career-advice

[craggy wave]

That's enough.

[vapid jay]

oh

hey i tyed that before you saaid that

my ping

smite

@craggy wave im new to python what should i make

[craggy wave]

This is way off-topic for this channel.

[vapid jay]

i want a career in python so i need to learn basics ANY GOOD BEGINNER PROGS I SHOULD MAKE

[indigo sleet]

It's just wilful ignorance at this point really, lol

[vapid jay]

ig no ra nc e

[craggy wave]

!warn 416771557642469396 Please stop trolling in on-topic channels. Alos, we have enough channels to ask these questions and this is not one of them. The next unrelated message to this channel will result in a mute.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: warned @vapid jay (Please stop trolling in on-topic channels. Alos, we have enough channels to ask these questions and this is not one of them. The next unrelated message to this channel will result in a mute.).

[vapid jay]

im not trolling

jhdfkladw's;wdepfr[oegijrjwek;ml/a

[craggy wave]

!tempmute 416771557642469396 1d Please stop trolling in on-topic channels

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: muted @vapid jay until Sun, 10 Feb 2019 11:04:13 GMT (Please stop trolling in on-topic channels).

[craggy wave]

Guess it should have just said "Stop trolling", because that doesn't belong in any channel

[indigo sleet]

Pft, it's fine

I don't think this is the first time anyway

[dense marten]

@indigo sleet Udemy courses are not cheaper for some people like me .. 😩

[indigo sleet]

most courses are 95% off all the time

[dense marten]

That too would cost above 800 rupees in India

[indigo sleet]

that's less than €10

I'm not sure how your economy works though

[dense marten]

Indian people are so poor .. 😶

[drowsy mason]

i know that feel, i'm from SE asia

sometimes paying for things online is difficult without an international cc or debit card

[indigo sleet]

I empathise, but I'm not sure whose fault it is :P

Not udemy's anyway

Definitely not the people making the courses

[drowsy mason]

my intro to python was 6.00SC on MIT opencourseware

[indigo sleet]

What's SC?

[drowsy mason]

ah, i'm not sure. it's part of the course code, but it left a very lasting impression on my mind.

https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-00sc-introduction-to-computer-science-and-programming-spring-2011/

[indigo sleet]

Oh, I thought it was a currency

[drowsy mason]

😄

[dense marten]

India sucks 😶

[umbral valley]

i don't know if its fair to say they're "85% off", $10 is just their price. i've never seen a course not on sale xd

[vapid jay]

Which is the best major for data science?

[limber rampart]

I'm not completely sure what major means but universities are starting to offer data science courses now

[vapid jay]

Where are you from?

[limber rampart]

I've lived in the UK for some time now

My uni offers an MSc Data Science course for people with a suitable background (i.e. something mathematical / compsci ish)

[vapid jay]

for how much?

[limber rampart]

I'm guessing it'll be the typical £9000 a year

There is some funding available

It's very individual

It's also possible to get on a fully funded (and even salaried) PhD course that entails MSc

Or get sponsored by a company

[marsh karma]

I think this 100% promo may work yet https://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/the-complete-python-3-course-beginner-to-advanced-free-udemy-3166360?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=position_3_button&utm_campaign=19-01-2019&fbclid=IwAR1GjE9_XtJLMo_fiAkp5ZmNklAiS_St4xY4U9J4Fb4yNrL9tvcyAca447M

@dense marten

[umbral valley]

@vapid jay traditionally a data science degree is a Masters program

[nocturne sluice]

@marsh karma it works thank you 🤤

[vapid jay]

Thanks @marsh karma

[marsh karma]

@vapid jay @nocturne sluice np

[lethal prairie]

ty for the link

[vapid jay]

Is this course actually good?

[marsh karma]

I don't know but my brother told me that it may be because it covers nice things. For example, at the end there is a Django basic stuff and also other features. It may be good for beginners so you would know in which direction you would like to improve. I am going to start this course soon. So for beginners good, then you choose if you wanna do web dev or ml or sth else

I think that >6 sections are interesting introductions to different fields and may direct sb what sb would prefer doing

[limber zenith]

Anyone know how actually valid the IBM Data Science Professional Certificate is? (Even just as a crappy GPA drowning cert)?

(sorry for the posting and deleting all over the place, not sure where this should go)

Also recommendations for a budding data scientist for certs/tutorials would also be appreciated

[obsidian acorn]

This is definitely the right place to post this

however, I have not heard of this program until now. Are you considering going to grad school?

[umbral valley]

Is it still recommended that you don’t get your masters & PhD from the same school you got your BS? Or does that matter now?

[vapid jay]

not unless it's a highly ranked school

@limber zenith the IBM tutorials are quite good.. but you don't need to pay for them.. I believe IBM has it's own website where you can take individual units for free

the certificates are useless.. your projects will give you more leverage

[limber zenith]

@obsidian acorn, I'm trying right now to get GA Tech's online masters (I got a CS bachelors from a small engineering school in Colorado)

I'm just having problems finding a project that I "like" ya know?

[obsidian acorn]

yeah, though having a degree can certainly differentiate you from other applicants, and can help get you foot in the door that other applications without a degree might not be able to get, in the end, it's your knowledge and experience that will determine whether you get the position on not

have you been able to find a position yet?

@limber zenith or are you working on that as well?

[limber zenith]

I have a fairly dead end coding job right now

Plug-n-play java coding position...

Protip, selenium webdrivers SUCK

[obsidian acorn]

lol,

is it a full time position?

[limber zenith]

Yeah, it pays well, but is monotonous as hell

(hence why I wanna do other things)

[obsidian acorn]

that makes sense. I would suggest find projects on github that you can contribute too. very often, employers are looking for people who contribute to opensource project, because that show that you know how to learn other projects, as well as working with gitversions

[limber zenith]

I know it's a pretty vague question, but any good starting points for that?

[obsidian acorn]

well, have you don't much contributions yet?

[limber zenith]

Haven't done any. College was a bitch and focused more on algorithms and problem solving then the true intricacies of coding

(I was a pretty shit college student too)

[obsidian acorn]

got ya, in that case, a great start would be here, on our page. We have seasonal events on our github page that we have set up for starters, and to give people a feel of contributing

https://github.com/python-discord/seasonalbot/issues

also check out #542272993192050698

that's were you will find chat about contributing to the community.

you can ask questions along the way, in any capacity, and we will help you. There are instructions on the github page on how to get started as well

Sorry, this is a lot. But this would be a good starting point.

[limber zenith]

Nah man, I screwed around so I'm paying the price now. The degree got my foot in the first door, my job to open the next few

[obsidian acorn]

exactly

but you got your foot in the door, now, just make the best of it

[rain sinew]

Hey guys, I've been thinking about getting into free-lance programming, but I'm not sure if I'm good enough to ask people to pay me to code for them yet. Does anybody know how I could see if I'm ready, or if there's some kind of list of requirements I should try to meet before I put myself on the market?

[vapid jay]

ugh.. I feel like crap v.v I'm so good at image processing but get stuck doing nlp which I have to reinforce every day

someone make me feel better v.v

[obsidian acorn]

you are amazing @vapid jay, but wrong place to find people to make you feel better about yourself though. (jk)

but @rain sinew, your name already say that you are marvelous, so all you have to do now is to prove it to yourself and others. aka, by producing work that one might consider worth paying for. For example, work on some projects on github. contribute to some projects, that are similar to what you want to freelance on. As you are getting comfortable with that, as you gauge yourself, when you can do something that use to take you 5 hrs in 2, then, you ll know you are ready

[rain sinew]

Thanks Spee-dy, I'll take your advice!

[mystic anvil]

Hi, how can i know when i know enough to start working with python?

there are so many things to learn and practice and build but when can i know that im ready.

[mild zenith]

@mystic anvil Start working in what capacity? And my indicator was when I was handed (or started) a project and able to research all the bits and bobs I needed to create it

[mystic anvil]

What do you mean by cpacity?

[native minnow]

I'm applying for an intern at a big company. What sort of stuff should I put on my programming resume?

[mystic anvil]

And how much time it took you?

[mild zenith]

By capacity I mean what are you wanting to do? Look for a job in the industry, work on personal projects, etc. And it took me around a year and a half to be confident enough in my coding to really want to put forth effort in open-source projects and the like

[karmic bramble]

I don't think there's any border between "I'm learning" and "I'm ready to start a project"

You will always be learning more stuff, as you take on more advanced projects and need more special things

Therefore in my opinion, if you know the basic syntax and data types a language has to offer, you are ready to start a basic project in it.

And then you learn as you go

[mystic anvil]

Do you think i need more than python?

