Remind me, does d.py require a string or an int for channel id's and the like?
#ot1-perplexing-regexing
plucky ridge
rough sapphire
int now
plucky ridge
Gotcha
vestal briar
It's nice how consistant minecraft has been with updates
All good quality for years now
plucky ridge
Which is honestly surprising. I can't imagine they're much more money to be made from it
Through the game itself, I mean
Merch and spin-offs sure
vestal briar
Yeah
Though minecraft is still suprisingly popular for younger players still
Constant new players
plucky ridge
Fair point. And I guess that'd be a relatively steady trickle
Probably sustains it enough to keep patches going if nothing else
Is there a subscription or did I imagine that
rough sapphire
there is
vestal briar
Realms
plucky ridge
Ah, that would do it then
wheat lynx
They released Minecraft Earth recently
rough sapphire
in bedrock edition
yeah minecraft earth <3
Never got time to test it out , will do surely
vestal briar
Even if the base game doesn't profit much anymore, franchise would make up a ton as you said
wheat lynx
Doesn't seem too good though. Haven't played it
vestal briar
Though £18 per sale is quite a bit if it's a million or more each year
solid pollen
It is pretty good actually
plucky ridge
I wanted to like it but I just don't have that creative drive
I know that's what keeps people coming back to it
wheat lynx
I used to love it, i played it all the time
vestal briar
I come back every year or so
Have a couple weeks playing it then burn out sort of thing
coral void
That rounding error reads like javascript
Javascript stores all numbers even integers as 64bit floats
So what's likely happening is the sqlite browser is converting the integer into a number, then that to a string, which causes the precision loss.
solid pollen
In today’s episode on how to make a language inefficient, let’s the JS case!
coral void
Even better, they've "fixed" this with BigInt, but AFAIR that's not standard enough for use yet
vestal briar
So much bad has came from js
vestal briar
I mean it did revolutionise the internet
coral void
Just in firefox console
vestal briar
But can we really forgive it for electron?
rough sapphire
Thanks for reminding i am on ram eating chrome
coral void
@plucky ridge just so you see this ^
plucky ridge
Good to know
solid pollen
I mean, Javascript have Java in his name, how could it be a good language haha
rough sapphire
Its not my laptop so its ok
plucky ridge
Irritating, but good to know.
rough sapphire
I prefer Opera personally < 3
vestal briar
Worse than chrome
coral void
Opera used to be an interesting, separate browser
now they're just a chrome reskin ._.
solid pollen
Heyy, I love like chrome
coral void
A deathblow to the internet, truly
vestal briar
Horrible but at least it's own thing
rough sapphire
Opera worse than chrome ?
vestal briar
Yes
solid pollen
Yeah
vestal briar
Well it's got all the google trackers
rough sapphire
nah keep your advice youself in that
vestal briar
With a nice load of chinise ones ontop
"GAMING BROWSER" Ok then..
No such thing as a free vpn
solid pollen
Anyway, the worst is Safari
rough sapphire
If you don't pay for the product, you are the product ```Also it's windows only, what??
solid pollen
Really?
vestal briar
If a reskinned chromium can't run on mac or linux, your software has problems
rough sapphire
In BETA only
vestal briar
And?
vestal briar
Doesn't mean it needs to take away os support
solid pollen
Nah, opera run on linux
rough sapphire
^
plucky ridge
you don't game on Arch tho
Wait what?
vestal briar
Talking about the weird gaming browser
plucky ridge
Ah
solid pollen
vestal briar
rough sapphire
ahhh thats hawt thats hawt
vestal briar
?
solid pollen
Starting pretty wrong, their website is in french even if my navigator explicitly ask for an English page
solid pollen
If it was any other kind of website that would be okay, but we are talking about a web browser here
Yeah opera
Clearly
vestal briar
It tracks @solid pollen 's location so it thinks it wants french
rough sapphire
^
vestal briar
Even if every shread of browser metadata says he wants english
solid pollen
Yeah, but I explicitly turned by bowser to load English page
And it is highly highly triggering me
rough sapphire
it clearly says EARLY ACCESS
rough sapphire
Ahh am just wasting my time here
vestal briar
What point are you trying to make?
solid pollen
No, I'm sorry, but it is saying accès anticipé
Anyway, a product with a lot of flaws can not be okay if it written EARLY ACCESS
wheat lynx
Its an excuse for not working properly
vestal briar
Yep
Unique UI
Not really a good thing for a daily use software
And the vpn doesn't inspire confidence
solid pollen
Their UI is garbage, looks like Asus' Rog UIs
rough sapphire
Works perfectly for me , even thought it is EARLY ACCESS
solid pollen
Your BIOS is better at browsing the internet? :)
vestal briar
Sure, why not :P
wheat lynx
I just don't see the need for a gaming browser. What is the point?
solid pollen
Is Firefox open source?
solid pollen
semi-trusted
vestal briar
E.g. Chrome
Still googleified but at least it's not straight up malware for example
undone berry
Opera uses the chrome rendering engine, so is about as open source as chrome or Firefox
tired osprey
what do you mean about as open source as firefox
here the firefox git
how much more open source does it get? @undone berry
solid pollen
Chromium the rendering engine is open source, but I'm not sure if it is the most interesting part
tired osprey
yeah i agree that chrome is only open source ish
firefox though is completely open
i mean firefox is licensed under several licenses, including GPL
if they werent oss they could hardly do that
undone berry
Sure
Didn't remember ff was completely open actually
But it is on par with chrome
And edge I assume?
