is it any good
#ot1-perplexing-regexing
solid pollen
The 100 is quite good
sand goblet
I was curious if softether supported wireguard
it does not
someone opened an issue as a feature request for it and they were like "are you going to implement it then?"
haha
gentle moss
Altered Carbon is pretty good xx
big fan
probably one of the better modern sci-fi series
undone berry
Does it aim for a serious tone, or a startrekky less serious tone?
gentle moss
serious tone with some light elements
the concepts in the story are quite fun too
oh and violence. lots of bloody violence.
undone berry
Actual bloody violence, or superhero movie style violence?
gentle moss
real bloody violence
it's a netflix series after all
oh and it's got some titties, if that makes any difference at all
undone berry
Violence is the big seller - I feel like there's no good violent TV shows recently
gentle moss
it's a very futuristic dystopia kind of vibe
agile quail
one of my rounter antena fell off and now my download is staying at like 900kbs and its disconnecting every 2-3 mins fml lol
btw it fell off because my cat decided to play with it
solid pollen
Plug it back in?
sand goblet
Yeah just screw it back on
agile quail
it more so broke off im not sure how but it was screwed on and i guess it snapped again im not sure how my cat managed to snap it but o well im most likely going to get a new one soon but in the meantime this is my life it seems
this wonderfull drawing shows what i mean by "snapped"
solid pollen
The cat did that?
solid pollen
The cat broke the antenna?
terse sluice
how?
agile quail
he might of knocked it over or something but i assume it was the cat nothing else explains it lol
solid pollen
Is it the same cat as in captain marvel?
agile quail
apperently
rough sapphire
@fossil solar what is that panel ?
rough sapphire
@fossil solar can you share that config you using ?
solid pollen
Remind me that i still need to mess around with plasma
I did already mess around with keys and softlinks, so that's good
fossil solar
not able to upload it
solid pollen
!paste maybe?
royal lakeBOT
rough sapphire
not that kind of thing that can be pasted
solid pollen
Maybe, but I have a pretty good GPU
fossil solar
well it still exceeds
rough sapphire
latte dock doesn't work on xfce ?
fossil solar
There is huge part in the file where it sets config for everyapp
will delete that
solid pollen
I was hyped to do my first real 3.8 project, then I realized that kivy doesn't official support it >.>
ELA's status message is so true
Pipenv is sloooowww
ebon quarry
pyenv & pyenv-virtualenv is my swiss army knife at both home & work
really good software
rough sapphire
aye
tired osprey
@rough sapphire can you tell me which idiot came up with the idea to have ssl certificate versions 0 indexed? the cert file contains a 0x0, libressl (and i presume openssl) interprets it as v1, 0x1 as v2 and 0x2 as v3
or why you would do this
tired osprey
bad! slaps
rough sapphire
the pydis server is full of abuse
tired osprey
yes
rough sapphire
huh, Kirk Douglas passed away and inherited 50 million dollars to charity
very cool
terse sluice
@visual shuttle well i don't remember exactly, but basically what happened is i had a project in mind i wanted to do and tackled it. google searches, old stack overflow posts, youtube, and reddit were my best sources. i did lack a bit of foundation though since i jumped straight to working on a project, but i went back and started from the beginnning a few months after. this was not by any means the best (or even good) way to start. i found this discord server a few months ago and helping out in the help channels, which has actually taught me so much about python and programming in general. i feel like i've learned more than i've taught. i thank this server for much for much of my knowledge
TL:DR the way i seriously started learning was not the best way by any means & this server has helped me grow as a programmer a lot
visual shuttle
How many members here?
terse sluice
!server
royal lakeBOT
Server information
Created: 3 years, 1 month and 23 days ago
Voice region: europe
Features: NEWS, PUBLIC, BANNER, ANIMATED_ICON, VIP_REGIONS, VANITY_URL, DISCOVERABLE, PARTNERED, INVITE_SPLASH
Counts
Members: 34,065
Roles: 49
Category channels: 14
News channels: 1
Text channels: 101
Voice channels: 6
Members
4,040
2,536
1,595
25,894
terse sluice
over 34k currently
terse sluice
i wouldn't say famous, but we're pretty well known. we have some great partners and pretty big sponsors
visual shuttle
As for the youtube tutorials you used, name a few?
terse sluice
erm i don't remember, but they were specific to the project i was working on
so not really general python
visual shuttle
But for me to learn basics, without a project in mind, any YouTube tutorial should be good?
royal lakeBOT
frosty berry
any of these is good, and a lot of other them around the internet are certainly good, but it's hard to say that "any" would be good, there are certainly very poor ones, hence, this list of selected ones, that are known to be good.
visual shuttle
You only have three Youtube channels listed and a ton of books, books are not my thing
terse sluice
those 3 youtube channels are very good ones
frosty berry
to put it bluntly, reading and following instructions, is a very useful skill for a programmer, and listening to advices from people can save you heaps of time, but at some point, you have to get on with it and experiment stuff, you'll only progress by getting the information you need, and trying to apply it.
if you didn't try these 3 youtube channels, i have no idea what your point is.
frosty berry
nothing covers everything in python
it's too big a subject
but any of these should cover more than enough to get you started
visual shuttle
the rest you can learn while actually programming - Ah..I see
frosty berry
i've been learning python for 15 years now, and i built quite a few projects with it, and i'm still learning new things pretty often.
visual shuttle
Like I meant when I was just watching the videos I saw that max and min functions were not explained at all
@frosty berry So is there still a ton of research, looking up tutorials you do?
terse sluice
the name seems self-explanatory for some. if you ever need any extra explanations, the docs or help function would be great sources
most use the docs
!e
print(help(min))
@terse sluice :white_check_mark: Your eval job has completed with return code 0.
001 | Help on built-in function min in module builtins:
002 |
003 | min(...)
004 | min(iterable, *[, default=obj, key=func]) -> value
005 | min(arg1, arg2, *args, *[, key=func]) -> value
006 |
007 | With a single iterable argument, return its smallest item. The
008 | default keyword-only argument specifies an object to return if
009 | the provided iterable is empty.
010 | With two or more arguments, return the smallest argument.
