career-advice

[delicate bane]

yeah hopefully. thats partly why i chose to accept this offer

i know my personality and im the type to get bored easily otherwise

[coarse crag]

ooo i see, well if that's the case i think it's a good opportunity to learn something new

"they say you will learn alot by doing things you didn't think was possible"

tbh if i were you i might be too afraid to take it

[delicate bane]

yes but you have to make sure you dont bite off more than you can chew

[coarse crag]

wait are you doing it yourself or with someone else for the entire project?

[delicate bane]

listen. thats still something im figuring out my first week

it all comes down to how well i convince more devs this week

wish me luck 🥴

[coarse crag]

i can only wish the best for you. good luck rex!

[delicate bane]

im cheering for you too, smol. you got your next project yet?

[coarse crag]

still learning basics tbh. started learning django a while ago but stopped. don't expect something great from someone who just started learning how to program like 4-5 months ago 🤣 😭

[delicate bane]

we all have to start somewhere. django is a big undertaking for sure.

[coarse crag]

yeah. kinda trying to focus on theories for now. i created a sudoku solver for codewars today but that's literally something that every CS student can do.

[coarse crag]

when did you start learning how to program?

[delicate bane]

hmm we're gradually moving off topic. lets move to DMs

[dry pumice]

Hey

I need help on something

[regal veldt]

hey joe even Im a beginner but let me see whether I can help

[fervent veldt]

have an issue with the English language some people tell me that my skills are okay and some tell me that I need to practice more , in your opinion how i evaluate my level to be able to apply for jobs abroad

[coarse crag]

maybe you should consider taking TOEFL or IELTS or similar English proficiency certification.

your score defines your proficiency in English. every country/company has a certain standard for it. i am not familiar with international companies' criteria for english proficiency level, but most often in universities or colleges, they require a minimum passing score. (for example harvard require you to have 7.5 or more for IELTS to get in).

as far as my understanding goes, companies might not be as strict as educational institutions regarding english proficiency level, but being able to use decent/advanced level of english definitely helps alot in your career. (it is important especially to avoid miscommunications between coworkers from different backgrounds)

[steel pecan]

Can i be a Software Engineer by learning Python?

[coarse crag]

you can't become a software engineer by knowing only python. you need other skills too. but python is a popular programming language and very much useful for many cases. maybe you can take a look at https://roadmap.sh/ to help you know what kind of knowledge and skills are necessary to become a software engineer.

[steel pecan]

hmm ok thanks

[gritty rivet]

Sort of. You probably need to at least know some basic SQL and/or Bash but you don't need to master another multipurpose language like JS or C to start looking for jobs.

There is a specific Python map on the roadmap site that smol_chicken linked to, but honestly you don't need to master all of that just to find a job as a Python developer. I've been working as a software engineer in pure Python nearly 6mo and I haven't learned all of that stuff yet

To be clear finding SWE jobs with such low barriers isn't easy but they absolutely do exist

[steel pecan]

Ohh ok

[steel pecan]

Thanks for the advices tho, ill keep it and give it a research..

[coarse crag]

really? i thought the python roadmap is like bare minimum skills as a requirement.. 💀

[gritty rivet]

I would consider that a strong foundation that would open up a lot of doors and make it relatively easy to find a job, but not a bare minimum

[coarse crag]

ooo i see i see. thanks 👍

[steel pecan]

hmm

[gusty panther]

Could anyone recommend me some github projects with strong/active communities (don't care if they're popular insofar as they have an active discord). The most important attribute is activity, second-most is willingness to help beginner programmers with the good-first-issue tags.

I found many Rust projects that had a very strong sense of helping with good-first-issues for programmers who basically just finished the Rust book. Extremely active and welcoming, effectively acting as mentors. Looking for something like that with Python projects.

[frosty terrace]

is doing chat interviews a real thing? Even as someone who's job searching, this is weird and unprofessional. The guy had issues going on voice chat and didn't even show his video.

[oak wasp]

I have one year experience in Odoo which is framework of python and my goal is working in America or Europe on remote as a Django developer, will help me this experience in start work in Django? i know that it's different framework but same is Python

[peak halo]

Are you asking how to gain experience with Django? Also, you might want to verify if there are American or EU companies that can hire remote people in Georgia.

[oak wasp]

nono i know Django but i have only working experience on Odoo and does it have some affect?

so if i have 1+ experience in my CV does contact me american human resources?

[peak halo]

I've never heard of Odoo, so I doubt that it's very widely used. But if you want to be a Python web developer, any experience doing web development in python would make it easier to pick up Django.

[oak wasp]

1+ year in odoo not Django

[oak wasp]

i ask u different question, does it have affect my 1+ experience in python while hiring Django developer?

[peak halo]

any experience is better than none. I can't really comment on what employers look for in a prospective django developer, other than "django experience".

the best way to find out is to start applying and see if you get any hits.

[oak wasp]

okay thank you!

[onyx trail]

I am interested in modeling and simulating with python like visualizing data, predicting and also like modeling growth etc how can i specifically learn that and also how much python should i know? i know basic python ans some libraries

[graceful mason]

Maybe try in #data-science-and-ml

[onyx trail]

okk

[vapid jay]

Guys I wanna move into webdev for career prospects. I want to know what out of these three are worth learning, anvil, flask or django? Isnt anvil and flask on the same level. Leaving anvil and django as worth learning?

[peak halo]

I haven't heard of anvil. django and flask are both widely used, but I think flask is losing market share to fastAPI. django is generally unopposed as the top framework for "web dev frameworks that do a lot of the work for you".

source: talking to people on this discord server. I am not a web developer, or anything like unto it.

[vapid jay]

Thanks. Django does sound really nice, the issue is i have final year project coming up so i wanna build it fast and focus on django perhaps later

[delicate bane]

i did a project in anvil before. good for prototypes, getting something up quickly, and understanding web dev better but not very marketable for employers compared to flask/django

still impressed my prof tho

[vapid jay]

Wow thanks. Ill use it to get a final project going but will learn django on the side so ill be marketable for employement as well. Thank you for your input. Was it final year project or something smaller?

[delicate bane]

smaller. it was just a web project for a class.

i think if you do anvil first, it might help you understand some key web concepts before moving onto django. iirc the backend database for anvil is their version of postgres

[vapid jay]

Yes ive noticed. Postges rocks

Thanks for you help

[north venture]

Is there any job position that competitive programming people could be satisfied with, a.k.a a job position that would require a lot more logic and dsa skills than an average one?

[wintry tendon]

https://kanger.dev/mathematics-for-machine-learning-deep-learning-ai/

[digital fjord]

Maybe research positions of various kinds. But the pay can be a tad bad.

[devout berry]

Is there any way to monetize my skills? I'm 14, so i'm legally underaged and i'm not allowed to work here in Germany. I know programming since i'm 7

[balmy spade]

I'm not familiar with German labor laws but by your own statement it would seem there isn't a way for you to "work". What the entails, entirely, is difficult to say.

[devout berry]

I kinda wanna buy a new computer, but fiverr... meh... my dad wasn't too happy with it

[balmy spade]

Earning money through your parents is probably the best way though. I've fairly sure even fiverr has rules on ages for participants.

[devout berry]

I do have an unpaid internship right now, but i'm not able to make any money of of it, however i'm comfortable with building an app or a SaaS, but i don't really have any ideas

[north venture]

How does the payment in industry work? Can someone who is a complete beginner (like has no prior work experience but has the skills cuz they learned them somehow) be paid actually quite a bit solely because of the skills, like someone who is an actual senior?

[smoky quest]

If they are beginners, they can't be senior by definition

You could look at https://dropbox.github.io/dbx-career-framework/overview.html to see the type of expectations placed upon the different levels

[near ocean]

Payment can be very company specific and not always the best measure
A junior at google might be paid more than a senior in some other company

[buoyant seal]

the comment above absolutely truthful. Add here also that payment is kind of highly country specific.
Junior from first world country could be getting paid similar to senior from third world country
the salary difference between junior and senior from third world country can be more than 10x times.

[near ocean]

For example, at my current job I get paid the same as the seniors in my previous job, but they live in wroclaw poland and I live in london

[vapid jay]

is there any good Java Community?

[hallow island]

Hi all! I have my final director interview tomorrow for an early career SWE role (last round before job offer). How are these interviews different from the hiring manager interview? I believe this will pretty much behavioral. Any insight would be appreciated! Thank you 😊😊😊.

[gritty rivet]

You never know because every company and individual interviewer is different, but usually at this stage it's almost a formality and a chance for you to start building a relationship with the individual you're meeting with

[hallow island]

Thank you! That's also what I've read on the company's Glassdoor page. 😊

[summer roost]

Even if someone with zero industry experience was able to somehow develop exactly the same skills as a senior engineer, they'd still command lower pay than the senior engineer does. The amount that a company pays you won't just be based on your technical skills, but also on how much you'd be willing to work for, and on your negotiation skills, and on how easily you could jump ship for a higher paying job at another company. Plus your history of successfully building and delivering things. There are a huge number of factors that play into compensation beyond just technical acumen.

Maybe an analogy: if you started building smartphones in your garage, and they were exactly as good as iphones in every measurable way, you still wouldn't be able to convince people to pay as much for them as Apple charges for an iphone, at least not to start out.

[delicate bane]

dang...be careful out there students/early career folks. the job scammers will go to unfathomable lengths now...
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/shaaahs_jobscam-identitytheft-hiringscam-activity-6965366767665774592-rkvj

like they had multiple interviews and everything. thats wild tbh

[coarse crag]

That's crazy 💀

I wouldn't trust anyone in general especially if they ask me to deliver the phone and devices like that. But is it common for a company to ask you to do that for security measures? (That doesn't sound normal at all but idk) Can't the employees configure their work devices themselves at home?

[lament rock]

Anyone know of some good beginner-friendly github repos? I know to look for good-first-issues, but I mean communities that might be more receptive to new programmers in general.

Content of the project doesn't really matter. Just need to start putting in work to improve my programming skills for jobs.

Since it's a github project/for career advancement, seemed this channel was the best fit

[smoky quest]

No, that's absolutely not normal. Even if taken at face value, that's highly inefficient.
Companies will do setup some software and the laptop for you, but they can buy the laptops themselves and doing so enable them to manage them better as they are more standardized and helps them constitute a stock anyway for loaners and such

[coarse crag]

ooo, yeah that makes much more sense

and also, i don't think a legit company will find a device like apple watch necessary.

[vapid jay]

One guy did this to me. Clearly indian and calls c# c hash. Im in uk btw. Tells me hell call me later. Calls at 5 am. And later in the night that day and never again.

[feral summit]

why is he clearly Indian btw

[vapid jay]

Mixes in indian words doesnt speak normal english. Indians in uk speak fluent most the time.

[devout berry]

Can confirm, almost every indian in tech speaks english fluently (source: i'm indian)

Can you please semd me his number, i'd like to scam bait him

[sudden yacht]

This is not appropriate for this server. Please do not discuss scams or malicious scripts, even in jest.

[devout berry]

Sorry

[delicate bane]

yeah this is like next level social engineering so remember to be careful when applying to jobs

[vapid jay]

Hahaha

Its hard enough dealing with them :)

[sudden delta]

hi hi

[stable hamlet]

hi i have an question , im newbie in python . i created my own space invaders game but i want to do now something what is beyond my understanding . I want to create an python program that wil play my space invaders game and keeps improving own skill

is there some one who can help me

[fiery shell]

Hello, I have been wondering what should I do for my github portoflio? I seek data analysis/data science.
I do have pandas data manipulation with visualisations.
should I stick and do more of them? 🤔 what else can I add?
Like country demography data cleaning + visualisation?

I meant, It's done with things like these:

and I was just wondering what other solutions I might be using within that.

[lucid vapor]

@plush portal Please don't advertise jobs here.

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[fiery shell]

@lucid vapor do we have carieer path hub?

[lucid vapor]

im not sure what you mean by that, sorry

[fiery shell]

Like I'm seeking for an advice, because I'm trying to improve my portfolio of data analytics. And was wondering what should I learn more, or implement.
So far I did some pandas data with visualisations. And was wondering what else... should I do?
Or just stick with data cleaning/visualisation?

mostly pandas with seaborn

Should I also try to get into sql?

Like this roadmap is okay? 🤔
https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/data-science-learning-roadmap/

[peak halo]

you have to ask a question to get help. but this is the career discussion channel.

[vestal hedge]

What are some projects that can stand out on your resume.

[lapis wind]

Honestly imo, anything that isn't the very generic Website + Todo app kind of thing.
Not to dissuade people from doing those sorts of projects, but they are everywhere and all, about the same.

[vestal hedge]

I'm looking for something can help me get hired.

to-do apps or calculators are they enough/ impressive?

[peak halo]

Hired to do what?

[vestal hedge]

Getting hired for Python job ofcourse

[peak halo]

Well, that's the problem. There aren't "python jobs". There are jobs where you do certain kinds of things, which might sometimes or usually be in Python.

[vestal hedge]

Yes I mean the ability to showcase my Python skills, to get hired for back-end for example, where they apply the language.

[peak halo]

If you want to become a back end web developer, and you want to build an open source portfolio, then you should make websites that do interesting things in the back end logic. You might also contribute to open source websites.

[vestal hedge]

Back -end could be a possibility, robotics, automation, AI.

[peak halo]

Contributing to an established project would demonstrate your ability to jump in to a project that you weren't always involved in. Which is presumably what you'd be doing most of the time

[peak halo]

You almost certainly won't get a job doing robotics, automation, or AI without a relevant degree or industry experience.

[vestal hedge]

Where would you begin, what is a good focus for junior level?

[peak halo]

I work in the AI and autonomy department for my company, and we will not hire juniors who don't have a degree. Do you have one, or are you working on one?

[vestal hedge]

No I don't have no degree also no aiming to get one.

[peak halo]

Then I wouldn't aim to work in AI or autonomy

[vestal hedge]

that was just a example

[peak halo]

Web development is more attainable without a degree. But if you're a young person with no professional experience, you should really consider getting one.

[vestal hedge]

So basically web development is a good aim as I can understand.

Next to calculators or to-do list, any projects that can stand out?

[peak halo]

I don't think either of those will help, unless you don't currently know how you would implement them.

I'll let someone with web development experience comment on how you can break into that space.