[vivid dock]

Depends what you want to do

Knowing js/html/css helps if you want to do front end for instance

[karmic bramble]

(web frontend at least)

[vivid dock]

Fair

[umbral valley]

@limber zenith how much is the masters from GA Tech? I almost went there for my bachelors but turned it down. Thinking I may go online for masters

[runic lance]

I'm taking in resumes for a data scientist.

I don't know what the requirements are yet but ours is leaving and this project cannot move forward without an NLP guy.

It'll most likely be in Seattle but we can pay for relocation fees.

[nocturne sluice]

Anyone here heard of Summitworks Technologies?

[limber zenith]

@umbral valley, it's looking like 550 a credit over 30 credits

So not too terrible

[umbral valley]

thats not awful

thats non resident?

[limber zenith]

Residency doesn't matter for online I thought

[umbral valley]

I looked at the fee sheet and it does

I think because GA has subsidies or something for students

granted, it's not a ton, but its a couple k over the course of the degree

[plush summit]

Hey guys?

Would it be recommended to pick up coding as a senior subject for high school?

I don't even know if I enjoy coding enough for it to be a potential career

_>

[indigo sleet]

It's a good idea if it's something you're interested in

I wouldn't recommend working with code if you didn't like coding though

[plush summit]

I don't dislike it

But I don't know if I enjoy it enough to consider doing it as a future career

[indigo sleet]

I mean, you don't have to study it for it to be your career path

You could study it just because you like it

Specialising your career comes with college and after

[plush summit]

also hesitant to pick it up in senior years because it's usually a guy dominant subject

[vapid jay]

there is no such thing

[plush summit]

So I'm gonna be lonely for a solid 2 years

[indigo sleet]

I take it you're a girl? Don't let that put you off

There's a big push for women in that industry actually

[plush summit]

but it's hard to enjoy a subject if you can't talk to people that much

[vapid jay]

not that I agree with anyone being pushed into any industry.. but you should try it...

[indigo sleet]

Well hey, you're talking to a male right now

[vapid jay]

and Im a robot

watch Tron Legacy.. that's how I got into programming

[plush summit]

also do U just sit on the computer all day?

[indigo sleet]

Not really

[vapid jay]

I do other things too..

[indigo sleet]

Exercise is important

[plush summit]

what else do U do??

in your job

[indigo sleet]

Oh, I'm not a programmer in my job right now

[vapid jay]

I start the day with gym.. then work.. study.. eat.. game..

[plush summit]

ohh

[vapid jay]

mostly study..

[plush summit]

oh

[rare sand]

you guys are entirely missing the point of the question :P

[indigo sleet]

But there is a lot of sitting and meetings, yeah

[plush summit]

uh is there someone that does coding as a career that can tell me if they sit on a laptop all day?

[rare sand]

I do.

[plush summit]

do you?

[rare sand]

and no, I would never use a laptop.

[vapid jay]

they give you big screens

[rare sand]

but yes I spend a great deal of my day on a desktop :P

[plush summit]

or a computer of any sort honestly

[rare sand]

however,

[plush summit]

oh

my eyes ;-;

[vapid jay]

I wear gamer glasses.. no strain at all

[indigo sleet]

It's not that bad

[rare sand]

basically as a dev, there are two modes that you frequently find yourself in

one is called "the zone"

when you're in the zone, hours fly past like minutes

and you are super productive

[vapid jay]

my gf has a business background and even she has to do some programming for her analytics work

[indigo sleet]

Wish I hit that more often lol

[rare sand]

the other is sort of a writers block.

you have no idea what you should be doing. you're trying to figure out how to write what you need to write

when I'm in that second state, I don't tend to sit at my computer.

I walk around

I go work on a whiteboard

[plush summit]

Oh

[rare sand]

talk to colleagues

go for a walk

[indigo sleet]

Yeah, taking a break from your screen is a great way to fix that problem

[rare sand]

and I'm encouraged to work like that

[karmic bramble]

and then there's meetings....

[plush summit]

I think there r 2 subjects at my school that's tech related

It was like software design and development

[vapid jay]

I work in DS, so I'm not as experienced as other people here in programming.. so I come here to ask questions.. study and learn..

[plush summit]

And information processes and technology??

But I don't rlly know what they do

[vapid jay]

I think that's a given in any field related to coding, you're always learning something new, lots of growth.. plenty of fun

[plush summit]

And I ma trying to start thinking about potential career options because I'm pretty lost

[rare sand]

at some dev offices, they'll make available fun stuff like gaming consoles, pool tables, excercise rooms, and so on

[indigo sleet]

The software subject will be more about design and development

[rare sand]

specifically designed for people to go take a minute and perhaps think about the problem they're solving in a pleasant environment

[indigo sleet]

Whereas the other one will be more about how things work

[plush summit]

is it like website designing?

[indigo sleet]

Not necessarily

[plush summit]

oh I just associate it with that

[indigo sleet]

Software design involves a whole host of possible stuff really

[plush summit]

So is it literally designing ?

[indigo sleet]

Thinking about how to lay out your application code, or designing a website or UI

And several things in between

It's hard to say what they'll cover of that

[plush summit]

is information one more logical while the software a little more creative?

because your designing?

[indigo sleet]

Well, that's possible, but I think they're both important subjects

[plush summit]

I might be a little oblivious here

So it's best to do together?

[indigo sleet]

It depends what side of computing you're into

[plush summit]

honestly I might be doing subjects that r all over the place at this rate XD

[indigo sleet]

If you want to go into software development then the development course is probably the important one

The other one would still be useful but maybe not required

[plush summit]

uhh what if I'm not sure

[indigo sleet]

The truth is that you can pick up a lot of things online

And people here are happy to explain things as well

I'm almost entirely self taught, for example

[plush summit]

yeah but Ive looked at some of the subjects and I need to pick 8 (?) Subjects?

and I don't exactly have 8

not even near it

so I thought it might be a good idea to pick up on coding while at school?

ooor that could be a completely horrible idea

[rare sand]

you'll be hard pressed to find someone in this community who will tell you not to learn coding :P

we're very biased

[plush summit]

well it is a coding server XD

[rare sand]

but coding changed my life. I love it to death. I spend every waking minute writing code

[plush summit]

woah

[rare sand]

if you do decide to learn it and if you take a liking to it, then use this community

we're a great help.

[plush summit]

I wish I could have a passion like that >_>

[rare sand]

and you will meet like-minded people.

[plush summit]

I'm scared if I pick it up

Then I don't like it

The more I get into it

[rare sand]

maybe you should give it a try before you choose it as a subject?

[plush summit]

But I would have to stick with it for 2 years

[rare sand]

learn some basic python this weekend or something

[plush summit]

I did try to and it seemed okay

the terms r a bit funky tho

do U have a website that would be good

[rare sand]

we do.

[plush summit]

To learn?

[rare sand]

well, no, but we have a bunch of excellent resources on our website.

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected goodies that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/info/resources

[rare sand]

video tutorials, some interactive courses, even a few games that teach python

or books, if you prefer.

check out something from that list.

[plush summit]

I think a few weeks ago I saw something like code academy?

Or idk how good it is

well I hopefully will give myself time in the holidays and weekends to do something

But assignments r killing me

[indigo sleet]

Lemon is right, you should give it a go and see how you like it

[plush summit]

How far would I have to dive into it

I also have been trying to join the coding club?

but the teacher keeps disappearing everytime I want to join ;-;

@rare sand what do you do at your job?

[indigo sleet]

It's up to you how far you go, if you only want a quick intro then byte of python is passable, but it won't give you the full overview that something else would

[plush summit]

HM well I'll think about coding

[viscid birch]

What are some good entry level jobs for python? Are there many freelance opportunities?

[vapid jay]

Seems like after a certain amount of time coding you'll start working less on actual programming and more on architecture and design on a grander scale @plush summit

[plush summit]

huh?

[vapid jay]

Because your skills on understanding the systems etc is more valuable than creating the code.

[viscid birch]

Is a career in python hard to get if you are self taught?

[vapid jay]

A lot of variables to that one

[plush summit]

oh

so basically people prefer if U understand the code rather than write it?

[vapid jay]

No it is not that

[plush summit]

Could U elaborate I'm a bit uninformed >_>

sorry

[vapid jay]

Once you become more experienced you can design the architecture for projects and you get more jobs involving discussing said architectures with other parts of your company etc

[plush summit]

oh

[vapid jay]

Spending more time in meetings, Helping other people, Discussing what you build and how etc

[plush summit]

more than the actual coding...?

[vapid jay]

Depends

I am entry level and I pretty much only code

2 architects here in my part of the office and other one barely sits on the computer

[indigo sleet]

Doesn't mean they're not working with code

They're probably working with someone else's code though

[vapid jay]

I said they are not programming it

Or I think I did

[orchid shell]

The architects I've in my team (I'm a manager of a software department of 25 devs) dont write production code. They do however write proof of concepts to test a thesis or write example code that is used by devs in the team.

