people who read books on programming languages are a mistery to me
#ot1-perplexing-regexing
tired osprey
fervent dock
you said ++ 
vestal briar
C11+ π€
tired osprey
I just learn the very basics and then google my way through, throwing better and better design patterns on shit as i go
fervent dock
Had the C++ one and it was good
gentle moss
i'm with nix on that
vestal briar
vestal briar
I usually buy a book and a udemy course for some reason
I'll stick to the book this time
fervent dock
i kind of agree but there are things i wouldn't think of googling, which is what the fluent python preface says
vestal briar
Something like python is a googling ducking language
fervent dock
coming from c/java im kind of tempted to build things from scratch, but python generally provides something ready to go
gentle moss
i don't get paid to code either @tired osprey
fervent dock
and it's sometimes hard to break out of that paradigm, having a summary of all these neat things the language offers helps a lot
gentle moss
i'm paid to solve problems
vestal briar
π€
tired osprey
if id have searched a book for all the things I looked at I would probably still be sitting around searching for books
gentle moss
sometimes that involves code
vestal briar
Stop being all philisophical
gentle moss
:D
tired osprey
bisk does psaas
gentle moss
getting all philicheesesteakophical
vestal briar
Scripting: google/duckduckgo + docs, Mid-level/utility (?): videos + docs, Low level: books + docs + videos
That's the way I roll with it
tired osprey
how comes I never find good videos on the topics where one google search doesnt help me
gentle moss
videos can eat some shit
vestal briar
Is nix having a stroke
how comes I never find good videos on the topics where one google search doesnt help me
bisk does psaas
vestal briar
Ah
tired osprey
or that i guess
gentle moss
and i've done that in my job
vestal briar
Oh psaas as sprucing things up 
gentle moss
wot
gentle moss
that's pizazz
vestal briar
Yes
gentle moss
tired osprey
no
vestal briar
Play on words
vestal briar
fml bisk
gentle moss
get old, bitch.
vestal briar
get young, bitch
tired osprey
but you wouldnt be old anymore
gentle moss
plus the existential dread that the economy is going to be shattered by the ever nearing economic collapse and not having any stability before that happens
tired osprey
fkin 30 years old grandpa
gentle moss
oh, trust me. that's a solid one for a british teenager.
especially in this climate.
vestal briar
Ok then bisk
π₯ plus the existential dread that the economy is going to be shattered by the ever nearing economic collapse and not having any stability before that happens π₯
gentle moss
oh no, i'm safe.
vestal briar
Alrighty thenβ’
vestal briar
Yep π
gentle moss
fuck off i aint eating them
tired osprey
π
gentle moss
you evil little shit
vestal briar
Poor eivl
gentle moss
they're cute :(
vestal briar
Rats are nice
gentle moss
they do tricks
tired osprey
and why arent others?
gentle moss
because i didn't raise them from little babies, give them names and teach them tricks?
same reason i'll kill a wild rabbit for food but not a pet one
vestal briar
And they eat you
gentle moss
:P
vestal briar
Well I am internally stressing about nothing
gentle moss
that's good.
vestal briar
Woo π
gentle moss
can't italic an emoji smh
vestal briar
Pretty sure I done it once
Along with ***Hello *there* other bit***
Where there just escapes a bit
Β―_(γ)_/Β―
rain spindle
@sand goblet I've got a exam tommorow, can I get some irish luck?
sand goblet
you might need to ask an Irish person for that
rain spindle
hints multple times to wish me good luck
sand goblet
:P
rain spindle
THIS IS OT
gentle moss
HE'S FUCKING ENGLISH
gentle moss
but a traitor
rain spindle
BISK I KNOW
sand goblet
I actually will be getting a citizenship someday probably
rain spindle
He joined the celtic union
sand goblet
then you can tell people I'm Irish
rain spindle
Its fine
sand goblet
nah
rain spindle
tm
rain spindle
i got the trademark in
gentle moss
FER NAU
rain spindle
bleak lintel
hey sharp
rain spindle
@sand goblet When get a B in this exam
bleak lintel
the exam papers got stolne
rain spindle
Im telling you
bleak lintel
yes
sand goblet
how'd that happen
bleak lintel
stoneol
rain spindle
How?
rain spindle
Oh, not the whole lot
sand goblet
man, you guys cannot do an educational system
rain spindle
I'm closer than that
sand goblet
well I guess we knew that already
bleak lintel
"an arrest has been made." omegalul
bleak lintel
imagine being in prison with a load of murders, drug dealers andd general bad people
what did you do? stole some exam papers
rain spindle
I've found a parent-folder in the council network labelled exam
sand goblet
"I stole some exam papers"
sand goblet
"Back away, this guy's a sysadmin!"
