!
#career-advice
half karma
halcyon turret
yes I know the university
but not their pre-university exam
half karma
ah kk
i will give o level computer science exam next year
at the age of 14 and 9 months
that so early tho
;-;
half karma
i feel scared af
i need to get an a or a*
class test i usually get out of 20 lets say 18 or higher
;-;
halcyon turret
exams are scary yeah
halcyon turret
not useless :D
but it will be harder if you do bad in your school exams yes
there are always other paths
halcyon turret
LOL 
karmic bramble
half karma
🙄
cunning notch
the conversation was tangentially relevant to Python careers, it is no longer that way
let's refocus or end it
half karma
and here comes the killer ;-;
ebon mortar
How is udemy for learning and getting a career or stick with a university program
halcyon turret
Udemy is great but a university program is far more valuable
a lot of jobs are graduates-only
many employers are flexible about this and will hire a non-graduate if their skills are good
but then some employers are pretty inflexible and will rarely, if ever, hire a non-graduate
umbral valley
Coursera has some nice classes
halcyon turret
Treehouse
hearty forum
After being in IT for 8.5 years or so and enjoying scripting / automation i learned enough python to get a job as software engiener....but have to use VB and little C#.
Friend got a gig at a pretty decent paying place and they're talking to me about a devops type role where i'll have to use python.
Anyone in here by chance do that type stuff? I really do enjoy software engineering but the lines seem to blur when it comes to devops...at least for me 😃
ocean barn
@hearty forum in a basic sense a devops engineer is just a coder in IT, but acts as a supporting role for a software development team. Some companies have devops departments, while other companies have one dedicated devops person for every software development team (depending on the size of the company). The main goal for a devops engineer is making the build pipeline for a software project as easy and smooth as possible. So when a developer comes up to you and says "the build is slow" it's your job to figure out if it's because they wrote some bad code or the build chain needs adjusting. So you both need to know your pipeline but also know the source code of the product.
As a company grows so do the devops tasks. My current situation is that I am in a devops team managing several build pipelines with half stock and half custom tooling written in our team - that's the parts you get to code yourself and have full control over.
But it sounds like with your background you're more or less perfect for a devops role.
tawny quartz
Best explaination of dev ops I've heard yet, thanks.
rare dawn
informative, thanks
rare dawn
Im a relatively new coder looking to change careers more or less. Besides going back to school for a CS degree, what would be a good method to approach becoming a hirable coder?
Im regularly expanding my knowledge through new projects, have purchased a few books on CS and Python to improve my jargon/coding communication skills. Are there some sort of certifications I should consider must haves or something?
final bough
:0
fluid matrix
@rare dawn
going back to school for cs is good, but you don't necessarily need too if you're a good self-learner with a lot of discipline
elfin phoenix
I know that my math background has helped in regards to learning the more intricate parts of coding, so it also depends on what else you might know.
fluid matrix
the hardest part about becoming a good programmer is not learning how to code!
is learning how to think! and this has nothing to do with coding.
elfin phoenix
Yerp.
rare dawn
Right but I’m talking “on paper hire” or is portfolio / git of decent work sufficient?
hearty forum
@ocean barn thanks for the reply.
Maybe thats not what I enjoy as much then? I have a hard enough time as it is when it comes to reading other peoples code. I'll tell the other lvl 1 software engineer when he maybe could do somethign ebtter and we have another lvl 2 that just hasn't used entity framework or listeners so I showed him how to do that. Utltimately I constantly feel nervous about leaving "IT" and being more on software side. I LOVE the challenge but I constantly worry about being behind the curve from people who went to school for software engineering
fluid matrix
@rare dawn
many CTO will tell you that between a Junoir who only has his/her CS degree to show off vs the self-taught who has quite a lot of contributions to open source projects and a lot of interesting personal project in Github plus having a good personality. They will choose the self-taught.
halcyon turret
people with CS degrees tend to have a good Github though
main thicket
Practically everyone will choose the self taught with own projects and contributions over a guy with CS degree and nothing
fluid matrix
@main thicket
the thing that most people don't understand is that self-discipline; the ability to commit to a task for a long period of time till completed, without it being an obligation from a third party, is quite an important treats that many CTO research in a candidate.
@halcyon turret
when asked the question to know why sometimes someone who only started to learn to code for 3 months can land a job and others don't, I have heard a CTO responding that it quite depend on cases, when the position can be stretched to be open for entry levels too, finding someone who has the predisposition to evolve fast is more important than the CS degree.
fringe helm
Practically everyone will choose the self taught with own projects and contributions over a guy with CS degree and nothing
i disagree
A lot of the job listings I've seen require a degree to get anywhere near the interview stage
vapid jay
Most I've seen says '' x degree or equivalent"
Which I guess that the equivalent is a strong repository - experience
but it also depends on the job
some jobs do really require a cs regardless
there are also a lot that requires you to just be a framework god and say nothing about having a cs
icy berry
If I where to select someone for a programming job, I would ask about a CS degree. most because you do need to know that the candidate have enough math knowledge.
If the candidate does not have a CS degree, then I would have to figure out what math knowledge he/she has.
Then I would ask about what the candidate programs in their spare time, if the answer is "I do not program in my spare time" then the interview is over, even if they have a CS degree.
I am not in a position to select someone for this kind of job, this is just my five cents
vapid jay
Fair enough
fringe helm
But for a programming job you don't always have to have a CS degree
solemn valley
yes he just said that
rare dawn
would
"Self-Employed 3D Artist,
-managed all aspects of small digital assets store
-vendor items with Sony Online Entertainment / now Daybreak Game Company.
-communicated regularly with customers and contract drafters to ensure specifications"
be a decent example of self-discipline etc?
I mean obviously that wont cover any coding eligibility but in terms of "self-discipline" "self-motivated" kinda thing
boreal vault
Hello. Do you think it is possible to thought myself a python in about a year and find a job from home? I live in UK, but I can only work from home. Also I can only spend about 1-2 hours per day on learning
real python
Definitely
Would it be related to your current career or do you want to do something completely different?
boreal vault
It is completely different. I drive forklift truck now...
umbral valley
A lot of government jobs require a degree. At least around me
halcyon turret
same for UK government
burnt tiger
is it generally considered necessary to go for a CS degree specifically or are other similar 4 year degrees like IT also acceptable in the software development industry? I'm primarily focused on doing self learning these days with the 4 year degree just helping to reinforce that. Also, the specific reason I'm going for IT currently instead of CS is because i'm not really a fan of calculus. After finishing a trig class a few semesters ago (highest required math course in degree) i'd rather be done with it. I'm good with the more logical-type math and statistics, but calc just rubs me the wrong way so i'd rather avoid taking 3 courses on it if i can.
proven wren
Depends on location
my friends who did IT all got grad programs while i'm still trying to get through my CS degree with intentions of getting similar grad programs. (This is Melbourne, Australia)
warm leaf
Nice, another Aussie
boreal vault
My grades are so bad no uni will take me
And I cannot afford to study full time. Also I’m alost 28 years old
proven wren
If you're in aus you sit a stat test over the age of 21 and your highschool grades aren't used
plus you get priority for being mature aged
boreal vault
UK
hardy rivet
A lot of successful people started out with bad grades and no money. The question is really if you can teach yourself and see through what you start. If so, there are plenty of resources to get you to an expert level at little to no cost at your own pace.
"1-2 hours per day" applied consistently is a lot more than it sounds like.
boreal vault
I’m not aiming to be a success story. Just want to work from home, at my hours, even if I make less than average
Because if I go to work I will have to pay £700 a month for nursery
main thicket
@burnt tiger basically any degree goes in the software world
Need some projects to show you know some shit, but yeah
I can understand not enjoying calc. Just do the IT degree, there's hardly any difference to begin with
real python
There is a pretty big difference between CS and IT curriculum
vapid jay
Animatrix - I feel your pain!
boreal vault
@vapid jay lets hug 😄
boreal vault
yes it is a bit silly. I would rather earn less, my worst case scenario, to quit job and work on weekends only. I will have abotu same amount of money left and spend 5 days with my baby 😄
rare sand
thats super expensive, shit
mine is there 50 hours a week, I only pay 300ish euros.
perks of a socialist democracy I guess.
boreal vault
and maternity leave is only 9 months over here
it is off topic, I don't want to even start it 😄
kind jetty
@rare sand have i told you the story of being charged like 20k for the hospital to miss all the scheduled blood checks when the concern was poisoning
Gud helthcure
I'm usually a pretty ill person so if I weren't on me dad's insurance, not even a goldman sachs ceo salary would save me
Since insurances in kansas can deny preexisting conditions coverage
kind jetty
@rare sand i survive, i guess. Idk what it would be like if healthcare didnt cost an arm and a leg
Going to the doctor and not paying out the nose is a foreign idea ive never experienced
rare sand
never paid more than like 50 bucks at a doctor, never paid for a hospital stay.
and I don't have health insurance.
real python
You and your damn socialism
wanton holly
i only approve of socialism because free healthcare has saved my life more times than id like to admit :D
rare sand
socialist democracy is just a good idea.