[vapid jay]

What industry is this?

[orchid shell]

To differentiate yourself throughout a software developer career is in most cases understanding what you are doing, why you are doing it and doing "the right thing".

The software of our company is used on industrial machines, in this case PLC and C#. Roles and responsibilities however aren't bound by language 🙃

I do python myself, for the funz and sometimes building stuff that actually help people. That's the main reason for me being here.

But I also know a few things in starting a career as dev and developing your career.

[limber zenith]

On a scale of 1 to invading russia in the winter, how bad of an idea would it be to become a patent engineer?

[vapid jay]

what's a patent engineer

[sturdy hearth]

Hello

Is anybody here?

[vapid jay]

no..this is Patrick

[sturdy hearth]

Has anyone here read Mark Lutz's Programming Python: Powerful Object-Oriented Programming?

The book was published in 2011, so I am wondering whether it is still relevant

[tiny blaze]

probably mostly so

its probably python2 though so some things will have changed

[sturdy hearth]

This is the description: "Quick Python tour: Build a simple demo that includes data representation, object-oriented programming, object persistence, GUIs, and website basics
System programming: Explore system interface tools and techniques for command-line scripting, processing files and folders, running programs in parallel, and more
GUI programming: Learn to use Python’s tkinter widget library
Internet programming: Access client-side network protocols and email tools, use CGI scripts, and learn website implementation techniques
More ways to apply Python: Implement data structures, parse text-based information, interface with databases, and extend and embed Python"

Would some of these be severely outdated?

[tiny blaze]

probably a little bit, i believe our !resources include some oudated books but it isnt much of a big deal

[sturdy hearth]

Thanks @tiny blaze

[tiny blaze]

np

[umbral valley]

@limber zenith from what I understand law is a really cutthroat field, and if you don’t go to a top 5 school the job hunt gets much harder unless you want the hassle of running your own practice.

[midnight merlin]

Hey i'm wondering , how can i start a career as a programmer, i really like python but i have no degree. does it even matter ? i dno

[warm verge]

it shouldnt @midnight merlin . I study as an interaction designer in sweden; if you got the brains you will get hired

especially since many of the graduates up here are at a civil engineering level (overqualified) and thus will not expect lower pay 😄

It depends on the region I guess?

[midnight merlin]

i'm in england

[limber zenith]

@umbral valley, the patent engineer job doesn't require a law degree from what I've gathered. They literally need someone to tell a lawyer if the invention is shit or not

[nocturne sluice]

Is a coding bootcamp worth?

[umbral valley]

Oh. You know what

I saw patent and auto completed it mentally to patent lawyer

[midnight merlin]

possibly ? things like udemy seem like a scam and other seem like bootcamps but ...the legitimacy is questionable

not saying udemy is a bootcamp mind

[nocturne sluice]

udemy is amazing ahah

imho

[umbral valley]

@nocturne sluice they can be but they lack the oversight and accreditation of a traditional college. This means that from boot camp to boot camp the education can vary wildly as can the quality with no established 3rd party to say “this is okay. This isn’t because of x y and z”

[warm verge]

I used udemy on some design courses which I gained quite immence knowledge in

For instance Blender course

[limber zenith]

I'm realizing programming is a very heavy catch-22 field

[warm verge]

I would mostly say it depends on the teacher I guess

[nocturne sluice]

Yeah, the machine learning and data sciences course are amazing

as well as the full stack courses with django

[limber zenith]

Especially wanting "Enterprise experience"

[nocturne sluice]

IBM is a good starting point

[warm verge]

@limber zenith yeah,

[nocturne sluice]

they look for entrys with only at least a GED all the time

[warm verge]

GED?

[nocturne sluice]

yeah

[warm verge]

whats that

[nocturne sluice]

General Education Degree

[warm verge]

Aha

[nocturne sluice]

idk lmaoo

i think that is what it is

[warm verge]

well general education is almost a must wouldnt you agree?

Like high school at the very least

come on

[limber zenith]

Graduate Equivalent Degree or something like that

[nocturne sluice]

ahah yeah, it is what you take if you dont finish high school

[limber zenith]

AKA alternative to high school graduation

[umbral valley]

It’s high school diploma for those who didn’t graduate through traditional means

[nocturne sluice]

^

[warm verge]

Well etrher way that seems like a fair requirement

[nocturne sluice]

yeah

[warm verge]

high school preps you for math and other stuff you will need

[midnight merlin]

what makes you say programming is a catch 22 ?

[warm verge]

now unless you have proven experience working on projects

[nocturne sluice]

they always look for people who have personal or some college for jobs and that gets a nice foot in the door for some people

ex me lol

[limber zenith]

Fuck man, I just hate my job and I want to switch, but I haven't gotten good experience and I need something nto move me out of this rut

[nocturne sluice]

im currently working on a BS in CS

[limber zenith]

I make too much for what I do...

[warm verge]

Its not a catch 22 if you get to know people and present yourself as a composed and assertive person

[midnight merlin]

lol and you cvomplaing about making too much ~?

and what don't you enjoy

[warm verge]

I got some work on frontend juyst tnx to having connections and a working brain

and thats what gets you xp anr rep. start small

[limber zenith]

You know, crying is the same if you're crying on a Mercedes or on a bike >.>

[warm verge]

work youru way out

[umbral valley]

I know that feel Tie. Been there before

[warm verge]

I would more gladly cry in a mercedes tho

😄

[midnight merlin]

but why the crying ?

[limber zenith]

I'm basically a 9-5 selenium webdriver Java programmer. Very very plug and play

Very very repetitive

[warm verge]

havent cried in over 10 years. Completly numb. but thats point of a nother discussion

[umbral valley]

Oof. That’s the bad selenium too

[limber zenith]

I mean, it pays the bills at 64k a year

But Denver housing prices are gonna give me an aneurysm

[umbral valley]

Assessment is pretty chill

[warm verge]

64k is quite good man

whats the morgage for you?

[midnight merlin]

wow....i make like 14k its a job but just somthing on minimum wage and mudane

[limber zenith]

None yet @warm verge, but anything that's not shit starts at like 450k for a house

[warm verge]

now thats stockholm level prices

didnt know its that expencive over the pond

but I guess thats mureca for you

[limber zenith]

Tech hubs suck dick

At least it's not Silicone Valley

[warm verge]

Yeah, I can only imagine that the prices are inflated

why not live in a more modest home in a suburb?

[limber zenith]

Also in a long term relationship with a Civil Engineer so that will be nice

[warm verge]

take a car ride or buss/train

[limber zenith]

That is the suburb prices...

[warm verge]

you are joking

[limber zenith]

I also don't wanna get shot

[warm verge]

oh yeah, you have it crazy over there

[limber zenith]

Not really, bad parts of Denver are really bad though

[umbral valley]

I clear 70k$ in an area where houses are ~$200k - there are much cheaper tech hubs

[warm verge]

My dream has always been to go to america

and visit a walmart

to see al the fatsos use the wheelcar hahahha

[limber zenith]

Yeah, but a tech hub that supports a healthy environment for civil engineering is hard to come by @umbral valley

Also 2 player mode makes shitty job feel less shitty

But yeah, I'm learning python so I can get out of my shitty job

So thanks guys for giving me some sort of direction as to how to proceed

[warm verge]

if you know java you will swallow python 😛

[limber zenith]

Well, meanwhile I'm tarding really hard at my first contribution to the discord bot

Mostly because my good programming experience got flushed when I because a webdriver plug and play coder

I just need to not be rusty and remember good fundamentals again

[warm verge]

There is a great python book I would like to recommend

then I remembered you probably dont know swedish 😄

[limber zenith]

Hehe, yeah no

[warm verge]

I got it doing a python course 3 years ago, didnt open it

now when I wanted to get back in the game I opened up a page and it was like "holy cow this book is actually great!"

😄

[limber zenith]

Nah, I know generally what I'm doing (I have a BS in CS) and I just need to get back into the swing of things doing actual computer science

[warm verge]

haha feel ya

[limber zenith]

Can we make Code Monkey the official anthem of the discord?

[warm verge]

we need a bob ross smily

helped me handle anxiety! I can only imagine he helped many of us

Usually just turn him on when I want to do some coding haha!

[indigo sleet]

Not on this server though

This is getting off topic though :P

[warm verge]

mm yeah.

muzzled

[limber zenith]

Back on topic, are there any real certifications for Python or Data Analysis that I should get?

[vapid jay]

Just a question could an under 18 boy get a job that actually pays a bit eventhough he isnt that good with python.

