#career-advice | Python | Page 310

grizzled sundial Jun 6, 2019, 11:50 PM

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Yes to online certs, no to Calc class ranking, IMHO

rare sand Jun 6, 2019, 11:51 PM

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I don't see a problem with either, if your resume isn't too long otherwise.

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I'd probably cut stuff like that out of a resume with lots of experience on it, though, to keep it lean. but that doesn't sound like your case.

cobalt acorn Jun 6, 2019, 11:57 PM

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Anyone work in infrastructure or application deployment?

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related to Cloud tech?

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Trying to decide what would be a better career path. We work in AWS and i'm contemplating these 2 paths

leaden fjord Jun 7, 2019, 12:00 AM

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@rare sand & @grizzled sundial I really dont have any professional experience in this field. This will be my first internship. Are there any tips you could give to really market myself as a good ML candidate in this field? Outside of SQL, Python, and all the libraries that are necessary to know, is there anything else I should be doing? Clearly I need to know linear algebra, regression (stats in general), etc, but is there anything else you can think of that may benefit me to land my first internship?

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Also, how slim are the chances for me even to land in the field of ML? Would someone doing just their bachelors be more likely to end up in analytics, or is it still possible for me to work with AI/ML?

red spindle Jun 7, 2019, 12:25 AM

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ML is a method in analytics

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Its a general technique that can be used for lots of things

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I think lots of people get the wrong idea about it. It's a huge buzzword, but asking to work in "the field of ML" I think of as say, a new chef asking to work in "the field of thermomixes"

main thicket Jun 7, 2019, 12:40 AM

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It absolutely isn't the same thing

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ML is a very very large field with a lot of depth

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People spend their entire lives focusing on ML because it is hard

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And there's a lot of potential there that we haven't even uncovered.

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Also "a method in analytics" is the biggest understatement of the year

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"Programming is just a method in automating excel files"

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"Maths is just a method in finding the areas of circles"

gusty sundial Jun 7, 2019, 1:23 AM

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Hi all! So I am a phd student in epidemiology and biostatistics who's finding it more and more intriguing to incorporate Python/data science tools to advance the field. I am admittedly green in this area and would love to hear from anyone who's either read papers on these applications or done some similar analyses themselves!

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My specific content area in school/dissertation will look at large cohorts of renal insufficiency and kidney disease with a small fleet of available biomarkers including metabolomics, proteomics, and genomics data

sour hemlock Jun 7, 2019, 1:40 AM

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can i get a job just form learning python

vapid jay Jun 7, 2019, 1:48 AM

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@gusty sundial are you trying to break into pharma..

leaden fjord Jun 7, 2019, 2:42 AM

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Jesus christ you guys are all so harsh to each other 😂😂

gloomy lagoon Jun 7, 2019, 2:45 AM

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Not nearly as harsh as companies are

vapid jay Jun 7, 2019, 2:45 AM

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^so true

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they will eat you up and spit you out..

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I worked at an energy company.. functional programming and field work was the job description.. people died all the time..

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HR's main job was to avoid bad press..

gloomy lagoon Jun 7, 2019, 2:47 AM

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You sold me at functional programming

vapid jay Jun 7, 2019, 2:47 AM

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that's when I decided to switch careers... but the basic idea never changes.. HR looks out for the company, not you.. you gotta look out for yourself, keep your skills to date, stay productive and avoid burnout.. to make it rich and retire early

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yeah it was a lot of fun.. testing and getting things to work in the real world.. actuators and control equipment.. but not much focus on code review cuz I worked on projects.. We revisited it much later and called it performance improvement.. lol

gloomy lagoon Jun 7, 2019, 2:49 AM

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ouch

vapid jay Jun 7, 2019, 2:51 AM

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did you hear about the Flatbuffers.. I wonder if Google will migrate all their protocol buffers to that..

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probably will cite some minor performance improvement in sending each packet.. in kb terms maybe.. but it'll add up..

leaden fjord Jun 7, 2019, 2:54 AM

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Any of you guys work in local government? I hear the pay isnt amazing, but benefits are always amazing.

spring cave Jun 7, 2019, 4:06 AM

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Yo

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Quick question

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AP comp sci A or comp sci principles

real python Jun 7, 2019, 4:14 AM

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Some context would probably be helpful for people not in the US and not at your high school

vital kelp Jun 7, 2019, 7:28 AM

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@leaden fjord depends which country. I work for local government in the UK (admittedly I don't work in IT or systems development) but I've not really seen any benefits at my work place

green sinew Jun 7, 2019, 7:37 AM

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The public sector in many places in the world is declining. That doesn't mean it will stay like that.

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Youve gotta make sure your keeping with the times, and when it's time for a new job, you know where to go

gusty sundial Jun 7, 2019, 12:54 PM

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@vapid jay: I wouldn't be opposed, necessarily. My dissertation will also involve a lot of Bayesian adaptive trial methods, so I assume those could connect as well?

main thicket Jun 7, 2019, 12:55 PM

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your dissertation sounds lit, good luck with it!

vapid jay Jun 7, 2019, 1:05 PM

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@gusty sundial I'm not sure how you're using inferential methods to trials.. but I was thinking more along the lines of device development and clinical biochemistry process improvement..

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how are you using it.. i'm curious.. always looking for ways to apply those to my work in nlp too..

leaden fjord Jun 7, 2019, 5:08 PM

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@real python Im in college. I was referring to those who work for their state (in the U.S)

real python Jun 7, 2019, 5:22 PM

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That was directed to the person asking about AP classes

vapid jay Jun 7, 2019, 5:48 PM

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I need help.. I know its too early to ask coz i just started with ml and just completed data preprocessing and linear regression from udemy.. so yeah a long way to go.. but i dont know what to do like should i start from practical datasets.. if yes where to find them... i heard something about kaggle competitions but i am not sure what that platform is for..And like after when i do complete course what can i do.. how can i build myself to be excellent coder.. i know i am ranting and its probably too big to read but if any of u can guide me it will be very helpful

covert scaffold Jun 7, 2019, 5:58 PM

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https://www.kaggle.com/datasets

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browse and find a topic that seems interesting

inner oasis Jun 7, 2019, 6:57 PM

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Anyone know a good source of part time development gigs? Like off hours to supplement a full time position

formal sedge Jun 7, 2019, 7:33 PM

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code bounties if you want to freelance

inner oasis Jun 7, 2019, 7:56 PM

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any idea on where to find them @formal sedge ?

formal sedge Jun 7, 2019, 7:57 PM

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Don't know any websites off the top of my head, Google should be able to help tho

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Code bounties are pretty difficult, but it's always a backup plan

hybrid sleet Jun 7, 2019, 8:51 PM

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What is the average uk salary for an engineer specialized in python?

unreal linden Jun 7, 2019, 8:55 PM

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@hybrid sleet perhaps try this to find out: https://stackoverflow.com/jobs/salary

Stack Overflow

Stack Overflow Salary Calculator

How much does the average Software Developer earn? Use the Stack Overflow Salary Calculator to see how much you should you be earning.

tawdry remnant Jun 7, 2019, 10:46 PM

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https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary/6d8a2fe6/Python

Software Engineer with Python Skills Salary | PayScale

The average salary for a Software Engineer with Python skills is £37,510. Visit PayScale to research software engineer salaries by city, experience, skill, employer and more.

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payscale is also good

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make sure to adjust expectations based on in and out of london

vast forum Jun 8, 2019, 12:49 AM

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Hey Guys,

Want to know something, as a beginner, Where I can learn algo and data structure?
leetcode is for newbie?
If i learned algo and data structures can I build my own software if I need to?
Or can someone tell me some projects where i can learn this algorithm and data structure?
I want to create some open source software projects, just for my portfolio.

gloomy lagoon Jun 8, 2019, 1:13 AM

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I’ll answer each point separately

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I would honestly either do a Coursera (or Lynda or whatever else ) course on it, and also get Introduction to Algorithms or any other thick textbook on it, and read it end to end. If you have a lot of time and want to be very good, Art of Computer Programming by Knuth

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Leetcode has problems that range from very easy to somewhat hard

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You should know algorithms and data structures to make good software and informed choices, but you don’t necessarily need it for a number of basic applications. But if you do dig into algos and data structures, you’ll be significantly better by default. And probably much better honestly

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Algorithms and Data Structures are everywhere, so I’m not sure what you mean by projects.

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Nice!

vast forum Jun 8, 2019, 2:49 AM

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@gloomy lagoon Thanks for the brief reply. By open source project means any software which i can make with python, algo and data structure. which can help community as well and i can also learn.

gilded valley Jun 8, 2019, 2:50 AM

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@gloomy lagoon can I ask what you do? Everything I hear from talking to developers seems to imply that algorithms and data structures are practically never used in real software development.

vast forum Jun 8, 2019, 2:50 AM

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😮

vapid jay Jun 8, 2019, 2:52 AM

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Where can I study algorithms and data structures used for ml ?

main thicket Jun 8, 2019, 3:40 AM

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@gilded valley He's a SWE at a big N company

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@vapid jay you don't really need them for ML

vapid jay Jun 8, 2019, 4:12 AM

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@main thicket But I do need the math behind it.. don't I?

dusky heart Jun 8, 2019, 4:18 AM

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you dont need them but its extremely useful to know what youre doing

gloomy lagoon Jun 8, 2019, 4:24 AM

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@gilded valley I mean at least half of developers probably don’t ever use anything more complicated than a vector or a list, sure, especially when just working with UX or web dev / CRUD applications

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But even things people take for granted, like git or many pieces of the Linux kernel or text editors are built with surprisingly interesting algorithms and data structures

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Take a text editor as an example

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A highly efficient way to represent strings in memory for a text editor is as ropes: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rope_(data_structure)

Rope (data structure)

In computer programming, a rope, or cord, is a data structure composed of smaller strings that is used to efficiently store and manipulate a very long string. For example, a text editing program may use a rope to represent the text being edited, so that operations such as ins...

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Text search in anything longer than a few megabytes of text is very slow if you use a naive method, but with an algorithm such as the Rabin Karp it is asymptotically much lower in the average case, making it feasible: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabin–Karp_algorithm

Rabin%E2%80%93Karp_algorithm

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If you take Vimscript as an example, it’s probably using multiple data structures in the parser, and most obviously a parse tree: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parse_tree

Parse tree

A parse tree or parsing tree or derivation tree or concrete syntax tree is an ordered, rooted tree that represents the syntactic structure of a string according to some context-free grammar. The term parse tree itself is used primarily in computational linguistics; in theoret...

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with emacs and lisp, you have a lisp machine which is heavily stack based (a gross oversimplication)

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They have regex capabilities in search as well, which may be either constructed as a finite state machine: http://www.ecs.umass.edu/ece242/documents/ECE242.L24.pptx.pdf

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Or other methods which use combinations of state machines and dynamic programming techniques

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That’s a text editor from the 80s right there

main thicket Jun 8, 2019, 4:36 AM

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@vapid jay algos and data structures aren't what you need, you need calculus, linear algebra and Bayesian probability theory

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ML isn't really computer science

gloomy lagoon Jun 8, 2019, 4:39 AM

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It may seem obvious that you can just reuse these algorithms when you need them... but if you don’t know them, how do you know to use Ropes instead of a naive byte array? Or to search with the Rabin Karp instead of a cringeworthy indexOf() based method? Or to know the performance impact of your regex statement compared to a functionally identical one with less state transitions?

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Most developers don’t need to know this all, and most take a class once and scurry on, but the more I studied them (I still spend hours a day studying this stuff on my own) the more I see them in even really basic development work

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And use them

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And the lack of care of craft and theory in the industry is why so much Software is bad code

main thicket Jun 8, 2019, 4:42 AM

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Also being able to implement those abstract algorithms is alright but those algorithms don't always fit a situation perfectly. Everyone knows Djikstra's or A* but how do you apply it to Google maps? In Google maps, you start having to worry about "how do I discretize my map into edges", "how do I run a finite horizon version of searching since I don't want to search the entire earth", "what real life heuristics can I develop"

vapid jay Jun 8, 2019, 6:11 AM

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Ok .