also wtf this is #career-advice
get out. let's all get out.
stray dock
shoo shoo
rare sand
I'm from Norway, yeah
halcyon turret
oh i thought you moved to norway
boreal vault
I'm originally from Lithuania it is a bit poor, but still has I think 2 years maternity leave with 90% pay and then you can stay for another year for 50%. Also state owned kindergartens are free
in UK only school is free also maternity leave is 9 months and they pay I think 90% for two months and then, half minimal wage for rest
so it is harsh
so if you don't earn much you better of just quitting job and claiming benefits, what I think is silly
vapid jay
fluid matrix
@boreal vault
Because if I go to work I will have to pay £700 a month for nursery``` read your own post again, are you noticing the reason why you're in the situation you're in right now?@boreal vault
I had to learn the hard way as it took me a while to really notice and learn that the human mind is wired to achieve less than whatever it believes is enough.
have you ever let say for instance aimed to charge a client $2k but then after negotiation you ended up making only $1700 or even way less?
it's the same principle in life, this is why it's dangerous to not aiming and working toward BIG goals in life because you will often only accomplish less than whatever you think it's enough.
fluid matrix
So, whatever you're aiming for, 10x it and then fully commit soul, sweat, and efforts to work toward that instead! I mean no pretending, I'm talking about really committing to work toward whatever bigger goal size you will get after 10xing it.
I guarantee you, you will have 100% chance without doubts to accomplish your original goal. I can guarantee you that.
boreal vault
Thank you
boreal vault
But overestimating your abilities is also a bad thing
vivid dock
Aiming high, and overestimating isnt always the same thing
fluid matrix
@boreal vault
The biggest tragedy in a lifetime is not that people aim too high and miss, it's that people aim too low and hit.
@vivid dock
Aiming high, and overestimating isnt always the same thing well said
viscid vapor
a few hits is better than a few misses, imo
getting stuck in a constant cycle of starting a big project, then failing to complete the project, and then moving onto another big project won't yield any results
someone with a few months of casual programming experience will rarely be able to do stuff like set up a web server or use machine learning practically
vivid dock
But getting started, without having it be something you promise youll do, will in the end give some form of knowledge on the topic, even if you fail
viscid vapor
I agree, through a dozen barely started text RPGs I learned the lists, dictionaries, indexing, and for loops
Although I learned much faster when I just focused on the individual subjects instead of scraping stack overflow whenever I couldn't figure out how to program a specific part
elfin phoenix
You need hits to be appealing, but the misses help you get to that point.
It can be helpful to work with someone more experienced, as they will notice your mistakes faster than a novice would, and thus you can get through the failure cycle faster.
Of course, said person needs to be understanding of what's going on, but there's a reason apprenticeships were so popular back in the day.
boreal vault
I have joined some game projects as 3D artist. All died. Because people think it is good idea to make MMORPG as first project
vivid dock
Small ones.. maybe, big multi million AAA games, no
rare sand
small mmorpg? you know what that first m is short for, right?
multiplayer for a first project is insane altogether
vivid dock
Right, small rpg 
icy berry
I was offered a job on a large game project, but since i do not want to move my family it was a no go.
when i now look at this games server infra structure and "the part I was to work on" looks amazing and I regret it to this very day.
boreal vault
Even smaller indie projects rarely reach prototype stage
Never been lucky enough to witness that
rare sand
got more than a couple of friends in gamedev, they're all bound by iron-clad NDAs that make sure they can't write a single line of code that doesn't belong to their employer, and they work 80 hour weeks more often than not.
it might not be like that for everyone, I only have anecdotal evidence..
but my take is that gamedev is better left as a hobby, or in smaller indie devs, maybe.
working for major studios just doesn't seem worth it.
icy berry
I have the same anecdotal evidence about that.
rare sand
many of them still love it, though
but I think it's because they've become best friends with everyone else who works in there, and because their offices are often lavish as fuck
with free snacks and free drinks and free beer and pool tables and VR rooms and why would you ever go home if you don't have a family?
it's designed to make you wanna spend 15 hours a day there willingly.
but it's not for everyone.
icy berry
yes, this is true. also massage and spa-ish treatments. Its for some people indeed.
fluid matrix
@elfin phoenix You need hits to be appealing, but the misses help you get to that point.
The difference is even when you fail with the big goal, in the end, you will have learned way more concepts throughout the project than the individual who doesn't even conceive in his/her mind he/she can do it, let alone getting started with such thing.
The other facet that you're overlooking is the fact that learning new concepts along the way to solve each challenging steps toward the bigger goal are actually hits.
icy berry
I work that amount on some occasions, and i get paid massages and treatments if i want.
rare sand
I get paid money, personally.
working 80 hours and then getting paid in massages sounds like a raw deal, man. :P
fluid matrix
@elfin phoenix
Aim for the stars, so if you miss you would have at least reached the sky along the way!
But if from the get-go you're not aiming further than the ceiling of your house, well.... guess the rest!
and this is not only about programming, this applies to everything in life
indigo sleet
yeah okay, that's all very uplifting
is it practical?
Life is no fortune cookie, and while I agree that it's good to aim high, if you aim too high you'll just end up disappointed
You have to work up to everything you do
it's not a quick process
to the regular person in my area, I look like bill gates, but that doesn't mean I'm ever gonna be anywhere near that influential
I'm just average when it comes to my industry
lofty goals can be a good motivator, and if you reach them, then you're doing amazingly well of course
but everyone needs to be prepared for the hamster wheel for a while too
fluid matrix
@indigo sleet
I guess a lot of folks, might not be aware that when you set a bigger goal, the process in itself is made of a lot of small milestones that are micro-goals that build up to the bigger goal.
indigo sleet
Right, that's true, but it's better to say that than throw fortune cookies at them :P
fluid matrix
lol
@indigo sleet some people understand better with analogies, others like you maybe understand better with a black and white statement.
indigo sleet
That's fair, but remember, we're all developers or potential developers here :P
icy berry
@rare sand i get massages during payed work time.
icy berry
no, its in the message room 😄
karmic bramble
we get that here too, around once a month recently. Super exciting
boreal vault
Makes sense, as most of people sit incorrectly, so it can ruin your back over years
Anyway, my current goal is to learn python, yesterday was a good day, I wrote code myself, after some trial and error I made it run as intended, that gave me real feel of accomplishment
icy berry
sounds great @boreal vault that is how i started. but i used Pascal
boreal vault
And what exactly you do now? Besides game dev I don’t have a clue what python is for
icy berry
I use python for server side logistics applications
boreal vault
Sounds complicated
obsidian acorn
yes, and fun
rare sand
python is really not for gamedev
@boreal vault where I work, we use it for the backend of a huge webapp that has to do with phone repair. so basically web development.
we still use HTML and CSS and JS, and about half a dozen other technologies too, but Python is a huge part of it. maybe 70-80% of my job.
so-called full stack development
vapid jay
Isnt python also used for AI
obsidian acorn
yes, it is
vapid jay
My learning python book from o reilly just arrived and it's bigger then a god dam bibble
fluid matrix
What's the book title?
obsidian acorn
you know there are a lot of them available online?
but it is up to you, I still use physical dictionaries, so I am not one to talk
however, the ones online may be more updated
vapid jay
I know i could even find a PDF of it somewere but i just want to have a physical copy
rare sand
physical books are sooo nice.
obsidian acorn
I know. I have a physical one for C as well
rare sand
pdfs have no soul.
vapid jay
I agree with lemon
rare sand
I have two shelves of physical books.
about programming
but uh
who published that book, @vapid jay?
I can't help but notice it's not one of the ones we recommend over on our website. it might still be good, I don't know it.
