although admitting you have no experience with their product seems a dodgy move
#career-advice
cunning notch
real python
or "I use it less often than I used to because {thing} frustrates me and I would love to work to make {thing} better"
spice bolt
@real python are you familiar with React?
real python
Nope
Why, are you a hiring manager at FB? If so I’d totally like to make lots of money 😬
fluid matrix
TOPIC OF CONVERSATION
How have you landed your first remote developer gig as a freelancer?
indigo sleet
Depends what you mean by remote
I did some work for a local company but I never visited their office
It was pretty much off a job ad on Facebook though
fluid matrix
@indigo sleet that's what I meant by remote
vivid dock
What would you say a media advisor.. does?
umbral valley
In what context?
vivid dock
A norwegian company I'm following has 2 new open positions as media advisors
with tasks as;
Research and exploration
New sales towards budget achievement
Doesn't tell me much about what they would do
umbral valley
Could possibly be someone who drafts press releases / research proposals / etc but honestly I’m not 100%
vivid dock
I'm just going to hope the part time position they have in mind for me, is not that then. I wanna type things 😅
rare sand
@solid bloom it is indeed the wrong channel. we don't have a good place for this yet (but we're working on it). this channel is for discussion and questions about careers in programming. for now, you'll have to use an off-topic channel.
solid bloom
No bother, I'll try there thanks.
Is there an off-topic channel on this discord, can't seem to find it?
My bad found it..
spiral kraken
Can someone explain to me why is Python used in Data Science?
I guess Data Scientists and Engineers use the language to write their own scripts / data aggregators / for machine learning
But if you're Data Analyst, you can probably just use some program / suite for data analytics (something like Adobe Datashop idk), right?
I mean, stock traders generally don't learn and use python, yet they have numerous stock market analytics software options
real python
Because "some program / suite", if it even exists, is generally very expensive since there's a limited audience
Python provides an open source method for developing said tools with a mostly friendly syntax
Not really a career discussion though
kindred ingot
Has anyone ever had a job where they literally had no tasks to work on?
I'm just starting in programming and I got hired by a small company
And the boss initially hired me with the explanation that eventually they'll find a place for me, but I've been here for 5 months and I've just had a few minor modifications to do with the existing software
frank abyss
Find your own?
I often find things that can be optimized and/or automated in other processes
and I say, "hey, I can help with this"
I was hired as an intern with one project, and I've created 3 more.
kindred ingot
This is my first job, so I don't really feel comfortable/knowledgeable enough for that
Like I got hired straight out of a bootcamp
frank abyss
This is not even my real full hire either. You've been there for months. Present your ideas if you have any
Showing initiative is important, as well.
(should say this is my first job in this field)
not ever lol
kindred ingot
Yeah, sorry I guess I thought that was implied
frank abyss
From my experiences thus far, those in this sector are willing to adapt
As opposed to any other I've ever been in
kindred ingot
Well I'm looking for another job
frank abyss
It isn't true across the board, of course; but there's no real downside for you to say you can help more than you are
kindred ingot
Well before I was literally walking around asking everyone if I can help with something
But there's really only one other programmer in the office and he never really has anything for me
I'm just terrified that I won't find a different job for a while and when I have an interview with someone I won't be able to say anything about what I did in this place
karmic bramble
Say as it is, you were hired without a specific task and you actively tried to get involved and help out, but there weren't really any challenges for you, so you're looking for new opportunities.
hollow mantle
@fluid matrix You can get a few projects off sites like Freelancer.com and UpWork, but I wouldn't use them for too long. They take a lot of the money for "protection"
It took me a couple months of applying to land my first one. Patience is key
fluid matrix
the problem with those merchant site s is that they're more geared toward the buyer than they're to those who are actually providing services
it's like offering your time and services for a wholesale price Lol
@hollow mantle I've heard that recommendation is actually the best way
ember nacelle
I'm still in my first month of applying
hollow mantle
Yeah, well I don't have a formal education so I didn't really have a choice. If you've got something to back yourself up, then you have more choices
fluid matrix
Helping out small NGO by providing benevolent services with my skill set is what I decided to do .
at least this way, until I land a good gig, it always feels good to help making the life of someone else better.
hollow mantle
LinkedIn is also a great place to get work
I got a permanent fte offer within like 3 days of creating a profile.
fluid matrix
@hollow mantle did you end up landing it? or was it just recruiters looking around?
hollow mantle
I had to decline, already working 12 hours a day haha
fluid matrix
that's good, better to be busy than to be doing nothing
hollow mantle
Yeah. A steady job is nice but I am moving to Denmark next year so I don't really want something permanent atm
main thicket
@spiral kraken 1) Finance people all do the same things to the same data that comes from the same sources. The breadth of what they do with the data can be condensed into one program. That is not true when you get data in various forms from various sources tha you analyse in different ways
2) Python (and other programming languages) are very much used in finance too. Finance people just often arent educated in programming but those companies who do automated trading and lots of data analysis do hire software engineers, mathematicians etc who can program and/or teach programming to finance people.
3) Machine learning also happens in python. Everything that happens to the data generally happens in python. It's just easier.
@kindred ingot Figure out what your company could need help with. Everyone needs help even if they dont realise it. One part of the process is too bothersome? Automate it. One of the tools you use isnt convenient enough? Fix it. Something doesnt look pretty enough? Make minor changes
dusky onyx
As a student with part-time availability to work without a degree, what kind of companies should I be looking for, having proficiency in Python and a fair degree of control in Kotlin?
main thicket
Webdev positions that use Python, maybe data science if you're decent with maths?
umbral valley
Maybe. It’s really hard though in some areas for ML without a masters
main thicket
There's plenty of places that let you do ML without anything
It's only research and RnD at bigger companies that really have that requirement
umbral valley
Around me, with the exception of my position, they’re all msc as a hard requirement
All government/contractors though so ymmv
proper flower
Hello
I am applying for an internship position at a couple companies, and they require python experience.
What level of knowledge would you expect from an intern?
solemn valley
i did an internship at an IT sec company which required perl and/or python knowledge, i didnt even need to know more than syntax
¯_(ツ)_/¯
proper flower
Thank you!
solemn valley
not sure if that applys for all companies though
proper flower
Was it a large IT company? If I aimed for a really well known company, would the expectations be the same?
also, what happened during your interview
I apologize if I am coming off weird. I am just extremely nervous.
solemn valley
they have buisness going on with the state and are active in global stuff too yes
one of their research groups recently contributed to a project with a university researching quantum resistent stuff and after that even published some rcf about it
so they are certainly not small
main thicket
@proper flower Up till basic OOP in Python is good to know
proper flower
Thanks!
silver tinsel
Anyone know anything about using outhin for data science in manufacturing? Like in an SPC aspect for machine tool monitoring?
ocean barn
I think #data-science-and-ml might be a better place to ask, unless this is about jobs in the field of data science and manufacturing?
silver tinsel
@ocean barn yes, I was asking about jobs. I don't really know if something like that exists
candid vortex
Hey guys I'm sorry if I'm asking in the wrong room but I just need someone to help me find out if my expectations are realistic.
