#ot1-perplexing-regexing | Python | Page 433

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 2:55 PM

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Essentially

📎 unknown.png

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i feel like the flux i was talking about is dif than your electric flux
@twilit hull i felt that in the beginning itself

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 2:56 PM

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the flux i was talking about was just integrating once for area

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then if you integrate over area you get volume

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per unit time

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 2:56 PM

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Oh that thing

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I was talking the physics flux

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 2:57 PM

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welp i wont be much help lol

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if you show the pic i might figure something outlol

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but most likely not

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guido

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 2:57 PM

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I'll show you the figure

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 2:57 PM

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dank

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 2:57 PM

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📎 unknown.png

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 2:58 PM

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wat is the def for flux in this case?

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the volume that pass through that weird thing per unit time?

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 2:58 PM

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nah

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electric field passing over the area of the figure

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 2:59 PM

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surface area?

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wait but that doesnt make sense

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 2:59 PM

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it is

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 2:59 PM

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how since surface area has no liek

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volume

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 2:59 PM

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In principle, to find the net flux through the surface

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:00 PM

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it would be just the surface area itself right?

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since unit time we just times that area by 1

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:00 PM

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when did i talk about time?

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:00 PM

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wait

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oh i get it now shouldve said at any given time stamp maybe?

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:01 PM

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Hmm

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maybe that

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:01 PM

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so its just the surface area itself?

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:01 PM

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There is also this flux for volume

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yeah

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:02 PM

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hum

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lol i always think of flux as volume per unit time welp

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:02 PM

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It is understood

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:02 PM

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why not just call it surface area

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pithink

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oh wait i get it now

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cuz flux is surface area with directions

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omg

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~~this should be illegal~~

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:03 PM

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what?

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surface area with directions?

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I don't get what you understood

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:04 PM

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i just saw the those vectors representing those flux

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so liek maybe its not simply adding up to get area

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but its adding up unit flux in each unit area with directions

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:04 PM

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yeah

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:04 PM

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this is insane how do you even

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:05 PM

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generally you dont have this complex shapes

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:05 PM

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how do you even represent this weird plane with funcs lol

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:05 PM

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lol

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that is the mathematicians part

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not ours

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lol

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:05 PM

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this is way outta my

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lol

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:06 PM

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As I said, this is just beginning

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:06 PM

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can we delete physics

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:06 PM

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so, that was like an example just to motivate you

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the general problems are like cylinder, cube etc

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can we delete physics
@twilit hull lol

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:06 PM

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ohh so you could rep them with 2d planes smart

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:07 PM

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Yeah

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:07 PM

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wait no actually if they are not orthogonal to the arrows

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wait it doesnt matter cuz the angles cancel out

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:07 PM

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uh

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wait a min

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:07 PM

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this is too much thinking i just wanted to meme on codecademy

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lol

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:08 PM

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📎 unknown.png

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:08 PM

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you need to find the def for those 3 letters

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lol

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oh wait thats just the flux

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:08 PM

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the first one is flux

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:08 PM

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its just projecting the flux over to the area

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:08 PM

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E is electric field

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A is area

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bruh

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that is the flux itself

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:09 PM

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📎 unknown.png

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ohhh

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wati wat

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thats definitely a vector projection

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:10 PM

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Yeah

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:10 PM

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the \delta phi is the flux on that unit surface i think

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:10 PM

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electric field is a vector quantity

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:11 PM

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which is the projection of the OG arrows onto that unit area

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with angle \theta

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idk man im just noob welp

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:11 PM

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Yeah

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I don't know why you feel it this complex

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it is pretty much simple

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:12 PM

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and im assuming you just sum all the $$\delta phi$$ to get the total flux?

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:12 PM

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yeah

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that is why you integrate

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:12 PM

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hum its just the name is misleading i feel like

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if you call it projected surface area eletric field or soemthing lol

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:12 PM

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Yeah

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lol

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cos ur flux is different from mine

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:13 PM

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yeah lol

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:13 PM

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projected surface area eletric field-seriously?

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:13 PM

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lol i feel like thats just what it is tho

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:13 PM

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just electric flux

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:13 PM

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liek PSAEF

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guido

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:14 PM

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lol

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:14 PM

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liek all the kool guys use acronyms

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:14 PM

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What?

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:14 PM

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i was memeing lol

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:14 PM

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lol

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U r in univ or finished?

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:15 PM

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finished

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yesteryear

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:15 PM

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Senior

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lol

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:15 PM

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no longer a senior lol

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also i think we should be PC about it and call it n-th year

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guido

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:18 PM

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PC?

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:18 PM

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lol not really just some peeps do that lol

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:21 PM

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Nice talk

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:22 PM

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everyday i feel like im being more stupid than before

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lmao

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:25 PM

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lol

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I feel the same when I start coding

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Probably you are better in it

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:28 PM

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nah

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there is one plausible explaination tho

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~~that we both suc lol~~

wet crane Aug 4, 2020, 3:35 PM

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exactly. but,shh

twilit hull Aug 4, 2020, 3:36 PM

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~~lol~~

sand goblet Aug 4, 2020, 3:43 PM

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I know there's a few modders here

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I am starting to get reeeeeeeeally tired of how toxic the minecraft forge project is

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 3:44 PM

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In what way?

sand goblet Aug 4, 2020, 3:44 PM

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I think this gist that a prominent modder made outlines it well, but https://gist.github.com/jellysquid3/8b68b81a5e48462f8690284a0a3c89a1

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there's very much an air of "I have to be correct, I don't have to be nice"

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like classic torvalds

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of course they're often not correct either

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I got yelled at for refusing to shut up about coremodding once because I asked how to do something without coremodding haha

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 3:48 PM

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Yeah that's a massive tl;dr

sand goblet Aug 4, 2020, 3:48 PM

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it's years and years of bs tbh

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I'm glad fabric is a thing (as an alternative to forge) and their community isn't toxic

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hopefully I get to move to it someday

small fossil Aug 4, 2020, 3:51 PM

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they've managed to make Sky go even more of a bad app

📎 unknown.png

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 3:52 PM

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Today seems especially weird

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No idea why

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 3:55 PM

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Has anyone done any PDF generation with Python? I need to generate a summary type thing, and I can see a few different ways of doing it - not sure on exactly the best way

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Pretty much just a bunch of tables and colours

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easiest way to me seems to be Jinja+HTML+Something to turn HTML into a PDF

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 3:56 PM

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That would be my suggestion, honestly. Working directly with PDF is an absolute bear in most cases

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Where as things that print to PDF files are great

small fossil Aug 4, 2020, 3:57 PM

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report lab is pretty good

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 3:58 PM

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Hemlock

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another option

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 3:58 PM

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I'm just heavily bitter towards pdfs

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 3:58 PM

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is an Excel plugin

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in React

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I'm not sure if your experience should push me towards it or pull me away from it

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 3:59 PM

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This is for work?

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 3:59 PM

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yeah

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 3:59 PM

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If everyone is using Office 365 or the latest Office then it's not a terrible choice.

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If you're using only Windows machines and copies of office then I'd steer you towards VSTO

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But using Excel as an interface isn't necessarily a bad idea

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The only reason I had so much trouble with the Office.js stuff was because I was woefully unprepared

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 4:01 PM

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Also, if you are in Office365, there is Excel REST API

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 4:02 PM

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Even non-365 uses that, but you can't easily guarantee your on-prem versions will have what you need, not easily at least.

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 4:02 PM

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REST API?