011 |
... (truncated - too many lines)
Full output: https://paste.pythondiscord.com/ewinebuzib
gentle moss
you will have to look stuff up
frosty berry
i don't watch a lot of video tutorials no, i do read books and docs of the libraries i use and of python itself, and all that, and sometime the thing i find is in the form of a video, but that's not my favorite way.
gentle moss
and a lot of that will be reading
frosty berry
reading is pretty important for a programer.
terse sluice
very important. especially reading documentation
visual shuttle
So even if it is on a computer (not on paper)?
frosty berry
yes
graceful basin
Videos are inconvenient, because I can't just C-f the thing I forgot
frosty berry
most of the time it's on a computer that i read
graceful basin
And scrolling through them is slower
frosty berry
most of the time it's a web page
visual shuttle
if you ever need any extra explanations, the docs or help function would be great sources
The official docs?
frosty berry
i do have books, some in dead trees, some in pdfs, some on my kindle, some things are more convenient for some usages, than others
graceful basin
Ye, you will be reading a lot of docs, sometimes even bad docs, so you will have to resort to reading the source
visual shuttle
bad docs?
frosty berry
well, not every programmer is a talented technical writter, or even motivated to properly document the code they wrote
so some libraries have basically 0 usable documentation
frosty berry
well, the python doc is quite good at this point
visual shuttle
And if I don't understand the technical terms in the docs like of python I can ask here?
frosty berry
sure, if you looked around for a definition and still don't understand, it's fine to ask
visual shuttle
So LOTS of googling?
gentle moss
yup
frosty berry
yep, that's programming in a nutshell
terse sluice
every single day
stark prawn
Don't get lost though.
Googling one thing may result in me googling dozens of related things and wasting time
gentle moss
you can't memorise everything
terse sluice
programming must've been painful back then
undone berry
Having a conceptual understanding of whats happening, and being able to write code are very different
although both important
frosty berry
some of us remember before google
visual shuttle
BTW, what operating systems you use?
frosty berry
linux
gentle moss
linux
frosty berry
(ubuntu)
stark prawn
linux
terse sluice
linux & windows 10
visual shuttle
ubuntu?
terse sluice
manjaro
visual shuttle
Anybody use macos?
stark prawn
manjaro for me aswell
undone berry
No, but I have used Macos
stark prawn
macos is pretty popular aswell
frosty berry
a lot of devs use macos
undone berry
and now feel the pull towards it
according to the stackoverflow survey, more devs use macos than Linux
terse sluice
interesting
terse sluice
i haven't seen much mac os on this server besides joe
undone berry
visual shuttle
@frosty berry
stark prawn
I'd say in my class windows and macos are represented about equally.
visual shuttle
Since you are more experienced I had a question
gentle moss
oooh, just by 1.2%
undone berry
My suggestion: Dont @ someone, then tell them you have a question
just ask the question
frosty berry
visual shuttle
visual shuttle
Yeah, so I was asking is it fine if the youtube tutorials you recommended don't cover min and max and other functions?
undone berry
about Macos v Linux
graceful basin
It is fine, you can implicitly understand them when you need them.or read the docs
frosty berry
well, a tutorial, or any documentation, really, always has to decide what things to explain or not, because if it explains every minute detail, it's never going to end, and nobody will read it, but if it goes the opposite, it can only help pretty advanced people
min and max are pretty basic functions, whose names are self explanatory, so i'm not surprised not more detail about them are given
visual shuttle
I mean that the tutorials did not even mention them
so if i had not googled i would never know
plucky ridge
That happens
plucky ridge
As unfortunate as it may sound, sometimes you do have to do a little research yourself to see what is available to you
terse sluice
we all use google every single day
plucky ridge
Checking the built-in functions and built-in types can go a long way
frosty berry
but of course, in this situation, if you don't know about the part that is skipped, either just research this bit and get back to the doc, or assume you'll understand later in the doc, and try to go through, or if there is too much of that, consider the doc is too advanced for you and try to look for something more beginner oriented
sadly, there is no one size fits all, documentation
gentle moss
i've read tuts and been like "oh, wtf is that and why does it work?" then have to google it
if a tutorial for X went into every detail of making X it'd be vast
plucky ridge
It's just another hurdle in the learning process, really
stark prawn
Which is a good attitude.
undone berry
focusing too much on whether you're learning the right way isn't too helpful - you'd be best off just doing whatever you feel is right than trying to make sure you get things right
stark prawn
I've seen people just take it for granted and continue without understanding.
undone berry
so don't focus too much on what others did to learn
plucky ridge
Also you have here as a resource
Not sure if there's something already built in to do something?
We're here to help
visual shuttle
@frosty berry I am not talking about doc. I am talking about the youtube tutorials
visual shuttle
So if all the youtube channels recommended don't cover the built-in functions and not even mention them like min and max, where should i go?
plucky ridge
There will always be something you won't know
Always things to learn
Well now you know to look for them. The Python documentation can help fill you in on things the videos may not have covered
visual shuttle
Python documentation can help fill you in on things the videos may not have covered - The official one right?
plucky ridge
Yeppers
undone berry
What will work 90% of the time is googling "python <thing-I-don't-know>" and reading the top result
plucky ridge
You can usually get away with searching like python 3 - yeah what he said
stark prawn
The official python documentation has me reading it for hours sometimes.
plucky ridge
You may have to double check which version of python the doc is pointing to, but usually, at least for the common stuff, it's going to apply across all the versions
stark prawn
Just following the links in the articles 😛
plucky ridge
It's like getting sucked into the wiki void
gentle moss
there are also a few "python cheatsheets" floating around that can be helpful reference material when you're starting out
terse sluice
anyway, the best way is to just get started and dive right in
cheatsheets are amazing
plucky ridge
Yeah that's the thing
undone berry
100% - doing is by far the most important thing
don't spend too long planning the right way to do it
plucky ridge
A lot of it is trying to do something, and if you don't have a way to do it that you know of, just look around to see if there's a way already implemented that you can use
That's honestly how I learned about any() and all()
visual shuttle
Guys, the thing i won;t know would not be mentioned in the first place so would not know to search for them. I mean for instance, give me a sec, the YouTube tutorials in the resource section do not even mention important functions built-in so how would I know what to search for?
