career-advice

[hearty island]

lol i wish my college did that

[true harness]

your school doesn't have career resources?

[hearty island]

it does, but they don’t have employment consultants

at least as far as i know

[true harness]

from what they described, it seems it's just another term for "career counselor"

[smoky quest]

That's your incentive. But that's not the incentive of whomever you would contact for the referral. If they don't know you that well, they have no incentive to risk their reputation

[true harness]

I think they were talking about the second part of godlygeeks message. even if their reputation is poor, it might still be the difference

[smoky quest]

It's like page rank. If their reputation is poor, their recommendation isn't likely to be considered seriously

[true harness]

yeah but unless it hurts your application the candidate is not gonna care

[smoky quest]

A counter point might be the larger companies where you get $$$ if a referral gets hired. And in that case, one may try to refer everyone and anyone. But still the problem of how considered would such referral be

[smoky quest]

It can in some cases.

[true harness]

I've actually wondered about the efficacy of such programs. I understand that the point is they want to reward people for good referrals. but what happens to the referrer if the referred person performs poorly, either during interview or after hiring? how often do programs like this lead to good hires?

[hearty island]

yeah but mine doesn’t really go crazy emailing me w stuff they kinda just let me be alone

[smoky quest]

Everything is tracked in an ATS, including the referrer.

But worse case, the resume gets ignored and they act as an additional sourcer working for free

[hearty island]

maybe they can help me w my resume a bit tho, i think my bullet points need to be more impactful

[true harness]

do you have any idea how successful these things are? just curious lol

[spark cobalt]

I think you're missing context the most. You can't make a great resume without fundamentally understanding what tech is looking for from candidates and understanding the skill level/portfolios/backgrounds of your competition. Resume resources are great, but only great as supplements to your understanding of the industry.

I'm kind of assuming this because this is what I gathered from your counselors resume advice. That is, putting emphasis on low impact sections of resume, not understanding YOE, etc.

[summer roost]

a referral from someone whose reputation in the company isn't above average won't help you pass the screening step, and an employee with an above average reputation will be unlikely to risk it by referring a stranger. Again, the only reason referrals change anything at all from the employer's point of view is that someone in the company is vouching for you. If the employer doesn't have any reason to trust the judgment of the employee that's vouching for you, then the referral won't change the employer's behavior in any way. And if the employer does have a reason to trust the judgment of the employee that's vouching for you, it's because the employee is already trusted to have good judgment - in which case they're unlikely to risk that trust by referring someone that they don't know well.

[buoyant seal]

better full one, you are missing excellent gun shot ^_^ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82utG7Q3G_k

[sleek egret]

my apologies.

[grand nebula]

This is probably more true, but I figure if you'd be the one that generates something and you dislike how it looks, you woulnt be happy either.

[smoky quest]

no specific data points. Haven't seen many pathological referrers

[summer roost]

Blind seems to suggest that some exist, though.

[true harness]

"Blind"?

[summer roost]

https://www.teamblind.com/

a (surprisingly toxic) social media app that consists almost entirely of people anonymously bashing their employers. It does sometimes have interesting gossip, though.

[true harness]

makes sense i guess. most people are pretty interested in not jeopardizing their job reputation i think

[hearty island]

i feel like i have the most success with companies that use Workday

for some reason any company that uses Greenhouse ATS i never hear anything back

idk if greenhouse ats just doesn't like my resume

[summer roost]

this point ignores opportunity cost. You're right that a referral from an employee the employer doesn't trust the judgment of is unlikely to hurt a candidate's chances in most cases, but if it results in no change to their chances at all, then hunting down an employee to beg for a referral was a waste of that candidate's time. The time would have been better spent applying to more jobs, or polishing their resume, or building more projects.

[true harness]

that's true. in order to get a more precise answer, you would need to calculate the expected value of such a referral. though since it's probably pretty low, it's almost certainly not worth it. plus it's already unlikely you find someone willing to refer you anyway

[summer roost]

and there is at least a chance of picking the wrong person, and having them say "yeah, sure" and giving you the referral and then tipping the employer off that this candidate approached them out of the blue and started asking for referrals, and maybe that reflects poorly on the candidate's trustworthiness

[spark cobalt]

Been there done that

[summer roost]

as the employee, or as the candidate?

[spark cobalt]

Employee

The resume looks good, the guy seems definitely qualified, but their approach to get referral should be mentioned

I send it off to HR instead of a hiring manager.

They didn't get hired

[sleek egret]

I don't understand the thinking of asking random strangers for referrals

[spark cobalt]

Desperate people are a turnoff

[hearty island]

lol today someone told me my internship was non-competitive and then begged me if there was a marketing internship at centene

like that is the most incorrect way i've ever seen to ask someone for help

obviously i have no pull as an intern so it's not like i can help anyways

[summer roost]

it's magical thinking from naive job seekers: they've heard that referrals can help you cut through hiring red tape (which is true), but they don't understand why referrals can do that, and so they assume that any referral is equally beneficial

[hearty island]

rejected from oracle again 😦 (project management assistant intern)

oracle be doing me mad dirty lately

[spark cobalt]

A lot of thinking short term benefits without thinking long term. You lose in networking area when people you network with feel like they're getting stiffed

[summer roost]

I don't think they're thinking of it as networking at all - they see referrals as a trick to get their foot in the door, missing that the only reason referrals work is that someone is willing to go to bat for you, and it's really unlikely someone would do that for a stranger.

If an employee says "I've known this guy for 10 years and I can't think of anyone better for this position", that probably holds a lot of water for an employer, and can definitely help you land a job. "I talked to this person for 5 minutes and their resume looks fine" probably won't help the candidate at all, and could hurt them if they rub the employee the wrong way.

cargo cult job applications, basically. They have heard of referrals being useful, so they decide to get referrals, missing that their artificially constructed referrals are not likely to be effective.

[spark cobalt]

Yeah that's a great point

[hearty island]

i signed up for michael page and cyber coders to see if i can get a full time project management role after graduation

on top of how much i already apply

fingers crossed i receive a job offer before i graduate

[sleek egret]

why aren't you crossing your fingers?

[sleek egret]

that all makes sense

I suppose kids who have mostly only experienced the (relatively) uniform and unbiased assessment of school life think that the "real world" is somehow similar. especially if they didn't work jobs as a teen. I suppose the lack of standards (in titles, responsibilities, assessment, etc), seemingly random selection process, somewhat weird/arbitrary questions and HUGE selection of choices (literally thousands of job categories and 10's of millions of companies to choose from) causes a lot of confusion.

[smoky quest]

also lots of hustling and shortcuts cargo cult

[sleek egret]

oh well, live and learn, amirite? 😵‍💫

I guess it must be frustrating to learn that one company cares about grades, another doesn't at all. one company gives a test, another doesn't. one company favors uni X while another hates uni X. etc, etc, etc

like one of my partners hates harvard. he refuses to even consider hiring anyone who went to harvard. it's weird, but I and our other partner just don't care enough to argue with him about it.

[weary birch]

Hey guys what's up

What can you actually work while knowing python language professionally, is it worth it?

[smoky quest]

Python is a general purpose language and as such, is used in many context and situation. So it's good to know it

[smoky quest]

Note that if you are in HS or college age, a CS degree is the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[dreamy spade]

Job postings like this is the reason why people like me get trapped in the "No experience without a job and no job without experience" catch-22.

[spark cobalt]

That's an entry level role?

[dreamy spade]

It just says "Python Developer"

[summer roost]

Sure. Senior engineers are also Python developers.

[spark cobalt]

I found that job posting and it says Lead Python Developer/Senior Python Developer. Not on the same website, but: https://www.salary.com/job/nexgen-iot-solutions/lead-python-developer-senior-python-developer/j202302030127148933977

[dreamy spade]

What's the company name?

[summer roost]

The existence of senior level positions is not the cause of any junior level catch 22.

[dreamy spade]

Dude no..

Can you please stop trying to social engineer?

[spark cobalt]

The job description is word for word, character for character the same.

[spark cobalt]

Respectfully, you're implying something completely factually false.

[summer roost]

What do you mean by "social engineer"?

[dreamy spade]

Using information that was sent to you by something and using that to uncover other information.

[smoky quest]

so fact checking?

[near ocean]

it sounds like you're straight up lying to the channel

[spark cobalt]

He is straight up lying to the channel. The first part of that job description explicitly says:

NexGen IOT Solutions is searching for a Lead Python Developer/Senior Python Developer for a Direct Placement assignment with one of our premier clients in the USA.



Job Title: Lead Python Developer/Senior Python Developer

Experience required- 9 years

Location-USA & Canada (Remote)

[weary birch]

WTF is 9+ years, damn you have to work a whole decade to continue working lmao

[spark cobalt]

Click on it, the first part of the job description literally says Lead Python Developer.

[dreamy spade]

I was reading the fucking job posting title

[spark cobalt]

https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/3549922164 It explicitly says it's a senior developer position.

[summer roost]

you... applied to that job? Even though it asks for 9 years of experience?

[spark cobalt]

It is against your best interests to apply blindly.

[summer roost]

That's not what "social engineering" means, for what it's worth.

In the context of information security, social engineering is the psychological manipulation of people into performing actions or divulging confidential information. A type of confidence trick for the purpose of information gathering, fraud, or system access, it differs from a traditional "con" in that it is often one of many steps in a more complex fraud scheme.[1] It has also been defined as "any act that influences a person to take an action that may or may not be in their best interests."[2]

[near ocean]

posted 48mins ago, 17 applicants
Shut up linkedin

[dreamy spade]

Well what do you call what Wilder is doing then

[near ocean]

what do you call what you're doing

[spark cobalt]

What recursive mentioned earlier was my complete intention.

Also in general, you probably want to be cautious with Staffing/Consulting companies. In particular for this one, the job descriptions containing grammar mistakes everywhere is a red flag.

If you do want staffing/consulting assistance, calling your local recruiting firms will generally be much more fruitful for you.

[summer roost]

"fact checking" seems like a reasonable way to put it. I guess I'd have probably said "double checking", but that's not really qualitatively different.

for what it's worth, if you have 0 YOE and you're applying for jobs that ask for 9 YOE, a) there is a 0% chance that you will get that job, and b) there is a small but nonzero chance that the company will make a note of you wasting their time, which could cost you future opportunities.

[spark cobalt]

A person who's carelessly applying to jobs is a candidate that's not interested at working at that specific company.

[dreamy spade]

Wilder has a history of disclosing my code publicly by reading my project information from one of my old resumes. I did not take that lightly.

I don't know what is his mind thought I would be okay with that.

I did not that appreciate that in the slightest.

[spark cobalt]

Is there a reason you're putting projects on your resume containing code you're not confident in?

[vestal kettle]

I really doubt if they would do b for applying even though you know you are not fit for it.

I thought blacklisting is only for some seriously bad behaviour

[dreamy spade]

This is a loaded question.

[true harness]

it was a public GitHub repository. from your resume, that you sent in a public server, where you had already redacted some info

[summer roost]

ok. I don't know anything about that, but that's clearly not what happened here, in this incident that we are currently talking about. There was nothing inappropriate about someone trying to find the job post that you screenshotted.

[dreamy spade]

I was not trying to disclose the company name.

[summer roost]

there's nothing wrong with disclosing a public job posting on this channel, so long as it's not in the context of advertising that job.

discussing the requirements of a specific public job posting is well within the realm of normal discourse for this channel.

[summer roost]

like I said, small but nonzero. Dealing with job applications is annoying and if you catch someone on a bad day, and dealing with your resume annoys them enough, it's possible.

I agree that it's not super likely, though. But there's no reason to risk it: there's no chance of you getting that job, and there is a small chance of negative consequences.

[dreamy spade]

I asked for a resume review. Not a code review. Big difference.

[vestal kettle]

In some job platforms there is a one-click apply button. Imagine I pressed that wrongly on another job ads then I am permanently blacklisted

[true harness]

you're presenting your project on the resume. the quality of the project matters, especially when we were discussing the projects and how to word bullets in your resume

[dreamy spade]

Ask yourself why would it be okay to disclose somebody's code if they didn't disclose it themselves. It was outright rude and disrespectful.

[summer roost]

that sounds like something you should be reporting to @severe widget, not complaining about in a public channel.

[dreamy spade]

You were online when it happened.

[summer roost]

perhaps. I don't remember it.

[near ocean]

theres no mention of the company name in the entire About container, which you cropped out for some reason

[true harness]

it was a public repo

[dreamy spade]

If I asked for a hamburger, I want the hamburger. I didn't ask for the entire combo. Please don't justify his actions.

[summer roost]

it seems to me that if you asked someone to review your resume, and that resume included non-redacted links that an employer might follow, it's reasonable for someone to give feedback on the linked to stuff as well. It seems like "resume review" ought to include all the steps that an employer looking at your resume would do, and presumably that includes following links, or you wouldn't have included links on your resume in the first place.

But, like I said: I don't remember this incident at all, I'm going just off what you're saying now. If you think someone acted inappropriately on the server, the right thing to do is file a @severe widget report, link to some messages, and let the moderation staff investigate.

[dreamy spade]

it seems to me that if you asked someone to review your resume, and that resume included non-redacted links that an employer might follow, it's reasonable for someone to give feedback on the linked to stuff as well. It seems like "resume review" ought to include all the steps that an employer looking at your resume would do, and presumably that includes following links, or you wouldn't have included links on your resume in the first place.

The links were redacted. What Wilder did was searched on GitHub based off of the project description that was written in my resume and found my code that way.

[true harness]

21 now, heh

[dreamy spade]

☝️ @summer roost

[summer roost]

ah. That does sound less appropriate. In any event, we're not going to discuss it here. If you want to continue this discussion, do it in a @severe widget thread. It's not appropriate for this channel.

