career-advice

[fringe sphinx]

Apple, I’m ambivalent towards, though I’m sure I’d like it there

[summer roost]

and as for Amazon: I've known quite a few people who've worked for Amazon, and the overwhelming majority of them hated it (one had a positive experience, though that person was specifically poached by Amazon to lead a product team, so I'm gonna call that one an outlier)

[leaden jasper]

I had a friend who was excited when he got hired at Amazon. NOPE'd the fuck out of there as soon as he could. Apparently dreadful work culture

[summer roost]

it speaks a great deal to the engineering culture in the company, I think. Apple has a notoriously closed engineering culture based on secrecy, Microsoft has a culture based more on collaboration and openness, from what I can tell.

[true harness]

MSFT made a complete turnaround in that regard I think. didn't they use to be against open source?

[summer roost]

yep, indeed. The microsoft of 2023 is very different than the microsoft of 2003

[vital wyvern]

Against is probably a strong word. I'd say they more had very little reason to engage in open-source contributions as a whole. With the wealth of excellent and applicable languages now, I think they're also investing in themselves when they work to contribute to things like Core Python for instance.

[fringe sphinx]

It was somewhat split, msft research has a very long positive history, but yah, big change in the product orgs.

[summer roost]

no, "against" is very much the right word... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish

sorry, what is? I think I've missed something here

[weak yacht]

Their main operating system is closed source, designed with intentional backdoors.

[summer roost]

for a full time position, or internship, or what?

[vital wyvern]

I'm not sure if I'm reading this correctly, but you can concievably make open-source proprietary software no?

Sorry that was worded strangely.

[summer roost]

"open-source", yes, "libre" / "free and open source", no

[weak yacht]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSAKEY

[vital wyvern]

I don't know that I think businesses will ever move to an exclusively free "Free as in free beer" model though

[weak yacht]

anyone still using windows, your computer is literally a honeypot.

[summer roost]

exclusively, of course not. businesses gotta make money

it's, like, their thing

[fleet reef]

say it ain't so

[summer roost]

if it's for a full-time position I'd be OK leaving it blank, if it's for an intern position you should probably fill it in, I'd say

[true harness]

does it ask for GPA? asking college grads for SAT scores is like asking for middle school grades when applying to college 😬

[summer roost]

yeah, agreed. It's weird to even ask that question for college grads.

in any event, I wouldn't worry about leaving SAT/ACT/high school GPA blank when applying for a college grad role

surely they have people apply who came from other countries and couldn't fill in SAT/ACT/GPA even if they wanted to

[vapid jay]

is drw that high? I got an interview with them coming up 💀

[summer roost]

as a for-instance about Apple's engineering culture - I pretty much never see Apple people at conferences. Netflix/Meta/Microsoft/Google all represent. So does HRT, actually.

[vapid jay]

professionally very little

yeah

not very good, top 50 in the us

idk how i got an interview tbh, literally started leetcode in july

their OA was really easy tho, just a stack and graph problem

im literally gonna go against some 16 year old with a decade year of experience in discrete math

[summer roost]

if companies hire high school students for internships, they usually have different internship slots for high school students than university students

[true harness]

the 16 yo is a uni senior

[summer roost]

heh

[vapid jay]

drw is insane competition, the people who get hired are really good at dsa

[fringe sphinx]

What’s Drw?

[dense fiber]

i guess apple don't want their rep/employee to engage with the community?

or maybe some just attend anyways but without carrying Apple on their lanyard

[summer roost]

I don't know much about HRT's engineering culture, but I do know they sponsor conferences.

[fringe sphinx]

I like the problems at hedge funds and they pay well, but quant work doesn’t seem fulfilling (in any way other than $$)

[visual shell]

Does anyone know where I can get a list of cybersecurity internships?

SWE ones are practically everywhere but I can seem to find security ones

[summer roost]

they'd be listed in the same places

[kind monolith]

Hey, I've got a question.
If I'm applying for a job as a tier 1 soc (not a python specific job) and I wrote a fairly long script (1900 lines) but didn't have the time to split it into modules, should I link it with my CV or will it look bad?
Like, is me showing my ability to write scripts compensate for it not being splitted into modules?

[gilded valley]

it's hard to say without understanding more - but there's plenty of high profile infosec stuff out there written in not-great python (e. g Salesforce's Jarm)

[modest kraken]

Is it legal to get a programming job as a minor?

[visual shell]

if you are your state/province legal working age

[modest kraken]

Idk what that it

[visual shell]

search it

[kind monolith]

My script is a utility script for windows 10, not info sec related.
I just want to link it as a proof of my ability to write scripts.
For reference
https://github.com/GeneriicName/Utility-menu-py

[gilded valley]

it looks fine - worth including

[tawny jackal]

how to close a post?

[tropic cargo]

yo guys just want to ask is this course good for learning python https://www.udemy.com/course/programming-foundation-with-python/

[kind monolith]

Sorry for late response I'm at work.
Thanks! I appriacate the feedback and now I feel comfortable enough to link it 😊

[dense mesa]

Why wouldn't it be fulfilling in your opinion?

[cinder fossil]

I'm not sure about what the quants do in particular but DevOps and general internal tooling development is a very fun and fulfilling style of work at hedge funds; needless to say there's generally just a lot you could do besides being an analyst or trader

[gilded valley]

devops at hedge funds isn't really different to devops anywhere else.

[noble tusk]

network engineer is extremely stable future job

[proven crest]

I'd look at Automate the boring stuff by Al Swig, 100 days of Python by Angela Yu or Zero to Hero by Jose P. Those are all good courses for beginners, look at each of them and decide what best fits for you. Al occasinally gives out free codes for his course on his subreddit, so keep an eye out on there! Always wait for Udemy courses to go on sale, never pay full price.

[pastel thunder]

after how many year of exp. should sde1 be a sde 2?

[tropic cargo]

thanks for your suggestion

[proven crest]

AFAIK it's not strictly based on years. It's based on capability, and I think the requirements vary between companies. I'd imagine from SDE1 to SDE2 would generally be a few years in most large companies. You'll probably find more detailed specs online though.

[vapid jay]

Varies

[near ocean]

Whats sde1 and sde2, they sound like company specific roles

[vapid jay]

Software Development Engineer

[vapid jay]

How so?

[proven crest]

They kind of are, its used by some FANGS* to denote levels
*By FANGs I mean large tech companies, MS do too I beleive

[vapid jay]

FAANG or MANGA

[proven crest]

But either way, looking at the specs from the company would be the best way to know

I'm currently a junior dev working for a company that does managed services, the projects I'm working on are all kind of similar, but very different so I'm always learning new stuff, working on interesting things and being pushed. They also give us a lot of freedom. If I want to work on machine learning, can set out a plan and its within my scope they'll let me do it, it's a lot of fun seeing others in my team able to innovate like that and I'm excited for when that's something I have the skills to do too. It's a mid sized company.

I'm curious about what other jobs are like. I'm not sure if I'd stay here forever as its my first tech job, but is this a rarity or are a lot of jobs like this in terms of excitement, freedom and learning?

[gilded valley]

your question should be how is it different.

but 90% of problems they're solving - deploying resilient, observable, business critical software - is the same at almost any information company

[pastel thunder]

based on capability.
but atleast? 2 yr of exp?

[proven crest]

Again, it'll depend on the company. I'm not sure what their specs are. If you're a genius and have the skills for SWE2 after 1 year, I'm sure they'll move you up, likewise, if you're a bit slower it may take you 3/4 years. I might be completely wrong however, there might be a set time experince. It'll vary by company.

[near ocean]

What are the differences in responsibilities between these levels though?

[proven crest]

No idea, they've not mentioned the company they're inquiring about either

[near ocean]

Worrying about specific years of experience instead of what that experience is is not a good sign to start with

[proven crest]

mr mar, you've been around the block a bit from recollection, what are your thoughts on this?

[near ocean]

I have not, im merely pretending
1y9months experience here

[proven crest]

ah haha, its the old man that gets me

[near ocean]

You know better than I do for sure

i worked at a startup and was the only one doing python/vba stuff, the rest were dotnet stuff and react
apart from being told what features to implement, i was free to do that however i wanted so i could use that to learn a couple new things
i dont think most jobs are like this however, current one is stricter, more enterprisey

but also its a bigger company

[pastel thunder]

curiosity

[near ocean]

You havent mentioned which company, country, team even?

[eternal bough]

Hi. Anyone knows when can we expect courses and exams for PCAT or PCAD certifications? Python institute page looks out of date - for PCAT it is mentioned that - (Coming Q1 2023)

[vapid jay]

And yet, the gatekeepers of many jobs have a filter set with a >= n year and... that's it

[vapid jay]

Low bar, @gilded valley. @kind monolith rather restructure it for readability of audiences which need information spoon fed and are quick to judge negatively. It's shorter to pick a negative signal than fish for a positive one. Huge file of 1846 lines is risky.

[vapid jay]

Same as a non-programming job. Not programming specific.

[vapid jay]

Team/Manager specific.

[gilded valley]

the file is fine. you open it and are presented with sensible, docstringed functions.

this is a perfectly sensible format for a script. I would much rather come across this than something layered with magic, bad abstractions, and indirection.

it's not great software - and it's not trying to be - it's just a big script

[near ocean]

average ginormous file enjoyer
its fine, include it

[vapid jay]

If subdivision of work in discrete functions is a factor in the assessment of the functional decomposition, you are giving risky advice by asserting that this might be acceptable, even with a docstring:

"""checks if the passed string is a computer in the domain
if it is, it checks if its online, if it is online it then proceed to display information on the computer
if the passed string is not a computer in the domain it looks for a file with the same name and txt extension
in the preconfigured path via the config file, if it finds any it treats the contents of the file as the computer
name and rerun on_submit with the computer as the arg
if the string is neither a username nor a computer name it checks if it's a printer - TCP/IP or installed via
print server"""

Separation of concerns.

It may be ok for some but it may be considered problematic by more people than those who disregard the signal.

"Refactor to act as a business card" sounds more prudent, especially in a Career Discussion channel.

@kind monolith rethink the script after stuyding this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_concerns

[gilded valley]

you sound like someone I'd hate to work with

[near ocean]

this is career discussion not code review
if we waited till everything was perfect to include in our CVs none of us would have a projects section

[vapid jay]

Is your work environment so lenient?

[vapid jay]

Also: this is directed as personal, whereas my comment was on the code and its suitability as a business card.

[near ocean]

Youre overthinking this

Of course they should include it in their github

[gilded valley]

my place of employment is substantially bereft of colleagues overly prone to inextricably complex language.

The more typical mode of communication is a rather more direct and less cumbersome style characteristic of those who - as the kids say - get shit done

[near ocean]

Its a script, it does the one thing, its not meant to be maintainable

[vapid jay]

Said simply: the problem the script solves is not what most will care about, the form will be looked at and judged, possibly superficially, likely quickly and negative signals are faster to gather than positive ones. A simpler script, doing less, written better may fare better.

[vapid jay]

I write code that's not maintainable is a hard sell. But I respect it.

[near ocean]

Its a script, again, youre overthinking this

[novel portal]

What are some projects that would really stand out on a portfolio?

[vapid jay]

You think longer and messier is better than shorter and clearer and/or better thought out?

[vapid jay]

Open-source contributions?

[near ocean]

I think whoever would judge a script on its docstrings probably isnt worth much either

[delicate bane]

sounds like the sql script my teammate wrote that i need to run tomorrow to get a certain report.

[novel portal]

I really do need to get going on a professional github lol

[vapid jay]

Or get good at live coding exercises sent by machines as auto-reply

[near ocean]

I've never actually had an online assessment sent to me as a response to an application

[vapid jay]

Amazon sends them before a human contact, for example

[novel portal]

Me either

I was thinking about making a website and posting my projects with flask. Any thoughts?

[near ocean]

Sure, sounds good

[novel portal]

I'm just trying to get a foot in the door before i finish my bachelors lol

Everything i hear is that the job market is awful right now and that there's heavy competition against people who have a few years of experience

[near ocean]

Yes, it is hard out there

[proven crest]

Anything unique and relevant to your interests. It doesn't have to break new ground, but it shouldn't be a copy paste / tutorial project or variation on whats been done thousands of times.

