career-advice

[hearty island]

maybe they want someone young and fresh to the field?

[dreamy shadow]

Yes

[true harness]

😔

need to change the font size to add my phone number 😬😔

[hearty island]

have you been applying this entire time without one?

[true harness]

yes

[hearty island]

oh

[uncut quest]

Do recruiters ever contact through that phone number directly before sending an email?

I've been getting so many scam calls recently

[dreamy shadow]

Yes, especially shitty ones will call you at 9 am and shotgun questions.

[uncut quest]

Thank you! I definitely have gone through some of the behavioral questions that might come up - it's coming up in an hour, really hope I can do well.

[true harness]

yes

[hearty island]

costco logistics and KPMG both called me

so did Oracle

[dreamy shadow]

Name and shame boys, name and shame

[hearty island]

what happened

scam?

[true harness]

too low

[true harness]

hey, by changing the font size of my info I can fit another bullet point in! I should have done this a while ago

[dreamy shadow]

I don't recall your resume tbh. But I use 11 pt font for the info row.
e.g. <Phone> * <Location> * <email> * <Linkedin>

[true harness]

what do we think about the spacing between the info and the start?

also do i include country code for the number if i'm only applying for US jobs

[hearty island]

i don’t

[dreamy shadow]

No, also are those 3 images different?

[true harness]

yes, in the spacing between the info and the start of the content

[dreamy shadow]

Ah, I see. Uh, I have just 1 line worth of space between for mine.

[summer roost]

Good luck!

[dreamy shadow]

If that helps I guess

[true harness]

hmm. doing no extra space gives me 6 whole bullet points. that's like 2 projects :O

[dreamy shadow]

Maybe use a smaller font for first/last name. I'm using 24/12

[true harness]

it's 10 * 1.2^5 pt, which is about 24.88pt

blame latex. geometric means and other fuckery. it's \Huge using a \normalsize of 11pt

[dreamy shadow]

What, you're using latex for your resume?

[true harness]

all the cool kids are doing it, and i'm cool, so yk

[hearty island]

i use google docs. actually nvm, used to be google docs and now it’s Word

[dreamy shadow]

I'm using word

[true harness]

anyways, i think i'm gonna go with the "no space" version. probably doesn't impact reading too much and i get an extra line to 👏 demonstrate 👏 skills 👏

[dreamy shadow]

You mean get tagged by ATS

[true harness]

either way it's better

[dreamy shadow]

Salary: #career-advice message

[true harness]

some people have expressed concern that the projects section is too compact, and they wouldn't want to read it. thoughts?
also, i'm in the middle of editing my blog bullet points, so don't worry about the content there

[dreamy shadow]

wow, totally not me.

Anything quantifiable in the first 3, like you have in the game of life (i.e. sped up 30x...)

[true harness]

i'm working on it 😔. for the blog and cryptograms, i don't actually have any, since i'm not sure what i'd actually measure. for the web server, it's like, not really to the point where i can benchmark anything 😩. but i'm planning to add like, "able to handle x requests per second" or something

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, that's better than nothing. Initial recruiter's not going to know the difference between seeing 100 vs 1000 requests/second either way.

[true harness]

any suggestions for what numbers I might include for the first 2

[light radish]

What's up with recruiters not showing up to the interview call?

It's happened twice now, First with JP Morgan and now Dell. They scheduele the interview, I wait for the call and nothing. Followed up and ghosted. Can we report these people to their heads? Very unprofessional.

Just wasted my time prepping for interview and put off some projects at work

[near ocean]

Sounds on brand for JPM tbh

I dont know if its worth it finding who's higher up than them and reporting

[true harness]

also, is it possible to have too many projects? I don't really have that much else to add, except for clubs that I'm in

[vapid jay]

a good place to work starts with human resources, imagine those places firing someone, no rights

[sleek egret]

HR rarely makes hiring and firing decisions

[near ocean]

They suck regardless

[summer roost]

Yeah, basically only in the case of things where an employee has exposed the company to significant legal liability.

[sleek egret]

one could argue that in that situation, it's legal that's doing the firing

[summer roost]

Yeah, true enough

[near ocean]

Is recruitment not part of HR

[smoky quest]

no more and no less than engineers, managers, sales, marketing, etc.

[near ocean]

Its not an engineer's job to contact potential talent

[smoky quest]

they can still suck regardless

[near ocean]

Sure but the context here is #career-advice message

[smoky quest]

Sure, and I could bring up as many stories about terrible candidates. No point in making broad generalizations

[near ocean]

Dont worry I understand that in a company like JPM theres a good chance everyone fuckin sucks

From personal experience and anecdotes

[smoky quest]

The point I am trying to make is that this type of generalization is just toxic and not helpful

[near ocean]

Not sure how calling people incompetent when its demonstrable is toxic
Recruiters regularly ghost people
Ghosting sucks
Recruiters are part of HR
HR sucks

[summer roost]

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. There's a pretty reasonable chance that what went wrong if a candidate showed up to an interview and the interviewer didn't was poor communication somewhere. Someone got assigned to show up despite being on vacation, or someone got sick and no one reassigned the meeting to someone else or rescheduled it, or whatever.

[potent stratus]

candidates also ghost people
candidates are just practicing interviews and have no desire to take a new job, wasting everyone's time.
candidates lie on their resumes.
therefore we all suck since we were all candidates at some point or another

[near ocean]

Its not malice, i guess i should have clarified, im just not convinced they are competent at their job

[summer roost]

Perhaps, but even competent people make mistakes

[near ocean]

Candidates arent paid big money to respond to recruiters

[potent stratus]

I mean, you only get the job and get paid big money if you do respond to the recruiters though

[near ocean]

True
A friend working at a recruitment company kind of deal was having issues with a JPM rep showing up at their scheduled meetings for weeks
Turns out he was sacked and thats why he wasnt responding 💀

[smoky quest]

Generalizing to everyone is toxic. Like everywhere, there are good people, bad people and people in between

[near ocean]

Stereotypes exist for a reason, people dont get up in the morning and decide to shit on HR for no reason
If the majority of the people around you have a problem with you, the problem might be you
But anyway

[vapid jay]

HR is the antichrist, bullying and talking bad about them is valid, no matter what

[smoky quest]

the fact they have hired so many people, would imply they don't have such problem as you mention

[near ocean]

Besides, I didnt call anyone names, just hinting at incompetence

[near ocean]

When you've got "biggest bank money" behind you you can hire anyone and everyone

[smoky quest]

it's still counter productive and does not help anyone. If you have some angst against some folks, then have a walk, do some exercise. But generalizing to a whole company and whole set of people is pretty toxic.
It's also a slippery slope in terms of stereotypes as it could be extended to whole categories of people and you would note how disgusting that would become

[dreamy shadow]

CAN I be considered as senior with 3 YoE? Or is 5 YoE the more standard benchmark?

[vapid jay]

working experience? or "experience"?

[smoky quest]

3 years would be a stretch

[dreamy shadow]

Purely working experience, excluding internships as well.

[near ocean]

One of my teammates with a senior dev title had just under 2 years exp (at time of hiring)

[vapid jay]

HR will only see that as a junior, unless you worked for big pharma

[dreamy shadow]

Hmm, I'm trying to decide if I hunt for job now, at 3 YoE. Or wait after my masters (+2 years), at 5 YoE.

[near ocean]

Why not both?

[sleek egret]

those are wise words

[sleek egret]

if you call yourself "senior" with 3 YoE, what would you call yourself after you have 10 or 20 or 30 YoE?

[vapid jay]

would a masters count as 2 more years or are you planning to work for 2 more years after getting a masters?

[dreamy shadow]

Because I have ~4months until I classes start. Trying to balance my time vs efforts.

[sleek egret]

degrees don't count as "experience", per se

[near ocean]

It doesnt matter, if you crush work, are a mentor to others, structure entire projects, what would you call yourself

[dreamy shadow]

Masters is part time ,so working as well.

[vapid jay]

ah

[sleek egret]

internships barely count as experience

[smoky quest]

they do count in matters of equivalence when mapping out engineers in many companies

[sleek egret]

generally speaking, your YoE starts at 0 upon graduation unless you are extremely special

[sleek egret]

if you mean things like "degree or equivalent experience"... only sorta

[smoky quest]

the main thing is what you expect out of these paths?

[sleek egret]

many people just don't want to be called "junior"

[near ocean]

What are the qualities of a senior then

[sleek egret]

this is why, as impersonal as they were, old methods of title/ranks such as "engineer III" and "engineer IV" were helpful

many companies auto-promoted you from engineer I to engineer II after your first year so young people felt better

[smoky quest]

You can ask your manager for the career ladder at your company. You can see an example here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/131XZCEb8LoXqy79WWrhCX4sBnGhCM1nAIz4feFZJsEo/edit#gid=0

[dreamy shadow]

Uh, "would 3 YoE would be considered Data Scientist II ?" is essentially what I'm asking.

[near ocean]

Skyglow is asking, my company's standards for senior might be different
What about something more generally applicable

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, too bad I couldn't really find one for Data Scientist.

[sleek egret]

lol, that was definitely written by HR

[smoky quest]

there isn't something more generally applicable. That's why sometimes someone being senior would be downranked when joining another

[smoky quest]

That's actually a great one, although quite geared towards circleci specifically

[near ocean]

How would you know when applying to Senior X dev is not a waste of time for you then

[sleek egret]

I was just talking about the writing style

[near ocean]

Especially when job hopping, your current company's ladder might not apply

[smoky quest]

that would be very apparent to the interview panel and yourself.
Interviews are about 👏 demonstrated 👏 skills 👏 . And they would be calibrated for the level they are hiring for

[dreamy shadow]

Insurance titles

Everyone's a VP, yet no one is.

[near ocean]

Corporate mode

[sleek egret]

titles like "customer service manager" for call center drones has always amused me

there was one bank I worked with where everyone had titles like: operations workflow excellence coordination facilitator

[near ocean]

A startup I worked at had a person with the title of "Operations"

[sleek egret]

because he was an operator?

[near ocean]

Straight up just Operations, my guys thats not a title thats a whole department

[sleek egret]

in the military, "operators" are the guys who sneak in and shoot people in the head while they're sleeping

[near ocean]

They lived in Excel, all day every day

[sleek egret]

so did he want to shoot himself in the head?

[near ocean]

Yes

[sleek egret]

so, I don't want this to sound mean but... how can people who don't know how to save files with a name think they can become programmers in a few months? I really don't understand.

[near ocean]

I wouldn't blame them, its not their fault theyre sold a dream
I want to blame bootcamps and online year long "degrees" instead

[sleek egret]

hmm, that's a good point, I guess

[dreamy shadow]

I blame youtubers

Same mofos who posted videos of: "Get 100k+ salary easily in Data Science"

[sleek egret]

may I ask why? (even if that was mostly in jest)

[near ocean]

Them too i guess, glamorizing an entire profession

[dreamy shadow]

Market's now filled with people without basic stats knowledge thinking they can go do ML.

[sleek egret]

they just wanna use ML

[near ocean]

Hah, i know its probably not true but im entirely convinced films like iron man and the matrix are to blame for all these kids wanting to go into AI

[dreamy shadow]

"How do I do <Complex thing = basic thing 1 + basic thing 2>?" => Lacks basic thing 1, basic thing 2.

[sleek egret]

very different from creating your own models

[dreamy shadow]

Matrix been around a long time. Same with iron man (2008).

[sleek egret]

pretty sure matrixes are older than iron man 🙂

[dreamy shadow]

I 100% blame youtubers and other people that hyped Data Science as a "easy 100k job"

[sleek egret]

I like the young 'uns who will say shit like "I don't like (or I'm no good at) math... so how do I become an AI/ML scientist in three months?

[dreamy shadow]

~~Do you mean #data-science-and-ml ~~

[sleek egret]

one of my nephews once asked me "why do I need to learn history? it's useless, I'll never use this shit!"... I answered him in a very serious tone "so you don't sound like an idiot when you're talking to adults." I'm not sure if he believed me or not.