terse sluice
search for what you need
undone berry
you will stumble across the unknown unknowns as you go
plucky ridge
"python 3 how to sort a list"
terse sluice
nothing can cover everything
plucky ridge
Just anything you can think of
You'll slowly start to get a feel for what kinds of things will guide you to the right resources or functions
Researching is a learned skill
terse sluice
knowing how to google a very important life skill
gentle moss
you also might want to go through some "fundamentals of python" type tutorials
most of them will be dull as sin in video form though
plucky ridge
Also true
gentle moss
so probably better to read them
plucky ridge
Hopping around to different tutorials (after you finish the one you're on) can give you different perspectives
visual shuttle
So I just need to like start with one doc/video and move on to different things?
undone berry
find one tutorial - follow it - optionally make something - repeat
plucky ridge
Yep. It's like being at a buffet
Finish what's on your plate, then you can go back for more
The more you eat, the more you learn what you like
Or in this case, the more you learn, the more you'll know what to look for
visual shuttle
Ah...like eventually one tutorial may mention built-in functions and I will then search for that in the documentation, right? @plucky ridge
plucky ridge
Yep yep
visual shuttle
@plucky ridge You have done that?
frosty berry
we have all been there, and pretty often, still are, you learn about something, and you discover you need to learn about something else to get there, and that can sometime be a whole new world of things you had no idea about, and sometime what exactly you need to learn is not clear to you, and asking people about it can help, and sometime people have no idea what you are talking about and you need to dig a lot to understand what you are looking for, that's all part of the job.
plucky ridge
I have indeed. For the first like 6 months I was just reading various tutorials and guides, just absorbing all I could, researching what I wanted to know more about
visual shuttle
So even the "geniuses" at google don't know everything about python?
plucky ridge
But the most important thing is getting your basics down
Oh absolutely
Everyone learns something new everyday
visual shuttle
I mean the software developers and programmers
plucky ridge
That's just a fact of life
undone berry
The amount of python you know without google will grow with time
plucky ridge
Always be willing to learn, never assume you know everything, and you'll benefit for it
undone berry
same as everything
frosty berry
i'm convinced nobody knows everything about python, not guido, not raymond hettinger, not david beazley, not nick coghlan, nobody
visual shuttle
Oh, i was under the impression that programmers at google know near everything
plucky ridge
Hardly
Everyone has different experiences. It's impossible to know literally everything
Some may have to google less for what they're doing, some more
undone berry
I imagine Tshirtman knows vastly more than me, and I know vastly more than someone who's been doing it a week. But the same is true of woodwork
or any other thing
plucky ridge
Neither one indicates a good or bad coder
visual shuttle
So like if I wanna start off learning right now from scratch more or less to get my basics down any where I learn from is fine?
undone berry
Its been said several times at this point - just go start
graceful basin
A competency of a programmer is not given by his knowledge, but by his ability to gain knowledge quickly
frosty berry
it's hard to tell, really, usually people know a lot of things you don't know about, but often you also know things they don't know about, there is just too many things to know about.
plucky ridge
Yep yep. I tend to guide people towards Automate the Boring Stuff and A Byte of Python, but if you're happier with YouTube stuff then by all means go for it
There isn't a wrong choice.
If you get stuck, you can always come here and ask for clarification
visual shuttle
So there is no "secret" resource you guys use?
graceful basin
There is too much to know, so you need to learn the relevant stuff to a given project. What matters most is getting some knowledge though. You need to get programming, even if badly
graceful basin
Once you start, improvement is simply a matter of time
visual shuttle
Automate the Boring stuff is a long read?
undone berry
I'm pretty sure hardwork whilst learning is the key to learning literally everything
frosty berry
the secret resource is to read the source code of things, you learn a lot more than just reading the doc 🙂
(i wish i did it more, myself)
plucky ridge
@visual shuttle Longish. You don't have to go through all of it, at least like the first half or so
Some of the later stuff is more focused on what you can do to help automate processes for work or what have you
stark prawn
There's all sorts of interesting stuff in pythons sourcecode.
plucky ridge
But the beginner stuff at the start is great
visual shuttle
read the source code of things, - tshirtman, what do you mean by sourcecode?
terse sluice
that can be a little overwhelming for beginners
stark prawn
Like the implementation of contains for ranges
frosty berry
you use a library, you wonder how it work, you get the code for it, and you read the code of the function you are interested into, pretty often that makes you read other parts of the library, and you start building the puzzle in your head, to understand how things fits together
visual shuttle
Could you explain what exactly is a library?
frosty berry
you can even read the code source of python, it's all out there on github, and although i didn't read it, i hear it's really not bad
you might want to google that 🙂
basically it's code that someone wrote and that some other people use in their own projects
visual shuttle
Ah...ok
Lastly, when I am Googling for information etc and YouTubing tutorials how do I filter out the "bad" ones from the good ones?
frosty berry
everybody uses library written by other people, everything is layers and layers of libraries written in the last few decades by other programers, we constantly build on top of what others did before
there is no one hard rule, you see the ones that are helpful or not
there is no official vetting of the information, everybody can write their stuff, that's the internet
stark prawn
Python also comes with a bunch of libraries included, called the standard library.
frosty berry
google tries to put the information it thinks is the most relevant at the top, but it can sometime gets it wrong, if a bad answer is very popular, then it'll be shown by google
visual shuttle
any of these is good, and a lot of other them around the internet are certainly good, but it's hard to say that "any" would be good, there are certainly very poor ones, hence, this list of selected ones, that are known to be good.
I mean @frosty berry you said that not every tutorial is good and I understand and that the selected ones are known to be good but sometimes they do not have the information I need, so then I should Google?
frosty berry
that's why i try to go for the official documentation of the things i use, you can find pretty outdated information on stackoverflow sometime
stark prawn
You can also search for a certain timeframe in google.
Like last ;year for example.
That weeds out most the python 2 answers
visual shuttle
When was python 3 introduced?
visual shuttle
So why do people still use python 2?
stark prawn
Because not everyone wants to convert their huge projects to python3. Many have the attitude of if it's working don't touch it.
frosty berry
there were a few problems with the first few versions of python3, that were fixed later, and also, switching to it required to update your existing code, so it took time
and if you used libraries that depended on python2, then it was even harder to update your own project
visual shuttle
I mean @frosty berry you said that not every tutorial is good and I understand and that the selected ones are known to be good but sometimes they do not have the information I need, so then I should Google?