[wind solstice]

Yall think I gotta chance in college if I do really well 11 and 12 grade year

[proven crest]

Depends on the collage you want to go to and their entry requirements. There will always be an online college somewhere in the world that will take you.

[wind solstice]

Alright thanks

I mean I did great 9th grade year

[proven crest]

So look at some colleges you want to consider, check their entry requirements and thats what you'll need to achieve as a minimum, always try to exceed the minimum.

[wind solstice]

Alright I still got 2 years to do my best

[novel portal]

I finished hs with a 1.7 gpa, college i have a 4.0

It's just about the effort you put in @wind solstice

[fringe sphinx]

as my nephews say: "c's get degrees". Not a recommended life style, but true.

[proven crest]

I mean, like I said there’s always an online college somewhere in the world that will take you even if you fail or drop out of high school lol

[fringe sphinx]

Or the military.

[wind solstice]

I has a had a 3.87 in the 9th grade

I was just worried that my bad grades in 10th grade would servely limit my options for college

Like I have 11 and 12 grade to make it up but my guidance consular said that they look at your application for one sec

Like I should be able to get in most teacher have offered to give me recommendations letters and stuff but I am still worried

[kind monolith]

I know it's a good idea to split to multiple modules, but I don't have the time sadly

[keen fractal]

Hello everyone
Who advice can one give for someone getting into computer science

[vapid jay]

Optimise for fun whilst learning

[deft herald]

Learn by practicing. If you don't do your assignments or offload to ChatGPT or whatever, you won't learn anything

[vapid jay]

You'll learn how to use ChatGPT.

[fringe sphinx]

There's three things to develop: programming skills, mathematical maturity, and data skills (for most people). Each have their own trajectory.

[vapid jay]

Are you selling your services?

[hearty island]

why are we advertising

[keen fractal]

And how does one do that

[keen fractal]

Define data skills

[true harness]

actually enjoy programming. program outside of your coursework. coding will rarely be covered in class, but it will be expected for almost all of your coursework. you need to be able to code

[hearty island]

^

[keen fractal]

Oh good for me then cause I already do that

[vapid jay]

One follows curiosity, adjacent domains of pre-existing interest, ...

[vapid jay]

Database tech, data science tech, ...

[vapid jay]

SQL, Pandas, AWS data services, ...

This feels spammy and off topic to me

[proven crest]

You won’t learn how to problem solve, research or read documentation

[pliant mist]

Guys, just a general question. Is it better to learn coding entirely or should I just use AI for it? If not, is there any specific difference?

[vapid jay]

Start with an AI, try to do the same yourself so that you can make sense of the AI answers which might be incorrect

[pliant mist]

So you are saying that I should code with AI simultaneously?

[proven crest]

That’s terrible advise, ignore it.

[vapid jay]

Starting with AI only requires being able to formulate a question in clear English. So.. of course you can start with AI first. It will show you some code doing what you asked and with time this code will be more frequently correct than not, for simple problems.

[true harness]

it depends what you want to do. coding is a marketable skill. using an AI is not

[vapid jay]

What's terrible about it?

[vapid jay]

Prompt Engineer is a job advertised on LinkedIn?

[proven crest]

If you want to learn programming, using an AI to program for you isn’t going to teach you. You need to learn the fundamentals and basics, you won’t learn that through asking an AI to program for you.

[vapid jay]

An AI is a patient tutor which responds to questions faster than StackOverflow?

[proven crest]

Using AI as a search tool as a last resort is fine, but that’s it. You need to learn to problem solve independently.

[vapid jay]

I confirm there are multiple Prompt Engineer jobs advertised on LinkedIn as of now.

[true harness]

a beginner using AI tools cannot discern between good and bad advice, much better to use resources that are known to be correct

[vapid jay]

The probability of an AI producing correct code to an exercise as simple as a beginner programmer may solve is extremely high, as proven by the score measured on GPT-4. The AI can also, most of the time, explain its reasoning.

[proven crest]

But what’s the point!?!?

[kind marsh]

LLMs have no sense of knowing when they're actually correct or confident in an answer, relying on them as an educational resource is basically like relying on a tutor who will never admit when they doesn't know something

[vapid jay]

That it is an interactive, patient and mostly correct tutor, possibly more correct already than the average user on the Internet

[hearty island]

do not use an ai to learn code lol

[proven crest]

Even if it was 100% correct all the time, what’s the point. If I want to learn to draw and I ask someone to draw for me, what have I learnt?

[vapid jay]

The probability that GPT-4 gives correct advice, on average, sampling from all developers who have written Hello, World, is better than that of humans, today

[proven crest]

Source: trust me bro

[fervent grove]

i would disagree

[vapid jay]

That GPT-4 can explain its reasoning, all the time it's required until the user understands

[kind marsh]

and what if the reasoning is flawed?

[true harness]

i mean it's probably true; writing a hello world is quite a low bar. the issue is that you're not competing against first time coders, but people that have written good, vetted resources

[vapid jay]

GPT-5 will be so much more capable that few humans will be on pair.

Learning to code also with an AI might be good career advice, not terrible career advice

[hearty island]

this is a joke right

[fervent grove]

🗿
soon we are all unemployed fuck
🗿

[proven crest]

But then you’re not learning to problem solve independently. You’re not learning to research. You’re not learning to read documentation.

You can’t become a proficient programmer by being spoon fed.

[open cradle]

It could be nice if this server had a "GPT" channel

[vapid jay]

No, source is this:
https://openai.com/research/gpt-4

scores high even on the Uniform Bar Exam (MBE+MEE+MPT)1

[near ocean]

i wouldnt trust a lawyer to teach me coding

[fervent grove]

give GPT a real world problem and tell him to come up with results
im waiting

[open cradle]

Is this the test were GPT was doing the exam multiple times until it gets closer to the solution? And then saying it passed 80% or so?

[kind marsh]

i don't think you should be recommending people to use AI to learn based off the idea that it'll be better in the future, the fact is that right now, the LLMs that most people have access to still continue to make huge yet easy to look over mistakes that will undoubtebly trip up learners who very literally won't know when its right or wrong

[vapid jay]

Performance on LeetCode Easy is 31 / 41 (source: link above). That's better than the average of all "developers".

[true harness]

right, but the average dev problem is not leetcode

[proven crest]

Someone with no coding experience can do the same by coping and pasting the answer.

[fervent grove]

i was referring to real science

[proven crest]

What about a unique problem?

[fervent grove]

ask GPT to perform time series data analysis on an unknow dataset and come to us with results

[gilded valley]

This is surely not on topic?

[summer roost]

It can solve 31 out of 41 easy problems whose solutions were in its training set? That sounds less than impressive...

[vapid jay]

It's just a reply to "this is terrible adviCe" (redacted), quoted here: #career-advice message

[proven crest]

And even for simple things, I asked GPT something earlier, I had a raw string with a backslash at the end and I was receiving an unterminated string literal error. It couldn’t give me an answer as to why. It just kept looping two wrong answers. Looking at the documentation for raw strings, they can’t end in a backslash for some reason.

[vapid jay]

What problem a beginner would face can it not solve?

[fervent grove]

yeh sometimes its just clueless and repeats wrong answer over and over again kinda funny and sad at the same time 😄

[gilded valley]

the original question was off topic - and we've drifted from the question

[proven crest]

See above

[open cradle]

Architecture, decision making...

[vapid jay]

Architecture is hardly a beginner's concern? How to increment an int is..

[proven crest]

And the point is that a beginner should be learning to research and problem solve, not to be spoon fed every answer.

[true harness]

need to move this convo to ot fr fr

[vapid jay]

Or #pedagogy

[open cradle]

Architecture is also knowing when you would use a class or a function, for example

Ok I will stop woth this topic 🙂

[proven crest]

No point even continuing it tbh. If you’re learning by being spoon fed by an AI or having it write your code you won’t go far. That’s the end of it.

[fervent grove]

so are there some redflag buzzwords 🗿 in an job description

[proven crest]

Prompt engineer

[fervent grove]

tbh i love the corporate benefits section the most hahaha

[vapid jay]

They earn real money.. more than some Junior Software Engineers, based on the advertised salary..

[proven crest]

In all seriousness, anything that says you need no experience and will be trained, anything that charges you for training, basically anything that asks you for money.

[fervent grove]

i juust want to get some time to tackle it myself lel
training can be cool but also super bad

[near ocean]

Many jobs earn more than software devs, thats irrelevant

[vapid jay]

Irrelevant to what?

[near ocean]

To the validity of the advice

[fervent grove]

whats the normal time period until hiring manager reaches out after first interview?

[vapid jay]

Which advice

[vapid jay]

Varies

[true harness]

i would say to wait 2 weeks, unless you've asked in the interview and they gave you a different time

[fervent grove]

sounds good

but i guess to be asked when i could start and my salary wishes is a good first sign?

[near ocean]

Using AI for work and to learn programming

[fervent grove]

we dont want to go there again

[near ocean]

Whether prompt engineers are a real job is a careers related question/topic

[vapid jay]

And different from the previous topic which was: is pedagogically advisable to learn with the help of an AI tutor

[gilded valley]

yes but it's like arguing with blockchain fanatics or playing chess with pigeons

[vapid jay]

I think Prompt Engineer is a very lucrative job to have and possibly an interesting career avenue

[vapid jay]

Which part tastes like fanaticism to you?

[fervent grove]

until we cross link one LLM with another and they prompt each other oh wait we already do that

[gilded valley]

the wild unsubstantiated claims

[vapid jay]

There are professions which seem more short-lived than a Prompt Engineer, specifically because of the advent of LLMs. Much information work.

[vapid jay]

Please link them, or DM them to me

[fervent grove]

i remember when all used google for science claims
worked well didnt it?
but we are drifting again ⛵

[vapid jay]

The paper is Sparks of Artificial General Intelligence: Early experiments with GPT-4, the source is: https://arxiv.org/abs/2303.12712 the quote is:

In this section, we show that GPT-4 is able to code at a very high level, both in terms of writing code from instructions and understanding existing code. GPT-4 can handle a wide range of coding tasks, from coding challenges to real world applications, from low-level assembly to high-level frameworks, from simple data structures to complex programs such as games. GPT-4 can also reason about code execution, simulate the effects of instructions, and explain the results in natural language. GPT-4 can even execute pseudocode, which requires interpreting informal and vague expressions that are not valid in any programming language. In its current state, we believe that GPT-4 has a high proficiency in writing focused programs that only depend on existing public libraries, which favorably compares to the average software engineer’s ability.
note the closing statement:
favorably compares to the average software engineer’s ability
which means.. on average.. it's good, Vs humans.

[hearty island]

guys wish me luck, i applied for a role at citi

[vapid jay]

That's far from a wild, unsubstantiated claim. But I am happy to drop this topic.

[vapid jay]

Good luck. It's a lot about luck these days anyway.

[hearty island]

it said if you have a graduation date between dec 2023 and june 2024 to apply and i graduate may 2024 + over a 3.3 gpa

[hearty island]

thanks!

i really want something better than i currently have

[vapid jay]

attribution: any human

[hearty island]

hahahaha true. grass is always greener on the other side

[gilded valley]

here. but I don't want to talk to you, or about this topic. so I won't reply past here

[hearty island]

i mean my mom says to just be happy with what i have, but the offer i currently have imo pays me less than it should and they're not very open to negotiating 😦

[vapid jay]

So I won't link, again, a credible source for the projected enhanced capabilities of the upcoming version of GPT. I regret the end of our exchanges. May you find the career advice you came here for. Peace.

[hearty island]

if i find something better i will jump ship happily

[fringe sphinx]

I know this sounds like old man advice, but: the quality of your first job matters more than the $$. I had some very high quality jobs early in my career, and it completely changed my trajectory.

[vapid jay]

You can be both happy with what you have and long, as any other person, for more? Happy + search for better sounds good.

[hearty island]

no it doesn't sound like old man advice. that's good advice. but it's not a very high quality job 😦.

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, then that's easy 🙂

[hearty island]

the last internship i did at the company i did jackshit and i don't think i will get much more as a junior project manager there

[fringe sphinx]

It's easy to fall into the mindset that it's gotta be FAANG (or whatever tiering you want to use) to be a good job/etc.

[vapid jay]

So one gets a prestigious layoff.

Not just any layoff. But a mass Google layoff. Swag.