Basically I'm 28 and working full time in a non tech role, small business, and I'm looking to change careers.
I don't know what exactly I want to get into yet, but I know it will be something tech related
I've been learning Python for the past 4 months and I've been using the APIs for the SaaS applications at my work as real world projects.
I've learnt enough to do some useful backend functions in Python, and now I'm trying to learn about CI/CD to deploy and serveless AWS to run these services .
solemn valley
#414737889352744971 is your friend and helper for that
candid vortex
The more I dive into the stuff the more I realise I like it.
I'm just trying to be pragmatic about what skills I invest my time in.
Here's an extract from a job posting in my area which I'm using as a North Star for my goals
Bring experience of building 12 factor applications
Assist teams to plan and build migration roadmaps
Support teams migrating their applications by leading, mentoring, and coaching
Demonstrate a deep understanding and a high level of experience with DevOps and CI/CD practices
Bring previous experience working in agile delivery teams (Scrum/Kanban/Lean)
Show an understanding and appreciation of the common use of TDD
Develop tools and utilities to provide short term solutions to immediate needs as required
I'm just wondering if learning these concepts and putting them into a real world application is good enough to get my foot in the door as a junior with roles like these. Without a degree.
There's so many concepts to learn I'm struggling to figure out where to start. But my plan of attack is :
Learing: Solid understanding of Python > AWS code deployment practices > API Gateway > Lamdba
I've made a big Trello board with about 40 concepts to learn on it but I won't go into the details lol
main thicket
If you know those concepts and can show you know them -> by having projects, by showing it during the interview, by contributing to open source etc., then use, it is possible to get a junior dev position
those are actually a bit high requirements for a junior position from what i've seen
candid vortex
I've been watching some courses on Coursera
But I've been skipping doing their 'Milestone Projects' and just applying what I've learnt onto my real world projects
I'm not sure if real world projects trump 'Coursera course completions' when it comes to CVs
main thicket
they do. certificates are worth close to nothing other than showing some motivation
ocean barn
@silver tinsel alright, my apologies
rare sand
that motivation might be valuable to show.
my 10+ bullshit elearning certs have been valuable to me, but yeah, not as education
just to demonstrate passion for programming
@candid vortex for the record, I was 28 and had years in bullshit IT support and admin roles when I changed careers to full time python dev
so, yeah, it's possible.
but real world projects trump almost anything
so do those
candid vortex
How much frontend work do you do?
rare sand
a little bit here and there
no more than I was able to learn on the job
I do kinda like it, though.
candid vortex
I'm not against learning fundamental front end stuff but i wouldn't want to be a full frontend dev
rare sand
but I do quite a bit of what might be considered devops work
candid vortex
I love automation, continuous improvement,
Like I was big into learning about lean manufacturing before I even knew what devops was
indigo sleet
Devops is fun
ocean barn
sure is!
indigo sleet
It's funny, I've been doing devops for.. years, and then inver came along and taught me things that meant I had to completely revise my experience
for the better, though
but that's the industry in general
candid vortex
Like everything I've been doing in my current job outside daily duties has been about optimisation, improvement of value streams physical and IT
ocean barn
you're giving me too much credit dude, you know your shit
zealous siren
I do, I do
zealous siren
Making me blush now
rare sand
well, as full stack I've written automation, monitoring systems, I manage all our version control, hacked together VPNs via sshuttle and sshfs, I've done smoe flexbox frontend stuff, written a lot of shitty javascript and jquery... but most of the time I just work on our 800k line python 2.6 backend.
zealous siren
:^)
rare sand
not exactly glamorous
indigo sleet
you know we don't put up with trolling here
zealous siren
I wouldn't exactly call that trolling but sure
rare sand
I will fire you out of a cannon and into the sun, jason.
zealous siren
Ono
rare sand
gtfo
indigo sleet
haha
candid vortex
I'm so green I never even used python 2
ocean barn
@candid vortex if devops is a thing you want explore on a fundamental level or you have question feel free to ping me in #devops whenever
rare sand
python 2 sucks, and 2.6 SUPER SUCKS
candid vortex
No I lie I was doing a coursera course last year and they changed to python 3 halfway through
indigo sleet
You're better off aoiding 2 if you can
candid vortex
@ocean barn thanks man
zealous siren
Unless you're getting paid there is no reason to not use 3
rare sand
yeah
zealous siren
And even then your company should be changing
rare sand
besides, it's fairly trivial to learn one if you know the other
there aren't THAT many fundamental differences
zealous siren
Yea
candid vortex
I'm conscientious of the fact that I should get a handle on a second language once I'm steady on Python
But I feel like Python has spoiled me.
It's really elegant
rare sand
(it probably has)
zealous siren
Try a functional language and completely spice things up
ocean barn
elixir!
candid vortex
I had to do an assignment with microcontrollers once a long time ago
And I have not remembered a single thing from that assembly language
zealous siren
That's to be expected if you're not using it often
ocean barn
alternatively, the devops world has adopted Golang as its new favorite
python is still the most favored, but go is being adopted across the board for micro service architecture
zealous siren
I could imagine go being quite good for devops tasks
rare sand
don't let people on this server catch you saying go might be good for something, they'll kill you!
:D
zealous siren
Haha no generics
rare sand
most hated language 2018
ocean barn
its super fast but its not the most elegant syntax
zealous siren
What about php
rare sand
hating php is old news
zealous siren
:(
indigo sleet
Go has its uses
ocean barn
yeah hating go is the new meme
indigo sleet
it's just that its uses are nothing I'd write
candid vortex
What about C#?
zealous siren
What's wrong with C#
candid vortex
As learning after Python
zealous siren
Oh right
rare sand
I learned C# after Python and found it quite comfortable.
for what that's worth.
although I did have some prior experience with C and C++ at that point
but I'm not sure how much it helped me
not that I'm a C# expert or anything,.. but I like the language.
indigo sleet
I'd like to learn C# but I have nothing to use it for
rare sand
well, either you make a windows app or you make unity games :P
zealous siren
Not only windows now tho
candid vortex
The gist I'm getting is that the first language is the hardest
indigo sleet
Yup
candid vortex
Just glancing at random C# snippets I kind of understand the gist of it
rare sand
it's not that the language is hardest, but when you're learning your first language you're really learning the programming paradigm that that language resides within.
rare sand
and so other languages in the same paradigm are not that complicated to learn, because you can use analogies to the language you already know.
indigo sleet
yeah, which is why learning functional languages can still be hard for a seasoned progammer
real python
could be worse, you could have learned programming from MATLAB 😃
candid vortex
Why does something need curly brackets AND indentation
I don't even know what a functional language is.
zealous siren
C# doesn't force indentation on you
candid vortex
I love indentation
I was more thinking, why does the language need curly braces while Python just needs indentation
zealous siren
Because python forces indentation to differentiate between scopes
low pebble
why does a bus look like a bus and not a car if it runs on a same based engine
candid vortex
:p
zealous siren
Whereas nearly every other language uses {} instead
candid vortex
Like I know that they do. It's just one of those things that I think Python has spoilt me on
rare sand
some would argue that curly braces are more explicit, and therefore better.
candid vortex
Really pads out that line length. Maybe Python developers don't get paid by the line as much ;)
rare sand
for example, four spaces and a tab look the same.
but python will treat them differently
zealous siren
If you were getting paid by line you wouldn't choose python :^)
candid vortex
It's okay to have preferences as long as they're the same as mine.