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Also do u think I have to study numpy and pandas separately?

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Like Do I need to be thorough with libraries and stuff.. and where can I study the Same

main thicket Jun 8, 2019, 6:13 AM

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Not really, numpy is just a linear algebra library. You can look up stuff as you use it. Pandas doesn't even have much to learn

vapid jay Jun 8, 2019, 6:14 AM

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So it's not necessary to read it separately?

main thicket Jun 8, 2019, 6:15 AM

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Not really

tawny quartz Jun 8, 2019, 6:18 AM

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@vapid jay Bot auto-muted you sorry

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Slow down on the attachments

vapid jay Jun 8, 2019, 6:19 AM

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Ok sorry.. I didn't know

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I was sending 6 pics at once

tawny quartz Jun 8, 2019, 6:19 AM

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Ah yeah that'd do it

vapid jay Jun 8, 2019, 6:20 AM

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Ok will remember in future

tawny quartz Jun 8, 2019, 6:20 AM

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No worries, didn't do anything wrong, it's just a protection against dumping/spamming/shitposting

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Just post them more slowly and you'll be fine

vapid jay Jun 8, 2019, 6:20 AM

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Ok

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@main thicket can u tell me anything about how to learn from fast.ai

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Any idea about that site.. because people sure seem to praise that site

warm nexus Jun 8, 2019, 8:53 AM

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What is the minimum payment of pro python developer?

tawny quartz Jun 8, 2019, 8:59 AM

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$1

humble elm Jun 8, 2019, 9:05 AM

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freelance 0$, otherwise it depends on your country. USA 7.25$/h, Germany 9.20euro/h (10.43$/h)

main thicket Jun 8, 2019, 9:22 AM

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I don't like fast.ai at all. I think it's very shallow and teaches you how to mess around with pre-made stuff easily but not any actual skills @vapid jay

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If all you want to do is play around with pretrained NN models made by others as a hobby, go ahead

vapid jay Jun 8, 2019, 10:17 AM

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okkk

dim pike Jun 8, 2019, 12:15 PM

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Hello guys

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do remote companies pay for coworking spaces ?

tawdry remnant Jun 8, 2019, 12:15 PM

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depends on the company

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i know some do

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if they have enough workers in a general location they may rent a coworking space, but again, depends on the company

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seems reasonable

dim pike Jun 8, 2019, 12:46 PM

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yeah it's the nearest thing to an office space

vapid jay Jun 8, 2019, 3:00 PM

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So which country r u guys from?

tawdry remnant Jun 8, 2019, 3:12 PM

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My point of reference is Denmark and UK

ornate trellis Jun 9, 2019, 3:45 AM

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Is anyone into computer vision?

main thicket Jun 9, 2019, 4:01 AM

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Me

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@ornate trellis

ornate trellis Jun 9, 2019, 4:01 AM

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@main thicket Ah, good!

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How did you start?

main thicket Jun 9, 2019, 4:03 AM

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Traditional or deep? Traditional I started with first using Penn's course
https://repository.upenn.edu/robo2x/
Deep I started using Stanford's course
http://cs231n.stanford.edu/

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Both require strong fundamentals in maths, with the first requiring fundamental knowledge of signal processing (especially fluency with frequency domain) and the other requires general understanding of ML, although you can get by without

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It still becomes hard if you don't have fundamentals though

ornate trellis Jun 9, 2019, 4:06 AM

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I have been through gradient descent, linear regression, logistic regression. (AndrewNG)

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and I've completed a basic course: https://www.coursera.org/learn/computer-vision-basics/home/welcome

Coursera

Coursera | Online Courses From Top Universities. Join for Free

1000+ courses from schools like Stanford and Yale - no application required. Build career skills in data science, computer science, business, and more.

main thicket Jun 9, 2019, 4:08 AM

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Might be able to go through 231n. Try it and see how you go. It ramps up pretty slowly to revise basic ML stuff so it can take quite a few lectures to see if you are okay

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That's not really a CV course as much as it's a "here's what I expect you to already know about CV before we start" course

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I'm lost, are you trying to do traditional vision or deep vision

ornate trellis Jun 9, 2019, 4:10 AM

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Actually, I want to go through basic vision.

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I really don't know if I should go through traditional or deep vision

main thicket Jun 9, 2019, 4:11 AM

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Basic can mean either. Traditional uses signal processing and algorithmic approaches to vision, deep uses convolutional neural network approaches

ornate trellis Jun 9, 2019, 4:11 AM

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Which one is easier to start with?

main thicket Jun 9, 2019, 4:12 AM

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🤷 no clue, depends on who you are I guess

ornate trellis Jun 9, 2019, 4:13 AM

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Recognizing emotions, gestures, etc

main thicket Jun 9, 2019, 4:13 AM

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Deep vision is the one you want

ornate trellis Jun 9, 2019, 4:13 AM

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applications like these comes under deep learning?

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Good!

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I think I have been through starting lectures of cs231n

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I will try it and get back to you, thank you!

main thicket Jun 9, 2019, 4:55 AM

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The field behind making computers understand what's going on in images. Recognise objects in images, make new images, make 3d maps based on images, etc

ornate trellis Jun 9, 2019, 5:06 AM

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@main thicket Did you use google cloud

main thicket Jun 9, 2019, 5:07 AM

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I did not. I have a GTX970 from when I was younger and played games

ornate trellis Jun 9, 2019, 5:08 AM

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I have i5-8250u CPU, MX150 GPU.

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I think I shouldn't face any problem;

main thicket Jun 9, 2019, 5:44 AM

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@ornate trellis that's not only very weak but also doesn't support CUDA

ornate trellis Jun 9, 2019, 5:44 AM

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lol, so, I need google cloud?

main thicket Jun 9, 2019, 5:45 AM

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Or alternative, yeah

ornate trellis Jun 9, 2019, 5:45 AM

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Is there any free alternative

main thicket Jun 9, 2019, 5:46 AM

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You don't get free GPUs for free but if you're a student you can get free credits for big GCP and AWS

ornate trellis Jun 9, 2019, 5:47 AM

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I am a student but, without any student email address.

main thicket Jun 9, 2019, 6:28 AM

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there should be ways

idle vine Jun 9, 2019, 6:42 PM

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Does coursera or online university classes count for many student discounts for software?

little oracle Jun 9, 2019, 7:14 PM

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If this is about career. I wonder what should I head for, for software in general... I was thinking about I.T and software engineering... What did you guys go for to integrate your life with your programming desires?

gloomy lagoon Jun 9, 2019, 7:26 PM

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I keep my life as separate as possible

gloomy lagoon Jun 9, 2019, 8:12 PM

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IT and SWE are not the same thing

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IT could be filling out spreadsheets

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I’m guessing you are probably youngish (under 18) and don’t quite see where you fit in yet. If that’s a correct assumption, go to school in CS and it’ll make sense very quickly

sinful tundra Jun 9, 2019, 9:07 PM

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does anybody know of Quaziprogramming, "Profitable Programming Course" is it any good and live up to what he says it does, or a waste of money/time?

main thicket Jun 9, 2019, 9:37 PM

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@idle vine you need to be enrolled in a proper University. Coursera is not that. On the other hand, something like Open University is.

idle vine Jun 9, 2019, 9:46 PM

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I'll check it out although I'm from the US.

main thicket Jun 9, 2019, 10:03 PM

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Yeah, so you want to be enrolled in say, ASU online rather than coursera

vapid jay Jun 10, 2019, 2:29 AM

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man, relocating is going to be a bitch
1k for shipping a car

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grumpchib

candid vortex Jun 10, 2019, 12:14 PM

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Sorry if this seems like a weird question for this channel

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But how long do you all commute

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We need to buy a house soon and I'm just wondering what a common commute times is for developers.

indigo sleet Jun 10, 2019, 12:15 PM

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It's gonna depend on the place you work for

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Some shops will let you do remote

candid vortex Jun 10, 2019, 12:18 PM

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That's kind of why I'm her3

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I'm not working in tech yet

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But I hope to be soon

craggy wave Jun 10, 2019, 12:18 PM

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I don't work as a dev, but my commute is about 1 hour and 15 minutes (bike) or 1 hour (public transportation).

candid vortex Jun 10, 2019, 12:19 PM

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But I don't want to overspend on a house close to the CBD where 95% of the jobs are. And then in 3 years end up working mostly remote

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I really want to be remote medium term

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In an ideal world I would love to be remote right away but I know that's very unlikely without prior work history

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My wife has to stay in our city for her career. But if I was fully remote I would probably just move to a cheaper city. But alas

indigo sleet Jun 10, 2019, 12:21 PM

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Can you get the job before moving?

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And specify that you'd be happy to move on your application?

humble elm Jun 10, 2019, 3:02 PM

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some jobs will pay for your relocation

vapid jay Jun 10, 2019, 3:02 PM

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can u tell em to hit me up

marble zealot Jun 10, 2019, 3:52 PM

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Hi folks. I've found a company with a junior ml-python developer position in it. I've applied and they send me a test. They've asked to write a report in pandas. Then they asked to cover the report with test cases. Shortly after I've send them my work they said that they looking for someone with more proficient python skills. Can you look at my code and say what do you think is wrong with it? I think it's not bad... https://pastebin.com/LcqwatjB

Pastebin

[Python] import pandas as pd import numpy as np import unittest ...

tawdry remnant Jun 10, 2019, 4:18 PM

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only 2 test cases?

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wait no

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a single test case

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also no comments

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test cases are meant to cover normal, invalid, and edge case behaviour

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you just wrote some code, gave it a very standard input and normal output and that was it

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if they asked you to use test cases, you should've been testing all kinds of things

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ie empty dataframe

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passing something thats not a dataframe. maybe pass a data frame with the right columns but the lengths are mismatched

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that report.loc on line 29 is not really readable :/

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@marble zealot

marble zealot Jun 10, 2019, 4:26 PM

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@tawdry remnant Oh.. I see.. Didn't know that.

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@tawdry remnant So the amount of cases is the weak point, but besides the loc, the code is ok? What do you think?

tawdry remnant Jun 10, 2019, 4:28 PM

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idk, i cant tell whats going on cos no comments :p

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theyre assessing your ability to write code that is gonna be used by others in production

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also dont think of it as the number of test cases, but rather the completeness of the testing suite, you should aim to cover all the possible scenarios

marble zealot Jun 10, 2019, 4:30 PM

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That's a bummer. In my repository I'm frequntly comment.

gloomy lagoon Jun 10, 2019, 4:31 PM

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More test cases tends to be better because each test case should test one thing

marble zealot Jun 10, 2019, 4:31 PM

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Thanks a lot. I've got a lot of information, @tawdry remnant.

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Oh, I see. @gloomy lagoon

gloomy lagoon Jun 10, 2019, 4:32 PM

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One test case was definitely a reason you failed it

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Also that code is hard to follow and not modular

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Tests should be easy for someone else to read and understand in a few seconds

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Largely because like, when they break, someone else will be reading it

tawdry remnant Jun 10, 2019, 4:33 PM

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should be able to gather from the test name what it is testing

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such as testing_empty_dataframe

gloomy lagoon Jun 10, 2019, 4:33 PM

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empty_dataframe_should_return_xxx

tawdry remnant Jun 10, 2019, 4:33 PM

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haha or that if you really wanna go for it

marble zealot Jun 10, 2019, 4:34 PM

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😄

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That's so nice of you guys. I think I should reconsider my coding habits.

tawdry remnant Jun 10, 2019, 4:37 PM

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its about practice really, now youve found out that its valuable, so maybe look into doing a project or even revisiting an old one and writing a complete and thorough test suite for it

vapid jay Jun 10, 2019, 5:24 PM

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What are roles of ml python developer?

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Is it anywhere near to data scientist?

marble zealot Jun 10, 2019, 5:49 PM

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@vapid jay More on infrastructure and deployment as I understood from the description of the position.

remote tree Jun 10, 2019, 8:02 PM

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Curious to hear from those who have just done freelance their entire careers..

How long did it take from the time you started learning to being comfortable taking jobs?
What were some of the first jobs you performed?
Anything you wished you knew before starting freelancing?

grizzled mortar Jun 10, 2019, 10:46 PM

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how did you guys find employers to hire you?