[fading dirge]

I’m a data scientist, and I don’t even know all of this 🙂 So yes it looks good, but is very comprehensive

I think it also depends what you’ll be working with, you don’t need to know all that info

[vestal hedge]

I don't want to specifically limit myself to one field, but rather focus on an language is see which field I can find some opportunities.

[peak halo]

But you're going to be hired to do work in a specific field, potentially in more than one language. You've got it backwards.

[vestal hedge]

You got to start somewhere

[fading dirge]

Create your own personal portfolio website from scratch, that’s a good project

And maybe add some interactive features using APIs

[peak halo]

I don't think that's relevant to my point. But good luck.

And I don't mean that dismissively. I hope this works out for you. I just have nothing else to add.

[vestal hedge]

I understand, thank you.

[cloud fern]

Hi! Anyone knows which gig platforms are the best to get freelance work for data science/dashboarding/analytics work?

[fading dirge]

What company/industry do you work in?

[graceful mason]

keep in mind python is a minor part of robotics, mostly used for tooling

[peak halo]

research and development. that's all I'll say here.

[fading dirge]

Pretty vague 😅 but I understand

[vestal hedge]

Any company that has good culture, interesting projects.

[delicate bane]

i also understand

im in healthcare tech myself. also in a DS position.

finally transitioned to FT

[delicate bane]

whats your industry bud? if you dont mind sharing.

[ivory sluice]

congrats!

[delicate bane]

thanks! honestly thought they were just leading me on for the longest time

ive heard sometimes companies do that. which is honestly ugh

[fading dirge]

Cybersecurity

[gritty rivet]

Upwork seems to be the most heavily used by far. The competition is intense though

[fluid elm]

I'm in high school right now, thinking to apply for a job as a python developer next year (college student). What's the best approach/way to find jobs?
Also, I will be able to say "I am a Advance developer" next year 😅 , not this year tho.

I am also thinking to learn about web development till next year.

maybe maybe maybe ios app development too in future

[jade rampart]

How do programmers remember all of these libraries? For example now I'm learning PyQt, then I'll learn PyTorch, but there are other libraries I learnt already and I feel like I'll forget things as time passes. How to programmers keep this knowledge, if they do?

[lapis wind]

oh you dont, once you've learnt it once though it's much easier to go back and remind yourself when you next need it

[delicate bane]

oh nice dude! i follow hunter kempf and he does DS + cybersec. i enjoyed my cybersec class myself.

[delicate bane]

100% this.

[fading dirge]

Cool! I don’t know who that is I’ll have to look them up 🙂

I never took any cybersecurity classes or anything like that, I’m a math major

[jade rampart]

ok nice 🙂 ty for the answer

[delicate bane]

hes a DS at Cloudflare. i only know him through the great ken jee's podcast

[fading dirge]

Nice!

[patent grove]

Guys I have a quick question. I am currently a senior at university with around 6 months left, and I got offered a part time role as a data engineer throughout these 6 months at $35/hr. My manager at the company told me that it will be raised/receive full benefits when you graduate but I don't know the exact amount yet for full time. Should I be applying to full time roles or internships at this point?

[lost shale]

Ofc

[gritty rivet]

I'm not sure if I follow what the question is here. If it seems like a good opportunity to you, why not take it?

[delicate bane]

yes, like dowcet asked, what is holding you back from taking it?

[smoky quest]

are you asking if you should transition full time with them or look for another job?

[patent grove]

Yeah I’m wondering if this is an okay typical deal and how much I should negotiate for my upcoming full time offer

[patent grove]

Yeah basically and how much I should negotiate the offer

At the time of the full time I will have about 9 months as a data engineer with the company

I live in the Bay Area and this job is fully remote but they said they will take account that I have a HCOL

[smoky quest]

120k for entry level in the bay area + rsu/options/etc. for something decent
The best argument is another offer in hand though

[patent grove]

I see. Do you happen to know how much I should expect as far a hourly wage increase from $35? Do u think full time would be closer to $45-$50?

[smoky quest]

how many work hours in a year? 120k / 50 weeks / 5 days / 8 hours

[patent grove]

Oh ur saying I should ask for 120k?

[smoky quest]

That's roughly the market for new grads in the bay area

[patent grove]

120/52 weeks right? Haha

[true harness]

you would have days off

[patent grove]

When negotiating, what do u typically say? Like if I say stuff like new grads earn 120k, they would ask for proof right?

[smoky quest]

yeah, because you could also think you are worth 200k, but if no one is willing to pay for it, then that's not your real market value

You could give a hint that based on your research, new entrants in the market in the bay area is X. As such and considering your past contributions to the company, you would expect some numbers in that range.
But then it depends on them, how stingy they are, how aware of the market they are in the bay area and how easy it is for them to find someone else cheaper

Note also there is a FOMO factor at play too. Already having an offer in hand sends a signal you already went through an interview and passed and people don't want to miss out on a great candidate. So having offers on hands does make you a lot more attractive to everyone

[pearl stag]

I've never had a leetcode technical interview.
I watched a few videos, and it seems you get a medium or hard problem, and we'll have 30-45 minutes to solve it?
Is this the norm, or is this for bigger companies?

[covert plaza]

Hey guys, I just finished my first course in Python, and I still have no idea whether I want to go for Machine Learning or if I want to go for Data or Backend Dev or even Fullstack Dev. Do you guys have any Python Intermediate courses that may help finding out which way I like more? Or should I just do the most courses possible and work with whatever pays me more?

[smoky quest]

that's standard

[balmy spade]

Why did you start learning programming?

[old mountain]

So I just started an internship and like I am really struggling and stressed

[covert plaza]

Because I enjoy creating stuff, I enjoy how challenging it is, and love algorithms and solving problems.

But right now, I seem to enjoy both Data and ML.

[old mountain]

I love coding and stuff but it’s such a step up from my skills and I am scared I will just slow them down and I won’t enjoy it. It’s like such a step up that I wouldn’t think its fun. I wanted to learn ML and I thought it would be on like SK learn but it’s all on the terminal. Likr we have a set of exercises but literally its all in the terminal which is something I don’t have experience in

Its a great company and I love what they’re doing but I literally just learned python and the technical interview was python so I did ok

[true harness]

the terminal is very useful, but also pretty simple to learn. if you've learned python, using the terminal won't be difficult at all. just take a step back and make rational decisions

[old mountain]

Its not really the problem

[smoky quest]

Sounds like you are getting overwhelmed by the amount of unknown you are encountering.
That's normal. It also takes time to digest all of it, so give yourself some time and enjoy the ride

[old mountain]

Its all the servers and other softwares they have. They have like a 100 servers. They’re doing ML with like 48mil enteries so they use programs like argo and spark

[smoky quest]

these tools are standard in the industry. That's great you get exposed to them!

[old mountain]

Yeah I just wish I could enjoy like python ML first

Like at that point if ur training and executing models in terminal whay code are u even doing?

[balmy spade]

You can do both. Data anything is quite marketable for business position jobs. "Big Data" is a serious thing in a lot of corps right now. Beyond that, understanding data and algorithms gives you a huge edge in design and implementation. I'd keep focusing on that if it's the why behind your choice of learning programming. ((ML fits in here just about anywhere given how emergent it is))

[halcyon mason]

Help

[covert plaza]

Thanks a lot!

[balmy spade]

This doesn't appear to be on topic for the channel. Maybe you were looking for off-topic channels?

[halcyon mason]

Ye I couldn’t find them

[balmy spade]

!ot

[inner wren]

Off-topic channel: #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

Please read our off-topic etiquette before participating in conversations.

[smoky quest]

What do you mean by that?
Terminals are pretty important in the toolbox of any engineer

[old mountain]

I didn’t really know that haha

[smoky quest]

that's also the point of internships 😉

[balmy spade]

Internships should be for two things, feeling overwhelmed and feeling like you've learned so much. There's no "the intern is holding us back" in a healthy work environment. You're an intern! You are there to learn, not carry the teams' commitments on your back. ((but hey, if you get to help that's awesome too!))

[pearl stag]

Standard in SF or in the industry? Bc I haven't had to do one and most people I meet seem to be clueless about leetcode, like they could probably solve easy problems or write naive solutions that don't meet time complexity constraints, but they don't know ds&a or the tricks/patterns

I'd like to job hop, but I don't know if I should focus on leetcode or learning/honing skills w/ projects

[summer roost]

standard in the industry, at least for backend engineers

[smoky quest]

Standard in the industry.
You may also encounter exercises where they ask you to write code at home as an exercise as well, sometimes as a complement or as an alternative to DSA questions

[summer roost]

though towards the senior level, DS&A questions become much less important. Senior level interviews focus much more on system design than on algorithms.

[fluid elm]

I'm in high school right now, thinking to apply for a job as a python developer next year (college student). What's the best approach/way to find jobs?
Also, I will be able to say "I am a Advance developer" next year 😅 , not this year tho.
I am also thinking to learn about web development till next year.
maybe maybe maybe ios app development too in future

[peak halo]

as a university student, you should really focus on your courses, and then apply for internships that you can do over the summer.

and if you've been practicing programming on your own, even though you've probably made lots of progress relative to when you started, you really aren't an "advanced developer".

[smoky quest]

I would say that system designs and other aspects of the senior roles get added to the mix.
But other seniors I know and myself also still get DSA questions.

[coarse crag]

oooo

[summer roost]

my experience is that a DS&A question or two will be asked at the senior level, but they're no longer the focal point of the interview.

[smoky quest]

That's still a need to prepare for them though

[patent grove]

oh okay thanks for that

do you think my $35/hr can turn into $45-$50/hr in 9 months of experience within the same company? My manager said it'll be a higher overall hourly when I start full time after graduating.

[smoky quest]

I gave you the market rate for a new grad engineer in your location. I will let you do the math.
Whether your specific boss at that specific company from another location is willing to pay your local market rate, is a question I cannot answer. But regardless of their answer you will know how much other companies would hire you for and if it's worth taking that specific offer from that specific company or not 😉

[summer roost]

in the US, very.

I can't speak to how common it is in the UK, but some of the UK regulars should be online in a few hours and able to weigh in on that.

[summer roost]

!rule 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[lapis wind]

very, it's normally tied into your core contract sometimes. But most of the time it's separate.

You can also expect to sign for things like client data protection, etc...

[near remnant]

yeah

[lapis wind]

If the company does anything remotely closed source, gov work, etc... you can expect a NDA.

[near remnant]

but its okay ,its my first junior job and these things were just new to me, basically.

[lapis wind]

yeah, it's not a huge deal, or at least is something to be expected.

Mmm When you're just starting, probably about right. Although im almost 100% certain that you will get more once you've ramped up or go through the initial setup.

😅 I think in general this is our normal meeting structure:

• Daily stand-ups/general check ins (5)
• Bi-weekly sprint demo and retro (1 meeting a week if you split the two weeks)
• Line manager catchup and chat (1)

and then the rest are (more) company or project specific.

[coarse crag]

oooo agile is being used everywhere nowadays..

[lapis wind]

I'd say it's pretty popular now yh

[coarse crag]

yeah

[lapis wind]

another combo i've had on a project is agile-scrum, which was interesting

[coarse crag]

yeah i think agile-scrum is the most popular (at least that's what i take from the internet)

[fluid elm]

okay, thanks for letting me know 🙂

[fluid elm]

I know that...

I know that I am not a advance developer, its a long road but I got this. I believe that one day I will be "advance developer" @peak halo

[graceful mason]

It's often written into your contract but you should expect to sign it for any company that develops and patents closed source stuff

[gritty rivet]

!rules

[inner wren]

Rules

The rules and guidelines that apply to this community can be found on our rules page. We expect all members of the community to have read and understood these.

[gritty rivet]

Nope, see rule #9

[pastel quail]

I believe you! But putting the words "advanced developer" on your resume won't really make you a more attractive job candidate unless you have experience to back it up

[crisp osprey]

We are fellow engineers who know fundamentals of python. We need to earn some pocket money for education. So, where do we need to start to seeking jobs or prove ourselves ? We appreciate any advice that you'll give us.

[gritty rivet]

You could try applying for jobs. Indeed and LinkedIn are the most obvious places to start

Most work is going to be full time. If you need something flexible you can try platforms like Upwork but it's tough to get established

A lot may depend on what country you are in

[robust atlas]

can you actually get a job as a junior software developer? I got an interview for the position but am still a student(computer science) and only have 2 additional certificates in same language so it seems not realistic lol.

*i mean can u get the job if u know only python

[peak halo]

is this for a full time position that you'd start after graduating, or an internship? or is it a part time position that you work as a student?

[robust atlas]

i will do the studies fully online so im planning to take full time position

[peak halo]

even if your courses are online, that doesn't mean that they won't be a large time commitment.

what kinds of jobs are you applying for?

[robust atlas]

i haven't even apply they found me

[gritty rivet]

Yes, difficult but possible. Complementary skills like SQL, bash, etc. can help a lot but there are engineering roles where Python is more or less all you're writing

[robust atlas]

ok so it's not weird... they said interview is up to 30min long. Do they ask you terminology or only about what you know from experience?

[gritty rivet]

They can ask you whatever they want to ask you. If they haven't given much info on what to prepare for, you can ask them

There are loads of resources online for preparing for different kinds of interview questions but you need to look closely at the job description, etc. to get a good idea of what to expect. And interviewing well takes practice, so approach it as a learning experience

[robust atlas]

👍 it's the first interview so i wanted to ask about experiences. Tnx

[gritty rivet]

Good luck :)

[robust atlas]

Thanks!

[brave matrix]

Anybody wants to review my CV

I want to be a Python dev/ Data analyst

[peak halo]

you can post it here with selfdox info removed.

[inner wren]

Hey @brave matrix!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.pdf). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

Hey @brave matrix!

It looks like you tried to attach file type(s) that we do not allow (.md). We currently allow the following file types: .gif, .jpg, .jpeg, .mov, .mp4, .mpg, .png, .mp3, .wav, .ogg, .webm, .webp, .flac, .m4a, .csv, .json.

Feel free to ask in #community-meta if you think this is a mistake.

[brave matrix]

Cant attach PDFs or Markdown ?