But back to on topic ;) have many of you yourselves or people you know changed into tech careers at my age or later
rare sand
the lead dev where I work was also self taught and worked his way up from the ground floor
started in the store selling cellphones part time, ended up as lead dev.
and one of my best friends got a job at the military where he writes quite a bit of python even though he has a completely different background.
but most of my colleagues did have formal backgrounds, comp sci or so
it's not unheard of but it's probably not the most common way there.
and it probably varies wildly from country to country.. maybe even city to city.
certainly company to company
candid vortex
I have hope as a lot of the job postings for software engineers or developers don't have degrees as requirements
I mean some of them do. But mostly the old school companies
Like the lowest paid ones as well :/
indigo sleet
It's low-effort recruiting, really
Throw a degree requirement on there and we won't have to worry so much about looking over their projects
Some jobs really do need it, though
pulsar drum
almost everything here lists a degree as a req
candid vortex
Is it an employers market there?
pulsar drum
not sure what that means
candid vortex
As in, a lot of qualified applicants for not so many positions
Generally requirements become higher when recruiters can be picky
pulsar drum
I don't know, it might be. There certainly don't seem to be that many positions available here
Not as many as I expected for a city with a population of 4 million
candid vortex
A lot of the job listings here don't even mention qualifications at all
1.6 million people
pulsar drum
I think LA is just a shitty area for programming jobs
I haven't gotten a chance to talk to any locals about their thoughts on it
cause idk anyone else here that is a programmer
I got a call from one place to which I applied
pretty much first thing that was asked is if I had a BS
said no and the call was over 15 seconds later
feels bad
candid vortex
Do you struggle to explain to friends snd family what you're trying to get into
That sucks man
pulsar drum
No I don't. Tbh I don't really talk to anyone about it cause no one shows any interest in programming
candid vortex
Do you have like projects you've worked on
pulsar drum
my parents understand though
Yeah I have a couple decent projects
not as good as I'd like
candid vortex
My family is like "So like IT?"
vivid dock
I found hanging around student areas helps get a few pointers to businesses in the area
candid vortex
I hear MeetUp is good
vivid dock
Many like to brag about their connections with this tiny company that needs people, but nobody has heard of, etc
candid vortex
The truth is other than the Silicon Valley TV show most general public don't know what a developer is.
pulsar drum
surprisingly my parents get it
fossil rain
i work at a company that bought a chromebook which means we are as big as google
candid vortex
Lol
fossil rain
i can get you a 6% discount on select vaccums
pulsar drum
@vivid dock but... being social 
vivid dock
Ikr
candid vortex
Even I didn't even know what a developer really did 10 years ago
pulsar drum
I was copy pasting Java tutorials ten years ago 😄
vivid dock
I got in touch with a few of them based on a larger group project involving surveys
so we went to the closest student cafee and asked about
candid vortex
I hated 'IT' and its why I stayed away from this career path even though I was the kid who everyone thought I would be the next Bill Gates
fossil rain
i work as a sysadmin making 170k doing nothing ama
fossil rain
if im editing someone elses code i use whatever was on the file already if not i use spaces
vivid dock
But yeah, casual areas around universities and colleges tend to be good places to ask around for lesser known positions
candid vortex
But seriously do what is your day to day like
fossil rain
i play games on my laptop for 4 hours
fossil rain
then log/document other things for 3 hours
3 years ago i wouldve been working my ass off but now everything is automated
candid vortex
I use spaces in steps of prime numbers and set my line width to 1000.
pulsar drum
@vivid dock I got bad impressions from my peers. Feels like they don't know what they're doing and are in worse positions than I am. I don't go to a school with a great co sci program. Planning on transferring though
candid vortex
I also manually manipulate magnetic bits on my hard drive
vivid dock
One guy bragged about a job he landed in an advertisement firm, which basically involved maintaining an internal site keeping track of everyones schedule
fossil rain
whats that do with advertising
fossil rain
oh ok
vivid dock
Dunno how it's like in other areas though
candid vortex
True I heard that word of mouth is king
vivid dock
That's just how I feel it is around my uni
fossil rain
i got my job cause i had a good resume
candid vortex
@pulsar drum my general advice regardless of industry unless you're in medical school or something, is network network network network network
fossil rain
only applicant who could maintain their cobol systems
vivid dock
Do feel free to share your advice for a good resume @fossil rain
vivid dock
^
pulsar drum
problem I have with it is how to come off genuine
vivid dock
You still have to go out the door, and find the correct people to interact with.. instead of programming stuff
fossil rain
- your resume is gonna be compared to hundreds of others so if you dont have anyhting special (knowing how to program in like python or bash isnt really special anymore)
you wont get the job
vivid dock
Ah, I've been meaning to look up events in my area
candid vortex
Join an unrelated non for profit volunteer group and see if any of your skills can help them
fossil rain
why dont you just apply for a job instead lol
candid vortex
"I wrote a little app that helped my local community gardening group do [useful thing] and saved them $[] ' is good in an interview
pulsar drum
cause there are slim pickings here, idk about them though
vivid dock
You can apply programming to many everyday problems tbh
pulsar drum
i just checked job listings on a site for the first time in a week or two
17 new listings in my search criteria
candid vortex
Community groups always need volunteers
vivid dock
a friend of me who works at starbucks reached out to me once for a simple interface he could use to count revenue (or w/e it was) at the end of his shift
candid vortex
And it gives you important socialisation. As well as breaks you out of the class bubble
fossil rain
wtf is a class bubble lol
candid vortex
I assume he's in some sort of tertiary education?
fossil rain
but what is a class bubble lol
candid vortex
I've seen plenty of people who do highschool, go to university, hang out with people from their class,
And never really interact with the real world
And then graduate, even with good grades, but have no real world experience
vivid dock
Then complain they can't land a high paying job out the gates
fossil rain
cause in tech NOBODY cares about education
oh i have a degree in programming pls hire me!!!