As for ^, you thought of any answer?
frosty berry
so it took a lot of time to get enough traction to make it easier to write python3 than python2 code
stark prawn
Python 2 support recently officially ended though.
frosty berry
i don't have a magic formula to allow you to decide when something is good quality or not, google does a decent job at giving you decent answers, but nothing is perfect, you'll have to learn how to check information from one source with others, and what to trust, yourself, it's too complex a subject to address this way.
visual shuttle
you'll have to learn how to check information from one source with others, and what to trust, yourself, it's too complex a subject to address this way. - So cross check information from multiple sources?
frosty berry
it can help, yes
stark prawn
Being able to use a search engine to solve problems you previously didn't know how to solve is an important programmer skill.
visual shuttle
And also reading comments like on youtube?
frosty berry
sometime even the official doc is wrong, or unclear, and everybody misinterpret it, except a few inaudible voices, and only reading the code will give you the proper answer, but i trust official docs more than i trust community ones, and i trust code more than i trust documentation.
undone berry
Personally, I don't know if I've ever seen a useful or insightful youtube comment
terse sluice
mostly, i kind of doubt comments on a youtube video are a great source to learn from
frosty berry
comments can also hint at very important information
visual shuttle
And likes on youtube?
visual shuttle
frosty berry
quality is really hard to mesure
undone berry
I think all of the youtube metrics are pretty rubbish
visual shuttle
Like this had 11 Million viewes and 260+ K likes
undone berry
views, likes, comments aren't a fantastic measure of quality
frosty berry
you are looking for an answer that doesn't exist
stark prawn
I think many of us older people here don't really like video tutorials.
frosty berry
yes, i've seen people refer to this course
stark prawn
Seems like a generational thing.
undone berry
I'm curious - how old is your older?
terse sluice
i find videos like those not great and insanely boring
stark prawn
I'm mid 20's
undone berry
I think as videos go, Frecodecamp is pretty solid
visual shuttle
@terse sluice So what videos you find good?
frosty berry
just stop overthinking it, watch this course, and then others, and experiment, you'll discover things that weren't explained to you, and things that were told to you that are wrong, and you'll learn good information from a multitude of flawed sources
visual shuttle
What does "things that were told to you that are wrong, and you'll learn good information from a multitude of flawed sources" mean?
undone berry
it doesn't matter if its bad
frosty berry
somebody will say something, and you'll check and it's wrong
stark prawn
My favourite videos are conference talks but those are usually quite specific information vs general information.
frosty berry
maybe they knew it was wrong, but they tried to make things simple, and maybe they just didn't do their work properly, it happens
undone berry
I don't think lectures/talks are near the same as video tutorials
terse sluice
i haven't really watched many programming videos targeted towards beginners, but most i've seen are really dull and boring ones. just go for it and learn
visual shuttle
somebody will say something, and you'll check and it's wrong - So it is just experimentation?
terse sluice
i really enjoyed harvard's cs50x though, but it covers C before moving into python and other langs
frosty berry
again, you are looking for a simple answer
undone berry
I've enjoyed the MIT courses I've worked through
frosty berry
i'm trying to be nuanced, and you are trying to make me say something simple
visual shuttle
I mean info in tutorials or websites will be wrong but I will figure it out?
frosty berry
experimentation is very much part of the thing, as is cross referencing, and as is asking question, and as is critical thinking, and a lots of other things, that you'll learn over time if you stop overthinking it and get on with your learning 🙂
terse sluice
the best way to figure it out is to start learning
visual shuttle
What i meant is i should not be scared of wrong programming info on the net?
undone berry
no - you shouldn't be scared
frosty berry
you should accept they are a fact of life, and you'll have to learn to avoid them
undone berry
if you get stuff wrong
it won't matter
you'll eventually figure out that its wrong
and find the right solution
terse sluice
it happens, and you should be fine, but this is one of the reasons why we have our !resources list
visual shuttle
you'll have to learn to avoid them - I am having trouble understanding how to know if a particular website info/documentation/youtube video gives wrong or correct information
@frosty berry
frosty berry
i've given partial answers to that, and said there were no definite answers
undone berry
What is stopping you from picking something from !resources and starting?
You seem to be worrying about problems that you might face
visual shuttle
partial answers to that - Like cross checking multiple sources of information?
frosty berry
so at this point i don't think there is anything more i can give you, we are just running circles because you are not content with that answer
i'm starting to get frustrated by this conversation, so i'll move on to other things, this is not productive anymore.
visual shuttle
I am simply asking that cross checking multiple sources of information is important in identifying wrong info @frosty berry ?
undone berry
It seems to me that he's given a pretty clear and unambigous guide as to how you should approach things
just stop overthinking it, watch this course, and then others, and experiment, you'll discover things that weren't explained to you, and things that were told to you that are wrong, and you'll learn good information from a multitude of flawed sources
frosty berry
and i've stated clearly, i believe, that it's part of the answer, and that there is no full and simple answer that i know of, i don't know what more to tell you.
visual shuttle
re is no full and simple answer that i know of, i don't know what more to tell you. - ok
So parts of the learning process are tough right? Experimenting, cross-referencing multiple sources, discovering things explained wrong or not explained? There is no easy-way to learn to code?
frosty berry
you should know that i make quite a decent living as a programmer, and i've contributed to software that quite a few people depend on, so you can definitely go by with incomplete and wrong information, that's what we all do, experienced or not, that's part of the job, if it was easy, it wouldn't paid that well.
visual shuttle
, so you can definitely go by with incomplete and wrong information, that's what we all do, experienced or not, - How do you go by with wrong information? Wouldn't it not work?
frosty berry
sometime wrong information, or your own overlooking of the existing information, or ignorance of where the good information is, will cost you days, or more, of frustration, that's part of the job, you'll have to learn how to manage that, fearing that you might not find the best source to learn is only preventing you, currently, from learning anything, which is the worst possible outcome.
yes, your experimentation would show that the information is wrong, hopefuly pretty quick, but sometime it's wrong in a subtle way that can take you a lot of time to understand.
visual shuttle
but that is fine, i will EVENTUALLY get it
ignorance of where the good information is - "ignorance" , how?
?