!site resources
inner wrenBOT
vapid jay
fluid matrix
the only downside physical books is when you're constantly traveling throughout the year, you can't bring your shelve with you.
rare sand
you don't need to travel with ten books. you bring one.
fluid matrix
and then what happens when you realize that you need the one that you left at home instead?
obsidian acorn
and also, physical books are not the most updated. since we have versions of the language coming out constantly
but the changes are minor though
halcyon turret
I like PDFs much more
or .epub format
boreal vault
also downside when you are learning to code, you still need to look at screen a lot
as you do the coding
hollow mantle
Kindles 🔥
ocean barn
As per the channel description, this channel is not for recruitment
weary gazelle
@small grotto as Inver said, our rules and the channel description both disallow recruitment posts, therefore I deleted your post
burnt tiger
@boreal vault thats what having two monitors are for! one for the ebook and the other for your ide :p
zealous pawn
anoyone looking to code a python bot for me i will pay ofc
small grotto
@weary gazelle My bad! I should've read the rule.s.
weary gazelle
@zealous pawn same story for you. this is not for recruitment.
burnt tiger
lol saw that sneaky one
zealous pawn
ah i see my bad
kind ermine
do any of you guys have side gigs for making extra income?
halcyon turret
I used to do web dev on the side
tight marsh
Yes. I'll take on contract work near to major expenditures (e.g. moving, new tech., loan repayment) so that I have a heap of filthy lucre to offset the additional costs.
hollow mantle
The dream is to make enough useful applications for a healthy passive income
lunar harness
Interviewers usually ask you to solve problems with code. Will they let you use docs if you need a reminder of something?
tawny quartz
Depends, generally no
icy berry
that is not my experience, but I have not been on many interviews so from a limited anecdotal experience.
tawny quartz
But I haven't been in a interniew that required me to even think about reaching for docs
If your grasp of the language is so weak that you can program without access to docs, then you might to avoid putting on your resume
vivid dock
It's more about concepts than stuff you need to look up
tawny quartz
Not remembering specific libraries isn't a big deal, you can usually hand wave "use datetime here" and so on and so forth
lunar harness
i see
icy berry
understanding concepts is the important thing, not syntax
vivid dock
Like, sort this array without the built in sort function
icy berry
like show how to implement a divide and conquer algorithm to this problem
and you might be asked to stop half way if they understand that you have a full grasp of that concept.
lunar harness
So interviewers only care if they see that you know what you're doing?
icy berry
well... it is all about showing what you know
you have limited time, and if the interviewer would like to know that you know more, then that is imho positive
if it is important to that you know how to implement djikstras or playfair, then you would have to do it there
tawny quartz
They are also usually hiring you to fill a specific role
icy berry
if you have a solid grasp of what is needed you will be able to show this quickly
now theres like 15 years since i implemented djikstras, so i would struggle on that, but playfair i think i could do on the top of my head in under 5 minutes
umbral valley
I don’t think we actually covered playfair in my algo class
icy berry
it's a nice cipher to work with, unsafe and not used anymore, but quite nice still
pulsar flare
@lunar harness It really depends on the country
tight marsh
I'm one of the interviewers on our company's SDE track. Just to throw in my 3 cents, most of the other interviewers and I aren't focused on language specifics unless the job solicitation explicitly states so. Usually we'll focus on algorithms and problem solving. That said, I expect candidates to use a proper language for whiteboarding so that I can simultaneously check that they know how to use their preferred language.
icy berry
that checks out imho
vapid jay
.
rare sand
@vapid jay dot?
lunar harness
thanks for the info guys :)
candid vortex
Do you guys think serverless is worth focusing more on than things like EC2
For someone learning from scratch.
I've been learning Python the past six months and I've been trying to make a backend app for my work. And I've gotten to the point where I can do everything I need to do in Python for this task and now I just need to create the framework to serve it to internal clients.
But I'm thinking Lamdba and API gateway etc is a better approach than a EC2 instance?
indigo sleet
Pretty broad question
Serverless isn't really a good fit for everything
I wouldn't recommend it for anything other than a large company that needs to scale in that way
candid vortex
Sorry I should say I'm using this as something I want to use as a showpiece for when I start looking for jobs
So I'm doing this in my own time and it's really overkill for what we need
indigo sleet
If you can learn how to use AWS, then that will help you in general
Because a lot of companies do use it
indigo sleet
Okay, well that cert will help you, most likely
AWS is still widely used
you could also look at azure and google cloud
candid vortex
I just wonder if I should just focus on one provider to start with
indigo sleet
Well, AWS is a safe choice
but note that these targets are closer to devops than software development
candid vortex
True
I'm still trying to figure out what exactly I want to do.
But the more I dive into AWS the more attractive I find it.
indigo sleet
Maybe devops is for you, then
candid vortex
The whole concept of serverless computing is fascinating to me.
indigo sleet
well, do remember that serverless is more of a concept than a reality
it's still very much backed by servers
candid vortex
Yes of course
I know vms will still always have their place. But the idea of abstracting your code from virtual machines or containers.
And using the cloud providers frameworks to manage all the services. So cool.
I guess I don't really have much ops or sysadmin experience
So the idea of being able to just abstract that all away is attractive.
For example the code I've written in Python, takes in an order number on our system, gets the details for that order, marks that order as invoiced, then uses those details to create an invoice in our accounting system, cleans it up and adds some more metadata and then emails the invoice to the client.
I can do it manually in my terminal but if I can get it to trigger with a simple API call that would be amazing.
And takes a 5 minute manual error prone yet repetitive job into a basically instantaneous perfectly accurate job.
indigo sleet
Yep, sounds like a good portfolio project
candid vortex
Automate all the things
I could make it do all orders that need to be done automatically and turn a 4 hour a week job into a 0 hour a week job but I believe manual oversight is important for some things. So more like a 4 to 1 hour a week task.
My city has lots of dev/devops job postings for seniors but nothing for juniors.
Im not sure how to break into the industry.
Are entry level roles really a networking unadvertised thing?
indigo sleet
It's tricky
Because the entry path used to be internships
But now there are some companies that are going "internships don't count"
The best thing you can do is maintain a portfolio and get your certs
If you end up running a service or community online, that should go on your CV too
candid vortex
It's interesting that University Qualifications aren't even mentioned on job postings in my city
indigo sleet
A lot of companies prefer experience over qualifications
candid vortex
It's so bizarre to see professionals roles that don't even ask for 'Relevant Diploma'
Or even unrelated ones such as a MBA
Well that's good because there's no way I can go to university for 5 years at 28 with a family :D
But once I've got what I feel is enough knowledge and experience, should I just start contacting companies even though none of them post entry level roles?
indigo sleet
Yup
You'll also find the odd company that is looking for someone that just has the balls to apply as well
candid vortex
True
I'm finding a lot of project opportunities are popping up as well
Like my in laws run a medical clinic business with crappy cloud SaaS that doesn't talk to their legacy software. And a close family friend is a lead accountant for a rapidly expanding business with 50+ tradesmen and counting who have two SaaS services that don't talk very well together.
I think I'm not going to have a shortage of projects anytime soon.
Hell long term in my current industry there are zero good software solutions to do what we do.
Even companies literally 100 times bigger than us use the same crappy SaaS.
Me thinks all the good developers serve corporate clients or big public apps? :)
Anyway time for bed. Thanks for the advice I appreciate it.
vivid dock
Would you recommend continuing a new bachelor after finishing my current one, While applying for jobs and simply drop out of it when i find a suitable job?
halcyon turret
continuing a new bachelor no, do a postgrad if you are going to do another
a bachelor is 3-4 years I wouldn't recommend starting one with the intention of dropping out
vivid dock
I'm a bit unsure how it works here, if i can continue to study subjects after i get my bachelor or not, if i can then it's all good
but non the less
real python
I would check with the university to see if they’ll allow you to carry over the basic requirements from another degree
halcyon turret
why not go for a postgrad ?
vivid dock
Your words confuse me
As in ive never heard the term postgrad
But get the concept, just unsure if it's a thing I can do
real python
Well it doesn’t really make sense here because you didn’t do grad school
umbral valley
^
real python
But the question becomes, why not grad school
umbral valley
Nothing wrong with getting a second bachelors but it’s probably more lucrative to specialize in a masters / PhD
real python
Or, better question, what is the goal
indigo sleet
Grad school doesn't exist outside of America, iirc
When you've done a bachelors, you can continue on to do a masters
real python
I don’t understand the difference
halcyon turret
in UK the same university offers bachelor and postgrad
vivid dock
I can get a masters, or higher if i continue with this subject afaik. But i dont feel like it's something I want to reach for
indigo sleet
Well what subject is it?
halcyon turret
@real python you bachelors is your first degree, taking 3 years
vivid dock
Information science with subjects from Web design, and software security
umbral valley
You can often even get a masters in a related field
halcyon turret
postgrad takes another 1-2 years and is more advanced
indigo sleet
Why not get a cert in a language after?
halcyon turret
and only people who have finished bachelors may go on to the masters
real python
Yes, I know what the difference is between a bachelors and masters/doctorate
indigo sleet
You can do that part-time
real python
I don’t understand what distinguishes that track in the US and other countries
vivid dock
It's the same thing here, from how i understand it
real python
They’re not separate institutions here either (mostly)
vivid dock
You just do stuff, get a bachelor, if you get high enough grades, you continue to do the same stuff
and masters
halcyon turret
Many universities award graduate degrees; a graduate school is not necessarily a separate institution. While the term "graduate school" is typical in the United States and often used elsewhere (e.g. Canada), "postgraduate education" is also used in English-speaking countries (Australia, Canada, Ireland, India, Bangladesh, New Zealand, Pakistan and the UK) to refer to the spectrum of education beyond a bachelor's degree. Those attending graduate schools are called "graduate students" (in both American and British English), or often in British English as "postgraduate students" and, colloquially, "postgraduates" and "postgrads". Degrees awarded to graduate students include master's degrees, doctoral degrees, and other postgraduate qualifications such as graduate certificates and professional degrees. from Wikipedia
it gets complex in UK because some unis offer a 4 year course called an "undergraduate masters"
which is kinda halfway between bachelors and masters in difficulty
general for an integrated undergraduate masters you are awarded an MSci instead of an MSc
vivid dock
I'll investigate the equivalent of postgrad though
And maybe getting a cert in python 
?