[hearty island]

i'm aiming for banking companies. will probably get my CFA after my PMP and MBA

the cfa is so goddamn expensive and for what

but the cfa also opens crazy doors in finance

[gilded valley]

the CFA opens no doors in finance anymore. it's mostly a thing forced on you by employers to prove you can grind

[hearty island]

oh why was my finance prof stressing it so hard then

[vapid jay]

Take that as one person's opinion, though. No more than that, even if said so categorically.

[fringe sphinx]

There's a bit of semantics too... it might not open a door, but in some firms, you are career limited without the appropriate career cert (I'm talking CFA, CPA, etc)

[hearty island]

would a project manager even need a CFA to work in the financial industry?

[vapid jay]

Yes, not preventing a door to be closed is still useful..

[gilded valley]

I've worked in 2 buy-side roles, and with lots of sellside people.

you can find various FT articles talking about the decline of the CFA prestige.

it used to matter, but not any more. it's too much memorisation to demonstrate any real skill - it's literally memorising the order in which to press buttons on a bad calculator for a substantial chunk of the questions

The CFA — Wall St’s toughest qualification — struggles to regain stature - https://on.ft.com/3b1iCh9 via @FT

[hearty island]

interesting. will give it a read after i finish this pomodoro

[gilded valley]

Demand ‘falls off cliff’ for CFA financial analyst qualification - https://on.ft.com/3NkNkAo via @FT

[hearty island]

they actually presented at my college last semester and said something about redesigning the test

[fringe sphinx]

In damian's specific case, I would expect a CFA would help him enter the industry, speak the language of their users/customers/domain, and at least differentiate against generic candidates. Woudl you agree there?

(knowing that damian's goal is not an analyst or finance role)

[gilded valley]

I would say there are much better ways to spend 1000 hrs even if that is the goal

[hearty island]

such as? ah i'm blocked again 😦

[gilded valley]

studying genuinely useful content.

start with accounting 101, move on to things like Aswath Damodaran's valuation courses

[fringe sphinx]

Perhaps a post-graduate cert with a path to masters? (parttime/evening)

[hearty island]

i plan to get my mba in business analytics from baruch in a couple years

[fringe sphinx]

oh man, I just looked up the CFA pass rate. Ugh.

[hearty island]

oh yeah. crazy low.

that being said i have seen people snatch jobs in finance with no cfa designation. and i have seen a lot of job requirements that don't mention the cfa. even analytical roles.

thanks for the advice, i appreciate it

[sleek egret]

finance is a large industry. there are a huge variety of different roles available.

some roles require specialized finance-related knowledge. others do not.

[hearty island]

so the answer is it depends on the role

[sleek egret]

well... it depends 😋

[hearty island]

haha

i just got a text from the senior manager of problem management at my internship company asking for feedback about my boss

time to bs and say he was the goat

[sleek egret]

just shape your words to match your objectives. think about how you want the reader to feel.

[harsh river]

just be honest ™️

[fringe sphinx]

I think the question is: how does someone who wants to enter the finance industry in a non-finance role (ie: PM) show their industry interest/knowledge, but without going full-on CFA?

[hearty island]

NO FUCKING WAY

there's a recruiter CC'd on this shit too

maybe there's a process in selecting me or sum idk

i've never gotten an email like this from them. this could mean something

[deft herald]

This looks pretty automated

[hearty island]

yeah after reading it entirely i'm like nvm lol

[hearty island]

they normally never acknowledge my app tho

also... i graduate in may 2024 so why would i want an internship

[deft herald]

You apparently applied to those positions

[hearty island]

yeah i was just throwing my resume around seeing if the capm helped

i would kill for a full time position tho if they had it

[gilded valley]

in the UK, there's the IMC which is exactly that

I'm sure there's a US equivalent - or failing that the CFA Institute has ESG certs which demonstrate interest

[hearty island]

would i take the PwC internship over a full time job? nah fuck that

[fervent grove]

lol

[hearty island]

but this is a good sign that maybe the capm is doing something

[fervent grove]

entry level with internships kekw

[hearty island]

lmaooo, yeah no. that's like the opposite of entry level

[fervent grove]

they are pretty sassy

[hearty island]

we are not doing internships when we graduate screw that

[fervent grove]

why applying then

[hearty island]

boredom

[true harness]

get a hobby lmao

[fervent grove]

+1

[hearty island]

my hobby is hunting for jobs. i also like listening to music and exercise

i kinda miss studying for my capm that shit was fun

[open cradle]

I would not apply for a position I would not take. I do not like the idea of other people being out of the process because of this

[true harness]

it's not really bumping people out though. they'll just go to the next candidate

[open cradle]

If that's the case, it is fine I guess

[true harness]

they may not like it if it's obvious you're not actually trying to work there though

what tense do i use for project descriptions? past tense? present tense?

[gilded valley]

if its ongoing, present

[nimble rampart]

is studying c# worth my time intersted in malware detection

[true harness]

just used it last week for that exact purpose 😳

[dense mesa]

Reading financial periodicals, doing a small project that involves finance, writing about finance on a personal blog

[true harness]

what if i'm describing an event that happened in the past but the project is ongoing 🤔. is it fine to have different tenses in the same project? feels a little weird to me

[summer roost]

It seems annoying and abusive to apply to jobs that you wouldn't take. I think it's ok if you're trying to leverage that job offer for a better offer from another company, but otherwise, making people waste time reviewing you when you don't plan to take the job just feels to me like you're deliberately making someone's job harder.

[dense mesa]

Doing CFA to work a tech role in finance is a pretty big opportunity cost (not gonna call it waste of time directly)

In an interview you can quite easily demonstrate an interest and understanding of the field with absolutely no financial qualifications

[nimble rampart]

ohh kkk ....soo c# 🤕

[gilded valley]

I'd just use the correct tenses

[gilded valley]

my current boss would probably see someone choosing to do the CFA of their own volition as a point against them.

not saying that generalises though

[dense mesa]

Basically this yeah

[vapid jay]

Oh.

[hearty island]

yeah i’ll stop. just wanted to test the waters and see if the capm had any weight. seems like it does.

[open cradle]

You mean ing vs ed? I had this exact same question a few days ago as well

[true harness]

that would be a choice one might make when deciding between past and present tense, yes

[round coral]

# Working on learning python as a beginner any tips on what I should do to help advance and learn more languages? I’m currently 14 on summer break

[buoyant seal]

Tell me about it. It is so exhausting. Interviewing candidates in Tech interviews consumes a lot of time, including extra time to process thoughts after interview and to make certainly thoughtful conclusion

[fervent grove]

what u mean by capm

[hearty island]

certified associate in project management

[fervent grove]

wild was it free?

[hearty island]

no. entire thing + practice test software was $400

[fervent grove]

uff

[fringe sphinx]

I would agree with that for a SWE role, altho op was looking to go into PM

[vapid jay]

This seems like a great book to study:
http://learnyouahaskell.com/

[fluid geyser]

For any tutors, does anyone a few ways to get clients without useing the online tutoring platforms?

[dense mesa]

Friends, family and extended network

[vapid jay]

This language looks terrible

never heard of it

I don't fuck around learning random languages I just stick with the couple I find best

First learned the basics but didn't really go in-depth, 3y ago
Between these I didn't do anything
Actually started as a hobby, 1y

Ok?

I don't see that as something to flex, if you're good at your hobby/profession time doesn't matter

No?

you just started flexing time out of nowhere, so I reacted. Kind of weird to just randomly bring it up

I've never heard the phrase "orz"in my entire life anywhere

[cerulean pumice]

Hey all.! I know I’m in a bit of a biased channel lol but if I wanted to get into the field of AGI and Machine Learning, which programming language would be best for that.? I have the choice to learn many languages but I want to learn the one more so catered to my career path or languages more sought by employers within my field. Thank you.!

[summer roost]

AI and ML jobs tend to require masters degrees, so your first goal should be to get at least a bachelors degree in Computer Science, Artificial Intelligence, or possibly Mathematics.

as far as languages go, Python tends to be the most heavily used. Second place might be C++? @peak halo would know more than me.

[peak halo]

I've literally never been asked to use not-python

Whatever the second place is, it's a very distant second.

[summer roost]

yeah, that's pretty much what I'd have figured.

[fringe sphinx]

I've seen a fair amount of java+spark in backend pipelines

[summer roost]

and I've seen C++ code that uses tensorflow

[delicate bane]

gotta go fast

[cerulean pumice]

I’m already in school for Computer Science 🥲 in any case thank you all :’)

[delicate bane]

nice! def look into electives or an ML concentration if your school offers it

[outer granite]

Is it realistic or likely that one can actually make money from coding through freelancing or no?

[summer roost]

we've got a pinned message about that. #career-advice message

[teal pulsar]

Hlo
i wanna publish some research paper or just want my name on some of it
i can help with anything

[proven crest]

I'd start by making some OS contributions

[proven crest]

Just saw that you're spamming this in multiple servers, with the same gramatical mistakes. If you want to publish a research paper, you have to do research. If you're spamming the same badly written sentence into multiple without searching anything about research papers or checking your basic grammar it tells me you're far from ready. Like I said, work on some OS contributions.

[vapid jay]

But pedagocially useful..

Own opinion or from data sources?

[proven crest]

I mean it’s common sense?

[vapid jay]

I would prefer a qualifier there. It is my belief that: X. Or.... a survey from company C on date D surfaced in published study S that... X

It is not common sense that there not be many mid-of-the-way consulting jobs at decent rates for typical techs, like Django or Flask. Not too specialised.. not too depreciated by competition. As a quick LinkedIn search reveals. So.. yes. I'd prefer a qualifier there.

[proven crest]

If you wanted to open a coffee shop on a street with 10 coffee shops that sell very cheep coffee and I told you that it could be difficult to compete and you might want to consider a different specialty would you ask for a survey or accept that it’s common sense?

[vapid jay]

There are consulting gigs live on LinkedIn which seem to command a decent salary and do not seem to feature extremely specialised technology so the statement is about relative distribution, claiming it's bi-modal. Source needed, I think.

freelancing is bimodal. On the one end of the spectrum, there are highly experienced consultants with specialized skills who can make very good money on projects that need their particular expertise. On the other end of the spectrum, there are low skilled freelancers who are doing something that anyone could learn to do after a few weeks or months - and they're competing for those low skilled jobs with people in countries with a very low cost of living, who can afford to do the job for next to nothing.

[proven crest]

Where’s the lie?

[vapid jay]

Seems like it should just say where the data comes from, because bimodality is about data distribution, and it's phrased quite categorically not to be backed up by an actual published survey?

Why? Isn't the data about jobs out there for anybody to see? Students or employed?

Asking for a qualifying statement is intellectual honesty. a) this is my opinion or b) this is what the latest StackOverflow developer survey surfaced..

Unaware of what pipelines are. What are they? And how do they relate to asking for a source? I think whatever they are I may, with study and humility, learn them?

[dense mesa]

Seems unnecessarily pedantic

[vapid jay]

Seems like a comment made on my person just because I said: "you are stating this as matter of fact, what's the source"?

Now hating is a strong sentiment and this is almost worthy of attention. Do you want to sound a little less like this, as I just asked "cite a source"?

Hate was a word I did not expect there

absolutely everyone will hate you

now this is really a lot as a personal attack

If we were in science, asking for a source would be just normal. Like when you write an essay and need to have a citations appendix. Here you get this:

absolutely everyone will hate you
... I think this is sad 😦

[grave hound]

@vapid jay

u are SO irritating, clearly narcacistic

[vapid jay]

More personal attacks. Sad.

[grave hound]

ur also obviously an alt

[proven crest]

Look at the reactions to your attitude, see that as a study that it is in the wrong and needs to change.

[vapid jay]

u are SO irritating, clearly narcacistic

I understand you wrote that without a spell checker. So I translated that in my head.

[vapid jay]

I only asked for a citation, right?
At school, they say citations are good. People should not be attacked to ask for them.
From Wikipedia:

Citations have several important purposes. While their uses for upholding intellectual honesty and bolstering claims are typically foregrounded in teaching materials and style guides (e.g.,[2][3]), correct attribution of insights to previous sources is just one of these purposes.[4]

[grave hound]

I cant say what I want to say in this discord

[vapid jay]

Also a personal attack to what was only a request for a citation? You are allowed to do that?