I just want to say
kubernetes is beautiful
unless you do something it wasn't designed for
bleak lintel
also blue origin just announced a new rocket and it's hot
rain spindle
Lmaooooo
sand goblet
on a rocket engine?
sand goblet
Oh yeah definitely
bleak lintel
well
sand goblet
and I need that
it's real good at that, real good
my problem is that I need to live analyse the logs
of some of the containers
bleak lintel
it's built for multiple-container management, so I don't get it when people use it to run single containers
rain spindle
I think people do that to learn it joseph.
sand goblet
I've got a bunch of nodes and each node runs a docker daemon, obviously
sand goblet
I need to collect the logs from a set of containers that could be running on any node
bleak lintel
I know people doing it in prod
sand goblet
it would make sense to then run a daemon on each node that the docker daemon shoves logs to
that seems simplest
but actually it turns out you can't just do that, for a number of reasons
rain spindle
Make a database cluster?
sand goblet
it's entirely possible to run a service on each node
we call that a daemonset
what you can't do is address it
locally to the node
I can't go "I want log-api running on the current node"
there's just nothing for it
rain spindle
Strange.
sand goblet
I think maybe I'm just going to have to have fluentd collect from logfiles directly instead, but eh
rain spindle
Can you have 2 services on each node?
rain spindle
So have a sql db in each node
sand goblet
yeah, but I still can't address them
sand goblet
well, to explain a bit
rain spindle
Can you not make them all run as a massive db?
sand goblet
a pod is basically a unit with a bunch of containers in it
rain spindle
Isn;t that the point of kuber?
sand goblet
but they're ephemeral
sand goblet
so if I update a pod
okay let's say I'm running a django app
and I have it scaling to 4 pods
then I update the pod
k8s will do a rolling update
which involves killing half of the pods, updating them, and then doing the same to the other half once the first half is up
this process will assign the containers in the pods new IP addresses, and also new names
you can get around this to a point using ingress
but
ingress will only load balance
you still can't go "I want the local pod"
sand goblet
Oh, sure. But actually I'm not hosting the db myself.
sand goblet
but if I did that I'd use ingress
rain spindle
Where is your DB then?
sand goblet
and some kind of block storage, since containers are wiped
rain spindle
Because why not store all logs in a db?
rain spindle
Fair
sand goblet
DigitalOcean does managed database hosting
it scales, it does backups, and it's fully encrypted
rain spindle
I still have my databases in docker containers
sand goblet
my cluster is also with digitalocean
and the database is in the same datacentre
so it's all fast
rain spindle
Yeah
sand goblet
so I think what I'm going to have to do
rain spindle
How much money does this all cost?
rain spindle
ty
sand goblet
k8s: free
1 droplet: $10/mo
1 load balancer: $10/mo
database: $15/mo
I can scale up when I need to
this is the smallest database plan
10GB storage, primary only with one failover
rain spindle
Damnnn
sand goblet
that can also be scaled up
rain spindle
That's alot
sand goblet
it sounds like a lot
rain spindle
I understand it isn't for what you are getting
sand goblet
but when you realise that k8s will use the nodes as efficiently as it can
you can pack a lot of things in
sand goblet
well, you also couldn't run k8s on that
k8s is a bit useless unless your cloud provider has explicit support for it
sand goblet
the thing with k8s is it has a lot of features that end up being incredibly useful
sand goblet
load balancers (with automatic provisioning)
block storage volumes
if your provider doesn't support that, you outright can't use them
rain spindle
Ok that's fair.
sand goblet
block storage is a big deal
rain spindle
So i'm good
sand goblet
your containers will literally never have permanent storage
if you don't have block volumes
none of my containers need it, but someday they will I'm sure
rain spindle
docker-compose's volumes: are they block volumes?
sand goblet
they're docker volumes
block volumes aren't equivalent
a k8s volume is a permanent mount, but it spans your cluster
sand goblet
it's separate from the nodes
rain spindle
Ok.
sand goblet
you specify that your pod needs this volume
and all of the replicas of that pod can get at it
regardless of where in the network they are
this is important because your pods could be scheduled on any compatible node
that means you can't just write to the node's filesystem
you can't guarantee that pod will be on that node next time
so volumes solve that problem
digitalocean does 100 GiB for $10/mo
bleak lintel
daily reminder erlang is the best orchestration platform 
sand goblet
the thing with k8s is that it is designed to be integrated fully into your cloud provider's platform
you do not need to go into your control panel and create volumes
k8s will handle all of that for you
apiVersion: v1
kind: PersistentVolumeClaim
metadata:
name: csi-pvc
spec:
accessModes:
- ReadWriteOnce
resources:
requests:
storage: 5Gi
storageClassName: do-block-storage
Can your CI set it all up?
rain spindle
So I can have my "bash scripts" do the work in the CI
Also, how do you code with k8s?
Just docker-compose for dev?
k8s for production?
sand goblet
well if I look at my frontend repo
I have this folder
and my CI config looks like
- KUBECONFIG=$HOME/.kube/comect.yml kubectl apply -f kubernetes/frontend-namespace.yml
- KUBECONFIG=$HOME/.kube/comect.yml kubectl delete -f kubernetes/frontend-migrations.yml # Delete the old migration job first, jobs are immutable
- KUBECONFIG=$HOME/.kube/comect.yml kubectl apply -f kubernetes/frontend.yml
- KUBECONFIG=$HOME/.kube/comect.yml kubectl create -f kubernetes/frontend-migrations.yml # Apply second to minimise weird behaviour
- KUBECONFIG=$HOME/.kube/comect.yml kubectl apply -f kubernetes/frontend-service.yml
- KUBECONFIG=$HOME/.kube/comect.yml kubectl --namespace frontend annotate deployment frontend-deployment kubernetes.io/change-cause="`git log -1 --format="[%an] %B"`"
the name is OK now, I registered it lol
rain spindle
Ah ok cool
But: what about when your developing the app?