I guess i'll post a pic of it

Aight here it is

And this is the github if you guys want to have a look at it;
https://github.com/shner-elmo/

[buoyant glacier]

gm

[brave matrix]

https://tenor.com/view/phonte-good-morning-gif-8886635

[true harness]

the descriptions for some of your projects is super high level.

A Stopwatch that makes timing software easy
says nothing about what you actually did in the project. also, i would probably refrain from citing how many lines of code you wrote, it's pretty irrelevant

also, where's your education?

other minor nitpicks: lots of grammar/style issues, maybe use grammarly? e.g. "DataBase", "Stock-data". "Other projects" probably shouldn't be a bullet point, maybe a smaller heading

[plush spindle]

Hello guys I am relatively new to programming, I know the basics of python and I know how to make graphs in it and made a few projects here and there. I want to learn some useful skills with which I make things that are fun and I can be passionate about but Idk what to learn. Any tips ?

I am going to learn java soon and begin learning Data structures and algos for those leetcode problems with that soon btw for job interviews. ( my college professor recommended)

[brave matrix]

Really appreciate the detailed feedback,
The description is just a short description to give the person reading it an idea of what it was,
but I wanted to be very specific with the amt of lines, and what was the outcome of the project, as I think that will be much appreciated if theyre going to hire me as a Data Analyst.

And for the education I really dont have much to show because I didnt exactly do high school, but I've started learning Programming related stuff on my own from the beginning of 2022.
although I started a Data Science boot camp two months ago, but I'm not sure I want to post it on my CV, since I think they will prefer someone how has more time than me, but if they really want to know its on my LinkedIn.

as for the grammar youre absolutely right, I should use grammarly to doublecheck

[brave matrix]

but I'm more concearned with my knowledge than "traditional" qualifications, do you think I got the skills necessary to start an entry role as either a Python Dev or Data Analyst ?

[gritty rivet]

On the one hand, it doesn't matter what you learn so much that you keep learning. So follow whatever keeps you interested

On the other hand, it's good to look at job listings and have certain kinds of roles in mind that you are studying towards. In addition to Indeed and LinkedIn, check out roadmaps.sh

[balmy mural]

roadmap.sh - although they don't have any paths for data analysts

They do however have a tool based skill tree for python that you might find useful

[gritty rivet]

I think if you make resume improvements like Public Static Void recommended, it's well worth applying. If you don't get any interviews then you can reassess what skills you might need to focus on

[true harness]

sure, but you need to be able to prove that you have the necessary knowledge. if you don't have education or work experience, the only other way to prove that is with your projects. your projects should back up what you put in your "Technical Skills" category, e.g. "Accomplished x% speedup with numpy"

also, i'm assuming you cropped out contact info and stuff?
also, that "Technical Skills" list takes up a huge ton of space, you could probably collapse that down into a few lines and put more stuff

[brave matrix]

do you think I should add that Im in a 6 month long boot camp right now (4 left), or will that decrease my chances of getting hired ?

[brave matrix]

Yes I will tie the projects and skills together, but the only contact info I put there was my LinkedIn and GitHub,
do you think I should add personal info like email and phone number ?

[true harness]

i wouldn't do phone number, but definitely email

[balmy mural]

Think it would depend on the norm of wherever you're applying, but email minimum

[true harness]

low paying is relative, right? full time internships aren't exactly low paying if you consider other job markets. also it's a way to get experience in the industry, which might lead to a junior position

[brave matrix]

noted

[plush spindle]

🙏 🙏 🙏

[brave matrix]

Thanks again for the feedback guys

[near ocean]

What's low paying to you? The average tech super entry no experience job is at around 30k gbp in the UK

Thats already at the national median salary level

[vapid jay]

Is anyone in the data science field?

[near ocean]

Yes theres people here that are data scientists, do you have a question?

[vapid jay]

Yeah I have few ques

[stoic timber]

what are they ?

[vapid jay]

Getting confused with so many tools available

[stoic timber]

Numpy is a great start if you're confused. Most things you learn with Numpy will help you with Pandas and Matplotlib as well

[vapid jay]

I know the basics of these libraries. Should I go deep into them?

[vapid jay]

@stoic timber

[brave matrix]

You should know pandas pretty well and also SQL

then do some data visualiztion like Tableu or BI

[vapid jay]

As a beginner, I should cover all the topics of them

[stoic timber]

just Power BI alone has endless visualizations in the marketplace, so no, not all 🙂 But you should learn how to import a dataset from Excel, transform in Power Query and build basic visualizations with it

[vapid jay]

I saw many devs say R is also required for analysis. Should I cover R also?

[near ocean]

Well what is that really low salary and whats that insane salary
I personally wouldnt work somewhere on the promise that one day they might hire me full time on higher pay

[autumn pumice]

You need to emphasize **what you did **for each project instead of what the project does. Instead of:
stopwatch: software to record time

it should be:
stopwatch: *Used time library to get accurate timing up to the nanosecond

• Used Tkinter in order to build easy to use GUI
  etc.

The more specific you can get the better. Generally you want at least 3 bullet points (or sentences) for each job or in your case project.

Since you dont have any experience or education you need to have the projects at the top. My advice is showcase 3 or 4 projects on your resume with as much high level detail as you can. There's no difference between Projects & other projects. You might as well have a link to your github instead. You can shrink down the technical skills and about me to one sentence. YOu can format it like this at the bottom:

Programming Languages: Python (NumPy, Pandas, SQLite (or whatever else you want to high light), SQL, Bash, Git
Hobbies: Running, Weight lifting, Hiking
Languages: English, Italian, Hebrew

Github is NOT a technical skill but git totally is. You should delete github. You should delete OOP from under python because its not specific to python but computer science in general. Its usually assumed you know these concepts when you interview anyway.

remember that your projects are your only selling point so the bulk of your resume should be about those.

[near remnant]

Yeah I mean, I start anyways, so I will at least have some real experience and just interview after 3-4 months. Nothing really to lose. But I've overthinking everything lately and I feel depressed.

[autumn pumice]

my advice also to get some kind of job/internship experience related to what you want to do.

it'll be a tough sale if you have no education or experience

[lone cradle]

hey, can somebody give me some career suggestions for a CS major?

[autumn pumice]

my advice is try everything and focus on what you like

[near ocean]

You havent mentioned your age or your pay yet
Most people dont take low paying jobs because they have the cushion to afford it, they take them because they cant afford not to
25k is more than 0k
Rent doesnt pay itself

[lone cradle]

i’m trying to see if the suggested careers resonate with me

trying to explore yk

[autumn pumice]

it sounds like you are speculating what you THINK you might like versus ACTUALLY likeing something. You should find a non commital way to try out a bunch of areas of CS and see what you enjoy doing. CS is a very broad field with a lot of niches so theres alot of possibilities

[delicate bane]

pick R or Python. dont try to learn both at once. you can always come back later and learn the other one.

[lone cradle]

what are those areas i should try? i’m asking people to give me good areas to experiment in

[delicate bane]

have you looked at https://roadmap.sh/ yet?

[lone cradle]

no not really

[gritty rivet]

I would absolutely highlight any bootcamp experience

[delicate bane]

take a look. see if any interests you. also know that those roadmaps are not comprehensive.

[vapid jay]

Okay thanks.

[near remnant]

Whats important about my age?

[near ocean]

You mentioned young adults taking low paying jobs

[near remnant]

Im living at home at the moment and plan to move out next year in Spring/Summer with my gf. Even if I wanted to move now, we couldn't because shes doing her PhD now and earns very low salary. I'm in a poor European country. Im 25, just graduated with my master's. But been working all university and saved up some good money, could live on my own for a year without working.

[gritty rivet]

Getting your first job in the industry is usually the toughest. So this is good news! Even just a little experience should help open doors

[near remnant]

Are you happy with where you at now? Did the whole career transition worth it?

[mint shell]

Hi. So I just finished the initiation course of Python in Codecademy (ik, pretty noob still) and was wondering if yall knew good places for practicing and develop my projects, cuz the last thing i want is to have my knowledge forgotten due to lack of practice. I have a macbook air but only worked Python on Codecademy, so if u could redirect me on where to install terminals or programs for it I would also appreciate it. I just wanna know what yall suggest for the aftermath/how to continue practicing and doing python. Or where to further learn code. For reference, I intend to pursue a professional career as Data Analyst or DevOps, and try to develop myself as much as I can in Python. Thanks! (please tag/Dm answer, and sorry for the long text.

[hushed anvil]

I'm in a similar spot experience wise (I think), I did the free portion on DataCamp and found it engaging and helpful and a good intro to data structures and manipulation. I also just purchased "Automate the Boring Stuff with Python Programming" on Udemy.

[mint shell]

Thank you. Yeah, I have my eyes on Udemy and i just found out about roadmaps (https://roadmap.sh/) so i'll be trying that. Thanks mate

[gritty rivet]

Yes, absolutely. I mean a job is a job and it's not heaven, but I'm grateful every day that I invested in my Python skills :)

[near remnant]

Yeah man

[gritty rivet]

The most important thing is to find projects that interest you and keep you engaged to stretch your skills, it almost doesn't matter what they are.

At some point I think I'll probably do this, am working on the AWS certification currently: https://cloudresumechallenge.dev/docs/the-challenge/aws/

[mint shell]

Thank you!

[graceful sonnet]

I know basics of programming, and want to learn Python for data science, can you suggest some resources

[gritty rivet]

DataCamp, DataQuest, Kaggle and of course #data-science-and-ml

[tidal flicker]

what is data science and why is it more paying than software engineering?

[vapid jay]

is it ?

as far as i'm in my learning journey, data science seems more about the ability to study graphs and other similar figures than programming itself

[hushed anvil]

That might be for specific markets, data science doesn't necessarily mean programming or engineering. Data science is developing the story from information given

[autumn pumice]

as the old joke goes, scratch a data scientist and uncover a software developer underneath lol

[hushed anvil]

You can be a data scientist with a crayon and notebook, you'd just be less efficient.

[vapid jay]

pyplot is kinda fun

[leaden reef]

import pyautogui
pyautogui.click()
currentMouseX, currentMouseY = pyautogui.position()
print(currentMouseX, currentMouseY)

[gritty rivet]

I'm pretty sure the pay is similar

Just like SWEs used to be called 'programmers", data scientists used to be called "statisticians". Modern tools, same fundamental purpose

[hushed anvil]

I think you're in the wrong channel friend.

[leaden reef]

yeah friend

[magic wolf]

I'd like some career insight if anyone is willing to give me their two cents on my skillset and or reccs for learning. I am a library scientist for a book distributor, but my role consists of a lot of Python programming (using a package called pymarc). Mostly customer-specific macros that a larger department uses. I program about 45-50% of the day, but it's in this niche pocket of industry. I also have gained familiarity in writing documentation, QA software testing, and Azure. It's been 4.5 years here, I am only 24, and wondering if there is any upward mobility at this company (there isn't really). It's mid-sized, not sure if there are over 1,000 employees or not. I landed this job when I was 20 because of my GPA and previous job experiences. I essentially went into the workforce when I was 15. As of now, my interests and skill crossover is pulling me toward data analytics. I can grasp the concepts, but I've always been terrible at math, so I don't know if I'd be able to compete with collegiate graduates. Most of the programming I do is string manipulation. Also, I do plan on going to college at WGU or something, I guess I am just wondering if anyone knows the job market trajectory for Python analysts VS. developers.

[peak halo]

I can grasp the concepts, but I've always been terrible at math
a lot of people think they're bad at math because the techniques used to teach them sucked and made failure seem more dramatic than it really is. if you're good at programming, you're probably fine at math.

[hushed anvil]

people who want to teach Math are people who math always clicked for them, so they generally aren't the best at teaching it to people it didn't click for.

[magic wolf]

Thanks! Currently going back to the basics with khan academy. I never did stats or advanced trig, so I am still really in recap mode, compared to most. Not worried about the Python part though!

[magic wolf]

facts, supplementing stuff from different YTers has been helpful, when I get stuck.

[hushed anvil]

my wife understands math at a level nothing short of infuriating for me. I generally have to brute force it, or find a layman on youtube or discords to explain it to me.

[peak halo]

by the way, don't eat a calculator to absorb it's power. won't work.

[graceful mason]

nah you just need to swallow a lightbulb too so the solar panel works

[pallid sedge]

heeeeeeeeeeelp!

[peak halo]

huh? why did you respond to a message from months ago?

[whole wasp]

Job offer is 18 but the job posting says 40, what should I negotiate it to

[lofty current]

is that zyzz

[smoky quest]

there is no right or wrong answer.
Negotiate for an offer that is satisfying to you or that you are willing to compromise on

[whole wasp]

It’s the same job with the grammar error that @summer roost pointed out a month ago. I just randomly called them and they gave me the same offer an hour later

[smoky quest]

would they hire you at 40?

[whole wasp]

Doubt it they are prolly gonna say it’s a typo

Reviews on Glassdoor complaint of really low pay so ya

I also got another offer right after an interview today, is that normal? 1 30 minute round and another 30 minute one. Company does have really horrible reviews tho

[smoky quest]

that does seem short and odd

[jade pike]

Would anyone advise where I could find part time remote python work?

Bidding on Upwork feels a bit scammy. Not winning any projects

[sacred shore]

I don't know about upwork, but I did some simple jobs on fiverr, you could try there

it takes few weeks before you can get your first order though, you have to be patient, even on upwork

[open glade]

Hey guys
My college requires me to take a online course (Coursera, Udemy, etc) on a computer science topic for my credits
Do you guys have any recommendations for good python courses?

[jade pike]

It's been 6 months. How long did it take for u to get your first order?

[sacred shore]

my college required me to take some courses too, but they were specific about which ones to take, make sure you have the freedom to choose whatever you want

[jade pike]

Do Data Structure and Algorithms course

[sacred shore]

it took me around a month to get my first order

[jade pike]

Lucky u

I'll try Fiverr. Wish me luck! 🤞

[sacred shore]

good luck!

[tranquil heron]

is python good for game devolopment???

[buoyant seal]

is it good to make GUI / Graphical interface for the game? I think it is not. I could be wrong and people in #game-development would help to answer more precisely. I heard about pygame something existing
web games GUI is made in Javascript
desktop GUI i thought better to make in stuff like C# and similar
android games in some java/kotlyn

python can make you some decent enough server side for online games though. backend. It would be needed for game having its GUI in any way mentioned above.

