ot1-perplexing-regexing

[rough sapphire]

Id argue of the top streamers, a good amount of them are female

sure there's probably more male streamers

but most of them have 0-2 viewers

[wraith flower]

In 2022, 78.36% of Twitch users are male, and 19.64% are female

[rough sapphire]

and of top 100 streamers?

[wraith hound]

...and?

that doesn't do anything to invalidate the existence of a cultural bias.

[wraith flower]

The Twitch leak from 4chan confirmed what a lot of people already know: The majority of the platform’s most successful content creators are men

Out of the top 100 creators, only three of them are women

[rigid prawn]

it's indicative that the biological drive is stronger than any cultural bias

[wraith flower]

https://www.kotaku.com.au/2021/10/only-three-per-cent-of-twitchs-top-earning-streamers-are-women-apparently/

[wraith hound]

how so?

i fail to see the correlation there

[rigid prawn]

because of the way that it is

[wraith hound]

that explains absolutely nothing, i'm afraid

[rigid prawn]

Women in Western nations have freedom. They overwhelmingly choose not to go into science. Women in oppressive nations do not have freedom. They often choose to go into science as a means of escaping poverty. This is indicative of the fact that women, as a group, are less interested in computer science and math than men are

[rough sapphire]

I stand corrected

[wraith hound]

freedom has absolutely nothing to do with cultural biases

i don't think you're fully understanding what that term means

[wraith flower]

As someone in a non western, but historically oppressive nation, this is not true. The ratio for female:male students in my BSc was around 1:8

[rigid prawn]

You can say what you want, but women overwhelmingly choose not to go into science when they have the freedom to do so

[solid elbow]

93% of Arabs choose to be Muslims. Is that because their Arab ethnicity has biologically predisposed them to believe in Allah?

[rigid prawn]

Your anecdote doesn't disprove that women in Western nations statistically choose computer science less often than women from other "oppressive" nations

[rough sapphire]

beliefs and interests are two different topics, in my opinion

you could argue they're interrelated, but I was raised christian, it didn't affect my interests outside of religion

[solid elbow]

Whether they are or not, "coding is a boys job" is a belief.

[rigid prawn]

It's literally not the same. One group of women has a choice, the other has less of a choice. When given more freedom, women are less likely to choose computer science

[wraith hound]

cultural bias does not imply a hard barrier or a lack or freedom. all it means is that, generally, society tends to predispose someone to certain ideas by exposing them to certain trends or telling them that one thing is more "accepted."

[solid elbow]

which group has less of a choice?

I'm not sure I follow the argument you're making.

[rigid prawn]

Women in Muslim nations ostensibly have less freedom than women in Western nations

yet they are more likely to become engineers, despite the misogyny and assumptions of stupidity in those countries

that is to say, when given more freedom, women are more likely not to become engineers

[solid elbow]

oh, that depends very much on the nation - that's absolutely not true across the board.

[rigid prawn]

https://engineering.purdue.edu/ENE/News/the-stem-paradox-why-are-muslimmajority-countries-producing-so-many-female-engineers

[rough sapphire]

I'm going to dip out of this convo, because I don't think either side is going to make any progress here... but I will leave you with this thought... even with all the marketing, the STEM, the preferential treatment through the educational and interview/promotion processes, females account for a minority in CS. Even when the path has been made easier, they're encouraged and pushed towards CS, they still don't even equate to anywhere close to HALF of the students/developers... that'd suggest that naturally, girls have less of an interest in going into these fields

[solid elbow]

there are Muslim nations where women are oppressed - but that's not inherent to Islam, and it's not true of all Muslim nations. And it's not related to my point, which is simply that the beliefs and attitudes of the people we grew up around influence our behavior throughout our lives.

