will be awesome the problem with the o e in NY for my is the expensive of the city and my employeer will kill me so that is why I’m looking for something shorten
meager hemlock
Take community college courses
modest panther
Self motivation is cheaper
It requires being around other self motivated people
and a FIRE and DESIRE in your soul
if you don't want to be great. Then it wont happen.
swift veldt
@ornate knoll if you want to find potential tutors, hit up the hackerhours meetup in brooklyn every Sunday, usually at the Commons' Café.
vapid jay
As far as entry level... what type of stuff are employers looking for on a Github profile? A solid grasp of fundamentals? The ability to create / contribute to projects? I don't understand this "learn X language and get a job coding" trend.
vast shoal
@vapid jay I don't think employers are looking for anything in particular, besides reassurance that you are going to be capable of doing the job. Putting up personal projects is a good idea, and the more complete and the better quality, the better.
If you develop something that other people actually want to use, that's great.
Projects that are related, on a technical or conceptual level, to the job you're applying to is probably also a plus.
Contributing to larger projects, like open source projects is good, because it shows that you're able to work with others on a large and complex code base, and it forces you to learn tools like version control and team processes like code review.
I don't know if "learn language X and get a job" is a trend. A professional developer needs to know much more than just a single programming language. Almost all projects involve various languages and technologies, and tools that support the development process.
But learning a language is certainly a start.
Just manage your expectations.
ornate knoll
@swift veldt roger that! even I willing to have a tutoring something like a win-win to people@that know the stuff and people like me that are starving to learn
hollow mantle
Can I get some feedback on my portfolio website? It's a work in progress. I'm planning on applying to a position soon so don't hold back! https://www.coronasoftware.net
gilded valley
I'm not sure if the third person profiles makes much sense as it's only you on the site. But it all looks pretty.
However, if you're applying for jobs, shouldn't it be more a personal site than a business site?
hollow mantle
All the guides I've read use the third person so I just went with it
gilded valley
Also, the broken contact page isn't great. Have you considered just making it a single page site?
And losing the contact form
hollow mantle
That would make sense if it were purely for a portfolio, but I also need it for a spot to reel in clients. Maybe I should just make a seperate, dedicated site for the portfolio?
gilded valley
Worth noting I'm on mobile and it all seems to scale well and look nice. Two separate sites seems to make sense to me
waxen kestrel
Is a degree necessary to becoming a data scientist
hollow mantle
🖐
vast shoal
@waxen kestrel From what I've heard, yes.
empty garden
certainly helps
vast shoal
You may be able to get hired in a supporting or technical role to a data science-related project without a degree, but actual data scientists I think tend to be pretty much exclusively PhDs and the like.
opal perch
or at least masters ^^
north hatch
Time to learn java now. 😄
unreal vigil
throws up
paper tulip
good lord
I hope I never have to code in java ever again
public static void main can kiss my ass
mild zenith
Not really relevant to this channel
reef marsh
yep
pick on what you want to do in the future first
read about it
and look for technologies you need to familiar yourself with
dont blindly follow "learn python coz it's cool" for example
to be a web dev, pick up js and html first before backend languages
for database stuff, pick up sql first
so on and so forth
data science
then you need to do lots of math lol
ye it's a very fun and daring field
not so much on the code side, more so on the math and theorem side
yep, you can
for example, basing on 10k x-ray images, build a model to judge check and predict the % of patient having certain problems
such as lung cancer
lemme find the image
of another example
it'll require image processing
then a fittnig models, how to prepare samples etc
making games is also fun, if you're good at 3d animation look into unity, and pick up cpp instead
if you love coding more than doing stuff, cpp is a good choice, teaching you programming the harder way
ye it has lots of application outside of gaming as well
python is fine, it will spoil you though
python is a scripting language, emphasize in dev time ( less code need to write, small talk-type, easy to read and maintain )
which means it will fail in certain departments such as extreme performance
multiprocessing / parallel programming is considered anti pattern in python coz of its GIL
it's an old language, when there's only 1 single core
global interpreter lock
you'll run into it a lot if you start doing threading / multiprocessing
on the plus side, the community is huge, there are lots of library so 99% of whatever you do, you're reinventing the wheel
and because it's scripting it can run on lots of platforms
you cant really gain that fine control over processes / threads like in other languages im afraid
you can do parallel processing still, yes
tbh the thing that'll stick with you the most is the programming logic
syntax can change, but those, rarely
cant really say, there's no tests to rank students, there are due projects
prob better, coz I start programming much earlier
i never ran into any trouble in any of the projects
no much earlier
4th grade
tricked by my teacher
i started learning pascal since then
well we were introduced to computers
and i was good with typing
teacher: hey, wanna learn something cool?
me: sure
teacher: i'll teach you how to make computer do what you want
me: awesome
it was a mistake
there's no curve, new technologies are out everyday, gotta keep myself updated
the field is huge, I know lots of stuff in certain field but not other
I do know how to read stuff and look up information though lol
during college, mostly
heck, even now lol
the thing I pride myself upon is that I dont feel "ugh" when I have to deal with new problems
for example there were a task to communicate with an external scale
and get the weight as you put something onto it
it required some port listening + cpp skills
well SO is old, what you wanna ask is probably already answered
if you can ask something they have never seen before, either it's a very new technology or you're stepping into a magical land
SO is a place where they expect you to have certain knowledge / seaching skills, much like discord.py server
It can get frustrated at times
but once you get it going, you realize it's a giant treasure island lol
it's a good idea to replicate what others did, but remember, dont reinvent the wheel, your precious time is better spend learning something else / building something instead
it is, but dont always too strict on yourself
for example do you know how python handles threading
if you have to build a system to communicate with the cpu to handle threading
where would you even start
like, are we going to redefine how computer gonna do 1 + 2
i also doubt you can google that haha
python docs doesnt explain behind the scene stuff
you will never see their garbage collector
which is among things some dev in python wont know about unless they look deeper into C / come from other languages
it gets tough when you see no docs, isnt it
you cant invent something you have no information on?
nah not entire python
but my point is that we're already using what we can and given to us
others' functions, on SO, are refined and often is the correct way to do it
you are not forced to use it, you can totally write another with different logic too
but remember, it's a trade-off of developer time
which is much more precious
for learning purposes, try to take on programmer's challenges instead of reinventing functions
learning how to build a blogpost with only flask
there are a lot of articles on python idiom and such
to know if you're losing performance or not you need more knowledge
like why a + b + c + d + e is slower than ''.join(a, b, c, d, e), for strings
sometime less obvious, why list(tuple) is faster than [x for x in tuple]
there are resources pinned around the servers too, and I recommend some more
And ofc, PEP8
yep, you need profiler to know what exactly is going on
actually look at the assembly instructions
fringe horizon
@reef marsh how come
'a' + 'b' + 'c' + 'd' + 'e' is slower than ''.join('a', 'b', 'c', 'd', 'e')
considering that
'a' + 'b' + 'c'
Produces
1 0 LOAD_CONST 0 ('abc')
2 RETURN_VALUE
whereas
''.join('a', 'b', 'c')
produces
1 0 LOAD_CONST 0 ('')
2 LOAD_METHOD 0 (join)
4 LOAD_CONST 1 ('a')
6 LOAD_CONST 2 ('b')
8 LOAD_CONST 3 ('c')
10 CALL_METHOD 3
12 RETURN_VALUE
?
reef marsh
coz
string interning
you did not think of memory
'a' + 'b' + 'c' actually intern ab into the memory as well
fringe horizon
what does that mean ?