solid pollen
Edge is useless anyway
undone berry
Actually. I think it's open source
tired osprey
i mean microsoft is rewriting edge into a chromion derivative
undone berry
Yeah
from 5s on Google, it seems like Edge will be fully open sourced or is open source
tired osprey
so in a bit of time we will only have_
chromium likes
firefox
apple web kits
and thats it
solid pollen
Microsoft open sourcing their work? Meh
undone berry
I remember Firefox saying it was a bit sketchy when Edge announced the switch
because Chromium will almost completely dominate
solid pollen
Although they don't all use the same JS engine
vestal briar
We need a word for "open source" but still heavily company backed and monopolistic
solid pollen
Proprietary software?
vestal briar
No
It's still technically open source
Take chromium or android for example
Both heavily backed by google, basically monopolies of their fields and includes parts to make money from the end user
Is this the destinction between free software (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software) and open source?
undone berry
Yes - free software doesn't necessarily have publicly available source
vestal briar
That's freeware
Free software: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software
Freeware: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeware
By the looks of it
undone berry
yeah
you're right
the linked page explains it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software#Naming_and_differences_with_Open_Source
undone berry
also, the 4 freedoms below it
sand goblet
Tons of free, open source software is indeed created by large companies
And we do use a lot of it
Not just chromium, but also software like nginx
An additional classifier for "open source but a company" is basically useless
At the end of the day, any software that meets the open source definition affords you the same rights and freedoms regardless of where it comes from
A classifier like this is just going to scare people away from the open source community
"open source, BUT"
vestal briar
So it's it is "open source, BUT", why not list it as that
Looks like open source means you can edit the code, no matter motives for publishing in the first place or what it actually incurs to the end user
And free software means more gnu freedom?
Looks like free software is the term I was looking for, "Open source" and its associated campaign mostly focus on the technicalities of the public development model and marketing free software to businesses, while taking the ethical issue of user rights very lightly or even antagonistically.
sand goblet
that's the open source definition
all the licenses on this site adhere to that definition
you'll find it's basically all of them
vestal briar
Yes? Wasn't talking about what open source was; only what subcatagory to fit non-ethically-correct but open source software into
sand goblet
I'm not sure how "backed by a company" isn't ethically correct
are mozilla projects like Firefox "not ethically correct"? How about Signal and their e2e-encrypted messaging stuff?
What about programming languages like Kotlin, or useful software like Nginx?
I dunno why you're phobic of things touched by companies, haha
Since Python Discord was/is sponsored by Beardfist, are the open source projects here "not ethically correct"?
you've got some real logical gymnastics to do
undone berry
I also think not-ethically-correct is a vast oversimplification of most things - I could see google's management of Android as a bit iffy, but I don't see how it can really be seen as unethical at all - by using say Kotlin, you're not supporting Google
sand goblet
you're not supporting Google anyway, Kotlin is a JetBrains project
sand goblet
I'm pretty sure it is, yeah
to be fair, most languages are
But yeah I really don't understand this paranoia and nobody has explained it yet
solid pollen
Paranoia of what?
plucky ridge
I'm assuming the paranoia with Google being this huge information gathering machine
solid pollen
Rhoo
I'm tired of people being scared by Google information gathering
What is the problem with having machine, not humans, analyzing your search queries??
plucky ridge
I don't think it's the fact that they're just watching your search queries
Your emails, your messages, your location, your habits
It's very "Big Brother"
But instead of trying to control your life they're just trying to control what you buy
solid pollen
Yeah, yeah, a lot of other things, but you know, they provide free services
plucky ridge
I'm not disagreeing with you, but I understand where others are concerned.
And we need people to be concerned to keep things in check
Both sides of the scales must have weight
solid pollen
And you don't have more ads, just targeted ones
orchid summit
if you don’t want personalized ads just use duckduckgo 
sand goblet
DDG's results are terrible in comparison sadly
@plucky ridge The guy wants a completely new definition for open source projects maintained or started by a company
The only reason I've gotten so far is that it would be a tag for projects so that people know they're unethical
I'm still waiting for an explanation lol
solid pollen
So is it about Google paranoia type of things?
sand goblet
The implication was that all open source projects related to companies are unethical
solid pollen
Because compagnies need to earn money I guess
sand goblet
I don't see how that relates though
Open source is open source, by definition, no strings attached
If there are strings attached theeeen it isn't open source
solid pollen
I don't know, I think the same as you
lofty dirge
Just about all open source is open source with companies
I can’t think of single project well known project that isn’t
frosty berry
a lot of open sources projects are not backed by any company
python is a good example, it's not backed by any particular company
some companies contribute engineer time to the project or money to the psf, but that's about it
vestal briar
Open source doesn't mean "open source"?
Not sure what you mean by no strings attached
sand goblet
I already linked you the OSI definition
open source as a concept can't be selectively applied, is what I'm saying
your license covers everyone, regardless of circumstances or anything else, or it's not open source
rough sapphire
Open source by definition can't say "Everyone can use it except Jack, because Jack's a jerk."
You can replace Jack with anyone, for any reason, and it's still not open source by the OSI definition.
pine vector
looks at Jack. rolls eyes...
rough sapphire
Damn it, Jack!
rough sapphire
great Scott
rough sapphire
@rough sapphire you have homework and you want someone to do it for you?
yes
lol
why don't you do it yourself what does the other person get out of it?
Good idea
But you need money
@rough sapphire Why would they need money?