[molten spoke]

If you improve your skills you may be able to start taking some freelancing work from sites online

[umbral valley]

@limber zenith certificates are kinda weird in that some employers like them, others see them as 0 value

[limber zenith]

It's better and gives me a goal to work towards rather than aimlessly trying to figure shit out

Plus my currently job pays for passing tests

[vapid jay]

What is the best way to develop my skills.

[umbral valley]

Yeah I mean multiple certificates aren’t really a bad thing with the knowledge gained. Just that it depends on the employer if they’re actually useful

[austere igloo]

Certificates definitely feel good and give you some kind of goal, but it’s been a very, very long time since I’ve encountered a company that cared or asked about my certs in an interview

[vapid jay]

When you go on interviews. Is it online or in real life

Or does it depend

[limber zenith]

@vapid jay, get the basics of CS down, and then do work on open source IMO

Nothing gets you good faster than having your code shredded

[vapid jay]

Wat ks CS

[austere igloo]

Mostly first few interviews are over the phone, but if can vary

[limber zenith]

Computer Science

[stoic loom]

C sharp

[austere igloo]

I got rejected from a job interview this week because I fumbled a question about type hinting (hadn’t encountered it yet). I’m all studied up on it now, but feelsbadman.gif

[limber zenith]

Yeah man, I missed a job because I forgot what a linked list was...

[vapid jay]

And wat is open sorce IMO

[limber zenith]

4 hours of interviews....

@vapid jay, open source is a bunch of collaborative projects.

[vapid jay]

Oh ok

[austere igloo]

Interview gatekeeping /tech trivia is never not rough. In the real world on the job, I’d just study up and practice anything I haven’t used yet. Couple hours max.

[limber zenith]

That's what I do...

My degree was heavily based in algorithms and math. Not a huge amount of pure programming

(that and i sucked at school)

Problem is, the school is known for being a college of immaculate engineering

So being a shit student still means that I gotta work back up and get there

[umbral valley]

@limber zenith just as an aside - CS degrees are almost always theory and low level. It’s very little pure programming, that’s the main difference in CS and other programming degrees

[austere igloo]

My issue seems to be that while I have lots of industry experience, most of it was in systems/ops and so nobody wants to trust that I can code (been coding since before there was Internet)

And I probably just suck at marketing myself and not being a nervous wreck in interviews

[limber zenith]

I know the feeling

I can talk myself up and I'm quick on the pickup for learning (it helps that I'm extroverted and know how to google + ask the right questions), but damn do I choke up hard in technicals.

[austere igloo]

Haha yeah, there’s something about interviews that makes me completely go blank, even about stuff I have years of experience in

I’ve conducted interviews too, and have seen it happen

[vapid jay]

thats my school tiebroken

very theory base

but might be because my degree is cs

which covers everything

[radiant sigil]

are most people here

students?

or people who are switching intto tech?

[rare sand]

students make up a lot of our users

the staff has some students, but also quite a few adults who are already employed, sometimes in python-related jobs.

[orchid shell]

IMHO what I miss in todays CS is software design skills. Most classes are about fancy stuff like IoT, JS frameworks, etc. But no classes on decent enterprise applications anymore. Sure, UML isn't that common used anymore with all the we-use-scrum-so-we-don't-need-designs hype.. But it doesn't mean that the concepts are not important anymore

[slim island]

UML was kinda never useful as a design tool

it found a second life as a post-build documentation tool

[orchid shell]

isn't that still design? 😉

usage is however changed from documenting it for the long run instead of doing it before you code.

somewhere on my bookshelf I've the book " Agile Modeling" which shows pretty much how to use UML diagrams in a sketch form in an early stage. As soon as an implementation is completed you'd formalize what you've built in something that sticks around for a long time

[solid tusk]

Got first out of n rejections for a summer job today

[limber zenith]

@solid tusk, don't get down bro, it happens to the best of us

Just gotta get back up and keep fighting

[solid tusk]

Thanks man

The interview went so well and everything.. I just made the mistake of getting my hopes up too early 😄

The company was great as well so that adds to the feels

But you're right, gotta just improve myself

[limber zenith]

Yeah... I said this earlier, but I went through about 5 hours of interviews just to botch the whole thing on the last interview which was technical number 3 because I forgot that linked lists exist

Got everything else, even the first half of that round where I got asked a database question, I nailed it

[austere igloo]

That’s crazy, I doubt they even use linked lists, ever

[limber zenith]

It was mostly to test my knowledge... Also what else are you supposed to use to make a song queue?

I also fumbled it really hard and then proceeded to sorta "lose my groove"

Started hard fumbling answers and generally cracked under the pressure

[austere igloo]

When I interviewed at Microsoft in the early 2000's they were still doing entirely psychological interviews with almost no technical questions. Like every interview was just designed to crack you

[limber zenith]

Yeah, guess what put me on full tilt and cracked me >.>

[marsh karma]

So I was told that two tasks which I had to do were the ones with the most of points. Speed dating interview in following Monday. Has got anyone any tips for first internship interview?

[austere igloo]

"How do you fit a square manhole cover in a round hole?"

[simple plover]

Has anyone worked with NI before with python?

[solid tusk]

@austere igloo border-radius: 50%;

[hollow mantle]

just put it in perpendicular. Never mentioned orientation

[solid tusk]

But I guess that if you don't get the job, the place was not meant for you

For example, in my case they probably wouldn't have had enough work for me to keep me occupied.

[cinder belfry]

the standard answer to the manhole cover question is BS anyway

like, it's clever, but... manhole covers are heavy, and getting a square one with even a slight bevel to fall in requires moving it in a very specific way and lifting its center of gravity quite high off the ground

you're not gonna do that by accident

[not my analysis, i got that from an article pointing out what BS it is]

here it is https://sellsbrothers.com/12395

[humble elm]

hahaha

thats an awesome read!

[true sequoia]

has anyone here moved from a Technical Account Manager/ Solutions Engineer to developer role

[vapid jay]

idk the manhole cover question would be nice just as a one question just to see how the person thinks

how he analyzes things in his head

or she...

[tiny blaze]

lol im not creative id just say you cant

[vapid jay]

@simple plover I am currently

@tiny blaze can't what?

[tiny blaze]

the manhole question from earlier

@vapid jay

[vapid jay]

Oh they asked it that way

I thought the question is originally why are manhole covers round

[tiny blaze]

yea

[vapid jay]

I mean yeah if the diameter is the same or bigger on the square one it is impossible

[tiny blaze]

thats what i envisoned in my head

im not a thinker i like something visual

i usually dont get something until i can see a demo of it either

[simple plover]

Have you worked with cRio?

I'm kind of struggling with trying to separate the sensor data from the main file and having the main file pull the temperature sensor data.

If maybe either you can look at my code or maybe give me some concepts I might want to look into that would be amazing, cause I'm kind of stuck.

[vapid jay]

I have not

[simple plover]

Okay, that's fine.

It's an issue very unique to how the sensor works in NI and so it's hard to find good resources to describe the issue, but I'll keep working on it.

[vapid jay]

I mean I can look at the code but that I can't promise anything

[simple plover]

That would be great.

Where do you want me to post it?

[umbral valley]

@marsh karma most of the time internships aren’t going to be super technical. They’re expecting to have to teach you a lot. Generally it’s just going to be about making sure you’re a team player and is someone they want around their group

[marsh karma]

@umbral valley ah great, thanks

[umbral valley]

There are some exceptions to that of course. I’ve heard of them being quite technical, but it’s kinda rare

I’d expect more questions to gauge familiarity- like have you used X, do you know of Y, etc. since if they want someone with a large foundation of knowledge; they’d hire junior / entry instead

[marsh karma]

My interview will have a form of speed dating. A few mentors, one project manager and one HR. I need to talk with everyone and if any mentors want me, I am under him then. Or sth like that

[umbral valley]

Yeah. I’ve seen those a couple times at job fairs

[marsh karma]

How were they?

[vapid jay]

Is there a way for a self-taught programmer to make a career out of programming/to become a developer?

[indigo sleet]

Yep, of course

It mostly revolves around building a portfolio though

Get yourself a domain, build a site, have some open source projects and contributions

[hollow mantle]

I am a self taught freelancer. Mostly backend, testing, and algorithm dev. Feel free to ping me if you have any questions.

[mint sinew]

Um am I allowed to post job offers here?

@rare sand @molten spoke @stray dock @mild zenith

[molten spoke]

no

[mint sinew]

understood

[mild zenith]

Changed it to make it more clear

[rare sand]

I don't think it was necessary to make it any more clear

now it just says the same thing twice.

[karmic bramble]

I guess people will still not read it

Or read and deliberately ignore

[wanton holly]

"Explicit is better than implicit."