[spark cobalt]

That's really fast for senior engineer market lol, typically they can be much more selective.

I wonder if LinkedIn is just inflating those numbers or it's just a lot of job application botting or something of the sort.

[near ocean]

It definitely is

[true harness]

both prob

[near ocean]

the point is to get you hooked on their premium

[smoky quest]

this is more appropriate to send to modmail directly.
Because now, you just gave people another go at finding your repository

[summer roost]

also true, heh

!warn 1022659055862423604 In the future, please avoid digging up and sharing information that users might reasonably want to keep private.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @spark cobalt.

[spark cobalt]

[true harness]

either way, usually i would recommend just applying if you're not sure if you're qualified, but if it's asking for 9 YOE and you have 0 YOE, that's probably just a waste of time, even with the easy apply

[sleek egret]

yawns

[summer roost]

yeah, there's a world of difference between "I meet many of this job ad's requirements" and "I meet none of this job ad's requirements"

[sleek egret]

I should go to the grocery

[sleek egret]

many younger folks find it difficult to believe that companies hire people in their 30's and 40's or even older to develop software

even though people have been developing software for over a half century now

I mean, I guess they understand it intellectually, but they have a difficult time accepting it emotionally. if you know what I mean

so if they see a job posting that says "10+ years of experience" they'll be thinking "that's stupid, how many people have been writing code since they were 12!?!?!?"

[hearty island]

if i’m a junior who will be a senior next semester, should i start applying for full time roles?

[true harness]

usually you apply for full time roles when you're a senior. so in a few months

[hearty island]

ah i see, i started applying now

[sleek egret]

I suggest you don't bother applying for positions that have titles like "senior software engineer" or "software team lead" coming out of school. I mean you can... just don't get your hopes up for a callback 🙂

[hearty island]

i’m not really applying for software, mostly entry level project management roles

[sleek egret]

I see. be aware that there is a bit of bifurcation in what "project management" means in the working world. there are "project managers" who are considered supervisors/bosses of the team and there are "project managers" who are considered coordinators/reporting people.

[hearty island]

hmmm ok

[true harness]

i don't think many companies are going to commit to a start date an entire year in advance ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[sleek egret]

the sort of organizations that require the latter tend to be much much larger

[hearty island]

that’s true

[sleek egret]

that is true, but some firms start sending out offers during the winter

so it's not out of line to start the hunt soon after you enter your senior year

[buoyant seal]

There are two types of managers, those who know software development and those who don't 🙂

[true harness]

those are indeed the two options, yes or no

[hearty island]

but i’ve seen my friend who started hunting her senior year for a full time job and then she doesn’t have one now

[sleek egret]

I thought the joke was "there are also 10 types of people. those who understand binary, and those who don't."

[sleek egret]

yeah, now is not a good time to job hunt, because of the economy, I'm sorry to say. but what can you do?

[hearty island]

so i might as well apply now 🤷

[sleek egret]

indeed, the worst that can happen is you don't get an offer by the summer. which would be the same position as if you don't apply. best case is that you get an offer. which you wouldn't get if you don't apply. so, you know, no downside.

I also got out of school during a bad economy and took a job doing data entry.

it was at a very old large law firm. upside was that I caught a jr partner overbilling a client, reported him, and got his ass fired.

while there, I kept hunting and after around 6 months in, I found a "real job"

man, looking back, I should have moved to california in the 90's rather than NYC

oh well, c'est la vie

[true harness]

why?

[sleek egret]

in NYC, I hopped industries, finance, media, web dev, tech, back to finance. in SV, I could have joined a young tech company and probably made more money

the weather would have also been nicer.

[hearty island]

applied to ethyca but their salary is like $50K-$70K

[spark cobalt]

It's so greeeenn now

[sleek egret]

I don't know what "ethyca" is

[hearty island]

"data privacy software company"

[sleek egret]

don't worry, you guys will have another drought soon enough

[spark cobalt]

[sleek egret]

it's s.cal man. it's been that way for thousands of years

[true harness]

and then another flood, and people will be like "where's the water crisis"

[sleek egret]

there is no water crisis in california. there is a "california farmers want more cheap water" crisis

[spark cobalt]

Still a water crisis no matter what. CA farms are so inefficient water-wise

[spark cobalt]

If they moved north, they could have water for free

[sleek egret]

cali farmers completely emptied the largest freshwater lake west of the mississippi, lake tulare

[sleek egret]

by "north" do you mean the upper part of the central valley north of sacramento?

[summer roost]

this seems well off topic for #career-advice

[sleek egret]

isn't that already mostly farmland?

[hearty island]

ugh i hate it when job apps make me repaste stuff

[true harness]

fr. some forms don't let you autofill. absolutely terrible

[hearty island]

a lot of the fortune best workplaces are tech companies... maybe that changes soon with all the firings

a lot of jobs for project/product management require 5 years of experience 😬

[hearty island]

i'm an idiot, it's because i filtered it for tech

i love oracle cloud application tracking systems, they make it so easy

damn rejected from HP for business analyst intern 😦, same with program management

big tech companies really don't like me

[true harness]

that's not a good attitude

[hearty island]

you're right

i shall apply again 😤

You miss one hundred percent of the shots you don't take

yes

ok i scheduled an appointment with a careers counselor, let's see what she says

[winged cedar]

Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown

[whole stratus]

Looking for experienced python developers that are experienced with scraping and crawling please dm if that sounds like you

[smoky quest]

Hi! This is not a channel for recruiting but to discuss career and the world of work

[summer roost]

recruiting is specifically against the server's rules, in fact.

[hearty island]

damn why are so many project management jobs requiring 5 years of experience right off the bat

[summer roost]

I've never really heard of project management as an entry-level job. I suppose there must be some junior project managers at some companies, but only certain types of companies have dedicated project managers at all, and of those, many wind up promoting technical leaders into project management roles

[hearty island]

yikes, well good thing i am applying now. probably will get a lot of rejections before i start getting interviews. oh well, time for another long cycle

[summer roost]

I'll say that my company has thousands of engineers, and no project managers. I mean, obviously there are people who manage projects, but those people don't have the job title "project manager", and managing projects isn't their whole job.

[white relic]

I applied for a PM role out of college. It was kind of weird

Didn't get it, wasn't really interested when I realized what kind of role it was. But they flew me in and interviewed me and everything

[hearty island]

i applied to goldman sachs and jp morgan chase but i got 👻 'd

i actually like pm a lot

[true harness]

what do you even manage as an intern?

[hearty island]

nothing 😦

that's why i applied for another internship in project management so i could do more at centene

i actually want to ask my boss on Friday and be like. hey, what do you think are the most impactful projects i've worked on during my 7-8 months here?

bc mostly i've worked on tpa licensing in states

which is just talking with a lawyer

[true harness]

woah. they flew you out for an onsite interview? pre-pandemic moment lol

[white relic]

lol yeah it was the before times

[true harness]

nowadays they just give you a teams link 😩

[white relic]

the company I'm at now does on sites. We had 2 today actually

smart guy from Berkeley, but not a CS grad

and an accountant

[spark cobalt]

Like Jira tickets, reporting, dashboards, those kinds of things.

Not my cup of tea but hey, it's a flashy title

[spark cobalt]

@true harness

[hearty island]

diff domain, but yes essentially i also create Smartsheets that track completion of projects

.... i need more specifics on my resume than just saying i "achieve deliverables"... like what deliverables

[spark cobalt]

PMs at my company are kinda both. But we're pretty small teams, so it's really easy to track the progress of things since we call twice a week.

[true harness]

that's why you gotta keep track of things as they happen

[hearty island]

yeah 😔

[spark cobalt]

I can't tell if you're like a genius or this sentence was an accident. Like 3 levels of irony

[hearty island]

i'm going to hunt through my status decks that i sent to my boss tomorrow

and then i can ask like... who does this impact on the bottom line? what value did we create? did the project succeed or fail?

i rememeber there was a project that was called COBRA Registration... it's a form of health insurance to help people keep their health insurance after they lose their job

ok, i'm asking chat-gpt some questions and then i'll bring it to my boss tomorrow

just ask him how to integrate that into bullet points

i got this off chat-gpt, but we did implement an IVR project a while back. the confusing part is how to fit all of this into a resume. this is good to mention in an interview tho.

[hearty island]

started tracking my applications with a spreadsheet

[buoyant seal]

Next step: tracking applications with Trello Kanban board 😁

[hearty island]

"Get Sh*t Done. This is not only a company value but a requirement for the role. You must have an innate willingness to do anything and everything necessary to finish a job."

that doesn't sound like a very professional job description to me... what HR person was tripping when they wrote this

[digital loom]

Hello people, is there a low-pressure, entry-level job that provide contact to professional python development? Payment is not an issue, I will take what is given since I already have a full time job. I just want to polish my Python skills in a professional environment.

[summer roost]

if you adore programming and you're interested in learning, you should absolutely look to enroll in a university for a computer science degree

[pastel thunder]

i f ing hate them, all i dont have is experience that gives salary

when i do business, i will boycott my rejectors from being my customers lmao

[hearty island]

going to bed after a day of job hunting gn

[pastel thunder]

and email them "we recieved overwhelming amount of smart people" so we will have let dumb ones out

[spark cobalt]

Maybe how you portray your experience is the issue

[pastel thunder]

there are no blunders, i am gonna play dirty now, removing the ending date from my bachelor.

[spark cobalt]

Oh you're the dude that's applying like 2 years early

[pastel thunder]

what? early, NO, i apply where experience needed ~= experience from internships

[smoky quest]

so it will be read as if you haven't finished school or dropped out?

[spark cobalt]

^ These employers have a position with a specific date they wanna fill it. You basically just nullify yourself from every position because employers have no clue when you graduate

[pastel thunder]

no start date either + experience above education

[smoky quest]

education matters a lot for early engineers

[spark cobalt]

Don't you graduate in a year lol

[pastel thunder]

in A month

[spark cobalt]

Oh

Have you gotten your resume reviewed?

[pastel thunder]

thats why i cannot bear

[pastel thunder]

you did and said its ok, just some nitpick were it was packed and i can remove one of my project because i have many projects and that one was not very relevant.

[spark cobalt]

👌

[dim sapphire]

Unless you have a scholarship, I recommend taking on a reputable boot camp to polish your skills and start job hunting fast. No need for student debt.

[smoky quest]

Hi!
Self-teaching or bootcamps do not compare with a CS degree. You will be doing life in extreme hardcore level of difficulty with more work for a more difficult career and lower compensation.
A CS degree is the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation. Note also that it is different from high school and a lot more interesting as more grounded in CS

[summer roost]

what country are you in?

look for colleges in your state (in-state tuition is much cheaper). Low income households should qualify for a decent amount of federal student aid. If your grades are good, you'll likely qualify for merit scholarships on top of that.

Don't be afraid of student loans. Federal loans especially have reasonably low interest rates, which someone working as a developer should be able to pay off pretty quickly.

[spark cobalt]

If you're already in your senior year, you need to immediately talk to your counselor in terms of what financial aid is still up that you can take for grabs. Have you applied to college at all?

[summer roost]

hard to say. Before covid I would have said that's not great, but in the covid years, it's possible that many other students are in the exact same boat, and colleges will need to take that into consideration.

[spark cobalt]

Have you applied to colleges?

[summer roost]

but yeah, starting to think about this in April of your senior year is very, very late

[spark cobalt]

The only colleges that'd still be taking in students right now for Fall 2023 is like a local community college. Depending where you are, that can be free for you. (LA for example gives free community college for kids that did school in that area)

[summer roost]

find a bunch of colleges and start applying. Now is late, but waiting any longer will be even later.

[spark cobalt]

^

[summer roost]

https://blog.prepscholar.com/colleges-with-late-application-deadlines-complete-list - there are colleges and universities with April and later deadlines, but you need to get on applying now.

[spark cobalt]

^

Make sure you apply for things like FAFSA, talk to your counselor about it immediately.

This is something they have the most experience with out of like anyone else you could ask

[summer roost]

FAFSA is where the federal student aid would come from.

[spark cobalt]

You can ask to talk to a different counselor. They're there for you, it's literally their job.

There should be other counselors besides the standard class-level counselor

[hexed cosmos]

@mild scaffold Are you already decent at programming ? Have a GitHub repo with projects, freelance referrals etc?

[spark cobalt]

Those sorts of projects, unless you did at incredible depth, would be considered as projects you'd expect a college student to have, not necessarily a working professional.

It'll be incredibly tough to compete with people 4 years older than you, with impressive and wide portfolios, with the college education, spent 4 years in an atmosphere of other bright programmers, etc. (And even these people are struggling to get jobs)

If you wanna share, sure.

[hexed cosmos]

I would learn FastAPI, TypeScript, and React. Get some projects going as well and build up a solid profile on Github. Not recommending you skip out on school but experience is what we look for when hiring. Intel as of this year just adjusted their scouting algorithm to not automatically kill people without a bachelors, but to also take the projects the candidate has been apart of.

[spark cobalt]

It looks like a lot of stuff, but not so deep. Like it has a lot of content, but they're very repetitive and isn't exactly what I'd consider to be an application with depth.

[summer roost]

the point I want to make sure that we've drilled in is that it's not too late to apply to colleges for fall 2023 enrollment, but you have already missed some opportunities, and waiting longer will mean that you miss more.

[hexed cosmos]

@mild scaffold FastAPI will make you a better python programmer, you can render client agents just from the strictly typed python code to TypeScript, and then develop a front-end using React.

[spark cobalt]

Do not only apply for FAFSA. Talk to your counselor and do your own investigation in what else you qualify for.