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 4:02 PM

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But I can certainly help clarify a bunch of the BS I went through if that's the path you decide to take, Charlie

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Yeah

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 4:02 PM

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TIL

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 4:02 PM

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Or no wait, maybe not REST

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Gah, hold on, I'm feeling dumb now

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 4:03 PM

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you could also build summary webpage as well

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 4:03 PM

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nah - my manager doesn't want a dashboard

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 4:03 PM

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🤮

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I hate Excel Dashboards

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 4:03 PM

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well - this is just presenting information

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 4:03 PM

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How integrated are you with Office stuff

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Like your office I mean

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 4:04 PM

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Email is worse

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 4:04 PM

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Options are generating PDF (i don't mind), generating static Excel (i'm not a fan), or actually interfacing with Excel (almost certainly a terrible choice, but it appeals to me on a stupid level)

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and I think the Excel thing is just a bad idea

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I have 2 weeks

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 4:05 PM

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My gut says you're going to have a less terrible time - yeah, go for the first

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 4:05 PM

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and too many problems lie in that direction

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 4:05 PM

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Although you'd probably have an easier time of it than I did

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There were lots of limitations that bound my hands

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The biggest one being that I had to have a solution that worked even when not connected to the office network or the internet in general

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Now having said that, I think option 1 is going to be the least painful

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 4:06 PM

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I think I'd face different but time consuming restraints

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i.e infosec being terrible here

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 4:06 PM

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Fo sho

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 4:06 PM

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Are people going to want data from this PDF?

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because that's the part I see being problematic

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 4:07 PM

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Good point

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 4:07 PM

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Well - the people using it are business people

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but some might want Excel

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then to aggregate it themselves

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 4:07 PM

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Are you in Office365?

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 4:07 PM

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Something in the back of my head tells me that you can convert HTML tables to Excel

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 4:07 PM

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Yeah, I think so

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 4:07 PM

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There is also PowerBI

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 4:08 PM

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there's openpyxl for working with Excel for Python

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 4:08 PM

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where you just dump raw data on it's head and be like, unfuck it cloud

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 4:08 PM

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and it looks pretty neat

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 4:08 PM

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It is, honestly

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 4:08 PM

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No

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 4:08 PM

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Not a good option in this case, mind you

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But the library is pretty cool

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 4:08 PM

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I dunno - I'm just collating like 3 APIs into one thing

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 4:08 PM

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If you're going to integrate with Excel, you'll want to do it the way they dictate

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Unless all that matters is getting the data from point a to point b

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 4:09 PM

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https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/graph/graph-explorer

Graph Explorer - Microsoft Graph

The Microsoft Graph explorer is a tool that lets you make requests and see responses against the Microsoft Graph

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 4:09 PM

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what the fuck is that

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 4:09 PM

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Something to note, I only really touched creating a Taskpane for the add-in

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 4:09 PM

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I have no idea

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but I love it

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 4:09 PM

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Graph

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 4:09 PM

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I press run

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boom

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email

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 4:09 PM

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Oh dude

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 4:09 PM

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how do I get a graph? I want a graph

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 4:09 PM

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That's dope as fuck

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 4:09 PM

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I don't want to do bloody LDAP

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 4:09 PM

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Microsoft REST API for interacting with all the Office365 cloud stuff

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 4:09 PM

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LDAP can get in the bin

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 4:10 PM

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?

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Graph is not for authenication

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Azure AD is for Authenication (OAuth2)

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 4:10 PM

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Little Ducks and Ponies

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 4:10 PM

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i'm using LDAP right now to go from name --> email

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but apparently not everyone is on O365 for some bizarre reason

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so it doesn't matter and this isn't a solution - needs to support Office 2016

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so

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screw that

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OpenPyxl

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 4:11 PM

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🤦

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 4:11 PM

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Doesn't seem like a problem if it's just aggregating and dumping the data to Excel

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Hell, could use Pandas to organize as need be

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I think

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Maybe

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That's not really my area

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 4:12 PM

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god I hate pandas

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but yeah

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making a dataframe isn't too hard

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but god is pandas terrible software

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 4:12 PM

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How so?

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 4:13 PM

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The options it gives you for manipulating data are just atrocious compared to equivalents in R or in normal Spark. The API is not near as intuitive as it could be

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some things just make 0 sense

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like kwargs that can't be passed down through functions

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despite the fact they should be able to be passed down through functions

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 4:13 PM

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Fair enough. Closest I ever got to it was numpy

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And that was only for Advent of Code

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 4:14 PM

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don't get me wrong - Pandas is by far the best way of working with CSV/excel/numpyish data in Python (that I know of)

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but it's bad compared to what you'd expect coming from better parts of the python ecosystem (or a better language for this stuff)

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 4:14 PM

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Fair

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Would the folks getting the Excel output expect anything special? Like any formulas calculating certain columns or what have you?

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Or would they just want the data well organized

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 4:15 PM

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mostly the latter

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in fact

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 4:15 PM

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Saves you some effort at least

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 4:15 PM

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nevermind the in fact

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 4:16 PM

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There is also getting them data

scenic blaze Aug 4, 2020, 4:20 PM

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I just give people csvs, haha

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 4:21 PM

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The data is too texty

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there's names and stuff in it

honest star Aug 4, 2020, 4:21 PM

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I think my favorite thing about pandas is the ability to pull data from a sql and almost immediately save it to a csv to give to someone who isn't as database-capable. It's been SO useful this test series

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 4:21 PM

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so it needs some degree of formatting

scenic blaze Aug 4, 2020, 4:25 PM

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Yeah, my workflow is generally numpy -> pandas -> sql database

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But I make csvs for people for quick checking of stuff

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Like "Hey what's the output for that step of your program?" I'd rather just quickly write the code to gen a csv

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 4:33 PM

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csv's really are useful

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For the longest time I didn't understand quite how they worked

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Like I thought they were only one line and didn't contain any newline characters

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No idea why I thought that

scenic blaze Aug 4, 2020, 4:34 PM

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They're useful to give to programmers since you can parse a csv in pretty much any language

celest vine Aug 4, 2020, 4:46 PM

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i made a typing game hack cuz i was bored :\

📎 image.png

scenic blaze Aug 4, 2020, 4:46 PM

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good job

arctic seal Aug 4, 2020, 4:49 PM

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there's always inspect element

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: P

celest vine Aug 4, 2020, 4:50 PM

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this is no cooldown mode

📎 no_cooldown_score.png

arctic seal Aug 4, 2020, 4:52 PM

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speed

rough sapphire Aug 4, 2020, 5:25 PM

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i am speed

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📎 2wsvxg.png

scenic blaze Aug 4, 2020, 5:45 PM

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Bleh

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Company I just interviewed with probably won't be a good fit because it's on the eastern coast

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east coast*

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and they want people to have meetings on their time zone

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and they like daily 9 am meetings >.>

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 5:52 PM

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9 AM sounds soooo east coast

celest vine Aug 4, 2020, 5:52 PM

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meetings are dumb

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 5:52 PM

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it's probably standup meetings

scenic blaze Aug 4, 2020, 5:53 PM

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yeah

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but wtf 9 am

celest vine Aug 4, 2020, 5:53 PM

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literally most of the time spent in meetings are spent pretending to do work

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 5:54 PM

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West Coast Companies I've dealt with generally are fine if nothing starts before 10AM

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my company is awesome enough not to start before 1030

scenic blaze Aug 4, 2020, 5:54 PM

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Exactly

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Local company starts at 10 am

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 5:55 PM

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like my G Suite working hours are 1030 -> 1730

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7 hours

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and meetings are pretending to do wokr

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but I'm paid for 8 hours, I don't care how I spend it

scenic blaze Aug 4, 2020, 5:57 PM

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My daily meetings range from 15 seconds to 15 minutes

plucky ridge Aug 4, 2020, 6:04 PM

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Gotta love the "Should have been an email" meetings

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 7:25 PM

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I really wish instead of doing 9-5, you just had to log roughly 40hours a week

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or X hours

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because - I'd much rather work 7-10 and 17-22 than 9-5

quick ledge Aug 4, 2020, 7:27 PM

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damn 17-22

undone berry Aug 4, 2020, 7:27 PM

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maybe 7-11 and 17-21

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but the point is mornings and evenings

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fuck afternoons

stone beacon Aug 4, 2020, 7:29 PM

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f u c k a f t e r n o o n s

small fossil Aug 4, 2020, 8:22 PM

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FFFFFFFF

📎 unknown.png

honest star Aug 4, 2020, 8:27 PM

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Lol, at my org everyone pretty well assumes the day starts at 7am. We frequently have 8am meetings

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 8:28 PM

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Fuck that noise

rancid forge Aug 4, 2020, 8:28 PM

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(human-operated color bot)
#FFFFFFFF