@frosty berry
frosty berry
i don't understand the question
you sounds more and more like lisa, that old AI that simulates a discussion
visual shuttle
You said that wrong information, i understand but what do you mean by "ignorance of where the good information is"?
frosty berry
well, the internet is vast
you can't possibly know it all, even google has a hard time keeping up
visual shuttle
so in a nutshell, failing is part of the job?
visual shuttle
you fall, fail, get incomplete information, overlook important stuff, get wrong information from tutorials etc but learn to use your brain and get back up and solve the problem? @frosty berry
frosty berry
yes
visual shuttle
This is the answer i was looking for ^
undone berry
I'm not even really involved in this conversation - and watching you restate the same question in slightly different ways is driving me insane
visual shuttle
That failing is part of the job.
@frosty berry How much are you paid on average for your effort?
frosty berry
comparing compensations is not easy, it depends on the cost of living of the place, taxes, and stuff, but i just moved to the netherlands to a new job, and i'm getting around 100k/y gross now, my previous job in france was around 65k, but that's after some taxes, so it was actually much nearer of the 100k gross i have now that it seems. it means somewhere between 4k and 6k€ of actual money a month, it's really not bad.
visual shuttle
100 K USD?
frosty berry
€, that's more than USD
frosty berry
to a lot of people, yes, i'm rich, and i acknowledge that, but to actually rich people, i'm poor, the level of inequality in the world is crazy
a typical google engineer does more than that, though.
visual shuttle
So a typical google programmer gets paid more?
frosty berry
but the cost of living is higher, and you do need to pay for a lot of things there that are just part of the taxes in france or netherlands, so maybe i have a better standard of living than some of them.
frosty berry
i told you that earlier
visual shuttle
Took how many months to master it?
frosty berry
i have no idea, i'm not even sure i master it now, though i'll admit a lot of people seems to think so
but i'm sure i didn't master it by asking people the kind of questions you asked in the last hour
visual shuttle
If you get paid for what you do, you know your stuff
frosty berry
you'd think so
visual shuttle
Wdym?
frosty berry
i learned by reading doc, and building things, and having things that didn't work, and looking for why, everywhere i could, until i made them work, and then i read more, because there is always more to learn
visual shuttle
yes and cross-checking multiple sources whether some info was incorrect ?
frosty berry
why do you ask, didn't i already confirm that multiple time?
frosty berry
i love helping people, but you are certainly taking a lot of my energy, you should be more careful with the resources you expand.
visual shuttle
Ok
Since you have already answered my question, i will be wise and not ask again
Fair enough?
frosty berry
i think you have asked enough questions for the day, yes
frosty berry
good night
visual shuttle
I think tomorrow morning I will start with the freecodecamp.org YouTube video tutorial I linked earlier and then move on to learning and practicing more
Thanks for your help
Lastly does a python tutorial on macOS apply to my Windows 10 OS? @frosty berry
frosty berry
most of the things, yes, installation should be the only different part
frosty berry
but you don't really need to ask that question to me, anybody can answer
visual shuttle
So there are far better programmers out there than you?
stark prawn
visual shuttle
I just tagged you because I believe we are friends @frosty berry
terse sluice
this is quite the abundence of questions
undone berry
Can I ask where you're from @visual shuttle
undone berry
UK
visual shuttle
you are also not a teen right?
@stark prawn So you also suggest just starting learning and not being afraid to fail and use multiple docs and tutorials to check whether information is correct?
stark prawn
Yes, failing is part of the learning process.
visual shuttle
Since you are younger than tshirtman, where did you start learning from?
A book, official documentation, video?
stark prawn
College
visual shuttle
So you learnt after going to college?
rough sapphire
@visual shuttle my grain of sand here, try writing anything and just google everything you don't know how to do
stark prawn
I'm a software engeneering major, so it's pretty much the point of my study
visual shuttle
So YouTube tutorials are a good place to begin?
visual shuttle
If I can't stand reading a book
rough sapphire
It's not a book
rough sapphire
!resources
royal lakeBOT
rough sapphire
We've got all of these if you're wanting to learn Python 😄
I think they're fine, but an udemy course is guaranteed quality
and the book that course is based on is one of the best books for learning python
undone berry
Udemy in general doesn't guarantee quality of any kind
rough sapphire
I'm sorry
I meant that course is basically guaranteed quality
https://automatetheboringstuff.com is great, sure
Because i trust the guy who made it
stark prawn
If you check #announcements you see it's still free to unlock for a day.
rough sapphire
Al Sweigart's a great guy, yeah
visual shuttle
Is it for python3?
stark prawn
Yes
visual shuttle
@rough sapphire I really prefer youtube videos along with researching what I need to know or recheck whether what is taught is correct, any you recommend?
rough sapphire
I'd be the wrong person to ask, as I'm not a fan of videos 😄
@stark prawn Do you have any?
stark prawn
There's been a bunch mentioned in the past few hours of this I think.
But I also prefer text tutorials.
Way easier to navigate
visual shuttle
text tutorials go over my head
glacial owl
I feel that i'm hitting the hump with learning. There are a lot of things i do not know and can't do, but lot of resources avoid them
visual shuttle
glacial owl
For example, i'm planning to learn async and multiprocessing (finally, i've pushed it back for too long), but the number of tutorials covering them is much lower than for basics (like control flow and working with classes)
visual shuttle
These tutorials I went through on youtube forget to cover basics of the built-in functions in python like min and max etc
glacial owl
Luckily, i've found some nice links and maybe i can think up some nice practice project.
visual shuttle
What would be your advice in this? @rough sapphire
glacial owl
RTFM :)
visual shuttle
?
glacial owl
For some things official docs are incredibly useful
For example, they civer sorting very welk
visual shuttle
but they are SOOO long
glacial owl
Look up what you need and leave the rest for later
visual shuttle
Ok
frosty berry
they are long because they contain a lot of info, and reading them is a lot faster than not reading them
my advice is to learn to love reading, it'll serve you right
visual shuttle
But if the youtube tutorials i followed that were recommended sentdex and corey, since they did not even mention it, how will I know to search for say built-in functions? @glacial owl
frosty berry
how did you learn about min and max then?
visual shuttle
By chance
frosty berry
chance didn't just happen
visual shuttle
?
visual shuttle
I just saw it somewhere on a github page
frosty berry
a lot more, spend all the time you are currently spending asking questions that get you nowhere, doing that instead
that's how you learn about things, by chance, but you get more chance if you spend time reading things
visual shuttle
but you get more chance if you spend time reading things - true
you did something that resulted in learning about them - That something is reading on Google?