People don't do homework of another people for free
im hella broke]
Then just do it yourself
@rough sapphire What part are you having an issue with**?**
rough sapphire
FUCK
accidentally totally wiped my certbot config
well... time to set up 20 domains manually again
RIP
totally fucked my certbot install in the process as well
ImportError: cannot import name 'constants'
dog pls
rough sapphire
i had sudo pip installed a bunch of certbot shit a while back and it came back to bite me in the ass
all is well now
well, i lie
all is not well
because i deleted all of my certs by accident
and now I can't get new certs because the nginx certbot plugin first tries to validate the nginx config before getting new certs
which... doesn't work, because the config is invalid due to missing certs
FUCK
rough sapphire
solid pollen
Reboot or reinstall it
solid pollen
Save them somewhere safe first, and then copy paste them after
rough sapphire
no dog, i'll still have broken configs then
the problem is not certbot
the problem is that all of my certs are missing
nginx refuses to listen on ssl if it doesn't have a ssl cert location
it refuses to accept a location if the file doesn't exist
the file can't exist if certbot can't renew it
certbot can't renew it if the nginx config fails to validate
you see where i'm going with this
solid pollen
Then, delete the line related to the certificate in the config
I got the same problem with certbot some times ago
rough sapphire
fixed it with the power of sed
solid pollen
\o/
safe lagoon
anyone familiar with the US education system here?
sand goblet
Better off just asking your question
safe lagoon
so, suppose you apply to a college under early decision, and they admit you, but you still cannot afford to attend
can you request that the application be withdrawn?
asking because its highly unlikely that I will be able to afford college in the US as an international student without at least an 80% scholarship
plucky ridge
@safe lagoon Possible, but you might discuss with them various options. See if they have any grants, tax credits, work studies, etc.
A lot of them might be willing to work with you to find something that works
And sometimes they have special funds for international students
undone berry
where are you based @safe lagoon?
safe lagoon
India @undone berry
rough sapphire
arey Bhai Bhai Bhai Bhai
@safe lagoon
safe lagoon
@AG#7863 bhai i don't do hindi
I'm from the south
solid pollen
If it says it came from the Blender Foundation, can I trust it?
frosty berry
hm, it's the official website and it's https, so the probability you got served something nasty is low, so i'd say windows is being paranoid, but checking the checksum is a good idea
i can check if i get the same checksum here
solid pollen
We are physically pretty close, but I guess it is worth trying
bb6e03ef79d2d7273336f8cfcd5a3b3f blender-2.81a-linux-glibc217-x86_64.tar.bz2
9604cd22f0964f8b51af25d921194150 blender-2.81a-macOS.dmg
8ae886aceeff7e84ab5e38f0f082d81f blender-2.81a-windows64.msi
955f0a74d2b09000d6bfebf8b8314807 blender-2.81a-windows64.zip```It does match
frosty berry
yeah, for me too
frosty berry
i didn't know that 🙂
solid pollen
A Stichting is a Dutch legal entity with limited liability, but no members or share capital, that exists for a specific purpose. This form of entity makes it possible to separate functions of ownership and control. Okay, make sense now haha
frosty berry
ah ok
oak tangle
I think the best translation for "stichting" would be "non-profit foundation", although I'm not a lawyer and do not know the exact meaning of "foundation"
A stichting has a specific, non-commercial purpose
sinful copper
according to wikipedia the literal meaning is just "foundation", and there are few limits on what the purpose can be
it's probably different in terms of specific legal constructs from other countries' "foundation" but that seems more like a difference in law than concept
oak tangle
No, a "stichting", at least in the Netherlands, it's quite literally a legal entity that's non-commercial
I'm not sure how good your Dutch is, but I can link you the legal definitions if you like
sinful copper
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stichting says it's been used to protect commercial corporations from hostile takeover, i don't think "non-commercial" in the English sense is flexible enough to cover that purpose, though it does have the limitation "official goal cannot include making payments to anybody, except for charitable causes"
oak tangle
The stichting itself cannot have a commercial goal, although it can make a profit. However, that profit may never benefit the owners of the stichting, but must always be used for the goal of the stichting as recorded in a notarial deed; you can't make payments to the owners.
Here's some information (in Dutch): https://www.justitia.nl/stichtingsrecht
shell blade
@sand goblet have you started playing dawn yet?
sand goblet
Dawn?
shell blade
Destiny 2 season of the Dawn
sand goblet
Oh
No, I was waiting for someone to play with
but I don't think I finished shadowkeep yet either
shell blade
Oh we played all weekend we were wondering where you were
shell blade
Were dominating in gambits now me Sommer and known lol
And nightfalls 950 are easy now
sand goblet
I haven't played since the 24th of November so I'm probably a good distance behind
shell blade
Okies well this weekend we will get you caught up then gear comes fast
sand goblet
No, probably not
shell blade
Oh?
shell blade
Ohhh gotcha
I have to work the 23 24 then a week off almost
I kinda feel bad now should have messaged you I thought you knew 😔
sand goblet
I have nearly 2 weeks off from work starting the 24th, but we have family over
also I saw you guys playing, lol, I just figured you were doing your own thing
I wasn't gonna crash a party
shell blade
It's a clan lol you are not crashing anything
pine vector
@sand goblet it's a trap. They only want to keep you awake foooorever. lulz
sand goblet
It's always a trap
shell blade
Lol
pine vector
Gear does come pretty quick though.
shell blade
Omg this lady is trying to catch her dog that got out and the dog is not having it
solid pollen
Someone didn't protected the dining room enough?
vestal briar
Nice fire
solid pollen
At least there is less people to pay at the end of the month
vestal briar
He's still making a profit
Well until the prisoners starve from lack of food from lack of cooks
solid pollen
You loose money when people get out of jail too right?
vestal briar
Yes
solid pollen
Yay, the snowsgiving server is down again!
fringe marsh
Hey does anyone know how to code in Visual Studio Code in C++? I can't seem to get my code to run, even though my code is accurate. It starts by saying launch.json doesn't exist, when it does, and i need something called MinGW or something along those lines. Please help! @ or DM me if you can.
pine vector
@fringe marsh C++ is a compiled language. mingw is a windows-compatible compiler, and must be installed (its not built-in).