You can't put that on k8s
sand goblet
I can
sand goblet
Well, you mean like, while I'm working on it I can't push to prod?
I can push to a staging cluster if I wanted to
all I have to do is use a different kubeconfig
everything else is the same
this whole thing allows me to keep track of deployments
this is super useful honestly
you can rollback to any of those whenever you like
but anyway most people don't need k8s
it's very useful for high availability stuff though, and that's what I'm going into
rain spindle
Like if you wanted to put a Django project on k8s
You don't develop that django project on k8s
So how do you test it will?
sand goblet
With tests?
You can unit test Django
Other common tests include integration testing (manual testing) and selenium testing
rain spindle
But let's say I made that django app.
I'd develop it on my local PC inside a docker container
sand goblet
Selenium is nice for collecting screenshots
Yeah, I do that
Well I don't use a container to run it
rain spindle
But if I then make container-breaking edits to it
sand goblet
I do use one for the database
rain spindle
I'll need to edit k8s too.
sand goblet
What is a container breaking edit?
rain spindle
To be honest, idk
Maybe changing the environment vars, the volume
Or the github repo setup
sand goblet
Well, env vars and volumes aren't a container level thing
That's done in your pod
And changing your repo is a CI issue
But you just have these yaml files, and you update them by applying them again
There are some conditions to it of course
It won't redeploy the pods unless you changed the image tag
That means no :latest, but you shouldn't use that anyway
round basalt
hey
sand goblet
Hey
sullen thorn
Hey
lone otter
Hey
bleak lintel
no spamming 
shell blade
Party killer
bleak lintel
party only getting started
fervent dock
shell blade
No just no
bleak lintel
He is the smartest programmer ever
shell blade
Yeah ok lets not poke fun at people who have serious MH issues
bleak lintel
i'm... not?
he is genuinely insanely smart
and in my opinion, the smartest programmer ever.
I'm not trying to put a MH twist on it, or even factor that in, because it isn't relevant.
shell blade
Mmm hmm
bleak lintel
He wrote a compiler and an OS
and the language he wrote, HolyC has some genius features
U0 BottlesOfBeer (I64 initial=99) {
// This is made I64 rather than U64
// Because, a U64 would overflow
// At the end of the loop, thus it would loop forever (i-- would be 0-1 so it overflows and is always greater than or equal to 0)
I64 i = initial;
for (; i >= 0; i--) {
if (i == 1) {
// Just a string on it's own will pass it to an inbuilt HolyC function that puts it to terminal
"1 Bottle of Beer on the wall, 1 bottle of beer.\n";
"Take one down and pass it around, no more bottles of beer on the wall.\n";
} else if (i == 0) {
"No more bottles of beer on the wall, no more bottles of beer.\n";
"Go to the store and buy some more, 99 bottles of beer on the wall.\n";
} else {
"%d bottles of beer on the wall, %d bottles of beer.\n",i,i;
"Take one down and pass it around, %d bottle",(i-1);
// Only add the s if it's not 1
if ((i-1) != 1) {
"s";
}
" of beer on the wall.\n";
}
}
}
// Calls the function, which goes to the default parameters
BottlesOfBeer;
he sums it up pretty well himself
It does indeed suck that he was affected by these issues, but he was a genius either way
Oh and arguably the best thing i think
the shell is HolyC
you can program directly from the shell, very similar to how powershell operates I believe
but he also built his own IDE and everythingg
and the thing is he reached a point which not a lot of OS developers reach
He reached the point where he could develop his OS from inside his OS I think
also he wrote a text encoding system
DolDoc
you can embed hyperlinks, images and 3D meshes into code
functions the same as ascii but with those thingsg
so you can have imagges in code
like this
and it's JIT compiled
so yeah, I think that is valid reasoning as to why I think he is the smartest programmer in the world and I hope you understand that just because he did have a mental disorder me bringing him up and labelling him as the smartest programmer is in no way a dig at him or an attempt to poke fun
lone otter
Mmm hmm
vestal briar
It's a meme
bleak lintel
what
he wrote over 100,000 lines of code for this
I don't think that's just an elaborate meme
this was a real project of his and I have mad respect for him working on it
tulip palm
i agree with joe. davis had a goal and he worked damn hard towards it no matter what got in the way of him. that's pretty impressive imo.
shell blade
Yeah i agree he was really smart and did overcome a lot of stuff. I guess I was concerned because I do see a lot of people make fun of him for his problems and I don't like that. Kudos to you for really supporting him , sorry for doubting you.