📎 unknown.png

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 8:28 PM

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#FF00FF

honest star Aug 4, 2020, 8:29 PM

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I only complain if we have meetings before 7:30am... but mostly because I struggle waking up before 6:30 am

rancid forge Aug 4, 2020, 8:29 PM

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(human-operated color bot)
#FF00FF

📎 unknown.png

scenic blaze Aug 4, 2020, 8:30 PM

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8 am meetings wow

honest star Aug 4, 2020, 8:30 PM

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But having a 7-3 workday is pretty nice in the summer

scenic blaze Aug 4, 2020, 8:30 PM

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Honestly I'm comfortable working 10 am to 10 pm

rancid forge Aug 4, 2020, 8:30 PM

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i like 9 am to any time personally

scenic blaze Aug 4, 2020, 8:30 PM

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I mean like, not all those hours, but maybe have random breaks thrown around in there

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 8:30 PM

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Telling my developers you have 8Am meeting. 🛏️

honest star Aug 4, 2020, 8:31 PM

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Some people get in at 6am. I've have requests for 7:00am meetings and I literally just laugh at that

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 8:31 PM

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Telling me that. dadparrot 🛏️

scenic blaze Aug 4, 2020, 8:31 PM

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I mean sure if you need to have a meeting at that time because everything is on fire

rancid forge Aug 4, 2020, 8:32 PM

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i could probably do that because i generally wake up early but i would be angry if it were earlier

scenic blaze Aug 4, 2020, 8:32 PM

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Or you're okay with me not retaining any information disclosed at that meeting

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That's one thing, but daily/regular meetings? Screw that

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 8:32 PM

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That’s not a meeting, that’s a party at dumpsterfire

honest star Aug 4, 2020, 8:32 PM

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oh no, these are just regular meetings. Like project updates, reviewing procedures before testing for the day

rancid forge Aug 4, 2020, 8:32 PM

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🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
🔥meeting time🔥
🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

lofty dirge Aug 4, 2020, 8:33 PM

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Yea, you can catch my asleep butt up at 10

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I’m not out of bed

rancid forge Aug 4, 2020, 8:33 PM

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in completely unrelated news
the Twins have loaded the bases again

small fossil Aug 4, 2020, 8:33 PM

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We fixed socket upgrades 🎉

scenic blaze Aug 4, 2020, 8:33 PM

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🎉

small fossil Aug 4, 2020, 8:33 PM

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I do not miss dealing with that shit

rancid forge Aug 4, 2020, 8:35 PM

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pirates walked max kepler three times today

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(human-operated color bot)
Shutting down, @ @rancid forge with a color value to start the service

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apparently discord gives tips now in the EAP build

📎 unknown.png

rancid forge Aug 4, 2020, 8:58 PM

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i killed the chat

frozen crane Aug 4, 2020, 10:20 PM

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@rugged geyser I saw that you had asked earlier about making command line tools and that someone helped you with this in a help session, though I have a different approach

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let me know if you'd like to go over it

rugged geyser Aug 4, 2020, 10:24 PM

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@frozen crane yeah sure I was thinking of just using click + setup tools to create the python cli

frozen crane Aug 4, 2020, 10:24 PM

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please open a help session and ping me and we can talk about it.

rugged geyser Aug 4, 2020, 10:24 PM

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sure

bleak lintel Aug 5, 2020, 2:38 AM

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test

strange barn Aug 5, 2020, 2:39 AM

#

test

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 3:14 AM

#

btw this is why nobody except the most dedicated learns haskell https://wiki.haskell.org/State_Monad
@autumn night I've learnt the hard way that sometimes it's just easier to accept types as is rather than dwell on trivial examples and/or analogies

#

No regerts tho lemon_fingerguns_shades

autumn night Aug 5, 2020, 3:14 AM

#

heh, it was more just the fact that the doc is incredibly dense

#

or howto or wiki page or w/e

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 3:15 AM

#

Yeah there's no real structure to it really

autumn night Aug 5, 2020, 3:15 AM

#

every semi-official haskell document seems to assume you're fully familiar with the rest of the language

#

there's no good starting point in the official docs

#

you have to look elsewhere

#

i guess that's true for python, but less so

#

the big problem for python is that not enough stuff is cross-linked in the docs, like the definition of an "iterable"

#

which makes them hard to read

scenic blaze Aug 5, 2020, 3:18 AM

#

You're hard to read

#

(Because we're communicating online and I can't see your facial expressions)

autumn night Aug 5, 2020, 3:47 AM

#

i'm also a salt rock

#

it's hard to communicate with humans irl

#

pretty different cultures

trail hollow Aug 5, 2020, 4:26 AM

#

I'm bad at communicating online and offline

#

i never understand

#

see

#

then its silence

#

😂

wet crane Aug 5, 2020, 4:46 AM

#

Online communication takes more time than offline

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 4:55 AM

#

but the tradeoff is you have more time to think out what you're going to say

trail hollow Aug 5, 2020, 5:44 AM

#

yes i'm working on it lemon_infant

solid pollen Aug 5, 2020, 7:42 AM

#

Isn't that just a lemon juice stand?

twilit hull Aug 5, 2020, 8:35 AM

#

~~lemonade~~

#

i always feel like lemonade is just grenades made of lemons lol

ancient minnow Aug 5, 2020, 8:38 AM

#

What why?

rich rover Aug 5, 2020, 8:39 AM

#

Multiple games interpreted lemons as weapons

solid pollen Aug 5, 2020, 8:41 AM

#

When life gives you lemons...

rich rover Aug 5, 2020, 8:47 AM

#

Squeeze them on your keyboard

floral viper Aug 5, 2020, 10:36 AM

#

I'LL HAVE MY ENGINEERS INVENT A COMBUSTIBLE LEMON! SO I CAN BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN! WITH LEMONS!

obtuse falcon Aug 5, 2020, 10:37 AM

#

trust me i am a engineer

tame terrace Aug 5, 2020, 10:38 AM

#

ah yes, my boutique

obtuse falcon Aug 5, 2020, 10:39 AM

#

now give me pgp gui in .deb type

solid pollen Aug 5, 2020, 10:53 AM

#

I'LL HAVE MY ENGINEERS INVENT A COMBUSTIBLE LEMON! SO I CAN BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN! WITH LEMONS!
@floral viper don't forget the manager

obtuse falcon Aug 5, 2020, 10:59 AM

#

dont trust me the lemon write a tool tthat broke pgp so i kill the lemon

solid pollen Aug 5, 2020, 11:00 AM

#

The pgp is a lie anyway

wheat lynx Aug 5, 2020, 1:05 PM

#

Woo I fixed it

#

So you know when your computer is being all slow and shit

#

And you decide to close some stuff down

#

But then it won't close down, so you open up the terminal to kill it

#

But you accidentally copy the wrong PID and end up killing Xorg

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 1:08 PM

#

htop to the rescue!

wheat lynx Aug 5, 2020, 1:08 PM

#

I had to turn it off because it was all broken n stuff

#

But then when I turned it on it froze whenever I tried to login

#

So then I spend my whole morning trying to get it working

#

And it's working!

#

(although I'm pretty sure it will break again if I turn it off, so I'm sort of scared to turn it off now)

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 1:11 PM

#

👀

#

Sounds like time for a reinstall

wheat lynx Aug 5, 2020, 1:11 PM

#

It'll be fiiiiiine

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:18 PM

#

sounds like time to not fix it

#

because then you'll spend time not fixing it than fixing it

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 1:19 PM

#

Sounds like time to invest in a proper backup strategy then lol

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:20 PM

#

that's the strategy where it breaks and you back the fuck away from the table?

#

https://tenor.com/view/leaving-sneaking-out-my-name-is-earl-whoa-gif-13676761

Tenor

wheat lynx Aug 5, 2020, 1:26 PM

#

Although to be fair I feel I learnt quite a lot by trying to fix it

#

I still don't really know what the problem was. Well, the problem was that it wasn't working, but I don't know the details

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:29 PM

#

That's my life story

#

"I mean.... it's on fire, I know that."