Employers will not be asking you to build a Discord bot. If you're uncomfortable to move away from the Discord API, you're not prepared to take on a job. You'll be working on applications that have impact in people's professional or personal lives. It goes beyond Discord.

This is what college is good for. To give you general knowledge and time to investigate what the tech scene has to offer. This isn't something we really can answer for you.

[summer roost]

have you taken the SATs? Good SAT scores would go a long way to making up for a poor GPA.

[spark cobalt]

All in all, you'll succeed more by doing something you enjoy doing

[summer roost]

people usually take the SATs in their senior year. You can still register to take them in May. That's super late, but doing it is a better idea than not doing it.

[spark cobalt]

Many community colleges have programs to get you into a state university after 2 years granted you pass various requirements. It should generally be more affordable as well.

[smoky quest]

At your stage:

• Get into a CS college and do whatever you need to make it happen
• Have fun and build stuff. Anything. Don't worry about the quality of the projects or if someone would hire you over it. At this stage, it's more important for you to have fun and discover what's possible and out there. It will help you learn what you like and dislike and also link and connect patterns used throughout CS

[spark cobalt]

You aren't required to commit to anything generally in your first 2 years of college. You can explore both then commit to one.

[smoky quest]

awesome!
Make robots, some websites, some mobile app, some games, movies with blender or what not. You could even make your own programming language or database (definitely on the very advanced side)

[spark cobalt]

You should also investigate student loans. Generally the average CS graduate is able to make 6 figures based on area and based on my anecdata most are able to pay it off very fast.

[hexed cosmos]

I would seriously check out FastAPI when exploring Python and then learn a frontend framework such as React. Even designing simple things like a widget will teach you a ton and be a lot of fun.

Technically React isn't a framework... it's a philosophy- for anyone that just got triggered.

[summer roost]

it is possible to get a job as a software developer without a degree. It's also more difficult than getting one with a degree, and you may find yourself locked out of more interesting jobs if you break into the field without a degree. Generally, breaking in to the field without a degree requires a lot of hustle, self-promotion, and work ethic. Which - and please don't take this the wrong way - you haven't exactly demonstrated by waiting until Spring of your senior year to start thinking about college. The odds of failure for self-taught developers are much higher than for developers with degrees.

[spark cobalt]

Applying to financial aid, applying to college, talking to your counselors of all your available options

[hexed cosmos]

I would kill the last one lol and instead learn SQL and MongoDB (NoSQL)

[spark cobalt]

You'll be exposed to many more concepts that can turn into projects you'd investigate in during college.

[spark cobalt]

Why? Making a game is so much more involved than SQL/NoSQL. Just let him do whatever interests him

[hexed cosmos]

He said making his own programming language

[smoky quest]

it's not a checklist where you have to go through every single one of them. Just explore and see what sticks. That's not even 10% of all the possible suggestions

[spark cobalt]

I don't see why not make his own programming language. That's typically how how one really gets to grasp compiler theory. (I'm planning to do this for my next project after this one )

There's many things to do, just explore your interests so you set yourself up for a career doing technology you love working with.

[smoky quest]

yeah and that's awesome! Continue to stay curious

[hexed cosmos]

I would say 80% of my knowledge comes from rigorous google searches lmao. You have to stay curious even once you graduate to stay relevant in this field.

[spark cobalt]

Ah most of mine come from conferences/talks nowadays.

[smoky quest]

the learning never stop. I still read textbooks, books and paper even after being out of school for so long

[hexed cosmos]

Are you a PyCon guy

[spark cobalt]

No. Mostly just the current project I'm building have very limited books, but very nice conferences that's lasted for like 15+ years

I only ever use Python to automate some stuff at work, I don't really do things with Python at scale

[hexed cosmos]

What sort of projects are you working on?

[spark cobalt]

Project I'm building on the side I'm keeping it hush hush a little, just because of money potential. I do full stack development for work.

[hexed cosmos]

Nice Nice. I write liquidity algorithms for the ticket industry (which i know is getting some heat rn lol) Pretty much we try to artificially reduce ticket prices and keep ticket scalpers away from the major marketplaces. Its a tough gig lmao

[spark cobalt]

Nice

[cosmic dragon]

Because he should focus on things that will increase his value in the job market mainly

And building a programming language shouldn't be on your top 7 priority list

[spark cobalt]

I'd consider it to increase his value a lot... Maybe I'm missing something

[smoky quest]

The projects they are working on now will have nothing to compare with what they will have in 4 years once they graduate.
If they still use projects from 4 years ago to show their value, that denote something very wrong with how they have spent their time

[cosmic dragon]

Oh I thought they were looking for a job, since someone brought up getting a job without a degree

[smoky quest]

As a software engineer, they may have to develop their own DSL or compiler-related technology. That's also why it's good to explore and learn about. Not just for the sake of it but also knowing that it exist

[cosmic dragon]

I just think profiency with sql and nosql databases is easier to market

[spark cobalt]

SQL and NoSQL is easy to pick up, and they'll have deeper knowledge of it having in depth compile theory knowledge than without. Same applies with literally every other programming language. And what recursive said earlier.

[smoky quest]

it's also not an either or situation. They will most likely see both during the course of their education anyway

[spark cobalt]

Yep

[summer roost]

That's exactly why those skills are less valuable. Domain knowledge in specialized domains is where the big bucks are

A working knowledge of commonly used technologies is great for helping to land entry level jobs, but niche skills can make a huge difference to your lifetime earnings

[cosmic dragon]

Ok we are talking about someone who is considering skipping uni and going to straight to work

[summer roost]

I don't believe we are

[cosmic dragon]

My bad then

[weak hedge]

Should I apply for advance computing

[buoyant seal]

sounds like too broad termin that can mean anything ^_^
from using super computers, high load computations, to using cloud computations, to being just good PC user.

[pastel thunder]

can someone please with 4-5 year of ML/Data Science experience share their SKILL SET?? Thank you.

[stray knot]

I wish to present my ideas in some pycon event some day. How do I get started? I don't know how to write proposals, whether I can afford to be able to visit the event in person or not. If anybody has experience with this, please guide me.

[true harness]

it's mostly junior year to very early senior year, since pretty much all apps are due by now

your priority right now is to get into college. everything else can wait

[hearty island]

gonna work on my resume w my boss today, wish me luck!

[hearty island]

it’s actually going well so far, i printed out a list of my most impactful projects and he’s editing them so they’re acceptable for the PMP and so i can integrate them in my resume

[hearty island]

“entry level job” “5 years of experience”

[hearty island]

the good news is my boss is looking through the projects i’ve worked on and he’s mostly agreeing

making some small tweaks here and there, so i can then add these projects to my resume and mention them during my interviews

[craggy wave]

Hey, I'm not available now, but I've given a few talks at PyCons and other conferences. We can have a chat later. It's too late for this year, but EuroPython also has a first-time speaker mentorship program.

[hot cradle]

Where can i learn the Python syntax?

[peak halo]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[hearty island]

guys if my internship starts may 22, should i tell the boss of my current internship that i’ll be leaving soon now?

should i do it now or should i do it in may?

[smoky quest]

can you recap the timelines?

[hearty island]

i’ve had my current internship for around 8 months

project management. i recieved a centene internship around 2-3 months ago

[smoky quest]

when is it scheduled to end?

[hearty island]

that’s the thing, they never provided an end date. instead they gave me a full time offer verbally, but never in writing

[smoky quest]

so they want to hire you?

[hearty island]

i think so

but i already signed the contract for centene

oh shit i got an email from Lumen about project management

damn but it requires 5 years of experience and i don’t have my bachelors degree till another year… how tf did i pass screening for the second round?

[smoky quest]

you are gonna need to clarify the situation with them

[hearty island]

yes

but when?

[chrome summit]

contracts mean nothing

You can always change your mind. It is not uncommon.

You should discuss it sooner than later what the plan is. Personally, I never heard of an internship with no end date.

[hearty island]

ok i’ll see if i can mention it next friday

[smoky quest]

First figure out YOUR plan.
Then are they gonna make you an offer or not?

In general, anything is fair prior to signing. But reneging on something you sign will burn some bridges. So you should sort things out and clean up whatever promises you have made to people

[chrome summit]

I should say "employment offers mean nothing" - both sides can cancel at anytime. Saying contracts too broad.

[hearty island]

but they never gave me a written offer

and centene is a far bigger name than the current company

[smoky quest]

Are you interested in one?

If not, then inform them that your internship will end on day X and move on

[coral vine]

the automated linked in recruiter never contacted me back, weep

anyways, there are 2 universities. one in real life by my house called "cal poly pomona" and one online that i heard of called "western governers university".

is WGU fine or is it not respected at all or something ? o.o I think i can finish in less than a year if i do WGU, but not sure if internships work the same way? cuz wont they see WGU and be like....... oh it's that online university program that everyone cheats on? or something like that ? o.o

[chrome summit]

I never heard of a respected online university

[true harness]

important clarification, online only. there are universities with some online programs, which are good

[chrome summit]

Agreed on clarification - WGU is online in every sense of the word. Like the Phoenix.

[coral vine]

oh i think WGU is real but has an online version. is it respected enough?

[true harness]

i think syrup was looking at WGU. iirc it's not accredited by ABET which is a little 😬

[chrome summit]

If the program is accredited and will the program remain accredited are the biggest issues with fully online

[smoky quest]

What matters is whether or not you get a real BSc. The specific university is unlikely to be known unless you gravitate around academic circles

[chrome summit]

It matters for top companies for initial recruiting if you want to go straight into a Fortune 100. Otherwise, the experience matters more eventually.

[smoky quest]

I haven't even seen it matter in the top companies

[dreamy spade]

Anybody have any advice in getting assessed for Hackerrank exams?

[coral vine]

don't know much about college tbh. but recently finished associates after going in and out of school a few times.

I figure during a recession it'd be a good option to just spend it upskilling till the next year. while im still at parents house. so i could spend the next year applying to jobs orrrrrrrr

i could do a college and end with a bachelors, maybe some internships, and learn more specialized computer science stuff from those ai courses + finish math sequence (i did up to calculus). I notice for things like data science or machine learning which id prolly be interested in the future, i may just plateau if i dont spend time now to really study math stuff which was easy and fun for me back in school :/

plus after this whole job hunt stint, i think i got a way better idea of what software engineering really is. and i didnt take those classes like "distributed systems" etc so im thinking im missing out quite a bit Dx

the WGU also has a "base competency" thing where if you take a quiz and demonstrate you really know the stuff then you can skip those courses. so that is slightly different from a traditional college.

im thinking i will go to one of these colleges for now and suck it up at my parents. also i found a lot of programming meetups around me so i can work on my social skills and network building that way while finishing the degree. i think im lacking more skill than i originally thought :/

[true harness]

all schools are considered equal?

[true harness]

wdym "getting assessed for Hackerrank exams"?

[near ocean]

theyre an online test like leetcode, just practice leetcode type problems

[smoky quest]

In the USA, people wouldn't even know them.
I have worked with brazilians, indians, chinese, people from costa rica, france, germany, argentina, japan, etc. Can you tell me the top 3 schools for each of these countries? Most people cannot. Even restricting that to the USA, that would be too many schools to know.
Furthermore correlation is not causation. I have rejected plenty of stanford/mit/etc. for people coming from no name schools

[dreamy spade]

I have been invited to write hackerrank exams by a company I applied for.

[true harness]

oh. the only real advice other than "know what's on the test" is to get used to the format. do some hackerrank problems

[smoky quest]

To add to that, it doesn't mean a fancy school doesn't have benefits over a no-name one.
But the difference in benefit is way lower than between having a bsc vs not having a bsc

[chrome summit]

Top companies will recruit only from specific schools

[smoky quest]

source?

[chrome summit]

Me - I work for a very large bank and we only hire from select schools for the front office roles

[coral vine]

WGU it is! im not really too specific about what job i want. just want to work as swe. plus i can do a bachelor speed run! my friend says "they look for reasons to stop looking at resume and once they find the reason, then thats when they stop looking altogether" so i guess i should get that bare minimum of a bachelor

[smoky quest]

Oh banks. For top companies, I was more referring to FAANG. Banks aren't known for being at the top nor modern

[true harness]

surely that would depend on the bank

[chrome summit]

Bulge bracket banks have plenty of modern tech

[smoky quest]

Sad to hear some banks aren't leveraging DEI

~~some banks*~~already wrote it as such

[chrome summit]

I've seen many technologists of the top IB firms leave to FAANG and vica-versa

[smoky quest]

But yeah, I wouldn't generalize discrimination from old school companies to all the top companies

[summer roost]

Sounds ripe for arbitrage, if so. Other companies will be stealing talented engineers out from under you.

[chrome summit]

Salaries are competitive though

[smoky quest]

lack of diversity leads to poorer outcomes

[true harness]

only accepting students from top universities does not imply lack of diversity

[summer roost]

Does that mean that you never hire people without degrees?

[chrome summit]

HIGHLY uncommon in banking

They would need a ton of experience and industry respect to overcome that obstacle

[summer roost]

It implies lack of diversity on at least one criterion. There is one dimension on which every new hire has the same background.

[smoky quest]

How so? You end up with the same folks trained the same way by the same teachers about the same things and thinking the same way and tackling problems in the same manner

[summer roost]

I can say that I've worked for large financial firms that don't base hiring decisions on the university the degree came from, so I'd be wary about extrapolating too widely from your experiences

[chrome summit]

The universities they came from only matters for internships and first job hires @summer roost

There are entry level front office jobs that start at $110K base for new hire fresh out of school

[summer roost]

Understood. I've worked at several large finance firms where it doesn't matter even for that.