vestal briar
Yep
An actual great programmer
He became a meme but i'd argue it was good
Raises awareness for schizophrenia at the very least
rough sapphire
Hmm
sand goblet
@rough sapphire I don't really have an objection to you helping people :P
sand goblet
I just don't really understand the targeting
The staff here are great at not discriminating already from what I've seen
proper dune
It's not that weird to prioritise disadvantaged or underrepresented groups for mentors, especially when you believe in the cause and/or are part of the group anyway
rough sapphire
Because it's hard being a woman in tech IMO. I don't owe anyone my help and I would prefer that women, who I can sympathize with being a woman in tech, get my help/expertise. π
proper dune
Nothing to do with the server
rough sapphire
well no one here.. owes anyone help, they do it to learn and help others learn..
sand goblet
Maybe it's a regional thing, women aren't an under represented group in tech where I'm from
Ah yeah, definitely not the same place then
Ireland :P
rough sapphire
california.. that explains it..
heady nexus
π
sand goblet
Several people are typing..
rough sapphire
π
viral parrot
women are underrepresented in tech here, but the ones I have worked with are bloody brilliant, by a large margin.
sand goblet
I don't think 50/50 is a realistic or correct goal, but when I've worked in tech, there have definitely been a bunch of women
viral parrot
it is a thing called the norwegian paradox, it has to do with gender equality in the workplace
but i know nothing much about it
sand goblet
Most of them more skilled than the dudes that were there
proper dune
Women are definitely underrepresented in general. Know the saddest thing I noticed? At my Microsoft interview, the 8 or so candidates were 50/50 in gender. The 8 or so interviewers that were all management and had 500 people working under them? Men, all of them. Mostly white.
sand goblet
I don't think a 50/50 split makes sense when you factor in personal choice
rough sapphire
I don't think empathy is common. People have a tough time empathizing with someone when they haven't been through it themselves.. So I understand when you have had a personal hindrance and overcome, you seek other people and help them do the same..
sand goblet
@proper dune There's a current controversy going around internally at Microsoft because some workers claim that the hiring team are paid more when they hire someone that isn't a white male
rough sapphire
but, discriminating against other people while you're doing that hurts them too.. and that's a bad domino effect..
wutttt
dusky orchid
if it's a matter of priority, i think it's fine to offer help. however everyone should keep note of one thing:
if it becomes clear that there's purposeful malicious exclusion of any person in the community or treating someone lesser due to gender, background, race, sexuality, etc, even if you don't consider them a minority, it will absolutely be considered discrimination and we have a zero tolerance policy with it.
rough sapphire
you're discounting the fact that any and all of us here have been through things..
proper dune
Thank god because they need more diversity there
sand goblet
@proper dune You see why it's hypocritical though, right?
proper dune
I can see why it can be viewed that way
sand goblet
@rough sapphire Oh okay, I was just talking about my own experience
rough sapphire
Can i say sexist? 
proper dune
@rough sapphire there's not a lot of women in this server anyway that I know of. People here haven't responded well either. Might have better luck somewhere else?
rough sapphire
I'm kinda saddened that they have these exclusive opportunities for kids especially coding camps now that discriminate based on gender..
this is where we are.. because of this..
sand goblet
I always thought that the answer was education, not hiring quotas
Amazon's anonymous hiring experiment was interesting
rough sapphire
equal opportunity is what people need.. you can't guarantee equal outcome and you hurt everyone because of discrimination..
sand goblet
Agree
proper dune
You can't expect just equal opportunity to come to a fair equilibrium. There is a hysteresis effect
rough sapphire
so, to people from california, I would like to ask, leave gender, sex, color of skin out of everything.. especially repos
dusky orchid
@rough sapphire I'm unsure why you're jumping to conclusions especially when i explicitly stated if it's a matter of priority, i think it's fine to offer help
i think i'm pretty clear here and if I thought your original message alone was discrimination we wouldn't be talking now
rough sapphire
Equal opportunity is the fairest you can get imo
sand goblet
It's not going to become a 50/50 equilibrium if people have the choice of where they work, @proper dune
heady nexus
@rough sapphire and please
rough sapphire
Judge people by the content of their character.. - Martin Luther King..
rough sapphire
Well i think some women wont even talk because im man and thats straight sexism!
proper dune
"personal choice" too is affected largely by social factors and expectations, pretty narrow minded to think somehow women biologically going to just choose one over the other
heady nexus
It is offensive to people on the spectrum as it is often associated with them
sand goblet
Of course it is
heady nexus
Be better than that, please
sand goblet
But you can't tell me that there isn't some biological factor
proper dune
Are you saying women inherently don't like code??
vestal briar
In the membrane
rough sapphire
sanity must prevail..
Why wont you want learn with men? i dont get it you w00mans.
sand goblet
But there are a lot of other fields where women are underrepresented
rough sapphire
viva la revolucion..
proper dune
^
sand goblet
Fedora-tippers? Lol
vestal briar
What's happening here
rough sapphire
I didn't know this discord gave out fedoras.. where's mine
proper dune
dusky orchid
@rough sapphire please keep things respectful. insulting people isn't welcome
rough sapphire
you have to learn to appreciate difference of opinion.. welcome it, discuss and be open to ideas..