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appying on websites like indeed.com makes me wanna neck

worldly garden Jun 10, 2019, 10:54 PM

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Have you looked at dice.com?

grizzled mortar Jun 10, 2019, 11:42 PM

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no

unkempt ferry Jun 10, 2019, 11:57 PM

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Where’s/what’s the best way to find an internship or entry level position? I find very few posted at all, even less in the Seattle area, and none that aren’t super loud about requiring a bachelors. (For entry level positions.) I had to drop out for financial reasons, and I plan on going back as soon as I can, but I’d like to not just out my career on hold until I can as I don’t know for sure when that will be.

main thicket Jun 11, 2019, 12:10 AM

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@unkempt ferry it's summer, people are already doing internships. The main ones closed a while ago.

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Pretty much every internship will want you to be partway through doing a degree

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Probably includes being enrolled

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Next year's round of internships probably won't start opening until a few months from now I don't think

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Idk about entry level positions

unkempt ferry Jun 11, 2019, 12:25 AM

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Ok, thank you for the input!

worldly garden Jun 11, 2019, 12:30 AM

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I don't think internships are available to non students, they're likely through the school

candid vortex Jun 11, 2019, 12:33 AM

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@indigo sleet sorry I wasn't entirely clear. Where I live we don't really have multiple cities in the same state. Each state only really has one capital city where all the tech jobs are. I live in one of those cities but I'm renting close to the CBD. It would cost me twice as much to buy an equivalent house here as opposed to the outer suburbs. But then my commute would be longer as well

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So I wouldn't be 'moving' to a different city. Just further away for a much cheaper house

indigo sleet Jun 11, 2019, 12:36 AM

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It feels like more of weighing pros and cons

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 12:36 AM

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not gonna be weird

indigo sleet Jun 11, 2019, 12:36 AM

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Ask for remote if possible but don't rule out commuting

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You should be able to figure out the distance using Google Maps

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 12:37 AM

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is it odd for a 14 year old to be fluent in 5 program languages

indigo sleet Jun 11, 2019, 12:37 AM

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Define "fluent"

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 12:37 AM

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i’m almost perfect

indigo sleet Jun 11, 2019, 12:37 AM

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Perfect at what, syntax?

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 12:37 AM

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very few syntax errors

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just general languages as we’ll

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well

indigo sleet Jun 11, 2019, 12:38 AM

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I don't think it's that difficult to be in a position to have learned the syntax of that many languages

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If they're all OO languages then they all have similarities too

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 12:38 AM

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i know c++

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c#

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html 5

indigo sleet Jun 11, 2019, 12:38 AM

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The difference is in your competence when it comes to coding style, stability, use of language idioms, and so on

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HTML isn't a programming language

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 12:39 AM

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agreed

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i know

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it’s just something i know

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i learned F# for some reason

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it’s kind of useless

indigo sleet Jun 11, 2019, 12:39 AM

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Yep

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It kind of is :P

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 12:39 AM

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i never use it

indigo sleet Jun 11, 2019, 12:40 AM

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Anyway you'll find your portfolio to be more important when it comes to a career than "fluency", which arguably can't be measured

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 12:40 AM

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i’m not sure if you’d consider this a program language but i known Lua

indigo sleet Jun 11, 2019, 12:40 AM

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If you're good with a bunch of language then have a varied portfolio

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Yeah, it's a programming language, a bit of a weird one though

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 12:41 AM

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It’s odd

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i think the hardest one for me to learn was c++

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mainly because i reds over 2000 pages worth of books on it

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the 4th edition, the 2nd edition etc

indigo sleet Jun 11, 2019, 12:42 AM

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Theory doesn't always translate to practical work

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Set up on github and start working on projects that interest you

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 12:42 AM

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Yeah

indigo sleet Jun 11, 2019, 12:42 AM

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Every contribution is helpful.

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 12:42 AM

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sure thing (:

indigo sleet Jun 11, 2019, 12:43 AM

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If you haven't used github before and you happen to know python, #542272993192050698 - seasonalbot is there to help beginners learn the tools of the trade

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 12:43 AM

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i’m getting into game development

📎 image0.jpg

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i’m saving up for a MAC

indigo sleet Jun 11, 2019, 12:44 AM

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Macs are useful for digital media, but I wouldn't say they're any better than Windows or Linux for programming

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But this is getting off topic

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 12:44 AM

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Yep

past bear Jun 11, 2019, 3:52 AM

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@vapid jay

scenic drift Jun 11, 2019, 5:49 AM

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Hey everyone!

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I'm gonna be walking into my first real job interview in a couple of hours

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I'm kind of nervous but I think I'll manage. Was wondering if anyone could share their first job interview experience? 😄

unreal linden Jun 11, 2019, 5:52 AM

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it can be nerve wracking but remember to relax, and realize that they also want to sell the merits of working there to you, just as much as you want to sell the merits of you being hired by them. Be prepared with some talking points about yourself when they ask you to tell them a little about you and your experience as a developer. Ask good questions when they give you the opportunity

tawny quartz Jun 11, 2019, 6:07 AM

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Remember it's a two-way street

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You should be asking questions of them as well

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It demonstrates that you have an actual interest in working there, in addition to helping you learn if it's somewhere you want to work if they later extend an offer.

scenic drift Jun 11, 2019, 6:12 AM

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Yes I plan on asking them questions about the company, work enviroment and such.

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The company reached ouit to me, so I have a feeling they have really high expectations. That's the main part that's stressing me out

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 6:26 AM

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my first job interview.. I was selling my own brand.. knew what I wasn't good at, but tried to steer the conversation so I could avoid having to talk about that.. as a fallback, I planned to turn it into a positive if it did come to that by saying something along the lines of what I was doing to work on it..

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but the main point is focus on your strengths.. as much as a role is dependent on hard skills, people don't remember facts, they remember how you made them feel..

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so, talk about how your skills can be useful in that role and what you bring to the table..

scenic drift Jun 11, 2019, 6:59 AM

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I got this.

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Thank you guys 😄

unreal vigil Jun 11, 2019, 7:17 AM

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Do you guys think that experience as an IT technician/engineer is valuable experience when applying for a programming role?

icy berry Jun 11, 2019, 7:28 AM

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I think that is valid, just not sure if I would put it on a résumé or CV.

rare sand Jun 11, 2019, 7:37 AM

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I think maybe @icy berry is misunderstanding the question. it's definitely relevant and it'd be very strange not to include your IT engineer work experience on your resume unless you had tons of other more relevant and more recent experience. like if you were in IT support fifteen years ago but had a long list of dev jobs since then, maybe omitting it would make your resume leaner?

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but in general, any work experience even tangentially related to technology seems highly relevant to me for a CV

icy berry Jun 11, 2019, 7:38 AM

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looks like i did put more into the question then i should. thanks lemon, i do agree with your correction 😄

rare sand Jun 11, 2019, 7:39 AM

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@unreal vigil for the record, me and @icy berry both found our way to dev jobs by relying on many years of more general IT engineer roles

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it's probably not as easy as going the software engineering degree route but it's definitely possible.

unreal vigil Jun 11, 2019, 7:41 AM

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Oh thats really interesting

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Did you guys just build a portfolio and apply till you succeeded?

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I’ve been working as an IT engineer for close to three years now and I try to practise programming in my free time, I’ve been trying to implement python into my job aswell, to automate a few tasks and make things more efficient

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But I worry I’m not gonna get anywhere programming without a degree or some kind of higher level education

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I do have a place at university but I’m not sure I want to go into debt and use up 3 years if I could get where I want to be without the degree

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And it’s getting difficult to stay motivated at work when I feel like I could be learning programming all day instead

rare sand Jun 11, 2019, 7:47 AM

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it's possible. especially if you can argue that your IT experience contained programming tasks, like automation or whatever.

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but it depends where you are

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and may take a lot of interviews for someone to give you a chance.

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you might be automatically disqualified from a whole bunch. you kind of just have to hope someone will offer you a technical test, and then nail the tests.

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a nice github portfolio helps

unreal vigil Jun 11, 2019, 7:49 AM

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What’s a good way to start a portfolio

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Like what kind of projects should I be looking to do

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Or should I just be dumping anything I create in there?

rare sand Jun 11, 2019, 7:50 AM

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wouldn't hurt to do that at first, yeah. but ideally you should try to contribute to open source.

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that always looks good.

unreal vigil Jun 11, 2019, 7:52 AM

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Okay I’ll have to look into it

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I’ve barely touched github at all, I find it really intimidating lol

scenic drift Jun 11, 2019, 7:54 AM

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It's really really simple. Few commands on the terminal and you're good to go (at least for the basics) 😉

icy berry Jun 11, 2019, 7:58 AM

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when i started i found that git was easier to use and that github was more intimidating.

radiant verge Jun 11, 2019, 11:51 AM

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They are completely complimentary :) git is a versioning system (doesn't have to be source code) git hub is a social media site centered on such

tawny flower Jun 11, 2019, 12:49 PM

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With enough knowledge do you think employment is possible without a degree? I know Python and C# currently and want to also start front-end, university makes us take outside classes not related to CS and I did really bad on one but did good on Computer Science so might not get the degree and thinking of the future rn while also studying for the resit.

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 12:52 PM

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Where can I find some good software engineering resumes? I googled it and i just get basic templates

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from good software engineers:P

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your best bet is linkedin..

tawny flower Jun 11, 2019, 1:35 PM

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Are there any specific projects that jobs look for or anything works as long as you have good code/comments? Like I have tons of little tools that I use on the daily to organise files/information etc but not sure if it's worth uploading.

gusty sundial Jun 11, 2019, 2:17 PM

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@vapid jay Not from my experience, but a close friend of mine works in health data science and they scrub PubMed using NLP to aggregate findings for particular drugs or combinations of treatment

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 2:17 PM

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ooh that's pretty cool.. I did that once from clinicaltrials.gov

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is your friends work available online.. I would love to read about it.. and about your stats methods too

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I didn't pursue the healthcare field, I wish I could have.. but the ceiling was too high at the time.. and I'm in big tech now.. v.v

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 3:29 PM

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Oof, people don't put their resume on LinkedIn

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And if they do u can't see the file

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It's small af

tawdry remnant Jun 11, 2019, 3:46 PM

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but you can see what sort of details they put on their linkedin, might be of use

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the tips ive heard were:
try to keep it to 1 page
list only relevant skills
use the formula "did x using y resulting in z", ie "optimised release pipeline using travis resulting in 30% faster deploy times"
dont include a picture
avoid fluff

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 3:55 PM

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I don't know how to add STAR

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other than that my resume is good

tawdry remnant Jun 11, 2019, 3:57 PM

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the google recruiters really pushed STAR

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like they kept repeating that formula

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 4:00 PM

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STAR is just bullshitting some numbers and i don't know what to put

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Im not a good bullshitter

tawdry remnant Jun 11, 2019, 4:09 PM

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it shouldnt be bullshit, doesnt need to be numbers either, you could say "faster load times" if you dont have concrete numbers, although then its kinda hard to prove you made it faster if you don't have metrics

vernal lily Jun 11, 2019, 4:13 PM

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if you don't have exact metrics don't give fake numbers

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try and use descriptive words

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but numbers might need to be backed up

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 4:13 PM

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🐷

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Well i cant do star

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I don't have any metrics

tawdry remnant Jun 11, 2019, 4:14 PM

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i guess omit the R part then

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if you really dont have any Result to show, even if its just anecdotal

vernal lily Jun 11, 2019, 4:15 PM

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only do STAR if you actually have it

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don't fake it

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 4:16 PM

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So i made an android app like Uber delivery for universities

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What would r be

vernal lily Jun 11, 2019, 4:18 PM

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downloads

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or sales

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 4:19 PM

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thinkmon this app has 1m downloads and annual revenue of 5m

vernal lily Jun 11, 2019, 4:20 PM

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if you have annual revenue of 5m

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then stop applying for jobs

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go live on a tropical island

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🌴

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 4:20 PM

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vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 5:14 PM

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well, im on version 46 of my resume

tawdry remnant Jun 11, 2019, 5:47 PM

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damn

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have you had a look at resume writing services?