[proven crest]

You asked for a citation on common sense. Like I said, would you ask for a citation if you were told it could be difficult to compete if you open a coffee shop on a street with 10 low priced coffee shops.

What you were looking for is someone to reaffirm your belief, you see anything other than reaffirmation as an attack and fight against it. That doesn’t crate a helpful environment. If you don’t want to take the advise, that’s fine.

Let’s end this here because it’s off topic now and this isn’t the environment we want.

[vapid jay]

Still interested in what pipelines are, please. If you would.

[grave hound]

Still interested in what pipelines are, please, if you would.*

[proven crest]

Cmon now leave it

[grave hound]

too immature to let this mf slide

[proven crest]

I believe he’s referring to deployment pipelines or CI/CD

[grave hound]

I love hard metal pipes

[vapid jay]

I agree but careful in saying that I created the environment, because I did not. These are the things that have been said to me:

"you're delusional" by @vapid jay @ #career-advice message
"absolutely everyone will hate you" by @vapid jay @ #career-advice message
"u are SO irritating, clearly narcacistic" by @grave hound @ #career-advice message
"ur also obviously an alt" by @grave hound @ #career-advice message

In response to just:

Seems like it should just say where the data comes from, because bimodality is about data distribution, and it's phrased quite categorically not to be backed up by an actual published survey?

[grave hound]

@vapid jay
S u
h p
u
t

[vapid jay]

Yes?

[true harness]

<@&831776746206265384> (sorry bjokey)

[kind marsh]

!mute 1132758979739660439 2h That's not how you speak to other users in this server, take a break and re-read through our #code-of-conduct

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied timeout to @grave hound until <t:1690895883:f> (2 hours).

[tropic cargo]

hey guys i wna just ask is this book good for learning python has anyone learn from it and has any expirence from this book should i start python from this book thanks

[tropic cargo]

also suggest me some beginner books for python other than this

[vapid jay]

My subjective impression is that it is good

[vapid jay]

https://wiki.python.org/moin/IntroductoryBooks

[tropic cargo]

have you learned from it ?

[vapid jay]

Yes, but I haven't completed it

[tropic cargo]

how much did you learn from it ?

[vapid jay]

Not enough to justify the price, because other comparable resources have given me the same or more for free

The chasm between 0 USD and 1 USD is huge because many things cost 0 USD and do a lot so that the 1 USD resources have to work hard to beat the 0 USD dollars, for me. But it's subjective, as I don't ever have cash.

[tropic cargo]

can you suggest me some other resources or like some good books i am a beginner so i just starting out in python so dont know much about where to start

[vapid jay]

These books: https://wiki.python.org/moin/IntroductoryBooks

[tropic cargo]

thanks

[fringe sphinx]

!resources has several recommendations, including a byte of Python which is often recommended

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[tropic cargo]

thanks

[dense mesa]

It's a discussion channel in a discord server. If you want to be so academically stringent then you are free to peer review and find your own sources 🙂

[sudden patrol]

Is there a chance to land an Internship if I am 13 even though I have the exprience and the project?

[true harness]

there is a chance. not very probable, but yk. anything's possible

[fringe sphinx]

Very unlikely, and in some countries paid positions may not be allowed at that age

[near ocean]

not that any internship should require experience but what kind of experience and project do you have at 13

[fringe sphinx]

I’ll qualify my answer: perhaps via a family member or friend of the family, or via volunteer work (ie: volunteering at a coding camp or after school mentoring program)

[tranquil birch]

@queen thunder, refer to rules 6 and 9.

!rule 6 9

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[hearty island]

it's finally august. can't wait till september for job apps

although i will have the most luck probably in January, but January is too slim of a range to apply

[vapid jay]

Are they allowed to use Discord as a 13 years old person?

[peak halo]

that's the minimum allowed age, yes

[vapid jay]

I thought that a pinned message needed a stronger attribution as it will be used hundreds of times

[proven crest]

I’ve gone though most of Automate The Boring Stuff when I first started, and that was very good so I’d assume that would be too.

I’ve made a start on Clean Code which seems very good and it’s highly praised. I need to make more time to read. I think it would make more sense to start that once you have a good grasp of the fundamentals and can and independently wrote a few programs though.

[queen thunder]

Hi, I am open to work, Python expert and can help you.

[peak halo]

you can't look for work here, but you can ask for advice about seeking work elsewhere.

[tropic cargo]

should i start directly reading that book without practising fundamentals or it teaches you some fundamentals ?

[tropic cargo]

cuz i have been looking for a book which teaches me practically by implenting the concepts that i have learned

[fringe sphinx]

Projects are really where you'll reinforce what you've learned... it's hard to really "get" some concepts without trying to use them more completely.

[queen thunder]

I am looking for job opportunity.

[fringe sphinx]

!kindling has project ideas, to complement you're learning

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[proven crest]

Automate The Boring Stuff might be good in that case, it includes projects for you to build

[frozen bobcat]

guys so i applied to university and got accepted to computer engineering, first class is called intruduction to computer engineering studies
the second class is to choose by yourself depending what you wanna do
options are
Intruduction to C# programming (6 ects)
intruduction to web devolpment with javascript (4 ects)
inctruduction to python (5 ects)
Which one of these is the best one to get started?

[crimson lion]

bruv pick what u want

[analog sun]

Hello, your message has been removed for violating rule 6 and rule 9

[crimson lion]

python is easiest, but least useful imo

[near ocean]

since youre in a python server i'd recommend "intruduction to web devolpment with javascript (4 ects)" /s

[near ocean]

Why is it least useful?

[frozen bobcat]

but i dont wanna do web devolpment, i wanna do machine learning and machine vision

[near ocean]

pick python then, i was joking

youre in a python server asking what module to pick and one of them is python, it should be obvious what we would recommend

Why?

oh, we get a lot of "python sucks do x" kind of people here so i didnt pick that up

[frozen bobcat]

is there any general discord groups for all programming languages?

[dire tartan]

i think python's purpose is to make every other programming language look harder /s

[proven crest]

If you want to do machine learning, I’d say pick python.

C# isn’t a bad second choice as it’s a true object oriented language and starting with a statically typed language will teach you a lot.

Python is easy to pick up on your own, especially if you know C#.

Research the two and see which fits best in what you want to achieve. A lot of ML and AI’s are written in C++ and going from C# to C++ would be easier than Python to C++ AFAIK

[peak halo]

when ML/AI stuff is written in C++, that often means that the research and model training was done in Python, and then the model was exported in a format that can be used in C++

[peak halo]

are you prepared to get at least a bachelors and probably also a masters in CS or similar?

[proven crest]

Ah interesting, so what is actually written in C++?

[fringe sphinx]

As a new programmer/CS student, my advice is: you'll end up learning a little bit about a lot of things to build your foundation. After you have that, then worry about specialization.

[peak halo]

whatever software is using the model at deployment time. like, the software for an autonomous vehicle that's in the vehicle.

[proven crest]

I see interesting, I assumed a lot of the model itself would be leading to a potentially faster model

[delicate bane]

whisper.cpp

[proven crest]

I mean C++ is totally out of my scope anyway, but it’s something I’m interested in learning in the future. I think if I started with C++ or C# I would have found learning Python a lot easier than doing it this way round though

[dawn flume]

python. im a beginner myself and was able to learn the basics within a month. its really simple

[hearty island]

if i answered "tell me about yourself" with a story about how in high school i took a leadership role to raise funds for an orphanage and how it involved planning, coordinating activities, and managing various teams to ensure success... and also encountered unexpected obstacles like vendors cancelling and coordinating volunteer schedules... and then saying that it helped me grow my passion for project management because i enjoyed organizing tasks, collaborating with diff teams, and seeing projects come together...and then tying it to college and my project management/problem management internships

is that a good response?

like showing what got me passionate about project management in the first place?

i'm trying to practice interview responses so i can nail them when it's time

[buoyant seal]

First language makes large impact onto person.
My recommendation is C#

This language is wonderous in its computating raw power and easy static typed usage

It will teach good stuff, which will propagate for you into other languages

As a student, u will be able to do stuff in C#, impossible for other languages.
Still feeling nostalgia regarding my own its usage in uni

[fervent grove]

i guess from a business point of view thats not impressive

[fervent grove]

also gives most ects huehuehue

[hearty island]

not impressive how?

[buoyant seal]

With such interests u need to choose python though
But still recommending C# first 😉
U can grub python later anyway

[hearty island]

but then what's a good response to the question?

[fringe sphinx]

In the US, most university computer science programs are switching from Java to Python as the introductory language. I don't know of any programs that teach C# or Javascript as the first language.

[hearty island]

i thought if you highlight your passion for the role and what got you interested, it would be a good idea/ good response for the question

[pine sleet]

+1
I'm an incoming freshman and I'm supposed to take an introduction to python course 😔😩

[frozen bobcat]

Yeah, I am from Finland and got accepted to university of Jyväskylä

[fringe sphinx]

Oh good luck, I hear it's hard ... lol 😉

[hearty island]

good stories in an interview stick right?

[delicate bane]

spend time building a killer project instead (since obv yknow it pretty well already)

[frozen bobcat]

So judging by your responses
C# is harder and needs more time to learn and will help you more to learn other languages
Python is easier and can be learned from home

[true harness]

both are pretty easy, both will help you learn other languages

[frozen bobcat]

What are other benefits of learning python as your first language over c#

[fringe sphinx]

I'll try to summarize: Many developers disagree on what the "best" first language is. Educationally, my point was Python is a much more common first language than the others. There's no wrong answer, and no matter what you learn first, you'll learn more languages as your education progresses.

[frozen bobcat]

What are these algorithm 1 & 2 courses?

[fringe sphinx]

Share the curriculum or link plz... every University system is diff.

[frozen bobcat]

I don't think it's allowed to post links here

[fringe sphinx]

It is.

[frozen bobcat]

https://opinto-opas.jyu.fi/2023/fi/opintojakso/itka201/
https://opinto-opas.jyu.fi/2023/fi/opintojakso/tiea211/

[fringe sphinx]

google translating this tells me: this is what we call "data structures and algorithms"

a normal freshman course in any CS program.

[frozen bobcat]

oh i hate data analysis

or atleast it sounds so boring

[fringe sphinx]

then you're in for a lot of pain... you said "i wanna do machine learning and machine vision"

[frozen bobcat]

does that thing include data analysis

[fringe sphinx]

oh yah. lots.

[true harness]

data structures and algorithms doesn't involve much data analysis

[frozen bobcat]

oh well there are other fields to specialize in in masters, what do you guys think about networking.

[near ocean]

ML to networking is quite the jump, sounds like you dont know what you like

[frozen bobcat]

yeah that is true.

[near ocean]

well dont plan for a masters then before you figure it out

[fringe sphinx]

^ i'd suggest not worrying about specialties until 2nd or 3rd year, and just learn everything you can.

[frozen bobcat]

great point

[fringe sphinx]

I, for one, specialized at whatever I got my first job in.

[frozen bobcat]

what did you specialize in

[fringe sphinx]

data analysis 🙂

[frozen bobcat]

oh

[near ocean]

masters are barely specialisations anyway, you'll truly specialise once you start working

[fringe sphinx]

yah, my masters was just a bunch of additional classes, for the most part. good stuff, but not a specialization for sure.

[near ocean]

my masters was a year long (or short I guess) and what it did was bring finance people up to speed with python and tools and software people up to basic finance concepts

kind of a waste imho but i didnt exactly go to oxford

[frozen bobcat]

well uni here is free so its chill here.

[near ocean]

waste of time more than money, i graduated right as pandemic started
if i went into workforce earlier it'd be easier

[frozen bobcat]

oh that sounds really interesting, its called embedded systems and micro controllers.