Visual Studio (not Code) comes with a C++ compiler, i believe. you may have better luck with that. there is a free community version.
fringe marsh
Ok, I'll give that a go. Thanks @pine vector
pine vector
just opened VS. yep, C++ is available.
fringe marsh
@pine vector I can't figure out how to run it. Do you know how?
pine vector
run, what exactly?
pine vector
There is a green right-facing arrow in the toolbar. click that, and it should compile and run the code. F5 key should also work...
fringe marsh
I did that, and it says the System File cannot be specified
pine vector
🤷♂️ sorry... does it give you any hints as to which system file?
pine vector
hmm. i haven't tried to integrate OneDrive with VS...that could be the issue?
fringe marsh
I'll try and move the file. One second.
So I got the same error. I'm still a little confused. How did you create your file? I feel as if I may have created something different. It is a .cpp file though
pine vector
i just made a C# project. i don't have the C++ utils installed.
fringe marsh
Do I need to install something seperate for C++ do you think?
pine vector
did you select the C++ stuff when you installed VS?
fringe marsh
I believe so. I'll run the installer again.
pine vector
you can check. goto Tools->Get Tools and Features
fringe marsh
Ok let me try that
pine vector
should have a blue check mark on C++
assuming they didn't change it in 2019, if thats what you're using
fringe marsh
My VS is updating right now, so it'll be a minute
pine vector
hehe. such is the way... 😄
shell blade
@pine vector new obliskd can be done on nessus and EdZ
fringe marsh
I have to go have dinner gimme one sec
shell blade
new festive season too
pine vector
@shell blade i was wondering when some new ones were going to open up...
i've been trying to be a good boy tonight. but still haven't gotten much work done... 😄
shell blade
lol yeah, just thought i would let you know
pine vector
i presheate it! really wants to D2 now...
shell blade
im logged in about to eat in 10 min then i can really play
fringe marsh
@pine vector I'm back now, and I still can't seem to get it to work
pine vector
still same error?
fringe marsh
Yah
pine vector
hmm. it seems like it can't find the compiled file...
what does the output say when you change it from debug to build?
fringe marsh
Where do I do that?
pine vector
the output window (looks like a terminal). should be in the bottom. there is a dropdown that likely says 'debug'...
also, did you put it in a project, or is it just the single file?
fringe marsh
I don't really know what I am doing
pine vector
is this your first foray into C/C++?
pine vector
oh. what environment is your previous C++ experience in?
fringe marsh
just a little on a random website just to learn it a little bit
But I wanna do it in vs now
pine vector
honestly, most of my Visual Studio experience is with embedded code, and in Atmel Studio (which is based on VS).
fringe marsh
Do you know how to run stuff in VS?
pine vector
like i said earlier, F5 is what I've always used.
fringe marsh
When you create a new C++ file, do you just create the file, and then go in it, its empty, go to new file, then do a .cpp file?
pine vector
i would probably start with a new project, rather than a single file. but it should work either way.
as long as you aren't requesting non-standard lib stuff.
microsoft docs can be painful sometimes, but this might help: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/windows/walkthrough-creating-a-standard-cpp-program-cpp?view=vs-2019
fringe marsh
I created a new project with premade code, from VS themselves so i can just click run and it'll run, but I'm still getting the same error
Now I'm getting a bunch of console errors that say cannot open **********.h or something
** as in a random word or something
pine vector
did you install VS to the OneDrive?
fringe marsh
No
pine vector
k. just making sure.
fringe marsh
I don't know how to fix it
pine vector
i wish i could be of more help.
fringe marsh
Thanks for the help @pine vector ! Also I was just looking and noticed your role is Adafruit, what is that? I know what an Adafruit is tho
fringe marsh
Partner: Adafruit
pine vector
oh. This server and Adafruit's server are both part of Discord's Partner program, as well as partners with each other. I'm a mod on Adafruit's server, so they tagged me with the role.
fringe marsh
Oh that's cool!
swift meadow
You fix the issue?
You'd want to start by verifying that the location in your error box there matches your build output target
You can also adjust where the debugger looks for the program you want to debug
@fringe marsh
Your program was compiled, the debugger is just looking for it in the wrong place.
Nothing wrong with the visual studio install. It's a configuration problem.
fringe marsh
@swift meadow How do I adjust where the program looks to run the file?
also didnt mean to friend you, you can remove me if you'd like
fringe marsh
Also @swift meadow I'm getting all these errors. I get the source location not found or something but also these
#include <iostream>
int main()
{
std::cout << "Hello World!\n";
}
Thats the code
rough sapphire
python discord server
fringe marsh
Hey I asked someone and they said I could go here since this is off-topic. I can't find anywhere else to ask
fringe marsh
I know I knew you were joking 🙂
swift meadow
Reading now
fringe marsh
Thanks
swift meadow
Which version of visual studio are you using?
fringe marsh
2019
swift meadow
k'
So right click on your project and go to properties
In the solution explorer window
swift meadow
I assume you created a project?
fringe marsh
Yah
swift meadow
and your cpp file is part of that project?
fringe marsh
Yah
swift meadow
ok, so on the left side of the window is a "Solution Explorer window
fringe marsh
yup
fringe marsh
Yup I see it
fringe marsh
yup
fringe marsh
What do I do?
swift meadow
I guess my first question is if you found the exe generated yet?
It should be somewhere inside your projects folder. Typically in a Debug or Release folder
swift meadow
Not inside of visual studio, but in file explorer.
fringe marsh
oh ok let me look
swift meadow
Right click on your project
and select open in file explorer, or something to that affect
fringe marsh
I see it
swift meadow
What do you have in that folder?
fringe marsh
swift meadow
ok there's your debug folder.
fringe marsh
swift meadow
Open that up and see if your Demo.exe file is there
ok, so nothing built yet.
There's some pdbs there for VS, but nothing for your code.
swift meadow
In VS open up that cpp file, what do we see?
fringe marsh
this is what i see when i open it
swift meadow
Looks reasonable to me.
Was this an empty project you created?
Or did you specify a different option when you created it
Any errors when you try to compile it?