[limber zenith]

Guys, I expanded the number of linkedin contacts I have and now people are messaging me and I'm scared

[vivid dock]

Say hi to them

[limber zenith]

(and by that, I mean I did poorly in school)

[vivid dock]

Don't fall for the imposter syndrome

[limber zenith]

Yeah... I went to a school with a 75%+ polling rate for that...

I keep forgetting it's a thing

[vivid dock]

A very real thing

I suffer from it every day

[limber zenith]

Yeah, I just am annoyed cause I had the realization in the past weekish that my current job is super dead end and isn't really getting me any actual work experience

So I had a pseudocrisis of career

[vivid dock]

Hey, as long as you're doing somthing about it

[slim island]

i have hit my stretch career goals 5 years early

wat do now?

[rare sand]

brag about it on Discord?

oh wait you already did that.

the obvious answer is "set new goals"

[velvet kite]

shade

[slim island]

i legit don't know what to aim for next

[indigo sleet]

World domination!

Well, it's a good question, really

Unfortunately I don't think we have tons of people in your position here :P

[rare sand]

maybe focus on non-career goals

start a family. help the poor. buy a farm. whatever you wanna do with your life beyond work. sounds like you're in a good position for it.

[slim island]

yeah i want to ramp up my volunteer/ngo hours... looks like that's the right general direction to go according to you guys

[indigo sleet]

Yeah, one thing I enjoyed doing was helping at coderdojos

Maybe you could find something like that, or maybe a hackerspace

[velvet kite]

or pydis

[indigo sleet]

Haha, yes, pydis could use contributors too

[slim island]

pydis sounds like an eminem disstrack about python, without context

eli5 pydis? What does it do that off the shelf tooling doesn't?

[indigo sleet]

pydis? python discord

this community

https://github.com/python-discord

:P

[slim island]

oh ffs

https://github.com/TheAstroFactory/pydis

lol

[indigo sleet]

haha, had no idea that existed

[slim island]

namespace conflict

[rare sand]

I have no idea what that tool does.

oh yeah a reduction package for one dimensional longslit spectroscopy of course

apparently there's like a real estate company or a law firm or something called prydis

and we keep getting their emails

[velvet kite]

I'm not sure pry this is a good name for a law firm

[rare sand]

I must've replied to like 3-4 of those saying "uhhhhh maybe make sure you have the right address before you mail off some confidential papers there, buster."

eventually I mailed prydis itself and told them that these other morons kept sending the emails to us

I wonder what that led to :D

[slim island]

Lol

Accidental phishing attack

[humble elm]

they didint have that typical "if you recived this email by accident, delete it and tell us here: [e-mail]"

[timber notch]

@uneven pilot I think that, like with many things, it depends a lot on what your goals are. what do you want to get out of the next step: what would you like to learn, build, discover? do you have a specific goal in mind or just a broad set of interests?

[serene kindle]

@uneven pilot do literally every problem on leetcode in python
you won't regret it

https://leetcode.com/problemset/algorithms/ do literally every single problem

no regrets

[vivid dock]

What's the benefit of doing that?

as in, instead of telling someone to do something, why should they

[serene kindle]

the benefit is that you will be able to make programs you were never able to make before

you will be able to think of them and make them very quickly

its the perfect complement to your existing skill set

you know how to use the hammer, now you bulk up your muscles so you can hit it really hard

the other benefit is you can instantly get $300k jobs but thats just a coincidence

the main benefit is it is a very, extremely efficient and high value complement

for example

if you wanted to make some complicated program, before leetcode it would take a few months but after leetcode it would take a few hours

so you would leverage that into making 20 complicated programs instead of giving up on the first one

it sounds extreme but its true

[vivid dock]

That's an improvement to "do this", appreciate it 👍🏽

[serene kindle]

yay

np

[true sequoia]

Hey all, so I have experience with python, mostly doing ETL work and building monitoring and automation scripts in post-sale roles in enterprise ecommerce adtech/martech. Does anyone have suggestions on how to transition into a junior developer role?

[dawn fog]

does anyone know
about working from home jobs

[indigo sleet]

You'll probably want to ask a better question than that

:P

[dawn fog]

Likeeeeee

@indigo sleet

?

i mean

like jobs that use python

[indigo sleet]

I mean is that all you wanted to know?

[dawn fog]

but i can work from home

Yea

[indigo sleet]

The only thing you wanted to know is if we have people familiar with working from home in python

Well, the answer is yes, we do :P

[dawn fog]

@indigo sleet

OH fuck

[indigo sleet]

@dawn fog

[dawn fog]

i see what u saying

LMFAOOOO

[indigo sleet]

:P

[dawn fog]

but im tryna figure if u know any jobs

[indigo sleet]

So let's try again

Well, there's a site literally called remotepython

That's one place to look

Stack Overflow's jobs thing often has interesting stuff too

[dawn fog]

BET

i thought about lua

since i know it completely

[indigo sleet]

I don't think you'll find anything in that

[spare night]

yes, lua isn't very popular

[native atlas]

Can python give me good pay ?

[vivid dock]

Depends on what you do, and how well you do it

[native atlas]

Hmm, I would look into that but any jobs in the uk that have good pay?

I’m still young and I want to make a little bit of money through coding. What do you think of fiverr?

[vivid dock]

@hollow mantle Might be the guy to ask about that, hope you don't mind the ping, you said we could c:

I was curious about fiverr at some point myself, so interested to see if you've been into that

[hollow mantle]

The short answer is yes. I haven't used fiverr, but I'd imagine the experience is pretty much the same. Freelancing sites usually take a bite sized chunck out of your paycheck, but they are a great opportunity for building experience.

The downside is the majority of your work will be dealing with clients. Most of the time they don't even know what they want, it's your job to maintain a healthy relationship and steer them in the right direction.

Which is why I would suggest this option as a last resort. Even an internship would be preferable, since you won't be making a lot to start out anyway.

With that being said, I joined UpWork less than a year ago and I have a healthy amount of long-term clients, so moving outside of the platform was no big deal.

[vivid dock]

Thanks :)

[hollow mantle]

Np

Also, when you're first starting out, it's hard to land that first project. Mostly because you don't have anything on your profile. It took about 40+ applications before I landed a small script job.

It's a lot easier after that first one though

[native atlas]

Thanks for the help dude

[vapid jay]

Hey guys, not sure if this is the best place to post this but im currently a college student in my final year of undergrad, majoring in CS. I've applied to several jobs in the past few months, with not much success (a few coding challenges and a phone interview once in a while, no on-site)

What can i do to land a job? Ideally i want to work with python as that's my strongest language, perhaps backend development with flask or django or data engineering

[obsidian acorn]

do you have any projects that you have worked on?

[vapid jay]

i'm not the world's greatest programmer or developer but I feel like i have the skills to land a junior developer position, but im feeling dejected after so many rejections/ignores

yes

[wanton holly]

are you able to show that you've worked on open-source projects on things like github?

to a high quality.

[vapid jay]

i haven't done any open source projects but i think i could have the necessary skills to do so

[wanton holly]

a nice thicc github profile really gets the employers interested.

[vapid jay]

oh yeah absolutely lol

my github is pretty robust id say, a fair amount of repositories and commits

[obsidian acorn]

@vapid jay don't feel bad, we all go through this, the application phase is tough. most employers want people with experience, so it might be tough to land your first position, but don't give up hope though

do you contribute to other projects beside yours?

[vapid jay]

Thanks i appreciate it. It's just that I send many applications but can't seem to get past the hump

no, not really unfortunately

[obsidian acorn]

and what kind of projects do you have on github?

[vapid jay]

a few full stack development projects with flask and nosql databases, other assorted scripts and projects that i've worked on

i mean, if you want i can send you a link to it

[wanton holly]

working on projects besides yours shows that you're willing to spend your time helping others.

[vapid jay]

ah good point

[obsidian acorn]

and also, it shows that you are interested in the coding community

which is one of the things you will find out happens very often

[wanton holly]

and it also shows you're capable of working with others

[vapid jay]

where can i start with open source development?

[wanton holly]

you could look at our projects if you're struggling for ideas.

[vapid jay]

hmmm alright i'll try that

[obsidian acorn]

a lot of projects that some companies work on end up as open source project

most of the big data techs for example, started from Facebook, google, twitter, and now are open source

[vapid jay]

interesting

[obsidian acorn]

we actually have events going on, code jams, which closed as of last Friday for this month

we have the lovefest git projects

that you can go and do, they are good for beginners

also, working on other projects shows that you know how to work with others on git projects as well, in terms of doing pull requests, and merging with other projects

Also, you can find projects that you are interested in, see if they have any issues that you can solve

these things you will want to keep doing them even after you get a position

@vapid jay what are you thinking so far?