@elder talon well no, as you can see in my code the 'a' + 'b' + 'c' is optimized away into a single constant loading
fringe horizon
@reef marsh this is not concatenating constant string as your example
reef marsh
try using non constant outside of alphabets
fringe horizon
'a' + 'b' + 'c' + 'd' + 'e' is slower than ''.join('a', 'b', 'c', 'd', 'e')
fringe horizon
🤷
reef marsh
I admit i typed it wrong, constant will be faster
let me edit it into a + b + c + d + e is slower than ''.join(a, b, c, d, e) for strings, is that ok
fringe horizon
sure 😄
reef marsh
edited, ty for the notice
real python
Let's maybe not do this in the careers channel
real plover
Are we allowed to discuss companies that are offering job/internship opportunities here?
Talking about the Dropbox thing
vivid dock
Discussion about it should be fine, but not anything that resembles recruiting
real plover
So I shouldn't link to the page for anyone interested?
I'm just wondering if they were doin this to actually find a hidden star or to increase their rep. Seems like a good idea either way. Get to pay less for work done and find any future employees by limiting it to non CS grads
vivid dock
Doesn't sound like recruitment to me
real plover
They call it a 6 month paid apprenticeship with a chance for full time after that time is up
Have you guys seen companies do this often? I'm talking about requiring non CS graduates or people without previous work experience in the field
vapid jay
I've seen this before - It's rare (at least where I'm located) and some times a major risk for companies. If you prove yourself worthy and the company isn't scummy you're pretty much set for a very well paid job after said 6 months 😃
real plover
Why would it be a risk for the company? Poor work completed maybe? Seems like a win win. They get publicity for looking out for the little guy, they get work done for less, and they get a potential new super employee
vapid jay
Key word potential
Which makes it risky. They might as well be wasting their time instead of just hiring a guy from the get go
That is suited for the job in the first place
real plover
I mean there's also a risk in hiring employees right off the bat too. Seems to balance out. Pay less for a trial run that might not work out or pay full price for someone with actual experience right away that may be less experience than they appeared
vapid jay
Pros and cons for both - Either way I'd say in my opinion at least that there is always a higher risk employing someone that don't have previous work experience in the field.
I don't mind the way of hiring this way tho, as most people who are applying for these positions (again in my area) have a genuine interest and want to learn which make them a great asset for businesses that might not be able to pay right of the bat for a full time employe. But then again if they hardly show up to work or don't produce anything usefull you're kind of screwd some times as a smaller company
molten spoke
Sorry @vapid jay but for one we are a Python community not a Haskell one, two this channel is for Python career advice and three we don't allow recruitment.
cinder belfry
@reef marsh
sometime less obvious, why list(tuple) is slower than [x for x in tuple]
is it?
reef marsh
@cinder belfry yes but the other way around, I’m sorry I wasn’t really awake when writing that. List() is faster instead, I’ll edit it
cinder belfry
ah
wasn't sure if there was something weird going on maybe for a certain size of tuple
reef marsh
list() is written entirely in C
cinder belfry
of course, faster is [*tuple]
tiny wadi
Interviewed for two hours at a mid sized startup last thursday... not hearing back by now is uh, not a great sign right?
vernal lily
too early to tell
tiny wadi
In hindsight I guess I shouldve asked next steps, but I got handed off from head of HR to data science people and didnt think about it sending my followup thank you email
Okay thats fair thanks
torpid bolt
if even polite lamas don't send a thank you email anymore, what has happened to the world?
tiny wadi
I did send one! I messed up my phrasing, sent the thank you email along the lines of "looking forward to hearing back" instead of asking what the next steps were
chilly elbow
@rare sand I got the job c:
vapid jay
I have a question, is Python used in Networking anywhere, like for a System Admin or Data Infrastructure etc.?
The company am about to join is putting me in that department.
rare sand
@chilly elbow congratulations!
torpid bolt
@vapid jay python is used for everything. Not a network guy myself, but a lot of sysadmin tools use python, as soon as it's more than 20 lines of bash, you are usually better of starting over in python
vapid jay
Thanks @torpid bolt
But what Python concepts tools are used by these admins.
Can you pls give some topic/module name or example.
Thanks again
rare sand
the os and pathlib and sys modules, stuff like psutil, maybe fabric, maybe salt or ansible..
any kind of automation will be common
learn cron, learn systemd..
and how to get python to play well with those tools.
and even if you learn all that, it'll only scratch the surface.
really, using python as a sysadmin is all about making use of its versatility and using the language creatively.
Automate The Boring Stuff with Python is a book that teaches some good fundamentals for automating things. you gotta learn to think automation everywhere.
torpid bolt
rose bronze
Guys how to land your 1st job as a fresher in data science in python? Every org seems to recruit only those who have 2-3 years exp. How do I get that exp in data science job?
opal perch
Yea but the key point there was fresher @vapid jay, which means they might even have it that 'degree' is a requirement. @rose bronze You just have to try and do internships mate, even if its not exactly data science but something similar, like image processing or whatever. But like cinnabar said, just apply apply apply.
first year of uni
Yea that would be my best guess? That's what I did, I was also first year of uni and I just applied for internships, everywhree, even if it said minimum 4 semesters completed, or final year necessary
rose bronze
uh sorry by fresher i meant just completed my bachelors
i.e. fresher to the corporate world
yeah im starting to lose hope at this point
already applied to ~60 orgs
rose bronze
torpid bolt
any personnal project you have that might show your skills?