[chrome summit]

Bulge bracket IB though? (CS too but this assumes merger)

[coral vine]

so basically, i can eat flaming hot cheetos everyday and watch amazon prime videos while finishing my online bachelors program which shall carry equal weight for me like other bachelor people. yay ! since im not particular about what my first swe job will be

[summer roost]

I interviewed for a job at Goldman as a fresh college grad. Didn't wind up getting it, but I wasn't discriminated upon based on my uni (which was small and not terribly well known)

[peak halo]

I think in a lot of cases, the reputation of given university department is based on the impact of their research, rather than the perceived capability of their undergraduates.

[smoky quest]

You can see it as an investment. The more you invest in it, the more it compounds. The less you put in, the less you will get out of it

[chrome summit]

accreditation first then research I would say

[summer roost]

I wound up not getting it based almost exclusively on balking at the suggestion of working 60 hour weeks, I think 😂

[chrome summit]

Like accreditation is the minimum bar then research will determine the tier generally

[peak halo]

do people even take unaccredited universities seriously?

[summer roost]

No

[chrome summit]

NOPE - that is my point

[peak halo]

so, I didn't mention accreditation, because that just goes without saying 😛

[chrome summit]

LOL ok 🙂

[true harness]

important to note that WGU is not accredited by ABET

[peak halo]

at least they told you

[chrome summit]

60 hours is not heavy in banking lol

but the salaries 🙂

[true harness]

I mean, compared to swe, which is usually 40/wk..

[smoky quest]

these are just market level, for NY I assume

[summer roost]

$110k for entry level isn't impressive when you're working 60 hours instead of 40.

[chrome summit]

These are missing two levels - Bottom end of MDs is $500K - avg is 1.2M and high end is 5M+

[chrome summit]

NYC yes

[summer roost]

you're working more than 50% more hours, and getting less than 50% more money.

[chrome summit]

I used to get in the office at 4am and seeing bankers leaving for the night...

[summer roost]

right. So I have no regrets about balking at accepting that WLB

[chrome summit]

but it is more than 60

[summer roost]

right. that's significantly worse

[chrome summit]

Hours go down once you pass VP

[summer roost]

saying that the salary is great when you're working 2 jobs worth of hours is a bit ridiculous

you're getting less than 2 jobs worth of pay.

[hearty island]

meanwhile my mom: try working on wall street!

[chrome summit]

I've been on Wall Street for 15+ years

[summer roost]

FinTech tends to have much better WLB than investment banks, FWIW. And a less bro-y culture.

[coral vine]

so, get WGU online bachelors > work swe job for a year > move to san franscisco > hang at SF coffee shops > work at FAANG? 😄

[true harness]

wgu's cs program isn't accredited by the accreditations that actually matter for CS

this on its own isn't necessarily an issue, but WGU isn't really that well known, so you kinda have to rely on accreditation. some other schools, like iirc Berkeley's cs program, are not accredited by ABET, but that's not really as much of an issue

[summer roost]

looking back, I think never taking a job at an investment bank is among my top 2 or 3 best career decisions. I'm quite certain I would have burned out at 60-80 hours per week, and I'm also pretty confident I'd be paid less than I am now, at least on an hourly basis but possibly even on an absolute basis.

[chrome summit]

Depends on the IT role but the better paid one's are aligned to FO

[summer roost]

how many YOE would you expect an Associate III to have?

[chrome summit]

correction: it means third year associate

[hearty island]

should i talk to my boss today about the internship thing today or next friday 😭

[chrome summit]

but to get to associate it is 2-5 years

I've seen MDs that are 30

[summer roost]

oh, so total YOE for Associate III would be 5-8 then?

[chrome summit]

Minimum is 2-3 years in any title

yeah 5-8

[brave surge]

Do you work in IB in NYC currently?

[chrome summit]

I am in support function and yes in NYC @brave surge

[brave surge]

So those pay scales above are they true ?

[chrome summit]

my hours are not FO hours 🙂

Support is lower than FO from Salary - Analysts are 80-100, Associate are 100-140, VPs are 140-200, DIRS are 200-350, and MDRs are 350+. Bonuses will range on those base salaries.

[brave surge]

What sort of support function, if you don't mind elaborating

[chrome summit]

I will generalize as risk and controls

[brave surge]

Those pays are nearly twice that of London

[smoky quest]

yep. EU/UK pay much lower than the USA, hence a lot of brain drain happening

[brave surge]

I'm not sure ,depends on how much you save also after tax rent etc

[smoky quest]

take home is still way higher

[brave surge]

For sure, I mean NYC real estate also is more expensive

Only say this coz I'm in London and this is what NYC ppl tell me here ,working here

But guess each have their own experiences

[smoky quest]

yeah, things are more expensive. But you can make so much money that you still have plenty more left

[smoky quest]

One way I use to explain the difference to my EU friends is to look at it as a standard deviation. In the EU, the standard deviation is smaller. So even when you are down, you aren't too bad. But also that means you can't go too high comparing to the mean.
In the USA, the standard deviation is greater. So that means that if you are doing well, you are doing very well. But also, if you are in trouble, you can get pretty low

[summer roost]

taxes are higher in the EU and the UK, rents are comparable.

consumer goods are higher in the EU and UK, too.

[chrome summit]

I got very lucky on real estate. I've purchased several homes at bottom and have sold after they appreciated.

[summer roost]

more expensive than UK real estate, or more expensive than London real estate?

NYC rents are quite high, but so are London rents...

[coral vine]

but it is enough for me to meet bare minimum to get my first job as swe. then after i have enough professional experience, the degree no longer matters

[true harness]

i thought you already had 10 years of professional experience. or was that someone else 🤔. was that pcsagan 🤔

[coral vine]

i have 0 yrs prof. exp. also wasnt pcsagan also trying to get their first job too ? o.o

[brave surge]

NYC is more expensive than London real estate

Try NYC madison Square vs Kensington

[chrome summit]

It depends how will you develop your foundations though. If you have other investments such as real estate and avoid debt/pay off house, you became resistant to any blows

I like the Mark Cuban philosophy of living like you are still in college as you grow in your career

[chrome summit]

I would say it depends. Manhattan is more expensive generally but some areas like Forest Hills in Queens are reasonably close and have affordable options.

[brave surge]

How much tax do you pay?

On 100k say , we pay 40p.c

[hearty island]

idk when to tell my boss about the centene internship like wtf am i gonna say
oh yeah i have an internship for a far bigger company, i’ve accepted it for months now but i still want to come back and work here in the fall?

[brave surge]

We do have free health care here so that's there, how much ever chronic condition you get free treatment

[brave surge]

Btw I used to be in mkt risk . Fuckin thankless job for half the pay of the trader lol .. moved to tech now on product , much happier

[summer roost]

https://www.rentdata.org/new-york-ny-hud-metro-fmr-area/2023 says NYC averages around $2500/month rent for a 2 bedroom apartment
https://www.zoopla.co.uk/to-rent/flats/london/kensington/?beds_min=2&price_frequency=per_month&price_max=2000&q=Kensington&results_sort=newest_listings&search_source=to-rent shows 5 2-bedroom flats to rent in Kensington for £2,000 per month or less, and 1234 2-bedroom flats for more than £2,000 per month

I'm pretty sure Kensington is significantly more expensive than NYC

actually, that $2500 is the whole NYC metro area. If you look at just the island of Manhattan, looks like it's an average of $3000/month for a 2br. Zoopla shows 1208 Kensington 2BR flats for £2,500+, vs 29 for <= £2,500

[chrome summit]

Taxes are slightly lower than that but we don't get healthcare included like the UK so it is not apples to apples

I think around 25-28% range plus state tax which is around 6%

[coral vine]

what does chatgpt say to do?

[chrome summit]

London rents include furniture though

(at least from what I've been told)

[summer roost]

true, the NYC ones won't include furniture or any utilities (except possibly water)

[hearty island]

didn’t ask chat gpt

[chrome summit]

NYC will always include water and generally include heating

Pre-war = yes to heating; modern high rise = you likely have to pay; everything else = depends on heating type

[hearty island]

“It is generally best to be honest and upfront with your current internship about your summer plans as soon as possible. This allows your current internship supervisor to plan accordingly and potentially make arrangements for a replacement or adjust their workload distribution.

You can schedule a meeting with your supervisor and let them know that you have been offered a summer internship and that you are excited about the opportunity. Explain that you wanted to inform them as soon as possible so that they could plan accordingly.

It is important to maintain a positive and professional attitude throughout the conversation and express your gratitude for the current internship opportunity. Additionally, you should make sure to clarify your commitment to completing your current internship responsibilities and offer to assist with the transition process to minimize any disruption to the team.

Overall, being honest and transparent is the best approach to take in this situation.” - chat gpt

[vapid jay]

So im 16 right and I want to get a job in programming is there anything I can do to help me out with that like something I can look for that doesn't require me to at least be out of highschool

[chrome summit]

Dual enrollment is a great option (at least for US). You can take actually college classes and get a head start.

@brave surge I should also mention there is a 3% income tax if you live in NYC

I always forgot about it since I am not in NYC directly (although very close)

[brave surge]

Sounds like you end up with similar taxs 40% on 100k

[chrome summit]

(without the healthcare!)

[brave surge]

What does health insurance cost there ?

[summer roost]

since I just did my state and federal taxes, I know that my effective tax rate across state + federal + local was 27% this year, and that my health insurance for me and my partner cost around $26k/year

[chrome summit]

Varies based the employer and your personal salary but I would say from $100-$250 depending on high deductible or low deductible per pay check (so double per month)

[smoky quest]

Degrees matter not because of the piece of paper but because of the learning that come with it(and the network, and etc.). That will set you up for better jobs which then set up you up for more responsibilities and interesting jobs, etc.

[chrome summit]

That amount does not include copays and actual additional costs if a medical service is actually needed

[summer roost]

internet says:

The average premium for single coverage in 2022 is $7,911 per year

[chrome summit]

like each insurance plan will set an out of pocket maximum - it can be as low as 3K or as high as 15-20K (probably could be higher too but that is all I've seen)

[brave surge]

Yeah basically if your admitted, you could get pretty screwed by sounds

[chrome summit]

and then they have in network and out of network with different rules for further complication

Healthcare is a very complicated topic in the US in a nutshell

[brave surge]

Wow .. yeah we argue hear that the free health care is shite and slow but really for the worse off its a great system .. keeps you alive

[chrome summit]

You will be alive here and healthcare is generally fast but the costs is not transparent at all

Healthcare is for the most part privatized although some hospitals are publicly ran

US and UK are very similar outside of healthcare though but generally NYC salaries are higher than London but other markets can be more comparable

(although we do not mix milk into our tea 😉 )

[smoky quest]

aren't milk teas and boba teas popular in NY yet?

[true harness]

mix the tea with the sea water 🦅

[chrome summit]

Those are very common but these are hot teas where they mix

[coral vine]

bird poo, whale sperm, and seaweed

[summer roost]

now that's a party

[true harness]

you can get warm milk tea also. it's nice for cold weather

[chrome summit]

Yeah but those are only in Chinatown rather than the norm

The chain places for boba and milk teas typically do iced (at least that is all I order there)

My 2pm summer delight 🙂

[coral vine]

lessons learned from a failed recession job hunt stint

[spark cobalt]

That sounds really cheap....

[summer roost]

I corrected myself a bit below - that's NYC metro area, but NYC itself is a bit higher at around $3k/month

feel free to find better data if you can, though. I didn't spend a ton of time on that research.

[spark cobalt]

Icic. San Jose is 2400 from one site and 3000 for another site which is why it surprised me (for 2 beds as well)

[chrome summit]

2 bedrooms are a lot more than 2500/month

One Bedrooms in Jersey City, NJ are 2000-3000; Two bedrooms should be around 3000+

Luxury building in Jersey City example

2br from 5K roughly

[summer roost]

luxury is by definition the top of the market, though - it doesn't necessarily tell you much about averages (beyond that the market will support that upper eschelon)

[chrome summit]

I gave non-luxury ranges already though

I am a landlord and my 567 sq ft walkup in a walkup rents for 2100 as an example (1br)

[summer roost]

https://www.rentdata.org/jersey-city-nj-hud-metro-fmr-area/2023 says $2k/month is the fair market rent for a 2BR in Hudson County NJ

dunno. I'm not sure where to pull more authoritative average rent data from.

Fair Market Rent is the 40th-percentile of typical rentals in a given region.
So that's a bit less than median, then

[chrome summit]

I lived in Hudson County for over 10+ years.

If I can find a 2br for 2K rent, I will move there but never seen it in JC/Hoboken/Edgewater/Weehawken/Union City

[summer roost]

hm.

The Fair Market Rent rate is established by the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD). It’s the standard used by the government to calculate payments for programs like the Housing Choice Voucher Program (often called "Section 8") under 24 CFR Part 888. HUD is a federal cabinet department that is responsible for determining payment amounts for housing assistance programs. Fair Market Rent is determined by conducting an annual nationwide survey. FMR prices are gross rent prices, meaning they include utility costs.
I'm not sure we're getting anything more authoritative than that.

Beyond that the cheaper ones are likely in parts of the city you'd prefer not to live in.

[chrome summit]

2 br+ rentals in Hoboken for example

anything below 3K are going to be really small 2 BRs (like 600-800 sq ft)

I don't think the prime areas have section 8 but I am not sure of the criteria for section 8 to pay

@summer roost I think it must be in the bad parts to get to these levels or further perimeter areas. This seems to be section 8 caps.

[fervent grove]

what are good job keywords to filter for data science job offers?

[idle bison]

Can i get a part time job from freecodecamp courses (data science/data analysis)?