frosty berry
and didn't we spend half the evening telling you to do exactly that?
not just google
but everything you can
visual shuttle
not just google
but everything you can
What else is there?
visual shuttle
But doesn't google give all that?
frosty berry
anyway, i though we agreed you had asked enough questions for the day
undone berry
An important skill is to know when to stop asking questions. You don't seem to have got there yourself, so I'll help point you in the right direction. You should stop asking questions now @visual shuttle
visual shuttle
@frosty berry But what else can I do except google? Example? Then I'll go
frosty berry
wikipedia is an example of place i go directly to when i want to learn about a concept
good night
visual shuttle
won't wikipedia show up on a google search?
frosty berry
sometime yes
visual shuttle
sometime yes - Ok
frosty berry
closes discord for the night
rough sapphire
Wow i thought the _hello_ module wasn't that verbose
royal lakeBOT
Hey @rough sapphire!
rough sapphire
do you guys think it is a good idea to put ads on your portfolio website?
undone berry
Seems like a bad idea to me. Your at best going to earn pennies
rough sapphire
ghmph
bleak lintel
ads on a portfolio is a no no
rough sapphire
yes
rough sapphire
Find yourself a traaceback so big that it does this
Hardhats have to pass rigorous tests. If your head can pass those same tests, then you aren't required to wear one. The one pound steel ball dropped from 40' eliminates most participants that try.
rough sapphire
what does that have to do with anything
rough sapphire
@slate shoal Since you didn't need code help and were asking a more generic question of "Where can I learn Python?", figured this was better.
slate shoal
i had been read a book his name is python 3
The book presented many topics but he explained them not well
So i am looking for a book that presents many topics and explain them well
rough sapphire
If you can find anything better than Automate The Boring Stuff, let us know
There's a lot of good stuff out there but it's all about specific frameworks or it's documentation.
sand goblet
Haha that's hilarious
rough sapphire
My big issue with BoTW is that the NPCs feel very one-dimensional
That, and there's the big chance that anyone you bump into is part of the Yiga clan and just wants to kill you
slate shoal
rough sapphire
There's very few people, in my eyes, that I really care to talk to in-game.
vestal briar
Taken out of context
slate shoal
Is this a good course?
cursive cedar
Is this good
vestal briar
Awh you put in-game :(
rough sapphire
@slate shoal No clue, never watched it. Not much of a fan of video tutorials
@vestal briar Yeah, I knew you'd take it out of context 😄
slate shoal
Oh OK
vestal briar
Tut
rough sapphire
anyone aware of what RAFT protocol in databases does..
sand goblet
I mean, most open world games suffer from the unimportant npc problem
But there are a lot of good npcs too
sand goblet
You can
rough sapphire
Idk gdude, I'm of the opinion Beedle is gonna be the next game's final boss.
sand goblet
Hahaha
sand goblet
Beedle is great though
rough sapphire
"YOU REALLY NEED TO STOP BOTHERING ME!"
"Oh who am I kidding, I love the attention"
Okay Beedle, calm down.
sand goblet
Tbh beedle existing in this game makes me feel like this is the wind waker timeline even more
They still haven't confirmed it
Hnng
rough sapphire
The timelines with LoZ are all sorts of strange
rough sapphire
LTTP is still the best one, hands down.
rough sapphire
"Oh man, I beat the game!"
gentle moss
Lunk to the Post?
rough sapphire
"Wait what the heck is this dark world"
sand goblet
Close enough
sand goblet
Well you do need to go there to get to the tower dungeon
rough sapphire
@gentle moss legond of zelder: a lunk ta da post
sand goblet
Haha
rough sapphire
Played a demo of Cadence of Hyrule. That was neat
sand goblet
It's a really fun game but it lasts for like an hour or two
rough sapphire
I really can't see me spending $60 for a Link's Awakening redo though.
gentle moss
ligan of ziggler: a lump tea toe pest
rough sapphire
That game was the #1 reason I didn't play new games for a while
sand goblet
So many QoL improvements I don't even
rough sapphire
||"WHAT DO YOU MEAN IT'S A DREAM? WELL I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN. LINK'S /AWAKENING/!"||
rough sapphire
I was so mad as a kid at that
sand goblet
I was a little sad they got rid of the photo guy
But they replaced it with the dungeon maker thing
Which is honestly really quite good
rough sapphire
Photo guy was gimmicky though, just for the GameBoy Camera
sand goblet
They've been thinking of making a Zelda Maker (a la Mario Maker) given just how well received the dungeon maker was
Which, YES
TAKE MY MONEY
rough sapphire
sand goblet
Yup
rough sapphire
That'd be neat
sand goblet
They also added a power up to Mario maker that lets you be link, which is hilarious
rough sapphire
Mario Maker was less of a wow to me, since I've been seeing auto mario for.. over a decade now.
Maybe two?
sand goblet
Yeah, I got it but I just couldn't get inspired to make anything
And I'm not a great 2D Mario player
rough sapphire
I mean, I look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDWJFMXOY88&t=20s and I go.. Yeah, I'm never getting to that level.
sand goblet
Haha, yeah, mechanically there's quite a lot to it
rough sapphire
That's the Olympics of auto mario
sand goblet
That is ridiculous
rough sapphire
It's amazing
sand goblet
It would have been better with the music blocks in MM though
rough sapphire
Oh sure, but this video is like 15 years old
sand goblet
Yeah, true
sand goblet
home assistant truly integrates with everything
I was kind of amused by the coronavirus integration but it's kind of nice to have stats for
solid pollen
What assistant is that?
sand goblet
Home Assistant
solid pollen
Ohh, python! 
sand goblet
Yup!
fossil solar
I never knew so many people had recovered
plucky ridge
More people get killed by the flu than by Corona
Not to say people still shouldn't be careful, mind
But it's mainly being reported because of the speed at which it's spreading
undone berry
The speed and unexpectedness of it is whats really bad for the world
plucky ridge
Right
thorn snow
This is slick: https://codepen.io/juliangarnier/pen/idhuG
solid pollen
The Corona virus have a propagation rate of 2.5, which is just huuge
solid pollen
1500 lines of CSS? It isn't a lot tbh
solid pollen
Bulma has a 10k lines CSS file for comparison
wind karma
Bulma is a framework
thorn snow
css lines are short
That thing is very little when minified
Only 42 lines of js is the actual achievement
undone berry
Where are the burgers from?
