Yeah, DNS protection
#ot1-perplexing-regexing
lime maple
Lol
lime maple
No way
graceful basin
there were a lot fewer internet devices back then
vapid nymph
bruh how to rewrite git history
graceful basin
rebase is generally the way
vapid nymph
basically i have a branch and i need to rename the first commit
wraith hound
Or you can screw it up with git push -u origin <branch> --force (don't do this)
graceful basin
that doesn't do anything until you actually rebase changes
vapid nymph
oh good
graceful basin
and yes, you have to force push if you change history
can't push 2 incompatible histories after all, that makes no sense
vapid nymph
i have this
and need to rename that first commit
like uhm
i hate it
but is there a way to change just that one and not the others?
tardy rain
Looks fine tbh
vapid nymph
meh this should just be squash merged
graceful basin
yeah, I wouldn't bother for that, maybe just as an experiment
wraith hound
Word of advice: If you're gonna screw with git, screw it up on your own repo first
vapid nymph
other word of advice: I don't care with this repo since I already screwed up twice
lol
wraith hound
joe + devops + writing = essay that makes you smarter
bleak lintel
so, Traefik is running of one of Node A, B or C
wraith hound
Linode is a VPS service like DigitalOcean
bleak lintel
so if the request gets forwarded to Node A and Traefik runs on Node B then we need to call Node B to perform the request
Calico creates a network link between all three hosts, it's a mesh network
so node A can talk to B and C, B to A and C and so on etc etc
wraith hound
PyDis has so much going on in the background, it's pretty cool
bleak lintel
so that services on node A can talk to services on node B as if they were on the same machien
think like accessing an IP over your local network
traefik is used to forward each incoming request to the correct service
plucky ridge
That logo for it is amazing
bleak lintel
we don't want to create several IPs for each service, like paste, site, grafana, etc.
we want one load balancer under which all our services can be hit
so traefik looks at incoming requests and maintains a phone book of where each record should go
soooo
one sec
vapid nymph
traefik is used to forward each incoming request to the correct service
which it does based on the host header!
right?
bleak lintel
bleak lintel
which it does based on the host header!
sometimes
but
it actually is smart!!!
and figures it out before the host header
so okay, let's digress into TLS for a second
wraith hound
The domain?
bleak lintel
we've not got a HTTP connection open yet, so no headers have been transferred
so that Host header that @vapid nymph mentions doesn't work
(Host usually contains pythondiscord.com)
the server needs to present the right certificate for the domain before the HTTP transaction has started
and it's thanks to a nifty little thing called SNI that it works
vapid nymph
(Host usually contains `pythondiscord.com`)
(but can contain the subdomain as well right?)
bleak lintel
SNI, or Server Name Indicator, is a component of a TLS ClientHello message (you opening a connection to the server)
bleak lintel
(but can contain the subdomain as well right?)
yes
hahaha
alright
so
TLS is transport layer security
when you access a website over HTTPS, you are using TLS
vapid nymph
certificate is SSL which verifies that you are indeed yourself
bleak lintel
Hypertext Transfer Protocol Secure
so, TLS just encrypts connections between you and a server, yeah?
i'm gonna skip over SNI and revisit that in a second
so, a certificate is used to verify that the server you are talking to is indeed a server
for example, I have the certificates for pythondiscord.com meaning that when I serve pythondiscord.com your browser can verify I am the one authorised to do so
certificates are signed by trusted authorities which are hardcoded into your browser, so your browser knows which certificates to trust
think of it like a college diploma, but the college is a certificate authority and instead of your name it's the domain
bleak lintel
here are the certs for pythondiscord.com
SSL is an old version of TLS
secure socket layer
SSL is deprecated and not accepted
anyway, so now we've covered what TLS is, how it ties into HTTPS and how certificates work, right?
so, let's take a brief look at SNI
we host all our domains off a single server, meaning that we serve a different certificate for every web property, e.g. paste.pythondiscord.com, pythondiscord.com, stats.pythondiscord.com
when you open a connection to those, the server needs to know which certificate you want before it can open a TLS tunnel
so, to do that a little bit of data goes in your TLS hello, it's called an SNI
subject name indicator
or server name indication
whatever
so, that is a little bit of data before the TLS connection is encrypted that lets the server pull the right certificate out and send it
that means that you can serve multiple web properties with different domains off the same server
yeah, this is the step where it opens the connection to the server
but tell me, do you see any security flaws with SNI?
vapid nymph
don't even get into cnames yet
vapid nymph
but tell me, do you see any security flaws with SNI?
yeah it doesn't have to match the tls
bleak lintel
nope
the flaw is that SNI is sent unencrypted
before the TLS happens
hahah
yeah, so the problem is
people often say that HTTPS means people can't see which domains you are looking at, just the IPs
but due to SNI they very much can see the exact domain, in fact ISPs do collect that and in places like China they use SNI in the Great Firewall to block off it
and now we're kind of brought up to date, because things are changing right now
yep yep yeep!
SNI is being phased out, in favour of ECH, ECH stands for Encrypted Client Hello, and to sum it up briefly that means that the TLS connection from finish to end, there is no exposure of SNI or other information
graceful basin
how hard would it be to handroll TLS in an insecure way
bleak lintel
ECH works off keys stored in the DNS, and in fact pythondiscord.com is already compatible with ESNI!! (which is the stage before ECH where the SNI was encrypted)
graceful basin
implement instead of using a library
bleak lintel
we'll probably be ready to go with ECH as soon as it enters general use
graceful basin
as with everything that even remotely touches security, you should never ever write your own
vapid nymph
but due to SNI they very much can see the exact domain, in fact ISPs do collect ...
hm, what about with cloudfare warp. Do you know if they do anything to block your ip at all?
bleak lintel
well, right now the clienthello is unencrypted
so the SNI is exposed, becausse the SNI is in the clienthello
ECH will use encryption for that step meaning that you can't have SNI and other information exposed
the connection will basically be encrypted from step 1
vapid nymph
as with everything that even remotely touches security, you should never ever wr...
well. Support the people who already do it.