sand goblet
Who got salty xD
rough sapphire
not just force ideas on people.. perspectives exist for a reason
vestal briar
OK then
sand goblet
Doesn't really seem like they want to help if they can't explain their viewpoint
proper dune
I wouldn't say people are misogynistic but definitely people are not understanding the subtleties of how things work
I'll send a link in a sec hang on
rough sapphire
BOOO
heady nexus
Lowkey calling people dumb
sand goblet
I wanted to understand their viewpoint
heady nexus
Sad
rough sapphire
sand goblet
But clearly they're just toxic about it so whatever
heady nexus
People wonβt understand how βthings workβ if you donβt explain them
rough sapphire
yeah.. hurt and taking it out on other people..
vestal briar
What was the tldr yherr
heady nexus
If you accuse them of being misogynistic
vestal briar
There*
proper dune
@sand goblet https://ncase.me/polygons/
sand goblet
I don't understand the concept that women are somehow inferior and therefore need special help to get into STEM fields
dusky orchid
ok peeps, i think the convo can wrap up. things are going from discussing to personal insults
sand goblet
That makes no sense to me
dusky orchid
that's not an invite to have your last says either
heady nexus
Mutiny
vestal briar
Woooo
heady nexus
Kill the captain
vestal briar
VIVA DE REVILUYION
rough sapphire
dammit
heady nexus
Immunity
heady nexus
i am
vestal briar
Yar har
heady nexus
πΏ
rough sapphire
DO you have any last words
vestal briar
YOU ARE A PIRATE
sand goblet
Goddamn, it's Friday, today was supposed to be a good day
rough sapphire
well it's still early for you aint it
sand goblet
They say "Hfeflflfo, Tfrfofn"
rough sapphire
XD
I found this word.. nummers in Dutch too
I have no idea what this means.. o.o why does it keep appearing in every language
oak tangle
The word "nummers"?
rough sapphire
yes.. what does it mean.. in search it says numbers.. but I'm guessing it's ambiguous and changes depending on context
oak tangle
It means number, yes
It's used for songs as well (probably because tracks have a number on an album, but I'm not sure)
rough sapphire
ahh
oak tangle
And it has a couple of other meanings, but it's mainly from number
oak tangle
It's also used in some sayings, like "Iemand op zijn nummer zetten", but I'm not sure what nummer directly translates to.
Anyway, it's from latin originally (numerus) and came to Dutch through French (nombre)
oak tangle
Let me translate the Dutch terms to the proper English ones, one sec
mijn is a possessive pronoun
So, It's my book -> Het is mijn boek
The use of mij is a bit more difficult to explain, I think, becuase our grammar is slightly different from English grammar
And I'm not a grammar expert
Anyway, we have something similar to indirect objects
"You are giving me something" -> "Je geeft mij iets"
But, here's the difference with English:
"That book is mine" --> "Dat book is van mij"
rough sapphire
can you say.. if the possessive occurs at the end we use mij instead of mijn?
oak tangle
It's a bit more complicated than that
mij has a different role (and it's just in another grammatical construction as well)
So, it doesn't only have to do with possession
"The letter was addressed to me" -> "De brief was aan mij gericht"
It's what we call a "meewerked voorwerp" in that last sentence, which is a form of an indirect object
Another example: "You asked me to stop talking" -> "Je vroeg mij te stoppen met praten"
rough sapphire
thanks a bunch:)
gentle moss
het koekje is erg lekker
oak tangle
Een biscuitje zou ook prima zijn
sand goblet
my hovercraft is, once again, full of eels
sand goblet
Damn, that's a lot of eggs
gentle moss
the road to 2020 eggs
sand goblet
I feel like they must have a separate fridge for this guy's eggs
gentle moss
did he liiiiiiiiiterally justsay "give me all the eggs you got"
tame terrace
"Iβm worried what you just heard was give me a lot of eggs. What I said was give me all the eggs you have."
gentle moss
:D
tame terrace
it is bacon and eggs, yeah
gentle moss
This dude is propping up the egg industry for sure.
tame terrace
but I'm saying this guy pulled a ron swanson
sand goblet
Haha, yeah
oak tangle
there's not enough spam in there
sand goblet
Surely you mean
Lobster Thermidor aux crevettes with a Mornay sauce, garnished with truffle pΓ’tΓ©, brandy and a fried egg on top, and spam
oak tangle
Look, can I have egg, bacon, spam and sausage without the spam?
languid kelp
hey gdude are you very busy atm
sand goblet
Whaddaya need, buckaroo?
languid kelp
i'd like to interview you via pm regarding dietary intake if you would be inclined
languid kelp
i'll show you
gentle moss
oh man
interview me about my diet
i bet it's worse than his
the day before last i ate half a kilo of stinking hot chilli and nearly exploded
vestal briar
Hmm teacher said to get out of empty classroom in lunch
But friend was fasting (Ramadan) so he was allowed to stay
Seems a little off
languid kelp
is your friend in med schoole? π
rough sapphire
is your friend h0t and is she into him
sand goblet
not the most appropriate joke ever :P
gentle moss
@sand goblet, more people on the right getting milkshakes lobbed at them
it's become a thing
sand goblet
Yikes
gentle moss
two people threw milkshakes at Mr. "I wouldn't even rape you"
sand goblet
tbh I'd rather be yelled at
gentle moss
missed though
oak tangle
oh, hi bisk
sand goblet
who was it that said that again?