@rose bronze did you do cover letters for these applications? i do remember, when i needed to apply, that it made a difference, how much time you spent studying the org and explaining why you would be a good fit to them, talking about your interests and work ethics, etc (edit: damn, can't type today)
(when you have experience, you have the opposite — and better — problem, people try to get you out of your job and into another all the time)
vapid jay
i love writing cover letters
torpid bolt
they really show it's not a random application, that you looked into the company you understand what they do, how they do it, and that you'd really like to help
sure, it takes more time, you do less applications, but they are higher quality, much better chance of success
they also show that you actually know how to write, which is a very real skill
vapid jay
@rare sand thanks Bhava I will look into it, Maybe I can use it depending on nature of actual work.
heavy kelp
I'm a highschooler with a decent amount of programming experience in Java, C#, Python, and C++
Going into junior year
What should I be doing to let colleges know that I'm bright for my age
Knowing how to program at a high level and such
Should I be showing off a github with projects with components and such? My GPA isn't so great cause I don't really try much in school and I'm lazy with studying, it's like 3.7 weighted but my dream school is UIUC because it's close by and a great school for computer science, one of the best in the nation. I have around a 1500 SAT, been studying to get higher, and if I do well in school I can bring my weighted to at least a 3.9 hopefully, and maybe even higher senior year.
And I know reqs for that school are at least 3.9 GPA, and I'm definitely trying to step it up and get into the school
But what can I do outside of school to show the colleges that I know programming at a great level
I was thinking about making a mobile app, start doing stuff like that
fringe horizon
@heavy kelp I do not know about US specifically but I am 99% sure Unis do not give a shit about your GitHub projects, they are going to select you according yo your GPAs, current school reputation, and SAT scores
heavy kelp
Well that definitely sucks for me
fringe horizon
Education instutions select people according to education information, so yeah, if you want to get a good Uni, work more to improve your results in school and exams
heavy kelp
So I can send my gpa after 1st semester senior year
to go the highest i can
i can get to like 4.05 or 4.1 by then and submit that
and i have a 1500 on an official sat, going to go for anything higher
rotund vapor
build up your projects for your resume. that will be an important factor for getting a job at a tech company. but yea i'd agree with Solon that universities don't really give a shit about ur personal projects
heavy kelp
@rotund vapor You think they would care about extracurriculars regarding computer science?
rotund vapor
tbh i completely forgot what the process is like. if they ask for it then by all means include it
but from what i remember gpa, sat score were the big ones
if you're trying to get into a dedicated tech school and they ask then probably
but i think a lot of public schools like UC's look for well rounded ppl
real plover
Get some recommendation letters from teachers that might know someone from the school or that teaches what they specialize in
safe citrus
Any interesting examples of portfolio projects? I made video game automation for fun and I'll add that but I want something else too, something crypto related maybe? open to any ideas or inspirations 😄
It should depend on me but I wanna hear some ideas
craggy wave
Do you know in which direction you're heading? What kind of jobs are you looking to apply for?
Say, if you want to apply for a full stack position, having a project that involves a back-end may be interesting.
Showing off something that works with a database may beneficial anyway
grave gate
Okay for a University of California you use Transfer Admission Guarantee, but that is for when you're in a community/city college. I'd have to look into it more but I am unsure of what helps you as of now. You could even go into a California State University and that'd probably be easier to get into. I only had goals for a UC because I was pushed into a mindset that overworked me, although I would still like to take that uni path for warming up my semiconductor mindset. I am eager to help people with researching things too, I've always been keen on reading reference over fiction.
I may be wrong.
wanton wharf
I'd say SAT and GPA are the most important and for public/liberal arts your personal essay/statement should be unique/eye-catching in the first 2 sentences
Realised my username is inappropriate in this server lol
grave gate
Before I sip my morning coffee, don't home in on a single college, but scatter so you can have backup plans. Make a flexible education plan.
wanton wharf
^true, tbh most unis have the same learning objectives and the only advantages are the name recognition. Try to find a balance between a recognisable school and finances for the school (in state tuition and grants/ scholarships/loans)
safe citrus
@craggy wave I plan to do random tasks at freelance platforms (and later hopefully full job/contact) so full stack probably, the more stuff I will know the better
For specialization, I think backend is cool yeah, but automation and such seem interesting too
I've also written API to csv data visualization or whatever before
torpid bolt
you can do both
just because you have an interview doesn't mean you should stop looking, if multiple things turn up, you have choice, choice is good
it doesn't mean you are not interested in the first job, it's that you want to be sure you are making the best choice, you don't want to default to a company, you want to chose the best opportunity for you
heavy tusk
was curious what are chances of getting a job without even having college degree or not even having any college experience
just certificates in the field
ofcourse i mean python , html java script etc
torpid bolt
depends of the demand for devs in your market i guess, if there is, and you can demonstrate competency, you should be able to
late steeple
I need some help choosing my path
opal perch
well what do you enjoy? or feel would be an interesting job?
late steeple
Well.. I actually don't know
vapid jay
Pick something that seem interesting then
If you don't enjoy it, pick something new 😃
I know tech people who have changed field completely and ended up in stuff like gardening etc
opal perch
I knew a guy who got his cs degree from a top uni, but now wants to become a police officer
late steeple
Oh.. wow
vapid jay
😂 People change! You just have to adapt to what you enjoy in life unless you want to become that old grumpy guy that hate his work and eventually life
halcyon plank
Hey there people..I had a question..might be silly but here it is 😅
I want to be a software developer..like to develop apps for pc or phone
And I was thinking to learn python and Java for this
So are these two languages enough or do I need to learn css, Javascript along with these
halcyon plank
Umm..what in anything else?
Can you once check this link
This guy says that if I want to do some projects after completing my basics, I need to learn Javascript or Flask
vernal lily
uh for web stuff yeah
vernal lily
making websites / making webapps / making webservers that either host new webapps or websites or interact with existing ones
vernal lily
webapps specfically run in the browser
like in google chrome or firefox
that require an internet connection
mild zenith
An example would be something like your bank's or credit card's website
halcyon plank
Can you suggest one?
mild zenith
Python, Java, C#, Rust, C/C++....
halcyon plank
Like the most popular one?
mild zenith
It's hard to suggest just a popular one
It's more a "right tool for the right job" kind of thing
Some languages are just better suited for certain tasks
Python has the advantage of being a good general language, it can do a lot of things
rancid pumice
How can I get a roadmap ?