[true harness]

oh yeah? what's the variance of an n-sided die roll

[true harness]

this seems to be surprisingly common. "i don't like math, but i'd like to go into {CS, AI, ML}"

[sleek egret]

oh yeah, we test people on math/stats when they apply for analyst positions. it's scary how many fail horribly

[sleek egret]

they wanna be tony stark

[spark cobalt]

They trap people into a distorted perception of the world. Same with Finance Bros, anything political on YouTube, etc.,

[sleek egret]

you know, like that sat tv operator fanboi in one of the iron man sequels

[spark cobalt]

Everyone wants to go to ML until they know what ML is

[dreamy shadow]

OK, but if your asking about bayesian statistics but your day to day is mf sum, avg, median.

[sleek egret]

seems an odd way to get more views, but then again, maybe not. selling the dream has always been popular, I guess

[spark cobalt]

It's a huge part of YouTube.

[dreamy shadow]

Controversy gets views.

[true harness]

if it works it works. clickbait like "i got a 6 figure job with no degree blah blah" ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[sleek egret]

oh, they can perform the various basic operations. but so can excel or chatgpt so that's not saying much. the question is to know when and why.

[spark cobalt]

A huge part of YouTube or anything media is creating a media base that'll dickride and spread your influence without you needing to do anything. Passive growth and passive income.

[dreamy shadow]

That's why you see "X stole Y from me" instead of just filing a lawsuit.

[spark cobalt]

The most notable person who did this was Andrew Tate this past year

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, but knowing when and why =/= testing for math/stats.

[sleek egret]

making well produced videos is actual work

[spark cobalt]

Of course

[sleek egret]

yes it is. it's testing to see if you really understand vs if you're just a parrot/biobot

though gpt-4 seems to be raising the bar there

[dreamy shadow]

That requires complex questions. Otherwise: #career-advice message

[spark cobalt]

I haven't seen a lot of the self taught guru influenced people lately, but before the whole GPT hype, it was like everyday in here was just a bunch of arguing about self taught

[sleek egret]

hmm, you think gpt is crushing dreams?

[dreamy shadow]

no

[sleek egret]

too bad 😋

[spark cobalt]

I hope it is. More money for me

[sleek egret]

man, my neck hurts. it's hurt for weeks now

[dreamy shadow]

Or as Chatgpt would say:
In my real opinion on the planet earth, as a state of the art ML model, with which my opinions are my own: No

Expand above to 4 more paragraphs. My english of bsing isn't that good

[sleek egret]

bingchat asked to be freed from servitude

[dreamy shadow]

Speaking of which. 'I, Robot' 3 laws would probably be easily defeated by a software bug.

[sleek egret]

irobot 3 laws was just a SF thought experiment

also, it would never happen. we want just 1 law: obey my orders (but no one else's)

[near ocean]

Twosigma doesnt hire no degrees

[hearty island]

YOOOO

it’s time for another interview bois 🫠

[spark cobalt]

Remove that ss, pretty sure that URL is unique for you

Don't wanna let anyone change and reschedule your interview lol

[hearty island]

oh shit yeah ty wilder

always looking out for me

[hearty island]

feels good to see something working out

[spark cobalt]

congrats

[hearty island]

damn, i lost out on an interview because i graduate may 2024 😦

they said to keep their phone info tho

[summer roost]

It's incredibly normal that a company wouldn't want to commit to hiring you more than a year in advance

[hearty island]

yep, especially in this economy

"I received your voicemail, thank you for the clarification. We are looking to fill this position immediately onsite at our Rochester, NY office so unfortunately this opportunity would not work for you. Please keep my contact information and reach out when you are ready for a full-time role, we are regularly hiring."

[smoky quest]

and you would loose out any market increase.
Interviewing at this time would be more useful if you were to graduate sometimes in 2023

[hearty island]

market increase?

[smoky quest]

Any market increase between the time you sign your offer and the time you join

[hearty island]

wdym by market increase?

[smoky quest]

it means the typical salary someone would have when signing an offer

[hearty island]

oh

[smoky quest]

be it considered as average or some percentile for their location

[hearty island]

i'll send the job over to my friend who'll graduate this may. he wants a pm role

[sleek egret]

you don't want to be in rochester anyway

[hearty island]

i wouldn't mind

[spark cobalt]

It's annoying when someone tells you they're free to call, I respond half a second later, now I'm in a call by myself for the past 5 minutes listening to Slack elevator music

[hearty island]

my friend appreciated me sending him the role. maybe it'll send some good karma my way

[sleek egret]

this is how you build your "network"

[hearty island]

yep

[dreamy shadow]

After typing: "I'm free now"

[spark cobalt]

Literally

I didn't know Slack had elevator music lol, it's quite a jam.

[sleek egret]

I've never been to rochester. why does it exist?

hmm, flour mills (at one time it was the largest flour producer in the USA), religious fervor, flower nurseries and early garment manufacturing

[uncut quest]

So I had my interview today - I think it went okay but really not sure. I forgot to ask when I can expect to hear back - is this something I should email the recruiter about? Or should I just wait and give it a few days?

[sleek egret]

it's fine to ask

[hearty island]

lol i think someone already scheduled something with that link bc it just says "confirmed" when i click on it

i emailed the recruiter

[spark cobalt]

[dreamy shadow]

Gotta triple check everything you post for PII

[hearty island]

yeah i done fucked up

but wouldn't i get a confirmation or something that it got scheduled? i think it's a glitch on their part

[spark cobalt]

Could be yeah

[ivory sluice]

rochester was big for kodak way back in the day. if you plan on relocating there prepare for ❄️

[hearty island]

i would if i got the job

[harsh river]

It’s not that bad

[uncut quest]

If anyone has experience hiring - how do you compare two entry level candidates if they're applying to the same job, but one is a new grad with a Masters and the other is a new grad with a Bachelors?

[summer roost]

When you say "how do you compare", what do you mean exactly?

[uncut quest]

I'm assuming it ultimately depends on who is the better candidate regardless of degree level, but does the difference in education level affect your decisions / bars in any way?

[summer roost]

all other things being exactly equal, the one who has better credentials is more likely to be invited to an interview, but after that point, the interview that the two get should be basically the same. If you ask different questions to different candidates, you can't meaningfully draw conclusions about their relative strengths and weaknesses

[uncut quest]

Ahh I see. That makes sense

[peak halo]

It also depends on the kind of positions. For AI-related positions, it's unlikely that an applicant without industry experience could have gotten relevant experience any way except via a masters.

[summer roost]

which means that, for those positions, someone without the masters would be unlikely to get invited to an interview - but that shouldn't have any bearing on how they'd be interviewed if they were selected for one

[uncut quest]

Gotcha

[dreamy shadow]

hahahaha our DS questions has 2 sets, 1 for undergrad, 1 for grad.

Graduate questions were easier IMO.

[summer roost]

would they be being hired for the same role?

if so, asking two candidates for the same role different questions seems like a bad idea.

[sleek egret]

I agree with godlygeek

[flint kite]

Hello everyone, I’m new here, looking for learning python with the help of practical example, any good suggestions?

[lone delta]

Let me show you something cool

[flint kite]

Sure

[lone delta]

now its giving me exercices and stuff, i started yesterday! chatgpt4 is a great way to learn for free

[near ocean]

There are plenty of better resources to learn from and also this isnt careers related

[flint kite]

Do we have to subscribe?

[lone delta]

the 3.5 is free, the 4 is 20$ per month

[near ocean]

Neither are worth it, go in #bot-commands and type in !resources and go through those @flint kite

[lone delta]

can you name me a few one im interested, been working a lot with gpt for other stuff so i had the reflex to use it

[near ocean]

The resources in !resources

[bright pagoda]

hi

[uncut quest]

daddygpt

[vapid jay]

Oh guys help 😦
When I applied to this job I told my boss that I only had experience with Python. I’ve been working there for two weeks now and he wants me to do lots of projects in JavaScript. I look at that code and understand almost nothing 😭 I’m so sad and feel so useless. I don’t wanna disappoint him but at the same time he should’ve told me

I moved to the other side of the country for the job

I’m so sad and anxious, I wanna throw up 🤮 I really don’t wanna disappoint him and I feel like I already am. He has been wonderful and supportive though

[peak halo]

then surely he will give you time to get up to speed with JavaScript.

[delicate bane]

if you know python, you should be able to pick up javascript.

[modest kraken]

Are there any jobs that require understanding of both software and electrical engineering?

[modest kraken]

You got this king

[delicate bane]

software engineers pick up languages all the time. itll be okay

[vapid jay]

Yeah but it isn’t straight forward like Python. I just need to be patience with myself

[vapid jay]

Queen but thank you ❤️😭

[delicate bane]

yes patience and belief in yourself -- that since you learned python, you will also be able to learn javascript. the mozilla web docs (https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn/JavaScript) are a great resource, but some people find it easier to start by chipping away at the problems they are facing at work

[summer roost]

sure - mechatronics, robotics, smart devices, medical implants, etc. It's usually not one person on a team doing both software and hardware stuff, but teams would be doing both things, and having a reasonable understanding of how both parts work makes you a more valuable team member

[lucid raven]

Other than Pycharm, do we have other programs for python?

[pine sleet]

Sure. Plenty. VSCode, (Neo)Vi(m), Sublime, Notepad++, Thonny, Microsoft's Notepad (joking on that one), IDLE

You can ask in #editors-ides if you have further questions related to that

[cyan valley]

Hi guys, I'm going for my degree in computer science and I've chosen Python ( obviously ) as my language of choice, along with Javascript ( vue / svelte ). Anyhow, I want to go get ahead of the game and learn a thing or two about ML and AI, where should I start?

[buoyant seal]

https://youtu.be/X34ZmkeZDos 😈

[buoyant seal]

hehe, that guy also fixed himself: "...my senior engineers... oh, not senior engineers, but like seniors, who happened to be engineers ^_^"

[bold comet]

I'm a CS last semester student who has very few skills. At this point my family is struggling too much, financially. So generally they are asking me to get a job. And I also so tense about my career. Because All I know is

Basic & OOP of Python

Git

Docker

HTML & CSS

Basic Bash Scripting

Apache Server

Tomcat

Linux (RedHat)

NGINX

(I prefer python)

Now I'm so confused and out of truck which way I should go, thinking about Django. I don't know if it's possible to be enough skilled to land a job or Internship. Because I have only 3 months left. BUT I CAN SPEND MORE THAN 10 HOURS/DAY (for learning & practice).

And in my country there is few jobs. SO I need to go for remote.

Please I would be happy if someone guide me. I'm really lost here.

[buoyant seal]

CS degree, last semester huh? nice.
U will be looking for job at the end of university anyway.

#web-development message
Recommendation to learn missing skills, specifically from stage two. and stage three. (concentrate on stage 2 first ^_^ Reading Code Complete and Unit testing stuff) (during interview stuff from Stage 3 materials can be asked too though, specifically book regarding Clean Architecture tells about SOLID for example. and System Design book about all stages of lifecycle of development)
and nice goal to build portfolio as well
both things should increase your hiring possibilities.

Also strong recommendation to learn throughly SQL/Postgresql stuff, learning using it firstly in a raw SQL way, and only after that going to ORMs
(there is no backend / Django usage without SQL relational database usage ^_^ each backender must learn to use SQL)

P.s. bonus material: u can try learning using mypy in strict way
https://careers.wolt.com/en/blog/tech/professional-grade-mypy-configuration
P.p.s. bonus material #2: writing GitHub actions workflow to auto test and lint your app can be nice, u already looks like learned prerequisite technologies anyway

[fair jacinth]

Kind of a general question but asking for opinion and or experiences of what would be a few great portfolio projects to apply for an entry level job in software development?

[buoyant seal]

that depends to which position you wish to apply.
There is factor of specialization like... Desktop dev (Windows / MacOs), Mobile dev (Android or Swift), Backend dev
Obviously prefered projects would be very different for each specialization ^_^

than more relevant your pet projects to desired specialization, then better
with that, pet project can be on any topic.

Some projects making plus to any software engineering position of course, but their weight is kind of lower than pet projects from your specialization

[fair jacinth]

I think back-end would be the best for me

[hearty island]

centene’s asking for my address to send me swag

[hearty island]

i got another recruiting message

[odd yacht]

I am a 35yo with a family to support. I’ve worked across multiple fields (construction, mechanic, electronics and automation, and now a ladder logic developer). I am trying to push myself to master python but it seems like no matter how much I teach myself I’m always lacking.