[near ocean]

This isnt that kind of server my guy, try upwork, fiverr, etc

[glad parrot]

hey all, i just received 3 acceptance offers from 3 computer science bachelor programs in latvia. i wanted to know according to your experiences, which would be the most credible choice that would increase my chances to get a job. of course I am still aware that it depends on skills and what u can do in your cv, but I believe what I study for 4 years do make an impact on my decisions. anyone who is studying comp sci in latvia, please dm me to help me out.

https://stud.rtu.lv/rtu/spr_export/prog_pdf_en.43

https://bachelor.rbs.lv/bitl-program/

https://www.lu.lv/gribustudet/study/bachelors-study-programmes/bachelor-computer/programme-courses/https://stud.rtu.lv/rtu/spr_export/prog_pdf_en.43

[gritty rivet]

I would 1) Look for objective rankings, for example https://edurank.org/cs/lv/

2. Go on LinkedIn, search for alums, see what they are up to, reach out for advice

[near ocean]

What industry are they in or how big is the industry
These kinds of things arent generally enforceable regardless, theyre there to scare you into staying and nothing more, but IANAL

I think non competes are pretty standard in contracts, dont think i've read a contract, mine or not, that didnt include some kind of non compete/poaching clause

[delicate bane]

[lapis wind]

Yeah, generally i've seen basicalyl everything being a "Don't steal our clients"

[tranquil heron]

Is python good for data science????

[true harness]

yes

[buoyant seal]

The theory says: in most of cases full stack developer is a front-end developer which can do shitty backend 🙂

[peak halo]

python is the main language used in data science. but to be a data scientist, you have to know a lot of things that aren't actually part of programming or python.

[gilded valley]

"The theory"? What theory?

[peak halo]

the "Darkwind 'full stack devs are front end devs with shitty backend skills' Theory". also known as DFSDAFEDWSBST

[tranquil heron]

OK thx

[ivory sluice]

except in that drawing the backend looks a lot better than the frontend?

[near ocean]

That clause or collection of clauses is to protect the business from your leaving and takin clients with you or starting a directly competing business
Youre an intern, youre not going to do any of that, i think its safe to say youre safe

[lapis wind]

generally speaking it's pretty common

[autumn pumice]

NDA's are pretty common in the USA even for non tech roles.

[near ocean]

Its very standard in tech contracts, length might be off but the general idea yes
I've had non competes in both jobs and my gf had a non compete in her biotech role

[near remnant]

Ah anyways, I have time to decide

[lapis wind]

is this a UK or US company? and in what industry are they primarily involved?

[autumn pumice]

you should check to see how restrictive it is. If its really bothering you you can always consult a lawyer

[gritty rivet]

You can read a lot of relevant stuff on the web. My conclusion is this is just a formality and the chances of them chasing after a former intern for simply going to work somewhere else is virtually nil. They're not going to pay lawyers to give you grief for no reason, they just want to cover themselves in case you do something really untoward

[graceful mason]

in the UK a 5 year non-compete probably wouldn't be enforced if they took you to court - they have to prove that a period of 5 years is necessary and reasonable to protect the business
not sure how that applies to whatever country you're in

[gritty rivet]

It's not unreasonable to push back on this, but I wouldn't turn down a good opportunity just because of this excessive formality

[summer roost]

Do some research on what's normal in your country, then - and on the degree to which non compete agreements are enforceable in your country.

[gritty rivet]

Yes there is considerable risk in turning down the opportunity you have without an alternative in hand and without even knowing whether this is standard practice in your country.

I can only refer you to what I already said... Personally I would ignore it, but you can opt to push back if it really bothers you

Based on what you've said I suspect this emotion is coming from you, not your situation. Sign it, you'll be fine

It would be nice to have multiple options but it doesn't always work out that way.

[peak halo]

Please don't refer to suicidality flippantly in our server. Some of our users might find this disturbing.

[hushed anvil]

And if you really feel that way, there is help.

[gilded valley]

You seemed to be signing the NDA in the UK but apparently not the non compete

Why be oblique? You're asking for a mixture of legal advice and what the norms are for a job market - can you not just mention the countries in question?

[delicate bane]

thats why i was confused at first. it needs to be flipped.

@buoyant seal you find "full stack devs" have better frontend than backend skills in your exp?

[ivory sluice]

in any case, pretty rude to just drop it in response to someone saying they're a full-stack dev

[gusty panther]

So, I'm trying to build up my skills in general to land a job as a backend dev. I'm learning Python and studying as much as I can, and I'm planning on learning Django and SQL. Is there anything else I need for entry-level positions? I'm sure there is, just trying to figure out the fewest number of things I need for an entry level position.

Roadmaps have a tonne of info and it's hard to know what's truly needed for the lowest level backend jobs

[buoyant seal]

Ergh. Frontend developers usually have less available side way roles to develop themselves.
As far as I know it is pretty popular among them to learn some degree of Backend
Plus learning about UI/UX design

Backend developers on another hand can be busy
With learning general software engineering
Growing into more analyst roles, software architect role included
Learning DevOps engineering and all of its branches and further specialisations
They can be even taking some kind of leader / manager positions
...
Plus, I kind of think that after having pleasant situation in backend which is more testable and can be done not in JavaScript(which has some certain stigma around of it, and can be considered less pleasant language to wield than almost any other backend lang), going into frontend can be considered not favourable often enough

Just from this, theoretically, full stack devs should be more often frontend devs

Oh, and I think learning backend has more depth than frontend. Considering that more often people would go easier way, I think it adds once again to have more frontend oriented full stack devs. Is it more though? 🤔

Technically I think frontend development can be having more or less similar depth to backend, but I think this depth is not asked from them usually. Or may be I am just predujiced after encountering frontend devs I encountered

[gritty rivet]

You're right on track. Exactly what skills you need to land a job will depend on everything else, including luck. So my advice would be that as soon as you have a project or two to put on your resume, start applying. If you send out dozens of applications without a single interview, shift back to pushing your skills forward with a more advanced project.

[gusty panther]

What complexity level of projects do you think one needs? @gritty rivet

One idea I had was making a simple backend, but I'm not sure if that's a good idea

[gritty rivet]

The most advanced project I had when I got hired was a simple CRUD API built in Flask.

You can think of it in terms of demonstrating whatever skills are required for the jobs you are applying for. But only at a general level... I definitely know people who are hired to work on Django without any actual Django experience per se

[sonic ether]

hey mates! i am looking for a website that could provide course/challenge/projet in python, in order to improve my skills in python. Moreover, i am looking for certifications or diploma (if possible free) that would attest those skills on a résumé. so: if you have such websites, would you send them to me? thanks

[whole wasp]

When should I negotiate for an offer. Got this email: I hope you are well; I would like to let you know that we are happy to proceed with making you an offer to join us at an hourly rate of $26, plus relevant benefits & PTO.

Kindly let me know if you are happy to accept.

If yes, then I will request our HR Department to prepare a formal offer letter.

If I’m waiting for more interviews should I tell them I need to wait

[hushed anvil]

"I'd love to have an additional conversation about the role responsibilities and compensation. Do you have time for a phone call today?"

[whole wasp]

Shouldn’t I do this after I see the offer letter tho in case there’s something in there I don’t like such as notice date and negotiate after

[hushed anvil]

I wouldn't I would get to them before they spend time building the offer letter. Because if there is something that is an immediate deal breaker (for either party) I don't want to waste more time for anyone.

Also, it's likely the person who wants to offer you the job has little to no negotiation power with you directly, and would direct you to HR.

Most organizations have pretty black/white guidelines for pay structures.

I'm a recruiter (non-tech field) and we have very strict and public guidelines as to how we compensate folks. basePay, then we add 1.5% for each year of experience, then we have a flat differential for a relevant degree (which compounds for more credentials)

So if someone gets an offer for 26 bucks/hr and comes to me and says "I'll do it for 30" I can't edit the offer at all; for equity sake.

[whole wasp]

What’s a reasonable rate to ask?

[hushed anvil]

What's your experience above the minimum qualifications?

[whole wasp]

It’s basically cuz it’s onsite every day so gas and commute time

[sonic ether]

as a recruiter, what kind of diploma you believe in? I mean what kind of diploma are relevant of a skill-level?

[delicate bane]

interesting perspective

[hushed anvil]

I work in mental healthcare, and my state has a certification for QMHA and QMHP, which essentially boils down to a bachelors(in a psychology related field) or equivalent experience for QMHA, and a QMHP is a masters degree. So my benchmarks for relevancy are set by someone above me.

[hushed anvil]

I would say its very dependant on the type of job, the area you live in, etc.

26$/hr in kansas and you're one paycheck away from buying the whole state.

26$/hr in San francisco and you're panhandling for food.

And depending on your company they won't care about the commute aspect because "This is how we've always done it!"

You might be better off working to negotiate for a hybrid schedule of remote/onsite. As that is probably a bit more flexible. Just make sure it's in writing. Be ready to open with something like "After 2-4 months of adjustment and on-site learning, I feel confident that my skill set would allow me to replicate the high quality results I produce in the office at home."

[valid fox]

dont eat tide pods

[hushed anvil]

Also my recruiter hot take, is for the most part I think Degrees are way less indicative of a skill (short of highly specialized professions -- I want my doctor to have a degree. I don't need my car's mechanic to have gone through a mechanical engineering program.)
When I was managing a facility, I would go for the in-person experience over the degree probably 80% of the time. Assuming all other factors were equal. Especially we were hiring folks more-or-less out of college for the direct care positions. a 22 year old who's spent the last 4 years with boots on the ground generally has demonstrated more skill sets relevant to a work environment than a 22 year old who went to school.

[hushed anvil]

You're not the boss of me.

[sonic ether]

yeah i know. in fact it will only for proving that i legally know coding in python. it is to be more relevant on a resume.

[hushed anvil]

Mileage may vary between organizations; some places only hire degree-holding folks, others have a chip on their shoulder like me. I would never discourage anyone from adding college to their resume, but prove that you went beyond the degree learning. Personal projects, meaningful extra trainings or activities. | Like I said not a tech recruiter, but those are the things I would be looking for.

Also I use college, but if you're not from the US, I just mean a university degree

[smoky quest]

CS is a high skilled job.
Degrees serve a much greater purpose than being a piece of paper. They also don't even prove you can code in python.
What they prove is you have received and education about computer science/engineering and has demonstrated enough knowledge to obtain that diploma. This prepares you for more complex and broader tasks for your entire career.

Obviously, having a degree is not a guarantee of being very skilled, but that's a correlation vs causation thing

[sonic ether]

Yeah. Obviously i know. But it is not very relevant to say on a resume " i know coding in python" while someone else whould have put lot of certifications. However every single certification i saw was quite expansive (ex from google or from python.fondation).

[smoky quest]

certifications are worthless when it comes to CS.
They may be considered for IT, security or project management.

[rain reef]

if anyone is good with encryption please dm me $$$

[peak halo]

What are the dollar signs for? Because you can't fish for paid work here.

[gritty rivet]

If there are no other red flags, yes Unless maybe I had a similar offer in hand from a company that doesn't require the same.

This doesn't sound like one of those "train to hire" situations where they absolutely will fine you if you leave early. If that's the case I would only sign on as an absolute last resort. But that's very different from what you're facing

[whole wasp]

Got another job offer is it normal to share full social security number to recruiter over email. She said she needs it for background check

[gritty rivet]

Even if you were to leave and go to a competitor, unless the laws in your country are very different, you can't be required to tell them that. Do you think they are going to hunt you down?

The purpose of these noncompete agreements are to protect trade secrets and the like, not to ruin your career for no reason

[gritty rivet]

Yes, though you can try to insist on a more secure channel if you're concerned. And do be wary of scammers, but it is normal to need that

[whole wasp]

But if it’s a third party background check doing it why can’t I

[gritty rivet]

Why can't you do what?

[whole wasp]

Just give it to them on the background check

[hushed anvil]

generally the recruiter sends the information to the 3rd party. They're eventually going to get your ssn anyway, as you need it for employment

[gritty rivet]

I don't understand. Typically you fill out a form for a background check, which you sign to give permission and your SS will be on there. Your recruiter is just asking for your SS and not giving you a form to sign or anything?

[honest pivot]

Ah, I have a question about third party background checks, actually. The background check company plans to contact my current employer to verify the dates of employment. But I haven't given notice yet. Do you think there is any problem with this? lol

[gritty rivet]

They usually have a checkbox or something so you can ask them not to do this

[whole wasp]

I thought I type the ssn directly on the background check

[gritty rivet]

Depends, but I agree with what EatTidePods said

[honest pivot]

Hmm, we'll see. Not sure if that will be an option. This is EU/UK, by the way.

[hushed anvil]

You can ask them to skip current employer, and sometimes provide alternate proof of employment (pay stubs or similar)

[honest pivot]

I do have tons of pay stubs

[hushed anvil]

Also if your current employer has an HR department, they should be keeping the information confidential from your manager, but there's no real way to ensure that. If you're confident you'll pass the background check, probably best to tell your current employer that you're in that stage.

[delicate bane]

oof. that would be an awkward convo if your employer finds out that you are looking around

[whole wasp]

But why do some recruiters do it and some don’t

[hushed anvil]

Policy, procedure, rules in the work place, some recruiters have direct access to a background check system, others don't.

Like I have access to CRIMS, so when I get a new hire I get their social from their hiring paperwork and submit it and wait for the results.

[smoky quest]

Congrats!

I would recommend to reach out to the new company's HR to let them know about it

[whole wasp]

Why can’t they do what @gritty rivet said and just give me a form to fill out and forward that to the background check

[hushed anvil]

You’d have to ask them, every company does it differently. As a recruiter it’s usually faster if I do it, because otherwise I’m waiting on the applicant to do it. They’re going to get your social anyway if you work there, If you can confirm the person asking for it works for the company no real reason to be apprehensive. You could always ask them, but I’m almost positive it’s not a paper form it’s probably a secure web form with an account that requires special access.

But I don’t work there, so I don’t know how they do things.

[honest pivot]

Ah, they do actually have a checkbox to ask them not to contact, but I have to give a future date by which they can. haha

[honest pivot]

Thanks!