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 1:29 PM

#

"But why is it on fire?"

#

"Wait, I know that too."

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:32 PM

#

"Probably all the fire I put on it, honestly."

#

Bleh, well this is a good sign.

#

Only just now taking my morning meds

#

Stupid printers taking up time

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:33 PM

#

well there's your problem

#

you should only load paper into the paper tray

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:34 PM

#

Right but then I can't have the cool deigns on them that I want

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 1:34 PM

#

Huh. Well, the fire probably isn't helping that.

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:34 PM

#

Or the carcinogens

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:34 PM

#

ahhhh

#

love that generic error

#

lp0 on fire

#

a genuine unix error message for printers

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:34 PM

#

But seriously, the first thing I got greeted with this morning was a printer that was printing out solid black pages

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:35 PM

#

you sure it wasn't just doing that instagram blackout thing

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:35 PM

#

This is why people shouldn't change toner other than me

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:35 PM

#

and you're just crushing a political movement?

royal laurel Aug 5, 2020, 1:35 PM

#

But seriously, the first thing I got greeted with this morning was a printer that was printing out solid black pages
@plucky ridge excuse me it's doing what now

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:35 PM

#

Political movements don't usually go hand in hand with daily payroll reports

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:36 PM

#

solid black pages usually means an idiot put the toner in

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:36 PM

#

I did 2 cleaning pages, still getting horizontal bars

#

So something is still fucked

#

And I swapped the cart

royal laurel Aug 5, 2020, 1:36 PM

#

What a wasteeee

#

If there's something I hate, it is printers

#

I despise printers

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:37 PM

#

Eh, I mean paper and toner is so cheap (relatively) that it's not as big of a deal

#

You can waste a couple hundred and it really wouldn't make that much of a dent

wheat lynx Aug 5, 2020, 1:37 PM

#

but think of the trees lemon_sentimental

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:37 PM

#

And since our shred goes to a recycling company, I don't feel super terrible about it

#

More annoyed, honestly

royal laurel Aug 5, 2020, 1:38 PM

#

It's more the ink mafia than anything else

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:39 PM

#

consumer cartridges are a massive fraud

royal laurel Aug 5, 2020, 1:41 PM

#

I just hate it man

#

Digitally locked cartridges

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:42 PM

#

yeah, i believe in the U.S. there was a lawsuit over it

#

can't remember how it turned out

#

when a cartridge can just be reloaded with ink and you're intentionally flipping bits in the firmware to say "don't use this" then fuuuuck you.

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:44 PM

#

Oh yeah, consumer carts are dumb

#

Business ones are slightly better

#

Well, for toner at least

#

But they're such complex machines that if one thing goes the whole thing is shot

#

Although that has been moderately rectified by having a lot of those complex parts in the toner cartridge, but then that ups the cost and yaddah yaddah

#

I'm mainly salty that HP doesn't have any metal fuser rollers anymore

#

It's all the film

#

And considering we've had fusers literally shred themselves in multiple machines, it gets old reeeaaalllly quick

#

But then the trade off is that the film ones heat up faster so there's less time from clicking print to picking up your page but like...

#

Sorry, I'm rambling about the most boring thing in the world

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:48 PM

#

i am fully onboard with your rant

#

i too have spent too much time inside of printers

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:48 PM

#

I'm just imagining you as a Borrower just wandering through one

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:48 PM

#

or reading a 2000 page service manual to see if i could bypass the ink detection mechanism

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:49 PM

#

If we didn't have contracts with a printer maintenance firm and someone who comes in and replaces our toner carts, I might have looked into it

#

But the maintenance is far more useful in my eyes

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:49 PM

#

hint: you can but you have 4 arrow keys and an okay button and it's like +20 menus deep in the secret service mode boot method

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:49 PM

#

Which is usually locked

#

Oh, cool thing

#

We actually have a printer/scanner big ass thing that has a keyboard

#

Just pulls out from under the screen

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:50 PM

#

yeah, you just have to get inside and find the "reset to real factory defaults" jumper

#

oh that is cool

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:50 PM

#

Yeah pretty sure that'd void our contract like

#

Instantly

#

Not going to be held responsible for that one.

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:51 PM

#

i was working for a school when i did that. they outright owned the machine but obviously didn't have any printer experts and weren't going to pay for none

#

"look, i can see it. there is clearly toner in there!"

#

"yes, but it wont print if it's below X level because it might not produce good results."

#

"don't care. make it work."

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:52 PM

#

Also potentially for mechanical safety

#

Although that's less often the case

#

And with our prints, we need to have good quality

#

But yeah, schools are always on a tighter budget

#

So that makes 100% sense to me

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 1:53 PM

#

When I worked for SKDP the printer had like an entire reservoir

#

this bigass separate thing for waste toner

#

it'd fill up and then we'd have to wait two days for the guy to come empty it before we could print again

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:53 PM

#

ahhh waste toner.

#

the shirts people have destroyed taking those things out

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 1:54 PM

#

I stained my hands a couple times

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:54 PM

#

"Toner smoke. Don't breathe this. No seriously, it'll actually give you cancer."

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 1:55 PM

#

the printer at my current job doesn't have a separate thing for waste toner

#

I suspect there is still waste toner, and that it's just in the actual toner cartridges

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:55 PM

#

i've managed to come out of printer work with a 100% clean white shirt rate

#

fucking jamie hyneman up in here

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:55 PM

#

HA

#

Was just thinking that

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 1:55 PM

#

me too tbh, my shirts were okay

#

haha

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:55 PM

#

always wash toner off with cold water as well btw

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:55 PM

#

Yep

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:56 PM

#

if you don't it'll set

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:56 PM

#

And become more likely to absorb into the skin

#

Same rule after going to a gun range

#

Honestly I just wash my hands with cold water most of the time anymore

undone berry Aug 5, 2020, 1:56 PM

#

oh - is that true for lead?

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:56 PM

#

lead and gun powder tend not to be the best things to put in your mouth

#

yes

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:56 PM

#

Yep

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:56 PM

#

you should 100% wash your hands after handling lead pellets

undone berry Aug 5, 2020, 1:56 PM

#

huh - used to shoot air rifles all the time and washed my hands with hot water

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:57 PM

#

Air rifle pellets aren't typically lead are they?

undone berry Aug 5, 2020, 1:57 PM

#

yeah

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:57 PM

#

they are

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:57 PM

#

Huh

#

Didn't know that

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:57 PM

#

📎 Air-gun-pellets.png

undone berry Aug 5, 2020, 1:57 PM

#

The ones I had were soft enough that you'd fairly regularly crush them with your bare hands

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:57 PM

#

Oh you know what

undone berry Aug 5, 2020, 1:57 PM

#

lead is the only metal even close to letting you do that

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:57 PM

#

not the steel bearing ones.

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:57 PM

#

I was thinking the copper bb's

#

Yeah

#

@undone berry Gold

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:58 PM

#

yeah, these have to be lead else they wont rifle in the barrel

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:58 PM

#

Um... I've got another one...

#

God what's it called...

undone berry Aug 5, 2020, 1:58 PM

#

There is one that's almost liquid at room temperature

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:58 PM

#

i think you can get some other metal types for non-toxic pest control

undone berry Aug 5, 2020, 1:58 PM

#

but not quite

floral viper Aug 5, 2020, 1:58 PM

#

Lead bans are starting to roll out now though

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:58 PM

#

gallium?

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:58 PM

#

THAT

undone berry Aug 5, 2020, 1:58 PM

#

but it stains the shit out of your hands

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:58 PM

#

That's the one

undone berry Aug 5, 2020, 1:58 PM

#

yeah - that's it

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:58 PM

#

fucks up aluminium real good too

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:58 PM

#

The old "melting spoon" trick

undone berry Aug 5, 2020, 1:58 PM

#

Gallium isn't harmful - but it does stain apparently

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:58 PM

#

Yep

#

It's really cool stuff

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 1:58 PM

#

literally decays/destroys aluminium, so cool to watch

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:59 PM

#

I think mercury can do the same? Or it can

#

When it amalgamates with other metals.

undone berry Aug 5, 2020, 1:59 PM

#

I think Lead is still malleabler than gold

#

by a fair bit

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 1:59 PM

#

You're probably right

#

@floral viper It'll be interesting to see how that goes

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 2:00 PM

#

i haven't hit a gold bar with a hammer and punch yet

#

but i'd say probably.