umbral valley
You could also just look at degrees in other fields unrelated to yours as a masters
My brother has a mech engineer degree and is one class away from med school for instance
vivid dock
Interesting
I could get a CS masters
As information science is just a subset of CS afaik
halcyon turret
not sure how valued language certs are
vivid dock
From how I understood it from @rare sand not very valued, but nice to pile up for showoff
umbral valley
Depends a lot on employer too
There isn’t really a standardized cert for them to show proficiency but a lot can show dedication
halcyon turret
a lot of languages don't really have standardised certs
like what is the cert for Rust, for example ?
halcyon turret
it won't harm
but you could have spent that time on either work experience or on a project for your portfolio
vivid dock
umbral valley
I should start on a portfolio but web design doesn’t interest me at all
halcyon turret
no need to do web design
python gets used for other things
stats, machine learning, making a desktop app with Qt
I don't like web design either
vivid dock
I need a host first before i can upload my portfolio 
boreal vault
you all are so educated, I wish I was not lazy in school
vivid dock
I barely managed to get past 13th year
Uni taught me to not be lazy, and actually study shit stuff
gusty stump
ik this sounds really stupid
but if i dont know any of the languages needed for an apprenticeship would they still possibly accept me?
indigo sleet
It's possible they might train you, but that's usually specified in the application details
dusk forge
show them atleast that you would be willing to learn the needed language(s). Saying that helped me a lot to get my apprenticeship. I really meant it btw
boreal vault
apprenticeship are a bit of a scam
they can pay you half minimal wage
at least in UK
molten spoke
I can see where you are coming from yeah, but you do learn the skills on a real job from real people
main thicket
@indigo sleet grad school refers to your master's or PhD
indigo sleet
Someone posted a thing, yeah
main thicket
@halcyon turret MSci vs MSc is usually a naming difference between universities. Cambridge calls it SB and all. The difference is usually like ME in engineering (undergraduate master's) vs MSc or MEngSci in engineering
UK's system is a bit weird tbh
boreal vault
@molten spoke if it is really good profession than it may be worth it if you can afford living from that
gusty stump
the apprenticeship id be doing is a degree apprenticeship so i assume they dont expect alot other than grades
molten spoke
What subjects did you study?
gusty stump
currently doing maths economics and computer science
molten spoke
If you got maths and/or computer science then for a degree apprenticeship I think that should be alright
If they are saying you will use something though, no harm in looking at that thing and doing a spending a couple weekends studying it
gusty stump
yea it is very vague other than saying using an iOS app and Amazon web services
but ill probably look into the amazon web services before
sterile coral
quick question all. I was at a wedding this weekend and was talking to a guy. He said he was in IT and we started talking programming languages. When he heard I program in Python, he said that his company is looking for Python devs. Now, I dabble in Python and use it for apps for myself, so I am no pro in it.
That all being said, what area in Python (libraries etc) should I look at if I were to go talk to this guy to even maybe give myself a chance if I were to apply?
real python
Why don't you ask the guy?
It would be a good way to a.) Show you're interested in what they do b.) Figure out what exactly they do c.) Get answers to your questions
sterile coral
True. Very true.
I am in the process of setting up my dream position at work now. If that falls through, I am very tempted to switch companies/industries
gusty stump
Is experience better or uni you went to? I can either go to a good uni or a bit of a crap uni but work with a large tech firm a couple days a week
vast root
Have you looked into sandwich year (assuming your in the uk?) where there’s a year in the industry for experience, and the rest is in uni getting a degree?
fluid matrix
@gusty stump you might want to choose experience if the firm is quite well established in the industry !
gusty stump
Thank you 😃 I have looked into a sandwich course and if i go to uni i defo will do one
karmic bramble
I thought this is relevant enough to put it here 😉 https://www.commitstrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Strip-CYB-Candidat-jamais-content-english-v2.jpg
undone helm
GO<3
tawny quartz
Python ❤
fluid matrix
lol
lean stirrup
how easy is it to transition from data anayltics to something like data science or ML/AI?
solemn valley
I am no matter expert but ML and AI are mostly about analyzing data from what i am reading
halcyon turret
to be really good in data science you are gonna need to know a lot of statistics
indigo sleet
you know, @tame wyvern
when your message gets removed automatically
there's probably a good reason for it
tame wyvern
Okay , i am sorry if I violated any rules @indigo sleet
main thicket
pure linalg and statistics knowledge are good to have. lots of calc if you want more deep learning stuff @lean stirrup
Idk what a data analytics role involves
So i cant say how easy it is to answer that
Honestly, it's not as much statistics as it is probability theory
But if you use probability/statistics on a daily basis, have some linalg knowledge and have done up til multivariate calc in the past, it shouldnt be super hard to start off with most of data science
tame wyvern
Does anyone have a crypter ?
vapid jay
yikes
tame wyvern
You can help me @vapid jay
vapid jay
what do you need a crypter for lol
tame wyvern
You can help me with pls @vapid jay
main thicket
!kick @tame wyvern Trying to spam own invite links, trying to get help with hiding malware
inner wrenBOT
:ok_hand: kicked @tame wyvern (Trying to spam own invite links, trying to get help with hiding malware).
tawny quartz
lunar harness
i think "Rags" is better than "Raggy"
main thicket
@lunar harness yeah but I just bought http://rag.gy and I want to be consistent
icy berry
what is STEM
icy berry
STEM is a growing server dedicated to discussion and education pertaining to subjects within the fields of science, technology, engineering, and mathematics. We aim to provide our members with an engaged, friendly community consisting of members with education levels from high school to graduate, and backgrounds from independent study to industry and research. We hope to see you soon!
yes. i agree.
maybe i should make a personal site as well..
oh.. need to make some time.. or just use WP and make it fast
maybe a personal site and or blog will boost my future career.
vapid jay
From what I’ve seen so far personal sites don’t have a lot of bearing on anything
An active GitHub is better than a random website
Although blogging and social media presence could potentially get you connections in tech
boreal vault
who reads blogs?
molten spoke
I do
queen girder
how does said person get a job?
halcyon turret
TBH blogging is not the most efficient way to get connections
boreal vault
how do people find blogs?
ocean barn
I made my way through education and getting an internship. The internship gave me the experience to create an attractive linkedin profile which gave me a decent paying job.
vivid dock
How does one create an attractive linkedin profile 
ocean barn
people find blogs by searching for things they need to help figuring out
floppy, by doing big projects and write about the results of said projects
or generally list accomplishments in your roles
oh and use all the keywords
if you know sql? write it, docker? write it! etc
vivid dock
Oh right, the internship gave you stuff to write about then?
ocean barn
yep
vivid dock
I believe my linkedin has the stuff i know in my description. But that's about it
ocean barn
I also write a short spiel about how I'm a teamplayer and let my enthusiasm for my job show. It sounds like crap but recruiters respond well to it!
vapid jay
LinkedIn is all about bloat lol
Make yourself look like a baller
Cuz mostly recruiters are looking at LinkedIn
Don’t lie tho
vivid dock
"Creator of googles scratch back-end"
halcyon turret
just fill your github with scratch projects to scare off all recruiters 😄
main thicket
Personal websites, Linkedin, blogs, etc all contribute to giving you an online presence which is good when someoen (hopefully recruiter) is stalking you
vapid jay
yeah, but lets be honest
recruiters that aren't headhunting are just grasping at straws
if you're being headhunted it's because the recruiter knows exactly what theyre looking for
halcyon turret
order of importance probably goes:
- Github
- Popular Blog
- Personal Website
vapid jay
id say its better to have an online presence so if youre looking for a job then the people you might end up in a room with might recognize you
or you might be able to relate to them
yeah, github and linkedin could go either way
depends how corporate the place is
and how much personality matters
i would probably go linkedin over github for myself personally... i value the person more than the code
on some level
halcyon turret
if it is not so corporate then maybe github over linkedin i guess
graceful coyote
Going from a uni engineering degree wanting to go into python programming. I think I'm good at learning programming. I've done a bit of python and worked a lot with MatLab. Any suggestions as to how to make myself more appealing to a Python Employer? Any suggestions as to what sort of business to join?
kind jetty
I'm a stereotypical hates people coder so ive never networked
graceful coyote
Like I hear Finance is a pretty shitty place to go, Pay is good but bosses are impossible assholes.
kind jetty
@graceful coyote tbh just experiment and get good at a wide variety of things
If you're a jack of all trades you can get into most stacks and the sorts
For python particularly
Id learn databases, data processing and visualization, and make scientific contacts
graceful coyote
Working with Spyder?
kind jetty
Possibly
Python is used a lot in scientific fields so that i assume is a goldmine
@graceful coyote once you know enough to contribute effectively to open source projects
Do that too
That gets you noticed
graceful coyote
Hmm, I should probably start contributing to Open Source when I fully finish with this degree...
mint halo
there is also a lot of job opportunities in varies types of data related jobs... geological data is hot rn for example
graceful coyote
Thanks for the advice!
mild zenith
What?
obsidian acorn
what's your question @vapid jay ?