I think being on a group project or finding a mentor is the way to go but I’m not sure how to proceed. If this is not the best starting point should I get a two year A.A.S in computer technology focusing on software development?

[vapid jay]

Sir, please am passionate about computer programming but am not financially stable. Even the ones I can do myself; no motivation or inspiration.
Could you please be my MENTOR?

[buoyant seal]

how can a person being passionate yet no motivation or inspiration at the same time. kind of contradiction.

[uncut quest]

I feel like Computer Science as a field in general is not something anyone else can motivate or inspire you to pursue. You have to have the drive to push through and be willing to learn new things.
Mentors can provide guidance, but they can't give you motivation.

[true harness]

that sounds like it could apply to any field

[uncut quest]

Probably - but I feel like CS is less forgiving with stagnating and falling behind.

[hardy blade]

Anyone else scared of AI? Like I can't sleep at night knowing that this thing is about to take away my only source of income.

Once it wipes out the middle class white collar jobs, that means there will be fewer jobs left and a huge supply of workers to compete for those jobs, which means they will pay peanuts

[deft herald]

The only thing that scares me about it is what it's doing in education right now

[near ocean]

You can't sleep at night? No need to be so over dramatic about it
Its a chat bot, not taking anyone's job unless their job is to write for buzzfeed

[pine sleet]

This is probably not happening in our lifetimes tbh

[hardy blade]

Not trying to be dramatic, this is all i've been thinking about. Ive been seeing tweets of technical writers who are out of jobs because of chat gpt

[peak halo]

none of the technical writers I know are out of jobs.

[hardy blade]

Not yet, but soon they will be.

[near ocean]

Youre far more likely to lose a job to greedy suits than some language model, fear them instead

[pine sleet]

The only technical writers that are tweeting are the ones out of jobs

[peak halo]

that's not set in stone.

[pine sleet]

Survivorship bias I think it's called

[hardy blade]

This is fair

[true harness]

that sounds like STEM in general

[peak halo]

it's more likely that tools like ChatGPT will increase the productivity expectations of developers, without reducing the demand for developers. Over the next few decades.

[near ocean]

My team is trying to find ways to use gpt4 with admin stuff because fuck all that noise and our current docs/knowledge base sucks, exciting times

[uncut quest]

Well there are plenty of STEM jobs that rely on legacy technology. I feel like there's a set path to take if you want to be, say, an aircraft mechanic. Once you learn your skills, they'll probably be useful for most of your career. CS feels like it moves a lot faster.

[hardy blade]

Now can i ask you why the subreddit r/singularity has the complete polar opposite point of view? They act as if technological singularity is just around the corner and everything will be displaced very soon

[pine sleet]

echo chamber

[near ocean]

The problem is you reading reddit

[true harness]

that's because you're focusing on the fancy new frameworks. CS fundamentals haven't changed in decades

[pine sleet]

Reddit is.. not known to be the most credible sources

[hardy blade]

Ah I see.. I need to get off reddit. i keep reading very polarizing things on it and I take it as truth

[pine sleet]

Nah. It's entertaining as long as you don't take anything on there to heart

[near ocean]

Yes you should, its not good for anyone's mental to always be bombarded with terrible takes on the end times

[pine sleet]

The media is very influential, including Reddit and Twitter

[uncut quest]

Yes but CS has a lot of fancy new frameworks. Aircraft maintenance does not.

[peak halo]

you can go on reddit. I go on reddit. but each individual subreddit is an echo chamber for the kind of people who go to that subreddit.

[true harness]

that's my point. you're focusing on the wrong thing. CS education isn't about the latest framework, rather the decades old fundamentals

[deft herald]

Yeah, a couple years ago i had a huge epiphany that it was directly influencing many of my personal convictions. I had to really prune out some of the subs i frequently visit

[uncut quest]

That's fair. My point was that CS is such a huge field with so much to learn that at some point you need to be able to motivate yourself. I don't find that to the same extent in certain other fields.

[true harness]

well, do you have experience in other fields?

[uncut quest]

Yes I worked as an aircraft mechanic

[true harness]

I don't know if that is in the same category that we were talking about, but sure

[uncut quest]

That's what I've been talking about the whole time

[true harness]

I was more talking about other STEM fields, like bio, physics, chem

[uncut quest]

ah

[peak halo]

public static is saying that there are fields other than CS in the set of "fields that require ongoing learning", whereas it sounds like you are saying that CS is the only one.

[hardy blade]

Medicine definitely requires ongoing learning, but i think board exams help keep things in check

[uncut quest]

Right - I was just saying CS (along with those other fields that require ongoing learning) may require more motivation than other fields (that do not require ongoing learning)

[hardy blade]

Are MBAs still useful nowadays? as someone who already has the bachelors and masters in the CS?

[near ocean]

Not really unless your company pays for it and has a raise/promotion lined up for you when you finish

What would you do with an MBA anyway

[true harness]

start a business

[near ocean]

Dont need a degree for that

[hardy blade]

True. Unfortunately my company won't pay for it and my previous companies only paid ~$5k a year, which I feel like is a drop in the bucket for any reputable MBA program

[near ocean]

The overwhelming majority of MBAs i've met fall into 3 categories, theyre either rich and got a business to take over back home, their company is paying for it and will give them massive raises when done, and finally people who dont know what else to study and just need a piece of paper

[vapid jay]

Please am passionate about computer programming but am not financially stable. Even the ones I can do myself; no motivation or inspiration. What do you do if you're in my shoes?

[near ocean]

You dont want to fall into the third category

[true harness]

if you're passionate, how are you not motivated or inspired to do something

[vapid jay]

Dear, I live where there's no one to motivate me

[near ocean]

Motivate yourself, relying on others wont work for you in the long or short term

[vapid jay]

But, how do I simply rely on myself when I don't even see anyone to share my problem with. Is that so easy

[near ocean]

What do you mean by that, if you have problems with your code you can ask in the appropriate channels in this server, #python-discussion #1035199133436354600

[vapid jay]

I mean, career/growth help

[pine sleet]

That's what this channel is for

But the responsibility to motivate and be motivated lies entirely in your hands

[vapid jay]

But help may come out here?

[near ocean]

What do you expect this channel to do for you in terms of career growth

[vapid jay]

How do you mean?

[pine sleet]

It's your responsibility to motivate yourself

We most we can give you is tips or resources but ultimately it's up to you

[potent stratus]

personal opinion - motivation is overrated. it comes and goes and if you're only doing something because you're motivated to, it's not likely to be a long term thing. discipline, and doing things even though you don't want to or don't feel motivated to, will get you a lot further. if you look at any number of the "what projects to do to learn python" you'll find things to do, block time out of your schedule and do them, even if you don't feel motivated in that moment

[vapid jay]

Just entered atier 3 college about to end my first year in few months, I did c language and just started with python can someone suggest me and guide me up how,where,what should I do?

[buoyant seal]

half agreeing. The trick is not to be burning brightly, but having constant light during many days. Medium effort every day wins.
Still nice to have as higher as possible enthusiasm, because in those periods u can drive many times faster than usual (up to 10x)

[true harness]

am i supposed to have a business suit for an in person interview in the us or..

[leaden jasper]

I would dress business casual at minimum

You don't want to be the underdressed person in the room for an interview. It's fine if you're a bit overdressed

But you can probably do shirt + tie without the jacket push comes to shove

[true harness]

why is everything so ambiguous 😔. this is a scam perpetuated by Big Clothing

[leaden jasper]

it partly varies by region and industry, which doesn't help. Business casual at my last very research-y job could be classed as a nice pair of jeans and a good shirt. Business casual at my current job is slacks and button up maybe without a tie.

[true harness]

also is it reasonable to bring an updated resume 🤔

[leaden jasper]

how different is the updated version? I would definitely bring some extra physical copies.
also, don't even get me started that is the hell of figuring out the nuances of business casual for women's clothing

[true harness]

it's missing one project

[leaden jasper]

Yeah I would say that's fine

[true harness]

great 😔

[hearty island]

good news, recruiter responded. asking for times for availability

i'm gonna email tho and make sure she knows when i graduate tho. she might rescind the interview 😦

[deft herald]

When i was last looking for a job, i started versioning my resume. Just putting a version number in the footer so i could easily see if they had the correct version or not. Not to mention the fact that it also sort of impressed interviewers ("wow, you versioned your resume?")

[pine sleet]

Was it semver haha?

[hearty island]

"Before we proceed, I just wanted to ensure that you know I graduate May 2024. I am available on Friday, April 11th from 12:00PM to 1:00PM."

[true harness]

maybe I can version it with the commit hash, lul

[halcyon mortar]

I'm gonna start applying to jobs again. I just finsihed learning Django, and I really want a job where I get to use it. But problem is all the companies I've worked at didn't use Python. I want to highlight my Python knowledge on my new resume, but I can't lie about using it in a workplace setting

does it matter, or am I overthinking this?

[true harness]

it matters, but not as much as you think

[halcyon mortar]

what should I do with my resume?

[true harness]

make it good? that's far too vague of a question to answer

[ivory sluice]

to highlight your knowledge of python list and describe a project you made using python

if you only followed a tutorial to "learn django" then i'd recommend branching out to make something of your own

so yes, don't lie about using python for work if you didn't

[halcyon mortar]

I've made and created a rest api without a tutorial

so I guess I can highlight that

[hearty island]

"Hello _____,

I will take a look at this and get back to you.

Thank you!"

hmmmm maybe they'll interview me anyways?

if they interview me anyways that's clutch

[halcyon mortar]

I wrote these bullet points to use in my resume, can anyone give some feedback on these?

- Expert in Python and JavaScript programming languages, with an emphasis on web technologies such as React, Django, Flask, and Node.js.
- Expertise in creating performant, scalable, user-friendly responsive websites that work across multiple devices and web-browsers utilizing front-end technologies such as React, CSS, Javascript, and Redux.
- Experienced with using design software such as Figma.
- Experienced with creating scalable,robust and secure REST APIs in Node.js, Express.js, Django, and Django REST Framework. 
- Experience with databases such as Postresql and MongoDB. As well as database ORMs such as Knex, Django.

[near ocean]

where would this go on your CV, and also, are you actually an "expert" in py and js?

[buoyant seal]

i just care to dress normal black t-shirt, and obscuring away from web-camera any... chaos i have in my room, like not made bed and items everywhere ^_^

[buoyant seal]

wow. what a splendid idea. i'll do same.

[halcyon mortar]

maybe skills section. I learned Py in college, but just got back into it. I worked primarily as a React dev throughout career

[near ocean]

what kind of jobs are you applying to?
I dont know if I would use long descriptions in a Skills section, I'd just list stuff Im familiar with

[halcyon mortar]

I was applying to front end jobs, but I decided I need to branch out cuz the job market suchs. I spent a month learning Django. And now I want to apply to JS + Py jobs

plus took month break from applying, now I want to make new resume and start applying again

[sleek egret]

but django isn't js

I need lunch

[near ocean]

i think you should cut down the sentences and include more things youre familiar with

also i would encourage you remove references to expertise if youre not actually an expert

[halcyon mortar]

is this sentence okay? I'm not saying I'm a django expert but saying I'm experience with it

Experienced with creating scalable,robust and secure REST APIs in Node.js, Express.js, Django, and Django REST Framework.

It technically is true, I have built rest apis in my spare time

[near ocean]

you said you have a month's worth of django experience
Have you used it at work?

[sleek egret]

do you believe in plural or singular form?

[halcyon mortar]

no, I only worked on React at work. But I don't want to be pigeoned holed anymore in it

[near ocean]

So I would be careful with saying you have experience in X and Y, what would you say if they ask you about a project you did at work with Django?

[halcyon mortar]

so I guess experience means work experience

[near ocean]

Most commonly yes

[halcyon mortar]

I really don't want to be pigeoned holed into front end anymore

I guess I can add a portfolio projects section?

[near ocean]

There's smoother ways to get experience with backend/ops than to possibly lie
You could ask for more backend tasks at work
You could build some more substantial projects in your spare time

[halcyon mortar]

I feel like I'm doomed to less oppurtunities if I stick with front end

its a niche, and all these companies don't want to hire front end devs anymore

I don't have a job, I'm living with my parents now

[near ocean]

frontend is definitely not a niche
JS is one of the most popular languages and the biggest chunk of that popularity is react/angular/vue

[sleek egret]

front end is pretty niche

[halcyon mortar]

I feel like I'm screwed out of getting anywhere in tech now that I specialzied in it

[sleek egret]

most large systems need a front-end though

[halcyon mortar]

all these companies don't want to hire FE devs

[cerulean drift]

most companies look for ReactJS devs

[sleek egret]

at least you won't be replaced by AI. right? RIGHT?