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 2:00 PM

#

I know gun advocates will pitch a HUGE fit

undone berry Aug 5, 2020, 2:00 PM

#

@gentle moss yeah, I generally leave my gold bars alone

#

don't bother hammering them

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 2:00 PM

#

also: we have lead bans in europe

#

you can still get lead shot for guns

#

you just can't use it in like say, soldering

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 2:01 PM

#

Oh huh

#

I mean is there really a decent replacement for bullets?

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 2:01 PM

#

for lead shot there's steel shot

undone berry Aug 5, 2020, 2:01 PM

#

you still get lead solder right?

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 2:01 PM

#

and if you're hunting to eat you should use that already

floral viper Aug 5, 2020, 2:01 PM

#

@gentle moss no in some countries it is completely banned. Denmark for example. Uk is banning it atm

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 2:01 PM

#

nope, it's not lead based anymore charlie

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 2:02 PM

#

Oh finally, it's safe to lick the soldering work

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 2:02 PM

#

you might be able to get it as a specialist product, but it's not common place anymore

undone berry Aug 5, 2020, 2:02 PM

#

huh - so it seems. I'm sure 5-10 years ago it was still fairly common

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 2:02 PM

#

because i think it's around then when it came in

#

i still have some lead based solder laying around

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 2:03 PM

#

I'm sure I do as well

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 2:03 PM

#

the new stuff feels like it needs a higher temperature to work with, but it's fine

undone berry Aug 5, 2020, 2:03 PM

#

yeah, lead is the only metal of it's kind when it comes to meltiness

#

most others are quite a bit higher

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 2:03 PM

#

Gallium

undone berry Aug 5, 2020, 2:03 PM

#

enough to be annoying

#

gallium is too melty

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 2:03 PM

#

True

undone berry Aug 5, 2020, 2:03 PM

#

ideally you'd want one that melted at like 120c or something

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 2:03 PM

#

I'm just obsessed with it

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 2:03 PM

#

tin is low

#

you can do that on a camp fire

undone berry Aug 5, 2020, 2:04 PM

#

tin is lower

#

but it's also very liable to tarnishing

#

lead not near as much

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 2:04 PM

#

i think lead is like

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 2:04 PM

#

Unless in an alloy

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 2:04 PM

#

~250c?

undone berry Aug 5, 2020, 2:04 PM

#

tin is 230, lead is 300ish

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 2:04 PM

#

Neat

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 2:04 PM

#

the most common lead solder replacement i see is like

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 2:04 PM

#

I should get some bismuth crystals...

undone berry Aug 5, 2020, 2:04 PM

#

yeah, normally you're allyoing tin, lead, and other shit to get exactly what you want

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 2:04 PM

#

tin-silver-copper mix

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 2:05 PM

#

They're so pretty

#

https://www.thebismuthsmith.com/shop/20866624/whole-sale-crystals

Worlds Finest Rare Metal Crystal Decor

AAA High Quality Bismuth Crystals

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 2:05 PM

#

bismuth is pretty nice looking yeah

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 2:06 PM

#

https://www.thebismuthsmith.com/listing/766328494/giant-bismuth-aztec-calendar Oh dude that one's friggin' awesome

#

Too expensive to own but still

undone berry Aug 5, 2020, 2:08 PM

#

thinking about lead

#

why is it always a lead pipe

#

that you hit someone with

#

literally any other metal seems better

#

I guess it's the weight/denseness of lead

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 2:08 PM

#

Also because that's what was most common around the time that was popularized

undone berry Aug 5, 2020, 2:08 PM

#

even if it is fairly malleable and liable to bend

#

yeah, true

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 2:09 PM

#

More likely to bend yes, but still probably stronger than a skull

undone berry Aug 5, 2020, 2:09 PM

#

sorry to lead us off on a tingent - back to bismuth

#

very cool stuff

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 2:09 PM

#

And helpful when you have an upset tumtum

#

Niiiiiiiiice

#

That was a worthwhile edit

undone berry Aug 5, 2020, 2:10 PM

#

I only noticed the potential genius after the fact - I couldn't let the opportunity go to waste

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 2:10 PM

#

Good man

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 2:21 PM

#

oh hey

#

pipenv installed a library

#

but it can't lock it

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 2:21 PM

#

i think it's the weight of a lead pipe

#

blackjacks were often made with lead shot in them for the same reason

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 2:22 PM

#

it'll install it just fine but refuses to lock

gentle moss Aug 5, 2020, 2:22 PM

#

"saps"

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 2:22 PM

#

good times

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 2:47 PM

#

You have to pop it before you can lock it

solid pollen Aug 5, 2020, 2:48 PM

#

Pop'n lock, man

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 3:09 PM

#

I just watched the episode of Community the other day where they have the pop'n'lock'a'thon and no one goes accept Chang who pops and locks for like 5 hours or something.

scenic blaze Aug 5, 2020, 3:45 PM

#

That was great

#

Then they lose anyway

#

and Chang doesn't get to join the group

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:22 PM

#

@rough sapphire And there's nothing wrong with being not good at a particular language. But every language has its strengths and weaknesses, and hating it wholesale does no one any good

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:23 PM

#

he is still going on about it in general lol

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:23 PM

#

Yeah I see that

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:23 PM

#

My rule of thumb is that if you think whatever language you use is flawless, you're basically a zealot trying to prove something or you're just lying to yourself

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:23 PM

#

@rough sapphire Again, more than willing to have the conversation, but lets do it in here

#

Trying to implement one language in another is also going to lead to all kinds of headaches, especially if you're not experienced in the base language

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:24 PM

#

I use python every day, it's my work tool, but god damn does I hate it sometimes, I secretly wish the field I'm in would move to other languages but every time I try something else I just miss either the ecosystem, the documentations, syntactical shortcuts etc

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:25 PM

#

I mostly use C# and C++ so writing classes in python is a bit weird lol

#

ok

#

fine

#

i will do it here

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:25 PM

#

Thank you

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:26 PM

#

@rough sapphire For the record, Lua is not comparable to Python in terms of functionality. Lua is a lot more lightweight than CPython

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:26 PM

#

It's also not used for the same purpose at all

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:26 PM

#

I saw a guy on twitter that got Lua running in kernel mode lol

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:26 PM

#

There's a reason why it's the preferred scripting language for C/C++

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:26 PM

#

if lua is more lightweight than python then why do i have to import tons of stuff in python, a high-level language?

#

bruh

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:26 PM

#

Because namespaces help with cohesion

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:26 PM

#

imports don't have anything to do with how high/low level a language is

scenic blaze Aug 5, 2020, 5:26 PM

#

^

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:27 PM

#

Consider the following

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:27 PM

#

you're saying because a language has a good ecosystem (that is, a big community) it's bad ?

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:27 PM

#

no

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:27 PM

#

Python's strengths lie in its diverse ecosystem, how quickly you can create something, ease of testing, interoperability with C code and a few others.

Its weaknesses are its execution speed, its dynamic typing, difficulty with recursion, and requiring the interpreter to run

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 5:27 PM

#

Haskell is extremely high level and requires imports for everything but prelude, and purescript requires imports for even the prelude

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:27 PM

#

if lua is more lightweight than python then why do i have to import tons of stuff in python, a high-level language?
@rough sapphire python has a lot of the code already written for you. In other languages you would need to write it on your own

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:27 PM

#

Haskell is extremely high level and requires imports for everything but prelude, and purescript requires imports for even the prelude
@graceful basin Said it before me haha

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:27 PM

#

the low/high level discussion is silly at best

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:28 PM

#

i never said i like haskell or purescript, i dont even know what the latter is, and for haskell, i never wrote even a hello world in it

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 5:28 PM

#

imports are just because having everything builtin is inconvenient

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:28 PM

#

high level - good for complex interaction with servers, scripting, etc. low level - good for performance dependant tasks and generally when you need to get down and dirty with the memory

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 5:28 PM

#

lua prevents having a massive builtin namespace by placing functions into tables

#

which is a fine approach

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:29 PM

#

in python you have to convert tuples and builtins to lists to perform most of the list-related functions

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:29 PM

#

What do you mean by "builtins"?