[summer roost]

Your current employer won't necessarily find out why they're being contacted about your dates of employment, FWIW. There's things other than employment where a background check might be performed - taking out a mortgage, possibly, or something like that.

but if you're serious enough about accepting another offer that you've let things progress to the point of doing background checks, you probably should tell your current employer that you're planning to leave - why put it off further?

are you just trying to hedge your bets in case they turn up something in the background check that would lead them to rescind the offer? If so, there's usually a way for you to dispute any incorrect findings from the background check, if that sets your mind at ease - you'd need to check the laws for the countries involved to know what they are, exactly

[honest pivot]

It's more about hedging my bets with respect to immigration processes. I've recently applied for the next level of residence card in this country that is no longer dependent on my employer. I would feel better if I had it in hand before giving notice.

[summer roost]

fair enough, that seems like a reasonable reason to be cautious. The advice above about asking whether there's alternative ways to verify your current employer, like paystubs, is sound. Reach out to HR for the new company and ask them about options. If you explain that your reasons for holding back on notifying the current employer are related to those immigration concerns, I'm sure they wouldn't hold that against you.

[honest pivot]

Possibly. But I did see that the background check company gives the option not to contact them immediately, but instead on some future date. I'm assuming this delays the completion of the background check, I'll probably have to talk to someone to be sure.

[spark zinc]

has anyone interviewed at intel before? whats it like? what kind of questions do they ask?

[pallid sedge]

the kind of shits should be more inclusive, at the end ya r always learnin

[snow viper]

Agreed.
Not up to me to decide tho

[whole wasp]

Can offers be used to negotiate salary?

[autumn pumice]

yes

[whole wasp]

Would they ask for proof

[smoky quest]

they may

Lying about the existence of offers will be pretty bad for you

[whole wasp]

Not lying

[smoky quest]

then you can just black out the identifiable information and show them that

[summer roost]

they're unlikely to ask for proof, I think - but if they do, yeah, you can redact the offer and show it to them. You don't even necessarily have to redact it, but you can if you're concerned.

[low venture]

Hello im 13 and would like to build a career any tips like internship,github, ect!

[summer roost]

Finish high school, get a degree, try to get internships, get a job.

[ashen palm]

My question is related to work-life balance. I work as a Jr. SRE where I take care of all the datacentres across 5 countries (3 continents). Sometimes I am needed late at night. Other times very early in the morning. Even in weekends too.
I'm thinking to about to switch to Developer only. Or work as a DevOps engineer for software delivery only, nothing related to IT operations.
I just want to forget everything after 7pm and wake up at 5am as usual.
Appreciate your thoughts on this....

[smoky quest]

It's at the intersection of the specifics of your companies and your personal goals. It could be other companies take better care of their on-call engineers.
Note also that it's common for developers to be on-call as well as they are responsible for their services.

So whatever makes you happy?

[fiery notch]

Hi , i m starting coding , very early , if any1 is interested in learning together like coding buddy Dm me

[buoyant seal]

I recently struggled with work life balance as well.
I learned a valuable lesson: if your mind is falling asleep, you haven't slept well -> Go and sleep right now.
Then u will be able to wake up with steady stream of concentration and to do job well.
What a novel idea, isn't it? it took me a month of sleep deprivation to learn it.

[smoky quest]

that only works in healthier environments.
I have seen companies where on-call engineers, who pulled all nighters, were expected to still be in the office by 9am. That did create a lot of turn over as well though

[uncut crag]

Any decent Programing Certs with a Python focus out there? Been looking at a few and figured it might be a great refresher for myself and decent resume builder. When I say certs I mean like college level certs not just one class.

[smoky quest]

certifications aren't worth much in the context of career programming

[uncut crag]

Any recommendations then?

[smoky quest]

if you want an equivalent to a CS degree, there are none that I am aware of other than an actual CS degree

[uncut crag]

No thats not really what I'm looking for. More so a dedicated program that focuses on python but has some sort of recognition of completion. MIT has a program but its not python focused. https://executive-ed.xpro.mit.edu/professional-certificate-coding?utm_source=Google&utm_network=g&utm_medium=c&utm_term=mit coding&utm_location=9032904&utm_campaign_id=17059210457&utm_adset_id=135511780229&utm_ad_id=594796381435&gclid=CjwKCAjw6fyXBhBgEiwAhhiZskizWyFPZweFg7vIPnxfzE2RcdbynuWTmWzTNVYed9XZJxZ3r0TyLRoC2dYQAvD_BwE

[smoky quest]

There are none that I am aware of in the professional world

[summer roost]

does your group have an on-call rota? Or occasional night shifts thrown into your schedule? Or do they just expect you to be available 24/7?

[uncut crag]

Hmm I'm skeptical to believe there are none. But thank you.

[smoky quest]

As an employer, none of them would be comparable to a CS degree or something I would consider differently from a self-taught person. That's the same across my network.
Maybe it's different in your market/area

[summer roost]

I'll back recursive up on this: employers, at least for software engineer jobs, don't care about certificates.

[smoky quest]

That said, if you feel that certificate would help provide the structure or curriculum you need to acquire the skills you target, then it may be worth it, regardless how it's considered itself by future employers

[uncut crag]

Gotcha. I’m already a Cloud Automation Engineer and wasn’t looking for something comparable to a CS degree more so something focused on Python that isn’t just a Udemy course. Looking to strength my knowledge and get a sense of accomplishment too

[smoky quest]

in these cases, demonstrated skills or projects would matter more than any cert

[uncut crag]

Okay remove the factor of getting hired 😂

[summer roost]

well, then - do you learn better from courses, or from books?

[buoyant seal]

usually i thought a choice between learning from videos or from books

[summer roost]

they seem to be asking about instructor-led courses, from the way I understood the question

but sure, we can throw videos into the mix (does anyone learn effectively from videos?)

[buoyant seal]

i am a book person, so i don't for sure, but all the time i hear praising to Cofrey Shefrey something videos. Forgot its name correctly how to write.

[smoky quest]

in general, using different approaches to learn can yield great results.
I would recommend to pick whatever works for you. For me, I am fine learning from books and practice.

[buoyant seal]

yeah. my favourite is books + practice at job and in pet projects methods 🙂
there are sometimes rarely, exist some conference nice to watch in addition.
Oh.. and i forgot to have mentioned that speaking here in Discord is yet another source of learning for me.

[smoky quest]

discord is great for beginners or learning something new!
However, I haven't had much luck for more seasoned topics

[summer roost]

some of our topical channels can help for really niche topics - like C extensions

[buoyant seal]

i grabbed a lot in discord devops server. This topic is like... quite... pretty much possible to get sometimes only from other people

[smoky quest]

I know, I see you there sometimes 😉

[summer roost]

the biggest problem when it comes to advanced stuff is that the audience of people who can help is smaller than the audience of people who want to help

[uncut crag]

Less creators too. Everyone can build a “learn Python in 1 hours.” Course

Ty for the feedback though. I’ve never been a boot camp person and heard they are honestly a bit of a waste of money. I’ll go back to my Python books and Udemy courses :p

[smoky quest]

look also for opportunities to leverage it in your job

[uncut crag]

I only write in Python for scripting currently for work which is nice. My problem is I’ve been in DevOps for 3-4 years but a part of that was being stuck on an infra team that had a lot of non related DevOps work so I don’t feel like I have 3-4 years experience so my programing/scripting skills have been lacking but things like terraform or pipelines are fine. I hate that imposter syndrome feeling but hey I keep getting hired and paid well so guess it works out.

[smoky quest]

• Don't be afraid of doing things you don't know. That's part of the fun and growing.
• If you only do things you already know, then where is the growth?
• Chances are it sounds more scary than it actually is
• In devops, there are many opportunities to introduce a new python tool or service. These are great ways to get to demonstrate your skills in a professional environment

[uncut crag]

Yup 100%. Sometimes its great to hear those things again. Thanks again for the feedback.

[smoky quest]

If I am hiring a dev and someone with a different background applies, then it becomes about:

• What do they bring to the table
• What is the cost function between what they are and what I am looking for. How are they reducing the risk?

[uncut crag]

Totally thats how I got my first devops role. No cloud experience no IaC experience but I've managed large projects and worked with clients for a long time so they were willing to help get me trained up.

[summer roost]

what do you mean by "jump ship"?

[summer roost]

it's weird to say "towards the end", then - I'd hope you mean that you'll allow the internship to run to completion?

[delicate bane]

its just an internship...not a marriage

[rocky wraith]

need help with selenium webdriver reach #help-pie for more details

[peak halo]

@rocky wraith this is the career discussion channel. please make sure all your messages are on-topic.

[delicate bane]

i think your worries are misplaced but thats me

#career-advice message

[near ocean]

Because you're an intern, not an expert, you're not going to pull any existing client away if you leave, you wont start a competing business, these clauses just aren't for you

[honest pivot]

A 5 year non compete sounds absurd even for a fairly important full time employee. Are you sure that's what it says?

What does it actually say? Like what is covered under the non compete?

[gilded valley]

There has been so much conversation about this non-compete with so few details. It hasn't been said what country, what industry, what the scope of the non-compete is. At this point it seems a bit silly to me

for all anyone else knows, an NDA/non-compete of this unknown scope is completely and utterly the norm in this unknown country in this unknown industry

[true harness]

yes, in fact you probably should

[honest pivot]

A five year NDA is totally reasonable. You originally mentioned the NDA and the non compete together, I can only conclude you're getting them mixed up.

That sounds like two things

[true harness]

they're both for 5 years?

[gilded valley]

my mistake for bringing the NDA into it - I don't think Dos mentioned it today. But 5 years of "don't poach our clients" seems completely and utterly reasonable

[honest pivot]

There's a huge difference between "don't poach our clients" and "you can't work for anyone else in this industry". You haven't said what the terms actually are.

Non competes can say all kinds of things

Nobody can tell you if it's normal or reasonable without knowing what the terms actually are. If you have concerns, you should consult a lawyer. You can also try reading up on what sorts of non compete clauses are enforceable in your jurisdiction. But you should probably ask a lawyer about that as well.

[graceful mason]

that's non-solicitation, not a non-compete

[gilded valley]

it's written as a non-compete clause in my contract

[graceful mason]

oh interesting

[near ocean]

Is this company on glassdoor? Whats their average tenure? This definitely not something to worry about imho as others have said

[small lance]

I got a question guys please

im getting an error on python when running a code, Error: Message: 'chromedriver.exe' executable needs to be in PATH. Please see chromedriver.chromium.org/home

[graceful mason]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[graceful mason]

#❓｜how-to-get-help

[untold grove]

hate when you work so hard to solve an error only for it to be a small syntax error?

[summer roost]

How is that related to careers?

[minor fulcrum]

web developing vs app developing vs data scientist ???

which is best for earning high

@summer roost

[novel sequoia]

Ds

[summer roost]

it's probably best to do your own research on your local job market. Web developers tend to be paid pretty poorly relative to other types of developers. Backend developers tend to be better compensated, as are data scientists.

[novel sequoia]

Ds is good for higher salaries but require more brainstorming rather than writing code

[peak halo]

Data science (or at least AI) pays very well, but it also has a high education barrier to entry.

[gilded valley]

Python is not the main or the most difficult ask when it comes up data science

[peak halo]

Indeed. It's mostly your understanding of the theory (and by that I largely mean the math) that underpins AI. The distance between theory and practical application is much shorter for AI than it is for programming in general.

[novel sequoia]

What should be the roadmap for data science?
(I am 16 btw so make it a bit more understandable for a child )

[peak halo]

I've seen a data science road map shared a few times in this channel, but if you want to be a professional data scientist one day, the most important thing you can do--by orders of magnitude--is to do well in school, and in your math classes especially.

[near remnant]

Learn Scala or/and Python for DS

[novel sequoia]

after that

[near ocean]

after uni? just apply to junior positions

[gilded valley]

1. Get great grades in high school
2. Go to a good university - actually learn the underlying maths and core of data science
3. During bachelors, try to get a position as a research assistant and try to get your name on some publications

[errant warren]

hey, I am 19 year old and I am quite confused about how to make a career in tech. anyone any suggestions?

[summer roost]

what sort of tech do you want a career in? If you're interested in a career as a software engineer, the easiest path is going to a university for a computer science degree

[thorny plume]

Hello everyone! I'm Unity Game designer and am discovering python. I would be interested to hear insights and recommendations about what would be the most straight forward and efficient learning roadmap to get to work in VFX/cgi related jobs using python, if anyone can give me advices, I'd appreciate it :)

[lapis wind]

Generally don't want to discourage you from learning python but VFX/CGI is probably the main industry python has the weakest use in out everything just because performance is a must generally and often you want as little overhead as possible.

Which is why CPP is just absolutely dominant thanks to things like Unreal Engine which is probably the bread a butter of VFX and CGI now. Which sounds weird considering it started out as a game engine but generally speaking it's just a beast.

I don't know of any CGI /VFX done direct in python outside of hobby projects or a minimal wrapper around a c/CPP backbone used for small things.

[thorny plume]

Ohh i understand! Actually I was first orienting myself around data engineering, but as I've been in game industry for six years and I love that, i was investigating possibilities to stay around it...

[vague bloom]

use cases for python in game industry: data science -> (marketing, cheat detection, sentiment of game community IE toxicity), data engineering -> supporting the data science + adjacent teams who make decisions about and within games. Probably others but im not in the gaming industry and likely depends what kind of games your company makes

[inner wren]

@umbral vortex Per Rule 6, your invite link has been removed. If you believe this was a mistake, please let staff know!

Our server rules can be found here: https://pythondiscord.com/pages/rules

[steel sequoia]

Hello all, could someone please tell me what methods and resources are most effective for learning Python? I understand that projects and playing around with concepts is the best way but, I have trouble being able to put into practice the things that I learned over time

[smoky quest]

Hi!
Can you put it in the context of #career-advice ?

[steel sequoia]

What would be best for someone who’s trying to learn Python and also interested in the cybersecurity field?

[smoky quest]

a CS degree is best

[steel sequoia]

What resources and practices would be best to understand Python most efficiently, in your opinion?

[smoky quest]

#career-advice message

Certificates and such don't really matter in CS for jobs

Also fyi, If you are looking for generic resources to learn about python, that would be the wrong channel

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[smoky quest]

@steel sequoia ^ might be more appropriate since your question seems off topic for this channel

[steel sequoia]

Thank you

[vapid jay]

hey! im gonna be studying cyber security in uni and i read that python is the best overall language for that anyone knows any good websites or videos or content creators to learn from

[smoky quest]

scroll up a bit. There was the very same question right before you.
Also congrats!