Right click on the project, hit Build. Check the output window.
swift meadow
On that purple icon with the 2 + signs I showed you earlier.
in the solution explorer window
fringe marsh
mines blank
swift meadow
um
In your screenshot earlier you had a solution and project both called "ConsoleApplication1"
fringe marsh
I know I opened the .cpp file from file explorer and now its blank
swift meadow
ok in the file explorer, open the file with the SLN extension
ConsoleApplication1.sln
That'll open in VS, and once that's back up we can fix this.
fringe marsh
now there is stuff there
swift meadow
ok perfect. Right click on your project and hit build.
Need to know what if any errors you get.
fringe marsh
Where do I right-click? sorry
swift meadow
swift meadow
ok so I'm curious. Right click your project, go to properties.
fringe marsh
yup
fringe marsh
yup
swift meadow
how is that set
fringe marsh
swift meadow
Change it to say "Not using precompiled headers"
hit apply / ok
Then try to build again
fringe marsh
Did it again, same errors
Ugg I gotta go now. I'm sorry I can't finish this right now
thanks for the help though
swift meadow
np. Shoot me a message tomorrow and I'll help ya get through it.
fringe marsh
Ok thanks!
swift meadow
So those files are all part of the CRT. Make sure your VS installation has "Universal CRT SDK" selected
rough sapphire
print(@sinful copper.randint(1,6))
tiny raven
Loss.exe
outer junco
some people are libraries too
lofty dirge
Sure, hashing as theory for File System makes sense
vapid bluff
@lofty dirge imagine a file system where you can specify any single point in time (since the start of the filesystem) to go back to.
plucky ridge
@lofty dirge Well in fairness, it's sometimes satisfying to just work on the what if's. And it's entirely possibly you're working out in a say military aspect where you only have the one machine that HAS to work
lofty dirge
in real world, once you start looking into it, mirror is much much better solution
plucky ridge
I'm not disagreeing with you, mirroring does offer a more solid solution
But it could also have implications for things such as git
vapid bluff
i honestly dont see how mirroring would be practical for what im suggesting
lofty dirge
git has different requirements, git primary concern is go back in time
plucky ridge
Sure sure
lofty dirge
meta, that exists now, most of it is still mirror, user over writes file, write new copy, keep pointer to old
lofty dirge
I've never got into details of git, does git keep copies or just track line changes
meta, VSS copies on Windows do that
plucky ridge
It's still mind boggling that there hasn't been any huge like overtaking changes to move away from RAID
vapid bluff
afaik vss creates snapshots
plucky ridge
Oh huh
vapid bluff
it doesnt let you revert the filesystem state to any single point in time in the filesystem's past
only those at which snapshots were made
plucky ridge
I guess any of the numbered RAID's
solid pollen
Git keep a full copy of every state of every file in the history btw
plucky ridge
0, 1, 1+0, 3, 5
Are the ones I'm primarily thinking of
Like I've read about things like BeyondRAID but nothing seems to be the next true successor
If that makes sense
solid pollen
@lofty dirge you can force git to use delta, but by default it keep a copy of every state, so check out can be instantly
plucky ridge
I guess I never really understood how it was so fast. That's kind of neat, Aka
lofty dirge
Mr. Hemlock, most modern SAN/File systems no longer do strict RAID
plucky ridge
Ah, it's still just called that?
lofty dirge
for example, Windows Storage Spaces, you give it 48 SSDs and say "I want 3 copies of every block" so when you write a file, it sends out 3 copies to various disks
what's different then most RAIDs, is disks are not strictly kept
like Disk 1 is not exact copy of Disk 2 and so forth
plucky ridge
Well sure, but that'd just be striping, right?
vapid bluff
@lofty dirge in the filesystem im proposing, rather than storing copies to facilitate reverting a file's state, you would recalculate it. the checksum/hash/whatever would act as a kind of mathematical history to get from its start to end.
plucky ridge
Huh
vapid bluff
therefore you could go from the current state to any state in the past
like turning a dial
lofty dirge
but file1 coupld be done disk 1,7,10 and file2 could be on disk 1,4,14
solid pollen
Using deltas I guess meta?
lofty dirge
1 does not pair with 2
all it knows, 48 disks, all files have 3 copies SOMEWHERE in this pool of 48 disks
so if you has disk failure and plenty of space
you just start making fresh copies on other disks
plucky ridge
And unlike striping, you wouldn't need disks like 3, 4 and 5 to rebuild a clone of failed disk 1
lofty dirge
yep
plucky ridge
Okay, I'm with ya
lofty dirge
and if you have a failure, you start rebuild with existing capacity left
gentle moss
uhhh
plucky ridge
And any new disk added would just be factored into the whole scheme as needed
plucky ridge
Okay, question: What do you guys say the I stands for in RAID?
lofty dirge
like Windows will take a new disk and lazy begin load balancing into disk
plucky ridge
I've always said "Inexpensive"
gentle moss
implosive
lofty dirge
meta, again, cool file system and something of like exists
vapid bluff
not as far as im aware
you honestly dont seem to be reading what im saying
so i think im gonna dip
lofty dirge
but when it comes to implementation, you will find just keep copies and pointers works well
vapid bluff
not much point in having a conversation if youre not gonna listen
lofty dirge
meta, you are talking File System where every write is cataloged and you can revert to any point of time
plucky ridge
I think I get it
lofty dirge
you would like to use some hashing/parity algorithm to keep old copies
plucky ridge
The focus for Meta's is revertability where as Rabbit is primarily talking about file integrity and... insurance?