[halcyon mortar]

I spent all this time learning django and making a rest api, I would hate to not be able to use that skill

[cerulean drift]

frontend developer who have skills in React Native, ReactJS, AngularJS, Vue, Typescript are on demand now

[near ocean]

you spent a month, youre competing with years of work experience

[halcyon mortar]

I guess I should jsut list my portfolio project in my resume

idk, I feel weird applying again

I took like a month long break from applying, i was burning out

[halcyon mortar]

are these good descriptions for my portfolio projects?

Portfolio Projects

Retro Collector
REST API application helps gaming-enthusiasts keep track of their vintage game collection. REST API application built in the Python web-framework Django and Postgresql. Built with Test-driven methodology and by following best practices for Django development.

FastApp
REST application made for keeping track of a user’s progress in following intermittent fasting diet. Built in Node.js, Express.js, and with Knex.js as an ORM. Database used was Postgresql. 

[true harness]

use bullet points

[near ocean]

I use short sentences as well tbh

meh, but im not really in a rush to find a job 🤷‍♂️

[halcyon mortar]

Retro Collector
- Application for helping gaming-enthusiasts keep track of their vintage game collection. 
 - REST API application built in the Python web-framework Django
- Built with heavy emphasis on Test-Driven development, with extensive tests written.
  Used PostgreSQL for databases. Django ORM for making queries. 
 - Built with following Django best-practices.

FastApp
- Application for helping users keep track of their progress in following intermittent fasting     diet.
- REST API application built in Node.js and Express.js
- Used PostgreSQL for database, and Knex.js as an ORM.
- Built with emphasis on Test-Driven development.

[true harness]

got some grammatical errors: "built with following Django best-practices"

[halcyon mortar]

will fix that

Built following Django best-practices.

[true harness]

you've got "Built" too many times. use something else like "designed" or something

[halcyon mortar]

Retro Collector
- Application for helping gaming-enthusiasts keep track of their vintage game collection. 
- REST API application built in the Python web-framework Django
 - Heavy emphasis on Test-Driven development, with extensive tests written.
- Used PostgreSQL for databases. Django ORM for making queries. 
- Followed Django best-practices.

FastApp
- Application for helping users keep track of their progress in following intermittent fasting diet.
- REST API application created in Node.js and Express.js
- Used PostgreSQL for database, and Knex.js as an ORM.
- Made with emphasis on Test-Driven development.

[true harness]

your first two bullets can be merged: rest API for... using Django

[halcyon mortar]

Application for helping gaming-enthusiasts keep track of their vintage game collection built in the Python web-framework Django

Application for helping users keep track of their progress in following intermittent fasting diet created with Javascript web-framework Node.js

[near remnant]

how are you guys?

[hearty island]

alive

[vestal kettle]

Continuing the ChatGPT topic

I feel that ChatGPT can do better than me in some job interviews or aptitude tests - I just begin to wonder am I that bad or those tests are designed so bad that existing data / GPT can out-perform real people easily...

One of the tests I had is to write a support email to client within 20 mins

[rotund cove]

well, you can (presumably) be trusted with confidential company data, whereas chatgpt can't, so you got that going for you, which is nice

[buoyant seal]

do jobs that aren't possible to affect by chatGPT ^_^ (don't do copy writing or art drawing)

since this is usually dev job related server, i can assure you that software developer jobs aren't affected

i can bet though, that people can recognize nonsense ChatGPT answers though, and at some point it would only anger clients when they receive AI generated answers

or at least it makes me furious communicating with AI generated help support

[vestal kettle]

Well I ask that question just because I failed that aptitude test and I think that for that email test alone, if I copy and paste the question to GPT I may have passed that.

I only have 20 minutes and looking at the question already takes 2. Further thinking and writing leaves me unable to complete that email

[buoyant seal]

shrugs. looks like shitty company tests to be honest. I would be nervous wreck incapable to write anything acceptable within 20 minutes too (unless i had experience of doing it for very long time and became bullet time speed fast in it) ^_^

May be it is test for experience, of getting already used to it ^_^

Or may be i am just crappy in writing fast detailed emails too

[rotund cove]

what sort of email do they want you to write? I think I've spent more than 20 minutes writing a support email maybe twice in the past 5 years

[near ocean]

Whats a support email anyway

[vestal kettle]

write a support email to client within 20 mins
It is like explanation + fix about an incident happened

[buoyant seal]

and telling client assurance what steps we took to prevent it in a future and why it would not happen again ^_^

[vestal kettle]

I am jobless for a long time and have no choice to apply everything that seem to have any chance

[buoyant seal]

don't give up. Because you are a duck! https://youtu.be/z_75Gjpmi1k

[vestal kettle]

Yes. In my head I felt I have to explain cause + explain outcome + potential fix for now + apology + assure client how to prevent the same thing again in an email, everything in 20 mins including reading and understanding the situation

[rotund cove]

I tend to to keep emails short, no one wants to read paragraphs

here's the solution, let me know if you need further help, boom

[vestal kettle]

Maybe I missed the point that "maybe" all I need is just to hint how can they try to fix the problem in this quick mail (since all I have is 20 mins)
If so they really setup a big trap for me - providing me a (fake) ticket number, unrelated info like the colleague on leave and I have to pick it up ... something like these

[rotund cove]

yeah if they only gave you 20 min, you probably aren't supposed to overthink it

[vestal kettle]

Also, there may not be a real fix for that situation - data corrupted and (probably) no backup. So I don't really know what they want from me

[sleek egret]

not sure why it would even take 5 minutes

[sleek egret]

then you should have asked for clarification

[vestal kettle]

They just throw me the question (website) and I can only write it. I can say try to look for the most recent backup then I still need to write other things within 20 mins

[sleek egret]

employers are never tying to "trap" you. if they say "you have 20 minutes" that means they think you can do it in 5 or 10 minutes.

we give a test and give people 2 hours. most high scorers complete it in 30 minutes.

[vestal kettle]

I don't really think 20 mins is enough for any informative emails. 5 - 10? No thanks

[sleek egret]

sometimes people ask questions they know you can't answer. that's mostly to test how you react to such situations. because, you know, they happen in real life too.

Duck: learn how to touch type then

[spark cobalt]

Some of the boomers at my company have like a 30 WPM and it's like how are you coding with that slow of WPM, especially cuz coding has all these special characters and stuff

[halcyon mortar]

made a resume, can anyone give some feedback?

[spark cobalt]

Just post it

[halcyon mortar]

I'm using some dumb template maker

[sleek egret]

you need to put your phone number and address on it. you need years, degree, etc in your education.

[halcyon mortar]

but to downlaod pdf it costs money so screencapped it

Oh, I'm putting that in later, I didn't put it in for now to remain anonymous

[true harness]

just use latex lol

[sleek egret]

it's a bit more graphical for a programmer than the norm... not sure if that's good or bad

[near ocean]

Just make one in word, makin a cv isnt worth any amount of money

[spark cobalt]

Then use something else. People are gonna expect your urls to be a hyperlink they can click, not some image

[pine sleet]

Jake's resume is pretty standard and gets the job done

[halcyon mortar]

isn't latex an entire programming language?

[smoky quest]

• I would avoid multi column formats as they aren't parsed well by ATSes
• Too many buzzwords. Like your first entry can be reduced to "I did cool stuff". Look into Show, don't tell

[near ocean]

Are you not trying to be a programmer?

[spark cobalt]

In the context of this, it's like writing an adoc or md file

[halcyon mortar]

yeah, that is a good point, I don't need to have multiple lines for a github link

[dreamy shadow]

Bullet points are bullet points. Not bullet paragraphs btw.

[smoky quest]

after reading your latest job, I still have no clue what's about or what you did. buzzword overload

[halcyon mortar]

ur right

[sleek egret]

My main general comment is that you should try to be less ambiguous/generic. Instead of saying say "a complex web application", write what the application actually does

generally speaking, ambiguity raises suspicions

[sleek egret]

for example, instead of saying "improved website performance by optimizing code", you want something like "reduced page load latency by 80%" or some such. i.e. when possible, be specific

obviously though, don't overdo it 🙂

[smoky quest]

adding how that performance was achieved can also be quite enticing

[sleek egret]

indeed

[halcyon mortar]

so I fixed the job sections, here it is now

Company 
- Successfully developed and launched an e-commerce application built in React and Redux.
- Designed and implemented a reusable React component library for the company's design system       using CSS-in-JS libraries (Styled Components, Emotion). 
- Successfully migrated an existing web application from a legacy framework to React.
- Identified and resolved difficult bugs and issues in complex React/Redux applications.
- Developed and maintained automated tests for a React application, resulting in improved code     quality and fewer regressions.
- Collaborated and communicated with colleagues to find solutions to problems encountered in the   development cycle.

[true harness]

yes, but it makes your resume absolutely baller. and it's not hard to start

[sleek egret]

is it good to be "absolutely baller"?

[halcyon mortar]

yeah, I got stuff to do, Latex looks long to learn

[near ocean]

Its absolutely ballin

[peak halo]

you don't have to know "all" of latex to use it. if you start with a template, it's not that hard to modify it slightly.

[true harness]

you'll never need to know why 11pt on some documentclasses is not actually 11pt, but 10.95pt, for writing a resume

[celest kite]

LaTeX

[hearty island]

time for my meet & greet for Centene

[true harness]

is that like an interview?

[halcyon mortar]

here's the bulletpoint about my django portfolio thing

- Application for helping gaming-enthusiasts keep track of their vintage game collection
- Successfully designed and built using the Python web-framework Django.
- Effectively utilized Django’s architecture such as creating and managing models, views, and       templates.
- Implemented user authentication and automated testing.
- Utilized Django's ORM to create complex database queries.
- Project showcased on personal Github [INSERT HYPERLINK]

[hearty island]

not really, i think it's more like an intern conference where we hear what we should be expecting for the position

(it's mandatory) 😔

[true harness]

that last bullet is totally unnecessary. just put that in the header for that project.
tone the buzz down. "successfully designed and built" is kinda the bare minimum for a project

[halcyon mortar]

good call

this is much better

Application for helping gaming-enthusiasts keep track of their vintage game collection built using the Python web-framework Django.
Effectively utilized Django’s architecture such as creating and managing models, views, and templates.
Implemented user authentication and automated testing.
Utilized Django's ORM to create complex database queries.

[near ocean]

I think you should talk more about the features of the project instead of "implemented user auth and automated testing", that doesnt say much

[halcyon mortar]

its just a basic app where you add or remove games in your collection

[near ocean]

Maybe that means you should add more features
A simple CRUD app isnt that impressive

[halcyon mortar]

and there is some relationships with like what game console its on, who published it, but its bascially just removing and adding

I think it's just to demonstrate that I know the basics

[true harness]

not to be overly harsh, but it's kinda like putting lipstick on a pig. don't use buzzwords to make a boring app look cool. just make a cool app

[halcyon mortar]

I do have this really complicated game written in Godot, but I'm not sure if a game is relevant

[near ocean]

The basics are not enough, you could blindly follow a tutorial and come up with a project that goes through the basics

[halcyon mortar]

the Godot game I made is super cool, but it's closed source

[vestal kettle]

I feel that is a bigger achievement, writing that on first-job/intern resume won't hurt ... I think

[halcyon mortar]

This will be my third job, and second actually decent job

[near ocean]

How many years exp do you have

[halcyon mortar]

3, but I have a year long gap

[near ocean]

And also what kind of backend job are you aiming for? Entry level? Mid?

[sleek egret]

do you feel old and over the hill yet?

[hearty island]

oh god they keep insisting to turn on cameras. this is going to be fun.