vapid jay
Question for anyone who has been around a hiring process either as a hiring-decider/interviewer or an interviewee, or anyone really, but those specifically:
For junior/lower level employees whose purpose to the company is more "grow and hopefully prosper within" rather than "we need someone to do x NOW" would you look more at the person's aptitude to learn, capability of research, and personality in comparison to their actual immediate skillset? I was having this convo with someone the other day who said that if someone can't answer a basic set of programming questions then they won't be considered for a junior position. Personally I think that's stupid because people can get nervous, forget things when on the spot, etc. They also said they take away the ability to Google which is a critical part of development imo. Personally I'd value the aptitude to learn, personality (if they fit the team), and how they research problems, at least for those lower level positions or non-specialized positions
real python
A good interviewer should be able to differentiate between someone who has no idea what they're doing and someone who's just nervous and needs a bit of a nudge. Most (non-domain specific) questions should be able to be reasoned through using fundamentals without needing to research. In an ideal world I agree with you that they'd have the resources available that they would in the work environment but it's not practical to do in an interview setting. There's also the practicality of managing a large pool of candidates, you have to discriminate somehow, and if there are two equally qualified candidates and one borked the interview then it's more risky to pick that person over the other
vapid jay
Yeah, fair enough. As a super nervous interviewee who has seemed to almost always pull off the interview, I'm a little biased. I definitely think it's easy to tell if someone is talking out of their ass though.
main thicket
Depends on how basic the question is. Is the basic question about the mechanics of classes in Java? Sure, I can understand forgetting due to nervousness. Forgetting for loops???? No amount of nervousness should be able to make you forget that. It's like forgetting how to breathe
halcyon turret
ye a little syntax error is fine if you get the core of the answer correct
vapid jay
yeah fair enough
vapid jay
mMMM
vapid jay
think I fell asleep on my keyboard, sorry bout that
pure quarry
I am looking for work as a Data Engineer, I have a keen interest in (and some experience with) ML. I would like to attend a conference before the end of the year where I can network with people in this field. Can anyone suggest such a conference? My first idea is the upcoming PyData conference in NYC -- any comments about that one in particular? Thanks in advance for any responses.
vapid jay
Not a conference but meetup.com probably has a lot of big data topic meet ups
Big data/ML
They do around me at least
hearty forum
Not sure if this is best place to ask...so i'll do it anywho.
I come from 8 years of IT experience and have been officially developing for 2 years professionally. I'm self taught.
My current job uses mostly VB and some C#
However new job im trying to get uses python (first actual obj oriented language i learned)
I want to make a web app that lets you put in guitartabs and change the key.
I'm not sure if i should do it in C# or python.
vapid jay
not the channel
hearty forum
will try the off topics then i suppose
vapid jay
anyone around
vivid dock
Always people around.
vapid jay
lol
warm leaf
Heyo
boreal vault
a bit off topic, but do Australians celebrate Christmas in summer? Do you have different months, or your summer is on Dec, Jan?
wanton holly
@candid vortex you should just ask your question c:
indigo elm
my profile pic @boreal vault 😄
warm leaf
@boreal vault our Christmas is the same time as everyone elses xD it's just super hot instead of snowing...
candid vortex
We don't actually have christmas we have dropbear day instead.
warm leaf
^
candid vortex
I'm just curious about the Australian career scene
candid vortex
I'm self learning about python, AWS serveless, CI/CD, etc.
deep portal
crazy overpriced housing
candid vortex
I'm Australian, I'm not considering moving there
deep portal
they didnt have a recession in 2008, now it's gonna suck big time when they see it
prob gonna throw the rest of the economy in that chaos
where you live if i may ask
candid vortex
Perth
candid vortex
I never said I wasn't
candid vortex
What?
Anyways my question is, is the software developer scene in Australia optimistic
Seems to be a lot of senior job postings on Seek.com but is it hard to get a foot in the door.
deep portal
in America it's still pretty fucking tough to land a good job despite very good economy
which is strange but w/e
vapid jay
I don't think it's that tough
I think people are bad about advertising themselves
And want more than what's being offered to them
tawny quartz
You have to spend the time looking and have marketable skills
If you do the former and have the latter you'll do fine here
scarlet plover
main thicket
@vapid jay What about the scene here?
vapid jay
huh?
main thicket
Job scene in Australia
vapid jay
no clue im american
main thicket
Oh whoops, tagged wrong person
vapid jay
:p
main thicket
@candid vortex
Sydney has lots of big companies, Melbourne has a few too. Both have lots of jobs. Brisbane has a big startup culture due to RCL and the Precinct. Lots of people get offered jobs in Sydney and move there also. I also know a bunch of people who go overseas since E3 visa makes it easy to go to the US. People tend to hire juniors in a more direct way (outreach at events, through uni societies, etc). There is a bit of a shortage of senior engineers in every field including software
I couldn't tell you about Perth or Adelaide but they're smaller places with less development compared to Syd/Bris/Melb so fewer jobs naturally.
candid vortex
Cheers that helps @main thicket
So do you think meetups and events are very worthwhile going to
main thicket
Absolutely. I got my job from a hackathon
candid vortex
I think so
tranquil isle
candid vortex
I don't think there's any linked competitors here
vivid dock
This is the wrong channel for this, but please don't use youtube tutorials for discord.py. 90% of them are horrible
~oh they left
olive sorrel
Actually 1 tutorial series was good from a beginner's point of view
quasi lark
So I want to like stop working in offices/or as a member who belong in company
And what I'm doing atm as job is developing web service in django
Is there a possibility to get a job as freelancer after half a year of doing this(and also have myself some website)
dreamy flare
Sorry, that was needlessly pedantic
But I mean how long you've been doing something doesn't really factor in much
It's about what you can do and what you can show for
If you want to freelance ideally you'll want to have some projects in your portfolio that you can show potential clients
quasi lark
Hm
dreamy flare
Because for what it's worth how long you've been doing something is just an anecdote, you can easily lie about that, but it's harder to lie about your skills and what you can show for them
quasi lark
ATM I'm working in security sort of stuff so that is not something I can put on portfolio
guess I gotta make somethin really fast
boreal vault
What specific field has highest demand of freelancers?
fluid matrix
@boreal vault probably web dev
boreal vault
what specifically? Or you have to make entire website?
fluid matrix
not necessarily the entire website, you can specialize in backend web dev
Learn flask and Django framework,
fiery pond
is it true that to work with Django you actually don't have to know much Python? I consider myself not-a-beginner anymore, but not good enough to get a job because I need a portfolio. If I want to become a Django developer should I focus on Django and backend web dev in general or try to practise Python more first? Thanks
fluid matrix
how can you understand Django if you don't have a good understanding of Python?
solemn valley
django is a python framework it doesnt really make sense learning django without python
halcyon turret
python first, Django later
fiery pond
I mean, should I leave Django for now and start with something like a simple web scraper to practise it first?
jaunty steppe
Make sure you don't scrape sites that don't allow it
wanton holly
there'll probably be some explicit statement in their ToS about bots, spiders, scrapers or other means of automated access to their content
fluid matrix
@fiery pond additionally, practice on the fundamentals: https://codesignal.com/
fiery pond
ok. I have read Automate the Boring Stuff and Python Crash Course. From the latter the first part, from projects I tried the first one - Pygame which I found kinda boring and the third - Django, which I liked. Now I was doing some exercises in Checkio, so far 20 solved exercises. Now I'm doing Django's official tutorial, but as I said maybe it's too soon... in the meanwhile I also study GIT (pretty easy) and I started another book for advanced Python - Fluent Python.
mint halo
GIT (pretty easy)
halcyon turret
try flask, numpy, matplotlib maybe
fiery pond
one says, be good at Python and you will get the hang of the rest later
but the others talk about GIT, Django, databases, tests, etc.
solemn valley
(git is not all uppercase btw)
fluid matrix
@fiery pond Learning how to learn is as much important as what you're trying to learn. the way you just described your process, unless you improve it, it will take you quite a long time to get there!
fiery pond
I'm not the best student, that's true
I will stick with Python for longer and try some personal project then
jaunty steppe
You could try and use git for your next project to grasp the basics of it
fiery pond
yes, I have some repositories on github already, but so far they are just projects from tutorials or exercises I solved.
fluid matrix
First step: learn python fundamentals
Second step: test your knowledge by practicing problem-solving ( see the website link that I posted previously in this chat) this is a very important step because you will quickly notice gaps in your knowledge that you will need to improve on.
Third step: learn Django
fiery pond
Yeah, I will definitelly try that website you sent, I have already noticed my gaps while doing checkio and yes, it was very usefull for me. Thanks
halcyon turret
👍
fiery pond
By the way, is there any specific moment I could say I know enough to start with Django using that page or it's just from how confident I feel in problem-solving using Python?
fluid matrix
It better that he learns Django before Flask, he will learn a lot about how to structure a project properly
@fiery pond ```By the way, is there any specific moment I could say I know enough to start with Django using that page or it's just from how confident I feel in problem-solving using Python?