No that's not the word
lofty dirge
mr. Hemlock, I'm talking revertability
plucky ridge
Reverting to a previous file state with cloning?
lofty dirge
but again, hashing/parity on new write is compute expensive
as opposed to just writing a new file, marking it new and keeping a pointer to old copy
plucky ridge
I think the approach would be heavily dependent on needs
But I can certainly see the merit for both
lofty dirge
now maybe you hash like git does so you can keep integrity
gentle moss
if you're doing parity why not do it across drives to stop failure breaking the array
lofty dirge
but when it comes to storing different files, copies are much better idea then parity/hashing
like you have file1.docx -> user edits/saves, file system would generate hash/parity, store that and do what with new_file1.docx meta?
plucky ridge
I think where the multiple copies thing breaks down is when we don't have the availability of additional drives or storage beyond the one or two storage devices that are part of the system
lofty dirge
I'm talking copies in general
plucky ridge
And under those constraints are options are significantly weaker
lofty dirge
git apparently does that
plucky ridge
Sure sure
I'm more just thinking within the constraints that Meta was talking about
lofty dirge
even on single disk, copies will probably work better then hashing/party
gentle moss
why would you do parity on a single drive
lofty dirge
parity would
gentle moss
if you're even that bothered about data purity you'll be building a multi-drive system
plucky ridge
Sure
gentle moss
the risk of random bit flips corrupting files is pretty damn low
plucky ridge
Most file systems handle that well enough anyway
lofty dirge
meta apparently dipped out
plucky ridge
He did yeah
I would just like to point out that this started out because of a discussion on .pyc files
Just thought that was an interesting rabbit trail (pun unintended)
gentle moss
filesystems can handle file purity
lofty dirge
my take away as SRE of this conversation, you developers are smart, but Ops deal with this shit on constant basis, they know
gentle moss
if you want to back your shit up you're using a drive array
plucky ridge
I'm not a dev. My major was CIS, so I'm kind of a generalist
But granted, that quite a while ago
lofty dirge
and there are systems that keep copies of every changes
plucky ridge
Now I'm an office monkey
lofty dirge
I've worked with SANs that had that feature
terse sluice
storage area network
lofty dirge
and I know some of blob storage cloud providers offer similar feature as well
Apparently Azure does not natively which is cloud provider I use
but you can take snapshots
plucky ridge
Okay so if snapshots take copies, is there a specific kind of compression they use to keep the snapshot size reasonable or am I misunderstanding how they work
lofty dirge
it takes copies
nope! you snapshot it, you pay for it
nope, problem with hashing/compressing and such is lag time on retrieval
like for example, we had a client that pushed 1GB CAD files to blob storage, can you imagine how long it would take to get that file if it was compressed
plucky ridge
Fair. Are there any additional benefits or protections given from snapshots? Or is it just because they're all there in one place so it'd be easier to just slap it back into place?
sinful copper
right but for snapshots
they could do something clever like store them all in a deduplicating filesystem, so that unchanged files only take metadata space
that's not "compression" per se, but it's similar
fossil solar
when is the last day to submit the qualifier
fossil solar
okay thanks
rough sapphire
terse sluice
nice
austere compass
terse sluice
same lol
jagged fog
||if you write qualifier bad enough there's a higher chance you'll end up in better team|| 
but I'll cover all advanced + all the secret test cases I can find
they seem pretty sure about lot of people showing up 🤔
terse sluice
hm interesting and yeah the more the merrier i guess
ah i'm not so sure i can join in since
- i haven't used kivy before (not too much of an issue but.. )
- i have finals that week
dang
jagged fog
I think you'll only need a few hours of contribution durgin those 10days as there are 5 members
even having someone to give hints and idea is a huge help
terse sluice
oh really? i can definitely do more than a few hours within 10 days
jagged fog
well ye that would be acceptable I guess. Last time we had 3 team members but 1 couldn't contribute due to personal things. Even with that we managed to finish and results were very good. 2 of us had 23 commits each and from the commit history we commited first 2 days then paused and then commited again in the last 2 days. And that's just 2 of us. With a 5 man team even if 1 backs down there are still more than enough of you to make some work.
our biggest problem was actually what idea to code
I had lots of fun that time. At first I didn't think we'll go trough it as our team leader couldn't attend and I felt pretty newbie at the time. But once we had a idea 2 of us separated into backend and frontend, made out scripts each then connected it and voila. It was a cool experience
terse sluice
ohh this seems pretty doable and fun! was last time goal to create a website?
lament jackal
crisp sierra
@lament jackal Please read Requirement 3 in the nickname policy here and change your name: https://pythondiscord.com/pages/rules/
vestal briar
Mines just a laptop with a mouse and headphones sitting on a desk
tame terrace
how can you write code on just a laptop. I don't get it.
rough sapphire
i used to think the same, but i started using i3 and adjusted my workflow for it, and it changed everything
I like to start by sacrificing a goat
I could probably write code on a small PDA now if it had i3
wooden kindle
Tiling manager and tmux
rough sapphire
god I really want a small PDA now
rough sapphire
i3 is my unresistable succubus
if I couldn't use i3 at work, I'd be 40% less efficient
tired osprey
I am not exactly sure about these numbers but I agree on the statement
gentle moss
[09:06] lemon: i3 is demonic
[09:07] lemon: I'd rather be a plumber than be forced to use i3 on my work machine.
funny you should say
because i3 was clearly designed by plumbers
i mean look at all the guttering
oak tangle
@tame terrace You've said that a couple of times, i3 is demonic, but what actual part of it is demonic to you? I don't get it, I'm quite happy with using it.
sand goblet
If you're using a mouse for an app, the cursor is confined to that app, isn't it?