gentle moss
yes
sand goblet
I recall it being someone else that started it actually
gentle moss
he's tripled down on the comments made towards that MP
sand goblet
the point he was making was actually a great point
but it was such a terrible way to make it
gentle moss
the common defense of his comments i see is "well male MPs get more abuse than female MPs. are you saying they're not strong women?" etc etc
sand goblet
Well again I get the point, but it's a super shitty way of making it
but really that's sargon in a nutshell
he doesn't do himself any favours
gentle moss
"There's been an awful lot of talk about whether I would or wouldn't rape Jess Phillips. I've been in a lot of trouble for my hardline stance of not even raping her. I suppose with enough pressure I might cave. But let's be honest, nobody's got that much beer."
sand goblet
Haha, oh god, that's one way to dig a hole
gentle moss
he's a piece of shit really
gentle moss
and the problem with people saying "but he's making a good point" detracts from the fact of just what a complete and utter wanker he is
gentle moss
tbh the milkshakes are fucking dumb, but it's an amusing thing to see
hi Ves
sorry, i'm quoting a candidate for European Parliament
oak tangle
nah, you're fine. it's us wanting to have filters
sand goblet
you can associate with someone's work and not their personality
which is a point you make a lot
gentle moss
yeah but his work is shit stirring assholery under the guise of having a valid point
sand goblet
I don't think he's directly really done any useful work
But some of the stuff he's come out with have helped other people to actually do the work that he's supposed to be doing
gentle moss
but he's also now caused a bunch of people to harrass a sitting MP about why he should be allowed to joke about her sexual assault
sand goblet
I can't actually remember what his point on that was now, it was such a long time ago
literally a year or more
gentle moss
whatever his point was it's now just being used by him as a method of harrassment and a way to rally a base of wankers.
it sorta feels like that gamer gate shit is bleeding into politics
sand goblet
Nah, sargon is barely even gamergate
people keep forgetting where that even came from
and holy shit you should have seen some of the stuff that uncovered
people like brianna wu and zoe quinn teaming up to create anti-harassment services, groups and companies
and then using their clout there to actually cause targetted harassment towards people that didn't buy their shit
some of the stuff that came to light as a result of gamergate was pretty batshit
even if a whole bunch of unsavoury types tried to comandeer it for their own ends
gentle moss
all of it was pretty fucked up, yeah
stark prawn
I somehow missed the whole gamergate thing.
sand goblet
you're one of the lucky ones
I can give you a brief overview of what it was and how it got us where we are, if you want
but you probably don't want
gentle moss
i tried to tune that shit out but it fucking leached everywhere
sand goblet
it's a mess
gentle moss
nope.
sand goblet
it had semi-noble beginnings
but a lot of what happened after that is the reason we're stuck in this whole social justice mess today
that's not GG's fault, that's the fault of people reacting to it, but it's definitely related
it's extremely important as a history item for today's culture, but most people don't look at it in a positive light at all
I can see why, but there are two sides to every coin
I think this was probably my favourite moment https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/26/us/university-of-missouri-fires-melissa-click-who-tried-to-block-journalist-at-protest.html
vague shuttle
oh I love that, serves her right
vague shuttle
I have several times π
sand goblet
haha, then yeah, you know exactly what this is about then
vague shuttle
y, its not exclusive to usa either, similar things are happening everywhere
sand goblet
oh yeah, I forgot about the black lives matter movement as well
a genuinely great movement
vague shuttle
but
sand goblet
well, for the most part
until it got sold
I had no idea you could sell a movement but apparently you can
or maybe they sold the rights to the name or something
gentle moss
sold the twitter handle Β¬_Β¬
sand goblet
lol, maybe that too
stark prawn
I didn't think they had a leader, or any sort of governance. Just some people protesting for the same goal.
sand goblet
Yeah, but there was a central organisation point
vague shuttle
I am not sure if I am still on-topic with this because I am not so familiar with the sargon/gamergate thing u talked about but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O4rlrH8mI0
sand goblet
and I know that the name or something similar was sold
gentle moss
the thing is right
sand goblet
and it was all downhill from there
sand goblet
yeah I remember that video
gentle moss
no matter what the fuck it is
sand goblet
and yeah, that's true
gentle moss
because they're unreasonable fucking idiots
and it ends up tainting any political ideology / movement
stark prawn
Protests always seem to turn into fighting nowadays.
stark prawn
Have you seen the French ones recently?
sand goblet
I take it none of you remember the bus
gentle moss
French will use any excuse to set fire to something
vague shuttle
Not sure what u are referring to
stark prawn
Never heard of it.
gentle moss
it's in their blood
sand goblet
It was in sweden I think
stark prawn
They also love to loot.
vague shuttle
Woot, I must know about then
sand goblet
there was this bus going around the country, telling people not to become trans, or not to encourage people to become trans, or something like that
gentle moss
did you know that every new years eve-ish in France around 1000 cars are set alight?
stark prawn
Have you ever seen how people in Paris park?
sand goblet
the actual point they were making was something relating to parents pressuring their kids to be trans - which is a real problem - but they had a completely fucking disaterous way to address it
gentle moss
i've seen how they DRIVE. that'd be enough to make me want to burn cars
stark prawn
Bumpers are for bumping.
gentle moss
plus i've driven french cars, they're probably better after a good torch
sand goblet
I'm not sure it was that one
I think it was another one
that one was bullshit too though
vague shuttle
Cant find anything relating to sweden in that context
sand goblet
hmm
it was literally years ago so the details are a bit hazy
I remember being blocked on twitter by a female developer I had huge respect for, because I didn't want to rally my followers against it
because my followers aren't there for politics
vague shuttle
eh females always overreact
sand goblet
Huh? Naw
sand goblet
:P
okay something you should know is most of my friends are female
that's just how things turned out
some people think that's weird, but it gives me a huge range of viewpoints to call upon
vague shuttle
Fyi I dont have any friends (not joking).