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:29 PM

#

Yes, because they're different things

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:29 PM

#

a type when you run builtins()

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:29 PM

#

uhhhhhh

#

dict?

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:29 PM

#

well because tuples are by nature read-only

#

well ok with tuples i can understand

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:30 PM

#

I don't see how that is a problem, they're different types entirely

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 5:30 PM

#

yeah, lazy sequence manipulation is pretty mediocre in python

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:30 PM

#

but builtins and tuples are basically the same

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:30 PM

#

what

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:30 PM

#

they are both readonly lists

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:30 PM

#

which builtins

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:30 PM

#

Javascript's strengths are that it's really the only horse in the game when it comes to Web stuff, its vast and battle tested ecosystem, its powerful engines (V8 for example).

Its downsides are that it's restricted to being either web based or server based, and while you can wrap it into a desktop application using something like Electron, performance suffers heavily. Its dynamic typing, use of both null and undefined, as well as a handful of other things make it very problematic

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:30 PM

#

I'd honestly rather move map and filter to functools if only it didn't break legacy code

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:30 PM

#

builtins()

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:30 PM

#

that's not a type

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:30 PM

#

That's a dictionary

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:31 PM

#

I think you don't really understand which types exist in Python and why they are different.

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:31 PM

#

hemlock, python is also dynamic typing

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:31 PM

#

I also mentioned that as a con in my Python list

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:31 PM

#

oh

#

i didnt notice that list

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:31 PM

#

I'm taking the values of the language per language

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:31 PM

#

brb

scenic blaze Aug 5, 2020, 5:32 PM

#

complaining about dynamic typing but also complaining about having to convert types is ???

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:32 PM

#

Just like any good tool, it has to be used for the right job

#

You wouldn't use a hammer to screw in a bolt, you wouldn't use a wrench to saw a plank of wood

#

You can (and should) find what you like and dislike about a language, but it needs to be within the context of its purpose

#

Blanket hatred towards a language limits your options and learning opportunities, and breeds unnecessary biases towards things that could benefit you at a later date.

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:34 PM

#

fair enough

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:34 PM

#

Again, I get that there's a LOT to bitch about in Python. There is in any language

#

But you have to take the noise of the crowd with a grain of salt, find out for yourself

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:34 PM

#

Again, I get that there's a LOT to bitch about in Python. There is in any language
unless it's lisp. it's perfect /s

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:35 PM

#

Don't you mean Haskell?

#

I jest

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:35 PM

#

(((Sorry)(((Say (again?))))))

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:35 PM

#

@topaz aurora I think you misspelled Idris!

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:35 PM

#

Nah QBasic for the win

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 5:35 PM

#

I think you meant forth

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:35 PM

#

I think I said Form DSL

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:35 PM

#

pascal is the perfect language, no one can beat it /s

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:36 PM

#

I keep seeing "Pascal" but in my head hear "pastels" and it just makes me think about art classes back in middle school

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:36 PM

#

Well, Pascal ABC .NET adopted many modern features

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:36 PM

#

I'll stick to my favorite LISP flavor for now haha

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:36 PM

#

@topaz aurora I think it'd make me happier if LISP was written as if you had a lisp. Like thtring for string

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:37 PM

#

Don't give me ideas now

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:37 PM

#

I'm actually building a lisp interpreter in python, it's pretty fun

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:37 PM

#

if python adds readonly lists (tuples), why not add readonly for every type and not make it in a separate type, just use a keyword or something, that would perhaps make it better than js

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:37 PM

#

(most) lisp implementations actually make a very nice use of dynamic typing that we don't see very often

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:37 PM

#

cause there is no need

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:37 PM

#

It does have immutable other types

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:37 PM

#

Immutability by convention works well

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:38 PM

#

strings are immutable, for example

#

As are ints and floats

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:38 PM

#

@rough sapphire Making an arbitrary type immutable is impossible and might make some types useless. But, for example, there are frozensets.

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:38 PM

#

but i can read and write to a string, int and float

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:38 PM

#

nope

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:38 PM

#

It creates a new object

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:38 PM

#

(not without ctypes, which is cursed)

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:38 PM

#

It's not modifying the same one

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:38 PM

#

By convention, it should be noted not to touch anything like this

DO_NOT_TOUCH = UnsafePerformIO()

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:38 PM

#

lemme try that

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:39 PM

#

Python works on the idea of "consenting adults"

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:39 PM

#

Ye

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:39 PM

#

In that the conventions should be as good as gold when it comes to treating things as constants

#

Python isn't going to tell you that you can't do it, but you know that you shouldn't

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:39 PM

#

And, well, there are read-only properties

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:39 PM

#

Forgot about those

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:40 PM

#

it works fine

📎 unknown.png

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:40 PM

#

I really hate the idea of footguns and letting the developers on their own

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 5:40 PM

#

you are not changing a string

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:40 PM

#

you didn't modify the string

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:40 PM

#

That's overwriting the string

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 5:40 PM

#

a = (1, 2)
a = (3, 4)
``` is also valid

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:40 PM

#

you're binding a new string to the variable somestr

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:40 PM

#

if you mean that there is no const keyword, then yes

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:40 PM

#

oh

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:40 PM

#

__slots__ also enforces stuff to not arbitrarily be assigned with new attributes

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:40 PM

#

!e

my_string = "bacon"
my_string[1] = "c"
print(my_string)

royal lakeBOT Aug 5, 2020, 5:40 PM

#

@plucky ridge :x: Your eval job has completed with return code 1.

001 | Traceback (most recent call last):
002 |   File "<string>", line 2, in <module>
003 | TypeError: 'str' object does not support item assignment

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:40 PM

#

📎 unknown.png

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:41 PM

#

What I just tried right there is an attempt to modify the string itself

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 5:41 PM

#

enforcing immutability is difficult (I would even say unviable in a inheritance-based object environment)

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:41 PM

#

again, still created a new string

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:41 PM

#

Rather than just create a new one

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:41 PM

#

ok then, can they make non-immutable strings, ints, floats etc.?

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 5:41 PM

#

+= also creates a new string (there is a special case where it does for optimalization purposes, but that will never actually be detectable)

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:41 PM

#

Also, something like "bacon and " += "ham" also creates a - damn it lak, you're too fast

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:42 PM

#

Those things that you've mentioned are semantically immutable

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:42 PM

#

immutable is different from read-only
you can rewrite immutable things
but not read-only things

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:42 PM

#

You can't change some property of a number, but you can with a list

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:42 PM

#

that's because you're used to "false" const-correctness

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:43 PM

#

if you mean that there is no const keyword, then yes
but as I said in #python-discussion, it might be deceptive (as it doesn't prevent mutation)

const fooBar = {hello: "world"};
fooBar.hello = "baz";

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:43 PM

#

js doesn't have proper const correctness

#

unlike C or C++

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:43 PM

#

im not saying anything about js specifically

#

i dont really like it that much anymore

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:43 PM

#

Sure, it's just the easiest comparison to make

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:43 PM

#

@sonic river :D
in C/C++ the type of constness depends on where you put the const in the type
const int*
int* const
const int* const

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:43 PM

#

im talking about "final" in java

#

or does it not have proper final correctness as well

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:44 PM

#

yes, so we can have fine graiin control over which part we need as const/mut

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:44 PM

#

!e

xs = ([], [])
xs[0].append("Hello")
xs[1].append("World")
print(xs)

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 5:44 PM

#

making class immutable cannot work because of something like this

class Immutable:
    def fun(self):
        return 5

class SecretlyMutable(Immutable):
    def __init__(self):
        self.x = 0
    def fun():
        self.x += 1
        return self.x
```when object implementation details can arbitrarily mutate, it fails

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:44 PM

#

@rough sapphire you can still mutate something which is final, I think. Because otherwise you wouldn't be able to call any methods on a final value, since the compiler can't prove that some method doesn't have side effects.