[hearty island]

"I became interested in project management at an early age. In high school, I took a leadership role to raise funds for an orphanage. It involved planning, coordinating activities, and managing various teams to ensure success. I encountered obstacles like vendors canceling and coordinating volunteer schedules. From there, I started to realize my passion for project management because I enjoyed organizing tasks, collaborating with different teams, and seeing projects come together seamlessly. In college, I pursued multiple project management internships where I led my own projects, such as licensing a health insurance TPA across multiple states to ensure compliance with regulatory standards or leading a project in creating a Power Bi dashboard that helps executive problem managers evaluate junior problem manager performance. I also received my CAPM certificate for project management to gain more knowledge in the field. What I learned during those internships were years ahead of what I studied in college and working there further cemented my desire to work for a company whose mission is tied to developing relationships across a community. Today, I’m looking to build on my knowledge of project management with a company that values teamwork, integrity, innovation, and excellence. And based on my past experience, I strongly believe I can add a lot of value to your company."

that's the sample response i wrote to tell me about yourself

maybe i'm just overthinking all of this, but i don't want to wing my interviews

[frozen bobcat]

i am just really scared of those math classes, calc 1 2 3, linear algebra and geometry 1 discrete math, matrix algebra, bayes, complex analysis, data and measurement.

[sterile vault]

What's the best way to earn first world salaries as a digital nomad?
I have about 2YOE + ~two years of freelancing, but fully remote (no visa) offers for middle level roles I see top out at ~2.5-3k/month after taxes.
Which is 36k/year, and it seems rather low compared to salaries people discuss in US and Canada (about 60-80k/year for low end roles).

[hearty island]

i should test this out and see what i should leave in or leave out

[fervent grove]

do not memorize it if u really want to highlight it do it more freely

[fringe sphinx]

Eh, it's just one class at a time. You took lots of math classes in high school, each of which were probably scary before you took it, right?

[hearty island]

no, but i should have a general idea of what i'm going to say

[dense mesa]

Experience in what industry?

[sterile vault]

Python development, data pipelines in biotech.

Generally biotech is on the low end of tech salaries, unfortunately

[lethal void]

Hey guys, I need some ideias, I need find a job, my company just did a lay off, and guess what, I'm in, and I would like to make an project to put on my github, but I have no ideia what would be nice to creat to put there to show my habilities. Can you help me give some ideias?

[fringe sphinx]

I can't help you with the direct question, but I'll say: questions like "what's the best way" are unlikely to yield useful information since it's both unanswerable and requires a lot of guessing about other peoples experiences. Maybe a more direct question about someones personal experience might be more insightful.

[dense mesa]

Yeah it's not great for consulting. I'm biased but would recommend consulting for financial services companies, there's always healthy demand for these services in developed countries

[sterile vault]

Okay, more direct question.
Does anyone have a job that earns 80+$k WITHOUT having right to work (visa, citisenship) in either Canada or USA?
How did you get it?

Yeah, biotech deals with quite a bit of sensitive patient data, so few compaties hire contractors.
What hard skills are most in-demand for contracting? I think cloud/devops stuff (develop microservice and deploy it on say, AWS) it a good gateway for juicy contracts.

[dense mesa]

In demand skills would be fairly location dependent

[true harness]

same with salary

[sterile vault]

Yeah, but local salaries kind of suck, so I want to break into worldwide market. Preferably without having to move in HCOL area before getting a job.

[dense mesa]

Getting work permits and/or visas to work internationally can be very complex

[frozen bobcat]

biotech is one of the worst technical fields unfortunately

[fringe sphinx]

I have no data to support this, but I think if I were in this situation: I’d invest part of my time in contributing to an open source project in my target field.

Something already used by industry. It’s a longer term play, but that might get you on the radar of hiring managers. It’s not easy.

[vapid jay]

Hello! I'm currenlty entering the 2nd year as a CS major. I go to university in a third world country and unfortunately there are no clubs to join. My college also has no upperclassmen in CS as the CS department opened last year. So I am no left unsure as what I'm supposed to be doing in order to succeed in my career. I understand that most materials for programming are available online but its just that I have no idea where to start and it always feels like people elsewhere are a hundred steps ahead. Any tips would be appreciated.

[dense mesa]

Are you able to open a CS club?

[vapid jay]

theoretically i could but it wouldn't be easy as no new clubs have opened for years and several of my collegues tried but the uni shut them down for some reason

[dense mesa]

It can always be informal and unofficial, any initiatives you start will look good

[vapid jay]

To whom

[vapid jay]

understand that most materials for programming are available online but its just that I have no idea where to start

Learn this:
http://learnyouahaskell.com/

[dense mesa]

Is this a serious question

[dense mesa]

Not sure how this is relevant when they're asking for career advice in a python discord. Haskell isn't really used in industry

[vapid jay]

Yes. To whom? Prospective employers? Club members? Other?

[vapid jay]

I personally believe that completing that book makes for a good foundation in programming and thus a great start in a career in programming

[fringe sphinx]

There are many paths. Hang out here long enough and you’ll see all sorts of different ideas: some people focus on DSA and leetcode, others in projects, others on contributing to open source, etc. there’s lots of ways you can improve your skills and knowledge

[fringe sphinx]

I would suggest hanging out in #python-discussion for a week and you’ll get a new perspective

[vapid jay]

I’m not looking to learn a new language rn as I’d like to be more proficient in the ones I currently know. I’m currently looking into books with languages i currently know though. Rn I’m looking to start “the C++ programming language”

[dense mesa]

Python is relatively easier to pick up and has a lot of applications with low barrier to entry

[vapid jay]

Any tips on what to start with?

[vapid jay]

Alright. I hadn't realised you wanted a book on a language you already know. Then if you know C++.. a book on C++.

[vapid jay]

Open-source contributions sound good to me.

[fringe sphinx]

It kinda doesn’t matter: whatever you want, as long as you learn something you don’t know and you’re enjoying it. Projects are best, and pick projects that challenge you.

[vapid jay]

I already know python and C++ so I’m not learning from scratch. I thought I would focus on C++ as I’m leaning more towards app dev and not data science or the like. Would you still recommend python?

[fringe sphinx]

Me, I’m a data guy, so I’d always suggest a ML project using sklearn, opencv or tensorflow/keras/PyTorch/whatever.

[vapid jay]

Could I learn python and C++ in junior year of HS while taking SAT prep and 6 AP classes and holding down a job?(aka 2023-2024)

[dense mesa]

You could get a decent project done much quicker in Python than C++. If you're looking to boost your applications for job roles, I'd focus on starting a club or society to do collaborative projects within

[dense mesa]

May as well pick one and do it well

[fringe sphinx]

That doesn’t seem like a serious q.

[vapid jay]

Why not both? I’m serious

[fringe sphinx]

And if it is, we don’t know you. I know my kids couldn’t.

[dense mesa]

Why both to begin with? Just focus on one, get proficient then pick up the other afterwards

[vapid jay]

Alright thanks all

[vapid jay]

I have a lot of free time and I’m trying to get my family out the poor side of Brooklyn

[vapid jay]

Is the choice between C++ and Python only? Then either.

[lucid vapor]

you could try. it won't be easy, and you should be worried about burning yourself out, but you can try.

[vapid jay]

You’re right

[vapid jay]

I’ll rather work till I die rather than see my family still poor

[lucid vapor]

burning yourself out to the point where you're unable to work is not going to be good for your mental health, and will make all of those things go bad

[near ocean]

the fastest way out of poverty is with good education

[vapid jay]

It’s either that or I do what my friends do and sell drugs and scam credit cards…

[vapid jay]

That’s why I’m taking as much AP classes I can

[fringe sphinx]

IMO, It’ll make no difference in your college journey if you learn 0,1,2 languages.

[near ocean]

so focus on that, you're not going to use python to make money at this point anyway

[vapid jay]

Mental health is something I’ve never had problems with after like 11 years old😭

[dense mesa]

That's a very unsustainable perspective

[vapid jay]

Can you elaborate please? I see people on YouTube with no college degree making 6 figures using computer programming languages and stuf

[lucid vapor]

that's incredibly hard to do

getting a college degree drastically boosts your chances of getting your foot in the door (the industry)

[near ocean]

for each of these youtube clowns there are thousands who went that way and never made it
you dont hear about them

[vapid jay]

You’re right…

[fringe sphinx]

I call BS on that. YouTube is a wretched hive of scum and villainy

[dense mesa]

These people are almost definitely exaggerating, if not straight up lying

[vapid jay]

So what do you guys prefer? Like stay in school and get a good education or do the original plan but just learn one language?

[near ocean]

stay in school of course, thats not even a question

[vapid jay]

damn…I had to get 3 jobs just to have $500 left over and these guys are lying over anything

[fringe sphinx]

If you want to be a SWE, you need a college degree. Period. (Yes, there are verrrrrry rare exceptions)

[lucid vapor]

focus on doing well in school right now, ensuring that your mental health is all right, and then go to university and get a degree

[vapid jay]

But I don’t want to see my family like this anymore I don’t want to wait

[dense mesa]

Welcome to life unfortunately

[fringe sphinx]

There are many paths to a degree, however.

[lucid vapor]

you can get into university without being a super amazing programmer before you start

[lucid vapor]

you're not going to get a programming job that's going to pay very well in high school (or even at all, probably), period

and without a degree, you still won't, unless you're incredibly lucky/good

[vapid jay]

Damn…

So should I just focus on school only? I want to make money I’m tired of waiting

[lucid vapor]

you don't really have a choice

you can't make (a lot of) money without school

[fringe sphinx]

Certainly not the big bucks you hear about

[vapid jay]

Damn it

[vapid jay]

I’ll make a name for myself

[true harness]

yep. i had a similar course load, and many of my friends had the same course load with jobs

[vapid jay]

So what do u think? Focus on school or learn python on top of everything else?

[true harness]

school first definitely. besides, school isn't too difficult to not have free time for python on the side

[vapid jay]

No like I’m trying to have the best classes, bunch of extra curricular and stuff, so I can go into a good college or uni

[true harness]

focusing on school first is part of how you get into a good uni

[vapid jay]

Thank you🙏

[smoky gazelle]

I freelanced this summer and made websites for clubs at my uni, between research and being a teaching assistant, which do i replace on my resume? (no space)

[true harness]

whichever demonstrates skills better

[smoky gazelle]

i suppose thats true

[gritty rivet]

It depends in part on what jobs you're applying to... different jobs may warrant different versions of your resume

[vapid jay]

So you still believe in tailored resumes Vs same resume sent more times, blindly? I believe in the latter. Quantity over alleged quality

[smoky quest]

The former can make a huge difference.
It also doesn't have to be specific to each job but could be done at an archetype level

[vapid jay]

Describe what would be an "archetype" customisation

[smoky quest]

like react frontend

[keen lintel]

hi guys i have a problem with a list index out of range, someone can help me?

[vapid jay]

Gays?

[smoky quest]

Hi!
You are asking in the wrong place. You may want to check #❓｜how-to-get-help

[keen lintel]

guys** sorry haha

[keen lintel]

thanks

[leaden jasper]

To expand on this, I have a "master" level resume that has everything. I will then trim that down to better match a job listing and tweak some skills/wording to better fit what would pass the ATS & HR check. It doesn't take too much time to do and does get me a a fairly good response rate.

Caveat: I work in engineering, not software. So there are some inherent differences there.

If you send out 1,000 resumes but you're never passing the threshold bar, then quantity doesn't get you very far. Spending more time tailoring even 1/10th of those resumes can get you past the hurdle to the interview.

[blazing cove]

what to learn to get a job as soon as possible?

[safe coral]

nothing @blazing cove

[true harness]

in software development?

[safe coral]

you need a degree! I know python R java sql and still unemployed

[blazing cove]

in anything related to python really

[safe coral]

you also need experience

[blazing cove]

i'm really sorry to hear this 😦
can someone remove slowmode?

[safe coral]

yeah I have 3 bachelors degree

[blazing cove]

and still no job?

[true harness]

3 bachelor's degrees isn't better than 1 bachelor's, though. and it's all about how you can show that you have skills, not how much actual education you have

[safe coral]

I studied Data Science, Linguistics and CyberSecurity with Computer Science

[blazing cove]

but isn't that because you're not specialised in something?

[safe coral]

how am I supposed to show my skills if I cant get hired? @true harness

[blazing cove]

this is true

[true harness]

resume

[safe coral]

how does a student fresh out of college show that?

[true harness]

projects, internships

[safe coral]

I had internship

[true harness]

how's your resume? send a screenshot

[blazing cove]

do you wanna work for me? @safe coral

[safe coral]

did school projects but they ask for at leats 4 years of experience

[blazing cove]

so it's impossible to get employed

[true harness]

that is not the case

[summer roost]

we have people report success stories in this channel all the time, so it's certainly not impossible

[blazing cove]

how do i make sure i will get employed? is there something to dive into?