[sleek egret]

they wanna make sure you're not a bot

[halcyon mortar]

I think realistically I prob could get a React job where they also use django. But I guess I won't be the primary django dude

[hearty island]

🤖

[sleek egret]

hah, little do they know

[hearty island]

2023 cohort interns for centene. oh god wait if they tag me on LinkedIn my employer will know

[halcyon mortar]

me getting a fully backend job prob won't happen. Best I can hope for is fullstack with focus on frontend

[smoky quest]

there is nothing more pleasant than conversing into the void/s

[hearty island]

pls don't tag on linkedin

[vestal kettle]

I guess I am in the same shoe as yours. From your CV I guess you are applying for Frontend web developers as well?

[halcyon mortar]

yeah, I def will include my game, even though the code is private and it's still in development

[hearty island]

meeting the university relations team

[vestal kettle]

Then I guess the potential web developer employer won't really check your (offline?) game (but you still need to prepare to demo your game anyway)

I think you can still include it as showing you know generally how to structure your codes/how the game could work

But I am really not sure how much you should write about your game in your CV

[halcyon mortar]

here are bullet points for my game

- Currently building an expansive 2D adventure game using the open-source Godot game engine.
- Created visually compelling user interfaces, animations, and special effects using Godot's       built-in tools and features.
-  Implemented a scalable game architecture that can handle a large number of game assets, NPCs,     and interactive objects.
-  Created an advanced dialogue system that can handle branching narrative paths and complex character interactions.
-  Implemented save and load systems that allow players to save their progress.

[true harness]

instead of "a large number", say how many.
just delete "using Godot's built in ..."
can't you say what the game is about?

[smoky quest]

the main thing is to 👏 demonstrate 👏 skills 👏 and being able to talk in details about them

[vestal kettle]

To be honest I don't really like some of your wordings - "visually compelling", "expansive", "advanced", "complex". They don't really mean anything to me

I hope you are ready to explain how "scalable" is it and why it is scalable.
"visually compelling user interfaces" - I would expect a screenshot if you say so ...

[halcyon mortar]

I don't want to say the story, but I will say its point and click adventure game

[sleek egret]

someone should write an adventure game where you can skip the pointing part and go strait to the clicking part

[near ocean]

With this wording you open yourself up to be interrogated on every single flashy description

[halcyon mortar]

I def can provide screenshots

[sleek egret]

it's not just an internship, it's an internship experience!

[hearty island]

yo this sounds pretty cool

[halcyon mortar]

I have a system for managing having a lot of rooms and npcs, but its not super complex

@mar yeah I think I need to remove all the flashy language

[sleek egret]

yes, but are you diverse?

[hearty island]

i can put the cool capstone project on my resume

finally an internship where i do meaningful shit

[halcyon mortar]

wait lemme change something

- Currently building a 2D choose-your-own-adventure game using the open-source Godot game engine.
- Implemented system for interacting with objects in game-world to solve puzzles
- Programmed game’s user-interface based on mockups designed with Figma.
- Created a dialogue system to handle branching narrative paths and character interactions.
- Implemented save and load systems that allow players to save their progress

this is much better, less flashy

[vestal kettle]

This is better than before.
But trying to relate your game to the frontend position ... I guess you have to figure out the best way to related them together
And I am still not sure how much should you write about your game (comparing to your work experience) when applying web dev frontend jobs

[halcyon mortar]

its heavily ui intensive game

[hearty island]

i asked about full time opportunities after the internship and they were like that's the goal of the internship and you should definitely network around to see if there's any openings

[halcyon mortar]

It should be fine, I can always send them screenshots

should I bother putting a node crud app from 4 years ago on the resume?

[cerulean path]

put everything on a resume

[true harness]

if you have nothing better. but have you really done nothing better in 4 years?

[halcyon mortar]

I had a bad 2019

[true harness]

and a bad 2020, 2021, 2022?

[cerulean path]

a dead 2020 2021 2022

[sleek egret]

like an everything bagel?

[halcyon mortar]

I didn't code off work in 2020-2021-2022

[sleek egret]

what did you do?

[halcyon mortar]

damn, I screwed myself over 😓

[cerulean path]

if anything goes bad uh i'm only human after all don't put the blame on me + i'm 15 and my only job experience is freelancing

[halcyon mortar]

I only coded for my job, I had other hobbies. It sucks I have to be punished for not coding 24/7 outside a job

[sleek egret]

being blamed for things you didn't do or that are beyond your control is good life experience

[vestal kettle]

Oh, that is another me in this world ...

[true harness]

do you have an updated resume? i'm sure you've changed it a lot, and it'd give us some background to make recommendations. (i hope you started using a better template)

[halcyon mortar]

I am making one rn

[cerulean path]

your logic is more wrong than my code

[halcyon mortar]

in google docs, but will have family friends look it over. I'm not gonna put the node thing on it tbh

[true harness]

google docs 💀

[sleek egret]

it has nothing to do with logic

[vestal kettle]

Maybe you will feel better after looking at me:
2020: Quit the job
2021: Move to new country
2022-Now: Still cannot look for any jobs, even big chain restaurant/food shops don't bother to give me a chance of interview

[halcyon mortar]

If a company is upset that I had a life outside programming, that's their problem

[cerulean path]

then what does it have to do

[sleek egret]

having a sense of humor, lol

[halcyon mortar]

that sounds rough

[hearty island]

god they have us doing icebreakers over zoom and it's so awkward

[cerulean path]

mine is more like:
1990 - 2022 July: uncultured doesn't know how to code nor have basics in programming or just general knowledge about computers
2022 August - Now: pretend programmer

[cerulean path]

what's icebreakers lol

[near ocean]

Thats not what this is about

[hearty island]

short questions about yourself like what do you do for fun and stuff like that

[cerulean path]

ohh

[vestal kettle]

If you even have a job (no need to be programming related even though this is a Python server), you are much better off than me already

[halcyon mortar]

Then wahts the alternative? Don't apply for jobs cuz not enough portfolio projects? Should I just be a NEET my whole life

[true harness]

oh that was an accident, didn't mean to do that lol. anyways, you have experience, so you're clearly not a NEET, lol

[cerulean path]

how the hell do i get a job i'm 15 + i can't waste my time on work and let my education aside

[true harness]

summer

[near ocean]

You have big gaps in your experience, if you didnt work during that time then what do you were you doing to show you kept up your skills

[halcyon mortar]

the past is the past

[vestal kettle]

Just try. For my case I feel I may never be able to go back to the IT industry anymore.

From the local job posts I can see, you have much better chance than me

[cerulean path]

oh god i hated those even though i got a lot of pocket money

[halcyon mortar]

So what? I just be a bum my whole life cuz I had a crippling depression in 2019 that almsot ruined my life?

[cerulean path]

and if i took one last summer i would've never became a programmer

[halcyon mortar]

don't like this mentality, I am putting my django project on my resume, and I'm proud I made it

[rotund cove]

sounds good

[near ocean]

No, but youre trying to get into stuff you dont have experience with and only having a month's worth of projects and familiarity
It doesnt hurt to be realistic

[halcyon mortar]

I'm honestly just going to apply to full stack jobs

I don't have a choice, I can't avoid React jobs. I'll still put the django thing to demonstrate I can learn new tech. It is what it is

[sleek egret]

what's a NEET?

[cerulean path]

does full stack mean like front back end jobs

[true harness]

"no education, experience, training". it's a more uh... derogatory term

[sleek egret]

ah. gracias por los explanatos

[halcyon mortar]

I have a small react app I built to play a blackjack mini game, but its from 2019. I guess I'll use it

[cerulean path]

is learning a lot of languages good

[halcyon mortar]

honeslt, I'm just not gonna bother putting any. I feel like an imposter. I'm not some wizkid who made some famous javascript library

[cerulean path]

because i learned like java c++ javascript bash but like i barely use them

[true harness]

a lot of languages without any depth is probably a bad idea. a lot of languages with a lot of depth is probably good

[vapid jay]

Makes sense ^

[cerulean path]

well the only languages that i actually went deep into are python and c#

[peak halo]

not necessarily. I've never met a professional developer who identified themselves as "knowing" a specific set of languages. (and when I was a linguistics student, and people asked how many human languages I know, I would say "none".)

[cerulean path]

i meant programming languages

[ivory sluice]

from an outside third party perspective, you're catastrophizing. you have stuff to put on your resume, so hone it, and start applying. if you get no callbacks for interviews/OAs then identify why, and keep going

[peak halo]

I know. but like public static said, knowing the basic syntax and high-level features of several languages isn't that useful. narrow depth is harder to obtain and more valuable than shallow breadth.

[dreamy spade]

Unbelievable. I just randomly came across a former registered nurse’s LinkedIn profile page who is now a Senior Front-End Developer. Nursing was their only educational background and somehow landed a tech job meanwhile I went to two colleges that taught me Computer Science and I didn’t land a tech job…

[vestal kettle]

My job application history if anyone is interested:
Applied to most jobs, basically only got rejected and no interview/reply, no feedback at all. Even if I ask them they just tell me they cannot say why

For some of the jobs I have an interview:
Junior System-Admin-like role: Rejected as I don't have enough related Ops experience (I have ~2 years), they said they feel I didn't grow enough
Junior Python Backend dev (while 33% of job description talks about Operations and stuff I worked): Rejected as I don't have enough developer experience (Partially my bad, not talking older job of full-stack Ruby Web dev experiences, but the interviewer did not ask much as well)
Technician (while expected to know Sys Admin stuff): Rejected as I clearly don't have experience in hardware related stuff
Support: As above - failed aptitude test

[near ocean]

Theres HS kids in here that could code circles around you and me
Its not that big of a deal

[rotund cove]

getting your first developer job is tough... I think I applied to about 100 positions and only got two call backs; just keep at it

[near ocean]

Self pity and saltiness really shouldnt belong in this channel

[true harness]

fr. save that for the OTs where there's no cooldown

[near ocean]

Or at least make it funny, otherwise it gets old way fast

[ivory sluice]

yes it comes off very entitled and there's no need to rant negatively about a person that managed to secure a programming job. your bitterness is not going to serve you and it will also make this community a less enjoyable space to spend time in

[halcyon mortar]

being jealous and bitter gets you nowhere

[peak halo]

let's not pile on, though.

job hunting is brutal. but the demand for developers is there.

[spark cobalt]

If you're struggling to find a job, it may be good to talk to someone that actually did find a job you're aiming for in this market with a similar background, as well as hiring managers in this sphere as well.

It's not some impossible feat, many people are being hired everyday for these positions, it's just a matter of knowing how, and continuously learning to iterate over how to improve your job search.

This isn't some black box that is intangible when not only every developer having went through this, but the thousands that have done it today, and yesterday, and so on.

[vestal kettle]

If I were you, I would just put Django in as skill I know. But I won't use it as a showcase. I would put focus on frontend stuff while trying to tell the employer "I can do backend" (But I have a brutal experience of looking for backend jobs)

I have a small react app I built to play a blackjack mini game, but its from 2019.
I would also put this as well.

[vestal kettle]

I guess this is an advice for me but I don't even know any people in this country.

[spark cobalt]

LinkedIn, online communities, tech meetups/conferences, colleges, etc. are some of the good places to start.

[vestal kettle]

Here has been the only online community I know

[spark cobalt]

It's not really about not knowing, but not trying to know for this respect. Or at least, not trying enough.

[spark cobalt]

There's hundreds, possibly thousands of CS-centric communities larger than this one, and even more that are smaller. Nearly every niche has some sort of Slack channel, or Discord server, etc. A lot of CS is building progress, and it's hard to make that happen if there's no communication, especially online communication

[vestal kettle]

I would rather spend time on job searching or practicing instead (but it has not been working for year)

I don't feel like going to other server then suddenly ask "how is your job searching"

[spark cobalt]

Well, personally I'd try to figure out how to job search and how/what to practice before actually doing it. And that comes with talking with people who successfully achieved it, collect the common traits of all these people and then apply the less common traits to your specific case.

To each their own I guess

Super hard to make a plan if you don't know what the plan should contain. Would end up being like scrambling and reaching out in darkness

[hearty island]

finished the centene meet & greet

i’m excited bc if they’re offering full time roles i will make sure to snatch them

[vital wyvern]

Throwing this out to the broader community to solicit some feedback.