autumn herald
Quick
a belgian fastfood, bought by Burger King
they are truly not the best, but it have the taste of dirty while not being too high in calories
and 1€
undone berry
I guess cheap burgers are sollid as a reward, or as reconciliation - just don't take them to the interview
undone berry
May the burgers bring you luck for your interview
autumn herald
they bring the proteins i need
solid pollen
@autumn herald have done an interview for quick themselves?
solid pollen
Haha
sinful turtle
what GUI library does home assistant use (if any)?
sand goblet
It doesn't have a native UI, it's all web-based
sinful turtle
oh ok nvm
rough sapphire
fun fact
the japanese word for mercury, i just learned, is a combination of the character "water" and "silver"
水銀
i was reading an article about diet
graceful basin
quicksilver
graceful basin
the chemical Hg comes from that
undone berry
yeah, most element symbols come from the ancient greek
Plumbum -> pb -> lead is my favourite
gentle moss
plumbum just makes me think of plumbuses
rough sapphire
kanji are dope man
tulip palm
@undone berry plumbum is latin :D
glass gorge
What is wrong with basic tutorials (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
Watching a typescript video on Pluralsight, and he just goes on about bootstrap, knockout.js, what let is and soo much non ts things. I'm here for TS not this bais
/r
solid pollen
I don't think they actually pay for it haha
Probably a stolen credit card or something
Or a child
tribal aurora
yeah also,I think so
vapid bluff
anyone know if there's a way to remove this 'restore previous session' button?
keep absent mindedly clicking it when trying to open a new window
im too used to the chrome menu layout, so it's muscle memory to select the last item when i want a new incognito window
royal fractal
Idk if you can remove it (not a firefox user) but you could get familiar with the keyboard shortcuts. I use Ctrl-N and Ctrl-T all the time to create new windows/tabs and it's faster than having to both clicking on stuff
vapid bluff
i find clicking faster personally
it's usually more convenient than switching attention to the keyboard
graceful basin
ye, I C-S-n for incognito
sand goblet
Yeah I also use the keyboard shortcuts
But I touch type so I just know where the keys are
vapid bluff
is there any way to customize menus in firefox at all?
sand goblet
I don't know, I've never needed to
bright idol
vapid bluff
what about the menu though
hmm, looks like it was doable in the past at least
that extension is now gone
royal fractal
@vapid bluff I downloaded Firefox and managed to do it
royal fractal
yes
#appMenuRestoreLastSession {
display: none;
}
just have that in there and you're golden
you can customize the menu quite a bit
vapid bluff
cheers dude
royal fractal
here's the resource i used in case you want to take a look at it: https://www.userchrome.org/how-create-userchrome-css.html
vapid bluff
oh neat ty
i was going down a reddit rabbit hole, reading about browser toolbox and all that
this looks much more to the point
huzzah! @royal fractal
while im here think i might get rid of the copy/paste/cut area too
seems utterly useless
royal fractal
Good job! Customize it to your heart's content
#appMenu-edit-controls,
#appMenu-edit-controls+toolbarseparator,
#appMenuRestoreLastSession {
display: none;
}
leaden kernel
bruh
rough sapphire
😅
vestal briar
I got a mashup of lola (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LemG0cvc4oU) and amish paradise (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOfZLb33uCg, the best parody) stuck in my head somehow
light hawk
hello
can someone tell me how i can learn python
independantly
from videos
like which channel or which website
royal lakeBOT
light hawk
for free*
oak tangle
There are plenty of free resources on there
!tempmute 487880387553656842 24H I just told you we don't allow recruitement and certainly not for dodgy stuff.
royal lakeBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @maiden light until 2020-03-05 16:02 (23 hours and 59 minutes).
rough sapphire
🙄
vestal briar
Time to reverse engineer a cheap syma drone and 3d print a new case to hold a pi zero
Then load some speshul stuff on there to make it (legally) hack wifi
undone berry
You strap one of these on to the drone, except instead of bang, its a contract the network owner has to sign
vapid bluff
step 1. buy own island step 2. establish own nation on said island step 3. make it legal to hack wifi there step 4. profit
rough sapphire
both good options
i think i'm going to go for the second one, seems like less effort, would need to contact my lawyer to make a contract for the first option
undone berry
I'd imagine both would require some level of legal consulting
vapid bluff
might not even need an island
vatican city is considered a nation and it's 0.44 km^2
according to google :)
undone berry
You get crazy people trying to do it with oil rigs or fields in texas
vapid bluff
literally just buy a plot of land and declare independence
rough sapphire
huh, so there are 2.27 popes per square kilometer in vatican city
vestal briar
@rough sapphire Become the police and storm wherever the IEEE hq is
rough sapphire
so this is your plan?
vestal briar
Can't be illegal because YOU ARE THE LAW
Nah, we've stuck together some aircrack-ng tools and iwconifgs in a script and using it for a school project
Just automatically fetches networks and tried to crack into valid ones
rough sapphire
that seems like whatever the opposite of legal is
vestal briar
For demonstrations we'll just restrict it to a whitelist of routers it's allowed to crack
Well for anything really
We've got some phone hotspots and a cheapo router to run it on
Just on a drone so we can mess with a drone in school
vestal briar
OK, sketch for it is done
Guess the internals will have multiple layers for another battery and 30x30 control board
vestal briar
And messed around in cad for an hour, now got a basic drone frame
I have seem some 5mm diameter screws somewhere so I guess i'll use them? Plan is to have a baseplate to mount motors and leds then have a removable box that has all electronics and batteries
rough sapphire
that sounds very interesting
I've entertained the idea of putting directional antennas on a drone and have it act like a relay between someone on the ground and a distant wifi network
so one can connect to wifi networks quite far away without requiring direct line of sight to it
vestal briar
Could also try that 👀
I have made the baseplate mostly now, it will be just mirrored 4 times for the real thing. Screw thread on right will be the main basis for electronics (m5 screw)
rough sapphire
what software do you use?
vestal briar
Fusion 360 with a school license
Basically first time using it outside of 2 lessons worth (80 mins) of messing around
sand goblet
That's a fancy poop knife
vestal briar
I prefer scissors as do any civilised folk.