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:44 PM

#

lemme try that

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:44 PM

#

Python doesn't have something like that. The best you can do is make the variable all caps and know that you shouldn't modify it. If you accidentally modify it yourself, that lends itself more to a logic error than a language issue

royal lakeBOT Aug 5, 2020, 5:44 PM

#

@topaz aurora :white_check_mark: Your eval job has completed with return code 0.

(['Hello'], ['World'])

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 5:44 PM

#

final List<Integer> x = new ArrayList<>();
x.add(10);
```is valid

#

same issue

#

when I can inherit from a class and make it mutate things, marking something immutable is meaningless

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:45 PM

#

const only reflects on the variable doesn't it?

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:45 PM

#

I believe so

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 5:45 PM

#

swift actually enforces it for structs, but not for classes

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:45 PM

#

Much like Rust's

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:45 PM

#

i mean, why wouldnt it be? its just a method

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:45 PM

#

@topaz aurora depends on the language (see message above about C/C++^)

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 5:45 PM

#

methods mutate

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:45 PM

#

👏 final 👏 doesnt 👏 mean 👏 preventing 👏 using 👏 methods

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 5:46 PM

#

then it does not mean immutability

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:46 PM

#

No but you were saying it should prevent changing the value?

#

Or did you just mean that it should prevent reusing the variable

#

Just trying to make sure I'm understanding

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:46 PM

#

So it prevents changing the identity, like const in JS, but doesn't prevent changing the value.

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:46 PM

#

but how would it prevent it if it is using methods and not += or something

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:46 PM

#

Gotcha, okay

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:46 PM

#

let xs = "hello".to_string();
// xs.push_str("world")  nightmare, bad
let mut ys = xs;
ys.push("world");

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:47 PM

#

That's rust, right?

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:47 PM

#

Yes

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 5:47 PM

#

+= is just several method calls in python

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:47 PM

#

Does xs still have ownership or is that given up when you make ys

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 5:47 PM

#

and in a bunch of other langs

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:47 PM

#

It is transferred to ys

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:47 PM

#

Gotcha, okay

#

Neat

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:48 PM

#

using languages i never claimed to be better than python against me is just not correct

#

i never said anything about rust

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:48 PM

#

We're not saying you did

#

We're just extrapolating on the concepts

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:48 PM

#

It's also totally different from Haskell's everything is immutable model which caught me off-guard

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:48 PM

#

all I have to say is "hi" when it comes to these conversations kotlin

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:48 PM

#

This is more us being nerdy and enjoying seeing how things tick in the various languages

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:49 PM

#

@topaz aurora And then you get caught off-guard when you realize that it is actually not 😄

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:49 PM

#

Is it?

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:49 PM

#

📎 unknown.png

#

so this does work but

#

like i said

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:49 PM

#

@topaz aurora Well, with unsafe stuff

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:49 PM

#

final doesnt mean preventing people from using methods

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:49 PM

#

That's correct

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:49 PM

#

makes sense

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:49 PM

#

yup

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:50 PM

#

@rough sapphire wouldn't that final just prevent reassinging the value x points to?

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:50 PM

#

final only reflects on the variable much like const I believe

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:50 PM

#

that's right

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 5:50 PM

#

ye, all final does is prevent the value from being reassigned (except when it does not)

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:50 PM

#

you can actually bypass that modifier on JRE < 12

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:50 PM

#

Well, in java there's reflection and stuff...

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 5:50 PM

#

reflection doesn't let you do that IIRC

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:50 PM

#

That reminds me of interior mutability in Rust. Neato

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:50 PM

#

JRE >= 12 prevents it though

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:50 PM

#

do you know why that did not work? it's because it's not a method

📎 unknown.png

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:50 PM

#

it does, on 11 and lower

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:50 PM

#

crazy, right?

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:51 PM

#

Yes, you're assigning something new to a final

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:51 PM

#

it applies some extra optimisations tofinal variables when they're plain primitives as well

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 5:51 PM

#

no, that did not work because you are reassigning a variable, rather than mutating an object

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:51 PM

#

Well, in Python there's typing_extensions.Final

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:51 PM

#

📎 unknown.png

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:51 PM

#

in kotlin, you can actually only use final with static primitives

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:52 PM

#

There are actually many more weird type stuff in the world 🤔 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substructural_type_system

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:52 PM

#

I expect it does some memory optimisation that has to be enforced there

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:52 PM

#

It's still reassigning a variable, you're not mutating the 5 object

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:52 PM

#

also operators in java are not methods

#

which is why you can't override them

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:52 PM

#

like python's += on strings

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:52 PM

#

~~well that also doesn't mutate~~ ya fixed it

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:53 PM

#

:)

📎 unknown.png

#

the [int] part isn't necessary, though

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:53 PM

#

fine you proved me wrong about 1 of my 17 cons

#

neither java nor javascript has immutable const/final

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:53 PM

#

I bet that one is a nasty hack

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:53 PM

#

nobody is saying python has no cons

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:53 PM

#

haha

#

java does have const as well

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:54 PM

#

i noticed that

#

but didnt get to learn what java's const does

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:54 PM

#

it might just be an alias, I'm not sure

#

yeah it's just a reserved keyword

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 5:55 PM

#


jshell> import java.lang.reflect.Constructor;

jshell> import java.lang.reflect.Field;

jshell>

jshell> enum Test {
   ...>     A, B;
   ...>     public static void main(String[] args) throws Exception{
   ...>         Field f = Unsafe.class.getDeclaredField("theUnsafe");
   ...>         f.setAccessible(true);
   ...>         Unsafe unsafe = (Unsafe) f.get(null);
   ...>         Test C = (Test) unsafe.allocateInstance(Test.class);
   ...>         long addr = unsafe.objectFieldOffset(Enum.class.getDeclaredField("ordinal"));
   ...>         unsafe.putInt(C, addr, 5);
   ...>         System.out.println(C.ordinal());
   ...>     }
   ...> }
|  created enum Test

jshell> Test.main(new String[0])
5
``` I mean, does java 12+ really prevent mutating final fields?

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:55 PM

#

const disallows you to reassign a value

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:55 PM

#

nope

📎 unknown.png

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:55 PM

#

The enhancement request ticket in the Java Community Process for implementing const correctness in Java was closed in 2005 on the basis that it was impossible to implement in a backwards-compatible fashion, implying that const correctness will probably never find its way into the official Java specification.

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:55 PM

#

maybe it's int const

stable knoll Aug 5, 2020, 5:55 PM

#

isn't that final in java?

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:55 PM

#

it's a reserved keyword but it doesn't do anything

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:55 PM

#

nope

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:55 PM

#

as in, it's not used in the parser

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:55 PM

#

like goto?

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:55 PM

#

yes it is final but we are discussing const, a different keyword

stable knoll Aug 5, 2020, 5:56 PM

#

ok

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:56 PM

#

which appears does nothing

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:56 PM

#

so they just kind of reserved the keyword and decided not to implement it

#

I wonder why

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:56 PM

#

they do that a lot

scenic blaze Aug 5, 2020, 5:56 PM

#

Python doesn't force things, it just offers best practices and syntax clarification

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:56 PM

#

btw i use java 8 because i am too poor for higher javas

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:56 PM

#

I build against 14 where possible

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:56 PM

#

Python doesn't force things, it just offers best practices and syntax clarification
@scenic blaze also python: requires tabs instead of brackets

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:56 PM

#

but I also write minecraft mods so gotta target 8 there

scenic blaze Aug 5, 2020, 5:56 PM

#

You should be tabbing anyway

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:56 PM

#

yes i am

scenic blaze Aug 5, 2020, 5:57 PM

#

It offers clarity for someone else reading your code

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:57 PM

#

well you should be using 4 spaces

#

but yeah

scenic blaze Aug 5, 2020, 5:57 PM

#

Fair

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 5:57 PM

#

pretty much the only disadvantage there is moving code blocks around, which a good editor fixes

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:57 PM

#

but when i say copy code from say, discord, in primitive IDEs i cant shift+tab

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:57 PM

#

really if such a small syntactical difference bothers you, id say the problem lies elsewhere

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 5:57 PM

#

I mean, even vi lets you deal with it fine

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 5:57 PM

#

C-style syntax is more flexible but indentation-based syntax is more humanly readable

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 5:57 PM

#

so I tend to call it not a problem

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:57 PM

#

yeah, what pure said

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:58 PM

#

the only difference is that aggressive indentation is not possible for python, that's about it

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:58 PM

#

which is why things with C-style syntax tend to be indented

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:58 PM

#

i dont know, people say python is like english, but have those people ever seen lua?