[vapid jay]

Thank u!

[thorny plume]

Oh I see, thanks for the insights :)

[rugged tundra]

howdy, sorry for the ignorant question..

I have been learning to code for a few months (web dev, html, css, JS) but decided to give Python a go and love it.. When learning web dev I had a pretty clear path to the industry (junior web developer) but with Python it seems there are so many different opportunities. Just wondering what path (if any) would have a lower barrier to entry for someone hoping to transition into coding full time? I have seen positions like junior data engineer etc but not sure how a position like that compares to junior web developer for barrier to entry. Thanks

[buoyant seal]

ignorance is to be not knowing/ or barely knowing something and being fully confident there is nothing to know further. ;b
describe better your educational background though? where are you right now?

[buoyant seal]

usually easiest way to enter, is to get computer science degree + then learning further some path specifics

usually python related things assume going fully software engineering or data science way. both ways kind of much easier to enter with CS degree

well, except when python is used just for scripting, but that's another story

[rugged tundra]

Hey thanks. I have no degree whatsoever, I am hoping to make a career change. I live in Australia, my current city has a major shortage (somewhat due to less immigration I believe). I began learning web development a few months ago, from scratch (no prior experience) learning html, css and JS, "styling" wasn't my favourite thing, I preferred writing JS. I have since decided to give python a go which I love and plan to stick with from here on out. I am not in the tech industry so I can't say first hand how "in-demand" it is here, though a friend of my wife recently secured a position paying 80k after doing a only a udemy course (not the only example), the local government (state) is also running programs to help people transition into tech (free bootcamps + guaranteed internships etc) to help get people into the industry.

As I work full time I am on no such program though I spend my time outside of work studying. There are many junior web dev positions advertised that require minimal experience, I'm just not sure what would be equivalent barrier to entry wise if I want to stick with Python.

[buoyant seal]

Ergh. In my origin country a high shortage too. The problem is... the shortage is for skilled devs(from middle rank and higher / or just for which are having 3 years+ of experience), even at this level competion is pretty high. Competion is high enough among interns/juniors which finished university and wishing to enter their IT career. competion is even higher among the people who just finished courses.

[buoyant seal]

it would make sense more to try achieving middle rank of skill level as soon as it is possible in order to secure your standing. Scanning job advertisements to understand what is requried at this level, asking other people what is not told but should be known at this level
only then i think a person has more or less secure standing
Aiming for junior rank is like aiming for almost nothing at all.

Juniors devs are usually... still like interns, which consume more investment than they bring value.

Just be sure to known, that dev is made not only out of hard/tech skills. Person with completely messed up soft skills would not be really desired. Development is a team play thing.

[tired magnet]

guys I'm in need of some guidance, can i share my backstory here and some details so you could maybe give me some tips on what to focus on to achieve my goals?

[buoyant seal]

that is what this channel for (yay, the channel is going to be used for its purpose instead of off topic 🎉 )

[tired magnet]

okay so, I'm 21 atm, student of association degree (C.S), I live in iran, my goal is to move and get a good job in another country (preferably in EU), I was introduced to programming at age of 10, wrote a somewhat solid app for androind (java) at 13 and that made around 150$ a day, and with that money I made a stupid decision, I bought a god damn ps4 and since then I was addicted to gaming and did absolutely nothing code related, so here I am, starting again, learning python, the language syntax is really easy and I didn't have any issue learning the fundamentals, I sped ran through the basics and now I'm taking a course at coursera (automation in python by google), that course is gonna give me a certificate, not sure how viable it is but well better than nothing, my resume is empty, no work experience, and no actual projects, getting hired here is extremely difficult, they expect someone with 5 years experience and pay less than 500$ a month, I'm lost atm, just studying as much as I can and maybe solving some leetcodes, and have absolutely no Idea how to continue

[buoyant seal]

i kind of can relate to it. my origin country is not having it that rough, but half way there already

[tired magnet]

where do you live if you don't mind me asking

[buoyant seal]

i lived in russia, now i live in another country

[tired magnet]

hopefully we both move to a better country

[rugged tundra]

Thanks, I did complete the AWS CCP certificate over Christmas (which I know is a useless cert) however, I have also recently started studying for the SAA certification to build upon the CCP. This seems to be a fairly sought after certyification in my city, so I hope this will give me an advantage at least over those who don't have it. Thanks for the advice, I'm not too concerned about the soft skills as I have been in a full-time working environment with office politics for many years, that I at least know how to navigate, it's the tech side I'm trying to get skilled in lol.

[tired magnet]

but yeah my main problem is building a resume, I'm willing to do any project and spend months on it if needed if 1: i like the idea of the project and enjoy doing it, 2: if i get an actual idea of what to do, i swear everything is already written lol

[buoyant seal]

i think people need to polish only their tech skills in their earlier career. for soft skills i think the goal in earlier career just to be not becoming an over-confident dick xD

[buoyant seal]

perhaps you know prefferences enough to know in which type of development you wish to be? in earlier years, it really matters to have specialization in order to get easier hired

[tired magnet]

i was in love with mobile app development, but I don't see a future for myself in that atm, but rn I'm a bit lost, so many paths and i like each equally, but mostly focused on backend rn

i haven't explored data science and ai or machine learning yet, not sure about them, and I kinda dislike web-development

[buoyant seal]

ergh, why you are focused on backend then if you dislike web development?

[tired magnet]

i dislike the front-end side of it 😁

[buoyant seal]

well, that's acceptable 😛

[tired magnet]

scripting and automation is also fun, not sure if there is a meaningful career in that tho

[buoyant seal]

roadmaps are there what to learn https://roadmap.sh/backend
i build my personal backend roadmap also https://raw.githubusercontent.com/darklab8/darklab_backend_roadmap/master/swe_backend.drawio.svg
for backend you need learning Light-Purple(Python), Yellow(Backend) and most importantly Green(SWE) skills

[tired magnet]

but I'm willing to focus on web-development even I don't like it that much if it's a good career path (full-stack)

[tired magnet]

thanks, will check it out

[tired magnet]

not gonna lie that roadmap of yours is scary, jesus

[buoyant seal]

well. when you would reach it, you will discover only more and more unmapped skills around of it. it is kind of always not enough to know what you know now.
process of learning never stops 🙂 the career in IT lasts as long as you keep learning, as long as you keep going.

[tired magnet]

yeah so many things to learn, a bit scary

all i hope is I'm not late for starting over and actually commit

[buoyant seal]

21 is pretty young. people take time to just finish their university and getting their degrees until 22-25 years

[tired magnet]

i wanna gtfo of iran asap

[minor fulcrum]

np
is 3 - 3.5 years are enough to master it ?

[peak halo]

"master" it? you can't do that in an entire lifetime. if your question is actually how quickly you can become job-ready, it would be "as long as it takes to finish a relevant degree, and probably also grad school".

[slate pasture]

how to get project here?i saw a channel like that
they will give us work for paid and for free

[buoyant seal]

!rule 9

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[wet heart]

@static geyser hello there

[static geyser]

No way

How long have u been here lmao

[wet heart]

Bout a year

[static geyser]

Well, that is interesting.

Have u been villified for having your about me written in the wrong language yet?

Lovely epic games name btw

[wet heart]

I was originally thinking about doing python. Did a teeny bit. Then forgot it all. And forgot I was in this server.

[wet heart]

Thx 💀

[dire pike]

yo

[slate pasture]

hm..

actually it's on other servers

[peak halo]

This channel is for career discussion, so please make sure that all your messages are about that.

[slate pasture]

k

[ashen palm]

No calls. Me and my supervisor create the automation. Usually during change requests, the it operations bother us. That's what's annoying about this job. Also lack of test servers and directly testing on production forces me to be available to test my code in times that's unhealthy.

[buoyant seal]

no staging env (test servers)? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiPEGBOvu1Y

[wise spoke]

Good News:

• I managed to get the grades to attend the Uni I wanted.

Bad News:

• I am 6 words over limit of a scholarship essay. How bad is it?

I kind of don't want to delete them

[true harness]

really bad. if you can't follow simple instructions, why would they accept you

[wise spoke]

Make sense.
I guess I'll see what I can burn off.

[true harness]

shouldn't be too difficult. you can also ask for edits if you want, that should be allowed i think

[wise spoke]

Deadline is tonight lol. Won't be able to make it with many edits.

I'll just try to proof read and edit as much as I can.

I was so convinced that I won't make it to the Uni that I didn't have the energy to write it.

Even if its not successful, I would rather write the scholarship and be rejected, than to not write it.

[uncut mist]

Are CS career jobs boring?

I like playing and learning with software, data sets and algorithms, so I am thinking of taking CS major. But in the end I don't want to work for the gains of some random company.

[peak halo]

there's no universal answer to this question. it depends on what one finds interesting, and what a given job involves. the number of possibilities for those two parameters are incalculable.

[uncut mist]

Oh ok, it's a hard choice then.

[peak halo]

there are a lot of domains within CS. try learning about the different ones, and see which appeals to you.

[minor fulcrum]

but google says it need 4 - 8 month
huh

[buoyant seal]

https://c.tenor.com/MFE6UiMEpRoAAAAC/math-zack-galifianakis.gif
it looks like yet another online courses bs 🙂

[minor fulcrum]

hahaa

[buoyant seal]

online training platforms promise you 100% job landing chance, super salary, 1 hour to learn thing
just give them money in return (the most important step)

in my origin country it reached really bad state. we call them infogypsies here for this money stealing approach

[balmy mural]

DSA and Data Science are also two vastly different things

[autumn pumice]

I always felt like you cant do good data science unless you have a solid math background (basically a graduate degree in math or statistics)

[vague bloom]

Data science is a terrible word

All good science involves data

“Data science” at most companies looks like pivot tables

[peak halo]

DSA is something different, but regardless of what Google or any website says, there's no formal set of criteria for what it means to "master" data science.

[peak halo]

I'm not sure when the term "data science" was coined relative to the data science hype train, but I just use it as a catch-all for AI/ML and anything that depends on a similar tech stack.

it's probably one of those cases where we all got tricked into thinking a new concept had been created, when someone just assigned a new name to an existing one. like "cancelling".

[vague bloom]

Lots of snake oil in the data world but doesn’t mean you shouldn’t get into it. My take is that it is easier for a phd in some field to pick up programming than it is for a programmer with not a lot of math and stats background to pick up being a useful data scientist

[peak halo]

if they have a phd in something computation-heavy (that isn't CS), they probably already know matlab or R

[summer roost]

Or Python, or Java, or C++

[celest trench]

Just a question in general...So can you apply to a "junior xyz" position while still being at uni ? - Of course asking the company directly is always an option just wanted to know if someone has some relevant expirience 🙂

[leaden knot]

You can use more businessy language like Business Intelligence, Business Analyst. What they do is essentially still data science, even if it doesn't involve Optimal Transport, continuous-time Markov chains, optimisation in arbitrary norms, etc.

And you can try to teach business-ideas to PhDs, but whether they will actually do it is another thing altogether.

[peak halo]

it's normal to start applying during your last year of uni. some places might offer you part time positions that transition to full time once you graduate. but if you're not in your last year, you should focus on your courses and do internships in the summer.

[celest trench]

kk

[summer roost]

I personally know two software engineers whose educational background is a PhD in theoretical physics, and one in computational chemistry. They all needed to use some general purpose programming language, not just R or Matlab.

[dark arrow]

swe after a phd in theoretical physics!?

[leaden knot]

Why not, if it pays the bills?

Maybe Sandia, LANL or NIST aren't/weren't hiring, or they can't beat that Silicon Valley VC money

[autumn pumice]

I mean its already a huge endeavor to get a phd. im surprised people are willing to take on learning computer science afterwards as well

[vague bloom]

It’s definitely one of the best ways to apply the phd…nobody is doing cancer research completely with pencil and paper

[autumn pumice]

i know this is totally anecdoctal but i do know one person who is a cancer researcher and for all the really technical computer stuff they just hire someone else to do it.

[uncut mist]

I am interested in computer science and biology, don't know what to choose
Both are very different majors

[vague bloom]

There is a big overlap

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computational_biology

[uncut mist]

I wanted to ask how hard is it to get a remote job as comp sci major?
I will have to save up some money for my further education

[vague bloom]

It was easier mid Covid but the barrier to entry to get a remote job is much lower

[uncut mist]

Oh ok lol, that makes the decision harder :/

[gilded valley]

Do you mean a remote job while studying? If so, why does it have to be remote?

[uncut mist]

I have social issues and I was thinking if I can get some work in high cost of living area

Hope they don't check my area

[gilded valley]

This is pie-in-the-sky stuff, and almost entirely impossible. If you want to be employed whilst studying, then in-person is pretty much the only feasible way

[uncut mist]

Oh ok, thanks for letting me know

[gilded valley]

The one exception would be doing something very generic like remote call-center work, but that pays poorly and isn't particularly valuable experience. You'd be better off working in a supermarket

[uncut mist]

If it pays according to US, it will be a lot for me in India. But ik mostly they check the country etc

[gilded valley]

you absolutely will not get a US salary in India whilst studying

[uncut mist]

But thats not the only reason, I like doing coding and playing with software

But the jobs and market is oversaturated so yeah..

[gilded valley]

I'm not clear on the question you're asking. Are you talking about a job to do while you're studying - while you're still at university - or one for when you have finished university?

[uncut mist]

while I'm studying

[deft mural]

Questions , does it matter that much if u go to a Russel group uni or not for a cs degree

[peak halo]

what is the Russel group?

[dark arrow]

group of top colleges in uk

[peak halo]

I doubt that CS graduates from other universities in the UK aren't getting jobs.