First thing first, you are probably noticing right now that when you open a Django project folder, you are having a hard time to understand why things are working the way they do, let alone being able to fix bugs whenever there are some.
That's because of knowledge gaps you have now in python fundamentals.
When you have learned enough, while moving to Django you will start noticing that Django development principles will naturally start making sense.Yes, I haven't been able to decide for a long time already if it's better keep reading books, doing tutorials, learning the "pythobic" way and code clean or rather just jump in and try to figure it out from the knowledge I have now and hours of looking for the answers in stackoverflow.com. Simply to make it work with often messy code but without asking anyone what to do. To do it this way, making it work without directly asking anyone is very rewarding and exciting. The only thing I miss afterwards is someone who would tell me what to do better for the next time.
*pythonic
halcyon turret
I prefer books plus youtube
fluid matrix
@fiery pond What you need now is practicing! and I mean A LOT of problem-solving practice!
learning by necessity is how the human brain learns fast! simply reading books and watching tutorials without your search being motivated by a specific coding challenge you're actively trying to solve, it's quite not as efficient.
Secondly, before moving any further in your journey, it's VERY important for you to get the following book "Think like a programmer ( by V. Anton Spraul )".
Last but not least, apply for an unpaid python internship job.
If you follow this steps and really put in the work, I can guarantee you that you will be job ready in less than 4 months.
fiery pond
yes, I have actually tried already to apply for an internship/job. I had one interview in person and it was strange because I thought I answered correctly and later after it I could confirm my answers as correct but the interviewer after every answer said something like "yes, you are correct, but what else?". They didn't consider me, off course, but I wanted to try. And the second "interview" was done just through email communication... They wanted either to see some portfolio on GitHub or to send them my solution to these first 20 exercises in the Checkio game and approx. time each exercises took me. They said that the code was "ok" that it was not clean, but that I could learn with them, how to make it cleaner, but he said I also must know databases to work with them. I live in Madrid and I was kinda trying if it's possible to have some an intership in Prague, to see the real situation and my conclucisons are that in Prague, I would manage in some months. In Madrid it will be more difficult, but let's see.
thanks for the book recommendation!!
and I totally see the problem... when I was asked to solve the 20 problems in Python I was willing to spend the whole weekend on it and I was proud of myself when I finished... This is what I am missing, I want to be good, but I lack the motivation or competition. I would love to see how others work with Python in person and get the better idea.
fluid matrix
well, keep applying and going to as MANY interviews in the meantime (even if you have the feeling that you're not presently ready)
There are Two reasons why you should keep doing that!
First reason: not only you will learn from your mistakes and bring that knowledge to your next interview, your mind will learn to become more and more desensitized to interviews stress. in other words, you will get used to being interviewed. Most people aren't that's why they perform poorly in interviews.
Secondly: most of the time, when given a coding challenge to solve in an interview, the interviewer is more interested in seeing your thinking process on how you are attempting to solve the coding challenge than he is in simply seeing you providing the final solution.
This is why some developers get hired regardless of not completing the given coding challenge in time.
But guess what? you will never have this chance if you don't make yourself available for these opportunities in the first place!
halcyon turret
interviews are the best practice for interviews
and ye it gives you an extra chance to try coding challenges or numerical tests or whatever test they have
fiery pond
Yes, very true. The interviewer actually asked me first to solve an imaginary problem in real life, not related to any programming language and I failed I think. I told him one solution and when I tried to tell him another, he said it was approaching it still the same way. Well It was not only a first interview in this field for me but in general a first in avery long time, so I was obviously very nervous. I was used to getting a job through friends before.
fiery pond
Do I need to learn C++ syntax to be able to comprehend the book?
fluid matrix
not really, you can apply the same things in python
I mean you can use python to replicate whatever he's doing using C++, and even by doing that alone you will learn a lot too .
fiery pond
OK, thanks for advice. I'm on it 😃 Glad I found this place.
vapid jay
@fiery pond i've been working with django for a few weeks and it is a struggle not knowing the underlying python
frigid orbit
What would I need to get a job coding in python?
rare sand
mostly luck. the jobs are not common. realistically, you might need to learn a number of other technologies to compliment your python knowledge, as a job where all you do is code in python is nearly impossible to find. more likely you'll be working in DevOps or as a data scientist, or as a full stack developer, or with machine learning.
and for all of these, there'll be a slew of other things to learn.
I work as a full stack developer, and I need to know html, css, javascript, jquery, databases, linux operating systems, specific tech used by my company like xslt .. and it helps to have a good eye for design and understand UX.
but 75% of the job is python
ocean barn
it also helps to have proof of your python abilities by having written or contributed to projects on github, gitlab, bitbucket etc.
rare sand
and the aptitude to withstand a technical interview, or a test. or both.
frigid orbit
it's been a hwile since i touched html and css...
i know mysql... but never touched mongodb
my javascript probably isn't as good as my c++ or python.
i've never touched jquery
rare sand
yes, and a lot of jobs use loots of legacy tools and 15 year old code.
our codebase is mostly legacy. :P
not everyone is on the cutting edge.
also, jquery is still useful and has almost nothing in common with react or vue, so what you said is a little misleading. it's true that most modern stacks use SPAs and that you might have used jquery in the past to create a sort of hacked together SPA (which is gross), but jquery is really lightweight and still very useful if you just need to sprinkle a little bit of reactivity into your website.
we use a tiny bit of jquery on pydis.com, for example.
halcyon turret
I was mostly comparing it to React/Vue cos both manipulate the DOM
frigid orbit
okay.
I guess i should go towards one goal. like mobile app developer or... whatnot
then work towards full stack
halcyon turret
would recommend learning web dev before mobile
web dev in browser is easier than mobile IMO
frigid orbit
kk.
Thank you. I don't have much interest in web development as much as applications... but i guess it has to be done.
kindred basin
@halcyon turret I learned mobile development way before learning web dev. TBH i still dont get web dev at all and I've now dev a few web apps.
halcyon turret
what language do you use for your apps ?
kindred basin
I prefer mobile development but, depending on what you want to develop for it may be easier/harder
fiery pond
@vapid jay I think I could handle to create some small project with Django already but the thing is that I want to be more confident in python itself and as was said before in problem solving in general. I haven't even tried object oriented programing in python on my own, just following tutorials. I haven't worked with generators yet and similar advanced stuff in python.
kindred basin
I use node.js, reach & electron for my webapps, however this is mostly becuase the stack at work is all nodejs. I'd prefer django for web.
As far as mobile goes,
vapid jay
Isn’t electron for desktop apps
kindred basin
My first programing language was objective c and I did a bit of ios dev from that
electron is for desktop apps but, it's like building a webapp
vapid jay
True
kindred basin
then i got an internship doing android dev so I learned java
halcyon turret
okay yeah
fiery pond
Guys, do you know how to look for local python workshops where I could do networking and talk with other pythonistas? I'm from Madrid, there are PyLadies workshops but it seems imposible to attend besides the fact it's meant to be for women only. On meetup. com there is nothing much and Madrid is huuuuge.
velvet cave
Do you guys think the PCAP or PCPP certifications are valuable to have for your career?
im just not sure if it has the same influence/fame as say, the accounting certificates you can get such as the CIA, CPA, CMA.
tight marsh
Doubtful, CPA is a license to practice accounting and is recognized by the government. I think it's safe to say no one holds software engineers to that level of scrutiny. As for the value, I suspect you'll get conflicting answers. Personally, I don't hold any software engineering certifications in a particularly high regard. They're nice if you don't have any experience or formal education but I couldn't name a single cert. and I've worked as an engineer for 17 years. Which could just mean I'm a trash engineer. 😃
velvet cave
Thanks for the input jerdak, it's good to know that it's not extremely necessary :)
royal temple
I would go in the same direction. It can help to distinguish you from the others if you're just starting out. If you have experience to back you up, I dont think certifications are extremely valuable for a career. Of course there is exception, some employers (mostly gov related I guess) might have different internal policies.
velvet cave
I plan to get a masters of accounting and an accounting certification but I plan to learn python by myself. I'll prob get the certificate if I don't manage to get accumulate any work experience for python in my accounting jobs lol
radiant burrow
Hi friends...
My name is Imply and I've been learning Python using the book Python Crash Course
I'm interested in taking Computer Science at a university but my ACT scored were low, but my high school GPA was 4.0 throughout. I'm afraid that I wont be able to get into a good university based on this and that, even if I do, I won't do well enough to be able to get a job good enough to pay off the student loans that I'll get while in university
Is it normal to feel this way? Should I even be worried? Can anyone give advice on this?
vapid jay
move to Europe
gusty stump
agreed
umbral valley
University choice doesn’t matter that much honestly. Don’t even sweat about it
main thicket
Can also take SATs or take ACT again
umbral valley
Most state schools have a range of like 20-29 (25th/75th) for acceptance which is reasonable, also with the 4.0 considered you'll get in to whatever, probably not MIT / CalTech / etc, but shouldn't be a problem. Additionally, a "good university" is what you make of it, as long as it's not like UofP or any of the other online degree mills. Most employers don't really care where you went to school, even less after you're 1-2 jobs in, as long as you have the knowledge.
real python
I would apply to the schools you want to go to anyway. Worst case is they’ll say no. Another fairly common option is to take some of the basic prerequisites at a local state/community college and apply to schools from there.
vapid jay
A good resume/portfolio matters more than degree in CS i'd say
amber vessel
I agree with that
vapid jay
Having professional experience is better than just personal projects though. Recruiters/hiring managers like to see that you've been able to work on teams before and have real professional references.