[rough sapphire]

the fact that all the marketing and positive reassurance hasn't even begun to anywhere near level out the gender diversification of newly enrolling students, suggests that it is nature, not nurture.

in my opinion

[solid elbow]

that'd suggest that naturally, girls have less of an interest in going into these fields
That's one possible conclusion, but another is simply that changing the beliefs of a society is hard, and despite the very visible PR campaign in favor of women joining STEM, it still doesn't outweigh the long standing cultural biases.

[rough sapphire]

but anyway, ima dip now. Was an interesting debate though, and thanks to everyone for being civil throughout! 🙂 hope you all have a great day

[graceful basin]

While they can choose to go into engineering easier, they can also choose most other fields and still be fine. As you say, oppressed women get fewer options, and so STEM is more appealing. But when you can go into fields with fewer such biases, a lot of people will choose that.

[rigid prawn]

That's your assumption. The most probable answer is that the differences are biological

[rough sapphire]

imo all of the marketing and money and positive press swings have done jack crap to fix the long standing systemic issues that cause a woman to not want anything to do with the field

[solid elbow]

what makes that more probable?

[wraith hound]

why is that the most probable? there are a number of conclusions to draw.

[wraith flower]

And that's your assumption

[rigid prawn]

Every presentation of evidence to you guys is met with "there's just a magical force across all nations culturally that makes things this way"

the most likely answer is not that, it's human biology

[graceful basin]

It is working, just poorly.

[rough sapphire]

slowly

not poorly

an indirect solution applied to a problem

[wraith flower]

It is working. Woman representation in tech has gone up in the past 10 years, just at a slow rate

[solid elbow]

I find that pretty improbable. It seems quite unlikely to me that there's some gene that codes for "interest in software development"

[wraith hound]

are there better solutions? as much as some wish you could, you can't just reach into the brains of an entire society and root out biases.

[rigid prawn]

Your genes literally affect every single aspect of your body, mind, and personality

[solid elbow]

sure, but so does the environment you were raised in, and the food that you eat.

[graceful basin]

Yeah, I do wish there was a less intrusive way.

[rigid prawn]

It doesn't matter how great a diet you give to a dog, they will never learn to read

it's the same for people

[solid elbow]

... no?

[rigid prawn]

yes

[solid elbow]

if you give people a good enough diet, they can definitely learn to read.

[rough sapphire]

i have no better solution no... i just see a common exasperation of voices decrying that women do not take advantage of all the paths paved for them when those paths lead to the same cesspool we would rather avoid. i respect those that walk the path as they make the largest change

[rigid prawn]

If they were born biologically incapable of reading, they would not

[solid elbow]

well, sure - but, clearly women aren't biologically incapable of coding, so I don't see what point you're trying to make.

there are zero dogs who read, but a non-zero number of women who code.

[wraith hound]

i just see a common exasperation of voices decrying that women do not take advantage of all the paths paved for them
i didn't realize that was something people felt. that's bizarre to me, so i don't exactly have a comment on that.

[rigid prawn]

that women are biologically inclined not to study computer science

[solid elbow]

you've offered no evidence to back up what is quite an extraordinary claim.

[rigid prawn]

https://engineering.purdue.edu/ENE/News/the-stem-paradox-why-are-muslimmajority-countries-producing-so-many-female-engineers

[graceful basin]

Again, before the 80s, CS interest by women was about even with most other fields. So unless you think every woman in the 80s decided that they in fact do not want to study CS but want to keep studying the other fields, I don't think your point lines up with reality

[rigid prawn]

and once again, women have been the majority of college graduates for half a century

if they were going to study computer science as a group, they probably would have done so by now

[solid elbow]

where does this suggest a biological answer for the difference?

[graceful basin]

That is an interesting article though

[rigid prawn]

Women with more freedom are less likely to study computer science, women with less freedom are more likely to do so. Give the chance, women do not study computer science, as a group

[graceful basin]

Because CS is more full of biases than other fields, while not providing sufficient advantages over those other fields

[solid elbow]

even if all those statements are true, it doesn't imply a biological cause.