[vapid jay]

i think this sounds interesting

problem is im not sure if i have the time

cuz of classes and all

[obsidian acorn]

consider it as part of your application process

[wanton holly]

our website is open source at https://github.com/python-discord/site, perhaps it's something you might be interested in if you can't think of any other ideas. some of the things on the list of issues could even be solved really quickly, so it shouldn't eat into your time too much.

of course, i'm just giving you an example. if you find any repositories that interest you then by all means focus on those more.

[obsidian acorn]

besides all these, the best option for you is to keep at it. once you catch your first break, the rest will be easier

[wanton holly]

that's true.

[obsidian acorn]

you can also consider internship, or even volunteering, freelancing, or contracting to get your foot in the door

[wanton holly]

(contributing to open-source projects as a hobby is technically volunteering, hence why it's so good to do :D)

[vapid jay]

cool cool

appreciate the advice

[limber zenith]

Hey @vapid jay, where you living at currently?

[vapid jay]

I'm in the US

Greater NYC area to be more specific

[sharp yew]

think nyc is a major hub for data science

im going for that, you should too

[vivid carbon]

Where did the money from the AI Grant from pentagon go

[obsidian acorn]

that is a good question

[keen sable]

Hey all, question for you. Would I be obnoxious to re-apply for a job that turned me down 3-4 months back? I was told they were looking for someone with more experience, but to check back as I gained experience. I realize its only been 3 ish months, but I don't feel like the resume I gave them accurately portrayed what experience I do have. Also, they've been reposting said job, so I know they still need someone. As a new dev I know I don't get to pick and choose, but I would especially like to work with this company. I don't want to come off as annoying, though.

[tiny blaze]

uhh id give it a year but im no expert

[timid turtle]

Yeah... might be a little soon

[obsidian acorn]

Yeah, I have not tried that, but have you had another position since? @keen sable or you just keep studying and working on your own?

[whole tundra]

as someone in my first year of programming in college, what is python skill that I can start developing now to make me more desirable to employers?

[tiny blaze]

just a shot in the dark here but learing how to cooperate w/ other people on projects is good

[solid tusk]

Learn git

Object oriented programming

Django

That should keep you busy for a while 😄

[keen sable]

@obsidian acorn I haven't held a full time programming position anywhere. I am actively maintaining a platform I built solo for a music marketing company, though. I decided I'm just going to go for it and apply again. Hell, what's the worst that can happen? Either they'll appreciate my persistence, or they'll just ignore me.

[red spindle]

@whole tundra eventually, contributing and bugfixing for open source projects, should get you lots of brownie poinnts

[obsidian acorn]

Ok, sounds good

let us know how it goes @keen sable

[keen sable]

Will do!

[umbral valley]

Public resume strikes again, just left it on Indeed after accepting a job offer and have now had 2-3 companies reach out to me for interviews. definitely a nice tip if you're hunting in a relatively competitive area

[vapid jay]

clemFandango.. where is that name from..lol.. IT crowd?

[sudden hearth]

This is pretty neat https://www.techworker.coop/

[indigo sleet]

Noth America only, if people are wondering

[obsidian acorn]

congrats @umbral valley what position did you take?

[umbral valley]

im in assessment as of like a month ago

[obsidian acorn]

what do you do as assessment?

that is within the tech field?

[umbral valley]

Yeah

It's like source code auditing

so i write tools to verify design patterns are used, check for unitilized variables, etc

[obsidian acorn]

Awesome.

[keen sable]

@vapid jay Toast of London

[limber zenith]

Uh, guys... I hail Maryed my resume to Google and apparently they want me to do an informal phone interview with one of their hiring managers. What do I do?

[craggy wave]

Do an informal phone interview with one of their hiring managers, I guess

If you'd like to work there

[timber notch]

@limber zenith that's a very common first-step in the process. congrats! take the call.

[limber zenith]

I mean yes I'll be taking the call, @timber notch do you know how common these 1st round informals with Google are?

[timber notch]

@limber zenith yeah, generally they're a high-level discussion to gauge if you're a good fit to bring into the full on-site process. they may spend about half the time asking you about yourself, your work in general, etc. to determine your overall personality fit, and then they'll likely spend sometime asking technical questions. what form the latter half can take varies pretty greatly, but I wouldn't be surprised if they asked some type of coding comprehension questions

(full disclaimer, I have been the person on the other end of that call many times in the past)

(not as a hiring manager though, the places I've worked tend to have more-senior engineers do those first calls)

[limber zenith]

Yeah, the call is with a "technical recruiter" for the company. Idk man, I'm just really taken by surprise.

[timber notch]

@limber zenith ah, "technical recruiter" is markedly different from "hiring manager", but still it's a good step in the right direction. if anything that'll make the call go a bit easier/less-technically, so don't sweat it! what's the worst that could happen? they say "thank you for your time" and you're now one more phone-interview more experienced 😃

[topaz kiln]

Hey all. I'm new, if this isn't the right forum I'd love a heads up. I'm finishing up a Python assessment for a job interview and I'm trying to figure out what's the best course of action if I know I'm submitting something partially wrong. Do I ignore the problematic part of the assessment? Submit something that doesn't properly answer the requirement but shows I tried? This is the first time I've had to code something as part of a recruiting process.

Also, I was given multiple days to do the coding. Do candidates get brownie points if they finish these kinds of things early?

[timber notch]

@topaz kiln document what you did to try to solve the problem, what you learned and what you might do differently if you had more time.

@topaz kiln as for brownie points, if they do give points for finishing first then it's not a place I'd recommend working

@topaz kiln absolutely do not ignore the problematic part. in fact, the people on the other end may solely focus on how you handled the problematic part. I would.

[austere igloo]

Rather than finishing early it is better to spend additional time with documentation, annotating, writing tests, or coming up with alternative solutions

make the solution thorough as if it is a real world problem

[topaz kiln]

Awesome, thanks. I can do a write up of the things that didn't work. I'd submit that in a separate document, right?

[hollow mantle]

No, I would document everything using docstrings. Make sure you have your minimal viable product, and save it somewhere else. Then you can use whatever time you have left to try and fix your bug. Document every change you make, and why you made it. If you don't end up fixing the issue, you can submit the project you already had saved, and maybe the one in which you were trying to solve the issue.

This will show that you produced working code, saw there was an issue, and started working on a fix.

[topaz kiln]

👍 got it.

[obsidian acorn]

@topaz kiln one other thing to take into consideration, when you are given a coding challenge, to do over multiple days, it is not expected that you are able to complete it by yourself, based on your knowledge, thought it would be a good pat on the back to yourself. It is, however expected that you will try, and seek help if you run into issues, ask questions, to them, or to your peers, look up similar questions, or part of the questions on google, or ask in a community in order to solve the problem. Because when you start working, you are not expected to know everything, but rather to have the attitude, and mentality that says that you want to seek to find the solution, and /or ask questions that may give you a better understanding of the problem to propose/find solutions for it.

...

wow that was long

[timber notch]

not at all wrong though! in fact, very well said @obsidian acorn, wish I'd been as articulate! 👍

absolutely 💯, that may actually be the single most important quality of a successful professional. maybe the only quality you really need.

[obsidian acorn]

thanks. @timber notch

[topaz kiln]

Thanks bro! Appreciate it. I submitted it earlier with a long description of what I attempted. The role doesn't require an understanding of Python, just prefers applicants who know it, so I'm hopeful it'll be received well.

[tiny blaze]

what does it require?

[vapid jay]

Are there any python interns that don't care how much experience you have with python (excepts for basics obviously) just as long as you learn? Sort of like an apprenticeship?

I don't think so

[topaz kiln]

@tiny blaze is that directed at me?

[tiny blaze]

yes

[misty igloo]

@vapid jay It matters more having self-learning experience than getting experience at the workplace itself

[topaz kiln]

Oh. It's a trading desk role for new grads. It's more about having an understanding of algorithmic trading, options, and database systems, with R/Python/MATLAB being a bonus

[real python]

Please read the channel topic. This is not a recruitment server

[vapid jay]

was that directed to me? I mean't like examples 😅

[unreal linden]

no @vapid jay, the person it was directed at had their message removed

[vapid jay]

ah

[gaunt ingot]

Hi, I am a self taught programmer. I was wondering if someone could point me to tutorials/videos/books that focus on industry standards

stuff like how to make classes/objects/functions that make sense, "proper" way to make comments for people working in teams to understand, keeping variable names consistent in bigger projects

[cobalt lark]

@gaunt ingot Read PEP8 it's a good start for naming convention

[gaunt ingot]

thanks, it's this one correct? https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/

[wind mica]

That's be it, yeah.