pulsar drum
false
vivid dock
I don't agree with you there
pulsar drum
you missed me saying how a recruiter called me, asked if I had a BS, I said no, she ended the call soon after
asked nothing else
first question was about my education
fossil rain
entry level jobs usually are like that
candid vortex
Solid highschool to university can produce really maladjusted people if they don't have meaningful experiences outside their class.... Bubble
fossil rain
or maybe was a shitty company
real python
I don't know how that would make them a shitty company, they have to filter people out somehow
fossil rain
every major tech company really only cares about experience for things past entry level jobs
pulsar drum
ok but how do you get that initial experience?
by having an entry level job perhaps?
vivid dock
Isn't entry jobs the subject here?
fossil rain
i got experience by volunteering
only ever had 1 paying job in my whole life and its the one im at right now believe it or not
candid vortex
Are you in school Mark?
vivid dock
Didn't you just turn down volunteering with "Why not just apply for the job"?
pulsar drum
yes
candid vortex
@vivid dock i noticed too ;)
Yeah so as I'm saying
Sounds like your peers are getting you down
fossil rain
yes because i wasted 5 years volunteering to get experience
if you can get experience and make money its obv better
candid vortex
So it's important to break out of that bubble
With face to face time. And community groups have a lot of different people in them. And they're generally friendly and open.
fossil rain
oh ok
pulsar drum
I've looked for some volunteering opportunities here and there, but didnt find anything
admittedly i didnt look super hard
candid vortex
So not only can it give you opportunities to create real world projects. You'll also get to steal wisdom from a lot of people who learnt about life the hard way
Remember humans are village/tribe people at our core.
vivid dock
That's why we have this channel 
candid vortex
Yes discords are awesome
fossil rain
i prefer mumble
candid vortex
But face to face is important too
pulsar drum
Well I have been employed before, but it was part-time and completely unrelated to programming
vivid dock
The only thing I can vouch for currently though is that connections matter
pulsar drum
long tenure though
fossil rain
@vivid dock i had no connections but make good money
candid vortex
But it's hard to build connections if you're social xp level is low
pulsar drum
yeah I got my first job through a connection
vivid dock
How is money related to having connections?
real python
Anecdotes are not data
fossil rain
i got a good job that makes good money without having connections
vivid dock
Anywho, I got a friend hired where I work solely by recommending him.
He didn't even have a resume submitted
candid vortex
@pulsar drum non related employment experience is better than no experience
candid vortex
Don't want to be one of those grads who's never worked a day in their life
fossil rain
connections are good but they arent as important as you imply they are
candid vortex
I would say they're a pathway
vivid dock
My friend would be unemployed to this date without his connection to me.
That's 2 years ago
candid vortex
Not the only pathway but a common pathway regardless
vivid dock
I'd value connections high
candid vortex
I got my current job through connections. A lot of small companies never advertise jovs
Jobs
vivid dock
^ same
fossil rain
how would you know that though? for all you know if you didnt get him hired there he wouldve bought a lottery ticket and won 100 mil
real python
lol
candid vortex
My company has never posted a vacancy in 30 years
vivid dock
Not exactly the most believable argument..
fossil rain
you said he didnt even submit his resume yet so how do you know he wouldve got denied?
vivid dock
How would he afford one without income,
and what stops him from buying one with a job?
Because he didnt submit it.
And he was not going to.
candid vortex
Recruiting for a lot of companies goes like this:
fossil rain
obviously your job isnt the only one he could get and there are soo many possible ways it coudlve gone if you didnt reccomend him
candid vortex
Hey Gary we need someone to do this do you know anyone?
candid vortex
_Yeah I know this guy , here's his number _
fossil rain
he said no sorry @candid vortex
indigo sleet
I'm not entirely convinced that @fossil rain's contributions to this conversation fall under the interests of this channel
candid vortex
gets popcorn
real python
I think it's just inexperience
fossil rain
dosent matter cause im gonna go play rimworld now anyway
real python
loud inexperience
candid vortex
I'm off to bed guys. Try not to set the world on fire while I'm gone.
indigo sleet
loud inexperience, also known as trolling :P
pulsar drum
gn
indigo sleet
o/
vivid dock
Sleep well 
real python
networking is huge
indigo sleet
yeah, networking is a big deal
real python
Not necessarily critical for the entry level, but if you ever want to move beyond it's absolutely important
candid vortex
Prove to the Gary's of the world that you're eager to learn, talented, hard working yet humble
😴
umbral valley
@vivid dock I’ve gotten both my interviews so far by recommendations. And my current internship by being the counselor for my bosses kid while they came to space camp
Networking is hugely important
vivid dock
See
umbral valley
That’s not to say you can’t find work without networking but it’s so much harder
vivid dock
Well yeah, but having the right connections just makes in so much easier
Not just to get jobs, but find open positions that are not listed.
autumn jackal
All of the people here with degrees on computer science, etc, can you look at here for a sec please? I must do a really big decision today
My university exam results have reached to me and I am able to go to not the best ones but at least decent computer science schools, so I must order which universities I would like to go in the next a few days
can you give me a brief information on what will I do in there, I mean, can I choose which language I will learn, or will I learn multiple languages
Because I also want electrical engineering and actually since I don't know what will I learn in CS I can't decide on which one to go
umbral valley
For my CS Program it was more of a program based on the theory behind computers. So, I had classes in C, C++, Java, C#, and then a class covering fortan, basic, and all the early ones in one class. The majority of my curriculum though was learning stuff like algorithms, data structures, networking, etc. All the back end theory stuff.
autumn jackal
So it kind of depends on which school I will go, right?
umbral valley
It can a little
generally CS is more theory and a software engineering major is more like actual coding
autumn jackal
I was looking at Istanbul University's CS curriculum, which I was thinking for a while, and they have neural networks, Artifical Intelligence, image processing etc as a lesson
so they might be teaching python?
umbral valley
Maybe, you can also reach out to professors
or the school itself and ask what their curriculum is like
autumn jackal
I was looking at them since like 5-10 mins but
most of the CS schools seemed they don't teach enough code
umbral valley
Well a lot of CS problems don't teach much code they teach the inner workings of computers and the algorithms and data structures and stuff
so that you can apply that to any language
autumn jackal
this is for example, the curriculum that will start to be used after this year
I can't find code related lessons except one or two
well, there are lessons so much related with software development (some of them are written in turkish, didn't notice that) but most of them are computer stuff
tawny quartz
Many CS curriculums are focused on the competers and math, not the languages
You'll have a few courses that get into depth on coding but for the rest it's a means to a end
Like clay said
main thicket
@autumn jackal you might want to think of computer engineering
Tends to be a mix of electrical and software
Might be up your alley
autumn jackal
@main thicket probably i will go with computer engineering, because computer science is too theoretical for me, and software engineering seemed like it's mostly focusing on code. However, what got my interest on computer engineering is, they mostly have a very similar curriculum with software engineering, but CE has electronics, software and theory together. Probably better for me.
main thicket
Yep 👌
dense berry
Not sure if this is the right channel, but how useful are Hadoop/spark
In the job market today
vague plover
@autumn jackal There's a normal computer engineering course too
Damn...