How do you drag things between apps if that's the case?
oak tangle
let me check properly
sand goblet
I just like a mouse driven UI I guess
I still enjoy tiling but you can add that to Plasma or Gnome, so
oak tangle
No
I can drag files between different windows and drop them
If that's what you mean
rough sapphire
If you're using a mouse for an app, the cursor is confined to that app, isn't it?
trying to understand what you mean by this
sand goblet
Last time I tried i3 I thought I couldn't move the cursor out of the app window
It was a while ago though, so I could be wrong
oak tangle
The window certainly does not jail your mouse; I was a bit unsure about drag+drop support, but there's no issue with that either
sand goblet
Alright
oak tangle
I'm not an i3 evangelist by the way, I just like using it myself
tame terrace
i3 feels incredibly restrictive to me, and I can't deal with the keyboard-driven workflow. I think i3 gaps look absolutely terrible, I'm not a huge fan of workspaces and i3 seems to revolve around them, it's frustrating to set up, it's too minimalistic for my liking, and it's just too much of a paradigm shift for my liking.
gentle moss
oak tangle
Okay, so i3 doesn't fit your workflow, @tame terrace. That doesn't sound demonic; it just sounds like it's not the right tool for you.
tame terrace
yes, I was being hyperbolic when I refered to it as demonic
gentle moss
too many gutter gaps at any rate G
sand goblet
There's no gaps
oak tangle
I know, but you shit on i3 everytime I see you mention it
sand goblet
Those windows aren't tiled or anything haha
gentle moss
aw damn it.
oak tangle
I don't really care about that
gentle moss
...
royal lakeBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied mute to @rough sapphire until 2019-12-19 10:16 (9 minutes and 59 seconds) (reason: duplicates rule: sent 4 duplicated messages in 10s).
oak tangle
!ban 645369027799285770 Go away.
royal lakeBOT
:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @arctic sandal permanently.
tame terrace
!ban @arctic sandal spamming racial slurs
royal lakeBOT
:x: According to my records, this user already has a ban infraction. See infraction #5226.
sand goblet
So satisfying to see the bot do that
tame terrace
okay
oak tangle
I'll edit the text
oak tangle
yes
wooden silo
Well, why dignify that with anything else?
gentle moss
logs.
oak tangle
I need to up my infraction counts, I'm lagging
solid pollen
@hasty scroll discord bot?
dusky orchid
what's the context, felix?
sand goblet
There's no approval process though
dusky orchid
accepted or rejected to what
solid pollen
I.. Don't see why you need it to be accepted
glass gorge
Discordbots?
sand goblet
Womp womp
hasty scroll
Forget what you saw
dusky orchid
no need
hasty scroll
😂
dusky orchid
it's forever in history
hasty scroll
Damnit
sand goblet
what has been seen cannot be unseen
Anyway, speaking of alternative shells
There actually are a bunch of them for Windows too
Most of them are old though
oak tangle
Anyway, what I was saying, @tame terrace, I don't care if you shit on i3, I just wanted to hear your reasons for shitting on it.
tame terrace
naw I just found it very frustrating and now it's personal
tame terrace
yeah @hasty scroll! now it's personal!
dusky orchid
sounds like a backstory to a movie
tame terrace
@dusky orchid laying down the law
hasty scroll
Its just moderation and some other commands. Like polls or self-roles messages.
Also working on economy rn
sand goblet
Here's one https://cairoshell.com/
tame terrace
you better be shaking in your boots, @hasty scroll because @dusky orchid's dad knows geoffrey rush's dad!
hasty scroll
Is it weird that i don't understand what he's saying?
tame terrace
yeah baby I'm famous as fuck
dusky orchid
i'm going to assume you mean the owner is popular, not the server
tame terrace
both are true
dusky orchid
we gotta pump up those numbers
hasty scroll
The server is popular
tame terrace
hey man I'm working on it
dusky orchid
well all you need is a lemon
hasty scroll
Yeah promote my server
Now
Or i grab my knife
Gonna cut those lemons
Are staff applications opened? @tame terrace
Or can i even apply?
rough sapphire
@sand goblet cursor is handled by X, interfacing with xinput, not the wm
vapid bluff
is there a name for the spinning thing you do with a bar of soap to apply it to your hands
vapid bluff
lmao
solid pollen
“before I evicerate you”
Hmm tell me @rough sapphire, wasn’t the command supposed to only work in #bot-commands ?
solid pollen
Okay okay
solid pollen
Test suites are great haha
wooden silo
Tests are the bomb.
plucky ridge
I feel like I'm just on the cusp of understanding how to do them properly
wooden silo
I just think of it as "affixing" functionality in the code, so even if I change stuff, the stuff that's tested keeps working the same way. Then you just affix everything that you're afraid of breaking when you mess about. Then you rewrite the code such that you can affix as much as possible.
And then the code automatically becomes super stable and super nice to read.
plucky ridge
Sure but shouldn't testing also try and catch some of the things you don't know to be afraid of?
solid pollen
Here, for example, I wrote tests to make sure that the regex I created was working, and now that I have changed something, I know that I broke stuff
wooden silo
I think maybe you're thinking of exploratory testing, and I find that it's better to do that manually.
Then once you find an error case, maybe you wanna write an automated test that covers that.
@solid pollen 👍
plucky ridge
I should play around with the idea more. Or at least see if I can properly apply it to our repo
solid pollen
There is also test-driven development, where you create the tests before the implementation, so you know where you are going
plucky ridge
Been meaning to cut my teeth on tests by working on some of the ones we need
wooden silo
Like, when you test manually, you can be creative and try different stuff in complex and unexpected ways fairly easily.
Like, test all kinds of weird inputs or combinations of inputs in different orders.
plucky ridge
Sure
wooden silo
It would take a lot of effort to write automated tests to do all of that, and it might not even pay off.
But with manual testing, you can do one-off deep testing.
And maybe you find a bug or maybe you don't.
If you do, you cover it with an automated test.
Although, of course, there are tools to help automate exploratory testing in different ways, too.
None that's like super mainstream, though.
Like mutation testing or property-based testing.
plucky ridge
-nods-
wooden silo
@solid pollen Yeah, I find that TDD works best in cases where you have a good idea of what you want the interface of the thing you're building to be, but less of a clear picture of how you want it to work internally.
And especially when the thing needs to have a lot of complex internal logic, as opposed to something that's logically simple, but interacts with a lot of different external entities.