[spark cobalt]

fCC courses are very elementary and many include outdated practices. I wouldn't rely on fCC.

[idle bison]

Then could you recommend any other free options? @spark cobalt

I am trying to get a part time job during the summer because I am in an IT school and I would like to get some experience

[fervent grove]

companys care more bout ur projects then any camp courses

start to code for fun and u always have projects to show in an interview

[idle bison]

Yeah but how can I gain the knowledge to make the projects and all the good practices and such?

[fervent grove]

for data science there is kaggle

free datasets to play with, otherwise u can scrape from web, but is against most ToS and therefore u cant get support on that topic here

[idle bison]

ah I see and after what time should I start getting into interviews?

[fervent grove]

depends if its for an intership just go for it

if u want $$$ u gotta offer something

[idle bison]

Because I am coding for like 20-40 mins a every other day or so for fun in python using Codewars

[fervent grove]

so u can write in ur CV u can read and write Python

[true harness]

what country are you in? and you said you're in university for IT?

[fervent grove]

@true harness help me please to find good keywords for job_offers Q_Q 😄

[true harness]

just search the ones you want? doesn't seem that hard

[fervent grove]

duuuhhhh

i want to filter for my preferences and my skills but most time thoose job offerings are basic and copy&paste

[idle bison]

Its something like high school you could say I am from slovakia and its like you do the line of work with maths and stuff right now we are finishing up html and css and then going to JavaScript

[true harness]

hm. i don't know anything about slovakia, sorry

[idle bison]

Yeah its very understandable

If they say you need a University degree in the job offering should you try of just skip it? @true harness @fervent grove

[fervent grove]

depends, if they search for interns u good to go id say

[spark cobalt]

What site are you searching on

[idle bison]

Okay

[fervent grove]

linkedin

[true harness]

i don't know. for internships, most will ask for "degree in progress" or something similar

[fervent grove]

sometimes companys are just happy to get interns to fill the position, atleast form personal experience
Id say go for it more then a rejection will not happen

[spark cobalt]

LinkedIn is pretty notorious for its shitty filters. Ime, SimplyHired had pretty good filters.

[fervent grove]

im filtering that shit myself hahaha

[spark cobalt]

Yeah it's not much of a filter

[idle bison]

Okay because some people say to just ígnore some of the requirements (years of experience, University/College degree) and just go for it but that just seems like a waste of time

[fervent grove]

its a living meme

[true harness]

some things you can ignore if you're close enough, others are hard requirements

[fervent grove]

as mentioned depends on the position u want to apply for, go with entry level skills and at max paid internships

[spark cobalt]

You probably wanna look into your competition. For example: How many people in your desired position have a degree, etc.

[fervent grove]

are thoose international ?

[spark cobalt]

Idk, I searched only for American jobs in there

[idle bison]

Okay last thing really whats more important a degree or experience/projects?

[fervent grove]

position u were hired before

[spark cobalt]

Experience ends up being most important.

Degree/projects go hand in hand. Missing one will seriously put you at a disadvantage.

[idle bison]

That could go under experience

[spark cobalt]

Can consider degree to be the knowledge, and projects to show you can actually apply that knowledge

[idle bison]

Understandable

[fervent grove]

degree is ticket and experience is money and u need money to ride the rollercoaster

[idle bison]

Ok

[fervent grove]

do they offer free apis?

[idle bison]

@fervent grove @spark cobalt @true harness thanks for help and explaining some concepts to me I will probably go and try to get an internship, first I will try on my own and later maybe from family recommendations because 1/2 my family works in some form of it.

[true harness]

you should go straight for the family nepotism

[spark cobalt]

Probably not.

[fervent grove]

i need proxys then Q_Q

[idle bison]

Yeah but I wanna go and try some interviews to see how they go so I dont look like a dumbass

[true harness]

don't take the hard way, lol. ask them for help

[spark cobalt]

Your family members should be able to give you mock interviews and guide you in terms of what you need to know

[fervent grove]

they most likely will not sit by ur side in the interview regardless if recommendation was given

[idle bison]

Yeah I know

[idle bison]

They probably could

[fervent grove]

dont underestimate writing applications, consumes a lot of time so take easy route when given

trust me u dont wanna be like me who needs to build an own job filter algo to save time and get interesting job offers, cause every company which thinks industry 4.0 is sexy offer data science jobs when they in reality search for something completely different

[idle bison]

Ok then I'll go learn some data science/analytics and then ask if I could try to go for the job offerings that they have in that company

[idle bison]

that doesnt seem that good of an option compared to the one I can pick

[fervent grove]

i mean i got a job and they wanna keep me but still, rough times

[idle bison]

You dont enjoy it or whats the problem?

[fervent grove]

its limited and i wanna see which options i got, if i can start as DS i wont need to do a phd beforehand

[idle bison]

Ah I see. I hope you will find the one you are looking for, so thanks for the advice I'll go to continue on my great adventure of late nights with pepsi after school

[fervent grove]

hope u find an interesting first glens

[idle bison]

I propably will I do python and its fun so yeah see ya man

[coral vine]

teen, online bachelors program, internship, recent. thought this was pretty cool ! i applied for the same college online today. i checked out the curriculum and it covers a lot of things i didnt learn in community college. it starts in 2 months! im going to review calculus on khan academy for now and hoping to do something similar. rack up those interview experiences and hopefully get an internship somewhere too. brb need to play vidya games for 3 hrs xD oh also in the post, he mentions a dude on youtube who does a speed run of the cs curriculum, i havent checked that out yet https://www.reddit.com/r/WGU_CompSci/comments/114950g/landed_a_faang_internship/

[spark cobalt]

Someone I know from another server is speedrunning WGU in 1.5 years with no preparation beforehand. Has gotten an internship last year and this year. It's definitely a pretty decent option for remote/affordability +1

There's a person on Youtube that speedran it in 4 months or something? But he knocked out a lot of the credits or something beforehand. I'm assuming a lot of these things are asynchronous

[astral anchor]

good morning

[pastel thunder]

i was reading job description of some previous rejections(didnt even get any rounds or response), i am getting rejected even when i met all requirement except AWS. is it because over qualified people are also applying and making it hard?

or is the HR nutz and dont want company to succeed lmao

[buoyant seal]

AWS is very heavy skill. Very heavy skill encompassing a lot of stuff.

We can say it can probably take half of effort to learn in wherever requirements u have in your positions.
Same amount of effort as the rest of your skills

So, it is very hard to ignore this one:/ and if person is missing it, then person meets less than half requirements.

[hardy stratus]

leetcode DSA seems to the magic wand of a sureshot problem set for selection. how do I get that problem set? what's the link?

[still condor]

Eh, requirements are a bit of a sad joke from what I've seen

I think I'll be productive even in a new programming language in a couple of weeks

And if the employer doesn't want to invest in me learning new stuff, I don't want such a job to be honest

Of course, sometimes you need an expert in a very particular technology.

[buoyant seal]

U still need to prove that investment into you will not be that huge. Easier to find job where investment looks manageable in a reasonable time frame ^_^

[still condor]

Well, right now I'm searching for a job and I think I'm really "fitting" into 0 of them 🙂

[buoyant seal]

I learn Java ^_^. Wishing to try getting Java Backend job one day. Plus participating in modding Minecraft

[still condor]

Yeah I can drop everything, learn Java for 6 months, die from hunger and then get a job with a lower pay 👍

[spark cobalt]

There's very few patterns/paradigms to learn. Nearly all LC problems are some deriviation of these core patterns. The harder it is, generally the more astray it goes from these concepts until you get to the hard end of Hard LC, where some things just come from being exposed to specific algorithms (it ends up being you know it or you don't, which imo is not a good way to measure a candidate.)

[buoyant seal]

Did not u say u can be productive in new language in few weeks?

[spark cobalt]

For entry level developer, you will rarely see Hards unless you're specifically targeting FAANG/Quant roles. FAANG is mostly due to competitiveness, Quant is just the nature of the job requires high level understanding of algorithms.

[still condor]

Yeah, if I don't have another full-time job that's eating all of my soul 🙂

Well I'm exaggerating. Maybe a month

Actually I think I completely lost track of what I'm saying

[buoyant seal]

Hehe, i learn while having full time too. I estimate to learn in three months to some average level of knowing syntax, having learned its average tricks and making hopefully three solid projects to get into my reflexes

At least this amount of time it took me doing golang. Java can probably take longer

[spark cobalt]

Modding Minecraft looks fun, but just the game itself consumes so much time

[still condor]

But yeah, that's what I meant — I will probably learn faster on the job, where I have a real project to work on and good mentors. It's just employers not wanting to spend a bit of time and money on my learning

That's completely understandable but very frustrating

[buoyant seal]

And they should not. It is your responsibility to learn and advance your career ^_^

[still condor]

If I need to learn how to use a new library, would you fire me if I learned it in my work time instead of my free time that's not paid by the employer?

Or like, a new DBMS

[hardy stratus]

I am mapping my training parameters 🙂 Can't comment much today.

[hardy stratus]

Target is to only get any decent product job. So life should be 'easy' 😛

[buoyant seal]

We need to learn all the time during our job work tasks as it is.

You are obligated just knowing basic average stuff at least at the level... You know... Where we can know u will be able filing missing gaps quickly

There is a difference you know between learning small library
And learning how to use Relational Databases and SQL from completely zero. You are expected to learn basic stuff during CS degree at least, and having practiced in some pet project

[spark cobalt]

I just realized I never answered your question.

Grokking is pretty well known for covering these paradigms. EPI is pretty well known for reinforcing them with the problem sets in those books (they help you adopt a good approach to tackling LC stuff).

Typically for FAANG companies, people will post what problem they got and you can see this riddled on the LC website itself, and probably Blind too. I've seen people get the exact problem from those lists, and I've also seen the opposite. I've also seen managers explicitly say if the person just regurgitates the solution they find it hard to assess things like how they solve an unknown problem, communication, etc., and they end up getting denied even if they knew the solution straight away. It's a loaded subject, and honestly it's very "interview to interview" type of thing. After all, the intent of the interview isn't for you to just spit out the answer like it's a textbook. I like to say that technical interview is >50% behavioral as well.

I'd say at minimum, know the concepts to the point you can explain things simply and concisely, you're able to express a very mature workflow, thought process, etc. Knowing how to draw diagrams on whiteboard and expressing that way is a really powerful tool.

[hardy stratus]

u did answer much earlier too. let me go through this reponse and post my reply

[still condor]

I know it's a me problem, but reading your comments makes me want to become a janitor or something

[spark cobalt]

No.

Generally, for junior/mid-level, they won't be able to knock out everything on the job qualification checklist before coming in. But it's definitely assessed whether you have the ability to learn these things quickly based on your prior experience.

[still condor]

A language or a framework is just a tool though, there's no fundamental knowledge a C# programmer or a Python programmer is missing to write Java

[spark cobalt]

They would start you on simple tasks on Java. That's how you'd generally learn. Even if you were an expert at Java, companies will generally start you off small to get used to/learn the codebase.

So right now you see a lot of Golang jobs saying knowing Java is fine.

[buoyant seal]

:/ what can I say except, you are doing great (probably), but u know, career advancements are easier to make when u do self studies

Additional learned stuff helps to answer in time, yes I am familiar with it and receiving approval to complete tasks in alternative technologies, thus grinding even more new experience

[still condor]

Of course I can be expected to have some 'basic knowledge' or a small pet project. But it's completely disconnected from job postings that require years of experience in a specific stack

[buoyant seal]

Actually there is quite big fundamental difference at least between Python and C#. At least for person which developed in Python and interpreted languages only

[still condor]

I assume you mean statically tyoed

[spark cobalt]

I would be shocked if anyone hired someone who only knew Python to do a C# job.

[still condor]

Yeah I have worked with Elm (for a work project), Haskell, Rust and TypeScript (also at work)

Anyway I don't think this discussion can go anywhere, I shouldn't have started it

[hardy stratus]

@spark cobalt
Continuing on DSA prep :

1. Bookset seems to be spot on
2. I had rather been thinking that leetcode list is the magic sauce.
3. the only purpose of a problem solving interview should be to asses the candidate. A set problem set would only undermine the sanctity to the interview. Yet, the norm seems to be absolutely reverse. I agree to the 'interview to interview' point. But I still think that it is like only 25 percent variable factor

As I have been conditined already I will have to double check if the interview has such a large variable factor. Regardless of the exaction I look for your replies are certainly much important

[buoyant seal]

Among one of things. It makes also a serious shift in which code architecture is acceptable more often.

Plus... It is quite important for person to know if he likes to use such tool and develop in it.
Who needs worker who does not know very big stuff like another programming language, only to discover that they can't accept paradigms of another language and will hate using it?

May be they like only Clojure and JavaScript, and everything else will be a big No for them.

Motivation matters

I know for sure I hate using C and Haskell. 😛
Also I strongly dislike to use C++ and Assemble

And I am demotivated from the point of career perspectives to use few other languages and tools.

[spark cobalt]

Well, the "norm" is people who understand the concept and was able to solve the problem. It's not normal for someone to bullshit the interview and land the job unless the interviewer is just blatantly neglecting their task.

"Hacking" the system can only get you so far. Or fake it till you make it. Whatever floats your boat

the only purpose of a problem solving interview should be to asses the candidate

They are not only solving your ability to solve the problem. Being a SWE is much more than just coding. Or, at least being a good one...

[hardy stratus]

Agreed. A little more work on my end would make it sorted

[spark cobalt]

If you're fluent in Easy/Mediums, you'll be perfectly fine 🙂

Probably not worth to invest into Hards if the small portion of companies that do Hards is not your primary goal. At that point, enhancing your portfolio would likely yield a higher ROI.