Good option...
umbral valley
How soon before graduation can you apply for full time jobs?
Like do companies post openings for jobs that candidates funnel into or do you just apply and list your graduation date
karmic bramble
You'd apply regularly and state when your expected graduation date is, IMHO
umbral valley
Kk. I figured that was the case; but 4 months early seems kind of big. So I assumed they would have some sort of new grad posting so people weren’t applying super early
karmic bramble
4 months is actually short
at least in Germany, dunno about your place
some companies here set their deadline for applications for apprenticeships around a year or even 1.5 before the actual graduation/job start date.
which is fucked up IMO, but real
luckily not every place is like this
vivid dock
What would i face in a php/web job interview?
rare sand
wordpress.
rare sand
well.. a lot.
vivid dock
A side of how to navigate the edit menu?
cunning notch
the part of the job you're most likely to be paid the big bucks for would be to install and manage the WordPress software with a web server and any associated themes, plugins, etc.
so yes
vivid dock
But what exactly is there to know about wordpress, other than the design part of it. I've already installed a localhost version of it I have running.
Like is there any key thing about it I could mention for creds
tawny quartz
That the discovery of it during recon raises the morale of a Red Team, at least momentarily
vivid dock
Other than wordpress and possibly php during the interview.. Do they ask anything else during interviews, other than "tell us something about yourself", and "any questions about us" etc
umbral valley
I've been asked about every random question you could think of to describe me like my spirit animal, what id bring during a zombie apocolypse, etc
wouldn't hurt to brush up on some algorithm questions though like fizzbuzz or any of the ones on triplebyte? i think is the website
tawny quartz
Keep in mind the general questions are often as important as the technical ones
vivid dock
I'd like to avoid practicing general questions about my self if i can avoid it
Kind of takes away the point of asking them, if they're rehearsed imo
tawny quartz
It just refreshes it in your mind, you don't need to remember the exact responses and regurgitate them
So that way you're not trying to recall that one class three semesters ago you found really interesting during the interview
vivid dock
I think I already have most of the interesting parts of myself down already
(Theres not much to it)
tawny quartz
It's easy to forget stuff you don't think matters, but does
And that's not an opinion you should have 😉
vivid dock
I mean, the only interesting things about me happened past highschool
So like the last 3-4 years
tawny quartz
Same for the most part
But a lot can happen in just a few years
tl;dr recall your experiences and don't discount them prematurely
vivid dock
so-so, but not that hard to recall
But I guess I could revisit a few of the common algorithms
main thicket
@karmic bramble I know many many people who start full time jobs in their final year of uni
And/or have a job lined up right after their classes finish even before graduation
rare sand
I agree with Known that the most important part is to come off as genuine and likable, especially for junior positions. They'll take a chance on your competency because a junior can learn a lot in a few months, but they'll never take a chance on someone who seems like they wouldn't fit into the team.
and I've never been asked about an algorithm in an interview, fwiw
I've had lots of personal questions and then a technical test or two
vivid dock
What exactly do these technical question revolve around
tawny quartz
I've been asked to design an algorithm in exactly one interview, and I think that was with Microsoft
main thicket
I've talked to plenty of companies who don't hire people who don't fit their culture. Some companies are very bro-y, some are very nerdy. It works best when people feel included and so they try to hire someone who can enjoy being there
tawny quartz
And that they know they won't hate being there
rare sand
yeah, and you can't really practice that either. either you're a good fit or you aren't. but it's important to know that if you do think you'd fit into the team, you should make every effort to demonstrate it.
vivid dock
That's something the interview will tell, during social encounter.
I confident in the social part of it, tbh. But I am curious to what technical questions (or even tasks) could emerge
rare sand
the tasks vary wildly from company to company. the questions I've gotten have typically been to demonstrate that you sorta know a technology or a language.
like, I was asked about the GIL when I had a python interview
stuff like that
they asked me to explain what part a list of technologies played in a stack
but the tasks.. well
tawny quartz
What technologies you know, what you're most familiar/comfortable with, if the interviewers are technical then maybe a few questions about those technologies
rare sand
at IBM they gave me a test, like I was in high school or something. sit down and fill in the answers, you have 60 minutes
very easy stuff.
vivid dock
Knowing myself, a "heres a test" with somewhat easy questions would probably go well. I might choke during a whiteboard test though
rare sand
I forget the questions but it was really stupid stuff like "what part of a computer does the 'thinking'"
vivid dock
lol
tawny quartz
Microsoft sort of did that, except he gave me some C bit fiddling code on a notepad and left the room...
rare sand
other places I've had the "sit down with this guy for a few hours and write a program while he watches you code"
which is usually ok if that guy is nice
vivid dock
Creepy
tawny quartz
That's not creepy
rare sand
one time I had the "write this program during the interview while the CTO watches you"
now that fucked me up
I had like.. 10 minutes
the program was trivial
tawny quartz
That's stressful
rare sand
yeah, I mean, I could've written it in 1 minute under normal conditions
but in such a high stress situation it fucked me up
and I wrote a terrible program
tawny quartz
which is why coding interviews are dumb imo
vivid dock
Guess it's to test work flow under stress?
rare sand
but then 20 minutes after the interview I sent the CTO an email with a much much better solution.
main thicket
The interview for the position I'm in was basically them asking me about how I got into programming and what I've done before. I found it pretty enjoyable tbh
vivid dock
I mean, I'm probably not interviewing for a very technical job
tawny quartz
For a entry-level position, I wouldn't expect a lot of hard technical questions
vivid dock
So it wouldn't surprise me if its just a social like interview
And the rest "to come"
rare sand
my favorite technical test was when they told me I had 3 days to build a URL shortener. had to be hosted on a real server, had to use postgres, flask, jinja2, javascript and python2, had to use git for source control.
vivid dock
That does sound like fun
rare sand
zero stress
vivid dock
Very specific boundaries, no-one watching over your shoulder, your own environment
etc
main thicket
Annoying part would be that it takes time and if you're interviewing with multiple companies and they all want you to make their thing... Well
rare sand
yes
that's the downside
but I mean, I really wanted that job
and besides, worst case scenario you've added another repo to your portfolio
vivid dock
¯_(ツ)_/¯
I do sort of hope it's just some, you can tinker on this local version of our server. If we like your ideas, we'll snag em
But idk, doubt it
rare sand
I'm guessing it won't be too technical
vivid dock
Just seems weird for them to reach out with a php / e-shop project position
when my resume doesn't mention php even
tawny quartz
Still don't know where I fit in
vivid dock
just js/html/css, bachelor in information science etc
tawny quartz
The NULL peg that fits in any hole
vivid dock
Reminds me I should re-arrange my programming languages list..