Don't do security as a side gig.
Either go all in or not, but don't work on it in your spare time
graceful basin
pretty much
bleak lintel
hm, what about with cloudfare warp. Do you know if they do anything to block you...
yes, cloudflare warp will hide your SNI because it's a VPN, though since ECH is not in production the SNI from Cloudflare --> end site will probably still be unencrypted
graceful basin
it is impossible to write it correctly on the first try, you need peers and some auditing stuff to ensure it is at least usable
bleak lintel
I'm going to hop for dinner, but lmk if you've got any questions on #ot1-perplexing-regexing message or around the stuff above 🙂
vapid nymph
yes, cloudflare warp will hide your SNI because it's a VPN, though since ECH is ...
actually no
just partially hides it
vapid nymph
if i go to duckduckgo.com with a search asking what my ip is, its 8.6.1.4
bleak lintel
yes
vapid nymph
or whatever
bleak lintel
yep
vapid nymph
if i go to a different site its not
bleak lintel
yeah
vapid nymph
its my actual ip
vapid nymph
i think its if they're on the cloudflare network they get the actual ip
bleak lintel
warp should not expose your legit IP
vapid nymph
if they aren't they don't
vapid nymph
warp should not expose your legit IP
it does
bleak lintel
I haven't heard of that, I don't think it does
bleak lintel
I'll look into this after dinner, might call on a CF friend
modern haven
joe you are really active today lol
bleak lintel
hahahahaha
bleak lintel
balancing it out for @harsh tundra
modern haven
lmao
vapid nymph
lol
lime maple
Lol
rough sapphire
if joe is gonna answer all these I'm all ears too.
modern haven
- some shit to do with IP's and servers and stuff. That answer it?
rough sapphire
yeah 1 is simple.
graceful basin
give joe time
red elm
Why is there a Discord Server for a snake????
bleak lintel
How does a DNS Lookup work?
So, DNS is a question-answer protocol for resolving domain names into records, most usually A records which signify an IP. First your query starts at 1 of the 13 root name servers, if you ask for paste.pythondiscord.com first you go to the root servers and ask "which nameserver handles com lookups?", the root server then replies with the com nameserver, then you go to the com nameserver and ask "which nameserver handles pythondiscord.com?", which in our case is Cloudflare. Next you hit the Cloudflare nameserver and ask "where can I find paste.pythondiscord.com" and that's where you get an IP which you then use to visit. Most of this is totally abstracted away, if you use a public resolver like 1.1.1.1 or 8.8.8.8 then you only do one query and then the resolver does all the hops for you BUT! there is a neat tool at https://dns-lookup.jvns.ca/trace.html#pythondiscord.com which will actually take you through the whole request process. DNS queries are made up of questions (I want this domain), answers (here is this domains IP) and additional (I don't have this domain, but ask here, they might!)
red elm
What do you mean? Python is a snake. Why do you need a Discord Server for that?
I'm joking. I know Python
But I don't know how to work with it.
I don't know how it works?
bleak lintel
What does Cloudfare do...? It has a cache of some sorts by looking at the diagram.
Cloudflare provides a cache/ddos/optimisation platform which brings your servers closer to your users. When you visit pythondiscord.com you're directed to an IP which is geographically close to you (see which one at https://pythondiscord.com/cdn-cgi/trace, the colo field is the name of the nearest airport to the datacenter you hit, I hit MAN which is Manchester). Cloudflare then delivers the request to the origin IP, so in our case the Linode load balancer. It also mitigates DDoS traffic to prevent it from hitting Linode and applies caching so that if you visit pythondiscord.com you might get a cached version of the page served from a geographically closer server, instead of having to head to frankfurt. https://www.cloudflare.com/en-gb/learning/what-is-cloudflare/ has some good details.
nameserver is any server that handles DNS queries. so the Cloudflare nameserver answers for Cloudflare domains like pythondiscord.com, the com nameserver answers for com domains and so on.
What is the purpose of this CF cache?
Brings content delivered closer to you. If I hit pythondiscord.com the edge server which is close to you will store it for a few hours, if anyone else hits it it will deliver that content instead of trekking to the origin.
rough sapphire
**What is the purpose of this CF cache?**
Brings content delivered closer to you...
what if content changes? how does that work?
bleak lintel
How does a load balancer actually know which node has low traffic?
It's as simple as saying "okay there are 5 open connections to this node and 3 to the other, so I'll forward it to the other". Load balancers are smart! There are various methods as well as just congestion such as round robin which does A, B, C, A, B, C and so on and also just pure random.
rough sapphire
that is obvious but i mean how did cache server findout that data has changed.
yeah but joe said its hours
bleak lintel
what if content changes? how does that work?
that's why the content has a time-to-live, generally for static resources hours is fine because taking a few hours is fine. Cloudflare allow you to empty the cache upon request as well if you need to reset cache quickly.
graceful basin
cloudflare has a toggle called development mode which turns the cache off temporarily
rough sapphire
cloudflare has a toggle called development mode which turns the cache off tempor...
ah i see. makes sense.
bleak lintel
there are smarter ways such as cachebusters which is where you can update the URL fetched everytime you build a new one, therefore resetting cache
so I might have ```html
<script src="/myscript?v=a34f23ad"></script>
so then that file + hash gets stored
rough sapphire
yeah i think builds in react do same.
harsh tundra
balancing it out for <@!124812862567743488>
yass. talk with us moooore ❤️
rough sapphire
they put this long hash at the end to handle cashing
bleak lintel
So Traefik runs on a single node and then forwards the request?