So TDD is perfect for developing complex algorithms, for example.
But it makes less sense when you have, say, a simple web app that retrieves data from an API and just displays it on a page.
Or stores it in a database.
solid pollen
Yeah, I think it work better on small functions that have a clear output (like the cj5 qualifier)
wooden silo
Or big functions.
As long as they are proper functions.
It's debatable whether you even need automated tests for very simple logic, you can usually see if it works or not just by looking at it. And if the logic starts getting complex, you can break it out into a function, and then you can test it.
The stuff that remains outside the function will be simple and can be verified by inspection.
solid pollen
Open source projects should have tests even for simple functions IMO
But, for internal projects, I guess it’s fine as long as everyone know what they are doing
wooden silo
There's such a thing as writing too many tests, as well.
Each test you write needs to be maintained, and imposes restrictions on the code it tests. So changing the behavior becomes more time-consuming, because you need to refactor the tests to accomodate the new functionality.
So tests cost money. Maybe it's worth it because the test prevents a bug that also costs money to fix, or costs money because it hurts the business.
But it's not guaranteed.
It might just be a waste.
There's an art to writing tests that maximize utility while keeping the overall number of tests down to just the essentials.
plucky ridge
Well that's just like anything. It's all about balance
wooden silo
For sure. It's good to know what factors you are trading off of each other in a given context, though.
plucky ridge
Sure sure
plucky ridge
For the record, I hate random .dll errors
Just in case someone got the wild notion that I'm a fan of them and decided to grace my day with them
gentle moss
you thought of using the secure erase function built into most discs @plucky ridge ?
or do they have to be wiped to a specific spec?
plucky ridge
Not sure, I've just been using... which is it... the DoD spec one
gentle moss
just mass overwrites?
plucky ridge
I think it's mass overwrite, clearing overwrite again
Either way, I just found the IRS media sanitation guidelines, going to review them again
gentle moss
i think it's neat the ATA spec contains a "secure erase" function
i guess the problem is the manufacturer to implement them properly
plucky ridge
I don't think I've ever known how to do that
plucky ridge
I'm pretty sure I was just using DBAN and wiping it that way
gentle moss
probably the safest way
plucky ridge
But since the IRS mentioned that I don't even have to do the DoD short, I'm not going to
Or maybe I will
Ehhhhhhhhhh
gentle moss
DoD stuff is going to be way over the top i imagine
plucky ridge
You'd think
They usually do the wipes and then incinerate
Which just cracks me up
"KILL IT, KILL IT WITH FIRE"
gentle moss
if you read the UK MoD's spec it lists all the ways to destroy data up to certain security thresholds
but all of them list "incinerate" as an acceptable form
plucky ridge
For sure
I just find it funny that some places dictate that you need to do both
Feels a smidge like overkill
gentle moss
for their highest spec destruction of spinners it's something like
3mm x 3mm x 3mm diced chunks
OR
burn it at 2000c
gentle moss
:D
plucky ridge
I have no idea why, but it's incredibly humorous to imagine a chef just chopchopchopping through a shit ton of hard drives.
gentle moss
"i'll have uhhh... the fillet steak with peppercorn sauce and julienne hard drive as a side."
plucky ridge
"I'll have some zip disks, please" "Ah yes sir, an excellent year for media."
Okay, now to load my van up and get to delivering for the next while
Thank god for podcasts
plucky ridge
Followed relatively closely by flash drives
gentle moss
btw this is what i was reminded of by your chef thing
[chopping intensifies]
that show is both weird and fun
rough sapphire
jazz drives.... basically high density zip disks
fossil solar
oh okay
solid pollen
Guys, can you somehow run two OS at the sane time and do not drop your performance more than like.. 15%?
Using containers or some kind of wizardry like that
jagged fog
same time? 
solid pollen
Or switching from one to another in less than 10 seconds
terse sluice
without a drop in performance probably not.. not sure tbh
but a virtual machine will let you switch back and forth almost instantly
solid pollen
But performance of VMs are pretty horrible, right?
tired osprey
you can quite easily run two OSes at the same time
look at for example the L4 environment
terse sluice
yeah VMs don't perform great
solid pollen
@tired osprey do you know any resource on how to run windows and Linux at the same time? Looks very promising
tired osprey
how we do it in our product is running one compartment with linux and another one with linux running a windows inside a hypervisor....which is more or less a VM really
i uh heard plans of our l4 peeps to make some vodoo so it runs windows closer native / without that linux but idk about those plans atm
maybe if they get it done theyll push it to upstream and everyone can use it oooooooooooooooooooooooooor they dont and everyone in the team starts crying
rough sapphire
is this channel name a reference to the purge made by stalin in the USSR?
dusky orchid
Nope. It was a lame joke about us doing a big cleanout on one of the database tables a few months ago
considering such a link could be made, we've removed the ot channel name from the name pool and regen'd a new one
rough sapphire
fossil solar
Damn this convo is going on forever 😂
rough sapphire
It's annoying trolling now
I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft limited issues being created/modified for a little while.
Also, it's a little silly for all of this trolling to stem from removing a hat of all things. There aren't better uses of the troll's time?
they actually did that already
I didn't even know that could be done
but I understand their pain.. what they should've done was make it an option that can be enabled/disabled
I mean, it's a hat though.
That doesn't mean people should troll the issue tracker.
well people are generally not built to handle issues well
wow.. pun
anyway.. as I was saying.. different people have different ways to cope.. some are not generally accepted
I saw the initial issue that it offended them as legitimate. The influx of trolls after that, is completed unwarranted and unnecessary.
for instance.. I laugh when in uncomfortable situations.. my gf hates that:p
it's about sending a message XD I'm sure there's a better way to handle it.. they just don't know
Starbucks with the cup designs for example.. people still don't know what to do