Having Java / javscript at the top implies I know them the best
tawny quartz
Well they need someone who can learn PHP
And if you have web languages on your resume, you obviously understand the basics of web technologies
vivid dock
I'm fine with learning php within their environment
pulsar drum
I had a friend who got hired with 0 php experience
tawny quartz
Upside: you get paid to learn
Downside: it's PHP
pulsar drum
being taught on the job and theyre sending him to php conferences
brainwashing him to love php
vivid dock
lol
tawny quartz
Yeah...
That's always a risk
You get into a position where your employer supports you and you're growing quickly, but it's in a technology you don't like...
pulsar drum
rare sand
most places I've been headhunted by have been for technologies I don't know, and when I've said "for the record, I don't have any experience with VueJS / ASP.NET / whatever terrible tech your company uses" they always reply "yes, but programming is programming. we're just looking for good programmers."
rare sand
point is, don't worry about not knowing PHP. just be up front about it. I know how to write code, but I don't have that much experience with PHP.
tawny quartz
And Python was banned
tawny quartz
xd
vivid dock
I could whip out the "I know programming, not much about PHP. However I've spent the last week learning php, and laravel"
rare sand
ASP.NET is satanic, dude.
yeah, exactly
say that
most likely they will reassure you that that's good enough
you have relevant education, experience with web..
vivid dock
Guess I'll spend today revisiting basic web-dev
rare sand
you spend your free time in a programming community where you're part of the staff
you're a nice, likeable guy
they should be so lucky
tawny quartz
You should brush up on security too >_>
vivid dock
gdude enlightened me yesterday of diminishing knowledge about html/css :D
vivid dock
Me like security little bit tho
tawny quartz
And this is why Experian happened
vivid dock
And I did buy bunch of books on it
rare sand
you either study security, or you live your life in blissful ignorance, unencumbered by the awful truth
vivid dock
Non the less, If this fails I still have my application for lab-assistant in general programming at uni
rare sand
there's no "brushing up on it" the same day as your interview
tawny quartz
By "brushing up", I mean "do you know what input sanitization is"
rare sand
besides, there's absolutely no reason to believe it will be relevant for your interview
vivid dock
Get to teach new-lings about python, and make money doing so
rare sand
sure, input sanitization might be nice
tawny quartz
You live your life in ignorance, then you get hit by SQLslammer
rare sand
maybe you should make sure you know how to do that in php
tawny quartz
Or some skiddie tries an apache structs exploit in ye olde' Metasploit and accidentally gets all the credit infos
vivid dock
Nice
Would you still got for an entry job, even if a friend complained about their services?
rare sand
as a first job I'd probably take anything that meant I got to write code for a living.
my current company kinda sucks.
but it's a living.
vivid dock
So be it then
It was funny
I mentioned the interview to a friend who works for some Vape-selling business
rare sand
vape-selling business might look a bit shady on a resume :D
vivid dock
And he complained about their workflow or something of the company i applied at
Since they did their website
rare sand
bottom line is, most companies suck.
vivid dock
Man, telling a story without exposing names is harder than i thought.
rare sand
if you work for one that doesn't, you lucked out.
vivid dock
I know nothing about their interaction, so might as well be my friend being stubborn with their requirements
rare sand
such a deleter today, known.
more like unknownerror amirite
I like my current job more than I like the prospect of finding a new one (for the moment), but I'd never use their services.
vivid dock
I guess that's why some google employees dont use chrome nor google.com 
(some at least)
rare sand
but I think google is a good example of a company that has very good services, although people may have ethical objections to the way they do business or their data collection
it would be hard to argue that stuff like google search or gmail is a terrible service. chrome on windows is pretty good, too (although I can't deal with chromium)
rare sand
yeah for sure
vivid dock
Which leaves me thinking, is it to avoid "work" in off-time
Or some insider knowledge about their services 
tawny quartz
Or they just don't like Google Talk and want to use Discord instead
Because it's a superior service
rare sand
or that
tawny quartz
Google's also not fanatical like Facebook
Would honestly like to try working at one of the big tech companies someday
Maybe Microsoft
vivid dock
I'd like to try it, but probably not as a final stop
vapid jay
But I have seen employees not use them
my aunt is a .NET developer for microsoft
and doesn't use windows 
not uncommon
vivid dock
Sounds like one of the terms, "Don't bring work home"
vapid jay
some insider knowledge about their services
I'd say that sometimes it falls under personal prefferences
But I'd say what lemon said once I think, the best way is to be able to use any service/Os/IDE at any given time
since you don't know how are you going to end up
that lemon wisdom made me install antergos and try linux for the first time
vivid dock
I got a raspberry to try linux
umbral valley
@tawny quartz we could apply at blizzard together and be roommates in Cali.
tawny quartz
But then I'd have to sell my house...
umbral valley
I mean you can commute if you want
candid vortex
Im thinking of installing debian on my Surface Pro 4
Its struggling to run Windows now
But i figure having a real unix-y desktop would be good practice
main thicket
Linux in sp4 and later is dodgy af and I've bricked a surface trying to install it
Eh, just do it again
candid vortex
I need to brush up on my Ansible for Windows desktop skills
main thicket
4gb sp4s are just naturally slow from what I've seen
candid vortex
Yeah its 4GB. I bought it in late 2015.
main thicket
Run out of memory really quickly
I avoid running more that one electron app at a time
candid vortex
And they're still charging the same price for the same model in stores!
main thicket
Try reducing electron instances
candid vortex
I just mean general computer use
main thicket
Ya, but anything taking memory contributes to slowdown
Also this is the wrong channel
candid vortex
My main workstation is a desktop PC with an i7 and 16GB
Sorry :p
I was just following on thr guy's above me talking about using /learning linux
candid vortex
I think they have that on a plaque in the Chrome dev team room.
Any Australians on tonight? Just wondering what the Aus Dev scene is like
main thicket
@candid vortex me
Aussie dev scene is good. Lots of software jobs
Where are you located?