[safe coral]

its luck @blazing cove

[true harness]

go to college, get internships, do cool projects

[safe coral]

i did all those and got nowhere @true harness

[blazing cove]

i'm a believer in luck
today i went to over 20 car mechanic shops asking to learn with them but got rejected lol

[fringe sphinx]

I just hired a junior, straight out of school. Had a junior year internship with another company, but primarily just had coursework projects to show. In fact, he said he learned from Automate, and his first project was using Pygame.

[safe coral]

i applied over 200 jobs in a yearlol

[true harness]

"over 200" ?

[safe coral]

i mean in 2 months

its my age. I had an interview with Comcast. The guy said he didnt know I was 35 and out of college

[summer roost]

believing this is just giving up your own agency. If you believe that nothing that you do or have done in any way affects your odds of landing a job, there's no reason to keep trying to improve yourself.

[fringe sphinx]

The tough party is: the only reason I interviewed him was because he knew someone I knew. Despite a pile of LinkedIn resumes.

[true harness]

for an internship? or a full time job

[safe coral]

full time job

[true harness]

was it for an entry level position then? it doesn't really make sense otherwise

[safe coral]

it was

[true harness]

but didn't you say you had 7 years of experience? why entry level at that point?

[safe coral]

they said they were looking for someone with a room for improvement as they get older

[blazing cove]

so they rejected you cause of your age? that's so rude

[celest kite]

I'm pretty sure it's illegal in most states to say that

[true harness]

only if you're above 40

[summer roost]

but, if they don't know your age and they're just eyeballing, you could get them to shit in their pants by asking if they realize that age is a protected class for hiring

[safe coral]

I mean I can work at 7-11 as a cashier

[blazing cove]

what does protected class mean?

[celest kite]

Age discrimination is illegal

[true harness]

you can't decide to hire or not hire someone based on certain characteristics, e.g. race, gender, etc. age is one of them if you meet certain criteria. in the US

[blazing cove]

this is heart warming

[safe coral]

actually my friend's father offered me a cashier job at 7-11 for 13 dollars an hour

if I cant get a job I will just take that

[blazing cove]

i love this 😯

[safe coral]

I literally messaged everyone on LinkedIn after I applied positions with their company

noone returned my messages

[smoky quest]

not surprising

[summer roost]

from the point of view of how to maximize your chances of being hired, it does seem bad if the interviewer expected you to be 20 years younger than you are, since it does suggest that your resume does a poor job of explaining what you've been doing with your life

[blazing cove]

my brother told me your hard work will pay off and i believed him it's just a matter of time

[safe coral]

heres my resume @summer roost

[smoky quest]

if you spam the entire company after applying, you will very likely come as a combination of desperate and annoying.

[fringe sphinx]

Hard work is only one piece. Risk taking/tolerance, learning the business/big picture, luck, etc all have roles

[fringe sphinx]

I know plenty of engineers who are unhirable despite working hard (on some legacy tech) and doing the right thing for their companies

[celest kite]

So you're saying if I spammed you you wouldn't interview me?

[smoky quest]

nope

[safe coral]

I didnt spam @smoky quest I only messaged once to the recruiter

thats it

[blazing cove]

true

[smoky quest]

that's not how I was reading #career-advice message

oh you meant on a per application

[safe coral]

like every recruiter of different companies I applied to @smoky quest

[smoky quest]

yeah. Makes more sense

[safe coral]

so my resume is that boring? @summer roost

[blazing cove]

have you tried applying for web scrapping jobs? i think they will hire you you got skills dude

[blazing cove]

no it's actually speaks for itself
if i had a company i will hire you

[celest kite]

Those literally pay less than 7-11

[true harness]

web scraping jobs don't really exist

[blazing cove]

just for the startup

[blazing cove]

i can't make any money with that skill???

[true harness]

there probably are jobs where you use webscraping, but that won't be the focus of your responsibilities

[safe coral]

did you see my resume @true harness

its not good enough?

[summer roost]

I'm a bit confused by the layout. Is that 2 columns, with the contact info in a white-on-black column and the rest black on white? I've heard that Applicant Tracking Systems tend to struggle with two column layouts, so that might be one possible reason for low callback rates.

[safe coral]

its not two columns

[summer roost]

oh, then I'm confused about what I'm looking at - the contact info on the first image seems to be to the left of the experience section?

[safe coral]

yup

I mean I have to fill out their resume builder anyway when I apply for jobs

[blazing cove]

guys i have an idea and give me feedback
there are a lot of programmers here let's open a company and hire developers like Burrito and find tasks for everyone

[celest kite]

Can we not and say we did?

[blazing cove]

wdym??

i think it's impossible for 10 people like you to gather somewhere and not find a solution

[summer roost]

what sort of jobs are you applying for, @safe coral?

[safe coral]

Data Analyst, Data Science @summer roost

[true harness]

the text for your skills and the text for your experience is not in 2 columns?

[celest kite]

Entry level though?

[safe coral]

yeah

[blazing cove]

if i put @celest kite @safe coral @true harness @fringe sphinx @summer roost in an empty company they will find a solution to make it grow and benefit

[safe coral]

entry mid level @celest kite and yeah you are right @true harness

[true harness]

(one more ping and that'd be an automute 😬 )

[blazing cove]

it's not good idea?

why would you mute me i didn't do anything i only pinned people who were participating in the discussion @true harness

[celest kite]

Here's the thing that I find confusing. The job listings don't exactly read like an entry level of experience. So if I'm a recruiter looking at this I see all these jobs and sure; you just got your degree... But why are you at my shop looking for entry level?

[safe coral]

I mean most jobs I applied for are not entry level anyway @celest kite

[blazing cove]

😡 i thought you were cool at first but now you're threatening me cause you have powers over me

[celest kite]

PSVM is definitely not cool.

[safe coral]

https://www.indeed.com/viewjob?jk=252592617caf8e38&tk=1h6pvok98iqv7800&from=hp&advn=8635498472029315&adid=267659949&ad=-6NYlbfkN0DGG98dY_oVsWj5fFkfZEVzGju6E28QqrYBIZilQbWUds-vv0Xe8U5smQY9lzdbaTp33_Kfw01dQ9uQv3KihkNHA73UHWFveaao37U7bdjKT7NeVy2IbgstuOpe66VoGMbfQ93qzqJMX165ghvKDUrn2cyhZH6J_Nx4uqIiqEATdSCU7Xi_E8fSNPd_HlagzNnSWh2u-l6mvuYs3vvgNg5Mxdd7mNfyUZGrWXbM22As0DXhCk04PzCs0V8MOJS4cCF7NFNljVr3etksxaAOlnWTWfX0ZH_hH2pX7uUe8dQ96uAw1l-ThiqBVcy9OgK7rJpSBeCbMZ0P111AY10ybvOd31az7qYyRO1rRFVteZx2UGWvKLvWReGV_-GOWPnYFvUJev53iN_o3fJgJsTosjVX3ahO0WmxK06OkNvo_io8RosdsnrgbORo6usVDoEA9wpULdfC6znISd1Ph4w29zmg&sjdu=zF9el-Ec4Q32UMM6VaKvY2_ouksQflpe1onJklQzpzDzNVlx2tyNmrAA0NdHDWGoDkXfOIWzNaZTPZV3kECZ6A&acatk=1h6pvposci3rr802&pub=4a1b367933fd867b19b072952f68dceb&xkcb=SoCp-_M3MZ3tRG2QzB0MbzkdCdPP&vjs=3

[celest kite]

Holy link from all that is ungodly

[safe coral]

for example jobs like this @celest kite

[celest kite]

Strong MS Office proficiency including Excel.```

💀

[true harness]

how does that work then?

[safe coral]

I mean thats not a good resume? Im confused

[true harness]

i'm just wondering about the layout. i think if you simply put your skills and other contact info inline with your experience, you could save a lot of space

[safe coral]

hmm let me see

like this? @true harness

[true harness]

yeah. but not all in bullets, just a single (or 2 or 3) bullet and comma separated list. and your education should be in reverse chronological order

[safe coral]

well most of them have 3 bullets

[celest kite]

Also; phone number reveal.

[safe coral]

except the most recent one

[true harness]

i'm still talking about your skills for this one

[blazing cove]

i don't think all this details matter?

[celest kite]

It's literally all that matters

[blazing cove]

really??

[celest kite]

Yeah. Humans don't do the initial resume screening at 99% of places. So if the computer isnt picking up what you're laying down; a human never even lays eyes on it

[summer roost]

ok, data science is not my field, but taking a look at your resume:

• Two columns is less likely to be parsed successfully by an ATS than one
• You bury the education information on the second page, making it harder for interviewers to see that you've got that Data Science degree, when that's headline information you should be advertising
• Your bullets are very wordy. I'm not sure you have enough content to warrant more than a 1 page resume
• Some of the bullets are very repetitive. For instance, "Developed business models using scikit-learn and keras to improve existing business models in the hotel, creating better outcomes for the business procedures" uses the word "business" three times and "models" twice. I've read that sentence a few times, and as far as I can tell the "to improve existing business models in the hotel" clause isn't contributing any new information.
• Some of the bullets seem to just be buzzword bingo, which also makes them very hard to read. "Conducted statistical analysis to understand the performance of public school students in Columbia and Montour counties in Pennsylvania using various techniques such as ANOVA, F statistics, hypothesis testing, and Tukey's Range Test using RStudio." doesn't tell me anything about whether the analysis that you did was useful or what outcomes came from it, and it's a very difficult sentence to read
• I'm left wondering how teacher productivity increases were measured...

I think this is an OK resume, but I think it's poorly structured. Information about what skills and technologies you have experience with is scattered throughout all the bullets instead of collected in an easy-to-skim section of its own. Information about your education is tough to find, in the middle of the second page.

I'm not sure what the standards are for projects in the data science space, so I'm not gonna weigh in on your github projects...

[safe coral]

well I did 1 page and sent it to Indeed Resume Center. They said my resume didnt have enough bullet points @summer roost

[summer roost]

I'm skeptical that having a 2 page resume is beneficial if you're targetting entry level data science jobs

[safe coral]

well entry - mid level @summer roost

most jobs I apply to are mid levels actually

there are no entry level jobs out there

I remember @fringe sphinx telling me using technical words and stuff to stand out so they recruiter knows I am familiar with the field

[vapid jay]

Rather than saying what's wrong, could you show how to write it "right according to you"?

[summer roost]

that's good advice in general, but I think you've taken it much too far, making it seem like you're just trying to cram keywords into the resume rather than to clearly communicate what work you did.

[safe coral]

so basically I did tons of visualization during my last job along with predictive analysis

I would present my visualization in the meetings to the general manager

and write a report so that he knows where we need to focus on to increase hotel revenue

[vapid jay]

It was all clear to me reading your wording.

[safe coral]

or increase guest retention

we would come up with a solution like hey people like this more in the breakfast menu because our guest feedback is more positive and bla bla

or we would be like we are losing money on trail mixes at the hotel so we need to remove or replace it with something more lucrative

for our corner shop

[summer roost]

It's tough to write bullets for something that I don't know much about, but taking these 2 for example:

• Conducted statistical analysis to understand the performance of public school students in Columbia and Montour counties in Pennsylvania using various techniques such as ANOVA, F statistics, hypothesis testing, and Tukey's Range Test using RStudio.
• Created visualizations using ggplot and lattice on R to demonstrate complex data to Columbia Montour Chamber of Commerce members, helping them in their decision-making process to improve student performance in schools post-COVID-19.

It seems like these could be better written as

• Conducted various statistical analyses of public school students' performance using RStudio
• Created visualizations using ggplot and lattice on R to illustrate these analyses
• This information was used by the Columbia Montour Chamber of Commerce to improve post-COVID-19 student performance by (how?)

[safe coral]

well they looked at the visualization and report we presented

and decided what subjects the kids were having trouble with post covid so teacher focused on those subjects more heavily

to increase student performance for the upcoming year

[summer roost]

does the chamber of commerce have some say over what teachers focus on? I thought chambers of commerce were business organizations...