vernal lily
IDK if there is a python roadmap
shy pollen
Or does he mean an actual map for driving 🤔
rancid pumice
Like there is roadmap for web development, software engineer, sth like that, cuz I'm lost and dunno what I'm doing
shy pollen
Not sure what you mean by a roadmap in that sense
vernal lily
a reasonable roadmap would be:
- read some beginner books like "Automate the Boring Stuff" and "A Byte of Python"
- try some basic tkinter and flask projects using tutorials
- move onto more "advanced" libraries like Pyside 2 and Django + read intermediate books like Fluent Python
- start contributing to open source projects and making larger long term projects
rancid pumice
Roadmap is like that there are things lined up in which that I have to learn one by one to be as good to get a job
mild zenith
There really isn't a "do these things to get a job"
rancid pumice
@mild zenith yes but don't we need specific experience?
vernal lily
the biggest factor is whether you go to university or not
because the paths for graduate and non-graduate are very different
mild zenith
A degree is going to be your biggest boon in the job hunt
vapid jay
I am feeling suicidal
rancid pumice
I go to university, I'm in first year in 2nd semester, but I need money
vernal lily
non-graduate does need a lot of experience and evidence of ability
graduates from a good course can get python jobs with little to no python knowledge if they get onto a graduate scheme
vapid jay
I am crying
mild zenith
@vapid jay Then you need to talk to family or contact a help line. This really isn't the kind of server that can help you with that.
I'm sorry
rancid pumice
@vapid jay what happened
mild zenith
@rancid pumice You're going to be incredibly hard pressed to find a quick programming job to earn money
You might just have to bite the bullet and work retail or something in the meantime
vapid jay
I got joining letter from a company,
One he cleaned my documentation am a fresher
Everything went fine, I just got mail from Background Check department that I have have a gap in my education in yr 2013 saying I need
vernal lily
if you want quick programming work
I recommend local freelance webdev
it won't pay well per hour though
like, overall you may make below minimum wage easily
if you count all the hours spent
rancid pumice
@mild zenith Retail here pays $80 in month for 8 hours a day
vapid jay
To provide gap certificate or supporting document.
I don't have a gap, I did my 12th with 53% so I got admission to direct second year diploma .
It's complected...
T
rancid pumice
Even lower I guess
vapid jay
They have eligibility criteria of more than 60@% in 12th
rancid pumice
@vapid jay stop playing games and Work your a$$ off from now on then
vapid jay
Am not sure if that HR will clear me or not, I already got an employee id. I don't want go back now
vapid jay
I feel pressure, my parents have hopes for me.
I have quit gaming for years..
rancid pumice
How old? And where from?
opal perch
@rancid pumice And people can pay you minimum wage for coding if you're super inexperienced(if you get hired). Just bite the bullet and go retail or cafe(you at least get tips) or soemthign else . Some money is better than no money
vapid jay
I don't know what will happen...am crying heavily
opal perch
@vapid jay just try and explain your situation as best as you can, if you've made improvements in your life/work ethic since that year where you got 53%, show that to them.
vapid jay
Yep I made clear record after that.
I have 72% in my Diploma and 7.26cgpa in my degree.
Which is enough for my eligibility criteria
opal perch
then explain that to them, theey will appreciate the improvement you've made
I find it unlikely a company will screw you for a high school year when you've received a diploma since then
vapid jay
Am not sure if they need 60+ for 12th as well.
They probably think I had a year Gap in my Diploma becaz I did Diplo of only two years instead of 3. As I should because I am allowed to becaz I have completed 12th so Direct second year admission to Diploma. No first year.
I didn't mention my 12th to them.
I have most unique case......
I mention my 12th, they might reject me becaz of low %.
Or accept, considering I have a sort of diploma equivalent to 12th and acc
It's very complex, depending on HR
I just feel so depressed and overpressure I needed to share .....
Sorry guys
I will go with truth, explain them everything they want to know.........
Whatever happens.
Thank You so much guys.
You are legends, I hope you find success.. thank you.
@opal perch @rancid pumice @indigo sleet @rancid pumice @vernal lily
Thank you.. I feel better now..
rancid pumice
Goodluck man!
opal perch
@vapid jay let us know what happens man, feel free to dm me at any point if you need someone to talk to 😃
vapid jay
@opal perch I will definitely inform you guys.
Thanks
abstract dock
@vernal lily wow I legit did majority of those things.
-started w atbs and finished cover to cover
-created a discord bot
-learned flask and made a couple apps w flask
-went through cover to cover of fluent python
-went through django tutorial and made a blog
things i am currently doing/plan on doing:
-currently working on lil alien invasion game from python crash course and get familiar with pygame while I focus and study data structs and algos from runestone
-attending meet ups to find a 1or2 ppl to build a project together then after my 3rd official project and im comfortable with ds & a - i will start applying for jobs again forreal this time
seems like im on the right track, thanks for the spill @vernal lily 🙏
torpid bolt
that seems like a very good track
abstract dock
sweet thanks guys c: i'll try to keep you updated where im at in a month-2months from now
sharp vale
I got a single reply to 30+ applications I sent despite me having commercial experience, got a test project from them, got rejected and told there were 400 applicants for that position
holy shit i gotta relocate
if entry level jobs have 400 applicants each
torpid bolt
that there are many applicants is not a great reason to be rejected, did they tell you what you would have needed to make it to the top of there 400 people?
naive dust
web dev is the optimal path for freelancing?
keen parrot
neon moat
anyone who doesn't have a degree and is self taught, the bottom line is, it is tough out there
If this truly is a career you want to pursue then you need to understand you need to go above and beyond what would be required if you had a degree, you need a portfolio of good projects and you need to ram them down potential employers throats, contact owners of small companies directly with a good cover letter explaining who you are and what you have created with python and how you are keen to learn and contribute
Attend meetups in your local area and get networking, no one is going to hand you a job
if you keep at it you will get a job eventually
final thistle
I've been told it's hard with a degree as well if you have nothing to show off
which makes sense
clear cipher
I got a BA in CS, havent tried looking for a programming job but I defiantly struggle with it. Probably am gonna take the easy road and be a sys admin 🤷
abstract dock
@neon moat are you self-taught?
neon moat
@abstract dock yes
hollow mantle
The key is being genuinely interested and excited about learning new things with programming. You won't make much money at first so that can't be your drive, you'll just burn out.
neon moat
@hollow mantle I agree, but there is a lot of politics involved within companies and the majority of companies and people who are in charge of deciding who to interview / recruit will be people with formal education backgrounds
They are the people that believe a degree is the one and only route
which is why you have to go above and do more to seal your first job
gilded valley
'You won't make much money at first so that can't be your drive' that's not necessarily true, there are certainly high paying entry level jobs
neon moat
^
hollow mantle
So far every interview I've had hasn't even mentioned education. It's not a big deal in this field as long as you can prove you know what you're doing.