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 5:57 PM

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no, its pretty good rn

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its just i have a bunch of projects, my edu and walmart

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0 professional experience

tawdry remnant Jun 11, 2019, 6:02 PM

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ahh ye the 0 experience might be holding you back

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have you looked at applying for internships?

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/placements

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 6:19 PM

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yes

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i just started to apply everywhere-

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im just going to shotgun

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like 5 a day

green sinew Jun 11, 2019, 7:05 PM

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I've been very lucky: If got work experiences with a large hotel, a cyber security firm, Glasgow University and a large local hotel all lined up for this year

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Experience is really useful, and I think starting to think about it early rather than later is a good idea

potent solar Jun 11, 2019, 7:09 PM

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@vapid jay how's your cover letter game?

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good luck!

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 7:43 PM

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wrong creamy

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but i have the same answer

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pretty poor cover letter

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@potent solar

potent solar Jun 11, 2019, 7:54 PM

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oops, lmao

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cover letters are, unfortunately, important

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at least, they have been when we've hired on my team

tawdry remnant Jun 11, 2019, 7:55 PM

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really? i think it depends on the company

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in the UK i dont know many people who wrote cover letters

potent solar Jun 11, 2019, 7:55 PM

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it's pretty standard in the US

tawdry remnant Jun 11, 2019, 7:55 PM

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or maybe its just from my small group of friends that i knew through the process

potent solar Jun 11, 2019, 7:55 PM

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and it sucks cuz it's just really formulaic usually

tawdry remnant Jun 11, 2019, 7:56 PM

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ye they seem kinda tacky and kiss assey?

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 7:57 PM

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i use a default cover letter with a default resume

potent solar Jun 11, 2019, 7:57 PM

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tailored cover letters are really helpful but also really work intensive

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 7:57 PM

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meh

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alot of effort

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when ur shotgunning

potent solar Jun 11, 2019, 7:57 PM

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what kind of job are you looking for?

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 7:58 PM

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entry level se

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amywhere in the states

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ive only recently been applying everywhere

potent solar Jun 11, 2019, 7:59 PM

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well, depending on what exactly you wanna do, looking into research/academia might be helpful

tawdry remnant Jun 11, 2019, 7:59 PM

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@potent solar idk if you would know this, but is it true that companies are aware if someone has been spamming recruitment offers everywhere? i heard this some time ago and im really not sure if its true

potent solar Jun 11, 2019, 8:00 PM

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it doesn't pay well, is the thing

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@tawdry remnant I have no idea. I've never worked with a recruiter or anything like that really?

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i work at a university actually

tawdry remnant Jun 11, 2019, 8:00 PM

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oh sorry, got the impression you were part of the decision making in recruitment for your team, mb

potent solar Jun 11, 2019, 8:01 PM

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I am! sort of. but it's not normal tech-stuff, I just get drafted in for interviews for our team (for reference, "our team" is grad students and, like, 4 staff)

tawdry remnant Jun 11, 2019, 8:01 PM

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ahh right :p

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thanks for clearing that up 😃

vapid jay Jun 11, 2019, 8:02 PM

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oh

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u looking to hire, sam\

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potent solar Jun 11, 2019, 8:04 PM

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nah, we just filled stuff :/

unkempt ferry Jun 12, 2019, 2:47 AM

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Is there a resource to see what tech stacks are in demand in certain areas? Or is it pretty location agnostic?

weak moth Jun 12, 2019, 3:08 AM

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I mean it depends on whether you're looking for an office gig or work from home. With work from home it doesn't matter where the demand is as you can work there regardless. An office job would be different, and I'm not sure of the resources in demand for that. We could theoretically build something out to look at job posting sites and aggregate based on state or city

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That could be a fun little project...

unkempt ferry Jun 12, 2019, 3:25 AM

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Since i don’t have experience, I would be looking for an office job. (I would absolutely be open to remote, but everything seems to be for senior devs on remote positions)

keen needle Jun 12, 2019, 5:31 AM

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!helps

vapid jay Jun 12, 2019, 6:14 AM

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hi

robust ginkgo Jun 12, 2019, 5:02 PM

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does anyone have experience with Bloomberg in the UK? I'm interviewing for entry level software and am wondering what the tech is like. ofc they all say "we're a tech company at the cutting edge" etc, but I've also heard people say it's dead boring and full of old tech? also wondering if I could actually stick w python there. I don't have a comp sci degree and no experience w C or C++ and not really keen to get into it if I'm being honest

tawny flower Jun 12, 2019, 5:06 PM

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@green sinew I am currently in Glasgow Uni.

green sinew Jun 12, 2019, 5:06 PM

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@tawny flower Nice! what degree?

tawny flower Jun 12, 2019, 5:06 PM

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Computing Science

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You?

green sinew Jun 12, 2019, 5:14 PM

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Im doing physics next year

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Theoretical probs

tawny flower Jun 12, 2019, 5:14 PM

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Ah alright, good luck! If you have any questions let me know since some information are hidden pretty well or just not available online for some reason.

green sinew Jun 12, 2019, 5:45 PM

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@tawny flower Well, a lot of the questions I need answered are physics related

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I was going to be going to the Glasgow open day (its tommorow)

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But not now, going in september

sonic rock Jun 12, 2019, 6:01 PM

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i am in my final school year and i want to make my career in programming idk about the scope in this field or what qualifications i need can some tell me about that a lil

gloomy lagoon Jun 12, 2019, 7:40 PM

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@robust ginkgo it’s an open secret that the rejects from cool fin tech places go there instead

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If you can’t get into eg Two Sigma, Jane Street, HRT, etc then it’s the next tier down that has a name for tech

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But their interview process is that they favor people with strong academics rather than actual talent and so they hire a lot of 4.0s that are ineffective and have lower brainpower

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Bloomberg is reputed to have very bad Engineering talent on average and if you can’t get into Fb/Goog/Microsoft then it might be worth trying there too

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But if you get FANG skip Bloomberg

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Also pays pitiful for NYC

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I have a feeling they won’t even look at your application since you say you don’t have a comp sci degree

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Their interview process is totally broken for this reason

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Avoid if possible

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Also to answer your question more directly. No Bloomberg is not on the cutting edge of anything unless you are talking research in which case they probably are good but you’d need a PhD in a quantitative field or ML

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It also beats say, Morgan Stanley or whatever for software engineering but that’s admittedly pretty poorly regarded as a place to work as a SWE

robust ginkgo Jun 12, 2019, 7:59 PM

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@gloomy lagoon ah okie good to know. thanks for the info. I'll still go along to interview just for the practice I think. it'll probably be good experience yeah? do you think the interview will be similar to other SW roles?
yeah I don't have a comp sci degree (I'm mech eng), but I've been teaching myself while on the job (not a software company) and have just started submitting applications to move into a software role. def don't think I have what it takes to apply for FANG rn though; only really been coding for like 6mo. only have two other interviews so really just getting started

gloomy lagoon Jun 12, 2019, 8:00 PM

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I mean if you get the job, take it if you want to start being a SWE

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It’s still better than most other companies in prestige and profile

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But you’ll probably have to work hard on your own outside of work to advance yourself

robust ginkgo Jun 12, 2019, 8:02 PM

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yeah suppose that's true. might be smarter in the long run though to work somewhere with more current tech though so the skills I develop will be more transferrable ya know

gloomy lagoon Jun 12, 2019, 8:05 PM

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Nah I worked at a place with crappy old tech and now I’m in FANG right after

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Did studying and work on my own time though

robust ginkgo Jun 12, 2019, 8:08 PM

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oh that's awesome, dude!
yeah been working outside of work as well, but am feeling like I've reached a bit of a plateau n don't feel like I'm improving as much. that's why I'm wanting to make the jump now. encouraging to hear how much you were able to excel on your own tho!

gloomy lagoon Jun 12, 2019, 8:15 PM

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CS is in a state where unless you want to do research, your degree and credentials are largely meaningless. It’s a total meritocracy

#

The downside is that lots of people are working long hours after their job to improve their skills and/or expand them

#

I think the one area that’s most worth studying is picking up algorithms books and working through them, especially in specialized fields like parallel algorithms, string algorithms, etc

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And then studying large systems that are open source for inspiration

#

I recommend studying the Linux kernel source code. Or something else that’s significant and of high engineering quality like the Git project

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Also doesn’t hurt to try and just work with really fundamental stuff. Try to do something weird with networking/sockets or parallelism. Maybe look into GPU programming

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At the end of the day, knowing “a tech stack” is a really weak qualification, because in reality anyone can learn a tech stack easily on the job

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Fundamentals are much more important and elusive

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So don’t worry about working on “old tech” as long as it’s not terrible like Visual Basic or COBOL or something

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Worry more about working on something generic and repetitive

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As in, worry if that’s all you’re doing

robust ginkgo Jun 12, 2019, 8:31 PM

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damn this is some great advice and I really appreciate it; thanks a lot!
I do feel like the way I've learned hasn't been super well thought out. I'm just picking up the concepts I need to know to solve the problems I'm having at the time and not going very deep into the fundamentals. I'll def spend the time getting a deeper understanding of algorithms. do you have a book you'd recommend to start w?

rough ridge Jun 12, 2019, 8:33 PM

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!resources

inner wrenBOT Jun 12, 2019, 8:33 PM

#

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected goodies that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

rough ridge Jun 12, 2019, 8:34 PM

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I recommend: automate the boring stuff with python

robust ginkgo Jun 12, 2019, 8:34 PM

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def agree about the 'tech stack'. I'm trying to stick to just a couple of languages so I can focus on getting a deeper understanding of the underlying concepts

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thanks @rough ridge for the resource link! sorry I'm new to the server n should have checked

rough ridge Jun 12, 2019, 8:34 PM

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Np,

gloomy lagoon Jun 12, 2019, 8:35 PM

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Eh I dunno what the help link recommends

#

Haven’t read the list here

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I can say that it should be something like Introduction to Algorithms though

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If you can read Art of Computer Programming by Knuth end to end you’ll be better than 99% of devs

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After that, try books that are more intended for an academic audience, the ones aimed at general audiences tend to be lacking

robust ginkgo Jun 12, 2019, 8:36 PM

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adding that to my list. thanks for the rec. I'll have a Google for recommended algorithm books

gloomy lagoon Jun 12, 2019, 8:37 PM

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Good luck! Feel free to message me if you want more resources I found useful (would send links but busy at work so gotta go)

robust ginkgo Jun 12, 2019, 8:38 PM

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sounds good, thanks a lot for the advice! really appreciate it

vapid jay Jun 12, 2019, 10:29 PM

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until i get an interview if i do,
is there anything i should be studying

tawdry remnant Jun 12, 2019, 10:30 PM

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interview questions and algorithms

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guessing youve already been doing that?

vapid jay Jun 12, 2019, 10:34 PM

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so like hacker rank and leetcode?

tawdry remnant Jun 12, 2019, 10:35 PM

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yup, practicing those, knowing certain algorithms helps, if you have the money a highly recommended book is "Cracking the coding interview" by the Hackerrank founder, they also have a playlist on youtube with important concepts

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knowing big o notation

vapid jay Jun 12, 2019, 10:41 PM

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i torrented the book

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well

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i hate leeting and hacking,. oh well

tawdry remnant Jun 12, 2019, 10:42 PM

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ye but unfortunately its a core part of the interview process :/

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i dont enjoy it either, but its key

vapid jay Jun 12, 2019, 10:43 PM

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how do u study leetcode and hackerrank

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i just try and memorize the solutions

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and the big o notations

tawdry remnant Jun 12, 2019, 10:44 PM

#

hackerrank has an interview questions section

vapid jay Jun 12, 2019, 10:45 PM

#

arent they like hard leet questions for faang

tawdry remnant Jun 12, 2019, 10:45 PM

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learn how to analyse and determine the time complexity of an algorithm, cos sometimes they will show you a random algorithm and ask for it