Yep, Traefik right now runs on one of our nodes, picked randomly when we schedule the deployment, eventually I might set up Traefik on every node so each node can answer queries.
yep, they can run on any node
[So Traefik runs on a single node and then forwards the request?] To where?
To the service running, so I might tell Traefik to forward pythondiscord.com requests to our internal service called site. Traefik is the border between the internet and our internal services.
yep
bleak lintel
**[So Traefik runs on a single node and then forwards the request?] To where?**
...
a bit of a simplified explanation on this: I could run django on port 3000 and then tell traefik to fetch from port 3000. In production we not only use different ports but every service gets an IP in the 10.0. 0.0/8 private range to be accessed over.
so 10.10.2.3 might be Python Discord site, and Traefik forwards there (actually over DNS! we run a DNS server in the cluster to resolve domains like site.default.svc.cluster.local to their in-cluster IP, meaning we don't have to hardcode IPs anywhere)
Does each service run on a different node?
Yes, when we create a deployment of a pod/container Kubernetes finds a node that can host that service (we tell kubernetes a rough estimate of how many resources it needs).
rough sapphire
.bm 841383256938250310
bleak lintel
it's the exact same as the public internet, but inside our cluster, instead of resolving pythondiscord.com to a public IP we're resolving an internal domain to an internal IP
each service gets an IP so since we can run a DNS server each service can get it's own domain record as well
the domains are in the format {service}.{namespace}.svc.cluster.local and can be accessed from any pod on any node
yes, a pod is a single deployment within a cluster
so python discord site, hastebin, stats, even traefik, are all pods
What is mTLS?
mTLS stands for mutual TLS. Think about how regular TLS works where the server presents a certificate and the client verifies that it's legitimate. mTLS extends on this by not only having the server show a certificate but the client as well, so the server goes "I am pythondiscord.com, here is my certificate" and the client goes "I am Cloudflare, here is my certificate". We've preloaded the Cloudflare certificate so we can verify it very easily. It's effectively a form of authentication.
Where else can the request to Traefik come from apart from CF?
Other than when we're debugging stuff, nowhere. mTLS locks it down so that only Cloudflare or myself can ever reach Traefik and trigger a request.
How does Traefik apply the middleware, isn't that Django's job?
Django has middleware, but a different type of middleware. Some examples of the middleware we do at Traefik's side is things like redirecting git.pydis.com to our github page, verifying that a user has passed through Cloudflare Access and a few other things like applying security headers. We use them since we can apply configuration to web properties very easily.
Django middleware is Django specific, Traefik middleware can run across all ingressing web traffic is the TL;DR
What is meant by "proxied service"
The service we're communicating with, so the django site/hastebin/public stats in the pod is the proxied service, Traefik and Cloudflare are proxies and you are the client.
rough sapphire
**What is mTLS?**
mTLS stands for mutual TLS. Think about how regular TLS works ...
any reliable source to read more about this? also i mean server has it all stored right? or servers follow some automated task to generate new time by time. or is it done manually?
bleak lintel
any reliable source to read more about this? also i mean server has it all store...
the blurb bit there goes into a bit
rough sapphire
makes sense. but again, the certificates, they get auto generated?
on server side
bleak lintel
the certificates for pythondiscord.com are auto-generated, yeah
Traefik generates wildcard certs for *.pythondiscord.com
as for the client cert, Cloudflare provides one which we import
rough sapphire
.bm 841386502134300734
ah i see so it's basically user dependent. some may be doing manually too.
.bm 841386789716492298
bleak lintel
yep, you can manually do it, but LetsEncrypt uses short expiry times to encourage automation of certificate renewal
Why can't you just do pythondiscord.com/paste instead of paste.pythondiscord.com
If we wanted to, we probably could, it's just easier for users to use subdomains as opposed to paths under our root domain, and it's easier to configure subdomains as well.
if you have some understanding of docker and want to get more into CI/CD/DevOps then yes
ECH works off what "keys stored in the DNS"?
ECH is switching to a record type called HTTPS instead of using A records. In this HTTPS record type there is not only an IP but a public key. When the client connects to the server it can encrypt that first payload with the public key it found in the DNS, meaing that the whole transaction is encrypted.
so you'll lookup the HTTPS record of pythondiscord.com, get back an IPv4, an IPv6 and a public key in addition
yes 🙂
What does ESNI have that SNI doesn't?
It's encrypted 😄. ESNI was an implementation before ECH which looked up the TXT (text) record on a domain located at _esni.pythondiscord.com or similar.
Once it had the value of this domain it did the exact same as the HTTPS record key and encrypted just the SNI field in the ClientHello (as opposed to ECH which encrypts the whole packet).
so, here is a regular TLS handshake
you can see SNI is before encryption begins in that ClientHello
yep
okay so
then this is ESNI
wait
no
this is ESNI
you can see the ClientHello is still unencrypted, but the SNI is
and then here is ECH
the implementation of ECH is a bit different from what you'd expect, because it's trying to maintain back compatibility with routers
but that ClientHello inner where sensitive information is located is encrypted using that key in the HTTPS record
What is CF "warp"?
https://blog.cloudflare.com/1111-warp-better-vpn/
WARP is Cloudflare's take on a VPN, built from the ground up and encrypts all payloads to the Cloudflare Edge
lol
you're welcome
let me know if anyone has further questions, questions about my answers are also happy to be answered, it's fun stuff 🙂
rough sapphire
thanks a lot joe.!