[hardy stratus]

yeah. my aim is only to land something safe and good

but I would want to discuss the philosophy of the interview at some point of time. I know of so many senior folks who crack interviews only on prep basis. Infact there are million dollar coaching which get sort of 100 % placements. For now I will leave the point open ended. In any case our aim is to be a good software developer. Let me focus entirely on that

[spark cobalt]

There's a person named Edbert Chan on YouTube. He does these coaching sessions and posts all of his coaching sessions + resources + everything else. Rn aiming for Staff at Uber. Pretty solid dude. (Not advertising nor saying you should buy his services, but his posted coaching sessions are very nice resource. Also he's not doing coaching for time being...)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eKirumpmwDWTtKCJKn2HuoQ2NavEfR41whmTyaQcio4/edit Here's his guide to the coding interview

[hardy stratus]

vow. I certainly need to go through it. many thanks. btw I am bit sorry for the late reply

[still condor]

this dude legit telling people to take amphetamine before the interview

I am NOT advocating you take performance enhancing drugs, but the closest thing I’ve found is ADHD/ADD medication. If you need a psycho stimulant, take Adderall or Ritalin since it keeps you focused and mellowed out. 2.5mg is sufficient for most people (not the 5mg pills that are usually prescribed). You SHOULDN’T do this if you have not practiced or studied while using it or if you do not have a prescription.

"I'm not advocating... but 😉 here's what you do"

[spark cobalt]

The 10x stack 30 drugs and caffeine overdose

[spark cobalt]

He said right after to not do it if you don't have a prescription. I would assume that he says this because he is dealing with this sort of problem and has ADHD or something similar

[still condor]

yeah don't do drugs kids

[spark cobalt]

This long typing is scaring me

[agile compass]

can anyone dm me or i dm you so you can help with my script im new in python it will be a plessure

[craggy wave]

I wish to present my ideas in some pycon event some day.

That's awesome! And it's a very realistic goal to have as well. Most conferences are very welcoming to first-time speakers, even the big ones. Your proposals may be rejected a few times along the way, but that's happens to every speaker, beginning or otherwise.

How do I get started?

This will sound corny, but the best advice that I can give you is to just start. Start submitting proposals to local conferences, start submitting proposals to local meet-ups, and start submitting proposals to the big conferences. While this probably feels a bit scary—it certainly did to me when I submitted my first proposal—there's really no harm in submitting a proposal, even if you do get rejected. You won't become part of a "submitters of awful proposals" list if someone doesn't like your proposal. It happens, but the truth is that no one will remember your previous proposal when they review another one of your proposals a year later.

If you find the whole thing scary, a good way to get started is by starting small. Look for local meet-ups, give presentations at work (if you're employed), and look for local, smaller conferences.

Conferences like EuroPython also offer mentorship programs where a first-time speaker is matched to an experiences speaker from the community. Alas, this year's program no longer accepts applications, but maybe next year?

I don't know how to write proposals

A good way to learn how to write proposals is by looking at successful ones. Most conferences use the main parts of a proposal (like the abstract and description) as the description of the talk on the website. (Some conferences allow speakers to edit this description after a talk acceptance, but most speakers don't do that.) So, go to conference websites and start reading those proposals.

If you have any demonstrable expertise in a domain, you can also apply to become a reviewer for a conference. You'll definitely develop a feel for a "good proposal" after reviewing 20-30 of them.

Once you start writing proposals, put time and effort into it. There are many "writing methodologies", but what I like to do is to give it time. Write something, think about it, go over it the next day or week, edit it, write some more, delete some more, write some more, and so on. Sometimes I ask a friend or colleague to go over a nearly final version, just to have an independent set of eyes.

Finally, there are some good blog posts on writing conference proposals and talks. Here are a few links we also share in the EuroPython First-Time Speaker Mentorship Programme:

• https://dave.cheney.net/2017/02/12/how-to-write-a-successful-conference-proposal
• https://switowski.com/blog/how-to-make-a-great-conference-talk/
• https://hynek.me/articles/speaking/

whether I can afford to be able to visit the event in person or not

This can be tricky. Traveling to conferences can be expensive, conference tickets can be expensive (speakers don't always get a free ticket!), and accommodation can be expensive. The problem is that most conferences are run as non-profit, volunteer events that have a limited budget.

Luckily, a lot of conferences also have some kind of "financial aid" or "support" program where you can apply for financial assistance. Since speakers obviously make important contributions to the conference, a lot of these support programs give priority to speakers. If you don't make enough money to be able to afford your travel, you have a good chance of getting a grant if you're a speaker.

A lot of employers will also chip in or pay for travel/accommodation/admission if you're a speaker. If you are employed by a company in the industry, it may be worth discussing this with your manager.

[agile compass]

can anyone dm me or i dm you so you can help with my script im new in python it will be a plessure

[near ocean]

No, this is #career-advice , ask for help in #python-discussion

[agile compass]

ok sorry

[prisma hollow]

Why it is hard to get job in USA as an immigrant

Maybe my grammer is weak and that is causing a problem? 😂

[peak halo]

what credentials do you have?

[sand sentinel]

Hi guys!
I'm an intermediate level python programmer
I am in uni. I want to create games using python
Starting with simple ones, where should I start?

[pastel thunder]

i noticed cantidate are asked DSA even for google brain role. Lmao, isnt DSA quite bad to evaluate ML researcher?

[summer roost]

Why would it be?

[peak halo]

@pastel thunder @summer roost everyone with an MSc or PhD in computer science will have taken at least one DSA course, but my company doesn't ask DSA questions for ML research positions. While there are less useful topics one could ask about than DSA in these interviews, I don't think they're a good use of interview time.

But I'm not entirely surprised that Google does; it might be that it's a company-wide things that they ask DSA questions for all positions that involve programming.

[hearty island]

i just did a lumen interview for project management and they made me play games after the interview....

one was memorizing shapes, the other was memorizing number codes

what the fuck does that have to do with project management?

[prisma hollow]

I've completed my bachelors in india, and have done 5 months internship. Maybe thats why I'm struggling to get a job here.

[hearty island]

signed myself up for some temp agencies so they can place me with jobs

[sleek egret]

nothing, it was an IQ test

[hearty island]

dice went crazy on contacting me with machine learning jobs a while back, let's see what they do with pm jobs

my friend actually works for a temp agency called cybercoders

[pastel thunder]

saying curriculum's DSA and google level Leetcode skill has HUGE difference in as understatement.

[summer roost]

what difference is that?

I'd expect someone who got A's in undergrad DSA courses to be able to handle leetcode easies and mediums with no problem, and to be able to find workable strategies for hards, especially with a bit of help like you're likely to get in an interview

[near ocean]

What kind of question do you think google asks for their junior positions then

[summer roost]

I'd assume some mix of leetcode medium and hard

[near ocean]

Im definitely out of practice but it felt like that was around the kind of stuff we did in uni

Im comparing the LC i did and what i remember from uni, i dont work at google lol

[summer roost]

If you ask questions that most good students wouldn't be able to answer, you're selecting for people who've seen the problem (or a similar one) before, or people who are familiar with a particular niche algorithm, rather than for people who've shown an aptitude for learning things

that is, the harder the algorithms questions that you ask are, the less correlation I'd expect between interview performance and job performance

[near ocean]

Surely there must be some correlation between being familiar with odd algos and being a successful, hungry, grindmaxxer who'll probably ace the interview and job

People dont just sit and read/implement less known stuff if they dont enjoy it

[summer roost]

Enjoying reading and implementing less known stuff doesn't necessarily correlate to strong performance in the workplace

I've known plenty of people who will constantly dive deep into topics that interest them, but who struggle to complete assigned work, for instance - they just keep wandering off and tackling tangential problems instead of the one they were told to solve

Google is in the position where they get far more applicants than they have job openings, but not every employee needs to be a genius, and I doubt it would even be beneficial to the company if every employee was a prodigy. Just like every other large business, they need a lot of people coming in to work every day and plugging away on maintenance and and incremental improvements to code other people wrote long ago. I don't think it would be beneficial to them to set the hiring bar so high that people without CS PhDs are unlikely to be able to pass.

in any event: enough people have had Google interviews that it's an easily answerable question. It's quite easy to find examples of questions that people were asked at Google interviews online, so you can do that and judge for yourself if they're exceptionally difficult or not

https://www.glassdoor.com/Interview/Google-Junior-Software-Engineer-Interview-Questions-EI_IE9079.0,6_KO7,31.htm shows examples like:

Write the first n terms of the Fibonacci sequence using any programming language you would like.

Asked me a DFS I used iterative DFS to solve it. They also asked me a Dynamic Programming Question. It was a 1-D DP I coded bottom up solution. Finally they asked me a harder question which was a monotonic stack question.

Given the head of a linked list, remove the nth node from the end of the list and return its head.

Given multiple unsorted lists, how can you quickly merge them?

a. find the longest substring with n different letters
"aababcd", n=3 => "aababc"

b. find number who has a pair in array (even negative number)

[1,2,3,4,5,-5] => return 5

given two binary trees, return true/false if one is a subtree of another.

I don't see anything particularly remarkable in there.

(that last one is interesting, actually - I wonder if that's by-value or by-reference. If they mean "can you reach the root of one tree by visiting the other", that's a pretty easy question, but if they mean "can you identify whether one tree has a subtree whose values match those in the other tree", a nice solution isn't occurring to me...)

[true harness]

there's a trivial linear time solution. just traverse over the nodes in one tree until you find the root of the other. if you don't, try traversing the other one

[summer roost]

that's true if you can check for reference equality on the subtree's root - that's what I meant. If you can't, and you need to compare the subtrees by value, it's much trickier

[short ridge]

What are the top universities for cs that jobs recruit from?

[ruby chasm]

have a specific country or state in mind?

[short ridge]

I know a lot of companies interview from all universities, and that it is all about how good your "leet-coding" skills are. However I do know that there are some select companies that look for certain universities

[short ridge]

America! Also Canada and maybe UK, but mostly America 🙂

Of course, but I don't want my college limiting me from any opportunities - they may be an extremely small slice of actual jobs, but I still want to pursue them if I decide I want to in college, and not have regrets

[sour tartan]

if you can afford them, and get into Harvard or MIT, go.

[short ridge]

Hmm I do not have the stats for those type of colleges lmao

For example, I heard that UIUC was a good one for cs, that gets you good connections. I was wondering if there were any other such colleges
that aren't ivys or have a sub 5 percent acceptance rate 😭

I understand that. but unfortunately not all companies view that way. Like my friend was telling me about some companies that recruit exclusively from MIT and similar colleges 😭

[sour tartan]

where they recruit is different than where they will hire from.

[summer roost]

recruiting is active, hiring is passive

[short ridge]

You mention "after you have 5 years of work experience", but even in the first year I don't want my "college name" to be holding myself back at all. For example I wouldn't want someone like you to take my college into account if I am a newly graduate

[summer roost]

what if two companies hire exclusively from non-overlapping sets of universities?

[short ridge]

Well we can treat it like a mathematics game.
We rank the universities based on which ones have the highest number of companies that actively and intensely recruit from them. Of course, there are other factors (like how hard each company is), and then you get yourself a nice fun mathematics game

[true harness]

but would it have been easier with one?

[short ridge]

And that's awesome!
If I could get into my dream company without a bachelor's degree, I would.
But I don't think I can, unfortunately

[summer roost]

I mean, sure, you could treat it that way. But you could treat every decision you make that way. I don't play a mathematics game when I decide what to have for breakfast.

[short ridge]

Essentially what I am asking is what are some good universities that companies hold in high regard - I know that 5 years later it won't matter, but I want the universities that matter when you just graduate

[short ridge]

Having breakfast is a trivial decision though, they are not the same thing as dedicating 4+ years and a shit ton of money towards college

[summer roost]

you can look at lists of university rankings for that. It's pretty easy to find out what universities are best regarded in a particular field.

[open light]

uk dont care too much what uni u went to

[near ocean]

Thats not true

[open light]

most prestigious unis only do CS

[short ridge]

A lot of people told me that university rankings are useless, hence why I thought to ask real people who actively hire others

[near ocean]

Im not sure what this means

[summer roost]

those people are telling you that the university you go to doesn't matter much, and you're not listening to them. 🙂

[peak halo]

I assume what they mean is "most 'prestigious' (however they define that) universities teach CS, and do not teach SWE, or other similar disciplines."

[open light]

Out of all the universities in my country (Scotland) only the universities that are not University of Edinburgh, Glasgow, St andrews only do theoretical based courses and would much rather hire from unis like abertay who offer practical courses

[short ridge]

They told me that university rankings don't matter, and I listened to them, so I am not taking them into account lol

You mentioned that what university you go to doesn't matter much, but fewwis mentioned that in the first 5 years they do take universities into account, so i'm a bit confused

[ruby chasm]

I look for people who like learning.

[summer roost]

anyway, this is true, but there's so many different factors that it's still pointless to try to min/max your university experience this way, anyway. What you do at uni matters much, much more to your prospects than what uni you go to. I'd highly recommend unis with co-op programs, or ones where the majority of students are able to get internships. Having internships during your undergrad is gonna matter much more than what uni you went to.

[short ridge]

Awesome!
In that case, wouldn't it be wise to go to a university that has a lax workload, that forces you to take the least amount of required classes possible? This way I could work on more projects, and do better on internships, and get better at programming?
For example, I heard Uchicago is a lot of work, in that case, I might as well not apply there?

[ruby chasm]

projects and internships are just part of the education process

[short ridge]

Ah, I have heard greatly about co-op programs!
A lot of people are able to do summer internships on their own. Co-ops also make it so you graduate one year later.
Isn't it better to do summers internships on your own, and get an extra year of full work experience, vs a co-op?