rough sapphire
I'll check it out. I used to mess with autodesk's 123D a few years back but for whatever reason they discontinued it
vestal briar
👍
I think i'm going to have to steal someone elses motor mount, this drone looks way too complicated on the inside for something like what I have now
vestal briar
Nevermind
All the fancy stuff is as 1 unit so I just have to make attachment points
Just got to make a weird attachment point for it now
verbal rivet
Anyone here got some experience the jitclass decorator
plucky ridge
jelly-is-tasty?
terse sluice
what kind of jelly isn't wobbly?
sand goblet
american jelly
stark prawn
I believe the thing they have overseas, jelly made of peanutbutter, isn't wobbly.
undone berry
Americans I believe call jam jelly
plucky ridge
Jam is made from the fruit itself, jelly is made from the juice
That's how it's always been explained to me at least
terse sluice
jelly is very tasty
sinful copper
there's also "preserves", which has solid chunks of fruit in it
anyway, i've always considered jam to have a smoother texture than jelly, because it's usually less firm (and therefore more spreadable), it's not really 'not smooth' because it's made with fruit puree, not chunky
wheat lynx
And there are conserves, but I have no clue what the difference is
graceful basin
ye, jam goes on buttered bread
sinful copper
since jelly is more solid it tends to break up into chunks when you try to spread it
vapid bluff
picklings?
glacial owl
For me jelly is solid dessert from juice and jelatine and jam is berries (whole or in paste form) in syrup.
Tea with lemon and raspberry jam is heavenly.
Boiled berries/fruits/dried fruits with some sugar is kompot and it's awesome cold drink.
vestal briar
90% finished with this bloody drone
Still need some sort of mounting point apart from them weird conical screw bits
rough sapphire
you should probably clean the blood off before you present it to your lecturers
edgy magnet
Omg @tropic owl hi
tropic owl
undone berry
Virgin media is so shit that their service status page 404s. The service isn't down, they just can't find it right now
hollow leaf
=p
gentle moss
networks can get in the fucking bin today
a tenant's wifi broke, so i went to check it out
they've put a router on the network to serve wifi.
rough sapphire
networks have been in a lit bin for a while now
gentle moss
i go to check out the router to see why it's all fucked
all the settings are normal, should work, it gets dhcp from the network
can't ping shit
plug my laptop into the port it's in, same thing
dhcp but no connectivity
go into the comms room and plug directly into the switch, dhcp and connectivity, but super laggy like 7-8 second pings to the gateway
reboot the switch, everything's back to normal
rough sapphire
was the gateway on fucking mars?
gentle moss
go back into the office, plug into the port, same shit
i suspect the port is fucked or something
and it's fucking up the switch somehow
cable tester doesn't show any errors though
i'm very not amused
vestal briar
My mobile network is also being pretty shit today
Wifi was down for 15 mins at a time regularly yesterday with virgin media
gentle moss
the cameras scanned an estimated 8,600 faces in Oxford Circus, checking them against a watchlist of 7,292 people. The AI tech flagged eight as being possible matches; seven turned out to be false positives, five of whom were actually stopped by the cops and two dismissed as obvious errors.
stark prawn
I can already see them arguing the single hit is worth the downsides.
gentle moss
you mean like this?
“Right now the loudest voices in the debate seem to be the critics. Sometimes highly inaccurate or highly ill informed," she said. "I would say it is for critics to justify to the victims of those crimes why police should not be allowed to use tech lawfully and proportionally to catch criminals."
"justify to the victims"
smh my head
maybe it'd be good if the government funded the police better so they didn't have to axe 20,000 police workers over the last decade
plucky ridge
Someone who didn't know any better
gentle moss
hey that looks like the "backup system" a user i know uses
gusty oar
who likes boardgames
plucky ridge
This guy
gusty oar
😄 awesome
rough sapphire
7 wonders is awsum
gusty oar
i like secret hitler its very popular but
sand goblet
Yeah!
Secret Hitler is pretty good
Banned in a few stores in the US though because snowflakes
gusty oar
hmm i didn't know 😄
plucky ridge
Can't imagine it'd be selling well (read as at all) in Germany either
sand goblet
Most likely not
But I think it's hilarious that the US stores only banned it a few months ago
Having sold it for literally years
gusty oar
maybe they are playing another version of secret hitler
rough sapphire
there was a video on reddit just two or three days ago where "papa" had bought his grandchild Mein Kampf for christmas....
sand goblet
That's an old meme
rough sapphire
the child had wished for "Minecraft"
rough sapphire
I don't think so
plucky ridge
Good joke though
sand goblet
Well elderly people can get doddery
gusty oar
this game is good too
interesting but monopoly has very low score in boardgamegeek 😄
boardgame fans hate of this game
sand goblet
Too casual, probably
gusty oar
yeah every monopoly version has same idea
hasbro changes theme and publish same game again 😄
undone berry
that game is rubbish - difficult to learn with unengaging gameplay
sand goblet
Yeah, it's like the Pokemon of the board game world
There is, amusingly, also a Pokemon monopoly
gusty oar
😄 yeah hasbro made "monopoly deal" too.its basically with place cards of monopoly
sand goblet
Tabletop simulator is pretty serviceable
tawdry tangle
^
sand goblet
We could play Betrayal if we could get 4 people
gusty oar
yea i have tabletop. it has every f' game ever 😄
gusty oar
pandemic is awesome i agreed
plucky ridge
Fair enough, can't please them all
sand goblet
Pandemic isn't my thing
gusty oar
its in top ten in bgg 😄
sand goblet
Well, do you like pop music?
plucky ridge
Wonder if that has to do with current events....
sand goblet
Totally, yeah
plucky ridge
Oh I wonder....
sand goblet
Plague inc is making bank
undone berry
difficult is the opposite of what boardgames should be
plucky ridge
Organ Attack?
undone berry
simple rules that open up lots of paths are the most fun
gusty oar
by difficult i mean complex
gusty oar
opposite of monopoly 😄
sand goblet
It's a card game about releasing software
plucky ridge
That sounds tedious and monotonous. -gasp- Just like the real thing!
undone berry
secret hitler games are pretty damn good
undone berry
I'm so bad at them - I always talk too much and get myself killed/whatever