bleak lintel
no problem 🙂
small fossil
Joe why my server slow
bleak lintel
Joe why my server slow
not enough golang
small fossil
not enough golang
more like too much LOL
small fossil
graceful basin
too much state
small fossil
where has my bloblul gone
small fossil
basically, you get a pane of glass
bleak lintel
lmfao
small fossil
and you hit it with a hammer
and you get these shards of glass that you then throw at your servers
until they work
bleak lintel
well, as an abstraction, say I have 1,000 requests coming in per second, sharding would be directing these requests to several instances of a service to prevent a single instance being overloaded
a goodish example is Discord, where when you reach a certain number of servers they make you run multiple connections to the websocket and then split up different servers into different socket connnections
hahahaha
enjoyy
small fossil
ah yes latency
bleak lintel
lol
small fossil
I swear that postman's added latency though is poop
Like postman reads 800
then you do the same from the browser
and get 200ms
bleak lintel
latency moment
bleak lintel
I swear that postman's added latency though is poop
this is why we use curl
bleak lintel
lmfao
small fossil
this is the only problem with our setup
is when it's not being used
it goes quite cold n slow
which for development is fine and all but it makes bench testing a nightmare
small fossil
wait @bleak lintel What month were you born?
bleak lintel
wait <@!165023948638126080> What month were you born?
aug
small fossil
Am the elder
harsh tundra
I feel old with so many teens here in chat. it reminds me I'm no longer a teen :c
bleak lintel
lul
harsh tundra
I miss my high school days :c
rich moon
when u realize ur becoming a boomer
harsh tundra
I'm not that old
but I don't even remember I'm 25 unless I think... or see people here .-.
honest star
<:PES_LMAO:501478323088654347>
? Is this meant to ridicule the user?
honest star
then what are you trying to say?
brisk spoke
that it's funny he said he was a dev but didn't know what the err was
honest star
so... yes to making fun of the user then?
brisk spoke
idek 
honest star
let's not make fun of people for not knowing stuff, okay?
brisk spoke
yeah, my b
vapid nymph
@bleak lintelcf update?
royal lakeBOT
bleak lintel
hmmm
the update was
that shouldn't happen
lol
and to open a post on https://community.cloudflare.com/ if it does
vapid nymph
that shouldn't happen
so basically cloudflare warp is a vpn.
bleak lintel
yes
vapid nymph
in your own opinion from what you were told, comparable to some of the paid ones?
vapid nymph
welp time to make an issue
huh
on second thought
i need to check smth
how to do a tracert?
uh
with tracert LOL
gg
traces the route from you to the place
uh joe can you help me with this for a moment
harsh tundra
it literally pings with "discard me after x steps" going from 1 to 30 (by default)
[normally this field is so that undelivered packets do not trash the connection by eventually being dropped]
this means 1st jump goes back to you with "oh, sorry, I didn't reach the end result",
then with other ping packet it passes but 2nd jump replied that it didn't deliver...
with 3rd ping it gets passed by first 2 but 3rd one replies...
and so on until you find the correct server and it correctly returns the ping, or until you hit the limit of 30 jumps
vapid nymph
OH MY GOD LOL
i was so confused for a moment
but https://www.whatismyip.com/ gives my actual ip
bleak lintel
tracert is so cool
vapid nymph
wtf
how can i see my actual public ip
navigating to a bunch of sites i get 3 different ips
harsh tundra
lol. google just showed you suggestion from its search results... which was scrapped by google bot, of course, so the ip is its XD
if you're behind NAT, then no
vapid nymph
lol. google just showed you suggestion from its search results... which was scra...
yeah
although i'm curious what my own device is
vapid nymph
if you're behind NAT, then no
i'm 99% sure im not on nat
comcast
yes
actually no
harsh tundra
NAT is the private network to one public ip thing
vapid nymph
yea ;-;
harsh tundra
so if you have wifi at home and can connect with multiple devices, then you're behind NAT and your router translates the stuff between private subnet it created for you and its public address
vapid nymph
if you're behind NAT, then no
ohhhh
i thought you meant the nat nat
the one where the ISP puts you on their subnet
not actually called that
so you don't have a public ip address and are part of comcast's network
internet service provider
what's the linux equal?
harsh tundra
so you don't have a public ip address and are part of comcast's network
it's basically that for router its "public" address is in fact in another private network
and only when you go out of the ISP's NAT you have one public address with hundreds of other people
vapid nymph
yeah
vapid nymph
and only when you go out of the ISP's NAT you have one public address with hundr...
and this is why IP bans SUCK
harsh tundra
I think I have this kind of stuff with one of my ISPs because tracert shows some private addresses at further steps... or was it only 2nd step which is still our router? I don't remember XD
vapid nymph
its not afaik
vapid nymph
i go to a site
it says an ip that isn't my own
i do a no cache refresh with ctrl f5
harsh tundra
it's from private range
vapid nymph
and now its my own ip 73.xxxx
vapid nymph
it's from private range
right but
harsh tundra
it shouldn't be visible anywhere outside that subnet
vapid nymph
frozen coral
vapid nymph
yeah that's actually not my home ip
i think that ip is on the cloudflare internal network and that website probably is too which is why it happens
twilit shore
people can’t do anything with ur ip, right?
vapid nymph
it is
so the 172.xxxx is a cloudflare internal ip
i think that's genius
8.6.144.188 is an outbound facing cloudflare ip
the problem is my 73.xxxxx my ip from comcast is publicly exposed to a few sites
https://ipchicken.com/ is somehow getting it
trail juniper
people can’t do anything with ur ip, right?
Depending on the setup you have, they can track your location. Beyond that, it's possible for an attacker to look for security holes in your system, so it's best to not share your IP if you can avoid it
twilit shore
Depending on the setup you have, they can track your location. Beyond that, it's...
How specific can they find ur location? like an address on google maps specific?
trail juniper
More general location, so maybe like city or area, but it highly depends on your setup
Also, it depends on where you live. If you get a general location in Antarctica, well there are only so many places with internet there
vapid nymph
@bleak lintelso you think i should report cloudflare exposing me?
bleak lintel
<@!165023948638126080>so you think i should report cloudflare exposing me?