[real sigil]

Hello guys. I was wondering if you might be able to give me some advice... I hope you can help me decide. I live in Montreal, Canada and I'm 41 years old.

Due to a work accident, unfortunately, I'm forced to change career. I come from a different background that involves troubleshooting issues, work with computers and technical equipment, so I consider myself a problem solver and a techie person.

I have no previous coding experience and I'm wondering if there is a good/solid path I can follow (local courses, online courses or books) that will take me from learning the basics up to become an advanced Python developer. My goal is to gain enough skills to, one day, be able to work with machine learning. I'm really having a hard time filtering out good materials from all the noise there is on the internet... Could you guys please help me to create a good learning path so I don't waste more time? If so, what would you recommend?

Thank you very much in advance!

[tiny blaze]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected goodies that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/info/resources

[real sigil]

Thanks, @tiny blaze!

[tiny blaze]

np

[limber zenith]

Hoooooly fuck my ass that (non google) interview was sooooo bad... I was rusty AF for my high level CS theory

[limber zenith]

Idk man, sorry. I just needed a place to complain

[tawny quartz]

That's fine as long as you share some specific insights on what went wrong and why 😉

[tiny blaze]

its alright

[limber zenith]

I'm mostly been just braindead been coding for about 6 months and I failed to brush up on some of my fundamentals. Example questions for those who want them:
"What is scrum and why do people use it?"
"What are the benefits of OOP?"

I'm also not super articulate

But now that I have those in my head, I won't forget them

[tawny quartz]

It's also good to be prepared to discuss the downsides of any paradigm/tool/technology/technique/etc.

Demonstrate you're able to play Devil's advocate to lead the team to a decision that is ultimately the most beneficial for the organization

[limber zenith]

What downsides are there to agile sans the generally accepted mantra of "don't change things mid sprint"

[austere igloo]

too many meetings

[karmic bramble]

I think it also leads to ignoring the whole sprint concept and just spontaneously jumping at every issue without any evaluation and planning beforehand

[limber zenith]

Turning into essentially shitty Kanban?

[karmic bramble]

dunno too much about that one 🤷

[limber zenith]

Kanban is the stickynotes on the whiteboard thing if you've ever seen it

"move it to the end of the board and into the bin"

[karmic bramble]

aren't those concepts usually used together anyway?

[limber zenith]

Generally, but people like to preach that they're agile only (which works more for building on a large project)

Kanban is far superior for bugfixing and maintainence

[karmic bramble]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

I don't think blindly following any methodology without questioning it and adapting it to the specific project needs if suitable is a good idea anyway

[limber zenith]

Well yeah

From what I can tell, most people use a Kanban board (Jira usually) and just have daily stand ups and regular retrospectives

[karmic bramble]

sounds like what I observe at my workplace

the degree of "scrum-ness" varies from team to team, project to project, and customer to customer

[timber notch]

@limber zenith there are many problems with Agile as implemented by most teams. a good place to start though, is with "story points": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVBlnCTu9Ms&feature=youtu.be

[vital cliff]

Hi do you guys have experience with "draft day" style of interview?
I am the first year uni student who entered summer internship program
I had like zero coding skill when i girst enroll. My main programming language is Python.
I am interested in the data field,although i had no experience. I did the python movie parsing project once

[uncut oxide]

How do you all go about displaying your work publicly (Portfolio, LinkedIn, etc) when it all revolves around sensitive and/or classified data? I'm having a hard time showing results with obfuscated data and still making it look right.

[real python]

You don’t. If it’s relevant to the positions you’re applying for then they’ll know why you can’t be specific. I would pose the question to your infosec personnel, because the methods can be as sensitive as the data itself and nobody here can assess that properly

[uncut oxide]

Well, yea, that's the short of it. You don't. I guess I should have expanded further. Given that situation, how do you all build up a profile/portfolio in such situations? Are we basically limited to side projects unrelated to what we do.

[real python]

Not necessarily totally unrelated, no. If you’re doing say, big data analytics, there are plenty of public or mocked datasets that you can work with to showcase that you have experience working with large datasets and obtaining meaningful information from them

[uncut oxide]

Yeah, I guess it just doesn't feel as impactful as a "we had a problem. i did this to solve it. Results were $xxxx."

[real python]

Well, again, what you can release publicly about your accomplishments is a question for your infosec folks

[umbral valley]

@limber zenith downsides to agile would be volatility as a big one. It’s hard sometimes to fully quantify what’s in a deliverable. So you set up stories, start doing the thing, and then wind up way off schedule multiple times. Also it’s really heavy communication wise, which poses it’s own challenges. And also the requirements generally aren’t fully outlined until it’s go time for that feature which relates to #1 again.

It’s a good system still, but those would be downsides to agile

[vapid jay]

i'm trying to hire a python dev

anyone here in the bay area?

anyone super smart?

that's my #1 rule

[craggy wave]

We don't allow recruitment on this serer at the moment

We're working on a system, but we feel it needs to be regulated

[vapid jay]

geez

i break all the rules i don't know exist

[craggy wave]

It's quite visible in the channel topic

[vapid jay]

oh did i have to read something?

cause i'm in a LOT of servers

so many words gosh

[craggy wave]

Frankly, I don't care; it's your decision to be in many community and it doesn't absolve you of the responsibility to read our rules.

[vapid jay]

well i'm here to give ppl career advice

who needs help?

i LOVE rules

i love following rules

[craggy wave]

Okay, this is your last warning to stop trolling in on-topic channels. If you have nothing useful to add, then please don't add anything.

[upper fjord]

I was recently employed as a IT-Administrator (the most generic title ever) and some work that I have been doing is updating excel files with data containing companies, telephone numbers, e-mail adresses etc.. Basically a call list for a specific purpose (in this case to recruit companies to provide internships for the students).

I quite enjoy that kind of work so far (assembling data in excel) and I can possibly use python to ease the workload.

Now my question is, is there any specific field I should be looking into for these kinds of jobs? My initial thought was "Data mining" but I am not sure.

Maybe a more correct term would be "Data scraping"?

[vapid jay]

i'm not trolling! i'm a hiring manager

ok your right @craggy wave i don't belong here

[umbral valley]

@upper fjord office automation is probably the more tech way to word it

As data mining / scraping tend to be more in the form of: goto website -> download data -> repeat a bunch -> assemble it somehow

So it’s not like completely wrong, just maybe not the broadest term you could use

[upper fjord]

Y, do you think people are hiring these kinds of people? Is it something one should try to make a career of? Never heard of people doing this

As a full time job that is

[umbral valley]

i would imagine so but I’m not 100%

[upper fjord]

I wonder what the pay would be like

[upbeat escarp]

hello all, new to the server. I've been a hobbyist programmer for several years. I know the basics of programming across many languages, dropped out of computer science in college and I've been working in retail for my entire adult life. I'm a salaried manager at walmart but I'm weighing seriously jumping into programming. Python is interesting, and it seems like there may be a lot of career potential with the language but I really don't know what's possible and reasonable, and where I should focus my efforts since I have limited free time between work and family.

[umbral valley]

@upbeat escarp there's not really a set path for someone to follow, but everything is possible without a degree it's just MUCH harder. Your ability to network and market yourself is going to be your best friend

[upbeat escarp]

I've been terrible at both of those things haha,I know it holds me back and I need to work on that as well

[umbral valley]

I say that because, as someone whose self taught you aren't going to have that same expected level of knowledge as others with a degree. Even if you posess it - there's no real credential to prove it. Added onto the fact that there are so many applications that get sent into recruiters / jobs, they just don't have the time to look at everyones github / projects. So it's very hard to get that first job, but it is doable

[upbeat escarp]

and I know that there are a ton of ways to use python. i guess I'm looking for a stable career jump as much as possible at first. and then maybe see where the passion takes me

right that makes complete sense

[karmic bramble]

Might be a good idea to try and get into a business from your current job field, so that you also have the value of your related business domain experience.

[umbral valley]

there are options though, like boot camps, that try to offer like a mini degree as some form of credential but they have a pretty big problem in that there's no overseeing authority like accreditation boards that colleges have to answer to. As a result of this, the education quality, and respectability of them can vary WILDLY from place to place

[karmic bramble]

E.g. looking at e-commerce stuff like building/maintaining web shops or similar platforms for retailers, or going for something in the field of data analysis for someone from that domain

[umbral valley]

Really though I guess it boils down to try to learn everything you can - not just python, but high level theory - data structures, algorithms, etc, and apply to literally everything

[upbeat escarp]

yea in the past I've made apps that helped me manage and do my own job more efficiently. used odd things like unity to develop ui apps for mobile. I messed with react-native a while too because I like making apps .. and mobile in particular since everybody has a phone on them

thats a good point @karmic bramble

I've given some thought to this as well .. just trying to figure out the steps/path

[umbral valley]

Yeah that's fair - it's just kind of awkward in that there isn't really a cut and dry path

[upbeat escarp]

right :<

and then how to apply it into a career

hard to envision it

everybody seems to be doing web apps and I've tried with ruby/rails in the past. not sure if web is for me but I did start looking into django

[karmic bramble]

I think you won't have too much difficulties to find a job (at least a junior position for the start) in the IT field with the programming experience you describe and the additional work experience, if it fits your target job business. Actual IT knowledge is pretty overrated for intro positions, I believe.