Ohh, I didnt mean to turn off the lights.
vague shuttle
Im fine with it, well I wouldnt mind friends but I have grown accustomed to it
languid kelp
selling friendship, $1 a day
gentle moss
[15:13] Galnegunnar: I wasnt totally serious
sand goblet
oh I just remembered something
vague shuttle
Yes
sand goblet
Hey galnegunnar
sand goblet
Do you remember that one which was uhh
gentle moss
smh
sand goblet
That university that had a once a year thing where white people were told that they shouldn't come in
I can't remember which university it was
vague shuttle
In sweden?:O
sand goblet
I remember that faculty were told that it was optional, and one guy decided he'd go in anyway to get extra work done, and got harassed by students and fired over it
vague shuttle
lool, wtf is happening to the world
Same situation but tables turned on any race/religion and it would have been some major news
like worldwide major
vague shuttle
yes and it is true in many cases unfortunately. Just take the huge amount of people that think u cant be racist towards white people.
sand goblet
GitHub used to be a group that believed that, officially
sand goblet
it forever tainted my view of GH, but they at least rectified it
vague shuttle
in what way?
sand goblet
It was a new terms of service they put out back after the meritocracy rug bullshit
It only lasted like a week before they replaced it
wet steppe
whats meritocracy rug
sand goblet
do you know what meritocracy is?
wet steppe
yeah its the rug I'm confused about
vague shuttle
Btw I love this interview. (going to the gym so I will probably be a little inactive now) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeixtYS-P3s
sand goblet
Well, GH's offices used to have a rug
and it had stuff written on it about praising meritocracy, or something like that
wet steppe
ooh is this a literal rug
sand goblet
yes
sand goblet
they posted a photo of their office on twitter, with the rug in it
the mob awakened
and they removed the rug
wet steppe
how do you spell metafore
sand goblet
metaphor
wet steppe
spellcheck ruined my spelling π¦
sand goblet
:P
wet steppe
its rly bad
gentle moss
this is 2 meta 4 me
sand goblet
not a super long time after that controversy, they introduced a new terms of service relating to community conduct
wet steppe
I have good hand writing now cos I stopped using cursive
I print every letter like a 5 year old
sand goblet
the specific point I'm talking about is how it pointed out that they stood strong against discrimination and other similar issues
but
that the support team wasn't interested in reports of "reverse racism", "reverse sexism", and so on
and that those reports would be ignored
as I say, it only stuck for around a week before they changed it, but holy shit
Our open source community prioritizes marginalized peopleβs safety over privileged peopleβs comfort. We will not act on complaints regarding:
βReverseβ -isms, including βreverse racism,β βreverse sexism,β and βcisphobiaβ
Reasonable communication of boundaries, such as βleave me alone,β βgo away,β or βIβm not discussing this with youβ
Refusal to explain or debate social justice concepts
Communicating in a βtoneβ you donβt find congenial
Criticizing racist, sexist, cissexist, or otherwise oppressive behavior or assumptions
hmm
sand goblet
pretty nuts, isn't it
gentle moss
i'm a fucking pretty middle aged white dude, i'm not that fussed by it.
Β―_(γ)_/Β―
sand goblet
it was a pretty big deal, because a clause like that is the opposite of diverse
vague shuttle
Why are u priviliged?
sand goblet
the whole notion of political privilege is flawed
vague shuttle
I agree
sand goblet
using it as an excuse for anything is a waste of time
vague shuttle
But there is other types which i find real
sand goblet
I don't disagree that people are privileged in different ways
vague shuttle
I feel its better not to bring it up either way. It creates rifts
sand goblet
but using "you are more privileged" as a reason to be OK with hate and vitriol directed to a person
that's just crazy
vague shuttle
Agree
sand goblet
nobody deserves that, privileged or not
cosmic quiver
A person is privileged because they were born a certain way
The same way a person is discriminated against for the exact same reason
sand goblet
Sure, but the notion of privilege is subjective and changeable
to give you an example, I am a straight, cisgendered, white male
some people would tell you that makes me one of the most privileged people in the world
in some aspects, they are correct
cosmic quiver
yeah...?
vague shuttle
In many other dead wrong
sand goblet
however, that group has its own discrimination problems
as a male, I am untrusted around children
vague shuttle
Prone to being beaten
sand goblet
it's such a big problem in Ireland in fact that schools that require personal assistants for eg special needs kids, cannot find male assistants
despite it being inappropriate for a woman to change a boy's diaper and such
because it's far too risky for a male to be in a position of care for a child
vague shuttle
Just the fact that being White male etc etc makes ur opinion invalid according to sum people
sand goblet
Yeah, being white makes your opinion invalid
being male makes you stupid or sex-driven
cosmic quiver
depends on the topic
sand goblet
exactly
stark prawn
Is that a real thing there? The working with children thing.