I'd open a community forum post about it
bleak lintel
uhh either is good
vapid nymph
huh
aside from not being able to choose a country
i think cloudflare warp > other vpns
oh and occasionally leaking ur ip address
harsh tundra
How specific can they find ur location? like an address on google maps specific?
it depends on how your ISP has the addresses arranged
I had dynamic IPs located at whole region, I had static public ip pointing to the ISPs office (local, city ISP), I had static ip at my high school dorm (Nicolas Copernicus University in Toruń, Poland, apparently has too many public addresses...) pointing at some university terrains... but my friend's server in one faculty had almost correct location? or was it that school servers were pointing at this faculty? I don't remember if both are correct
harsh tundra
<@!165023948638126080>so you think i should report cloudflare exposing me?
how does it expose you?
vapid nymph
https://ipchicken.com/ is somehow getting it
.
that's showing my actual ip address
even after no cache refreshes
it shows the cloudflare ip
then it shows mine
same with https://icanhazip.com/
harsh tundra
and you're behind some cloudflare vpn?
harsh tundra
weird shit
vapid nymph
aside from this and not being able to choose server location i would say its the best vpn lol
harsh tundra
although I've seen weirder
some online shop started bugging the cart for me as I was browsing it and adding stuff for the future but not buying it yet
so since it was bugging and the cart's state changed from tab to tab, from url to url...
I tried clearing the cookies and stuff, but something was still off, it was still weird
so I opened an incognito tab
and it still sometimes had my cart history, sometimes part of it 😮
then I tried a different browser, on the same computer... and same shit
I don't want to know how they kept user sessions - IP based or what? but at the same time it somehow kept multiple sessions for me and switched between them?
it's a shame because after going through covid I wanted to buy some oil diffuser for mum, she loves nice smells and stuff, and this website had the best designs, tbh EDIT: checked the website and it doesn't seem bugged anymore but the design I was browsing then is sold out atm, so I won't test the sessions again, lol
vapid nymph
and it still sometimes had my cart history, sometimes part of it 😮
Wtf lol
U must be on a NAT then
A ISP NAT
harsh tundra
"u must be"
it was both my carts, just from different days. I often browse shops and add things but then buy after a few days
so when it showed empty cart, I went on to add the things again... but during that, it started sometimes showing my old full cart and sometimes the new partial one
vapid nymph
Wild
latent scaffold
I think I'm kind of lucky it's nearly impossible to get my real location by IP
Our internet comes from a different city
gritty zinc
They aren't alternatives
How about JavaScript? 😛
Geez, I hate Node.js...
Why not use JavaScript instead?
perfectly normal conversation between human beings
tardy rain
Imagine considering php in the current year
lunar crescent
tardy rain
I thought php was only a thing for legacy reasons now
Are people actually considering building new stuff on php?
misty dew
I thought php was only a thing for legacy reasons now
nope, some demonic tribes out there actually use it
wraith hound
PHP is used a lot cause Laravel
wraith hound
But there are now Laravel alternatives in js
tardy rain
Heh
For webdev my uni did JSP
And fucking tomcat
I wanted to scoop my eyes out with a spoon
wraith hound
Oh
latent scaffold
I don't
lime maple
I don't trust stairs because they are always up to something
latent scaffold
I don't trust stairs because they are always up to something
as can be said for just about everything in existence
lime maple
I found that online
latent scaffold
what about the sky? the clouds? buildings? your TV?
lime maple
Lol
lime maple
what about the sky? the clouds? buildings? your TV?
Yeah they can be too
latent scaffold
me? my cat? this table?
latent scaffold
no
lime maple
Ok i should stop with the dad joke
latent scaffold
no
edgy crest
inland wolf
same
lime maple
Heheh
inland wolf
ok
lime maple
The Day of the Programmer is an international professional day that is celebrated on the 256th (hexadecimal 100th, or the 28th) day of each year (September 13 during common years and on September 12 in leap years). It is officially recognized in Russia.[1][2]
inland wolf
\t*
lime maple
Did you know it before?
inland wolf
officially recognized in russia
last mantle
same
lime maple
It should be global
latent scaffold
`\n{` is cringe
You've angered the C programmers
edgy crest
solid pollen
!mute @rough sapphire
royal lakeBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @rough sapphire until 2021-05-11 08:12 (59 minutes and 59 seconds).
solid pollen
!warn 548876479337857025 Please keep it appropriate
royal lakeBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @rough sapphire.
solid pollen
!unmute @rough sapphire
royal lakeBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: pardoned infraction mute for @rough sapphire.
rough sapphire
That message was for the group of friends 
raven birch
i wake up today, open up my laptop, and one half of the space key is harder to press down and the spacebar doesn't work when pressed from the side >_<
Has anyone ever experienced anything similar, or know of some sort of solution?
Thanks in advance.
(The space key isn't "clicky" from the right side and i can feel some slight resistance, I have to "clack" it quite hard to get an input)
topaz aurora
@raven birch Check for debris/clean it out maybe?
raven birch
<@!650459420635168769> Check for debris/clean it out maybe?
I know this sounds stupid, but I have no idea how to...