[deft mural]

Would it be worth it to wait a whole year just to get into one

Or just get into a decent one now

[gilded valley]

It does, although not a huge amount. The two things that matter are that the courses are considerably more difficult meaning that higher attrition speaks to higher average ability of the graduates; and companies put more effort into recruiting from them, meaning you're more likely to end up at a top tier company

[gilded valley]

Unless you think you're likely to pay off the student loan in full, then you 100% should go this year. Otherwise changes to the structure of student loans will likely cost 10s of thousands

It is absolutely not worth delaying - if you wanted to spend an extra year for those credentials, just do a masters degree after a non-russel group university instead

[deft mural]

Thank u for the advise it was very beneficial like very I couldn’t find anyone reliable to talk to lol 👍

[gilded valley]

Russel Group is broad strokes equivalent to Ivy League - although all universities in the UK cost the exact same amount

[peak halo]

excellent answer 👍🏻

[tidal gazelle]

How hard is further math for A-levels, and how worth is it in general for software engineering universities?

[near ocean]

Its very worth it, definitely pick it up, pretty much standard

[gilded valley]

If you get to pick four A-levels, it's well worth it as one of them, but what matters most of all is making sure you actually get three decent grades at the end of your a levels. An A in physics is more valuable than a C in further maths.

[tidal gazelle]

Why is physics so important?

[gilded valley]

Physics isn't, it's just a random STEM A-level - swap in any science and it holds true. What I'm trying to get across is that you shouldn't commit to FM if you'll struggle to get a good grade in it, you should instead make sure you actually get the good grades

[tidal gazelle]

Ah okay. And what about the hardness of FM? Maybe compared to normal a level math

[gilded valley]

It's been too long for me to really have a particularly well informed opinion on that

Ask the teachers about difficulty, they will probably have a better take.

[near ocean]

Something with the qualifier "further" will probably be harder in general, yes

[gilded valley]

And if it's the same school you did your GCSEs at, they'll know you personally.

[tidal gazelle]

Okay - lastly, is normal math not very helpful right now? Because I saw above that further math is standard

[gilded valley]

Normal maths is a hard requirement at a lot of good universities, and you need to take it in order to do FM

[near ocean]

Both are standard to consider, youre not going to get into a uni without core maths

[gilded valley]

Are you in Australia @tidal gazelle ?

[tidal gazelle]

That's where I plan to go to uni

[gilded valley]

But you're in the UK at the moment?

[tidal gazelle]

I'm doing the British syllabus, if that's what you were asking

[peak halo]

@near ocean @gilded valley would either of you mind explaining what A level maths are? It would be good for my future reference.

[gilded valley]

The structure of education in the UK is that if you intend to go to university, between the ages of 16-18 you study for standardised exams called A-Levels. A-levels work at most places by choosing 4 subjects to study in your first year - e.g maths, physics, biology, english literature, and you typically drop one of the four in your second year. These three grades are the thing that universities look at when considering applications, e.g for the best universities they ask for AAA* (A*==A+) including maths. "Further Maths" is one of the subjects that you can take alongside maths, and whatever else

[graceful mason]

you start off by doing GCSEs (mandatory education) and then can choose to do A-levels or college (e.g. Btech) before going to Uni
I think in the US the equivalent is APs? although A-levels have a much more specific curriculum

[peak halo]

AP (advanced placement) courses are in essence regular high school courses, but at the end you take a standardized exam, and if you do well on that exam, universities might count that course towards your degree requirements.

It isn't directly connected to ones admissions prospects, but taking the courses usually reflects well on the student

[peak halo]

Thanks for the explanation 👍

[near ocean]

I'm not a UK citizen, I grew up and studied for them in a different EU country
I could study as many A-levels as I wanted, I opted for 4 of them, they're about high school level in terms of difficulty so if it all clicks for you you could pump them out like its nothing

Going by what uni counselors were suggesting back then I did Core Maths, Further Maths, Physics, Chemistry, this combo was pretty popular among students

[gilded valley]

To compare to other qualifications, IBs are generally considered to be a bit more difficult

[near ocean]

The only other similar exam i can compare them to is the national exams back home and panhellenic exams (which I gave a blank exam transcript to cause I was set with a-levels), they're much harder than a-levels

[left socket]

For Further Maths, I would consider whether your teacher's way of explaining things had been intuitive for you. You might be stuck learning it yourself for a whole year if not. And also the modules they are willing to offer. Mechanics, stats and FP are very different.

[brave wraith]

I know people probably ask this constantly, but I am trying to figure out how I can shore up my python skills in my current work place. The problem is I work in a heavily regulated environment (pharmaceuticals) where pretty much every system is locked down and custom scripts would have go through huge amounts of testing and QA to be implemented anywhere.

[peak halo]

That's not a common question, no.

By "implement", it sounds like you mean "deploy". But python is a programming language, and I can't think of a situation where it can help you if you're not even allowed to run the programs.

Is there a relatively large problem (reports that have to be generated every day, or something like that) that could be somewhat-permanently solved with an automation? If something has business value and doesn't require lots of updates, it might be easier to convince the powers that be to let you program a solution and deploy it.

[brave wraith]

I have brainstormed a little bit mostly come up dry. The best place I could think of would be something involving the use of Azure Dev Ops. Not sure how easily you can access that with python

[vapid jay]

I start as a data scientist at a company selling AI software this October, and my team leader says I shouldn't be worried about not knowing enough since I'll be trained a lot during my first few projects. I still feel like I could be doing more to get ready though...
I read a lot of books but is there anything practical that would be important to do (or at least confidence building) beforehand?

[peak halo]

Why is it that your systems are so locked down? Information security? Because my guess is that any way around these protocols that you can think of is just moving the problem.

[peak halo]

If they didn't want you, they wouldn't have hired you. And if they weren't going to train you, your team leader would have told you that.

What do you feel your current weaknesses are?

[vapid jay]

I just don't want my lack of experience to put me in positions where I'm just emailing people for ms teams calls to get help with every little thing
Apparently that would be fine but it sounds like a painful work day lol

[brave wraith]

Information security is one reason I would guess. That's typical with lots of large companies I think. Pharma in general just has lots of federal regulations about data and documentation.

[vapid jay]

and I'm not certain besides lack of actual experience doing programming work or data scientist work

closest thing I've done was a research gig in the math department back in undergrad, but I've never done an internship or anything

[peak halo]

@vapid jay did you just or are about to finish an MS?

[vapid jay]

nope, just finished my Bachelor's in May

[peak halo]

You're probably not as helpless as you think you are.

[vapid jay]

I hope not!! aaa

[peak halo]

And even if you don't deliver any business value for some period of time, the company will probably just see that as an investment.

[vapid jay]

u right

[ancient acorn]

How python is used in ml

[peak halo]

can you be more specific? you can do end-to-end ML development in Python.

[tidal gazelle]

For software engineering, in A-levels, would the subjects math, physics and computer science be better than math, physics and chemistry? Because I did some research and seems many people take chemistry

[buoyant seal]

i know that it is a strange thing that happens only in India. But it is surely a really strange thing for the rest of the world to have chemistry for CS.

it would make more sense having Math/Physics/Computer Science.

technically Physics is already out of touch for CS, if they don't deal with hardware. Well. it is still nice to know something if you are going to be in game dev.

technically Math is out of touch too xD if you aren't going data science way / game dev.

how Chemistry was added i have no idea.

[smoky quest]

math is quite important for CS in general, not just data science or game dev

[buoyant seal]

can u formulate why?

[smoky quest]

It's the foundation to many topics. Going from compilers, to architecturing backend to understanding cryptography.

It has been quite helpful to follow papers, implement them and adapt with the latest and greatest innovations

[buoyant seal]

Okay, I get point regarding cryptography.
But how it could be helpful to architecture backend?

[smoky quest]

Modeling traffic, queues, patterns and also quite helpful when doing performance/load testing

For instance, there are statistical distributions to model the rate at which requests arrive

The goal as an engineer is not to derive new proofs or theorems. The goal is to be able to use them as tools for the job

As a lesser requirement, it's also quite useful to be able to put the complexity of your system into an equation

[buoyant seal]

At which point it would be useful to do modelling?
Isn't it enough just to see requests amount ploted in some monitoring system, with seeing it for different time periods (H1,W1,M1...). A human eye would be enough to catch things

[smoky quest]

Not all the relationships are linear.
In these cases, the amount of work to be done may be more complex than ax+b.

Although if they are linear, it's still useful for capacity planning 😉
But it's just simpler either way in this case

[buoyant seal]

Kind of feeling like Data Science approach to a problem

[stiff cobalt]

why cant i go to desktop in cmd prompt

and is this the right channel to ask this

[smoky quest]

They are both using math, just for different purpose.
I would refrain from calling data science everything with math.

Another type math I have enjoyed and learned post-HS is about fourrier/laplace transforms and signal processing. It surfaces in sooooo many areas

[smoky quest]

Hi! This is #career-advice to discuss about careers. So it's not the right channel.
See #❓｜how-to-get-help

[smoky quest]

also another type of math that the USA seems to consider as math is logic.
logic/system experts are also quite useful in many areas

[coarse crag]

Oh yeah i agree. I mean, even algorithm and logic design in cs stems from math. (Trying to learn algorithms made me realize how much i underestimated the math in cs 😭)

And also for figuring out time complexity for the algorithm which definitely needs some math. (Big O notation)

[near ocean]

Many universities in the UK advise you not to do CS a-level, people usually need another a-level pick so they go with chemistry or biology

[tidal gazelle]

Why not?

[near ocean]

Its badly designed garbage course and universities would rather teach you things their way from the very beginning

[tidal gazelle]

In the Cambridge exam board?

Although even if its bad wouldn't it still provide some base knowledge?

[near ocean]

https://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/why_oxford/standard_conditional_offers.html#Computer Studies or Information Technology A-level

[tidal gazelle]

Would this be different for Australia, any idea?

[bold epoch]

Would including some anti-ToS webscrapping to provide data for a resume project be frowned upon?

In this circumstance Amazon used include all the information in their api, but later removed it. So decided it might be doable to real time webscrape (review information for NLP)

[gilded valley]

Some people would recommend against including it, but I would include it. If it came up in an interview, I'd definitely try to make sure that I understood there was a pertinent legal risk, and that I wouldn't do the same thing for commercial purposes without someone else OKing it

[bold epoch]

Yeah I've come across few who would say academics/researchers for such projects are generally alright, but id definitely want to be aware that its not allowed and employ best practices to minimally impact the site

[leaden knot]

Is it possible to circumvent it by taking the data from a 2nd source? For example, there are academic institutions that rehost past-scraped Amazon data. If the data you need is exactly as how the research did it, then you can just reuse that, and leave liability issues with that institution

Oh but yes, there is a likelihood those scrapers are left up for academic usage rather than commercial ones. This would be acceptable for use in your own resume still though

[gilded valley]

If it's literally just the underlying data for the project - and you don't want to actually directly reference the webscraping - I wouldn't worry in the slightest

[bold epoch]

ah see i have used freely available data to develop the models however i wanted to implement into "production" as a project

[gilded valley]

Including that project on a CV seems worth it to me, it's showing some actual real world skill rather than just building models in isolation which is quite valuable

[bold epoch]

yeah I thought it would stand out, but this grey area has me slightly doubting it

[gilded valley]

I really wouldn't worry over it too much

[shell iron]

I need help

[near ocean]

Hello, what kind of #career-advice related help do you need?

[somber swift]

hey is there someone here i would like some advice

[gilded valley]

you're better off just asking

[somber swift]

oh well rn im thinking aboutr applying for Veterinary Technician at university of Queensland Australia, but the pay scale after passing out is 60k-70k AUD but i can also apply for Bachelor in computer science which cost around the same, and im interested in both fields but the things about vet Tech is that i can just job right away since there is huge shortage of vets worldwide but im not sure about CS tho, can you guide me a little in that field ?>

[near ocean]

This depends on whether you're comfortable working an office job for 40h a week
In a similar situation, my gf studied biotech and worked in it for a year, on her feet all day, in the lab, doing wild biotech shit
She also has a passion for charity so she took a job in charity and has hated her job for the fact that she's stuck inside all day being a project coordinator, not able to go outside at all
Right now she's trying to go back to biotech

[somber swift]

well actually work hours are same i think but everyone say veterinary is highly underpaid then any other field that's the only reason im scared of going in veterinary field and not to mention and im 23 and i already did 2 years of veterinary diploma here in india and i think i have the best job in this world i only have to work 20-30 hours a week and the salary is more than enough according to India's standard. But i always loved computers and really hated maths so im in bit of a weird situation rn.

[near ocean]

You could do both
20-30h a week sounds like you have plenty of time to spend on hobbies or learning, and if youre already comfortable financially, why would you go get another degree?

[alpine basin]

I am new to Python and know only the basics
what would I need to learn and in what order for cybersecurity? Is it a good idea to learn the basics of another language to better understand programming concepts?

I heard that for ai ypu need to learn advanced math and algorithims so what would be the equivalent for csecurity?

[gritty rivet]

Cybersecurity is its own vast field. Learning programming languages is supplementary to learning security itself

here are ideas about different career paths to focus on https://www.coursera.org/articles/cybersecurity-career-paths

Certifications have some value in the cybersecurity world. CompTIA certs are probably easiest to start with

Yes

[somber swift]

well i need to attend collage in Australia and that mean i have to leave this job here in India. Because its a Government Project and year 5 year they check how much progress is been made in since its start and even if every thing is fine they can still shut it down, thats where my problem starts because here in India private sector is shit you have to work 10-12 hours 6 days a weeks and pay is really low. and i dont want to stuck in that when that occurs. so that why i need advice if should so in IT field in Australia because i heard it pays 120K-150K Annually

[gritty rivet]

I'm not in Australia but that sounds about right. You wouldn't have to work anywhere near 60hs/week there, but cost of living will also be higher.

[velvet fox]

if we do not appear for amazon interview..is it considered as rejcted and 6 months cool off period gets applied or jus that the candidate was not able to come so no cool off period?

[fleet holly]

need help with AioZipStream lib

[crisp jewel]

Hello everyone hru?, I am applying to cornell within the next month and I know that gpa and sat aren't everything but i have a low gpa at 3.6 (with mostly ib hl and ap courses) but a high sat 1570 however in computer science (major) related courses i have 97-100% and gone beyond level of nationals (representing country) in competitions related to this. Do you think cornell will automatically reject me due to low gpa?

[summer roost]

I have no idea, but I'd suggest that it shouldn't influence your behavior either way. If you want to go to that school, you should apply. You should apply to other schools as well, in case they don't accept you.

[haughty oriole]

Hello everyone, would anyone be willing

[crisp jewel]

alright thank you for advice, I already finished everything for the application to that school so there is no harm in not applying and finished everything for 15 others schools so far as well so plenty of backups.