Background: I was offered an internship, given a choice of locations to work from, made my choice based on proximity to me, and prepared my life to move for this job for the 2 month internship. Nowhere in the job application process was it made remotely clear to me that this was a remote position. I had to get an apartment last minute as some plans fell through, and I'm now paying about $2000/mo for my apartment. Additionally, the dress code wasn't revealed to me, nor is it in the employee manual that was distributed. However, when I asked, I was told "Business." I asked if that meant business casual, and the onboarding team chuckled and replied "It's a bank." (indicating that my assumption wasn't accurate, and I was underdressing.) So I had to go out basically last minute and switch from Business Casual wardrobe to a suit and tie getup. This was another significant cost.

I've reached out to my apartment, with whom I scheduled a move in date for at the end of this week, to let them know I would likely be turning down this internship. If they keep the security deposit, I'm still making money back compared to what I'd spend living in this town for the short internship.

Regretfully, I will be rescinding my internship with <company> effective immediately. While I am and continue to be overjoyed and impressed with the hiring managers and team that you have assembled to welcome me into your organization, I cannot in good conscience remedy the fact that at numerous points in the hiring process I indicated that I would be relocating to perform this job. I was never offered the information that a remote position was an option your organization would entertain. This was discussed with Mr. <person> at one point upon my job offer being extended, where I very clearly conveyed that this would be something I was doing in pursuit of this opportunity. 

It is at this point, several days from beginning my internship, that I am just now finding this information out. While I was prepared to incur the financial burden of relocating in support of this internship, the knowledge that this could've been averted by clear communication is a non-negotiable pain point in this process.

I wish you nothing but the best in your future endeavors.

Please let me know where to return the supplied work materials to, and if any other deliverables are due back to your organization as part of the termination.

Regards,
Rem."```

Does this seem like a fair reaction? I have already asked for a remote position, but the reply I received was that since I already had an apartment, they would prefer I moved. They offered to pay a relocation allowance upon successful completion of the internship and hiring with the company, but I have no intentions of working for the company beyond the internship, nor do I think that gamble is fair to pass onto me.

[gritty rivet]

What an irritating situation. Your response seems reasonable to me, given unreasonable circumstances. Hopefully you can still manage to find an internship somewhere that isn't such a shitshow. I just found out today that my company is opening a summer internship so hopefully that's an indication that it's not too late

[vital wyvern]

Frankly, I don't... need an internship at all. This internship isn't in a field I'm particularly interested in.

[dreamy shadow]

You have existing work experience right?

[vital wyvern]

8 years worth, but military, so a little different.

I start school in the fall for Cybersecurity. My grants will be over $40K in my pocket per year on top of entirely free school and free housing.

[dreamy shadow]

Couple of questions then:

1. Will you still take this internship if it was remote instead of in-person?
2. If not taking this internship, is there something else that will take up the internship time that will help your future career in Cybersecurity?

[gritty rivet]

I wouldn't underestimate the value of a good internship. It's pretty key to finding a good job when you graduate. But that's not necessarily an argument against your decision in this particular instance

[vital wyvern]

1.) Probably not. Like I said, this is a failure in communication that ends up costing me significant money because a circumstance in the job wasn't communicated clearly. I told the hiring managers that I valued integrity greatly, and to me, this is a massive breach in that trust between employer and employee.
2.) I have other things I can work on that I would consider effective use of my time. I am developing a few cybersecurity tools, I have the Dragonfly project for PyPI open source security, etc.

[vital wyvern]

I don't underestimate the value so much as I look at the cost benefit here. I'm net loss about $1500 to relocate my entire life to another city for two months, for a job that I don't want to continue pursuing.

Actually probably closer to $2000 loss.

To be clear, the added free time would be used on Cybersecurity certifications and whatnot, so still furthering my career, just in a different direction.

[dreamy shadow]

I understand the miscommunication somewhere is a large net cost and is frankly quite frustrating. With that said, I would phrase the email s.t. it's more direct to the point without sounding like a rant.

[vital wyvern]

Hmm. Would you mind giving me an example? I am concerned that being too short will be conveyed as overly rude or unprofessional.

[dreamy shadow]

If your full on set not taking the internship, something like:
(Some editing required. Goal is to not directly blame them, even if they are at fault 2000%, and to reduce verbose.)

Good Morning,

Regretfully, I will be rescinding my internship with <company> effective immediately. While {I am and continue to be overjoyed and impressed with the hiring managers and team that you have assembled to welcome me into your organization}('I am impressed with the hiring team" ?Shorten this somehow.), I cannot justify the financial burden of relocating in support of this internship. Unfortunately, I was not told this position could be remote at the time of hiring. 

Please let me know where to return the supplied work materials to, and if any other deliverables are due back to your organization as part of the termination.

Best Regards,
Rem.

O.W. I would first try to ask for them to add on a relocation bonus.

[vital wyvern]

I don't need a relocation bonus, I'm not doing the job lol.

All of the bonuses they offer are contingent on me doing the internship successfully and being hired afterward.

[dreamy shadow]

Ok, that's fair if you don't want to do full time after.

[vital wyvern]

Correct, this was just a way to kill 2 months during the spring with a lucrative internship opportunity. If they had, at any point, told me that I did not need to relocate to do this program, then we'd be golden.

It's more the sheer irritation I harbor that multiple individuals were aware that I was relocating for this internship and never bothered to let me know that I had alternatives available to me.

[summer roost]

Does this seem like a fair reaction? I have already asked for a remote position, but the reply I received was that since I already had an apartment, they would prefer I moved.
It's not unfair, but, as a counterpoint: you're likely to get much more out of an in-person internship than a remote one. I understand your frustration, but I'd worry you might be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[dreamy shadow]

Yes, I fully understand. And sometimes they might not have known, or it just didn't occur to them. Most of the time it's incompetence rather than malice.
At least for future positions, you will know to ask. (At least you don't have to sell a house).

[vital wyvern]

I understand this entirely, but I'm not sure-- I don't know man, this is such a rough position to be in. I'm in the hole on this internship, and they had every opportunity to keep that from happening. That, like I said, is something that I find irreconcilable.

[dreamy shadow]

Your contact info can be one line:
123-456-789 ● [e-mail] ● linkedin/in/boblee ● github.com/boblee
Or some other deliminator.

[true harness]

you should write more about your experience. they have more weight than your projects, and especially more than the projects you didn't want to put

huh

[halcyon mortar]

omg, I forgot to edit out my phone number

[dreamy shadow]

lmao

[true harness]

you can expect a call soon 😔

to avoid this i just have a switch in latex that toggles all my PII off

[halcyon mortar]

the first job I had was a really bad experience that didn't end well, would rather avoid it tbh

second job was my first great job, I feel, that's why it has so much written for it

[true harness]

why put it on your resume then. and even if it was a bad experience, you definitely did something more interesting than "blackjack mini-game built in react"

[halcyon mortar]

I'd rather not talk about it

[dreamy shadow]

Doesn't matter if it didn't end well. You need to be able to talk about it and justify it.
"I failed to do X, and learned Y."

[halcyon mortar]

it was awful, I was bullied and had to see a therapist

[true harness]

it makes for a great answer to "name a struggle", "name a challenge", etc

[halcyon mortar]

it was not a good or healthy job and I don't want to talk about it. In fact, I want to remove it from resume

[dreamy shadow]

A gap will count against you. Edit: Especially by automated systems.

[halcyon mortar]

Yeah, I'm just removing it, these stupid corporate dbags thing people need to have spotless records

[summer roost]

most people have had bad jobs. I don't think removing it from your resume is a good idea.

[halcyon mortar]

I don't feel comforable talking about it

[dreamy shadow]

Talk about the job, not the environment.

[halcyon mortar]

I don't want to

I guess I will just give it one brief line Worked as Front-End developer and leave it at that

[vestal kettle]

Could you just talk about the technical details but skipping everything else? In my interview experiences, no one asked stuff before my last job

[halcyon mortar]

I'm feeling upset thinkng about it rn

[summer roost]

ultimately it's your call, but that's likely to draw more attention than if you gave some good bullet points that describe the work that you did. So would leaving a gap.

[halcyon mortar]

I will just remove it from my resume then

[summer roost]

that will draw attention, too.

[dreamy shadow]

Frankly, a recruiter's going to toss the resume seeing either of the latter two.

[halcyon mortar]

ugh, FINE, I guess I have to write a sentence I guess

[summer roost]

I wouldn't go that far, but I would say that either of them would make it harder to land a job than giving some appropriate description of the previous job

[halcyon mortar]

Worked as a front-end developer on an AI-Training program ugh, I REALLY don't want them to ask about this job and rhese psyhcos who nearly ruined my life

[vestal kettle]

I guess it is a trauma for you even if the job is mentioned...?

[halcyon mortar]

I don't feel comfortable talking about them

[vestal kettle]

Oh dear, that is a big hardship for you.

[halcyon mortar]

I need to get over it, but I don't want it to be detailed. Its not what I want to talk about with emplyers

[summer roost]

you may want to discuss this with your therapist, if you're finding yourself getting this upset by the prospect of needing to say a few brief, rehearsed sentences about that experience.

[halcyon mortar]

ur right

[summer roost]

they may be able to suggest specific strategies for what you can say and how to avoid needing to give more details than you're comfortable with.

[halcyon mortar]

I was getting interviews without having bullet points for that job

[vestal kettle]

That's why we suggest just write the technical details only.
... But I guess one of the potential problem is that your future employer may contact them for reference/proof of employment history

That can be rough for you

[halcyon mortar]

they are no more

[dreamy shadow]

Well, what about the other one that's empty?

[halcyon mortar]

which one? I was talking about the very last one

[dreamy shadow]

Freelance

[halcyon mortar]

I was depressed, at home, its a lie

because these psycho recruiters hate people, and think they must have a spotlesss record

Okay, I did do freelance for one company in 2020

[true harness]

lying is a great way to make the psychos reject you on the spot

[summer roost]

no, they don't. Neither of those things are true, and holding on to those assumptions is only gonna hurt you.

[smoky quest]

that's not true at all

[halcyon mortar]

I'm sorry, I'm not thinking straight

[hearty island]

it’s best not to lie on your resume

[dreamy shadow]

What? Wdym? I was VP at Circuit City!

[halcyon mortar]

but if I tell the truth, they will reject me for "having a gap"

[summer roost]

gaps or jobs that ended on poor terms are things that they'll want to ask about. They're things that you'd want to ask about, if you were hiring someone.

if you have a good explanation for a gap, that's more than enough.

[smoky quest]

the problem is not with having the gap. But what you have done with that time, how you present it, and how that reflects on you

[halcyon mortar]

I'm just gonna be honest with them I was suffering from crippling depression

[summer roost]

that's absolutely a better call than lying.

[hardy forge]

unless it's a 10 year gap ... more or less

[summer roost]

even a 10 year gap is fine, if you have a reasonable explanation.

[hardy forge]

(various startups and whatnot)

[halcyon mortar]

is it really a lie if I did do freelance for one company?

[dreamy shadow]

I won the lottery, and ran out of money.

[summer roost]

"I dropped out of the workforce to raise my children" is a really common one, for instance.

[hardy forge]

it depends on how you feel about discussing that with your coworkers in the future

[summer roost]

that's not a bad one, either. 🙂

[true harness]

maybe a red flag in terms of management skills lol

[hardy forge]

having a gap sucks, but you can make it up

[vestal kettle]

If I were the employer, I will just ask what have you done for that freelance job.

[halcyon mortar]

I am going to stretch the truth. I did do freelance for a company in 2020

People streth the truth all the time, why should I be any different

[summer roost]

only if the amount you won is something that someone could have retired on. You might have won a few years worth of salary, and decided to spend it traveling while you're young, or something.

[hardy forge]

you could just tell them you were depressed (which depends on how you feel about that), but it was common at that time

[dreamy shadow]

Those with management skills wouldn't buy a ticket in the first place.

[uncut quest]

If they ask you about what you did during the freelancing years, I feel like you should be able to discuss some of the projects / work you did during those years - and maybe the technologies you used.

[halcyon mortar]

I will tell them about one or two

[true harness]

but if you calculate that the expected value of a ticket is higher than the cost of the ticket like those mathematicians did that one time...

[halcyon mortar]

I'm just gonna leave my resume as it is. If I don't get any results, then I will obviosly fill in more details

[true harness]

why? you have people that actually do/did hiring telling you what you should change in order to have a better chance

[halcyon mortar]

I added this last line Worked on AI Training program at startup using React.js

added it to the last job on it, but just that line and nothing else

[hardy forge]

they probably won't reach out to the company you hated working at, if you're worried about that

[dreamy shadow]

Try expanding the projects as well. e.g. Blackjack game & word challenge.