I've never tinkered with hardware as such, always been working with software
and I have no idea where to even begin with this laptop, other than completely dismantling it and risking breaking something
latent scaffold
oh. laptop... cleaning the keyboard isn't going to be very easy
Most laptops don't have a straight-forward way of cleaning the keyboard
Most I can suggest is looking through manual, maybe seeing about separating the keyboard and cleaning it separately or just using compressed air or something
iirc removing the keys is not a good idea because putting them back isn't going to be trivial
mellow spire
https://asciinema.org/a/Ph4V7hwFkdQZYkdSm7slAwkle 🙃 this is awesome
both of them
piston-cli recording with asciinema
acoustic moss
poggers
lucid moon
can you guys help me fix these corrupted .fla files
solid pollen
!warn @lucid moon you have just been asked to not bypass our filters using mediafire
royal lakeBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied warning to @lucid moon.
inland wolf
sad
lucid moon
i just wanted help
ancient minnow
Hey
Why would one prefer XOR EAX, EAX above MOV EAX, 0
Is the xor instruction faster than mov?
graceful basin
as far as I know, yes
ancient minnow
Ohh okay ty
quick ledge
https://asciinema.org/a/Ph4V7hwFkdQZYkdSm7slAwkle 🙃 this is awesome
that is pretty cool
last mantle
yeah
mellow spire
that is pretty cool
the asciinema or piston-cli? 
acoustic moss
yes
quick ledge
yes
wraith hound
yes indeed
twin charm
yo wtf the reactions look cringe too
mellow spire
the reactions which you give are cringe
and pings which are given to others are cringe
twin charm
the reactions which you give are cringe
bruh.
rough sapphire
Wow
rough sapphire
Rounded corners
mellow spire
looks weird
latent scaffold
They were always rounded
rough sapphire
You sure?
mellow spire
looks ok
quick ledge
Looks like bold text 
carmine niche
`\n{` is cringe
YOU'RE CRINGE
edgy crest
inland wolf
Rounded corners
they were always rounded
acoustic moss
lol
rough sapphire
This seems like a "designer had to justify their pay" type of deal
Because the new design doesn't seem very necessary and it doesn't look good either
vapid nymph
This seems like a "designer had to justify their pay" type of deal
ARE YOU SURE
old:
new:
vapid nymph
what the ever loving fuck is that
vapid nymph
inland wolf
especially the font
vapid nymph
explain that to me
vapid nymph
DiSCORD
last mantle
ikr
inland wolf
trumpet monster
tardy rain
Discord is a corpo now, this is what current corpo branding looks like
Idk why yall surprised
wraith hound
CRINGE
vapid nymph
Discord is a corpo now, this is what current corpo branding looks like
I mean
normal corps are not that bad
DiScord is just being really really really bad
rough sapphire
ARE YOU SURE
Oh, I don't mean that positively
vapid nymph
rough sapphire
It looks uglier than the old design
vapid nymph
we bouta get swarmed by dumb kids I was a dumb kid too but still
vapid nymph
I hate this I hate this I hate this
DiScord: ImAgine A PlaCe
sterile sapphire
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/110373943822540800/837003763775701043/202...
"This is how it happened, this is how Discord died."
vapid nymph
AnYwaYs tHis seRver shoUld probablY rebrand
they need their new fonts and ugly colors
rough sapphire
I agree though that this seems pretty corpo
wraith hound
Screw Discord's rebranding
inland wolf
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/110373943822540800/837003763775701043/202...
where did u get it
vapid nymph
rough sapphire
Can you link it?
inland wolf
and is this a leak or somethin?
plucky ridge
Screw Discord's rebranding
We'll forget about it in a week or two
vapid nymph
literally any post
plucky ridge
Just is what it is
wraith hound
We'll forget about it in a week or two
The new logo is ugly though
vapid nymph
We'll forget about it in a week or two
i actually doubt it
wraith hound
The colors are fine
vapid nymph
at minimum one month
vapid nymph
I'm not even seeing it
ur on stable give it 2 days
plucky ridge
Like it's for some reason not updated on mine
inland wolf
damn
plucky ridge
Oh right right
wraith hound
This logo
vapid nymph
may 13th is their birthday
verbal glen
why does reddit always hate redesigns lol
vapid nymph
@rough sapphire the most informative post https://www.reddit.com/r/discordapp/comments/n9on8q/lets_discuss_the_new_discord_branding/
oof
verbal glen
first the reddit redesign then spotify then discord
tardy rain
Idk i like that blueish colour
vapid nymph
it celebrates discord's bday with blurple
tardy rain
Whats it called
vapid nymph
NOT THIS YEAR
vapid nymph
Whats it called
blurple new probably
tardy rain
Lmao
vapid nymph
tardy rain
Looks good, vibrant blue
vapid nymph
Looks good, vibrant blue
would be better if everything agreed with it
the reply accent color is different on mobile and not
verbal glen
nah the got rid of blurple
vapid nymph
@plucky ridge tell me, how are we gonna forget this wumpus replacement?
wraith hound
THEY REMOVED WUMPUS?
If they did, UNFORGIVABLE
inland wolf
agree
rough sapphire
first the reddit redesign then spotify then discord
To be fair, new Reddit is not that bad, although old Reddit is better
plucky ridge
<@!98195144192331776> tell me, how are we gonna forget this wumpus replacement?
Heavy drinking
vapid nymph
i have so much to say about that and nothing that i can say in a under 18 server
but why the fuck does it have teeth
inland wolf
goddamn that font looks shit
plucky ridge
I'm glad you're able to restrain yourself
wraith hound
i have so much to say about that and nothing that i can say in a under 18 server
… Aren't you under 18?
inland wolf
lol
verbal glen
vapid nymph
… Aren't you under 18?