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i havent used leet so cant comment

vapid jay Jun 12, 2019, 10:45 PM

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hard hackerrank questions

tawdry remnant Jun 12, 2019, 10:46 PM

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but they arent all hard, they are just pretty typical and also cover concepts you should know

#

and with practice you learn to identify the general rules for finding the optimal algorithms (hint, it almost always involves a dictionary)

vapid jay Jun 12, 2019, 10:47 PM

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dicts are hashmaps?

tawdry remnant Jun 12, 2019, 10:47 PM

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yup

vapid jay Jun 12, 2019, 10:48 PM

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thanks

tawdry remnant Jun 12, 2019, 10:49 PM

#

np 😃 also practice explaining your thought process, and also making sure to ask questions and brainstorming before coding

vapid jay Jun 12, 2019, 10:53 PM

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hmmm

📎 unknown.png

main thicket Jun 12, 2019, 10:57 PM

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@vapid jay you shouldn't be memorising :/ what happens when you encounter a problem you've never seen before

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Because more likely than not, it will be something you've never seen before

tawdry remnant Jun 12, 2019, 10:57 PM

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^

main thicket Jun 12, 2019, 10:58 PM

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I wouldn't say optimal almost always involves dictionaries

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Maybe at the low level questions

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But that's only optimising stuff that you should be aware of anyway

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Also almost every time you'll have a problem where the right thing to do is to use a dictionary, they'll ask about it's space complexity and make you find a space optimal solution

gloomy lagoon Jun 12, 2019, 11:23 PM

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Honestly with half of “easy” leetcode problems are just “use a hashmap” and half of “medium” leetcode are “use a priority queue”

#

Studying the data structures and algorithms is better than the problems for that reason lol

#

Also a large number of medium problems on leetcode use very basic algorithmic building blocks like quick select or 1 dimensional dynamic programming arrays

#

If you memorized problems you’d just end up being stuck when you encounter one with a 3D dynamic programming array

vapid jay Jun 12, 2019, 11:25 PM

#

3d vectors

#

shocked

#

ive only used 2d arrays

gloomy lagoon Jun 12, 2019, 11:28 PM

#

I remember doing a leetcode hard for a contest a while back where I tried using a 3D array to keep state between iterations

#

Wasn’t the optimal solution though it worked and passed

#

Felt stupid when I realized it was more optimal as a depth first search

#

Untimed and no pressure it would be obvious but timed for a contest or an interview some bets are off

#

Hence it’s good to know the building blocks to at least have one good way of solving a problem

vapid jay Jun 12, 2019, 11:30 PM

#

i know what dfs, i forget how to implement it

#

I see a lot of different data structures online that seem to be very specific but I was wondering if there was like a basic amount that I should know for back-end development. I am assuming at least trees, graphs, and the basic linear ones

gloomy lagoon Jun 12, 2019, 11:30 PM

#

Well you should remember for interviews, that’s really unacceptable to not know imo

vapid jay Jun 12, 2019, 11:30 PM

#

like many other algo

gloomy lagoon Jun 12, 2019, 11:31 PM

#

@vapid jay I mean the rabbit hole goes very deep

#

There’s always a better algorithm

#

So the more the better, and I’m not sure where the line is drawn

vapid jay Jun 12, 2019, 11:31 PM

#

I feel like some of these are very very specific but I could understand if the response would be learn as many as you can

#

i never use dfs, so i forget how to use eit

gloomy lagoon Jun 12, 2019, 11:31 PM

#

That would be my response

#

It’s probably good to know as much as an undergrad knows from a good institution

#

Which is probably those structures you listed, plus understanding some NP problems and some optimal solutions. Say, N Queens

vapid jay Jun 12, 2019, 11:33 PM

#

im a grad

gloomy lagoon Jun 12, 2019, 11:33 PM

#

Or the knapsack problem

#

@vapid jay grads are very much expected to know DFS lol

#

Get studying honestly

vapid jay Jun 12, 2019, 11:38 PM

#

grumpy i know what is is, i just forget

gloomy lagoon Jun 12, 2019, 11:40 PM

#

I meant as in, you should be able to immediately throw up what it is and how it works and write a solution out in a few minutes

vapid jay Jun 12, 2019, 11:41 PM

#

ye i know but i forget

vapid jay Jun 13, 2019, 12:16 AM

#

hiring season starts in a couple months?

#

in august

vapid jay Jun 13, 2019, 2:30 AM

#

are bootcamps worth it?

vernal lily Jun 13, 2019, 2:46 AM

#

no

#

honestly you can learn more from Discord than from bootcamps

dry sapphire Jun 13, 2019, 2:48 AM

#

I went for a bootcamp

#

I learnt a lot more by myself than I did there

#

marketing was great, though, so that really helped, since there's a huge information gap

vapid jay Jun 13, 2019, 2:55 AM

#

hmm i see

#

so i just graduated in economics, and i no longer have interest in it... i have a newfound passion for coding, what's my best path?

#

i read about the bootcamps, but rumors are that recruiters dislike bootcampers

main thicket Jun 13, 2019, 3:00 AM

#

software is a meritocracy. develop skills. show those skills. you'll probably get hired somewhere if you can do that

#

if you know how to code, go code up a cool project

vapid jay Jun 13, 2019, 3:01 AM

#

gotcha so i guess build as much quality projects as possible and push it to github as a portfolio?

#

Also check out local user groups off a site like meetup, or attend conferences in your areas and network with people.

main thicket Jun 13, 2019, 3:02 AM

#

that also

#

hackathons, meetups, competitions, talks and whatnot

vapid jay Jun 13, 2019, 3:03 AM

#

got it, will definitely try one of them

sturdy hearth Jun 13, 2019, 4:00 AM

#

Do you guys have any advice for finding a mentor?

whole bobcat Jun 13, 2019, 9:05 AM

#

careers

#

hmmmmmmmm

vapid jay Jun 13, 2019, 9:22 AM

#

anyone use nodeJS at work.. what do you use it for..

indigo sleet Jun 13, 2019, 9:23 AM

#

I think most people use it for webapps and websocket servers

#

But it is often used for discrete apps too, like bots

vernal lily Jun 13, 2019, 9:23 AM

#

Express is the most popular Node HTTP framework

#

this is a rank of NPM (Node) packages https://gist.github.com/anvaka/8e8fa57c7ee1350e3491

Gist

npm rank

npm rank. GitHub Gist: instantly share code, notes, and snippets.

#

its a really big mixture

vapid jay Jun 13, 2019, 9:27 AM

#

I've used it a long time ago.. for hosting a chat application.. but seems like it's really popular in iot now.. wondering if I should pick it up

vernal lily Jun 13, 2019, 9:28 AM

#

seems like a decent choice for IOT yeah
cos Node modules tend to be small and modular

indigo sleet Jun 13, 2019, 9:28 AM

#

I wouldn't say node itself is that small

#

I have used node for iot work, specifically zigbee and websockets on a beagleboard

#

It's fast but I dunno if it's well suited to it

vernal lily Jun 13, 2019, 9:29 AM

#

I guess its a bit heavy

#

but you get nice easy websocket libraries like you said

#

I see a lot of people on reddit do a web project in node then re-write in golang to get the hardware resource usage lower

leaden talon Jun 13, 2019, 1:18 PM

#

Hello guys. I am looking for some advice in planning my course of action. I have been working with Python on freelancer.com for almost 2 years now, mainly doing small projects like web scraping, not to complicated gui apps, simple web apps, selenium, bug fixing etc. I am looking to get a full time job as Python developer. I never worked in the indsutry and self learned programming. Should i focus on buliding up my skills more or can I laverege my freelancing experience for getting a job ( i have over 100 projects comoleted on freelancer.com) Thanks in advance and apologies if its a wrong place to ask this

#

also I live in EU if that changes anything

brittle solstice Jun 13, 2019, 1:30 PM

#

do you have a place for people to look at your projects?

#

@leaden talon

leaden talon Jun 13, 2019, 1:31 PM

#

Beside the freelancer.com porfolio on my profile not really, I have been planning to take some of better ones and put them on github and some kind of portfolio website

brittle solstice Jun 13, 2019, 1:31 PM

#

what helped me get internships I think was having projects on github with good documentation

leaden talon Jun 13, 2019, 1:32 PM

#

ok thanks i will take note of that

random dragon Jun 13, 2019, 2:55 PM

#

does anyone here run a dev shop

vapid jay Jun 13, 2019, 10:47 PM

#

do you have a link to ur github?

#

@brittle solstice

brittle solstice Jun 14, 2019, 12:57 AM

#

Dm me rice

hard spruce Jun 14, 2019, 1:03 AM

#

Hey, is anyone a data scientist that wouldn't mind me asking them questions about their career?

main thicket Jun 14, 2019, 1:03 AM

#

justask

vapid jay Jun 14, 2019, 5:52 AM

#

what are application layer skills..

craggy wave Jun 14, 2019, 5:59 AM

#

Probably related to the application layer in network protocols

#

Uhm, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_layer explains it better than I could, because I don't know a lot about CS.

tawny quartz Jun 14, 2019, 6:01 AM

#

Apps

#

Anything that uses networking with some level of abstraction

#

e.g. making web requests

#

Not working with sockets directly or anything lower

vapid jay Jun 14, 2019, 6:02 AM

#

yeah me neither.. someone asked me if I had these skills.. during an interview.. does nodejs count?

tawny quartz Jun 14, 2019, 6:02 AM

#

Probably?

vapid jay Jun 14, 2019, 6:02 AM

#

good enough for me.. lol.. but yeah I'd like to learn more.. lemme ask the folks at adafruit, see if they can offer some advice..

craggy wave Jun 14, 2019, 6:10 AM

#

As an example, HTTP is an application layer protocol, as it SSH I think

vapid jay Jun 14, 2019, 6:14 AM

#

so like.. building an api

tawny quartz Jun 14, 2019, 6:23 AM

#

Yes

lime hamlet Jun 14, 2019, 6:50 AM

#

So, I'm applying for my first internship right now and I need some tips

#

I've been studying a little over a year and I'm currently in school for compsci. This particular company says that it's fine that I haven't graduated yet

#

I want to be honest about my ability without underselling myself and I'm little unsure of how to word it

halcyon plank Jun 14, 2019, 8:05 AM

#

Hello there! I am a newbie in programming and I chose python as my fundamental language and wants to learn it completely (or as much as I can)

#

I took two of Microsoft's courses from Edx covering basics of Python (strings, lists, conditionals, functions & methods such as find count join spilt etc )

#

I was wondering what should I start next. Can anyone suggest a good online course?

indigo sleet Jun 14, 2019, 8:07 AM

#

#python-discussion is probably a better place for that question, but check this out

#

!resources

inner wrenBOT Jun 14, 2019, 8:07 AM

#

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected goodies that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

indigo sleet Jun 14, 2019, 8:08 AM

#

Fluent Python might be a good option if you've covered classes already

#

You could also start writing a project - there are project suggestions pinned in #python-discussion

halcyon plank Jun 14, 2019, 8:18 AM

#

Ok thanks @indigo sleet!

halcyon plank Jun 14, 2019, 8:49 AM

#

Ok help we with this. It's a posting for internship as software engineer

#

📎 image0.png 📎 image1.png

#

Say if I want to apply for this internship & am just a newbie in programming

#

Then what should I learn? And from where?

vapid jay Jun 14, 2019, 8:50 AM

#

well if you're going to learn.. it's going to take you a while to apply

main thicket Jun 14, 2019, 8:50 AM

#

For Google, you should have previous internship experience and/or significant personal projects to get the interview. Then you need decent amount of algorithms and data structures knowledge to pass the interview.

halcyon plank Jun 14, 2019, 8:51 AM

#

Ok

#

Should i focus on one or two languages?

#

Or just learn everything basically

main thicket Jun 14, 2019, 8:52 AM

#

One is enough. You'll likely know two at least by the time you're google ready. If you don't have a lot of time, focus on one

#

To add on, can skip to the interview with a more mediocre resume if you know someone at Google and can convince them you're competent enough to give you a referral

halcyon plank Jun 14, 2019, 8:53 AM

#

Am a high school student abt to go to college, so you can say that it have like 3-4 years

vapid jay Jun 14, 2019, 8:53 AM

#

C++, python, javascript..