[upbeat escarp]

honestly it seems like the careers are primarily focused on web from what I've gathered over the years

[umbral valley]

If you can get an interview youll nail it seems like

its just getting that is the problem

[karmic bramble]

From my point of view, a company might prefer someone who can still get "shaped" and trained on the actual job, but with passion for the field and even additional business domain knowledge.

Learning programming is the easy part.

[upbeat escarp]

that would be awesome.. I think i have personal walls I need to tear down more than anything and just go for it.. but I want to be at the point where I feel ready for it and useful too

[karmic bramble]

Focus on your passion and showcase both your career path so far as well as your progress in learning things

[umbral valley]

I'd agree to that too Byte, but at the same time you cant just bring someone in with zero knowledge

[karmic bramble]

no, not zero, of course

but the company you end up at might use completely different tools and languages and frameworks anyway, so you'll have to learn a lot of new stuff for sure.

[upbeat escarp]

true. I am fairly agnostic when it comes to coding

just haven't committed to anything enough to feel like I could make a career with it

[karmic bramble]

therefore passion and motivation, willingness and ability to learn, as well as domain knowledge are IMHO higher in weight (at least for a junior/entry level dev position) than actual technical skills, as long as you have solid basics.

You need some of all of these things. But you don't need to master any to be employable.

[umbral valley]

Also very true

[upbeat escarp]

well I appreciate that. thanks both of you for helping me out. Do you think it makes most sense to put a considerable chunk of time into django at first?

if I'm trying to be marketable

[karmic bramble]

if you want to go in the ecommerce/webshop/... direction, or web development in general, it's surely a valuable experience to list

However, I'm in the ecommerce business too, and at least where I work, the backend landscape is strongly dominated by Java frameworks.

[upbeat escarp]

js does seem to be dominant

[karmic bramble]

Frontend, sure. I don't think too many large e-commerce frameworks have node js backends

[upbeat escarp]

what are most python careers/jobs related to? is it more math and data analysis?

[umbral valley]

Web dev and ML

or robotics

[karmic bramble]

From what I know, Python jobs are mostly machine learning and data science, followed by web development

[umbral valley]

I use python at my job for assessment tooling

but thats not standard

[karmic bramble]

devops is growing too

[upbeat escarp]

I'll look into these and see what they're all about thanks

helps to know the landscape 😃

[karmic bramble]

👍

[upbeat escarp]

I appreciate your time, thanks a lot!

[karmic bramble]

You're welcome. All the best for your path.

[upbeat escarp]

don't know where it's heading but I'll take some steps!

[vapid jay]

I live in California and I am graduating in May. I was wondering when I should apply for a job.

[tiny blaze]

around the time you graduate

[vapid jay]

So not a couple of months before?

Like 3

[tiny blaze]

if theres a job that doesnt start until may go ahead

but id imagine most jobs would prefer you start immediately

[vapid jay]

Okay

[tiny blaze]

you probably could squeeze in a little bit before graduating but months is a bit long

im not an expert by any means

shouldnt take my advice especially on its own

[vapid jay]

One of my classmates said companies hire now and wait

🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔

What do you do

[tiny blaze]

idk

but programmers are really sought after

especially ones that are experienced and went to college

[vapid jay]

Alot of cs jobs

Im average tho

In many ways

[tiny blaze]

lol yea im not sure that doesnt make programmers rare

the more jobs they are the more theyre needed, ya know

i just dont think its a good idea to apply months before you will actually be who you claim you are

especially since youre still in school n need to study and stuff

[vapid jay]

My classes arent really hard

Taking 13 units and two of the classes are easy af

I have alot of free time

I don't know want i want to specialize in

I am willing to take anything for the first few years first

[vapid jay]

Would Side-projects increase my chances of getting accepted in a university?

[neat anchor]

@vapid jay ignore everything that guy said, you need to have already started applying

@vapid jay unless you can spin them as a side job, no

[vapid jay]

So if I'm able to turn them to make money that will do the thing?

[neat anchor]

Yes

Honestly if you can make any kinda profit at all

Register a limited company

Then you have an actual job for a real company

Which looks good on your resume/CV

[vapid jay]

So what matters is to have a company, no matter how small it is

[neat anchor]

And to be able to have made some amount of money

Even if its just a little

You gotta show you can make stuff with a focus for business goals

Dont have to put the dollar amount yoh made

But you do have to be able to explain how you made money

[vapid jay]

Thanks

[neat anchor]

No worries, just remember me if you want to be paid $15/hr to do work that is paid $70/hr elsewhere

[real python]

@vapid jay your school should also have an employment office that would be a good place to check out as well

[wise zinc]

Hey, I'm a med student and I'd like to build my curriculum and skills for possible opportunities in the future. Anyone has any advice? I was thinking of learning some programming skill or even learning about deep learning to work with more precise diagnosis with machines(for example, one of the reasons we still need an experienced cardiologist to read an ECG is because the algorithm i that gives us the possible diagnosis on the ECG sheet is completely unreliable).

[solemn valley]

there is actually distinct fields of computer science such as Medical Informatics or Bio Informatics for that afaik

[timber notch]

@unkempt ocean really good on you for looking to expand your skill set, and especially expand it with programming skill! as you've likely noticed, computers are literally everywhere in every industry and therefore the ability to understand and make changes to them is highly valuable. I think you'd be best served just learning to program well first, before diving directly into any domain-specific learning. Not to say that your field is not rife for some significant technological advances based on modern deep-learning: it's just that that stuff is highly complicated even for those of us that have been in the industry for many years 😃

TL;DR: don't put the cart before the horse; get a solid fundamental understanding of computing and programming first, then diving into the domain-specific work will be a breeze.

[wise zinc]

@solemn valley Yeah, but I can't specialize in that here; I'd have to finish my course and then start another graduation on that

And seeing how fast the field moves, I'd be losing opportunities

[vapid jay]

cant you minor in CS?

[wise zinc]

Nope, sry. I'm from Brazil and the system here is a little bit different

[vapid jay]

is there an equivalent of a minor

[wise zinc]

Only some universities have optative subjects and even so you usually don't have the option to go so far from your area

Sadly, no

I see that as a problem too (if you think that a broad curriculum can open you more opportunites than a fixed one where everyone know the same, but I can't do anything about it inside of the university)

That's why I'm learning outside of it

[vapid jay]

I am a CS major and I have to learn a lot of stuff outside of school

stuff pertaining to my major

[wise zinc]

In your opinion, where do you think I should start? (never coded before but I'm willing to learn it as long as i can fit into 2-3 hours free at most per day; med school is too time consuming)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr6VqTRO1v0

I found this

[solemn valley]

you should not start off with machine learning

[wise zinc]

IDK if it is enough, if it is more than I need

[solemn valley]

thats for sure

[wise zinc]

OH, ok

[solemn valley]

no what you should do is
learn a programming language which is used in ml (like python) -> do some little projects with it so you get familiar -> when you feel familiar do a bit more advanced stuff with it and THEN start messing around with a specific topic like machine learning in detail

[wise zinc]

I see

I remember someone telling me once a few years ago about Learnign Python th Hard Way

But I think it is paid now

was it always ?

[solemn valley]

however I am not sure if youll be able to actually work in medical informatics when you learn the things for yourself without any academic qualification but hey you can try

that book is no good, its not recommended by us no what is recommended by us is

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected goodies that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

https://pythondiscord.com/info/resources

[wise zinc]

As long as I can get a certificate, somehow, that I know programming it is enough

[solemn valley]

i wouldnt be so sure about that

[wise zinc]

As someone from the inside I can say for sure that many doctors are wayy behind in tech things

[solemn valley]

some fields do require you to have some academic qualification

[wise zinc]

So they are willing to give you chances if you show them you know something

Well, at least here in Brazil I mean

@solemn valley You mean like working for some medical software company?

[solemn valley]

yeah for example, I'm not sure but if people make mistakes in that field it could end really bad for the customers so I'd assume they would want qualified people

[wise zinc]

Yes, it would

but you see

Even though we are a big country we are still third world

and third world coutries have their own problems