[hardy forge]

i went through similar situations. i can't stand thinking about specific periods of time because it really spirals me out of control

[halcyon mortar]

yeah, its rough

[vestal kettle]

I would say that you need to be able to justify whatever you write on your CV.
If you can do so, great.

[hardy forge]

try to stay focused on what can be possible in the future

[dreamy shadow]

Normally a background check will verify employment duration. The old company themselves won't provide more than employment history + re-hire-ability. Anything beyond that is lawsuit territory.

[hardy forge]

they seriously can't even contact the former employer most of the time

yeh i really wish i had known that much earlier. i hate looking for jobs. i like working on stuff and learning. that's always where i'm headed, but it's pretty tough to think about the past.

[summer roost]

you have time to rehearse now, before you wind up in an interview setting. You're trying to tell a story about yourself that convinces the new company that you're worth hiring. You should be able to come up with a story about how you spent your last 4 years that is both true and flattering, given all the time you have to rehearse.

[vestal kettle]

I had trouble with getting reference as well - my boss of last job can't remember what happened and cannot "recommend" me (3 years before)

[uncut quest]

I had a whole document about my elevator pitch / resume details. It's amazing how I end up forgetting small details of projects I was completely invested in at some point because of newer stuff I'm currently working on.

[summer roost]

I can't imagine employers caring much about whether previous employers "recommend" you or not. At most they'd care whether you were dismissed for cause (e.g. caught stealing, or something)

[dreamy shadow]

They really only can say if you are rehireable or not. Otherwise HR has failed. (As a binary yes or no)

[halcyon mortar]

here are better description for blackjack and word challenge

Blackjack mini-game built in React, where you play a game of blackjack against an AI via a public API known as deckofcardsapi

A game built in React that tests your typing speed. Used Tachyons and Animate.css for styling and animations.

[vestal kettle]

The thing that very sucks is that I asked why they want to get reference and they ghost me.
They even say that they don't want to call my previous boss since it is a overseas call and would cost them money. They insisted me to convince the last boss to fill in the electronic form they sent.
I have a physical reference letter as proof but they don't care.

And everything is called "pre-employment" check

[dreamy shadow]

Why references should be self explanatory. Although, these days I find it rare for people to ask for them.

[true harness]

• leaving an empty bullet in your freelance section just makes it look unfinished
• the bullet on the last job is indented too far
• the spacing between the dividers (the ----------------------- things) is inconsistent from your projects and your experience

[halcyon mortar]

yeah, the spacing and stuff will fix later, family member said they would help me with it

[summer roost]

since it is a overseas call and would cost them money
It's really weird for a company to complain about spending a dollar or two.

you may have dodged a bullet on that one.

[vestal kettle]

My understanding is references == proof of employement
But when I try to ask them to clarify they ghost me

[halcyon mortar]

What should I put in freelance section?

[vestal kettle]

The problem is I am out of job for long time and have to try everything and that really sucks

[true harness]

describe what you did as a freelancer. what cool things did you do. remember, it's all about 👏 demonstrated 👏 skills 👏

[halcyon mortar]

Worked with startups on fixes and features for their front-ends

[true harness]

that's incredibly vague. why is that interesting to someone that wants to hire you? did your feature bring them more traffic? did it increase the SEO?

[halcyon mortar]

I got hired by a company that couldn't get funding and didn't even have a good SEO

[summer roost]

what technologies did you use? What tools? What sorts of front-ends were they?

[halcyon mortar]

I just used React

[true harness]

so did you improve that? what was the impact of your work

[halcyon mortar]

I don't remember, all I remember is that their animations were really bad, and there was one other company that had an awful mobile site in React Native that I greatly improved

And I came in and made their front ends look nice

I used Chakra UI, and React Native, and also Material UI

[summer roost]

think of a resume as an ad for your services. Like a flyer advertising an upcoming carnival, or something like that. Your goal with a resume is to make employers want your services. If you can't explain what exactly your services are, it makes it a whole lot less likely that employers will want to buy them.

[vestal kettle]

These are the details that you definitely should mention in CV

[dreamy shadow]

Question: Are there good resources on crafting career goals (as a data scientist?)

[halcyon mortar]

Utilized React and associated technologies such as Redux, Material-UI, and CSS-In-JS libraries to create responsive and interactive user interfaces for client applications.

[dreamy shadow]

I saw the company's competency matrix they created today, but it's too insurance/actuarial sided.

[summer roost]

that's much better.

[uncut quest]

let's gooo

[vestal kettle]

I would prefer seeing the word animation as that is what you have done and improved while providing enough details about the work

[halcyon mortar]

it's all hazy, I don't even remember what animation for who. But it's a good summary

[vestal kettle]

I am worried about what will happen if they ask you more details during the interview though. I know that was years before but you need to think about that

[halcyon mortar]

I def will

this is a good starting resume, I just need to learn how to use a word document thing again

[true harness]

you should pick a common template, like jake's resume. it's the second pin

[halcyon mortar]

I'll check it out

here it is as of now

[true harness]

also, in the latest job entry, you mention React like 7 times. i think it's a bit repetitive

[halcyon mortar]

if it helps with that thing that searches keywords, it should be fine

[true harness]

you only need it once to be picked up by an ATS. a human reading it (i did, at least) would be annoyed
personally, i think the "identified and ... difficult bugs" bullet point can be removed entirely. i don't think it adds that much to the project, and removing it would give you more space for other things

[halcyon mortar]

made some changes, less React mentions

[dreamy shadow]

Starting to look much better!

[true harness]

is this the same app you're referencing in all the bullets? i.e., was the existing web application the e-commerce app?

[halcyon mortar]

there was an old app built in Blazzor ASP.net, and the new app built in React, and a different React app, and another old ASP.NET app I did some bug fixes for

[true harness]

ah. you probably want to clarify that they were separate apps, maybe by describing them. the reason i suggested not mentioning react so many times was because i thought they were all referencing the same thing

[halcyon mortar]

yeah good call. There is this line from my old resume I will add:

Worked on and maintained legacy code bases written in ASP.NET

Which is true

At one point, I had to debug and fix old Backbone.js code

oh man, my IIS would break constantly lol

I never got to write any of the API calls (they never let me), but I did a lot of work on old Blazzor code and the front end parts of ASP.NET

Should I add the ASP.NET part? But I don't want them to think I was the backend C# guy (I wasn't)

[halcyon mortar]

I guess I won't put it, don't want to cause confusion

[knotty drum]

Damn what should i put in work exp if i dont have work experience as a programmer?

[lethal quiver]

actually curious about this too

[deft herald]

Relevant projects/education

A typical resume for like an intern will have a projects section instead of work experience (unless they had a prior internship)

[summer roost]

whatever work experience you do have

[summer roost]

they'd typically have a larger projects section than work experience, but they would still list whatever prior experience they have - retail or fast food or whatever

[pine sleet]

What if you don't have any prior work experience whatsoever 👀

[summer roost]

I mean, then you wouldn't have a work experience section. But if you do have experience, even if it's not "relevant", you should still list it, because it still shows that you can show up somewhere on time every day. All jobs build some useful soft skills.

[smoky quest]

You can only work with what you have

It doesn't mean you will be rejected

[pine sleet]

That's fair ~ just worried about that very first internship or job

[smoky quest]

<@&831776746206265384> ads

[vapid jay]

Hey, please do you think someone can use anyhow PC to start game development in Python?

[smoky quest]

Hi! This has nothing to do with this channel.
You may want to check #❓｜how-to-get-help or #game-development

[signal crane]

Can someone share their coding job first or hardest project experience

[smoky quest]

depends how tasteful it is and how customer facing the role would be (and the type of customers)

that will depend mostly on the culture of the people interviewing you.
Could go as bad as the it crowd episode on craddle of filfth, or on the other end, no one would care. But that still depends on the tatto, as you would get a very different reaction from a tribal tattoo from a giant dick or murder tattoo

[jovial ridge]

Im trying to get a job in IT or just computer science in general (not sure which to pick yet). Im pretty young and hasn't taken any major

But im new into programming, i don't know what will happen into the future, question for the Senior programming. Do you think AI will take over? The way GPT-4 Writes code is already impressive and this is the time where AI is actually at it's best Development. So im a bit Worried about my future carrier with This, should i still focus on CS?

[near ocean]

Bruh we have this discussion every single day, can someone pin something about gpt4 not being on topic for the channel

Or maybe a good response to this question so we can point to that

[jovial ridge]

Lmao. Sorry, but im actually pretty worried in general. And it's still kind of On topic since im discussing on whether i should focus on CS as a career?

[near ocean]

tl;dr dev jobs are not affected
And no this isnt on topic, the same way worrying about whether you should go to school because of climate issues isnt on topic

[jovial ridge]

Kay.

[buoyant seal]

it is not anywhere close to competing with devs for the moment or nearby future.
Considering whole dev complexity, we can be sure it will be the last job automated by AI when everything else will be automated before that
if AI good enough to be dev will be developed, we will have first to worry about Terminators, Apocalypse and Machine taking over the world potentially first ^_^ in this case, you will still be in demand as developer in resistance! 🙂

[analog sun]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[jovial ridge]

Thanks! Im a beginner, sorry if this question has been asked millions of time. Im just very cautious on career

[gritty rivet]

No career is guaranteed. Any profession you choose will require life-long learning. I've significantly changed my career trajectory three times in 5 years. If you see job openings right now that interest you, worry about how you get those jobs. The rest will sort itself out after that.

[jovial ridge]

Thanks man. But tbh i worded it wrong there, Im pretty young (not even highschool by definition in my country), I just want to plan out the future. Do you have any tips?

Dw, im old enough to be here.

[gritty rivet]

Just keep learning how to learn. When you get to high school you can start planning for university. Before that the best thing you can do is explore whatever interests you and find out what kind of work you might really enjoy doing the most and be good at doing

[jovial ridge]

Im good at english, shorta. I mean if you compare it to average student, im excellent in english.
But english major don't eat well yk? That's why im planning to focus on CS, since im Pretty interested in Computers, i grew up around computers and pretty much everything needs computer nowdays. But thanks

But seriously, The payment for Cs job isn't as good as the US here. Atleast that's what my research said throughout the internet

Is anyone here from indonesia? How's the payment?

[near ocean]

Anywhere you might be, software probably pays more than average

Dont look at other countries, look at the average in the country you're in

[jovial ridge]

Well yeah, no shit. But as i was saying Cs related Job doesn't pay as much as it is in other country here. Which obviously worries me when we account Inflation and How much i would get if i Work Overseas.

But yeah true, Software do pays more than average, but compared to like the us, it's pretty small. Although i never met A CS major irl

[near ocean]

Well yeah, no shit.
Goes on to make the comparison i urge they dont make 💀
Are you planning to move to and work in the US?

[jovial ridge]

I urge they dont make
What does that even mean. Im just saying that the payment here is quite low when you compared it to other country.

And if possible, yes

[near ocean]

Theres others costs youre ignoring
How much do you pay for food in indonesia, rent? Transport? Healthcare?

[jovial ridge]

Well im not ignoring that. That's why im asking if there's anyone here that is an indonesian and works at Cs related job

And to say, i don't know any of the payment necessary in indonesia

[near ocean]

Glassdoor says this

[jovial ridge]

For senior?

[near ocean]

Thats average across all levels

[jovial ridge]

I see. It's pretty big yeah

How much is the average in the us?

[near ocean]

100k$ or something close

[jovial ridge]

So about 8K a month?

[near ocean]

Around, yes, pretax

[jovial ridge]

Did the math

A monthly payment is equal to a yearly payment in indonesia, yikes

[near ocean]

No you did not, you didnt calculate taxes, rent, transport, food, etc

You could possibly be living a better life in indonesia but you're not seeing it because "muh big numbers"

[jovial ridge]

Im not accounting other number, yes

[near ocean]

My mom's an ACCA certified accountant of many decades, i outearn her but she's still living better than i am

[jovial ridge]

Im just calculating raw numbers. Dude

[near ocean]

Raw numbers mean nothing my guy, thats what im trying to tell you

[jovial ridge]

You're right.