[ruby chasm]

dude, you're trying to optimize your life too much

[summer roost]

that's what I mean about trying to min/max your education. You're suggesting going to a university that expects less of its students in order to free up time for other stuff. That's a tradeoff. You'll get less advantage from your courses, in exchange for possibly getting more advantage from your extracurriculars.

[ruby chasm]

I wish I took a year or two off between college, between HS, between entering the workforce

[short ridge]

Look when it comes to spending 200k+ on 4 years of life, yeah I kinda don't wanna through a dart and choose my college based on that

[open light]

I work whilst studying at uni in industry

[short ridge]

Obviously I don't spend 5 hours minimaxing what breakfast I will eat, or what book I will read

[ruby chasm]

why would you go to the most expensive private college you can find?? you could go to a state school for $60K

[short ridge]

I don't think I will get accepted into my flagship state school lol, at least not 100% sure
Also 200k works to about 50k per year, and then 10-20k of that is for room/food stuff so that works to be 30k per year - which is extremely cheap.
"the most expensive private college you can find" is much much more than 200k

[summer roost]

I went to a co-op university. It did take me 5 years to graduate, but the program included three six-month internships, so I graduated in 5 years with 1.5 years of work experience. Well, more than 1.5 years, actually - I stayed on at several of those jobs part-time during the school year, on top of the 1.5 years of full-time work. Plus I worked over the only summer break my uni had, so 1.75 years of full-time professional work, plus about 6 months of part-time work.

[true harness]

no?

[open light]

If your worried about getting a job i left school went to 1 year of college, I then applied and got accepted to university and landed a cybersec dev job in my 2nd year (part-time and full time in summer) my university is not highly ranked nor do i have any prior exp. My university fees are free

[short ridge]

Yeah of course, 50k per year is a lot
State colleges are also not 60k total
In state tuition for uva is 20k, not including everyting else, which is already 80k+

[summer roost]

it's definitely on the upper end. MIT estimates an annual cost of $82k per year before aid

[short ridge]

"program included three six-month internships, " oh wow
Just curious, did you do that while also doing college studies? Because if I do the math right, that means you spend less time in university than a regular university student, no?

[summer roost]

again, that's the number before any financial aid

[short ridge]

Oh wow, it is a lot more than I thought - 40 thousand per year.
I am confused what you are trying to tell me. I intially said spending 200k+ for 4 years of life, and then you compared that to "the most expensive private college you can find"

[open light]

here is the best uni for computing courses in scotland (not prestigious however look up any grads from here on linkedin) and its not breaking the bank

[summer roost]

no - the university has a quarters system rather than a semester system. The first year has a summer break, no other does. So I had 3+2+2+2+3 quarters of schoolwork, 36 months, and 2+2+2 quarters of mandatory internships, so 18 months.

[short ridge]

yeah colleges abroad aren't as expensive as America's system

[open light]

mine is free cuz im from scotland but international pay them fees

[true harness]

mandatory internship is absolutely based

[short ridge]

Ahhh I see.
3+2+2+2+3 --> 12 quarters --> 3 quarters per year, which is regular for any college
So essentially the difference between co-op and non co-op is that co-op intersperses educaiton and work, while non-co-op just has educaiton (with optional internships), and then full work?

If I am planning to intern all 4 summers in a non co-op, would a co-op still be better?

[summer roost]

I'd think so. It makes it much easier to get internships, thanks to the university's relationship with businesses

[true harness]

your 4th summer is when you've graduated, isn't it?

[summer roost]

yep.

[short ridge]

Ah got it - that would be super helpful lol. Also is there such a thing as "higher quality" internships? Or company's "prestige" doesn't matter

For example, would a co-op be more restrictive if the company you want to work with isn't in their "list"? Or it doesn't matter which company you want to work with, as they do similar work

[short ridge]

Also what would you say were the "top 5" cs co-op programs that you would reccomend?

[summer roost]

so, yeah, 12 quarters is the same total time as 8 semesters, so I spent the normal amount of time in classes, but quarters are shorter than semesters, which means that most courses were taught at a faster clip to avoid needing to spread the material across 2 quarters

[summer roost]

I only know a handful. I'm probably gonna be less useful to you for answering that than google would.

[short ridge]

So that means that in co-op you essentially learn more in university?

[summer roost]

I'd say yes, though other people might disagree.

[short ridge]

got it. And would you think that co-op be detrimental if I ever decide I like researching, and I wanna go to graduate school?

[summer roost]

no. At my school, doing undergraduate research for the school was a relatively common way for people to spend their internships

my first internship was doing research funded by DARPA

[short ridge]

damnnnn

[summer roost]

in any event, co-op school or no, the most important thing for you to take away from this conversation is that how you spend your time at college will have a much, much greater impact on the opportunities you have later in life than the choice of uni will.

[peak halo]

a lot of research is funded by DARPA 😛

[short ridge]

Hmmm any classic beginner mistakes on how not to spend your time in college?

[peak halo]

joining a fraternity/sorority is a great way to waste time and money, and get into unsafe situations.

[summer roost]

don't blow off classes just because they aren't interesting to you, or they seem too easy. They'll move fast, and you can quickly fall behind on a course that you thought you weren't learning anything from

[short ridge]

Any way to wisely use my timer during the summers so what I do during college is more wisely spent? For example I already know how to code, so I will get a "leg up" when I am in college. Any other things you reccomend?

[short ridge]

Oh yeah i'm not interested in those kind of things lmao, unless its like a coders fraternity that would be kinda cool like just do a bunch of hackathons ig

[short ridge]

When I blow off classes in high school, I still manage, so will I be fine? Or, as I assume, college is an entirely different ball game

[peak halo]

that's not really how frats work. there will be programming-related student groups that you can get involved in that are lower-investment than frats.

[short ridge]

Hmm what are yalls thoughts on clubs then? Specifically ones related to my major?

[summer roost]

that's what a lot of people think, which is why they blow of college classes. And then fall behind.

[peak halo]

university courses are only 16 weeks long. if you become complacent, it will probably come back to bite you.

[summer roost]

or 13 weeks at a school with a quarters system instead of semester 😄

[summer roost]

build a broad base. Try lots of different things. Try to learn what you like and what you don't like, and get exposed to more areas.

[true harness]

clubs are alright. your uni will probably have ACM, or something like it

[short ridge]

Oh awesome!

One last question - what are yall thoughts on doing ICPC in college? It sound super fun and I will like to give it a try, but I am not exactly sure the time commitment and whether it "helps" when applying for internships

[true harness]

no harm in trying. unless it takes away time from classes or whatever. doing well is an interesting achievement for the resume, probably

[summer roost]

competitive programming experience definitely can help for landing internships

[true harness]

indeed. in competitive programming you get an algorithmic problem and you need to solve it in a certain time, while caring about performance. which is quite handy for technical interviews

[spark cobalt]

Can help you learn more specific technologies that aren't taught in classes, participate in larger scale projects, grow your network within the school for potentially a startup, etc.

[random sparrow]

After experiencing the chatbot GPT-4 firsthand, I'm amazed by its advanced capabilities, and it's causing me to question the purpose of continuing my Computer Science degree 😔. I worry about the availability of job opportunities in the field of software engineering in the future 😕, leaving me feeling overwhelmed and depressed.

[hearty island]

chat-gpt gets a lot of shit wrong

[spark cobalt]

I mean there'll be more job opportunities if more people get scared of AI hype

[true harness]

it's surprising we don't yet have a pin about chatgpt

[spark cobalt]

It helps the ones who know

[edgy shard]

why would a CS student even ask this question? It's a great tool no doubt, you can take help from it but this kind of fear is insane. There will be many AI tools in the future and they are going to be developed by engineers not bots.

[peak halo]

Recent GPT models are impressive in their ability to write code, but they still aren't capable enough to eliminate whole programmers from any team. I think that in our lifetimes, they will be capable enough to help human developers work more efficiently, which could mean that that marginally fewer developers would be needed (without eliminating the need for developers in general). And while that one consideration would push the demand for developers down, there could just as easily be other forces in that time pushing the demand for developers up.

If you're interested in being a professional developer, I think choosing not to because of GPT is a losing strategy.

For context, I work with large language models professionally.

[coral vine]

We will be woody while chatgpt becomes the new buzz light year

[random sparrow]

Thank you guys

[random sparrow]

Thank you

[coral vine]

Will cyber security professionals get paid the most in the future?

[peak halo]

It's one of the higher paying domains, and I can't think of any reason why that would change in the forseeable future.

[coral vine]

Oh I thought cyber security was paid less than software engineer. If that’s the case, I was wondering if it would end up being a norm that it’s paid more than swe

[peak halo]

AI and cybersec people at my company are paid more than SWEs at the same level.

[coral vine]

Def don’t want to underpay cybersecurity at ai company. Lol imagine, a whole army of machines “malfunctioning”

[random sparrow]

Lol

So pursue cyber security instead of software engineer

[delicate bane]

kat was going to write one but then got busy. had a good write up already in one of the OTs a while back

#ot1-perplexing-regexing message

[coral vine]

Get a head start

[random sparrow]

Ok

[twilit cape]

I just started to learn python is cyber security using python too? thank you

[spark cobalt]

We had a ChatGPT thread, no? Seems like it got deleted.

[vapid jay]

yo

[leaden summit]

I've landed a position as a Junior Dev, should I suggest to the company to make a part-time contract during the probationary period but I still working full time and have my wage split to 2 part, one is by transfering and one in cash so I can reduce the tax I have to pay ?

[buoyant seal]

!rule 5 , no way tax evasion isn't law breaking :/ you should not ask such questions here

[inner wren]

Rules

5. Do not provide or request help on projects that may break laws, breach terms of services, or are malicious or inappropriate.

[true harness]

how is that even going to reduce your taxes anyway

[proud rampart]

https://tenor.com/view/traffic-fbi-open-up-raid-gif-13450966

[spark cobalt]

It's unlikely the company will make an exception to how they do payroll for someone in the bottom half of the corporate chain. It could make you seem more like a problem.

[proud rampart]

It's a good way to get fired too. Pretty sure that all companies are legally required to calculate the tax before it even hits your account. Unless you work for some dodgy man in a van who pays cash in hand you'll always be paying tax.

If what you're actually asking is how to not be taxed twice for having 2 jobs, then you need to declare as self employed and manage your taxes PROPERLY

[spark cobalt]

Instead, you should be investigating how you can save more money and/or investment options and/or side hustles

[buoyant seal]

part of salary is paid in white... filed as your salary, and sent with accounting for income tax substracted from that part
the rest of salary you get in real cash in envelope... and this part is not mentioned from whom you received it ^_^ and that is why it is not taxed

[spark cobalt]

Also part-time contract but working full time is a problem within itself.

[true harness]

why not just get entirely paid in cash then

[proud rampart]

Might also be good to know what country he's from. Different countries have different systems and laws etc

[buoyant seal]

minimal salary gets you benefits of eventually seeing at least some pension, less suspicious, allowing to use benefits of employed worker from government, getting filled your employment history

[true harness]

there is a difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance, also

[spark cobalt]

The issue is he wants to be employed 20 hours a week, work 40 and have the other 20 hours be paid under the table. That's blatantly illegal, not just tax avoidance

[true harness]

yeah, that's how i'm interpreting it. i'm pretty sure that's illegal

[buoyant seal]

yup. it is exactly case of tax evasion (not of tax avoidance)

[spark cobalt]

Evidence of employment like DW said. You'd fail background check if it's 100% under the table. The experience you'd put on resume wouldn't amount to anything

[buoyant seal]

black salary = 100% cash (some are doing that as well, for some jobs)(not legal), gray salary = part in white, part in black under table (not legal), white salary = fully legal and taxed, everything received as in contract

[spark cobalt]

Does the government really crack down more common forms of gray salary though? Like it's very common in restaurants

[true harness]

hopefully not 😳 (this is a joke)

[buoyant seal]

they fight, but you know, hard to come up with solutions what are allowed within other privacy laws and somehow easy to implement and uphold. or even just to write
government laws are like a lot of badly structured papers version controlled without git usage, just with zip archives (or even without zip archives) ^_^ it is a mess, complete mess.

often enough their government solutions... get working in a way completely different from what they imagined. People you know, adjust to every law and abuse them to their own benefit as much as it is legally possible. My origin country many times in a row implemented new solution to fix situation on top of previous solution, only for new solution getting abused again for proffits instead of fixing a problem they were intended to fix.

[spark cobalt]

Well I guess a lot of illegal stuff in my old work places lmao

[leaden summit]

so my suggestion is potential illegal, i see

thanks all for the info tho

[true harness]

if it wasn't, it would just be the default

[near ocean]

Love me some tax evasion questions right before tax year ends

[coral vine]

Tax evasion with a warm glass of milk

[hearty island]

i love how my mom was just like oh yeah lie that you have 5 years of experience

like hahahaha that's an easy way to get blacklisted/screened out

[deft herald]

You wanna reduce your taxes? Go have a kid

[coral vine]

Be the wolf on wall street, sell yourself! - love mom

[hearty island]

i’m meeting a career counselor on tuesday to work on my resume, let’s see what she has to say

[coral vine]

Hopefully, more helpful than chatgpt

[hearty island]

they better be 😤

after you graduate, do you still have access to handshake?

that would make sense to me, since handshake has full time opps

[peak halo]

handshake being the job listing website that partners with universities? I think you'd have access to it indefinitely, but the listings there would become less relevant to you over time.