Because it's your resume that gets you the interview, and then you just have to prove your personality, skillset, etc. in the interview itself
late echo
are there any good python certifications to boost resume weightage?
viscid vapor
favourable certs would probably be more generalized for programming rather than python itself
also some "mainstream" python skills might include knowing how to interface with SQL databases and knowing django or flask
although that might be different depending on what job you're aiming for
main thicket
Except in IT or Cybersecurity, certificates are generally worth nothing
Go make something that shows actual programming talent
fluid matrix
I've heard that even in cybersecurity if you're good enough to find system vulnerabilities in the company you want to be hired by, you can still land the job even without certificates.
halcyon turret
in cybersecurity you can go after public bounties for finding vulnerabilities
even the US government offers bug bounties https://www.infosecurity-magazine.com/news/rsac-us-government-bug-bounty/
if you were good enough you could in fact just live off bug bounties
late echo
actual code showcase is always an added advantage
but many a times certifications are responsible for initial filtering
of course it depends upon company to company, how do they look for candidates
fluid matrix
as crazy as it might sound, Big cybersecurity firms will rather hire instead of sending to jail a hacker that breaks into the company toughest security layer.
late echo
true
vapid jay
But don't take it as an advice to get a job.
If you would try to hack something and fail. They would probably catch you and put you in jail.
So chances are 50/50.
viscid vapor
I've personally never heard of people getting charged or even convicted for failed hacking attenpts
jaunty steppe
Big cybersecurity firms will rather hire instead of sending to jail a hacker
Citation needed
why would a cybersecurity firm want anyone who has been known to disregard the law
karmic bramble
it surely proves knowledge and talent
but on the other hand, yes, possibly demonstrates lack of moral and integrity
although that's really hard to define in "hacking"
fluid matrix
@jaunty steppe as I said, as crazy as it might sound to the common public, that's actually frequent in the cybersecurity industry
jaunty steppe
Bug bountys and illegal hacking is unrelated
fluid matrix
Google names like Jeff Moss or Kevin Poulsen
fresh osprey
someone is working here as a python developer (remote)?
where I can upload my cv to find a remote non-us position?
recommendations?
I'm too lazy to search for job opportunities, I prefer to upload my resume to somewhere and wait for offer)
real python
“I’m too lazy to do work” probably isn’t the best attitude to put forward
wanton holly
can confirm
molten spoke
@fresh osprey We don't facilitate job adverts or people advertising their own services I'm afraid. If you are looking for a job, your best bet is to look on various job sites for developers (https://jobs.github.com etc.) and see what is hiring
fresh osprey
I'm just looking for a site where I can upload my resume, nothing more)
alright, going to search for some job opportunity, heh)
karmic bramble
StackOverflow also lets you publish a CV-kinda thing (they call it Developer Story IIRC)
tight marsh
Is there a minimum on # of words? I just want to make sure * Hits it with sticks until magic isn't too short of a story.
Also maybe a teachable moment to other young engineers stumbling on this chat?; Put forth more effort than "prefer to upload my resume to somewhere and wait for offer". Unless your last job reads Amazon, Google, Facebook. Then yeah, sit back and wait for offers. But those are coming in unsolicited anyways. Full stop, be eager.
vapid jay
unsolicited recruiter emails/mails come on linkedin/indeed.com regardless of where your last job was, as long as you had a last job or current job
jaunty steppe
from the day I put on my linked in that I started a programming bacheler the recruiter spam started to come
asking me to come work for them in 4 years time
tight marsh
Fine, maybe I should have qualified by saying "good unsolicited emails". I'm not counting trash from robo-recruiters, I'm more talking targeted head hunting that emails you directly, directly speaks to pieces in your resume, and fast tracks you to a development manager. My point stands, don't a lazy engineer.
vapid jay
i got hired by my current company from an in house recruiter after working for a no name web dev company for 11 months
my company has a pretty high global outreach, 1k employees
you dont have to work for a FAANG company to get good recruiters
but i would definitely ignore 99% of third party recruiters, they will waste your time 😃
fresh osprey
thank you all for your advices, all comments was helpful for me
it's easy to find a job in my country
but I want to try to find a remote and worlwide job opportunity) This sounds interesting
tight marsh
I'm not precluding non-FAANG. I was trying to make a quick tongue-in-cheek point about being too lazy to search for jobs. Not trying to open a dialog about the state of unsolicited recruitment. How about this, I'll scratch everything after I said "Put forth more effort than "prefer to upload my resume to somewhere and wait for offer""
vapid jay
Sure, I just didn’t want to discourage working for non giants
I know you didn’t and your post didn’t though 
split mirage
If I were to major in InfoSystems, but have a catalog of coding projects I've made, AND had some decent certs, that'd make for a pretty sexy resume right
Make me viable for programming or sysadmin stuff?
main thicket
Should, yes
halcyon turret
yes sounds gud
sudden trench
it's normal to feel lost career wise right?
rare sand
yes.
sudden trench
cool
sudden trench
also I can finish my bachelor's at the college I work at in four years and for free, but the only field they have that I'm interested in is IT, no Computer Science sadly. I mean of course it's worth it since it's free, I just wish I could go back to the college I did my freshman year at
worthy sigil
Isn't that just the name and you can select whatever modules for that
fluid matrix
@sudden trench Just because something is free it doesn't necessarily mean choosing it is the best decision.
if what you really want is CS and not IT, then focus on CS. Life is too short to invest time to things you're not really 100% committed to.
if you can't afford college for CS now, you can go the self-taught road and then kick start your career with an unpaid internship.
if you really put the work in, you will be job ready in less than a year for sure.
vapid jay
You can realistically make yourself good enough at programming to get hired a year when you initially know nothing before hand?
dreamy flare
realistically is very much relative
not everyone learns at the same pace/has the same motivation
1 year is probably not enough for most people
vapid jay
I see cause im still learning programming and it's been over a year and im still terrible
I know there are others
That can do
what I cant
At least not yet 🤔
dreamy flare
as I said, everyone learns at different paces, some people also have more time to devote to it, no one is the same
so don't feel crappy if some people are more proficient than you
it doesn't mean anything about you as a person
It doesn't say anything about your potential, really.
vapid jay
Thank you Zhawn. I mean I try not to focus on that fact too much and do what I can. I have made some things but I know that I'd do better to work outside of my comfort zone. It's why Im pushing my focus towards pygame so I can make something decent and that I can be proud of.
dreamy flare
There you go. That's the right attitude to have. 
vapid jay
split mirage
Most InfoSys degrees let you take Linux and/or Unix based classes right?
Or is it mostly a compsci thing
vapid jay
if it fits into your curriculum why not
sudden trench
@fluid matrix Well I work at a college, and I'm not sure when I'll be able to get a better job, and I won't be able to afford college any time soon. So I mean if it's a free degree why not. You're right, it's not what I'd like, but it's free and I'll be here for a few years anyway.
little harbor
hi all
candid vortex
Hey
Do you think ansible is a valuable skill to learn to make yourself more attractive to employers?
vapid jay
ansible is definitely a valuable skill yes
candid vortex
I'm making a jump box using ansible soley to configure it.
little harbor
ansible is awesome.
candid vortex
And maybe I'll use ansible to rebuild my media server one day
little harbor
@candid vortex Yes, ansible is great, for everything from configuring mass amounts of servers, to looping through all your network equipment in the business every sunday morning making backups.
It's a great way to make pre-templated "approved" mass management commands for your tech teams, to avoid them screwing up massive amounts of servers.
candid vortex
At the moment I'm working my way through learning aws with a heavier lean on learning serverless rather than ec2. But i still think ansible will we worthwhile.
little harbor
and a great way to collect sites/server groups in organizable ways
@candid vortex Well, you tend to have environments, production, testing, development, QA, demo, networking, local infrastructure, and more
all sorts of things to use it for
end products...
candid vortex
On a side note, I came across a library for making a heartbeat server on aws gateway/lamdba, looks very cool.
I love the idea of all your servers sending heartbeats to a central serverless function and then getting notifications when a server goes quiet.
Ill double down on ansible then. I need to not fragment my learning too much though
I'm still trying to get my head around git and then CI/CD from source repostitories.