yeah so
verbal glen
wumpus is still here
vapid nymph
OH MY GOD ITS BLURPLE
vapid nymph
but fwiw
wraith hound
Rise Wumpus, the supreme lord of blurple
wraith hound
Screw Clyde
vapid nymph
you paid for it to have it for the entirety of your account
so those will not be going away
@wraith hound ur pfp is out of date
wrong blurple
wraith hound
We must make Project Blurple v2
vapid nymph
wraith hound
Where we protest to keep blurple
vapid nymph
yummy DiScord
@plucky ridge due to the app icons its gonna be at least a month
because you have to see the shit every single day at sign in
and have to find it too
yeet
vapid nymph
its white now
sterile sapphire
oh my god
last mantle
because you have to see the shit every single day at sign in
lol
tardy rain
My god that font is atrocious
sterile sapphire
that looks amateurish
vapid nymph
My god that font is atrocious
DiScord
plucky ridge
<@!98195144192331776> due to the app icons its gonna be at least a month
Fair
sterile sapphire
that looks like that special version of discord you get
rugged echo
PEP 8 4 LIFE
sterile sapphire
with hacks and all
vapid nymph
DO YOU SEE THAT ICON
wraith hound
Uni Sans Heavy > this stupid font
plucky ridge
Well actually
plucky ridge
If we think about it, they're living up to their name
sterile sapphire
it would look like that
wraith hound
If we think about it, they're living up to their name
Oh god
plucky ridge
They're currently sewing discord among the masses
tardy rain
The icon doesnt look that bad next to the text
sterile sapphire
If we think about it, they're living up to their name
hahahaha
wraith hound
Dont bring logic into this
vapid nymph
Ik what a discord is but what is DiScord
last mantle
DO YOU SEE THAT ICON
whats new in canary?
vapid nymph
whats new in canary?
yes
vapid nymph
start here #ot1-perplexing-regexing message
last mantle
yeah i got canary
rough sapphire
They're currently sewing discord among the masses
Eyyy
vapid nymph
They're currently sewing discord among the masses
i hate you now
OH THEY KNEW THIS WAS COMING
when they rebranded partners and verified
to the green
solid pollen
They're currently sewing discord among the masses
So if this is what you see when turning Discord back on, you know it is going to be a good afternoon, right?
vapid nymph
vapid nymph
someone made a new icon and put it on reddit
imo i think its really nice and we should use it
rough sapphire
So if this is what you see when turning Discord back on, you know it is going to...
a-good-afternoon-awaits
wraith hound
So if this is what you see when turning Discord back on, you know it is going to...
It's a wonderful afternoon
vapid nymph
quick count the mentions in that screenshit
wraith hound
more serious again: this sucks
@vapid nymph Do these look similar: #python-discussion #python-discussion
Crap
wraith hound
Discord is being mean
wraith hound
Discord is being dumb
acoustic moss
vapid nymph
😏
wraith hound
You wouldnt
rough sapphire
Damn
wraith hound
I know you wouldnt
rough sapphire
I mean, that's the nuclear option, but I won't stop you
vapid nymph
I know you wouldnt
ur not wrong sadly
i wish microsoft had been able to buy microsoft
*discord
rough sapphire
I think I've mentioned this before, but I doubt that that could've prevented this design change
vapid nymph
I think I've mentioned this before, but I doubt that that could've prevented thi...
microsoft owns both github, microsoft, and azure, and yet manages to not be reallly shiity with their design
hell, its been rumored that windows 10 is getting a makeover and few people have been complaining about it
vapid nymph
yeah
@rough sapphire although to give them the benefit of the doubt, do you like anything that's been changed so far about Dᵢscord?
rough sapphire
<@456226577798135808> although to give them the benefit of the doubt, do you lik...
About the design, not really
last mantle
hell, its been rumored that windows 10 is getting a makeover and few people have...
yuppers
pog
rough sapphire
i am going to regret this pfp change
Oh, boy 😅
rough sapphire
<@456226577798135808> although to give them the benefit of the doubt, do you lik...
Differentiating that because there are some features added
With an arguably unnecessary caveat
vapid nymph
i changed it to the non blurple one first and then did it
rough sapphire
With an arguably unnecessary caveat
There have also been talks about Nitro users getting a higher text limit in messages, access to themes, per-server avatars, increase server cap, popout/tabbed chat windows, favorite channels & DMs.
edgy crest
are those legs of someone inside the trumpet or is that a tongue
rough sapphire
's a tongue
vapid nymph
are those legs of someone inside the trumpet or is that a tongue
both are bad
rough sapphire
both are bad
True
inland wolf
hell, its been rumored that windows 10 is getting a makeover and few people have...
apparently theyre hiring a bunch of good designers
at least mobile discord is blurple
vapid nymph
at least mobile discord is blurple
for now
i can tell you that its changed a lot so far
harsh tundra
> There have also been talks about __Nitro users__ getting a higher text limit i...
Per-server avatars? Hmmmm. Could be useful in some servers but in general people are visual, so matching avvies helps me find people
harsh tundra
at least mobile discord is blurple
If I go to Play Store, discord's logo there is already in new colour, sooooo...
wraith hound
On Android Alpha
harsh tundra
Ugly
wraith hound
Yes
rough sapphire
Per-server avatars? Hmmmm. Could be useful in some servers but in general people...
That's fair
harsh tundra
Like I recognise people I know on WoW server's discord, or on PUG/guild servers
Even if they have a different username set there (multiple characters) or have a fun nickname set in guild server
rough sapphire
Yeah, I think it's more of an issue about being able to do so, not about wanting to
Although I agree that people are visual
vapid nymph
On Android Alpha
that isn't the full icon
the icon is just the orange stuff
the rest of it isn't part of the icon
tardy rain
No?
rough sapphire
damnit
tardy rain
Use a help channel #❓｜how-to-get-help
rough sapphire
it's not really that python related that's why
tardy rain
Ok then you can ask here i guess
rough sapphire
okay I'll take a try
I just installed ffmpeg then tried to play a sound
loop = AudioSegment.from_mp3(f"{cwd}\\hello.mp3")
play(loop)```
But it's showing me that I have no permission to a fully different folder and a fully different file
```PermissionError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: 'C:\\Users\\User\\AppData\\Local\\Temp\\tmpvo9y4974.wav'```but why
inland wolf
whats cwd?