#

you can't go wrong with any of these

halcyon plank Jun 14, 2019, 8:54 AM

#

Which language should I target provided that I want to be a software developer (not a website developer or designer )

vapid jay Jun 14, 2019, 8:54 AM

#

find what's built using these.. find what you like building.. and you'll find your calling

halcyon plank Jun 14, 2019, 8:54 AM

#

Ok..

main thicket Jun 14, 2019, 8:54 AM

#

You have a lot of time, should be fine

#

Choose any language you like the sound of

#

It doesn't really matter

halcyon plank Jun 14, 2019, 8:55 AM

#

Just one thing : If I want to build applications, be it for Android or ios or pc...Then I would fall under the category of software developer or web developer or something other?

main thicket Jun 14, 2019, 8:56 AM

#

Web developers are also software developers. If you don't want to make websites, just avoid JavaScript

halcyon plank Jun 14, 2019, 8:56 AM

#

And can one man singlehandedly build one whole application?

main thicket Jun 14, 2019, 8:56 AM

#

Depends on the application, but yes.

halcyon plank Jun 14, 2019, 8:56 AM

#

Or its like his job will be to make a part of it

#

Okayyy @main thicket

main thicket Jun 14, 2019, 8:58 AM

#

In a large organisation (Google, and most software companies), you'll be working as part of a larger team most likely. Smaller Dev shops might be working on your own. Your own projects can always be on your own

halcyon plank Jun 14, 2019, 8:58 AM

#

Okay now am getting it

#

Btw.. Is python the most popular language for now?

main thicket Jun 14, 2019, 8:59 AM

#

It's hard to measure. I wouldn't worry about it

halcyon plank Jun 14, 2019, 8:59 AM

#

😂 okay @main thicket

#

I started with python a few weeks ago

#

Like complete basics as I didn't know anything about it

#

I was taught about how print statement works, how to get input

#

About strings, lists, (not about dictionary ), functions conditions anders some methods such as sort, reverse, join split, len and many more

#

So what should I learn next?

#

Any particular topic?

main thicket Jun 14, 2019, 9:03 AM

#

!resources

inner wrenBOT Jun 14, 2019, 9:03 AM

#

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected goodies that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

halcyon plank Jun 14, 2019, 9:04 AM

#

I took this course

https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-to-python-absolute-beginner-3

edX

Introduction to Python: Absolute Beginner

In this course that’s perfect for true beginners, learn Python basics and start coding right away.

#

And this

https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-to-python-fundamentals-3

edX

Build on what you learned in the Introduction to Python: Absolute Beginner course, and dig into data structure basics.

#

Okay @main thicket

vapid jay Jun 14, 2019, 9:07 AM

#

this is pretty good initiative for a high school kid..

#

if you keep this up.. and not get distracted in college.. you'll have a great career

#

I just learned that @vivid breach never majored in CS. That’s so cool

indigo sleet Jun 14, 2019, 9:10 AM

#

CS majors are overrated and, honestly, not entirely related to programming

#

Many companies are moving to portfolio evaluations these days

halcyon plank Jun 14, 2019, 9:11 AM

#

Thanks @vapid jay and everyone else

main thicket Jun 14, 2019, 9:11 AM

#

Programming and CS are very unrelated. And pretty much every STEM major is taught programming

halcyon plank Jun 14, 2019, 9:12 AM

#

I hope to make it to Google someday 😄

vapid jay Jun 14, 2019, 9:12 AM

#

Awesome, this is actually good for a lot of people who want to transition into programming jobs

indigo sleet Jun 14, 2019, 9:12 AM

#

Not sure I 100% agree with that

#

Many STEM majors are taught programming, but they're taught it in the context of their major

#

someone taught programming in the context of CS has probably done a bunch of asm, which is what we did on our CS course at uni

main thicket Jun 14, 2019, 9:14 AM

#

ASM is also done by anyone doing anything midlly related to electrical engineering. Also of all the skills, you chose asm, probably one of the most useless skills?

indigo sleet Jun 14, 2019, 9:14 AM

#

you say that like I had a choice

#

we did very basic procedural PHP and some ASM

main thicket Jun 14, 2019, 9:15 AM

#

Also programming related to another major is not that different from programming in the context of CS. Both are taught basic programming content. CS majors learn to make unholy abuse of classes under the guise of abstraction while other majors may learn to do scientific programming.

vapid jay Jun 14, 2019, 9:15 AM

#

Is asm even useful or required in most coding jobs?

indigo sleet Jun 14, 2019, 9:15 AM

#

Not really

main thicket Jun 14, 2019, 9:15 AM

#

Nope and nope

vapid jay Jun 14, 2019, 9:16 AM

#

asm?

main thicket Jun 14, 2019, 9:16 AM

#

assembly

vapid jay Jun 14, 2019, 9:16 AM

#

wow

indigo sleet Jun 14, 2019, 9:16 AM

#

yep

#

samphire in our case

vapid jay Jun 14, 2019, 9:16 AM

#

Then I should be good with just knowing python xD

#

we have microprocessors and microcontrollers:P does that count

indigo sleet Jun 14, 2019, 9:17 AM

#

not even close

#

:P

main thicket Jun 14, 2019, 9:17 AM

#

That's how I learnt it, I'd say it counts

#

AVR asm ftw

vapid jay Jun 14, 2019, 9:18 AM

#

avr huh.. fancy..

#

back in my day..we have 8085..

main thicket Jun 14, 2019, 9:18 AM

#

Actually still a common choice! I know a couple unis that still use them

vapid jay Jun 14, 2019, 9:18 AM

#

and we built our own fires

main thicket Jun 14, 2019, 9:19 AM

#

When you want to go teach basics, you can either use a really old chip or use a new weak chip

#

Ends up being about the same

grizzled sundial Jun 14, 2019, 9:25 AM

#

Knowing assembly (and how processors function and interact with peripherals) is useful for kernel development.

main thicket Jun 14, 2019, 9:26 AM

#

Such a niche though. Very few people have the opportunity to do kernel dev other than people who contribute to Linux etc in their free time or those that work at Microsoft or something.

#

Generally not the python kind of people

grizzled sundial Jun 14, 2019, 9:27 AM

#

People who do kernel development write other software, too.

#

Generally I find myself debugging and/or writing drivers, then using Python to bring them out to an application.

fervent scarab Jun 14, 2019, 10:15 AM

#

How far can my own Python project get me regardé la career search?

#

Like, I'm doing an undergraduate which foams at the mouth at the thought of anything computational, and I'm trying to do something codebased to steer my career in that direction. I'm currently reading a book based on Natural Language Processing in Python, and am going through the chapters and doing its exercises until I finish with it and then pick up other code languages / toolkits that might help a potential project. Can I do anything better?

vapid jay Jun 14, 2019, 10:44 AM

#

what's your major in

fervent scarab Jun 14, 2019, 11:13 AM

#

Linguistics.

vapid jay Jun 14, 2019, 11:17 AM

#

well.. maybe you can be a linguist some day..

#

if you want to do nlp with computation.. it helps to study computational linguistics..

#

don't go the research route without getting into industry.. get a job first then do research or phd on the side

#

which language are you a studying linguistics in.. french?

fervent scarab Jun 14, 2019, 11:18 AM

#

Mm, the linguistics is more in phonetics / phonology.

#

The major is a more broad like, "this is how children acquire language" "this is what a corpora is" "this is semantic theory" etc

#

England hasn't got many options for Computational Linguistics, but I do intend on doing a Masters.

vapid jay Jun 14, 2019, 11:19 AM

#

so speech then

#

fun

#

doesn't oxford have a program..

#

you can't get into industry without focusing on topics that are of relevant interest

#

if you're involved in speech.. it's code heavy.. you should focus more on computation

#

linguistic concepts become just a suggestion..

#

but it's the easiest one to get hired in.. if you can publish some novel application

fervent scarab Jun 14, 2019, 11:27 AM

#

I wanted to try publishing a translator into a fictional language, just to understand things like TensorFlow and Festival.

vapid jay Jun 14, 2019, 11:28 AM

#

not sure what festival is

#

I'll be honest.. you're gonna have a hard time if you're going this humanities route..

fervent scarab Jun 14, 2019, 11:29 AM

#

It's a text to speech toolkit

vapid jay Jun 14, 2019, 11:29 AM

#

industry does not care about fictional languages.. or DL models that write poems

fervent scarab Jun 14, 2019, 11:30 AM

#

But surely it would be evidence that I know skills?

vapid jay Jun 14, 2019, 11:30 AM

#

these are not even things that Phd's work on.. and they're the research guys who get free rein in industry.. to do things they want to do, as long as it's useful for the company..

#

an example would be : a model that recognizes and distinguishes multiple languages and dialects at the same time..

#

that's not enough I'm afraid..

#

you need to find something useful you can work on.. and do that..

#

when I mean useful.. I mean.. something that can be applied somewhere with real tangible results.. You don't have to be successful.. that's the thing

#

but that is the sort of convincing evidence that will get you far

fervent scarab Jun 14, 2019, 11:37 AM

#

I just thought that initially doing something I felt enthuastic about, learning the basic concepts of skills, and then doing a project that was industry relevant and more marketable (like the model you described) would be more successful. Something something, I'm young, and I think I have the time to do this sort of stuff.

#

But, okay. I'll consider what you've said and think about reorienting.

vapid jay Jun 14, 2019, 11:38 AM

#

I used to want to save the world :v was pretty successful in my projects too..

#

did modelling to demonstrate efficiency of equipment in novel methods for emission control.. turned out.. people didn't care about spending $ on equipment meant for controlling pollution

#

I did manage it to some extent.. working a company where I got to implement some measures.. but

#

https://slideplayer.com/slide/10453035/35/images/12/Another+Venn+Diagram+Interests+%26+Passions+%26+Values+Viable+Industry.jpg

rare sand Jun 14, 2019, 12:54 PM

#

oh hey, I win

#

I love venn diagrams where I win

vivid breach Jun 14, 2019, 1:00 PM

#

@vapid jay Yes that's true. There are many paths to get a programming job, a CS degree is just one of them. Not to be confused with any degree. It will be pretty challenging to get a programming job without any degree at all, but that's still possible these days. That challenge is getting harder and harder, since the pool of applicants who can program and have a degree is getting larger and most companies would have no reason to consider applicants w/o any degree. At the end of the day though, places need some sort of "proof" that you know what they need you to know. That can come in many forms.

rare sand Jun 14, 2019, 1:10 PM

#

hear hear. I found my way to a developer job without a degree, but it wasn't easy.

#

my "proof" was in the form of a nice GitHub profile with lots of open source contributions, relevant E-Learning certs from coursera and edX, and doing really well at a technical test they gave me.

#

took me years to work up to a point where I had enough to impress someone. a degree probably would've been a path of far less friction.

#

(and many failed attempts to break into the industry)

stray wind Jun 14, 2019, 3:10 PM

#

Ah seems this might be most suitable for me..

#

So I'm a junior (graduate) java developer 1 years commercial experience .. But I'm being considered for a python developing role (plc dev) I'm wondering would it have much of an impact on my career

#

Leaving java for python?

rare sand Jun 14, 2019, 3:20 PM

#

in my experience, programming is programming once you get your foot in the door. if you know Java and have years of experience as a developer on any language, you'll probably be considered for jobs of most other languages.

#

I constantly get approached for jobs with stacks I have zero experience with.

#

a skilled programmer can usually pick up a new language without too much trouble and I think you'll find that potential employers know that.

gloomy lagoon Jun 14, 2019, 3:35 PM

#

This is all true

#

Also the more desired jobs (hedge funds, research labs, FANG) usually even just post job postings that are super generic like “very good at analytical and programming skills and knows at least one programming language!”

#

Programming is programming

uncut nexus Jun 14, 2019, 3:45 PM

#

I wanna work from home
What are some things the my employer will look in me ?

vapid jay Jun 14, 2019, 4:17 PM

#

Anyone ever call a hiring manager or recruiter while driving?