[safe coral]

they didnt know if students were trending down with their science scores so they decided to focus more on science to increase tudent performace

yeah but they were using the data we prepared to the head masters at schools

https://github.com/atschlecht/StateTestingAnalysis it is actually here @summer roost

[summer roost]

ok, so then:

• This information was presented by the Columbia Montour Chamber of Commerce to local school administrations to help improve post-COVID-19 student performance
  or something like that.

[vapid jay]

What is interesting in your reformulation of:

Conducted statistical analysis to understand the performance of public school students in Columbia and Montour counties in Pennsylvania using various techniques such as ANOVA, F statistics, hypothesis testing, and Tukey's Range Test using RStudio.

to:

Conducted various statistical analyses of public school students' performance using RStudio

is that you actually lost in your quest for brevity the part of the sentence which would be hard to write not knowing anything about the technologies.

I could write this:

Conducted various statistical analyses

without any knowledge of statistics (as I really have none)

but I could not write the other sentence as it includes names of actual things that apply in that context.

So, in a sense, you made the sentence such that I could fake it easier, with less effort and/or research.

What does a statistician do? "Conducted various statistical analyses". Hm. Then is "Do stats", shorter than that still, a further upgrade?

[summer roost]

my assumption is that information about which particular analyses proved useful is something that conveys little information to someone reading the resume. Like I said, this isn't my field, so if you know more than me I'd be happy to be corrected.

[vapid jay]

@safe coral I'd take that advice with a pinch of salt after seeing the proposed reformulation. Seems like it's a matter of taste to appeal to those who dislike seeing names of concrete things and think of that as "buzzwords". I'd like to know that you found a path using A* rather than just "found a path" or "goal reached". A* is useful information, to me.

[summer roost]

that's interesting - why so?

[vapid jay]

I know nothing about stats.

I just noticed that you elided all the harder-to-fake words and proposed "Conducted various statistical analyses" as an upgrade to "techniques such as ANOVA, F statistics, hypothesis testing, and Tukey's Range Test" which is at least controversial as a choice, in my view.

[vapid jay]

Why I'd prefer to see A* to not seeing it?

[summer roost]

yes

[vapid jay]

Well, where does one stop in removing detail is what I am asking myself

[fringe sphinx]

I’ve been following along, it’s a fine line: ultimately, this should be a one page resume and is verbose. I like that it conveys the technical details and skills, but it does need to be edited down.

Also, it may be that certain skills might be better for a skills section, especially ones that are somewhat assumed fundamentals for data science (ie: Anova). I don’t hire data scientists, so can’t really comment on that.

[vapid jay]

"I used Docker images from Git tags to keep GitLab CI in sync with local pytest harness and run the tests on AWS via ECR" is the extreme A. Drop one word at a time and it's just the other extreme B: "Got reproducible cloud builds". I am not sure closer to B is better than closer to A. Do you think so?

[summer roost]

my general position on resumes is that the goal of a resume is to serve as a poster advertising a job candidate. Like other forms of advertising, it needs to be a tight pitch that doesn't include unnecessary or distracting information, and instead focuses on the most relevant and most flattering facts. Data Science isn't my field, as I said, but my assumption is that the statistical methods mentioned above are average par-for-the-course things that any data scientist would think to apply, and that highlighting them does nothing to explain why you are a better choice to hire than someone else would be. I don't know what F statistics or Tukey's Range Test are, but I do know ANOVA and hypothesis testing, and they don't strike me as essential to the work being described. They seem like basic skills that anyone would bring to bear on the problem.

[summer roost]

I am not sure closer to B is better than closer to A.
It does seem like we could both agree that somewhere in the middle is better than either? One is too much detail, one is too little.

[safe coral]

So I shouldn’t mention any of those? @summer roost

No technical terms required?

I should just say used various statistical methods?

Instead of giving the names of the methods

[vapid jay]

Sure, but your proposal was:

Conducted various statistical analyses of public school students' performance using RStudio

and this doesn't do much, does it?

Does not speak about impact scale, benefit, ... it's just removing the words they used.

This idea of "par for the course" seems interesting, if you expand on it.

For a software engineering position, for example, what do you consider "par for the course" and what not?

Specifically, would you write this?

Wrote various algorithms ... <...> ... using VS Code

which would be similar to:

Conducted various statistical analyses of public school students' performance using RStudio

[vapid jay]

At your peril, but you could, yes

[summer roost]

I'm not an expert in your field, so taking my advice with a grain of salt is definitely a good idea, but: I don't think there's enough content here, or enough relevant work experience, to justify two pages. I'd be trimming things down and trying to reach one full page instead, and likely dropping your oldest job off the list in order to do so (and to combat discrimination, honestly). I'd try to highlight the technical skills by expanding your skills section and giving that some more space.

[safe coral]

So I shouldn’t disclose my age?

[summer roost]

Does not speak about impact scale, benefit, ... it's just removing the words they used.
Indeed, and that's why I avoided suggesting any bullets until you pressed me on it: I don't know how to describe impact/scale/benefit for these things. I think that what they posted has a lot of extraneous detail in that, but you're right, just removing that doesn't make for great bullets, either - ideally we'd want things that make a better sales pitch instead, and I don't know what those things are to be able to add them.

[safe coral]

I mean make them guess my age lol

[vapid jay]

Ok, this is a more sensible position. @safe coral consider this retraction. No, "just removing" doesn't do much.

If you had a code repo with some of your work or some FOSS contribution would be better. Also for the world.

[summer roost]

oh, I didn't realize RStudio is an IDE, I incorrectly assumed it was a framework or something. I wouldn't mention that at all then, except possibly in a "skills" section. I don't think what IDE you used belongs in your job bullets

[safe coral]

I have a GitHub @vapid jay

[vapid jay]

Let's see it

[safe coral]

It’s on the resume @vapid jay

[summer roost]

https://github.com/KadirOrcunAltunel/

[vapid jay]

Well, parts of me wants to like it very much @safe coral but part of me is a bit troubled by the bad copy implementation of this standard library function:
https://docs.python.org/3/library/statistics.html#statistics.mean

here:
https://github.com/KadirOrcunAltunel/CovidAndAirTravel/blob/main/covidandairtravel.py#L24C1-L26C27

That's troublesome because as a stats person you should know that there is a robust implementation at your fingertips and that if you roll your own and bomb immediately on a divide by zero because you divide by len(x) for a sequence of unknown length... if that's your code that is... you are showing something that was probably best kept hidden, so... I do wonder whether you actually need a better portfolio.

The point above is not the only one I noticed. But.. it could be code in your GitHub which you haven't even written yourself. I don't know how GitHub works.

[vapid jay]

Get yourself perhaps just only one project on there and make it a good one. Where reasonable things are done reasonably.

[safe coral]

Oh that one was a class project @vapid jay

We had to use certain methods

I wouldn’t look at that one that much @vapid jay It’s really old

[summer roost]

you can pin particular projects on github to drive peoples' attention to the ones you most want to show off

[opaque cape]

hello! where can I post a tutorial made by me without spamming?

[crimson lion]

on youtube

[iron summit]

Ayo question to employed ITs. What's the most benefitial/usefull skill one should learn to, so it's easier getting well-paid job (mainly for back-end dev)

[buoyant seal]

clarify job role

[buoyant seal]

• most useful skill is to learn
  • unit testing
  • above middle rank level of SQL skills, postgresql, mariadb. Getting strong raw SQL skills
• but for getting well-paid job and going beyond regular skills that are already must to learn, it is the most beneficial to learn high level of AWS (being good with its networking, IAM, EC2, spot instances, ECS, EKS, S3, Route53, RDS, ElasticCache, Lambdas, Event Bridge, SES, SQS and etc what is common there)

[iron summit]

Alr ty pal. Looks like a i have many things to learn. Too bad schools teach monke basics ;)

[buoyant seal]

https://discordapp.com/channels/267624335836053506/366673702533988363/1135971547681673286 recount more full list recently.
https://discordapp.com/channels/267624335836053506/366673702533988363/1079139724825997364 dropped materials to learn essential software engineering skills

AWS it is already beyond regular skill set that is the most useful and greatly improving marketing value
other skills that are essential, are assumed by default that will be learnt before that

[sudden patrol]

any thing from chat bots to face and hand recoginition (for deef people) and a TON more

ya by exprience I meant projects and a bit of free lancing

[vapid jay]

Then... should it be where it is?

[vapid jay]

My personal opinion is: the skills that you pick up from working through this book http://learnyouahaskell.com/

[near ocean]

Haskell is great and all but how would that help them with getting a job? Haskell jobs arent exactly in demand and I doubt people would care if youre some haskell wizard if you cant work with other tech

[vapid jay]

I think getting a job is more about the person you are in terms of current skills and ability to learn new skills than the particular frozen set of skills you have at time t = 0 when they call you for an interview. Even for a typical job, they may send you a take home assignment in which you have to use an unknown library L, which you'll learn better or worse, faster or slower, depending on the person you have become through studying. Haskell is good in making one ready to learn the things one has to learn all the time, to interview and on the job. A memorised set of "braindump" questions to an AWS certification is, in comparison, less useful, in my opinion.

There are also other things that that book teaches that are relevant in general discussions about current topics, such as immutability, distributed computing, testable software, etc.

But the #1 thing is what kind of person you are after reading it Vs what kind of person you are likely to be once you complete the AWS Level 1 exams of whatever certification path one wants to take.

[proven crest]

Hold on you were talking about using AI to problem solve and answer questions instead of learning to independently problem solve and read documentation, now you’re saying that the top skill you can have is the latter?

[vapid jay]

No. I was saying that AI is a great tutor for humans and it may probably be a better pick than asking other humans for the purposes of learning. That's what I said. More patience, more speed, often more depth and an average higher level of competence than an average programmer. And none of the type of remarks that I read here yesterday, mentioning "hate", for example.

[vapid jay]

Also I did not say that "reading documentation" is the "top skill". You seem to manufacture an agreement to something you said in the past?

[proven crest]

How do you learn to work with a new library other than going through the documentation?

[vapid jay]

An AI would not tell a human these hurtful, gratuitous things, in a discussion:

"you're delusional" by @vapid jay @ #career-advice message
"absolutely everyone will hate you" by @vapid jay @ #career-advice message
"u are SO irritating, clearly narcacistic" by @grave hound @ #career-advice message
"ur also obviously an alt" by @grave hound @ #career-advice message

which clearly could make a sensitive person decide to give up on learning if the path is so fraught with personal attacks.

AIs can be great tutors, better than humans for skill (as per that paper I linked) and certainly for tact.

The question is rather: with AIs being so much kinder, patient and actually often more skilled.. is there a pressure on programming jobs that may make many of them obsolete as an AI can do them better and without the drama which I quoted above? Without needing a Mod to silence a person for conduct?

[proven crest]

Telling someone to shut up is unacceptable, I agree. But a lot of those comments lack the context that they were given in. Sure they could have shown more tact, but telling you that the attitude you have wouldn’t not be accepted by your peers in a professional environment is both true and relevant. Telling you that you’re being narcissistic might not be nice to hear, and you’re right, an AI probably won’t pick up on it but it’s true.

[near ocean]

There are things people could learn that are more relevant to software dev in the industry than haskell
If its to show they can learn any skill why not learn something completely unrelated?

Speaking of kindness, did we forget about Tay? Microsoft's twitter chatbot? Wasnt very kind was it

[vapid jay]

The early humans were hairy and couldn't speak much too. If we are into archaeology of performance.. let us take early samples of both. But to compare a human in 2023 on this server and an old, outdated, not-used-by-anybody-anymore prototypical chatbot seems like an uneven comparison done for the sake of rhetorical utility

[vapid jay]

In a scientific environment it is acceptable to ask for sources, my teacher tells me as I prepare my essays and in preparation to write my dissertation. Quote the source, add it to the Appendix. How can something in the industry, after completing college typically, be a regression Vs something we are taught to respect in college, before having any professional experience? It should be just fine to ask for a source or to ask "if it's personal opinion, don't state it as matter of fact".

Most professionals were, likely, successful college students before they were on their first job. The quality should go UP as an assumption, not down

[vapid jay]

After reading more into it.. yes, the reference to Tay is irrelevant now that we discuss about alignment so much. If you see any relevance to this topic, explain it to me.