cosmic quiver
A white person probably doesn't have a valid opinion on discrimination around race because they don't tend to experience it
sand goblet
yes, it's a real thing
actually, I am actively discriminated against in the workplace
both because of my race and my gender
vague shuttle
Bullshit @cosmic quiver
sand goblet
and they are systematic - that is to say, required by law
there's a recent controversy uncovered relating to Microsoft as well
where people in charge of hiring are being paid bonuses to hire everyone but white males
vague shuttle
@ava statments like that are discrimantinf in itself
wet steppe
your ping didnt ping
cosmic quiver
ΒΏ?
wet steppe
IDK why
sand goblet
here's the thing
you have two ways to solve problems like this
you can take the high road and do what organisations like djangogirls do
educate, provide opportunities
to those that normally don't have them
or you can take the low - but easier - road of discriminating against the groups that you don't value
the latter is what is happening because it's easy to get media support for it, it's easier to implement
cosmic quiver
In what bubble do you live where you think it's discrimination when your opinion is called worthless on a topic that you do not have any experience about
vague shuttle
I like Morgan Freeman approach, stop talking abot it and it will eventually fade into oblivion
sand goblet
You don't know that I have no experience on it @cosmic quiver
cosmic quiver
Do you think it's unfair that when people are building nuclear constructors they don't ask your opinion on it
sand goblet
you are assuming that based on my colour
vague shuttle
(not exactly but u get The idea)
sand goblet
that is why it's discrimination
cosmic quiver
Do you think it's unfair that an engineer might not care about your opinion on airplane safety
sand goblet
that isn't even a fair comparison
cosmic quiver
It is precisely the exact same thing
sand goblet
no, it's not even close
cosmic quiver
Yes?
vague shuttle
Its not lol
sand goblet
okay, well let me explain then
cosmic quiver
Please elaborate
sand goblet
You have an airplane safety expert looking at something
Doing what they do
And someone waltzes up and starts talking to them
The airplane engineer looks at the person and sees that their toolbelt is different to theirs, and immediately assumes they know nothing and tells them to shut up
the problem I have with your outlook on this is that you aren't giving anyone a chance to show that they may have some experience or something useful to contribute
you just go "oh, you're white, go away"
sand goblet
that is what you said
cosmic quiver
It is clearly not
sand goblet
You said that I, as a white male, should be excluded from these conversations about racism, because clearly I've never experienced it for myself
Yet you have no clue whether I have or haven't
cosmic quiver
I said it's not discrimination when people tell your opinion is worthless
sand goblet
Unless you're telling me that people being racist to white people isn't a thing - or that I couldn't possibly have worked with black people or people of other colours with their problems relating to it
cosmic quiver
That implies they already know it
sand goblet
Except, they never do
I'm not gonna cry discrimination if it's obvious I know nothing about the subject lol
plucky ridge
Okay what is going on?
sand goblet
we're not talking about that
plucky ridge
And or are we keeping it civil and calm
sand goblet
I feel fine
plucky ridge
Because I feel like this could go south reeeaaaaaallly fast
sand goblet
It's okay, Ava and myself have a lot of experience discussing this stuff
(although I wish I didn't)
plucky ridge
Then don't?
sand goblet
don't have experience?
plucky ridge
-sighs- Have the discussion
cosmic quiver
(γ»_γ»γΎ ?
plucky ridge
Or if you do, have it between you two. Like I said, this could get real bad real fast if someone misinterprets and jumps in
I'm just trying to prevent a weird shitshow
sand goblet
Oh, you'd prefer we moved it out of the server? That's fair
cosmic quiver
oki doki I'll not
sand goblet
Do you wanna DM, Ava, or have we discussed enough?
plucky ridge
Yeah you guys discuss what you want, but it could easily cause a ruckus in the server.
Love you guys
sand goblet
Yeah, sorry, didn't think of that
cosmic quiver
I'd rather not dm
sand goblet
OK, that's fine, no worries
wet steppe
in before hemlock bans everyone
plucky ridge
I am a benevolent admin
wet steppe
TF2
plucky ridge
It just feels too different
lone otter
same
stark prawn
I've been doing borderlands ever since 3 was announced.
plucky ridge
I cut my teeth on the old Team Fortress on Quake
wet steppe
modern TF2 and fortnite are basically the same game
lilac glade
Don't say that in front of Volcyy.
wet steppe
is there anything coming out in 2019
sand goblet
Mostly stuff like freak fortress and smash fortress
plucky ridge
Yeah and that's probably the reason. I'm in it for the vanilla
Working with your team to push the cart
plucky ridge
There's just so many new weapons and they never got properly balanced or adjusted
lone otter
I play a lot more casual than community server stuff
plucky ridge
Valve switched to making money mode and it just... eh
sand goblet
Nah, they are pretty balanced now
lone otter
glances at market gardener