#

Wonder if that’d be a bad idea lol

sullen rock Jun 14, 2019, 8:15 PM

#

i dont think it would really matter as long as it's hands free

#

i know a lot of hiring managers that call while driving themselves

#

if they don't approve they are hypocrites

gloomy lagoon Jun 14, 2019, 8:33 PM

#

Yeah I’ve called hiring managers from the car all the time when I didn’t actually want the job feelsGladMan

vapid jay Jun 14, 2019, 9:47 PM

#

lmao

#

i'm at kind of a cross roads right now, I really want to be working in an environment where my job title is some sort of developer and my core job responsibilities are development (right now im in sort of a mix of an IT/development role, but my core responsibilities are the IT side like hardware deployments, maintaining, testing, etc). I've been shopping around for cool spots to work and found 2 or 3 (granted none are actually interested in me past initial phone calls yet) but I dont know if I should stick out projects im working on for my current company before leaving or what

#

it kinda sucks being the only person on a project because if i leave then nobody will pick it up

main thicket Jun 14, 2019, 9:51 PM

#

You gotta look out for yourself. Once you've found a place to leave for, just go, "hey I've found a better opportunity for myself elsewhere which I'm going to take. Since I'm the only person on the project, I'm giving a <reasonably long> notice and am willing to train someone to work on the project."

vapid jay Jun 14, 2019, 9:54 PM

#

yeah fair enough. whenever i start talking to other companies i start thinking like "do i really want to leave?" but i know that if i had been working in python or even a node stack for a year that id be way further along than i am right now and i hate that

#

have gotten a fair bit of random experience though

vapid jay Jun 14, 2019, 11:39 PM

#

life is short.. it's easy to want to live comfortably, we get used to routine some times.. it feels safe.. like what the boi above you said, you gotta look out for you sometimes..

#

💯

#

im thinking what ill do is in the event i get an offer from somewehre ill talk to someone i feel like i can trust at the company im at bfore i say anything to anyone

#

in my personal experience: if you get an offer at another company and the job is good, as in something you can accrue good experience from and will look good on your resume, there's no reason not to leave.. Sure, you can negotiate a raise at your existing company with the other offer but that will not pan out well.. unless you're in a top executive position (others should weigh in on this and cite their own experience)..

#

I have a question.. how do you guys track bugs at work?

rare sand Jun 14, 2019, 11:59 PM

#

github issues

vernal lily Jun 15, 2019, 12:00 AM

#

JIRA is common

#

I've seen JIRA used for non-tech stuff too

vapid jay Jun 15, 2019, 12:02 AM

#

would you use it for tracking if something was pushed to production too?

rare sand Jun 15, 2019, 12:02 AM

#

yeah JIRA is very common

#

we have a little of both

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:02 AM

#

I've had to use JIRA for work as well

#

Didn't like it, I'll say that, but it works

vernal lily Jun 15, 2019, 12:03 AM

#

Didn't like it, I'll say that, but it worksaha that was my experience of JIRA as well

main thicket Jun 15, 2019, 12:03 AM

#

Even people at Atlassian know JIRA is crap :P try https://www.notion.so/

Notion

Notion – The all-in-one workspace for your notes, tasks, wikis, ...

A new tool that blends your everyday work apps into one. It's the all-in-one workspace for you and your team

rare sand Jun 15, 2019, 12:06 AM

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the question wasn't "what's the best one"

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but yeah I don't like JIRA either

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before that we used Axosoft, which is even worse

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:09 AM

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JIRA is great for business technology analysts and product managers for sure

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For people who actually do the real work though it’s a pain to use JIRA

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I think JIRA being bad is more that it’s a highly sprint-oriented platform, and that agile in general is just pretty bad

#

UI is annoying but the real issue is the business philosophy behind it

vernal lily Jun 15, 2019, 12:11 AM

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why is agile so hyped

vapid jay Jun 15, 2019, 12:11 AM

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I see Fb has two different bug tracking systems.. one for user feedback and other internally..

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:11 AM

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By the book agile is awful

main thicket Jun 15, 2019, 12:11 AM

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Business majors who like making up frameworks and crap to make it seem like they contribute

vapid jay Jun 15, 2019, 12:11 AM

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they probably link the user feedback bug to their internal system

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:11 AM

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It has some useful parts though

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:12 AM

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I wouldn’t call it hype, more like a buzzword that unintelligent business people run with

vapid jay Jun 15, 2019, 12:12 AM

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Google has buganizer.. I think they've been using it since beginning..

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:12 AM

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@indigo sleet I think the reason it has useful parts is because those parts are the more common sense things that exist outside of agile too tbh

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:12 AM

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Like, I don't like sprints, but I do like stories

vapid jay Jun 15, 2019, 12:12 AM

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oooh it's open source

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:12 AM

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Yeah true

grizzled sundial Jun 15, 2019, 12:13 AM

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Agile practices help me divide work between my team, track how much work has been done, and demonstrate to the bean counters how much work is remaining.

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:13 AM

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I’m just unimpressed by anything a businessman touches. It’s all subjective and largely unmeasured Mumbo Jumbo

grizzled sundial Jun 15, 2019, 12:14 AM

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If you want to make money writing software, you're probably going to need to learn to work with Agile practices.

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:14 AM

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I mean you've basically summed up agile there seepho

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It's good for the managers

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:14 AM

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@grizzled sundial see I think I’d say that those benefits exist outside of agile as a system as well

rare sand Jun 15, 2019, 12:14 AM

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that's really not what they said.

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:14 AM

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The real solution is to fire the bean counters

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Find better systems of measurement

rare sand Jun 15, 2019, 12:15 AM

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yeah, no.

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:15 AM

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How are you gonna run a business without accountants lol

grizzled sundial Jun 15, 2019, 12:15 AM

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That sounds like a horribly ignorant point of view, ribs.

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:15 AM

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No I’ve worked and led agile teams

grizzled sundial Jun 15, 2019, 12:15 AM

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People with money need me to write software. Agile practices are a great way to quantify work, and react to changing business needs.

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:15 AM

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Business headcount at many companies is overinflated partially because of agile

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Next recession comes and half of them are gone

vapid jay Jun 15, 2019, 12:16 AM

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why do you say that.. I dont see how it correlates..

rare sand Jun 15, 2019, 12:16 AM

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yeah, those businesses suck, not agile

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:16 AM

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Yeah, pretty much

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:16 AM

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Well agile is just a bunch of common sense with an ideology surrounding it where the common sense makes... sense, but the ideology is largely fluff

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:16 AM

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Nobody should be hiring a dedicated scrum master

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:16 AM

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And fluff really gets in the way

rare sand Jun 15, 2019, 12:16 AM

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agile project management in and of itself is fine. businesses will take those frameworks and turn them into a beaurocratic mess, though.

grizzled sundial Jun 15, 2019, 12:17 AM

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Bad engineers can turn it into a mess, too.

main thicket Jun 15, 2019, 12:17 AM

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I think his point is that Agile's distinguishing features compared to other idiologies are mumbo jumbo while the other stuff is common sense that exist in basically every other ideology

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:17 AM

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Part of what “agile” I speak of encompasses is the largely ceremonial roles it adds to any team

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:17 AM

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I've had bad experiences with agile in a professional sense

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:17 AM

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Not the practices which would exist and be used anyways

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:17 AM

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When it comes to open source though, it can be applied well

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:18 AM

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I’ve worked on teams with as many businesspeople/analysts and there were devs

rare sand Jun 15, 2019, 12:18 AM

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it's easy to just call all the good parts common sense and the rest mumbo jumbo. that's sort of the point though, isn't it.

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:18 AM

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This is the reality of the workplace now

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:19 AM

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The problem with the implementations often tends to be like, some manager read the agile book and decided it was gospel

rare sand Jun 15, 2019, 12:19 AM

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agile isn't better than all those other methods. they're all fine. they're all more or less the same.

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:19 AM

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But like the Bible itself, the book is meant to be an interpretive aid

main thicket Jun 15, 2019, 12:19 AM

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I'm not sure I'd say they're all the same...

rare sand Jun 15, 2019, 12:19 AM

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a good business uses what they like and innovates on those

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:20 AM

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Hey lemon, one word

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Waterfall

rare sand Jun 15, 2019, 12:20 AM

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wafers? like cookies?

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:20 AM

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@rare sand I think my biggest issue is more that agile as a system tends to be followed with emphasis on “having an agile leader do this” and “daily standup” and “retrospectives” and “weekly scrum master!” And it’s all largely fluff and means you have to deal with largely incompetent businessmen

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:20 AM

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That's not a word, SwiftKey.

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:20 AM

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And most businesses are too lazy to cut the fat and assume it just has to go with it

rare sand Jun 15, 2019, 12:20 AM

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waterfall is like some 90s shit, get with the times g

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:20 AM

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A dev doesn’t have the power to cut it either

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:20 AM

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Exactly

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It's terrible

main thicket Jun 15, 2019, 12:20 AM

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Waterfall is fine for non-software work, lol

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:20 AM

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People still use it

swift veldt Jun 15, 2019, 12:21 AM

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Working on the other side of the aisle, I iz a risk/business project manager in finance, management of relations between the "IT" and the "Business" side is often hectic.

rare sand Jun 15, 2019, 12:21 AM

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sure, ribs, I'm not saying that doesn't happen. probably especially in the US, where I'm assuming you are.

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:21 AM

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Correct assumption

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:21 AM

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Those are the issues I had too, yeah

main thicket Jun 15, 2019, 12:21 AM

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Software is just a different thing from engineering so requires different work practices that take advantage of how quickly it's done and how easily you can go back and ammend. Waterfall is still used in engineering with success

rare sand Jun 15, 2019, 12:21 AM

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here in norway, I've never seen a dedicated scrum master or something silly like that

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:22 AM

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@swift veldt I bet you have some interesting opinions!

rare sand Jun 15, 2019, 12:22 AM

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we do daily standups but they're very simple.

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which they should be.

vernal lily Jun 15, 2019, 12:22 AM

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what's bad about waterfall?

grizzled sundial Jun 15, 2019, 12:22 AM

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Waterfall reacts poorly to change.

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:22 AM

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Waterfall just doesn’t work

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:22 AM

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The whole thing is flawed really, for software

main thicket Jun 15, 2019, 12:22 AM

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Waterfall isn't meant for quick feedback loops which software is capable of

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:23 AM

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With waterfall, whoever is the highest in the chain gets the list of tasks and takes what they want

swift veldt Jun 15, 2019, 12:23 AM

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Ohoh, indeed. Not great ones though because people are often not that.
Also, I'm kinda biased/jaded about it because project management where I am is often bullying reluctant people in doing stuff nobody likes
I blame the industry's state. Not the people though.

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:23 AM

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And passes the rest down

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Which means that the people at the bottom of the chain get all the tasks nobody wants to do

main thicket Jun 15, 2019, 12:24 AM

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📎 waterfall2x.png

vernal lily Jun 15, 2019, 12:24 AM

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looks like a fairly logical flowchart to me

main thicket Jun 15, 2019, 12:24 AM

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It's meant for engineering processes which are more rigorous in specification and design phases, since once you've created something you can't come back and fix it easily. You have to wait till the next revision

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In software, speed is everything

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"move fast, break shit"

vernal lily Jun 15, 2019, 12:26 AM

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XD

swift veldt Jun 15, 2019, 12:26 AM

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Somewhat, yes. But that happens on both side of the aisle. It's not an IT or business issue. It's a transversal one, @indigo sleet .
The main issue I see in banking is how the process is handled budget wise. Some projects are started and charted based on budget availability at time x, only to then involve the IT side. A lot of things waterfall from there in many wrong ways. The second main issue I see is that a lot of project in banking are regulatory-pressure-based. A lot of projects exist simply because the regulator (e.g. fed, ecb, bcbs, amf, etc.) has brought the barbed-wired whip or is waiting at the corner.

#

This is a nefarious issue for the whole industry (mostly why I'm most likely exiting it by end of next year).