[fleet holly]

[summer roost]

I expect that their admissions process is much less rigid than rejecting every single applicant whose GPA is below 3.7 (or whatever).

[summer roost]

What does that have to do with careers?

[buoyant seal]

The Contractor during the term of this Contract and for three years after the termination of this Contract will not enter into any contractual relationship with the company - End-customer of the Services and not carry out work for the End-customer by passing the Company and will not attempt to communicate directly. The Parties have agreed that for the aim of this Contract “the End-customer” of the Services is considered to be a company for whose benefit the Company gives tasks to the Contractor. The Contractor shall protect the name of the End-customer as confidential information in accordance with Section 6 of this Contract and shall not use this End-customer name in advertising and marketing purposes (including use of this information in his CV).

company body shop included this clause.
Do you think it is acceptable one or not?

on one hand likely hood to encounter ever company end clients is nearly zero
and fine for breaking is relatively low. just 3000 euros + court expenses.

on another hand kind of worried if end clients are going to be ever some big famous companies. Though it will ever happen, it would be happy worry i guess to have.

[fleet holly]

no one helped me in 5 help chats

in 1 day, so I've asked here

[summer roost]

No one will help you here, either, because your question is off topic

[fleet holly]

where I can go for it, what chat

[summer roost]

#python-discussion or maybe #async-and-concurrency

That's mostly typical non-solicitation agreement, to stop you from doing work for some company on behalf of the consulting agency, learning that other company's systems, and then accepting a job at the other company and quitting the consulting agency.

The bit about not including the other company's name on your CV is a bit odd to me. I'd be curious whether that's actually enforceable or not.

I'm guessing section 6 is about non disclosure of confidential information?

[delicate bane]

how come the phrase is 9-5 when work is usually from 8-5

[digital fjord]

At least where I live, 9 AM is the standard start of the working day.

[balmy spade]

My work is usually 0600 to 16:00 so I've no idea!

[gilded valley]

9-5 is the standard contracted hours in the UK

although it's fairly common to do +/- an hour at either end in practice

[shy vine]

Hi

[vapid jay]

What are some entry level roles that have very low bar for entry.

[peak halo]

None. But web development generally has a lower bar than other domains.

[hollow hornet]

If I had a contract like that in front of me in the U.S., I would 100% consult an employment attorney before signing. The laws are pretty different between the U.S. and Europe on some of that stuff, but there is a lot in that contract that wouldn’t be enforceable here.

[buoyant seal]

Good point

[buoyant seal]

It is clearly specified in a contract to work under Cyprus laws though
Despite me being entity not of Cyprus

[hollow hornet]

Yeah, prob best to talk to a lawyer who knows Cyprus law and how those laws are impacted by European treaties

[summer roost]

which parts stand out to you as unenforceable if it were in the US, specifically?

[hollow hornet]

The most noticeable are the length of the term (3 years) and not putting it on your CV

[hollow hornet]

Although the “end customer” thing might fly since you’d still be able to put the name of the contract company. But again, you should get in touch with a lawyer I discuss this. Anything we discuss is purely theoretical

[summer roost]

the not putting it on your CV is a bit weird to me, but I'd actually be surprised to learn that's not enforceable in the US - they're forbidding a particular piece of confidential information (the names of their clients that you worked with) from making it into your CV

but you're definitely right about the term, I missed how long it is while reading earlier.

the advice to talk to an employment attorney is always definitely sound, too.

[delicate bane]

i see, i see

[delicate bane]

me either

[delicate bane]

oof. yeah that +/- hour seems to be more common that i had previously thought

[cursive trellis]

What courses should I take if I'm going for a computer science major?

[vapid jay]

I'd take courses in the security aspect of it

[cursive trellis]

can u give an example?

[vapid jay]

Do any of the courses offered prepare you also for the accompanying certificate such as CompTIA etc?

If so I'd double leverage that because Certs do have their purpose, especially in the beginning of a career.

[twin hollow]

@cursive trelliswhile not strictly necessary (as computer programs are only about advanced math when that kind of application is being built), I would try to go for a strong math background first

[smoky quest]

In general, the more theoretical and fundamental, the longer they will serve you

[pastel thunder]

If i join as data scientist after bachelors for 1 year, then do masters in ML. Will it be as hard as changing job title as it would be if masters wasnt there.

Also what do think if i did:
1 Masters in ML with CS course(wider scope but tag is limited )
2 Do CS with ML oriented course.(interest oriented but Wider scoped tag)

Assume US as country

[gritty rivet]

I would be tempted to do some research on option B to verify whether it's legit or not.

Overall option A sounds least risky by far. I won't repeat what I've said multiple times about the non-compete being a non-issue

[gilded valley]

It seems incredibly difficult to give practical advice wrt B without a lot more information, to the point that it's near pointless asking the question.

[gritty rivet]

No, I would accept the best possible option. An option that exists is better then an option that doesn't

[dark arrow]

<@&831776746206265384>

[gritty rivet]

I mean you don't have the option to take job A and not sign, and you don't know what C will bring

The risk of not passing the exam on B seems much more immediate then the risk that you might leave A for a direct competitor and then face any actual consequences if you do

A lot depends on whether this exam is actually so simple to pass or if they're just telling you that to entrap you. So you need to research to make an informed decision

[analog lily]

Is CS boring?

[gilded valley]

to some people

[bleak kestrel]

whats the difference between software development and game development?

[gilded valley]

in one of them you're developing generic, usually enterprise, software. In the other you're developing games.

[bleak kestrel]

ohhhh i seee alright thanks

[graceful mason]

That's a standard clause in a contract, also the length of the NDA isn't something you should think about since you should never consider disclosing anything about the company (outside of specific legal instances)

[peak halo]

it depends on what you like. I like it. you might or might not.

[slow charm]

Hello everyone. I am new to programming. How can I start a career in programming, can anyone help me please, it would be really helpful

[coarse crag]

programming is broad. you kinda need to define what kind of "programming" you want to do. also, if you're a student, a cs degree is very preferred, it will guide you through the computer science field. cs and programming is different, but cs is the fundamental knowledge you need in order to be able to create effective programs.
so, it's better that you go to college and get a cs degree.

[peak halo]

if you're a young person with no professional experience, you should probably get a CS degree. but if you've been working for a few years, there might be other ways to switch to programming.

[slow charm]

i was working in machine automation for a couple of years

[peak halo]

what degree did you get for that, if any

[slow charm]

now i am trying to change it to software dev

bachelors in engineering specializing in instrumentation and control systems

[peak halo]

alright. is there any programming that you do in your current role? can you ask to do more programming in your current role? would your employer support you in moving to an all-development role elsewhere in the company?

[slow charm]

no I asked the employer but he said that he only has machine automation roles but no programming work. So I am trying to find a decent course online. I have some basic knowledge of python and I know Data structures and Algorithms.....I have some practice on this topic too.

[peak halo]

if the only way to do more programming is to leave your company, and you already have a degree, you might actually benefit from doing a boot camp.

but don't do any data science or AI ones. though I figure you're wanting to switch to general software development.

[coarse crag]

not sure if you've seen this one but this is a really nice roadmap for devs.
https://roadmap.sh/

[slow charm]

Yeah I am trying to get started and gain some experience. Also is it better to do AI initially or after a few years of software experience. I have interest in AI

[peak halo]

people get AI jobs because they know the math and stuff that underpins AI. it often has much less to do with their programming/development skills. and the problem is that it's difficult to be taken seriously as having that prerequisite knowledge without a relevant degree.

though if you work in autonomy currently, you probably have a leg up.

[slow charm]

I had a course in my final year of engineering for AI. It was purely the math part of it and I really liked the work. Is the AI work less code and more math??

[peak halo]

well, the code does the math, so this isn't a dichotomy. but you can't really make informed decisions about what code will solve the problem at hand if you don't understand the math.

[slow charm]

I see. Should I get a developer role first? I mean I am looking to make a career in this domain but I really want to shift to research, specifically AI and I dont know how to get started...

[near ocean]

This also isnt something to be wary of, unless youre making a product to directly compete with them or using their data for any reason

[near ocean]

I also used to be wary of this clause but no company is gonna want to claim my shitty cli app or cummy crud app

[vapid jay]

Cummy crud app xD

Both a and b sounds good.

[near ocean]

B does not sound good to me at all, if you dont pass your exams youre stuck with debt
I would take the low paying job unless you cant survive off of it

[vapid jay]

hey

[trail epoch]

This is a random question but I was looking this up just now and I am now wondering, is my github name of bobshaniqua problematic?

[near ocean]

I don't see anything wild about it, just dont have something stupid as a username especially if youre going to put it on your CV

[trail epoch]

Is it a stupid username?

[near ocean]

Its silly, thats about it, theres nothing inherently offensive about it from what I can tell

[trail epoch]

thanks for the advice

[whole wasp]

Should I negotiate salary over phone or over email cuz the offer expires tomorrow

[lapis wind]

Have you started negotiations already?

[unkempt yacht]

hey guys

I was wondering is freelancing as main job worth it or not ?

[near ocean]

No

[unkempt yacht]

can you elaborate ?

[near ocean]

Its a lot of work to build up a list of regular customers

[sharp rose]

what are some careers that require coding and aren't robotics and software engr.

[unkempt yacht]

let's say I want to work remotely is freelancing my option ?

my only*

[sharp rose]

no its not some jobs allow you to work remotely

@unkempt yacht they are just hard to find

[unkempt yacht]

ohh okay, thanks

[gritty rivet]

It probably depends on what country you're in. Here in the US there are loads of SWE jobs which are fully remote

[delicate bane]

what is wrong with software engineering

[true harness]

lots of physics stuff needs coding, data science, scientific computing things

[honest pivot]

A lot of these jobs are gonna be described as "software engineering", that term encompasses a lot of different things

[true harness]

yeah, it's probably pretty hard to draw a line between any of those

[true harness]

!rule 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[peak halo]

!warn 959692740298436678 Advertising is prohibited. This is clearly stated in the rules that you agreed to upon joining the server.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @vapid jay.

[whole wasp]

I’m at the stage of the interview process where they have invited me to come meet the team in person

I am hoping I can get an offer can I assume at this stage I should get one?

[peak halo]

How many interviews have you had for this position?

[gritty rivet]

Every interview process is different, but at some point some interview is the last one. If you're unclear how their process works or what their intent is, just ask. They know, we don't

[whole wasp]

A call and a round about an hour video

[vapid jay]

only one who dont get helped 😦

[peak halo]

This is the career discussion channel. Please make sure all your messages are about that.

[vapid jay]

I just saw a job posting for a full stack developer with a MS in AI/ml related for 45k a year. 3 years of experience required too

[ivory sluice]

that's terrible. US?

[cursive trellis]

hello this is tech support

[delicate bane]

i feel like its way too low to be US

even if its super underpaid

[woeful spruce]

I signed one of those for my current job. I have a hard time believing they could enforce it. Those are usually enforceable for employees who have access to very valuable and confidential market info that could really harm the company if a competitor knew about it.

I also need to apparently let them know if I get a side gig or invent something 😂

[summer roost]

whether they can enforce it or not, it's very unlikely that they'd even bother to try unless you're relatively senior level

[sacred shore]

$45K in my country is the opposite, it's actually too much, the average salary here is $18,377, if you're lucky you can get $25K as a senior after few years

[vapid jay]

Hi, I'm looking for a open source project/team to join to learn while doing and contributing. Does anybody know a project/someone that would like my help or where I can meet such people?

I'm a python newb but with 10y work experience mainly at a company developing POS software and apps as a tester/consultant/internal fixer. I'm proficient in sql and databases, do a lot of backend testing and troubleshooting of our apis hosted in azure service fabric and also happened to become the product owner of our electron/react apps.

So my idea is to contribute by testing, db stuff and project management type of tasks but expanding this to code reviewing and contributing as I gain experience with the product.

I've started doing some freelance work for webshops by making interfaces in python between platforms and extracting data to my own dbs for reporting and stuff but I feel like I miss the experience and people to learn from

Absolutely not looking for paid work but for a passionate team working on something they care about.

[near remnant]

Yeah dude, it sucks. Also this is just for an internship, so it sucks even more.

[lapis wind]

it can happen, not sure i'd say it's super common

but it's definitely not beyond reason that a interviewer may find you unsuitable for a given role but thing you'd be good for another role.

[tidal gazelle]

How much can software dev interns make? If I were to be specific, in Australia

[vapid jay]

Currently relearning python and about to start learning SQL . I’m aiming to become a data analyst or data scientist. But so far I’m becoming intimated because a lot of job listings are saying minimum requirement is 4 year degree in computer science or 3 years minimum experience

[buoyant seal]

sounds generous to me. in my market to my job roles usually requirements of 3 years of minimum experience + preferably having CS degree
that they are willing to accept CS degree fresh graduates is generous

[buoyant seal]

anyway, data scientist role is usually always involving having degree in this case it is probably generous that they offer to take people without degree, just with job experience
probably because after 3 years it is kind of not mattering if degree is present or not. Or at least less matters

[vapid jay]

What about data analyst?

[buoyant seal]

i thought data analyst, is basically data scientist under different name i can be wrong though.

[gilded valley]

No, not at all

Data analyst is working with generally pretty clean pretty structure data to present basic insights to business stakeholders

[vapid jay]

I’m currently not able to go back to school at all. But I’m almost at comfortable level where I feel comfortable

[gilded valley]

Do you have a degree?

[vapid jay]

No unfortunately I almost finished my degree in Graphic Arts/communication design

[buoyant seal]

i thought that's at least half of data science stuff
working with data, finding models in it, drawing graphics and presenting to others

[gilded valley]

No degree means it will be very difficult to find anything as a data analyst

[gilded valley]

It's like the difference between systems administrator and dev ops, or ux designer and front-end developer

Data analysts use Excel without being laughed at, data scientists less so

[vapid jay]

😓 man my fault for falling for the advertisement of getting into this field was just learning learning code/doing boot camps

[buoyant seal]

oh. So data analysts = data science minus programming? (if we remove posibility of extensive macrossing/semi programming through formulas in excel xD)

[vapid jay]

I did find a job listing that just wanted efficiency in Excel and doesn’t say anything about a degree