neon moat
I think a lot of self taught people have to just get that first company on their CV
@hollow mantle which country r u in?
hollow mantle
usa
gilded valley
Yeah, my understanding is that you need a degree or experience to get a job. So without either the first job is incredibly hard
neon moat
@hollow mantle i'm in the UK, so there are much more stereotypes here in regards to education
hollow mantle
I started out freelancing and made like $14 an hour at the start lol
neon moat
from what i believe anyway
hollow mantle
Yeah I can't speak for outside the us
gilded valley
I doubt the US and UK are very different in terms of education expectations
hollow mantle
There are definitely people have that stigma towards self-taught, but imo they aren't the people you want to work for anyway
gilded valley
Again, a company won't hire or even interview unless you can show basic competence via experience or a degree, or if you're lucky some other way. All the people I work with without degrees were very lucky
But once you're started I haven't seen anyone mention a stigma
hollow mantle
Never encountered it personally, just seen it mentioned before.
gilded valley
Actually, not necessarily lucky, just very dedicated
neon moat
i agree, but as self taught you need that first bit of experience
hollow mantle
It doesn't have to be professional experience though
gilded valley
Yeah, that's the biggest challenge
hollow mantle
Open source contribution and personal projects are good too
gilded valley
Realistically it does, most recruitment places don't want to sift through your github for the first step of filtering cvs
neon moat
in the UK its non-technical people that sift through the CVs first anyway
so they dont know what github code even is
gilded valley
Pretty sure that's the case everywhere
neon moat
which is why i think you have to contact someone directly within a company with a good opening letter
gilded valley
Like it has to have a big number associated with it. Like a popular npm package with 100s of thousands weekly downloads, or a heavily downloaded app
hollow mantle
Not sure why they'd have to sift through your github anyway. "Two years experience open source team collaboration on x, y, z projects" seems good enough to me
gilded valley
Need a number associated with it to be meaningful. The hr guy doesnt know if this random open source thing is good bad or otherwise, they don't know how much you contributed
Like, I know 17 year olds who can say exactly that and who can't code for shit. Just bug fix and maintenance stuff
neon moat
@gilded valley yes, the battle is getting in the door
neon moat
@gilded valley i had an interview the other day for a finance company who has been interviewing graduates since beginning of year, told me straight that the people they have been interviewing dont know what a POST and PUT request is...
for a python web development role
neon moat
i mean, asking basic knowledge questions like that, do we even need to bother with a fizzbuzz test?
lol
vernal lily
TBH its still in 2019 worth
employers doing fizzbuzz test
cos people still fail it
final thistle
it doesn't have to be face to face, I think
neon moat
ive never done a fizzbuzz test for an interview process but i think it shows you have fundamentals
neon moat
agreed
gilded valley
Most big companies have assesment centres for graduates where they can filter based on a range of stuff - like they usually involve both a whiteboardy coding style activity to demonstrate a basic level of competence, as well as something team based to show that you aren't just rubbish at working with people
neon moat
i think whiteboarding tests dont always represent actual practical programming ability?
depends what they test
vernal lily
whiteboarding is pretty different feel to coding on a computer yes
also in real life you always can look up docs and algos
gilded valley
Every senior engineer I speak to in person tells me data structures and algorithms are entirely irrelevant to actual software development
neon moat
i think its easier to catch people out with verbal technical questions of how a certain protocol or piece of software works
gilded valley
So its more about ensuring that someone can learn something to the necessary degree
and DSA is just the common something to ues as a metric
vernal lily
Every senior engineer I speak to in person tells me data structures and algorithms are entirely irrelevant to actual software developmentfor the most part yeah for typical web app or corporate app
for more specialist stuff like game dev or scientific programming algo knowledge comes in more
its hard to generalise over many different types of software
gilded valley
Yeah, thats true, everyone I speak to is generally from a generic corporate/webdev place rather than anywhere that specialises in some specific thing
torpid bolt
it's irrelevant until it's not
but most of the time it is
when it's not you are in big trouble if you don't see it
gilded valley
Can you give an example of where it might be relevant if say web dev?
torpid bolt
web dev just means you are representing your UI through web technologies, html/css/javascript, what you represent can vary a lot, if you are simply pushing the content, no computation, very few will matter, if you are crunching data in the backend before pushing it to the front, there are more chances to matter
but if you are doing a lot of work in your UI (js), data structures might matter, as you don't have a lot of power to work with, and you might not want to constantly call the backend for computations you could do on the front, in such case, sorting through big lists of data, computing graphs with them, or just displaying them efficiently, the way you structure your data will make your app fast or slow, by allowing you to do efficient algorythms or not.
vapid jay
hello guys
i want to know what things i should know about Python to get a job
or the requirements to land a job as a Python software dev
gilded valley
In no respect am I saying you're wrong, but take a react based crud app backed by a whatever based rest backend, this is a super common tech stack, but none of the efficiency optimisations I see involve much dsa style stuff @torpid bolt
Like even with large data, what processing are you manually implementibg
It's almost always abstracted away by some library, and you don't need the dsa skills to identify when to make those changes. As long as you have the ability to learn them should they come up, I see no practical advantage to learning them
torpid bolt
not by the react part, most of the time, but it's just the UI, and a lot of web services do a lot more than that.
at my company we do a B2B service, it's not an insane amount of number crunching, but the person who started it used mongodb, because it was easy, and didn't really plan the scheme for performances (or at all), so we really can't migrate to postgres fast enough now, some things are just impossible to make fast this way
and i agree libraries do most of the heavy lifting, as they should, but if you don't understand the implication of how your data scheme will force the DB to implement a request, you might be in for quite some pain
like said, it's not important until it becomes so, which is not very often in most software
vapid mesa
Yo uh
Does work experience in cyber security (specifically ASV scanning) "count" for software engineering related job interviews?
abstract dock
@neon moat that's firee! Appreciate the tips. will most definitely take note of them as I have been self teaching myself for the past 5 months.
im not a genius but i have been working my ass off - made a ton of sacrifices to make time to study. i need to change my careers bc my degree i got is completely non-technical and I don't want anything to do with it... lol
i took on the 100 day code challenge and then my ocd kicked in and i haven't skipped a day yet and honestly at this point, i don't think i will until i get employed... ppl mentioned be careful of burning yourself out and yadayada but like that shit dont really phase me because i have nothing to go back to so this is what i need to do
i've heard from several devs that github can play a big factor and because I lack a cs degree and a bootcamp cert. i been making my github green as hell to show employers that i actively learn and code every single day
its pretty awesome to hear from somebody that taught themselves and got their foot in the door - it just motivates me even harder so ty for that c:
vast shoal
@abstract dock If the pace you're going at works for you, that's great. Just make sure you take care of yourself and take note if your body starts telling you you're working too hard.