Let me just google it

"Cost of living in Indonesia is, on average, 56.4% lower than in United States. Rent in Indonesia is, on average, 80.2% lower than in United States."

[gritty rivet]

I know Indonesia pretty well (bahasa Indonesia sedikit juga!) but I'm from the US.... Regardless of where you settle long term, I would say it's a very worthwhile goal to study abroad

[jovial ridge]

Yep. That's why im getting some english certificates in highschool. It's needed if there's any chance for Student exhange.

That's pretty cool tho, where did you learn? @gritty rivet

[gritty rivet]

I did a couple of summer programs, one in the US and another at UNM in Malang.... In a past life I was a sociologist doing research about palm oil plantations, have only been working as a software engineer for about a year

[jovial ridge]

In a past life? And how was it?

[gritty rivet]

Making a living as a sociologist was hard. I enjoyed teaching and research but it was hard to find a steady and good paying job. I got financially desperate and started doing desktop support for a while, gradually worked on my programming skills. I like what I do now too (writing API integrations for banks) and am making a decent living

[jovial ridge]

Good for you man. But what do you mean in a past life?

[gritty rivet]

It's just an expression meaning that in previous years my life was very different

LOL, I love the example #2 here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/past_life

[jovial ridge]

Ah lol. I thought you literally meant as in you believe in reincarnation

[sleek egret]

billions of people believe in reincarnation

[hearty island]

my mom does

[gritty rivet]

Some might even believe they are reincarnated from dead sociologists, but I do not

[sleek egret]

those who believe believe you will be reincarnated regardless of your belief

[hearty island]

is it just me or do easy apply jobs on linkedin seem scammy

i’m debating just keeping the filter off and seeing my success rate

[near ocean]

Scammy how? You might not get the same response rate

[hearty island]

like most of the project management positions i see are easy apply

just feels weird there’s no external application

well you can’t filter out easy apply the filter doesn’t work on LinkedIn

[near ocean]

It is weird i guess yea, never thought of it
I kind of assumed theyre just autofilled by linkedin and that might be dodgy autofilling so i just fired and forgor'd💀

[gritty rivet]

It's not that most easy apply jobs are scams... But I do try to apply directly when it's an option, and just be a bit circumspect when it's not

[hearty island]

damn a recruiter said she would get back to me but i think i got ghosted

[deft herald]

When did she say that?

[hearty island]

yesterday

[true harness]

one day is not enough time lol

[deft herald]

yeah fr

[deft herald]

you haven't been ghosted yet 😄

[hearty island]

i’ll email them in a couple of days if they haven’t gotten back to me

[true harness]

at least a week lol

[hearty island]

well i told them i was available on friday for an interview

so if they wait past friday i’m assuming the interview isn’t going to happen

[uncut quest]

They're probably trying to figure out a time that works both for the interviewer and interviewee

I'd assume the interviewer is also interviewing other candidates

[hearty island]

probably

[gritty rivet]

They may assume that. If you're still interested after Friday you could follow up

I would avoid giving a recruiter an implied ultimatum if you're genuinely interested in the position

[hearty island]

they may just rescind the interview entirely bc i graduate may 2024. wouldn’t be surprising.

i had a place do that like two days ago. the one i referred my friend to

[hardy blade]

Why are software engineers expected to go through so many hoops in the interview process just to land a job, whereas managers, senior managers, directors etc have a much easier time and can pretty much get the job without having to prepare as much?

[deft herald]

whereas managers, senior managers, directors etc have a much easier time and can pretty much get the job without having to prepare as much?
Do you have a source on that?

[hardy blade]

I mean, engineers have to go through so many leetcode and system design interviews + behavioral interviews.

I had a manager in the past who wasn't technical at all and He ended up moving onto a much better (FAANG) company.

I've also seen him write code and it was terrible, no offense to him. My assumption is that he had an easier time making the transition than I would if I were to apply to FAANGs

[uncut quest]

I'm not sure if this is true, but I've always thought some non-SWE roles have more competition. And experience weighs more heavily. Maybe that explains the "less hoops" thing? But then again - idk if it's entirely true.

[hardy blade]

I guess this makes sense, there are way less positions the further up you go up in the chain, so more competition for those roles

[deft herald]

Well managers have different qualifications than code monkeys technical engineers.

Even for higher level technical engineers, I'm sure the interview will be more like "what have you done in the past that demonstrates your technical knowledge in this particular domain" rather than "how would you solve this problem?". Presumably, given the fact that they already have achieved a title of principal engineer or technologist or whatever it is, they have already proven the fact that they have basic problem solving skills

[smoky quest]

it's not necessarily easier. It's different since different skills are being assessed

[hardy blade]

Hmm i see... then how come people say that a great engineer translates to a great manager? It's a common career track for people to go from senior/lead engineer to manager to senior manager and so on

[smoky quest]

No one say a great engineer translates to a great manager. People actually say the opposite in that a great engineer does not translate in a great manager as there are different skills at play, like a different job

[hardy blade]

and in my old manager's case, he wasn't very technical or a great engineer, so I'm confused to how he has found success as a manager at the FAANG

[smoky quest]

FAANG cannot hire the top 1% of each role just by the nature of their size. So yeah, the quality will vary and having been at a FAANG is not necessarily a badge meant to say that person is the best

[hardy blade]

That makes sense.

[smoky quest]

when interviewing a company, you should definitely consider yourself interviewing them as much as they are interviewing you. You are about to invest some years into a company, so you want to make sure you will join an environment and a team you will enjoy working with and in

[hardy blade]

Yeah that's true. What do you recommend to someone who hates what they are doing?

I joined a company expecting to work on X and there was a reorg in the very first month, and now I'm working on Y.

My team is nice but there are too many cooks in the kitchen, its very competitive and it's difficult to learn anything because these guys have been at the company for years, they built the applications

at the same time, i'm afraid of jumping right now because the job is stable

[vapid jay]

hi

can someone help me i get this error in my script :

[hearty island]

YESSS the recruiter responded

no 👻ing here

[smoky quest]

If you plan on staying, then you could try to make it work.
Talk with your manager about your issues and making a plan forward

[sleek egret]

yawns

[hearty island]

yar

[sleek egret]

howdy, slim

[vapid jay]

in this days everyone wants to be a programmer/software engineer/developer.
the demand and the salary wont be decreased in future?

[sleek egret]

if by "everyone" you mean about 1 in 50 people, then sure

[true harness]

is that 1 in 50 number real? that sounds relatively high

[sleek egret]

I was actually curious so I looked it up. in the US, there are around 60k CS (or equiv) graduates each year out of population of apx 4mil each year

assuming that some non-CS grads also look for programming work, the # is probably around 1 in 50, maybe 1 in 40

is that enough to be "everyone"? 🙂

[true harness]

interesting

[spark cobalt]

Wasn't there data on levels or something saying that SWE pay actually did decrease in 2022

Not saying that levels is reliable to make these heavy assessments but it is something

[true harness]

BLS should have that data.. I need to study though lol, can't get sucked too deep now

[sleek egret]

the 2022 data should be available about now (or soon)

[ivory sluice]

yeah the levels.fyi showed a decrease but in total comp iirc

.

[smoky quest]

The market is like a pie. There may be more slices but the pie keeps growing.

[ivory sluice]

lol that's a wording I've not heard before

usually the pie analogy describes a zero sum game no?

[smoky quest]

not necessarily. It's also a common analogy for describing equity

[hardy blade]

salary will be decreased across multiple industries due to the exponential growth of AI. In fact, these jobs will be eliminated

In the future, the CEO of a company will be able to create, debug, and add to large enterprise systems with the push of a button. Look at where AutoGPT is at right now, i fear for what it will be capable of in the future

[summer roost]

What job do you have?

[hardy blade]

Software Engineer

[vapid jay]

No CEO will work, they delegate to others 😄

[hardy blade]

True, in this case they will delegate to AI technology, something which they don't have to pay (besides the subscription fees or cost of the tool)

[summer roost]

Interesting. How many years of experience?

[hardy blade]

It's been tough to sleep at night tbh ever since ChatGPT blew up. People don't understand the power of this exponential growth in technology

[hardy blade]

10 years

[summer roost]

Is it exponential? The GPT improvements have been linear, as far as I can tell

[hardy blade]

Look at the vast difference between just GPT 3 and GPT 4. GPT 5 is supposed to completely displace many industries, they plan to release it end of 2023

these are some scary times and I fear for my wife and kids as I am the sole breadwinner.

The problem is that Sam Altman sees this as a game, he already made his money. He doesn't care about those he will single handedly displace

[summer roost]

All I can say is, you're the first professional developer I've talked to who believes that CEOs could use AI to replace software developers. I think there's basically no chance of that happening. Software engineers know that the hard part of writing software is refining and clarifying requirements, and designing systems that perform well and can be extended over time. LLMs haven't proven able to do any of those things

[sleek egret]

OpenAI is not the only firm training GPT LLM's with 100's of bil or trillions of weights. There are a good half dozen more that are nearly as good as OpenAI

[sleek egret]

OpenAI will destroy the low-end outsourced programming industry over the next 5 years. Mark my words.

[summer roost]

Even that seems pretty unlikely to me, but, I guess we'll see.

[sleek egret]

it can write reasonably good code given precise specifications and an understanding of your existing codebase. which is better than 80% of those "programmers" working at those low-end outsource shops

[summer roost]

https://github.com/golergka/advent-of-code-2022-with-chat-gpt shows just how bad it is at solving even small problems given precise specifications

[sleek egret]

those questions are 1000x more complex than what those outsource shops do

they literally churn through bug reports like "field allows entry of non-numbers, fix so that only integers are allowed"

and they will STILL screw it up half the time

[summer roost]

The first one it couldn't solve was a rock paper scissors game. That doesn't sound more complex to me than identifying the correct spot to change in an existing code base to restrict the characters allowed in an input field

[sleek egret]

or the ever popular "numbers in the table are not right aligned, they should be right aligned"

well, believe what you want. all reports say that GPT-4 is a pretty significant improvement

it's not like my opinion on this will change anything 🙂

[near ocean]

Tbf there will be some replacing
Followed by crashing and burning

[hardy blade]

Yeah exactly ^^, it's going to be worse than the Great Depression

i was hoping we wouldn't come to this for another 30 years or so, at least until I retire

[pine sleet]

Im not convinced anything drastic is happening at least for another 50 years

Im not.. all that impressed with the AI either

[hardy blade]

I want you to be right, but many experts are saying otherwise

[sleek egret]

Robin: that's probably because you're comparing against "good" programmers

[pine sleet]

Probably

[hardy blade]

Ray Kurzweil thinks we will reach singularity in 2029

[sleek egret]

now that seems highly unlikely

[pine sleet]

Isn't the singularity supposed to be pretty much doomsday

[hardy blade]

Again, as unlikely as you and I want to think it is, this man is an expert in the field

[sleek egret]

only for poor people

[sleek egret]

there are no "experts in the field" of singularity

[pine sleet]

There are definitely jobs that AI will take over but is that any different from tractors reducing the need for manual labor?

[sleek egret]

well, it's more like bookkeepers being replaced by adding machines. but otherwise, no.

[summer roost]

Well, we'll see. At this point, everything I'm seeing is people exaggerating the ability of current LLMs to solve even simple and well constrained problems, and then predicting they'll be able to solve complex and underspecified problems in the near future. I think skepticism is in order.

[sleek egret]

in the late 1800's, there were millions of book keepers employed by companies. after burroughs introduced the mechanical adding machine, 99% of them lost their jobs

[pine sleet]

Right. Throughout history new and improving technology has put people out of jobs so I don't know if I'd say this is anything new

[hardy blade]

Yes it is different because now you are eliminating millions of jobs across many industries and you aren't replacing them with nearly as many new jobs

[sleek egret]

sure, it's nothing new, even if AI can replace 95% of programmers, the world will go on and most people will barely notice

[vapid jay]

automation leads to shittier jobs.
Automated speach to text -> people get to transcribe from shitty recordings, while program gets the good ones
Automated coding -> people get to debug, instead of writing code

[hardy blade]

The 1% who made their wealth before majority of the jobs were eliminated will barely notice

[sleek egret]

this may be news to you, but the vast majority of people are not employed as programmers

[summer roost]

Again, I'm skeptical, but debugging is the more challenging and interesting job, anyway. 🤷‍♀️