Gone to sleep I guess :P
candid vortex
Perth
main thicket
Ah cant talk about Perth, I'm in Brissy
But at least here it's quite great. I've found myself being regularly exposed to a lot of really cool startups
candid vortex
I'm 4000 km away from the nearest AWS data centre :(
main thicket
Rough
Reminds me, we have 1.2 TB of data we have to upload to an S3 instance at work
candid vortex
I guess it doesn't matter too much haha. I'm trying to figure out what area I want to go into
main thicket
And we dont have gigabit internet
fossil rain
dont they have a service where you can bring a hdd with the data to one of their centers?
main thicket
Yah, Snowball
candid vortex
I've just become comfortable with the fundamentals of Python. And I'm trying to learn serverless concepts on AWS
main thicket
It used to be Import/Export which focused on terabyte size data and they changed it to Snowball which focuses on petabyte size data
main thicket
Pretty much. Stil $200 bucks though
Smh
I could mail them a hard drive in way less
Oh well
Are you a student? @candid vortex
main thicket
Which industry?
main thicket
Ah nice, that's always really cool
candid vortex
Mainly trying to tie together our main SaaS's.
main thicket
Sounds like you're learning some awesome stuff
candid vortex
I've just learn how to use their APIs and write what main function I need to do in Python
I (think) I just need to learn how to : setup a CI/CD pipeline, learn how to create an API gateway and create a publicly accessible gateway to call lamdba functions
main thicket
Sounds like you're really enjoying or at least interested in devops sort of stuff
candid vortex
The first thing I'm trying to do is to get the Rental order system to create an invoice in our accounts system and email it to a customer. I can do it manually in Xero I just need to present a way that can be called from a frontend userscript
Ive been a fan of lean before I knew what devops was
I read The Phoenix Project for the first time in May and I was like 'wait this is TPS/lean'
I can do it manually in Python**
main thicket
0 clue what you're talking about
candid vortex
Have you read the Phoenix Project?
main thicket
nope
candid vortex
It's really Cool
Basically theres this book called "The Goal"
I haven't read it but its a fiction book of a guy learning lean and turning a manufacturing plant around
And the Phoenix Project is a devops retelling of that
main thicket
Sounds like a well received book. Doesn't quite match my interest areas so I'll leave it for later :P
candid vortex
Its by the same guys and the Devops Handbook
But yes back to careers haha
I'm really blind about the tech industry. I've only really been learning python and linux for 8 months give or take
I'm just trying to figure out what 'roles' I should be aiming at.
I think I want to solve problems, as in create solutions for customer problems. Medium business to enterprise.
I'm a problem solver. An improver. Not so much a 'maintainer'
main thicket
Speaking to the same kinda guy
Solve problems in a technical way or solve problems as in provide a wholesome and complete business solution?
candid vortex
Hmm
Well I don't think I could do the wholesome way
It's too much for one person unless they're a consultant for small businesses
main thicket
That's okay, almost no engineer works alone
candid vortex
But I love team work
I would go mental if I worked alone constantly
I had a job years past, in the field as a technician
And it was 99.98% working by yourself exclude walking into annoyed clients offices
But I think I should be aiming for 'Software Engineer'?
ocean barn
I've got the phoenix project sitting on my nightstand :D
candid vortex
Like I said I'm totally blind. And I imagine I would do different roles throughout my career
main thicket
I think foryou it's less going to be about the position you're in and more about the company you're working for
At least in software, position titles are generally fairly meaningless
candid vortex
Do most people work for in house teams for enterprise companies
Or for software companies
I have no idea
ocean barn
I went from being ops in an enterprise company to a devops in a software company
main thicket
I have no data for that. I would have to say software companies at least here in Austalia because companies here prefer to get into a platform solution or hire a contractor rather than have in-house enterpise
Might be different elsewhere but I honestly couldnt say
main thicket
I have a fairly biased experience considering I'm still a student
So do keep in mind
candid vortex
I would want to go for a company that's up to date
main thicket
Tell me about it, no one wants to work your 10 year old PHP stack
candid vortex
Not what I believe some companies are. Who are like " We resell this CRM platform and its the greatest thing ever"
- Insert stock photography here *
ocean barn
look into startup companies, or companies that have only existed for less than 5 years
candid vortex
If I could wave a magic wand and describe my dream position,
It would be working in a team, who goes to clients/stakeholders, figures out what problems they're having workflow wise, and leverages software to fix those problems.
Then deploys kick ass solutions
main thicket
Lol man, my background is engineering (mechatronic, none of that software nonsense :P) and I absolutely hate working on things that arent technical and "cool". I dont like human-facing solutions, I like working on technical problems
main thicket
Isnt everyone here
candid vortex
But I can handle clients fine
stray dock
Can confirm
main thicket
Eh, I want to develop tech and apply that elsewhere rather than the other way around
Naturally more of an R&D person
candid vortex
You'd like playing with our gimbals at work
It's fun putting a $200k camera rig on a gimbal and attaching it to a car
main thicket
Gimbals are cool. Old school IMUs
candid vortex
Wireless stuff is so expensive
We have about $50k in wireless lens motors and wireless video gear and it's not even that much
main thicket
Sounds like an interesting market to engineer for though. Lots of innovations could help produce some amazing shots
candid vortex
Indeed I'll tell you all about it in another channel tomorrow if you like
I should go to bed soon though
main thicket
Good night! I shall continue watching my lectures
candid vortex
I'm reading some job descriptions for 'Senior Full Stack developers'
And thinking there is no way a human can be competent in ALL of these technologies
main thicket
Its a web job. Lots of web stuff is entangled together
candid vortex
But its like
Must be competent in development, languages, cutting edge devops tools, cutting edge, cutting edge DBA, operations,
Seems like a master of none sort of thing
main thicket
Well I assume the languages dont stretch beyond HTML/CSS/JS + one or two backend languages (python php?). HTML and CSS are relatively easy, JS and Python and PHP are relatively similar languages. If you work with any company, you have to deploy your work so you eventually get experience with devops tools. I assume DBA is database administration which also comes naturally as the backend part of full stack
hollow mantle
Honestly learning concepts are what sets you up. Learning a new language isn't all that hard after you understand the techniques. Syntax is a google search away
granite linden
True that!
ocean barn
@candid vortex you can get quite far knowing many technologies superficially, once you have a stack, that's when you start really deep diving into the advanced features to make use of its full potential
candid vortex
True true
I'm going to tackle AWS API gateway next. I feel like I should not spend too much time on services that are abstracted by providers like AWS. As in hardware, vmware, storage clusters etc.
I don't really want to get into infrastructure.
vague plover
@main thicket Well written dude
grizzled mauve
Is Python important to learn for engineers ? Like, in simulations ? Or maybe for Simulation Analysis or Mechanical Systems
candid vortex
Good question
My uninformed knowledge says its the go to language for scientific analysis
But I'm sure others can answer better. Depends on what timezone they are in.
grizzled mauve
Thank you !