And, pushing to Github frequently is all well and good, but what you're putting on there is even more important. Make sure you're using your time efficiently and work on projects that expand your horizons and actually challenge your understanding of coding. Employers probably aren't gonna care too much if you just put a thousand small exercises on there.
umbral valley
@gilded valley it can be important to know which library / dB / whatever to choose. Like, you should realize “hey this is a graph problem” or “this would be a perfect use for a hash table”, etc. data structures are pretty rare to implement by hand in the corporate world, but not knowing how they work can lead to bad decisions and lack of understanding how things work, which will hurt down the road.
vast shoal
Yeah, to be honest I find it rather surprising someone would claim that data structures and algorithms are irrelevant to software development. In my experience I feel like it's more like it's one of the key factors that separate good developers from mediocre ones.
umbral valley
I understand it to an extent, because it is largely abstracted now and is easy to forget why you were able to make certain decisions, but it’s still useful
vast shoal
You can probably get by in a lot of situations without having a good understanding of DS&A, but that's only assuming there are libraries that solve your problem. If there aren't, you're going to be struggling. And, sort of like you mentioned, I find that it in order to make good decisions about how to apply a given abstraction, it takes good working understanding of the abstraction level below the one you're working at. And this is all sort of my point. You can survive without understanding DS&A, but you're going to be at a disadvantage compared to others who do.
umbral valley
For sure. Depends a lot on the field too, like I work in static analysis. So I probably am exposed to the inner workings way more than other flavors of development would be
vivid dock
I cant remember the last time i used a DS, even knowing about them
Buuuut ive done a lot of js/frontend lately
vast shoal
I find it hard to imagine how people can't frequently run into hash tables and situations where hash tables can help if you use them correctly, for example.
vivid dock
Hashtables are basically dics and objects (in js) right?
vast shoal
They are dictionaries, yes. I would guess JS objects are probably implemented with hash tables?
vivid dock
Thats what i assumr aswell
So, ok if you count that as using DS then i use them a lot 😅
vast shoal
I mean, DS&A will teach you that a hash table has an amortized constant time lookup, and that'll lead to the conclusion that you can use them for caching.
Which is a frequently occurring use case in every day development.
vivid dock
I used a queue of ids and a dict last time i made a cache
But it was more of a max size cache
vivid dock
But ignoring objects as hashtables, still doesnt change how little ive needed ds/a in js frontend code
So id like yo argue its not as important to know about if that's ones desired route
vapid jay
Can someone help me find a job so I don't have to code Java at a meat grinder? DM me I'm about to leave to their training bootcamp. Please help.
vivid dock
Thats not how this channel works.
vast shoal
Well, even then, some frontends have more complex logic than others.
vivid dock
I guess, react needs more logic than svelte for instance
But we made a point to extract a lot of the work to our backend
vast shoal
You can develop your own react components with more complicated functionality as well.
Some work is appropriate to do in the backend, and some is appropriate to do in the frontend.
vivid dock
You can make much the same with svelte, but it's abstracted away a lot of the ds/a needed into its core functions
gilded valley
When people say data structures and algorithms, they (or maybe just me) arent referring to simple stuff like lists, sets and hash maps and their basic functionality.
vast shoal
A backend query is slow, so maybe you only want to do it once, and then you can process that data in the frontend in different ways.
vivid dock
Yeah, but most of our work so far only needed one form of the data
vast shoal
@gilded valley I'm referring to understanding what data structures and algorithms are in a general sense, and the concepts of time and space complexity, how common data structures and algorithms differ in this respect, and being able to easily learn and understand a more specific or obscure one when needed.
vivid dock
So we did the formating backend
vast shoal
I'm not talking about memorizing a lot of really arcane and esoteric ones.
umbral valley
Also as one page web apps become more common and more complex, it’s an important concept to know how to store everything for memory management as another example
gilded valley
They're more referring to esoteric graph traversal issues, and red black trees and other esoteric nonsense.
Sure and I'm arguing that can be picked up in a week or so, and there's little advantage to spending hundreds of hours learning tbem unless you want to pass a Google interview
vivid dock
Even on a google interview it might just be enough to admit you would use it, but had to look it up to implement
vast shoal
I disagree that a week is enough to get an indepth understanding, but even if that's the case, people aren't going to invest that week if they don't know what they're missing. I see a lot of people in the industry who are just plain ignorant of a lot of these things.
umbral valley
https://medium.com/@felipernb/algorithms-data-structures-and-web-development-7772e088f1d3 does a decent job of explaining where they might be important too
gilded valley
Admittedly, I did skim it. But that article seems to be arguing for a pretty basic knowledge, stacks, queues, trees, are all things people are pretty cognizant of
vast shoal
I think you might be surprised how little some people who work professionally with development might know.
umbral valley
It’s not meant to be comprehensive, just some neat uses that aren’t immediately apparently. Like the one page thing. But also that ^
gilded valley
Ok that's fine, but I'm struggling to see any takeaway other than if you didn't do a cs degree and are now a developer, doing the cs50 course is a good idea
vast shoal
If you know all the basic data structures and are familiar with their performance characteristics, and you're able to easily pick up more obscure ones when you have to, then you're in a pretty good position. But a LOT of people aren't.
@gilded valley I mean, yes, that probably is a good idea.
I'm not saying you need to get an entire CS degree if you don't have one.
final thistle
I only did 2 years of CS and dropped out, but I learned the concepts of the stuff you're talking about now
vast shoal
It just feels irresponsible to be telling people that data structures and algorithms are irrelevant.
Even if you don't mean that you don't need to know about trees and queues, it's a statement that's vulnerable to misinterpretation.
gilded valley
But far more is required than that to get an interview at google/fb.