I've learnt a lot about unix/debian/ansible, ssh, certificate authorities, key pairs, etc just by forcing myself to learn how to make a secure jump box from a raspberry pi
Nothing like getting your hands dirty with a real world application
little harbor
@candid vortex I suggest not trying to make that by yourself. (monitoring) I suggest using existing tools.
zabbix/nagios can monitor 10000s of hosts
uncut zephyr
Opinion question: how do you know when you're "good enough" at Python programming to go look for your first job in the field?
obsidian acorn
I would say once you feel comfortable in what you are doing, about to pick new things, rather quickly, then go for it
you want to have a thorough understanding of the basics, work on a few projects related to the field you want to work in,
once you feel comfortable in that, try something in the field that you are unfamiliar with, and see how long it takes you to pick it up.
and once you feel comfortable enough doing that, you should be fine.
sudden trench
nagios is great, I don't think we'd function without it at work
maybe it's not that important
but it's very useful
uncut zephyr
@obsidian acorn Without a college degree, what would be the best "entry point" into a career with Python? Some unpaid internship or something? How long did you study Python for before you felt comfortable looking for jobs in the field?
vapid jay
Imo if you had any tech jobs at all + can prove you know python to some extent you’ll be ok, friar
Entry level that is
main thicket
@uncut zephyr I'd work on projects until you get a (paid) entry level job. How long it takes to be job ready depends on the person and how quickly you learn. I'd say it took me ~1 year to get decent enough for an entry level job. I know people who've gotten one quicker and people who're still complete beginners after an year so there's a huge dependance on individual
Unpaid internships are generally a bad idea especially in software because there's already so many jobs around
uncut zephyr
I figured as much, but thank you for your input. @main thicket 😃 I suppose "I'll know when I'll know"
I don't even understand classes yet, so It'll be a bit, I'm sure. hahaha
Just curious
main thicket
It's definitely hard to know when you're ready, so my suggestion would be to keep making stuff and once you have a decent project or two and then keep applying while learning
Remember: it never hurts to apply
uncut zephyr
very true
main thicket
you either stay without the job or you get it
uncut zephyr
I'd just hate to be thought of as a "decent coder" by a company, only to be hired-on, get to the jobsite, and think "Mmmhmm, mmmhmm, these words make total sense". 😄
I suppose that's what StackOverflow and google are for though, huh? lol
main thicket
That's totally what it will be like for the first few months. But that's totally how it's like for most entry level coders including CS grads
It usually takes a few months for an employee to start becoming productive
uncut zephyr
haha that can't be said for SOME people, as they NEVER become productive, lol but I get what you're saying.
Thanks for your thoughts @main thicket I'll keep plugging along here
But I've been bitten by the coding bug hardcore this last weekend while learning: I've coded 24+ hours this weekend already. :/
uncut zephyr
Yeah I'd better not burn out, lol. But things I'm doing are WORKING, and that's a huge positive, and makes me want to keep going.
main thicket
I basically learn everything in huge marathons so spending many hours coding when learning is something I can relate to
uncut zephyr
Actually: I'd rather not stop when things AREN'T working. I'm worried about waking up in the morning, and being all "...so WHAT the hell was I doing last night?!"
...and that's why I leave comments EVERYWHERE, lol. Maybe even OVER-commenting, for now.
It's a catch-22 for me: The more things are working, the less I want to stop...but at the same time, if things AREN'T working, I don't want to quit on it, as I don't want to have to "re-remember" what I was doing the following morning...so it looks like I'm stuck in a loop. haha
Albeit a positive-feedback loop (+= knowledge is good), I have a DAYJOB that I need to go to still, and coding until 6am isn't healthy for that, or me too much. Just enjoying it too much right now, I guess. 😄
Thanks for your thoughts, and all the help I've received so far from this discord. ❤
vapid jay
@main thicket would you agree or disagree that a company is more likely to give someone an entry level position if they've had any tech job experience than a person who has a bunch of personal projects but no tech job experience
main thicket
depends on company. i know companies that would do both
some companies hold experience above everything else, some companies want someone with enough passion to succeed
vapid jay
sure, but if your projects are all personal projects with little to no collaboration, you're a little more of a liability if they're hiring you into a team, which entry level typically would be
*potential liability
main thicket
I know plenty of people who'd hire someone with no team projects. Team work isnt hard to learn but good programmers are hard to find. It's a programmer's market
frank abyss
I've never had a chance to code in a team project. All of my work has been solo, which sucks.
My internship I was left alone 100% of the time.
halcyon turret
join game jam 😄
frank abyss
No one around me was a software engineer, and I had to rely heavily on this discord for help if I ran into issues
The ONE in the office worked with C#, so I could only really bounce concepts off of him. Which is how we learned that floating points compute differently than we thought they did 😛
I'm neck deep in this semester. I can't add anything else into my life right now, or I'd totally try to jump in on that code jam
vapid jay
@frank abyss they dont have to know you were alone, but if you have a good reference from the company it's a good opportunity during that "describe a hardship" question or whatever. "I was an intern and ended up having to one-man most of the project, but I was able to do xyz"
frank abyss
That's what I have on my resume, basically
"Headed project to digitize records using OCR blah blah blah"
fluid matrix
@frank abyss so you're saying they accepted you to do the internship as a Python developer without assigning sr Python developer to mentor you?
What company will ever do that?
fluid matrix
then what you did wasn't an internship, I've never seen anything like that.
First off, every entry-level developer is seen as a potential liability to the team, no company or CTO will ever accept to bring you in if they can't provide your supervision.
it just doesn't make sense.
obsidian acorn
unless it's a small company, and can't afford it!
fluid matrix
really?
obsidian acorn
That does happen once in a while, where a project needs to be done, and someone is hired (or interned)on to do the project
frank abyss
$20/hr, full freedom
Come and go as I please, work remotely if I want
Was great, but I wasn't taught anything. I learned everything alone
obsidian acorn
Essentially, probably, if the other person did it, it would have to take time off of his schedule, and hiring someone on, even if a newbie, maybe more cost efficient
But congrats, you get paid to learn, and get a reference out of it
frank abyss
Yeah, I can imagine what they pay their salaried engineers if I was making $20/hr as an intern
frank abyss
I should have started my career a decade ago
Just now at 34 seeing the results from all this hard work
amber vessel
when did you start your career?
frank abyss
(School, learning Python on my own, working on my penetration testing skills alone)
3 years now
About to graduate in spring
CS: Security
amber vessel
nice my dude
what got you into it? did you pivot from a related career or something else?
frank abyss
Nah, I've always been heavily into IT, programming, etc. My whole life
I just decided at 30 or so that I'm done working shitty warehouse jobs for 20-25/hr hard labor
So I started college
amber vessel
thats pretty rad
frank abyss
College isn't hard, I think everyone should do it. Life is harder without it
The later you start, the harder trying to balance school, your bills, life, will be
vapid jay
Good time to get into it @frank abyss, one of my coworkers worked retail til he was 50, turning 70 soon & retiring and has more money saved up from 20 years than he did his whole time in retail
little harbor
@frank abyss College is annoying
frank abyss
I've encountered only 2 so far
Dealing with one tomorrow in a meeting with the Dean
I've been exceedingly lucky
little harbor
eh, I'm one to beat by my own drum.
frank abyss
My literature professor for instance is the coolest people I've ever met
Writes comics for DC
(Batman and others)
At my age I'm closer to the professors than the students
little harbor
I've had some great professors, but I cannot stand the slow pace, working with other students, and the random requirements imposed.
worn plaza
where can python take you
and what are the best languages to back it up
ping me when someone replies
thx!
btw i am aiming to go for a 1st degree in either computor science or somthing along those lines
but keep in mind ive only just started so i dont know of the possibilities. if where i can take this.
of*^
vapid jay
@worn plaza
With libraries like TensorFlow growing, and more generally with artificial intelligence, neuronal networks, big data, etc, raising a lot in popularity, Python is a must-have language. No matter the domain, Python will be there. At worst, you won't use it but Python will teach you Object Oriented Programming so that's not lost, at best you'll use it everyday
I would recommend learning a Functional Programming Language (Haskell for instance), and a low level language to understand what's going on (Rust because it's low level with high-level abstractions, C++ if you really have the courage)
little harbor
@worn plaza
Python, Java will land you pretty much anywhere.
Python is so maintable and easy to start that it's a huge favorite.
Java used to be the favorite, and is easy to start, but has always been extremely portable and easy implement everywhere.
Honestly, the most powerful set is probably,
Python, Java, C++
If you want to start easily, start with Python.
If you want more readily portable (between platforms, Apple, Android, Windows, Mac, Linux) , start with Java
If you want raw computational power, that works for most places, but is MUCH harder to start, C++
but those three alone could easily power the world (I think)
umbral valley
Java doesn’t run on iOS does it?
indigo sleet
Not natively
little harbor
😦
main thicket
I'd replace Java with JavaScript. Java's portability is a scam. C++ will work in all of those places.
But the web is an important domain
halcyon turret
Yep Javascript is the true portable language now
misty glade
cedar kelp
the next java JDK will still be free to use but will cost money to put in production
so it behooves android devs to pick up kotlin ASAP
not that that's relevant to a python discord
tame escarp
anyone know more info on this and how much it will cost?
tawny quartz
This is going a bit off-topic for #career-advice
Feel free to continue in any of the ot channels