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:58 PM

#

lua is far less readable, what're you talking about

scenic blaze Aug 5, 2020, 5:58 PM

#

The benefit to C is that if you really wanted to fuck with people you can obfuscate your code and make it unreadable pretty easily

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:58 PM

#

if you want to achieve english in a programming language, use lua

#

and again, i dont say lua is good

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:58 PM

#

use COBOL /s

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:58 PM

#

tell me zalt

scenic blaze Aug 5, 2020, 5:58 PM

#

^

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:58 PM

#

@shell raptor I will end you

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:58 PM

#

how do you join two strings in lua?

scenic blaze Aug 5, 2020, 5:58 PM

#

COBOL is the english programming language that's terrible but it exists

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:59 PM

#

SQL is not great either

scenic blaze Aug 5, 2020, 5:59 PM

#

SQL works well enough, tbh

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:59 PM

#

lua may be less readable, but it is almost exactly like english

#

oracle sql is dope tho

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 5:59 PM

#

in what way

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:59 PM

#

it's really not

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:59 PM

#

What's crazy to me is that both SQL and COBOL are a chore to write in but they're so friggin' powerful

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:59 PM

#

it even starts with 1 for all you english-programming language lovers

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:59 PM

#

it's 1-indexed, yes

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 5:59 PM

#

FLATTEN MONAD IN users WHERE LEFT ASSOCIATIVE JOIN EXISTS ON NULL

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 5:59 PM

#

i know starting with 1 is not an english thing

#

but still

scenic blaze Aug 5, 2020, 5:59 PM

#

Then why did you say it

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 5:59 PM

#

@shell raptor I mean in fairness I've gotten emails like that

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 5:59 PM

#

I can't believe we have to have a separate concat operator in a modern language

#

string + string? Nay, string .. string

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 6:00 PM

#

can you develop on how lua may be closer to "english" than python

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 6:00 PM

#

lua is not really modern i think

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 6:00 PM

#

I mean, + for strings is bad if you have weak typing

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 6:00 PM

#

@shell raptor English-based parser combinators 👀

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 6:00 PM

#

@sand goblet Tell me how to concatenate strings in Julia 😄

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 6:00 PM

#

if you have implicit casting, yeah

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 6:00 PM

#

lua has tons of cons but it was easy enough for me to make a simple game using LOVE2D

scenic blaze Aug 5, 2020, 6:00 PM

#

Julia is a programming language?

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 6:00 PM

#

@sand goblet I think there are others that do something like ++ instead of +

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 6:00 PM

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yes chess

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 6:00 PM

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But I can't remember off the top of my head

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 6:00 PM

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haskell

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 6:00 PM

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Ahhh okay

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 6:00 PM

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Julia is string(x, y)

scenic blaze Aug 5, 2020, 6:00 PM

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Okay, I've mentioned this a billion times, but I wish Python had ++ and --

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 6:00 PM

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^

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 6:00 PM

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Ehhhhh

scenic blaze Aug 5, 2020, 6:00 PM

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Tired of typing out += 1 -=1

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 6:00 PM

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I'm not really hurt about it

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 6:01 PM

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like yall said, different languages have different purposes

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 6:01 PM

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I'd rather not have ++ or --

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 6:01 PM

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In Julia, "abc" * "def" == "abcdef" and "abc" ^ 2 == "abcabc" because of some bullshit explanation about how it forms a monoid.

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 6:01 PM

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<> is also a synonym for String concat

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 6:01 PM

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It's like... 3 extra key strokes?

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 6:01 PM

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<> in haskell (there is no common typeclass for String and Num), ~ in raku (otherwise you get weak typing mess), . in PHP, ditto

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 6:01 PM

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I actively avoid it in languages that have it

undone berry Aug 5, 2020, 6:01 PM

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Sql is lovely to write

scenic blaze Aug 5, 2020, 6:01 PM

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It comes up a lot in algorithmic work

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EVERY KEYSTROKE IS SACRED /s

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 6:01 PM

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But yeah, different flavors per language.

scenic blaze Aug 5, 2020, 6:01 PM

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(I say as I fuck off on discord)

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 6:01 PM

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now we moved on from python to different programming languages, great

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 6:01 PM

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it's because haskell bois thought it would be a good idea to make strings linked lists

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 6:01 PM

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and I think kotlin doesn't use it either, although I could be wrong

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 6:01 PM

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now they're regretting it

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and everyone uses Text

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 6:01 PM

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This is how our brains work, Zalt

scenic blaze Aug 5, 2020, 6:01 PM

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strings as linked lists O_O

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 6:02 PM

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or ByteString

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 6:02 PM

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Or don't work, I guess

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 6:02 PM

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@sonic river There are actually many different types for strings, and I'm lost :)

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 6:02 PM

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ye, <> should still work cause Semigroup

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 6:02 PM

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String is defined as [Char] @scenic blaze

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cause monoid

scenic blaze Aug 5, 2020, 6:02 PM

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How do y'all feel about chars as ints?

shell raptor Aug 5, 2020, 6:02 PM

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In traditional object-oriented programming languages const would require proving that a method is not mutating anything.
The only way to do that is to mark mutation in the type system (like in Haskell/Idris)

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 6:02 PM

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at the end of the day, you guys will always prefer python over java and js, and i will prefer js and java over python

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i dont prefer python over anything I apply the best tool for the situation

scenic blaze Aug 5, 2020, 6:02 PM

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^

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 6:02 PM

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i started with js and so i like c-like syntax

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 6:02 PM

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That's a generalized assumption mate

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 6:02 PM

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I linked it before but

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprinting_(psychology)

Imprinting (psychology)

In psychology and ethology, imprinting is any kind of phase-sensitive learning (learning occurring at a particular age or a particular life stage) that is rapid and apparently independent of the consequences of behaviour. It was first used to describe situations in which an an...

scenic blaze Aug 5, 2020, 6:03 PM

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If you like java so much why not code in C?

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 6:03 PM

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We're all prone to it

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 6:03 PM

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kotlin and python are my top two but I do a lot of java

scenic blaze Aug 5, 2020, 6:03 PM

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Or ASM

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 6:03 PM

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c is low level

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 6:03 PM

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@rough sapphire I wouldn't say always. I have been dabbling in some JS based languages or at least ones that compile down to it (Elm and ReasonML are the ones I'm referring to)

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 6:03 PM

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different tools for different things

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 6:03 PM

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I started with pascal, C and java and I still like python

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 6:03 PM

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like really low level

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 6:03 PM

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Again, it's right tool for the right job

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 6:03 PM

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I started with C, python is still my favorite

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java isnt that low level

sand goblet Aug 5, 2020, 6:03 PM

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although I wouldn't use java if I could slot kotlin into the stack

scenic blaze Aug 5, 2020, 6:03 PM

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I mean, you are saying that you hate high level stuff

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 6:03 PM

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C is pretty high level

scenic blaze Aug 5, 2020, 6:03 PM

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So why not go as low as you can go

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ASM all the way

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 6:03 PM

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@scenic blaze Soldering transistors into place?

rough sapphire Aug 5, 2020, 6:03 PM

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C is pretty high level
@graceful basin not sure if i agree but ok

topaz aurora Aug 5, 2020, 6:03 PM

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C is pretty high level
Relative to ASM

sonic river Aug 5, 2020, 6:03 PM

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the low/high level discussion is soooooo silly

graceful basin Aug 5, 2020, 6:03 PM

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yes

plucky ridge Aug 5, 2020, 6:03 PM

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It is