inland wolf
it looks like it made a temporary wav file
to play
but it doesnt have access
but thats the temp folder
it should have access
rough sapphire
I tried to run a cmd as administrator and then
cd C:\app
Python3 app.py
still don't work
inland wolf
hmm
rough sapphire
I also tried to download simpleaudio
but it gave me so many errors I just couldn't handle it
inland wolf
im not sure why it doesnt work
graceful basin
py app.py should work if that doesn't
rough sapphire
yeah py is not recognized, python started but it's still the permission denied error
what happens if I pull the whole folder in the Temp folder? 👀
inland wolf
then it can get deleted
rough sapphire
oh nvm
inland wolf
can
rough sapphire
not gonna take that risk
and if I change it, so it doesn't make the temporary file in that folder?
rough sapphire
isn't this gonna change the whole computer
graceful basin
you can change env variables only for the current shell session
but that isn't the actual problem
scroll to the very bottom and try those things
rough sapphire
yeah that's where I got the simpleaudio solution from
you mean that by the last comment?
Yeah the problem is that I'm trying to learn these things right now, and I don't understand anything from that
latent scaffold
What do y'all think I should spent my DigitalOcean credits on?
low chasm
hm
low chasm
brilliant
latent scaffold
hmm
latent scaffold
Make a site on how bad manjaro is and host it on digital ocean
There are already a few of those
vapid nymph
how do symlinks affecting the working directory ?
harsh tundra
how do symlinks affecting the working directory ?
what do you mean?
vapid nymph
if i want to symlink a file and then i run that file, what directory did it run in
did it run in the ~./symlinkgobrr/ directory, or the ~./lol/wow/heythisiswhereimlocated/ directory
what is its cwd
harsh tundra
well, your cwd is wherever you was
vapid nymph
what is its
harsh tundra
even if you are in ~/whatever/ and run ./some_folder/some_file
then your cwd is ~/whatever, not ~/whatever/some_folder/
vapid nymph
but what is the file that is ran working directory
not my own
what does it use
if it was a python script and i got the directory what would it be
harsh tundra
working directory is always where it's run, as I said
in python it's the same
if you have relative paths like ./my_file.json in the main.py file's location
then you have to execute it from main.py's location
vapid nymph
so it could be in a different location and symlink to that
and it would use the directory of the symlink
harsh tundra
let's say it's ~/my_project/main.py
and it has open(./my_file.json) in its contents
if you are in ~ and do python3 my_project/main.py then you'll get an error because cwd is where you were - ~ - and ./my_file.json doesn't exist
it's the same with symlinks, when it comes to cwd
vapid nymph
ah okay
now.…
what happens if a program goes to edit a symlink?
that edits the original and doesn't remove the symlink, right?
harsh tundra
the think only changes when you get the current file's location, e.g. by import module and module.__path__ - because that's for the file's real location
harsh tundra
that edits the original and doesn't remove the symlink, right?
symlink is basically a reference
and original file is the object itself
you point to that object, changes to object don't change other references
harsh tundra
what happens if a program goes to edit a symlink?
but as for opening the symlink, you might need to check if whatever you use follows symlinks
I know that some path-searching stuff like os.walk or glob might have a parameter whether to resolve symlinks
harsh tundra
nope, mainly pycharm
harsh tundra
uninstall and install
harsh tundra
lol
vapid nymph
uninstall and install
no this is an extension for a @polar knoll
harsh tundra
lol
graceful basin
found a font that has all lines equally thin
golden walrus
there's a cat trapped in your prompt
no one asked for it but here's a recent picture of my cat
ruining my dad's plants
and I just let her be
vapid nymph
found a font that has all lines equally thin
😳
WAIT ANOTHER UI CHANGE AAAAAAAAAAAAAH
vapid nymph
found a font that has all lines equally thin
ROUNDED CORNERS@graceful basin
sorry for reply i forgot to remove it
and now a gap
graceful basin
oh, nice
vapid nymph
oh that gap is annoying
graceful basin
I have literally never used that window
vapid nymph
lol
fwiw
its the same modal as emojis and channel mentions
and slash
/sucks for all of them
harsh tundra
ruining my dad's plants
Our cat tried to get into tomatoes because the containers were on the windowsill he likes :D
Cat tax
harsh tundra
In his defense, some time before there were tomatoes there, a bird was annoying him from the outside...
harsh tundra
is that a huge place?
What place?
harsh tundra
Ah. Those bushes are just a line of lilacs
It's just perspective
It's basically:
::::|::::::: where dots are the lilacs and line is the cat, lol. The whole tree line is like 3 meters long?
golden walrus
i c i c
harsh tundra
But we have more than those lilacs
Perks of living in the countryside with family
That's from last year
He was helping us get the late/last pears :D
young shoal
:o
latent scaffold
ROUNDED CORNERS<@!207089259730042881>
said by a true Apple user
vapid nymph
i use android windows and linux
wraith hound
Imagine using Apple /hj
vapid nymph
never use iPhone or iOS or iMac or Mac or any of it except at school and then i hate it
latent scaffold
That was mostly a joke because Apple people are obsessed with rounded corners
for whatever reason
nothing can truly have a corner
vapid nymph
i'm obsessed with the fucking gap between the chatbar and the modal
WHY DOES IT EXIST
showing unflip there is ironic
low chasm
lmao
wraith hound
No flipping Cypheriel ┬─┬ ノ( ゜-゜ノ)
low chasm
haha
latent scaffold
you're not my dad
low chasm
pfft
wraith hound
you guys didnt see nothing
Yes I did
latent scaffold
we did not see nothing
low chasm
huh
latent scaffold
Grammar, Aboo. Grammar.
low chasm
lmao
latent scaffold
lmao beans
low chasm
i like beans :P
high zealot
distant hazel
captain fisher!