My original point is that 90% of the learning reqyired for a Google interview, and most of the problems on leet code, are pretty worthless for real life
vast shoal
That may very well be the case. I'm mostly arguing against that quote about what "senior engineers" are saying.
final thistle
I must admit it was useful to be aware of them at least... never finished the introductory course to databases, but I know what I'd have to look up if I wanted to do something serious with one
vivid dock
Maybe i just know em well enough to not realize im considering big O and which structure im working with / implementing 
final thistle
I think it's important to know what you don't know
vivid dock
Thats is true
I have the first hour(s) of work be dedicated to read up on new tech / blogs / features etc
My list of unknown stuff grows everyday
vast shoal
@vivid dock That's probably not a bad idea, actually.
vivid dock
Its a great thing
Come in 7/8 and read with s fresh cup of coffee till 9 when the rest get in
Sometimes i dedicate those hours to following up on something on my unknown list
Its basically the only way i can continue to learn and improve my programming as work itself is pretty contained with what i can learn
So for any programming job i would suggest arguing your way to at least a few hours of self learning while at work 🤷
final thistle
oh man I'm so scared
I've programmed from a young age, but never took it seriously... after dropping out, I started a BS in multimedia design (or whatever its equivalent is in your language/country)
vivid dock
Bs as in bachelor study?
final thistle
point is, this career requires devs, but no one ever wants to do that
yeah... I think? sorry, I don't remember the names in English
a degree for a 5-year program
vivid dock
Me neither 
Here a bachelor is typically 3 years, and a masters degree a bachelor + 2 more years
final thistle
so I always ended up developing everything, to the point I'm studying design to be a programmer -_-
and I feel I know so little
but everyone thinks I'm a wizard
final thistle
mostly generative and interactive art, working mostly with Processing and OpenFrameworks + OpenCV... but also games and VR Games
I started Python recently and decided to learn everything I've missed, so I studied the basics of HTTP, how cookies work, etc. and Flask
vivid dock
Sounds like a pretty good kit so far
final thistle
and I'm doing a streaming HLS server with multithreading
vivid dock
Sounds like you sre a wizard
final thistle
it's too much stuff to learn for 3 months, all I've done with Python...
vivid dock
If people say you're a wizard, maybe, just maybe you really are one
final thistle
well we kinda think that about what we don't know how to do, right?
vivid dock
Yes, but it also means you know about it
vast shoal
@final thistle Even if you don't know everything, it sounds like you know how to learn what you need, which is much more important for a developer.
final thistle
when I saw how easy Flask was I was like... "wait, I can make a web to have a button, and make the button delete all my system files via a shell command if I press it? that's amazing"
vivid dock
Yup 😎
final thistle
thanks, that's what my mindset usually is...
vivid dock
I bought a pi to have a webslte turn my coffeemachine on
final thistle
and being aware that I'll hate my code a month later
final thistle
hah, I brought a Pi to force myself to do projects
vast shoal
The best way to learn how to write good code is to write a lot of bad code and gradually find ways to improve it.
final thistle
I kinda obsess over the details, though, I always want to "do it well"... learning multithreading and Python's limitations (the Global Interpret Lock) made me want to know more to the point I won't write a line of code because I'm trying to understand why and how the gears move
vivid dock
And review bad code
I review my peers code at work, and boy do i have to lecture them often about whats bad code and not
Helps a lot in forcing myself write better. Code
final thistle
even though it should not be needed, and I should learn how to properly work with mutexs, semaphores, how race conditions take place, etc
vivid dock
My moto is to just write it, and refactor before other get to read it
final thistle
lmao yes
vast shoal
@final thistle Well, with multithreading, that impulse of yours is a good thing. It's easy to make mistakes when writing multithreaded code, and attention to detail is a virtue.
final thistle
too bad examples and tutorials on this don't explain what I want to know sometimes
(I'm talking about stuff specific to Python)
like, every time I look up how to share something between variables, they say queue is how
vast shoal
Maybe we should move this into #python-discussion
vast shoal
No, it's interesting, just more about Python than careers.
final thistle
okay I'll go so I can rant for a bit (?
naive dust
guys i think i enjoy making bots or automation, is this a demanded skill? is this a good path to follow?
vast shoal
If you pursue this interest, you will probably learn a lot of marketable skills in any case.
naive dust
thanks
fallow island
Lol finding an intern anywhere else than japan, USA and UK is impossible
real plover
an internship or an actual intern?
reef marsh
@alpine badge let's continue here instead
alpine badge
Hey there
reef marsh
python is beautiful for its readability, small talk, and its optimized dev time
Not to mention we have great community ( like this ) - so picking it up is definitely a good idea, its popularity is on the rise
You can actually do a lot with python even though it is a scripting languages like JS
It's harder to tell what you cannot do with python than what you can
alpine badge
I like the fact that there are so many different things i can do with it compared to JS and PHP. If I thought I would get a job with just Python I would definitely only focus on it.
reef marsh
There is - data science
Though it requires more math
python is versatile, you can do lots of things with it, I was surprised at first too
alpine badge
My pitfall indeed. Math is the language of the universe, sadly a language in which I need much more practice in. Learing t program has definitely helped me with my logical and resoning skills though.
reef marsh
Of course you can always persuade your boss to use python instead, so you dont have to learn PHP
JS is still one among the 3 pillars of www so picking it up is also great
alpine badge
I was learning it on freeCodeCamp ad i setup study groups and everything but it just seemed so... blah now copared to Python i feel Python has as we mentioned earlier a much more solid foundation for a beginner to stand up on. Nonetheless I do plan on learning JavaScript on freeCodeCamp, Mozilla Developer Netwrok , and wschools when i finish my basic studies of Python on wSchools. I will just continue learning Python on the side daily as I shift y main fous to JS
reef marsh
That's a good plan, I'd also recommend codewars - it's great to pick up new languages
You can also learn 80% of PHP by reading about Object Oriented Programming ( OOP ) - and then try to do OOP programming on python
the rest 20% is learning syntax and whatsnot
Python will spoil you good though - Writing codes in other languages now feels more time-consuming and more tedious
alpine badge
lol I forgot about them, i got super intimidated when i wasnt allowed to sign up because i couldnt solve the first challenge a few months ago for JavaScript, haha. I ill keep them on my list then do try out daily. I really do love their platfor, also i wanted to build a bot to keep track of users scroed in my server. maybe that would be beneficial here as well if i evver do complete it..
lol i deserve to be spoiled, and Python is just the one I want to spoil me lmao. I really do feel like i am going in the right direction. and happy i found this comunity. Im not gonna lie the Python irc and mailing list are ok but this is just great, honestly. Btw what do you suggest for learning OOP? I a going to send you a book collection I have on github brb
vapid jay
Variable declarations in python have me spoiled. Who has time to write char,int etc 😆
steel blaze
exactly
alpine badge
@reef marsh https://github.com/JonDevOps/books
Talk to you all later. I have to attend a group meeting in 5 minutes for Y Combinators Startup School. The wining teams get $15k.
vapid jay
Thanks for the codewars recommendation! Just passed the initiation.
mild pine
is it actually viable to try to get a job with just Python skills or should a person get the Python skills and then obtain other skills as well in order to land a job (such as JavaScript, maybe)?
vernal lily
its hard to generalize but I think its fair to say that many "python" jobs also involve another language of some kind
be it SQL, JS, R or other
trail shadow
You can do data science with python
umbral valley
it's kinda rare in general to get a job in just one language honestly. they exist, but it really cuts down on your possible jobs
vapid jay
hey, I'm in the process of finding work. how many opportunities are available with completely remote jobs vs an office? this would be for a junior/starter position. Very good with Python now, have a few good projects in my portfolio, and can use flask and sqlalchemy effectively.
vast shoal
@vapid jay "completely remove jobs"?
pulsar drum
remote maybe
vast shoal
Oh, yeah, that makes sense.