[proven crest]

For someone so reliant on AI it’s interesting how important sources are any tidbit of information you come across 🤔

[near ocean]

How is kindness relevant at all? Its a bot, its trained on content mostly generated by humans, if it appears kind to you it's because it's emulating human behaviour that you just said is so rude

[lapis wind]

To go back to this, why is this even the conversation again... This is a repeat of yesterday, at almost the exact same time Only with different people now...

[vapid jay]

As this is Career Discussion I wonder if a career in programming is still as viable today as it was before very successful LLMs. Will LLMs enhance the same number of programmers or will they replace some programmers and enhance a few others? Will programming require knowing more and thus more dedication and commitment?

[near ocean]

This is getting old, if you dont think its worth it anymore dont go into the field, simple as

[lapis wind]

I think that whole LLM topic has been brought up at least 1000x now in recent conversations

[vapid jay]

Oh, and what was the conclusion? Summarise it for me?

[lapis wind]

Sorry, but I don't really have the time or motivation to do that right now since I'm working, I'd recommend just searching through previous discussions

[proven crest]

If you believe LLMs can replace developers then logically you have an infinitely large development team at your disposal, start your own company.

[vapid jay]

That does not sound logical

[proven crest]

Exactly

[trail seal]

problem (something idk) App

[vapid jay]

need to make this using tkinter and open()

[trail seal]

yeah idk

im a beginner

[near ocean]

This is the careers channel, if you need help go to a relevant channel like #python-discussion

[near ocean]

My guy, go to a help channel

[proven crest]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[grave hound]

<@&831776746206265384> can someone do something about this

[hasty copper]

any software engineer belongs to india and went to germany for studies or job can u guys please dm me...

[dense mesa]

Agreed, I'm pretty sure it's a chatbot at this point

[grave hound]

fr

[celest kite]

I'm pretty sure Modmail is preferable at this point

[grave hound]

im to lazy one of yall can though

[peak halo]

I'd appreciate it if you move on from the things people have said to you that you don't appreciate. If you feel like someone is treating you in a way that doesn't comply with our code of conduct, please send a message to @severe widget, stop talking to that person, and move on.

[celest kite]

Thank you modmale

[novel portal]

careers are a sensitive topic lol

[grave hound]

This has already been addressed, he has been acting like this since he joined (which happens to be 17 minutes after he made his account)

[ivory sluice]

we are aware of such things like account creation and join times. are you saying a mod already addressed them?

[grave hound]

Iirc yes

[ivory sluice]

okay, continue to allow us to handle it

[grave hound]

isnt there a rule that prevents people from being annoying?

okay

[vapid jay]

I guess it begins with pinpointing what is annoying and why. But it's for another channel, not here, not anymore.

[grave hound]

@ivory sluice u see what I mean

[ivory sluice]

let's keep this channel topic relevant to careers, more meta-moderation inquiries can go to @severe widget

[vapid jay]

hello

[vapid jay]

hello

[proven crest]

Hi!

[storm mist]

hi\

anyone give me a job so i can buy a 15dollar game

[celest kite]

!rule paid

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[storm mist]

oh my bad

[vapid jay]

hi

[vapid jay]

A job is a circuitous way to just get 15 USD or just get the game you want

Game
if not, 15 USD
if not... job

[celest kite]

Just setup a lemonade stand

[fleet reef]

hey, got any grapes?

[proven crest]

https://tenor.com/view/ducksong-duck-waddle-gotanygrapes-gif-5019876

[vapid jay]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemonade_Tycoon

[hasty copper]

I'm a fresher appling for a job from india to work in germany how can i find companies which are offering for a visa sponsorship and i can't speak german language

[vapid jay]

LinkedIn

[hasty copper]

tired man already done

[vapid jay]

or XING

[hasty copper]

just no response

[vapid jay]

Do you have skills that make a foreign hire compelling?

[hearty island]

i signed my return offer letter for the project manager internship and sent it to the president of the company

he responded like instantly. seemed very excited

[marsh wind]

afaik best way to get your foot into EU from India is via studies

[hasty copper]

can u tell me more about it?

[marsh wind]

I know multiple people who after having obtained a degree, and perhaps even worked few years in India then went to get anothre Masters in one of EU contries.

since it's far less evident to convince someone to bring you over from India to EU as opposed to hiring locally

[hasty copper]

my family doesnt have a good credit score to get a loan for myself

[marsh wind]

not sure I follow

[hasty copper]

hmm

[hardy shore]

Can I get a tech job at 15?

[near ocean]

probably not

[hardy shore]

Why

[near ocean]

because you're 15

[hardy shore]

Legal age to work in my country/state is 15. So what is it that prevents me from getting a job in tech is my question

[fringe sphinx]

(this question was cross-posted in pygen... might as well not engage on both sides)

[true harness]

other candidates. though, there's nothing stopping you from being nepotisimed into a role

[hardy shore]

Yeah there is. I don’t know a single person who could get me a job

[true harness]

well, that would be something that hinders your job search. networking is important

[proven crest]

If the legal age is 15, then by definition its possible. That doesn’t mean it’s likely. As for what prevents you, do you think you have the skills to compete with a computer science graduate? Do you think you’ll be able to balance your education with a full time job (or a part time, in which case do you see many part time jobs?), do you think you have the maturity and self discipline required for the role? Do you think you can display that to a potential employer?

[hearty island]

Q: Why do you want to work here?
A: I want this job because my own values and work ethic are aligned with [COMPANY], specifically their prioritization of collaboration, client service mindset, ethical standards, and constant strive for excellence. I’ve researched [COMPANY] heavily and the standards [COMPANY] has set has thoroughly impressed me. Additionally, I want this job because I am very passionate about [ROLE], and my academic qualifications are geared towards this type of work. Because I am passionate about this type of work, I will get work done, be happy about it, and I will be a high achiever. I’ve heard good things about [COMPANY] and the team I will be a part of. Because we spend so much time at work, I want to put that time to good use in a team where everyone has the same objective, where everyone is positive, and where great things are constantly achieved. possible response I made up, what do we think?

ofc i have to replace with the actual values the company has from their mission statement

i've fluffed my fair share of interviews and i wanna end that starting now

[white relic]

I think if you prepare your answer to the question "why do you want to work here?" before you even know what "here" is, you might be missing the point of the question a bit

I've gotten answers like that in an interview before and they just came off as kind of desperate

Not that I've never recommended hiring a desperate person before but when the desperation is all you can see, it interferes with getting a good read on how they would work in your team and corporate culture

[proven crest]

I think the other thing is I’d assume one of the points of that question is to see if you’re someone who genuinely wants to join the company and is excited by what the company does. If you come across as desperate it might not show that you are excited about joining their company and rather show that you’re desperate for a job

[fringe sphinx]

I don't even ask those types of questions because it's so rare to get a meaningful answer.

[white relic]

Yeah. Sometimes it doesn't matter what you ask though. I've seen candidates so afraid of making a bad impression that they avoided making any kind of impression at all

being agreeable isn't usually enough to hire someone

[fringe sphinx]

"What's your greatest weakness?" "I care too much"

[white relic]

another classic 😄

[true harness]

i'm a perfectionist

[coral vine]

I’m lazy

[hearty island]

but like i should have a general framing to it right

[proven crest]

I mean I usually look at what they’re doing that genuinely excite me in terms of technologies, products, clients etc and talk about that. Remember it’s a two way conversation not a question for you to give a monologue answer to

[hearty island]

alright

[proven crest]

I would research that before hand, but not write a monologue to go off, but that’s just me. I’m quite a confident talker

[hearty island]

my confidence evaporates in interviews

[white relic]

There's value in being prepared. You should research the company's values and mission statement and you should have some idea of why you want to work there but scripting it generically is, like I said earlier, kind of missing the point

[hearty island]

i'm just trying to get comfortable with the questions so i don't struggle with them on the interview

[proven crest]

But on the other hand if you are very prone to nerves in the interview won’t you struggle to remember your script? Could that not put you (and the interviewer) off because instead of being fluid you’re trying to remember a script?

[hearty island]

the idea is that i'll practice answering the question enough times so that i'm flexible enough to adapt my answer on the fly

[proven crest]

It might work for you, who knows everyone is different and you live and learn. It won’t be your last interview regardless of how it goes, so if you think it’ll help, go for it

[hearty island]

thanks pyrex 🙂

[stark iron]

hey guys I got tomorrow an interview as a senior python developer but don`t know what the questions that gonna be if someone here can prepare me for that would be nice

[dense mesa]

Have you done any interviews yourself as a senior developer? That could be a good starting point

[fringe sphinx]

my usual interview advice is: prepare for questions you can't answer. Practice not knowing the answer.

[marsh wind]

make sure though you really are flexible. I know some interviewers can throw a complete wrench as a question just to disrupt you

ie asking a question that feels very much out of place and that might have nothing to do with question before and etc...

[hearty island]

yeah

[marsh wind]

imo, veeeery general framing. For me the more natural, honest and transperent you are the better

and a framing automatically makes less natural.

then again, as Pyrex said, everyone is different, so if you get really stressed, etc, preapre more... I just can't work like that, ie some people would write and rehearse things like presentations and speeches down to a word, I could never do that

[fringe sphinx]

I only try to practice my opening and closing lines (for presentations/etc). The rest just flows, as long as I know how to bookend it.

[red gorge]

hi, greetings,
I'm a senior software engineer with over 10 years of experience in web development.
I have a strong understanding of various programming languages and frameworks,
including react, angular, vue, next, nuxt,
express, nest, django, laravel, .net framework,
and also, I'm very familiar with mysql, postgresql and mongodb.
I'm comfortable with cloud platforms such as gcp, ms azure and aws.
finally, I'd like to say that I'm really good at team collaboration.
I'm experienced in jira or trello board and used agile methologies such as scrum or kanban,
nowadays, I'm heavily taking in part in e-commerce projects,
I'm proficient in shopify, wordpress, magento.
I can show u my previous work examples whenever u want,
please let me know,
I can start working rn and can do any kind of projects perfeclty.
thx.

[marsh wind]

HI Eric. This is not the job board or a place to recruit/search for work

[red gorge]

ok, gotcha, btw, do u have any idea?

[proven crest]

LinkedIn and Indeed are good starting points, what country are you based in?

[red gorge]

FL, USA

I've already have a linkedin account.

[proven crest]

I've heard good stuff from Zip Recruiter, I think CV Library is in the US too

[proven crest]

You might not be aware, but LinkedIn has a jobs section where you can search for work

You should make sure your LinkedIn profile is up to date, filled with your skills and presentable. You can also set 'Looking for work' to notify potential recruiters that you are available

[marsh wind]

if your LI profile is well made there is a good chance that recruiters might even start harassing you if you have 10 years XP 🙂

[wanton birch]

Apart from LinkedIn and Indeed, what other job sites do you guys use? Bonus points for ones used in Canada!

[true harness]

i checked earlier today and didn't see many internship postings yet

[fringe sphinx]

I've heard hired.com is great if you like to be harassed.

[true harness]

presumably with 11yoe, you would know where to look for work 🤔

[marsh wind]

Not in here...

I got 0 hits even after I lowered min salary

[near ocean]

<@&831776746206265384> is this not the billionth time this guy posted an ad here

[analog sun]

!cban 1097907484242485339 continually disregarding server rules despite being reminded about them

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @queen thunder permanently.

[deft herald]

Thanks @thin birch . I especially like your qute on your profile too

[quartz aspen]

You'd be surprised. I have a new person at work who was in previous company for over 20 years...

And me... After 4.5y I'll be going back into job market.
I mean, I'm getting a contract of a more freelancer nature with current company, but idk how many tasks I'll get and how many I'll accept... Or whether I'll want to accept... i certainly want to explore some stuff.

[winter flume]

I'm not sure what it is like in the python world but in the js world atm it is very tough finding a contract.

[true harness]

c1 opened did you do it?
@modern ore i don't even know what that is

[thin birch]

Thank you😂

[hearty island]

the bank holding company?

[quartz aspen]

If things come to it, I can do some Java with my partner. But my partner said it might be unhealthy "do this issue or clean the room" deal XD

[true harness]

dawg you applied to this?

an exciting and innovative tech stack composed of: Java, React, Angular, Vue JS, C#, REST APIs, NoSQL database, Kubernetes, Terraform, Jenkins, Docker, AWS cloud, Scala, Clojure, Java, Haskell, C++, golang, Scheme, Common Lisp, and more!
💀