[hearty island]

yep that handshake. yeah, i see mostly entry level roles there

[lost flint]

Hi all. I have a technical interview coming up for a junior quantitative developer role. For those of you with more knowledge on interviews, what kind of hackerrank level will this be at do you think? It's a financial company in UK. Not top tier. I'm guessing intermediate. But not above.

[hearty island]

"graduate degree" "3-4 years of experience" "48K" ☠️

[sturdy karma]

Hey I am working on a stat arb strategy In the bond market.

Have you had any project experience? If not, check out kaggle competitions a lot of big firms post challenges on kaggle.

https://www.amazon.com/Practical-Guide-Quantitative-Finance-Interviews/dp/1438236662

[hearty island]

lol point72, i applied there so many times and got rejected each and every time

you know you're fucked when you have to put your college as "Other" in a job app

[sturdy karma]

You should try out at the HFT firms, highly competitive and fun....

[lost flint]

Thanks Shah I will check that book out. I bought Elements of Programming Interviews. A dense read!

[sturdy karma]

@lost flint I sent you a DM

[vapid jay]

hello guys i'm making a game and i I can't solve this problem: I create with the code below a sprite named grass image and I duplicate it in different places. however i cant once displayed to make them move pls help me.

[inner wren]

Hey @vapid jay!

You either uploaded a .txt file or entered a message that was too long. Please use our paste bin instead.

[vapid jay]

class Grass( pygame.sprite.Sprite ):
def init( self, image, x, y, rotation=None ):
pygame.sprite.Sprite.init(self)
if ( rotation == None ):
angle = random.randrange( -1, 0 )
self.image = pygame.transform.rotozoom( image, angle, 1 )
self.rect = self.image.get_rect()
self.rect.center = ( x, y )
pygame.init()
window = pygame.display.set_mode((window_WIDHT, window_HEIGHT))
grass_image = pygame.image.load( 'Back 2.png' ).convert_alpha()
all_grass_sprites = pygame.sprite.Group()
for i in range(50):
new_x = random.randrange(window_WIDHT)
new_y = random.randrange( window_HEIGHT )
new_grass = Grass( grass_image, new_x, new_y )
all_grass_sprites.add( new_grass)

[peak halo]

Hello @vapid jay, this is the career discussion channel, so please remove your messages from here and put them in #game-development

[dreamy spade]

A company is giving me a Python exam for my skill assessment. If you were a company, what kind of Python problems and questions would you ask a candidate?

[vapid jay]

sorry i dont see no problem

[peak halo]

What kind of development is this position for?

[dreamy spade]

They never explained in detail in the job description.

[summer roost]

how did they explain it, then?

[true harness]

does the description have any recommended technologies? skills? what did they want you to have? what experience did they ask for?

[summer roost]

Totally generically, I'd expect to be asked to implement some algorithms using Python. I'd expect to be asked questions about best practices (type annotations, linters, PEP 8, etc). I'd expect questions about OOP, questions that check if the candidate is familiar with common Python pitfalls (like mutable default arguments, mutating a list while iterating over it - in fact, I'd expect questions that make sure candidates understand how references and assignment work in Python, in general). I'd expect questions about common standard library modules - things like json and itertools and collections. And I'd expect questions about the algorithmic complexity of operations on the built in container types.

[dreamy spade]

Nope. When I filled out my application, they asked me what programming languages I was familiar with so I checked the boxes of all the programming languages that I was familiar with and now they sent me emails of requesting me to write exams for each language.

[true harness]

there was absolutely nothing in the job description saying what they wanted applicants to have? seems...very strange

[dreamy spade]

They want citizens and to not have a criminal record.

[true harness]

seems like a low bar

i'm having a ~meetup~ with a company to discuss my submission for a takehome. i'm anticipating questions about certain design decisions, but is there anything else i should have prepared? will be a 30 minute meeting

[buoyant seal]

if i was a regular company: you would have leetcode and nothing else ^_^
if you were getting interviewed by me, expect

• free talk about all different aspects of development for your position,
• task about SQL is pretty much certain,
• and task for refactoring simple code

in tasks for refactoring simple code, may be we will write unit tests too 🤔
in task about free talk about everything, i will certainly ask Git CLI commands
also as a fan of static(and gradual) typing, i will be questioning your knowledge about it as well
software development life cycle of course will be questioned

[dreamy spade]

Interesting response! Thanks!

[true harness]

so...you plan to interview for 4 hours?

[buoyant seal]

ergh, i want to manage doing it within 1-2 hours. 2 hours will be only if all previous stuff is passed and there would be clearly seen a point to ask for more

you know, in theory, half of hour will be spent for questioning theory, and half of hour for practice tasks. So i will aim for 1 hour hopefully to complete everything.

[true harness]

there's no way you're fitting all those topics into 30 minutes lol

[buoyant seal]

mind you, it will be a simple program to refactor, it will have less than 50 code lines and will be very primitive one to refactor on a spot
it will require 2 unit tests at best if we will write them too

something like... 1-2 backend url routes, which have all logic dumped to same view handling function, including full email intiialization each time inside of this view

oh, i will certainly use the worst data structures like dictionaries there to transfer data

[true harness]

are you involved with hiring?

[buoyant seal]

ergh, going to be. to be fair i told you combination of different stuff (i liked the most) i had when i was interviewed at different companies + adding some cherries on top

the most I disliked in interviews is having regular Leetcoding tasks, during which they tried to forbid me using IDE and i was even forbid using unit testing! (They told me they need in order to better gather metrics in comparison to other interviews)

and also i did not really liked interviews which were only mercelisly testing the most obscure library syntax and stuff in automated way automated very silly tests
Refactoring and free for all questioning are fun interviews ^_^

[true harness]

that sounds pretty normal. most of the time you're given a specific editor to use, built into the testing website. unit testing is also done through the website, but it's just called "test cases"

[buoyant seal]

it is the most unnatural type of development. Developing without IDE, without tests (remdining you i had that removed too), and even without visual debugger! I was asked during interview specifically debugging through reading code only!!! am i what, compiler?! those types of interviews do not tests skill of developer, they are silly brainless automated tests for generic metrics gathering
They could have selected candidate with random.choice(candidates), pretty much very similar would have been output (well i guess not that similar, but u get the point of how irrelevant those were questions to real job tasks)

[true harness]

i don't really want to argue about dsa interviews, it's been beaten to death in this channel already.

aside from that, being able to evaluate code without actually running it is incredibly important for a developer

[buoyant seal]

how so ^_^. Find me the case when it has the point of being compiler in 2023 year for code longer than one function.
test driven development and using visual debug is for the win. And relying on static typeness of code to work correctly
Write code, test it, confirm everything is all right, continue. If something is wrong, walk with visual debugger through the test run (or write test first then write code, whatever)

[true harness]

i'm having a ~meetup~ with a company to discuss my submission for a takehome. i'm anticipating questions about certain design decisions, but is there anything else i should have prepared? will be a 30 minute meeting

[buoyant seal]

i guess it depends on your task. Too many posibilities what can be discussed about it. you haven't told us what u were doing there after all.
Besides that in interviews i often got questions about GILL btw, and what is difference between threading/multiprocessing/concurrency, which one to apply when (recommending chapter about it in book Python Expert Programming 4th edition)

[summer roost]

they might find bugs and ask you to talk about those. They'll almost certainly ask about other alternative approaches you considered but didn't take. They might ask things about how you would test it, or how you would deploy it, or how you would debug it if it failed in production...

[buoyant seal]

question can be asked like what can be optimized for performance(or memory) in situations where you chose data structures possible to optimize in terms of performance or memory usage 🤔

[true harness]

it wasn't anything complicated: given a CSV, do some basic stuff with it, and output some output

[summer roost]

I think "unit testing" implies writing the tests, not running their existing tests.

[true harness]

i was under the impression that that was also a common practice. e.g., leetcode lets you create custom test cases

[buoyant seal]

yeah, i was forbidden writing unit tests during my task writing. Existing tests are different story. (which were not present as well)

[summer roost]

I was asked during interview specifically debugging through reading code only!!! am i what, compiler?! those types of interviews do not tests skill of developer
The ability to read code and understand what it will do is definitely a skill that developers need to have.

[coral vine]

To understand the machine, you must become the machine

[summer roost]

They could have selected candidate with random.choice(candidates)
I've heard people argue that all hiring should be done that way. Filter out candidates who are obviously totally unqualified, and then choose randomly from the remainder. If it's not working out after a month, fire them and try again.

[buoyant seal]

ineffcient interview time waste though, debugging program of longer than 100 code lines through reading code only ^_^ inefficient! it would have been quicker covering with tests to finish the program quicker. I dislike inefficiency and this much being taken out of familiar water of my development

[summer roost]

and what is difference between threading/multiprocessing/concurrency, which one to apply when
Ooh, yeah, that's a good one that probably will come up.

[dreamy shadow]

"too much money and too much risk"

[summer roost]

the proponents argue that it doesn't cost more money, or have more risk. I have no particular dog in that race, beyond to note that some companies do basically choose amongst candidates at random.

interviewing is expensive, and spending less time/money on choosing the perfect candidate can easily pay off. And can potentially find gems who are great at the day to day work but don't excel in interview contexts.

[buoyant seal]

u forget about bad choices wasting way more time and money in trial period for 3 months though ^_^

though you are right about people can be fine to do work, while not flaring well in interviews

interviews and work aren't really matching super well in skills

[dreamy shadow]

General process I understand is just:
Filter out on basic requirements, then filter based on "preferred requirements", pick few strong resume, interview, repeat until offer sent.

[true harness]

i think it could make sense for junior positions, but more than that, not sure. juniors aren't going to have impact on that much stuff, so a poor candidate probably isn't going to mess much up

[dreamy shadow]

Also, trial periods waste time since some company can take months for things to even ramp up/new person get used to company technology & terms.

[summer roost]

the people I've heard proposing this suggest 1 month as the trial period, not 3. I'm not sure what you mean by "bad choices" - the new candidates being trialed are not going to be in the position of making decisions. They'll be given assignments that someone else has already made the decisions on, and asked to implement them to spec, and then someone else will review that work and decide if it passes muster or not.

[buoyant seal]

i know right, onboarding to my current company lasted for a year in total ^_^ only after that time i was finally given access to full env for efficient work

[summer roost]

even at the senior level, there's months of ramp-up at a new company.

[true harness]

how does a 1-month trial period work, then? they would need to be egregiously bad to not be perceived as just "ramping up"

[dreamy shadow]

Not very well lol

[buoyant seal]

you know, pretty much most important part is showing you have soft skills to work.
some people shut down in fear / not asking anything / not knowing how to continue at all / and not doing anything to fix it
if you show that you ask questions when you are stuck (you can coherently in detail explain why you are stuck with full information to provide you help... like here in this Discord server ^_^), yet you are capable to do independent work in questions that are obviously can be googled, that is already major plus

it would be nice also eventually seeing.. that your hard skills do not have too many gaps if u are hired for a position above junior though. That they match your resume you claim to have

[summer roost]

Yeah, this only works in the US, where employment is at-will anyway. If after 1 month you feel like they're still ramping up, but doing so at the pace you expect, and after 2 months you feel like they're no longer keeping pace with what you'd expect, you'd fire them then.

[true harness]

seems interesting. would be cool if a company did A/B testing and compared the "normal" hiring vs randomly selected hiring 🤔. 👀 you should do that 👀

[dreamy shadow]

Too bad the answer to "why no one doing X?" is always

[summer roost]

there are companies that do the randomized hiring thing, though.

albeit mostly relatively small companies, from what I know.

[dreamy shadow]

I do have a question on a different topic, wall of text inc.

[Redacted]

[summer roost]

Friend was also told to only communicate via Teams IM & meetings, no email trail
That's... weird. I'd expect messages from Teams to come up in litigation discovery just like email would... If I didn't want records about my conversations on some topic, I wouldn't be committing it to text at all.

Doesn't sound particularly shady to me, though. It sounds like they realize they've in some way fucked up, and are trying to un-fuck things in a way that doesn't increase their legal risks (which includes not admitting "yeah, we fucked up" in records that opposing counsel could demand)

[dreamy shadow]

I think IM depends. My company wipes IMs after X amount of time.

[summer roost]

the only part of that which seems super weird to me is

3. This request is from the director of a different team.
   How does chain-of-command work at this company? Can anyone higher than you on the org chart assign you work? I'd expect assigned tasks to only be able to come from your reporting chain

[dreamy shadow]

Not sure about this one. [Redacted]
Edit: [Redacted]

I think 2 and 4 with the background of #1 is why I think it's like huge red flags. Personally I would have said a hard no on working on this without knowing the rest. But my friend's more agreeable.

[summer roost]

I don't think it's inherently unreasonable for a company (or even a person) to try to remedy a wrong without admitting fault, and that's all this sounds like to me, based on what you've said.

[dreamy shadow]

Hmm, that could be the case. I'm a bit more cynical and I think it doesn't hurt to CYA.

[summer roost]

I dunno. In my mind, there's a massive difference between destroying incriminating evidence versus trying to avoid producing incriminating evidence. I can see how others' morals might lead them to disagree, though.

[dreamy shadow]

I also think it's odd for the director to not let my friend's boss in the loop if it's important task as well.

[dreamy shadow]

[Redacted]

[summer roost]

right. And to me, at least, it sounds like they're trying to do that fix without further incriminating themselves

[dreamy shadow]

Yea, I guess we'll see in the next few weeks.

[ivory cairn]

I just graduated high school and now looking for a college and a job to pursue that hes high demand and
High pay after experience gained

[true harness]

is that a question?

[ivory cairn]

Yeah kind of

[pastel thunder]

#me too

[ivory cairn]

Im just confused which field to go with

Ai eng ,data eng or soft eng