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:26 AM

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I getcha

vernal lily Jun 15, 2019, 12:26 AM

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a huge % of all banks' costs are regulator compliance yes

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:27 AM

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I do believe that we can do project management in a way that keeps everyone happy

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But it's hard to have an entire team that understands that goal

vernal lily Jun 15, 2019, 12:27 AM

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Google has a cool thing
they said
the largest team size should be a team that can be fed by at most two pizzas

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:28 AM

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Well I can eat a whole pizza

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Checkmate, atheists

vernal lily Jun 15, 2019, 12:28 AM

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lmao

vapid jay Jun 15, 2019, 12:28 AM

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who said that..lol.. I wonder if the teams are actually that small

main thicket Jun 15, 2019, 12:28 AM

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Google should consist of just a bunch of @indigo sleets pair programming together

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:28 AM

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Haha

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We'd never get anything done

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:29 AM

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I think I’ll add one last contentious point — agile and other systems tend to just be part of a larger archaic system of master-slave relationship of businessmen and analysts to software engineers. The way of an ideal company I would see being having software engineers fill the role of both customer requirement gauging and development iteration. What that means is hiring socially adjusted, communicative SWEs... but in my experience, SWEs tend to be on average not less capable of this than the other side of the aisle. Of course, this means probably means needing to be more selective about your devs, or requiring actual analytical/quantitative skills from your businessmen, which means higher pay for devs —but my untested hypothesis is that 3ish of these sorts of devs can replace every 8 businessmen in a generic medium sized business.

vernal lily Jun 15, 2019, 12:29 AM

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wait it was amazon not google https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/apr/24/the-two-pizza-rule-and-the-secret-of-amazons-success

the Guardian

The two-pizza rule and the secret of Amazon's success

Jeff Bezos’s firm is good at selling things to shoppers, but that is the tip of its commercial iceberg

swift veldt Jun 15, 2019, 12:29 AM

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But it's hard to have an entire team that understands that goal
Very interesting to mention because it's often inbuilt in banks' structure. The division of labour is sometimes engineered so ~~not many~~ people gather a vertical and/or horizontal knowledge of processes, etc. as it is how your build a risk of rogue elements, as happened with SocGen in France in 2008.

vapid jay Jun 15, 2019, 12:29 AM

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you would finish the pizza

vernal lily Jun 15, 2019, 12:29 AM

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socially adjusted, communicative SWEsthese don't exist LMAO

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:29 AM

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Thanks for continuing the stereotype, but try again

vapid jay Jun 15, 2019, 12:29 AM

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the SWE's to my left.. very quiet.. barely get up off their seats.. very productive but don't engage with each other or work together though they're on the same team

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:30 AM

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Tons of very capable SWEs who can do both

vapid jay Jun 15, 2019, 12:30 AM

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the SWE's who sit behind me however.. very annoying.. always talking.. barely get anything done

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:30 AM

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It’s a subset for sure

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But hire that subset

vapid jay Jun 15, 2019, 12:30 AM

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yes.. dammit..that was what I was getting at XD

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you didn't let me finish..

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(closure())

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:30 AM

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Instead of a bunch of awkward SWEs and unintelligent businessmen, hire one SWE like this

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:30 AM

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I'm a quiet developer if I'm in an office, I keep to myself and use the tickets and IMs

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But none of the jobs I've worked have liked that

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Like no, I don't want to go to the pub with my team every Friday

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I don't even drink

vernal lily Jun 15, 2019, 12:32 AM

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social SWEs are a rare creature
hire them if you find them

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👍

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:32 AM

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If it became a requirement in industry (and was attached to a much higher pay, say 40% over market), you’d start seeing the population increase of people who could do this by virtue of tailoring their skills to where the money is

vapid jay Jun 15, 2019, 12:32 AM

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we have like..a team lunch once every month or two months..

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at the office

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team dinner like once a month..

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:32 AM

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More than hire them: hire them for a role that eliminates at least a headcount of 2+

vernal lily Jun 15, 2019, 12:32 AM

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how would you test social skills during the hiring process though

swift veldt Jun 15, 2019, 12:32 AM

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I don't want to go to the pub with my team every Friday
I'm the type of person who's always down for a pint. People don't judge the person who don't always come, but the one that never does.

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:32 AM

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The same way business interviews do

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Some bs questions with elementary school math, and you judge them on the firmness of their handshake. Welcome to McKinsey!

vernal lily Jun 15, 2019, 12:33 AM

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XD

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:33 AM

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People should judge my development work by, well, its quality

vapid jay Jun 15, 2019, 12:33 AM

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they evaluate that.. sometimes.. it's not a hard requirement over technical skills..and that's ok

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yeah ^ what he said

swift veldt Jun 15, 2019, 12:33 AM

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The idea is that, work is basically being crammed in a cage for 8-10h with other people, might as well enjoy the grind with interesting talking heads.

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:33 AM

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Not whether I wanna watch a group of people piss their money away

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For context: Ireland

vernal lily Jun 15, 2019, 12:34 AM

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I read before about studies that found
being sociable at work can get you a promotion easier than actually doing good technical work

vapid jay Jun 15, 2019, 12:34 AM

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but... in recent times, some large companies have been caught out gauging people by their political views... even checking their cough certain online video platform viewing history and subscriptions..

swift veldt Jun 15, 2019, 12:35 AM

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True. But that's also culturally based. From where I come from, France, work is viewed as another channel for socialization. You make money there, but it's hard not to try finding people to enjoy some time with. This is due to the fact, I believe, that we have an insane job security in France.

vapid jay Jun 15, 2019, 12:35 AM

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Sooo true:< sucking up to seniors to get a promotion.. so common

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:35 AM

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Being sociable at work gets stuff done. You build relationships and convince people to do high impact work that benefits your objective. You can potentially get more work done that way than just sitting in a corner writing some business logic someone else could write faster

#

Promotions tend to mean less time coding anyways, and more of a leadership role

#

If you can get other people to do the right work... you’re a leader, right?

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So you should be promoted as one

swift veldt Jun 15, 2019, 12:36 AM

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That's true ribs until you hit the management level. You end up finding that often, you gotta bully people into doing stuff. Because there will be stalling, nagging, etc. It's depressing at time.

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:36 AM

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I'm the kind of person that doesn't know how to answer the "where do you see yourself in x years" question

grizzled sundial Jun 15, 2019, 12:36 AM

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off_topeek

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:36 AM

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Writing a huge volume of code is meaningless if you don’t have external insight and strings to pull and vouch for your work

swift veldt Jun 15, 2019, 12:36 AM

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And you shouldn't really be able to understand that. It's very hard to project oneself two, even one, year(s) forward.

#

at least when you're in your twenties, I believe.

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:37 AM

#

@swift veldt pushing back against the influence of others at work is also okay, honestly

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:37 AM

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Maybe part of it is the dyspraxia, I dunno

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:37 AM

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Everyone has different objectives and they won’t always align with yours

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:37 AM

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I just can't handle office dev

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:37 AM

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The strongest project wins

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:37 AM

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Ribs here is talking about objectives

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What do you do if you don't have an objective though?

swift veldt Jun 15, 2019, 12:38 AM

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@gloomy lagoon I'm sure. The goal is not to be a doormat. But there is pushing against the influence of other and actually being incompetent at your work. (I mostly work facing other managers--of teams).

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:38 AM

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You stop working until you have one?

#

Well companies who don’t fire incompetence usually die or stagnate very quickly

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:38 AM

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Gotta eat though

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:38 AM

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Though high firing rates are also bad

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Well you’ll certainly come up with an objective if you’re starving then right?

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:39 AM

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Probably not, no, lol

vapid jay Jun 15, 2019, 12:39 AM

#

linkedin actually lets you see average tenure at companies now..

rare sand Jun 15, 2019, 12:39 AM

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these all sound like unhealthy businesses to me. I've heard a lot about this whole fighting for validation and making networks that you can leverage to get your code seen. I find it really dystopian to read about.

swift veldt Jun 15, 2019, 12:39 AM

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Today for example, I found out that a manager most likely didn't do their regulatory-enforced exercise. I'll know more on monday. But still, that stuff, people stalling and hiding the dust under the rugs, is how you get the whip in Finance x).

rare sand Jun 15, 2019, 12:40 AM

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if I ever end up working a place where that kind of culture is prevalent, I will quit.

grizzled sundial Jun 15, 2019, 12:40 AM

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@rare sand agreed. If you’re a good developer, you can find companies where you fit well

#

I have, and did 😄

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:40 AM

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shroph I mean alright but that’s where the smart people and money is

#

Imo

rare sand Jun 15, 2019, 12:40 AM

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I earn plenty, and I don't have to break my back.

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or my psychological well being

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:41 AM

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I don’t break my back either, but I can make a strong case for my work across many channels

#

Some people can make even stronger ones and they win

rare sand Jun 15, 2019, 12:41 AM

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it sounds extremely taxing to me.

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:41 AM

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shroph

#

I mean it’s within a 40 hour workweek

#

It’s called work for a reason

#

Not being a smartass I just think there’s good reason to not fall into the path of least resistance

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:42 AM

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Psychological health is important and it was the biggest thing I struggled with at fexco

vernal lily Jun 15, 2019, 12:42 AM

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It’s called work for a reasonis what people say when they don't like their job lol

vapid jay Jun 15, 2019, 12:42 AM

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:< but it is the case with large companies though lemon.. navigating that has become a part of working there

#

lmao

rare sand Jun 15, 2019, 12:42 AM

#

a job that you love isn't the same as falling into the path of least resistance.

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:42 AM

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Small companies just as much unless we are talking a team of 10 or less

vernal lily Jun 15, 2019, 12:43 AM

#

some of the worst stories about bad managers I heard
were from small companies, not large

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:43 AM

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10ish seems to be the maximum “small-medium project” effective headcount to me

rare sand Jun 15, 2019, 12:44 AM

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well, hey, glad you're happy with it. just saying it sounds broken to me.

swift veldt Jun 15, 2019, 12:44 AM

#

The first thing you get taught in Philosophy in France (caricaturing a bit) is that work in Latin is Tripalium, or torture. finger_gun_dank

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:45 AM

#

Reminds me of Clojure..

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:45 AM

#

I thought the first thing you get taught in philosophy is that Plato was the best flute player?

vapid jay Jun 15, 2019, 12:45 AM

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never knew he played the flute..

swift veldt Jun 15, 2019, 12:46 AM

#

He did play Socrates'. sweatcat

grizzled sundial Jun 15, 2019, 12:46 AM

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My work speaks for itself 😎

vernal lily Jun 15, 2019, 12:46 AM

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code can't speak for itself

swift veldt Jun 15, 2019, 12:47 AM

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Anyhow, to focus back to programming topic. I'm tired of the finance grind and am working to exit the industry (or at least move to the fintech!regtech side). Gave myself 1 year to work my ass off to reach a good level that would allow such career fork.

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:47 AM

#

Well it can on some abandoned git branch that was forgotten in 2014 when the quiet developer failed to argue to merge it when it made sense

vernal lily Jun 15, 2019, 12:47 AM

#

@swift veldt do you program at work at the moment?

gloomy lagoon Jun 15, 2019, 12:47 AM

#

dabward

vapid jay Jun 15, 2019, 12:48 AM

#

one of my friends is an algorithmic quant.. or something at a large bank..

indigo sleet Jun 15, 2019, 12:48 AM

#

I'm going to bed, but some of you would probably enjoy this essay https://www.stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks

Programming Sucks

vapid jay Jun 15, 2019, 12:48 AM

#

she worked in banking before.. after our masters in DS she went into this new role.. maybe it's worth a look?

swift veldt Jun 15, 2019, 12:48 AM

#

Not really--sadly. I do some python scripting sometimes. I work with (and deal with) people who do.
I am building my portfolio though, slowly.

vernal lily Jun 15, 2019, 12:49 AM

#

algorithmic quant is an amazing job
but yeah you need postgrad often

swift veldt Jun 15, 2019, 12:49 AM

#

A lot of my free time is allocated to learning stuff.

vernal lily Jun 15, 2019, 12:49 AM

#

I mean if you work as a manager now
maybe you could apply to management roles in fintech
rather than dev roles

swift veldt Jun 15, 2019, 12:49 AM

#

I already have two master's degrees. None are in CS, though. That's why I'm working my way through my free time.