Because Matlab (it's pretty much like Python) is used for in engineering field (not computer/software engineering, but other engineering field that don't need much programming)
real python
Unless you're using Simulink or some of the more specialized toolboxes there isn't much MATLAB does that Python can't do at least as well
grizzled mauve
What about simulations in mechanics ? I didn't precise, but I want to study mechanics more than electrics/electronics
main thicket
@grizzled mauve We generally use MATLAB for simulations but python tends to work just as well. It's gaining a bit of steam nowadays and some companies like Python experience because they don't have to pay for MATLAB licences
Python does miss out on all the engineering specific toolboxes which MATLAB has but if you don't need those or can find alternatives, python is great
Python tends to be used more for data based programming rather than simulations though, so keep that in mind
main thicket
Every engineer will have done a bit of MATLAB pretty much
grizzled mauve
And Matlab for studies
main thicket
It's very standard
grizzled mauve
Yeah I heard of that
grizzled mauve
Not yet
But I'm going to college this year
I'll choose engineering after 2 years physics class
main thicket
They'll probably teach you MATLAB there
lime lintel
MATLAB 😄
indigo sleet
!ban 470072791547510787 Spambot
inner wrenBOT
:ok_hand: permanently banned @unborn dragon (Spambot).
hard haven
Is there any way getting job without degree
hard haven
To get job what I need to know in python?
vivid dock
w/e is specified for the job I'd assume
That being general python + some modules, or just general python. Purely depends on the job
@rare sand They actually do a bit of python where I applied :D (It's minimal, and ill probably not be able to get into any time soon)
vivid dock
Its interest non the less
the whole thing is experimental to say the least
But they'll give a set of tasks next week or so as a test, there will be no hand holding to learn php nor wordpress. Ill get a quick intro to their environment and resources but that's about it
So 
hard haven
I have to learn the master level of python like object oriented programming
what modules do I need to know?
indigo sleet
There is no checklist
Contribute to some projects, do research, and especially research the jobs you want to apply for
main thicket
Object oriented is usually a basic requirement, not master level
indigo sleet
Yup
rugged isle
hi
obsidian acorn
fluid matrix
@hard haven
what modules do I need to know?```
not directly answering your question but when you have time, get the book titled **Think like a programmer** you won't regret it!@fluid matrix I'm in agreement, that book is nice
fluid matrix
it a great book
hard haven
Thanks @fluid matrix
short jacinth
What are the most appropriate software licences to protect your code when you submit an assignment as part of a job application? In case you have a suspect they might want to use your stuff for themselves without intention of hiring.
vivid dock
Good question, I'd love to hear the answer to it as i'm about to do just that.. post code. And from how I understood it, the code I'm tasked to write will be actual problems they have to solve
rare sand
https://choosealicense.com/ might be useful
there's also the option of not having a license
I don't really see it as a big issue either way
they're never gonna use your code
and even if they do, who cares? are you submitting your magnum opus?
more likely you're just solving some relatively simple task
if you don't want them to use it, don't have a license. licenses are for allowing people to use your code.
or a restrictive license like GNU would allow it to be used only for open source stuff.
zealous siren
Surely no license means it's fair game
Stick GPL in there and they won't touch it
:)
rare sand
no license does not mean it's "fair game", no
you need permission to use, modify or share software. licenses exist to grant such permission. which should be obvious from the word "license"
ocean barn
like james bond, he can't just kill people, he needs a license
rare sand
it's exactly like james bond.
James Bond has an MIT license to kill
and share
and modify
zealous siren
Sure, but at least state somewhere "there is no license!!!!!!!!" else people might just think it's an oversight
rare sand
even if it is an oversight, that does not grant anyone permission to use your code, lol.
if you don't wanna be sued, don't use unlicensed code.
zealous siren
But it gives them a tiny tiny saving grace
rare sand
yes. but they'll lose in court.
zealous siren
Which wouldn't happen if you were clear about it
rare sand
if you think someone has just forgotten to provide a license, you should contact them and ask them to put one up.
ocean barn
it's pretty clear, no license means copyright law defaults apply
zealous siren
I guess contacting them is fair enough, but I mean in the situation of this interview
Not any old persons code
rare sand
I'm just saying, no license is a thing. you should know that. it means something. a serious company would never use code from a github with no license.
that's a big legal no-no
zealous siren
I know what I means
But I meant in the context of them submitting code as part of an interview
That for sure is not as clear
short jacinth
so in regards to my original question
having no licence at all should also make it "safe", right?
ocean barn
yes
short jacinth
thanks, I didn't know that. Does it basically fall under "proprietary" in that case, or they can't use it because it needs a licence at all?
ocean barn
I haven't actually read the copyright laws
zealous siren
They cant use it because they have no permission to use it
But in the case of submitting it as a job interview and you getting hired, i dont know if that changes things
short jacinth
well since it's my code I guess in that case I can just change the licence anytime
zealous siren
But thats the thing, if you get hired, is it still your code?
zealous siren
You should really check with someone who does this for a living :)
short jacinth
I do coding for a living, just never had to submit code that smells useful lol
short jacinth
Aaaah, I get you 😄
green sinew
Copyright is automatic
The minute you have created something
Your are the sole-owner of the copyright
You could use a licence just to explicitly state that.
Am I right that what your are really paying for with a payed lisence is legal protection?
rare sand
@zealous siren
But thats the thing, if you get hired, is it still your code?
yes of course it is. they didn't pay you to write it.
zealous siren
I would like to hear that from a lawyer
rare sand
then go ask a lawyer, lol.
zealous siren
Will do.
rare sand
ask them if the shirt you bought for the interview belongs to the company too while you're at it
zealous siren
There is no reason to be facetious, i thought this was a serious server.
rare sand
lol. always trying your hardest to make staff look bad.
zealous siren
How so?
rare sand
you know how so, and we're not doing this in this channel.
green sinew
@zealous siren go back to the raspberry pi server where you belong :>
zealous siren
lol
little sinew
@rare sand if you develop it on company machines or using company ressources, is it still your property?
most companies will have an IP clause in their contracts
people have been bitten because their personal project was claimed by the company they worked at
green sinew
I think what he means is in the case being discussed
You are the sole owner
Copyright law is pretty good for normal people
rare sand
in the case being discussed the person is not employed yet, so that would not apply. but yes some contracts are extremely restrictive in terms of personal projects and that sucks.
a friend of mine works at King (the candy crush guys) and cannot write any personal projects what so ever.
they would immediately be King property no matter when or where he wrote them. even at home on his spare time.
little sinew
damn, where are they located?
rare sand
the uk
green sinew
That's.....
little sinew
huh, I thought the EU had better protection than that
green sinew
Shit
little sinew
california says you can't do that, the eu though....
zealous siren
what
zealous siren
Its nothing to do with brexit or GDPR, itll be part of their work contract
little sinew
If it had been a EU law, brexit would have stopped it
zealous siren
Most if not all EU laws are being transferred into UK law anyways
little sinew
that's not fully finalized yet
hell, I'm currently a student in the EU and technically, every piece of code I write for personal projects is school IP
zealous siren
Well, the plan is to at least include them all
What will happen, only time will tell.
little sinew
it'll be a fun day when people who voted for brexit to tear off the shackles of EU law realize they have to... put on the shackles of EU law again
short jacinth
@rare sand for example I can't publish anything I write here as opensource
it kinda sucks
little sinew
even your personal projects?
short jacinth
if it's used here, I can't
little sinew
why?
rare sand
I am lucky enough not to have anything in my contract about this.
short jacinth
shitty rules I guess
but I can just rewrite it at home and change some stuff I guess lol
zealous siren
change a few variable names here and there :^)