I have been contacted about fully remote jobs in the past, so I would imagine they aren't unheard of. Can't really say whether this applies for entry-level positions. In general, I think the more requirements you put on the position, the more leverage you probably want to have in terms of experience. I would think people would be more hesitant to hire a fully remote employee if they have less work experience and/or no degree.
vapid jay
yeah, remote @vast shoal . Not sure why it autocorrected to that.
I don't have a degree. What I'm trying to do is break into the field.
vast shoal
Ok, so yeah, like I said, I think someone with less experience has less leverage to make demands about the nature of the position. Someone with less experience might be less trusted to do a good job unsupervised too. At the same time, fully remote positions exist, so I can't say with certainty that you won't be able to find something.
vapid jay
I appreciate your response. Thats what I'm aiming for, but if it comes down to it I'll take anything. I'm just feeling out what is accessible to me at this point.
halcyon plank
Hey! Does anyone know of any open source projects to work on? Actually I need some projects to build my resume for my first internship
And am done with basics of Python. So anything in response to that?
😄
And ya.. btw am in my first year at college. I hope first year students can land an internship 😅
vivid dock
Just have to look for them, or even create them by applying to firms that didnt even think they needed one
halcyon plank
So does anyone wanna join me in an open source project? 🤩
Am looking for ideas on the net but they seem too tough
vivid dock
Those are the good ideas
Look for stuff that seems fun, not doable
Then learn whats needed to do it
The fact that the project seems fun will be motivation enough to learn the requirements to do it
halcyon plank
Umm..unable to find them
All I come across seems too far fetched
Do you have an example?
vivid dock
Have a look at these
Don't look at the difficulty or what you think you can do
Just pick something that sounds interesting
halcyon plank
Can I do these with basic python knowledge?
What's the link for the above image @vivid dock?
vivid dock
Click it and open the image to get an url in your browser
or rightclick - copy link
It's originally linked in #python-discussion s pinned messages
If you want to contribute to open source you could browse through https://github.com/topics/python?l=python&o=desc&s=updated and look for tags like good-first-issue or easy-fix
Or head over to #542272993192050698 and help contribute to our event-based bot which is entirely community developed
halcyon plank
Oh thanks a lot 😄
vast shoal
@halcyon plank You may not be able to do everything on that list immediately, but if you could, there would be no point. The idea is that you pick something that IS out of your reach, and then you learn what you need in order to accomplish it.
halcyon plank
That's such a good advice @vast shoal. Thanks! ✨
wanton holly
well yes
vapid jay
@halcyon plank /r/coolgithubprojects on reddit might yield some open source projects. I feel like looking for open source projects to work on is a common question but I'm not sure how often people end up doing it. Even doing something like following tutorials for projects can build your github and you can open source your own work and improve it in your own ways (wandering away from the tutorial). Also you can definitely get an internship after your first year. I had a good internship after freshman year that I got through a connection though, but goes to show how important making good relationships is
This is a good github - https://github.com/tuvtran/project-based-learning
atomic solstice
are there many internship opportunities available for highschool students (unpaid/paid)? currently a senior
torpid bolt
i don't think this place is for that (looking for/offering work), but if it was, you might want to say your area
opal perch
I dont think he's looking for ads, I think he just wanted to know if there are internsbips available
or if others in his position have gotten internships
humble elm
Depends on the area I guess
atomic solstice
@torpid bolt @humble elm socal
torpid bolt
Is that the name of a place? Gmap doesn't know about it, or a contraction? South california maybe? I live in france, i have no idea if this is a useful answer, but hopefuly the people who need to understand, will.
real plover
It's the short hand for south California sometimes. Not sure if that's what he meant though
shy pollen
It's south california but also sounds like a futuristic, dystopian lab
torpid bolt
@shy pollen sooo, south california?
shy pollen
Was thinking more apeture science-y but sure, why not
zealous ibex
Guys so I have a question, is a good github and stack esencial with finding a internship or job? And if yes do you guys know any tutorials on how to manage them both because I'm having a hard time doing so
Can maybe some of you post your stack and github links so I can compare and see what's good?
gilded valley
A solid github profile is a good way to differentiate yourself for internships; and it can't hurt for finding jobs. Whilst I don't have a link the best way to manage them is to just make things you find interesting with a range of different technologies
The goal is to demonstrate both passion and competence
short hemlock
@vivid dock yo just wanted to say thanks for that picture + info, super helpful
vivid dock
No prob
torpid bolt
a good github as a junior developper is hard, you can have multiple small projects if you are dabbling, or some contributions to open source projects, or maybe one serious project, but i would hardly expect more, if you are there, great for you. For stack, it's good to either know a little about a few of them, or a lot about one, django or flask for backend, react or vue for front, can't go wrong with these imho, but you are going to learn on the job anyway, we all do.
showing open mindedness and ability to learn is more important than pretenting to know everything.
and soft skills, knowing how to work with others, that's a real ++
gilded valley
For employability prospects, which JS front end library is going to be the most useful to learn? I'm guessing React or Angular right?
torpid bolt
pretty sure react is way more popular than angular, though there are certainly a lot of places still using angular
but i hear it has so many different versions and people sticking to old versions, that it's probably not fun to navigate at all
short hemlock
not sure if this is the right place to ask, but I'm looking for a really simple, straightforward resume format - do you all have any recommendations?
my current resume is very text heavy and is in a standard business format, I'm trying to change it to something very concise and elegant
mental aurora
my experience so far is that if you can get your foot in the door to an in person interview and prove you know your stuff (as entry level) then maybe have a couple good references and some relevant experience (internship or just anything tech related) or even any work experience to show youve held a job then you have hope for getting an entry level spot
I cant speak for hardcore dev jobs in extremely competitive companies though
tardy sierra
Hi guys just finished from the university but I'm close to mid-level full stack developer. Searching for job
shy pollen
👌