[rough sapphire]

it is a path to making change that is needed. it is also a very poor place to exist, a minority in technology. on one hand we should walk the path and push all those to do so lest the majority win with "see, u do not want this" and take it away. on the other hand the chances of avoiding harassment, prejudice, and assault seem so low that it makes one question their own sanity to go through with it

[rigid prawn]

It does, unless you're saying the culture between all those Muslim nations and all Western nations is somehow magically the same

[solid elbow]

another possible cause is that women with less freedom lack the freedom to choose not to study computer science, for instance.

[rigid prawn]

Yes, exactly. When given freedom, women do not study hard science

[solid elbow]

in some societies.

[rigid prawn]

In the majority of Western nations

[graceful basin]

Because hard science is full of sexism, and other fields aren't.

[rigid prawn]

and probably all other nations as well, cultures made equal

[solid elbow]

My impression is that Malaysia has pretty reasonable gender equity - is that impression wrong?

[rigid prawn]

You'd expect them to be even more sexist in oppressive nations

[wraith hound]

you've still provided exactly 0 evidence to indicate that this is because of nature. none of us are arguing this in terms of people who have no choice, we're arguing for people who do have choices and don't do this for other reasons.

[graceful basin]

Relative to other fields, not really

[solid elbow]

that is, I don't believe women are being repressed in Malaysia, and the article says that they're still more likely to enter CS

[young shoal]

did you even read the article lol,

Passion for the field is important, but assuming that passion flows from biology or that it’s somehow innate ignores the ways in which culture and policy can reinforce girls’ STEM capabilities early on and encourage passion to develop.

[rigid prawn]

that's their opinion

they probably wouldn't be able to publish at all if they had suggested there is a biological basis

which is all too common

[solid elbow]

Let's say I asked 100 people to choose between a bicycle and a scooter while my friend held a gun to their heads and told them to pick scooters, and all of them chose scooters. When I repeated the study by myself (no friend, no gun), only 30 chose scooters. Does that imply that the 100 participants in the second study were biologically predisposed towards biking?

[rough sapphire]

Iceland the most gender-equal country on Earth... 24% of CS students are female... There's significant evidence to suggest it is more nature than nurture

https://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/vgalpin1/ps/Gal02a.pdf

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/07/gender-equal-countries-gender-gap/

there is significant evidence there to suggest it is 24%

[graceful basin]

CS is an international field (well, more an American field). I don't think it makes sense to separate countries to this degree

[rigid prawn]

25.8 on this one, pretty close: https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/women-earned-the-majority-of-doctoral-degrees-in-2020-for-the-12th-straight-year-and-outnumber-men-in-grad-school-148-to-100/

[rough sapphire]

which further weakens the argument that it is cultural, as not all countries have similar cultural beliefs

[graceful basin]

It's cultural among CS professionals, not among countries

[solid elbow]

you see it even here - the moderation staff has to deal with "there are no girls on the internet" jokes constantly.

[rough sapphire]

but there's evidence of these decisions being made in pre-schoolers, as per the study I circulated earlier... I'm not sure the CS culture would have had a chance to impact a pre-schooler?

[rigid prawn]

This is exactly what I'm talking about, every presentation of evidence is again met with "there's some magic cultural force doing this"

[solid elbow]

and there are many women on our staff who prefer not to be "out" as women on a coding server.

[rough sapphire]

ye, pretty not fun

[rigid prawn]

Do you think that the CS cultures of Malaysia, the US, and Iceland are more similar than human biology across all those nations?

[rough sapphire]

understandably so. but I'd argue the opinions of pre-pubescent teens on the internet shouldn't affect your career choices, and if it does, you likely don't belong in a highly competitive field anyway

you need to have a level of self-belief and determination

[graceful basin]

Those teens are your peers who you have to learn from and cooperate with

You can't lone wolf your way through CS

[rough sapphire]

oh, u can not blame it on teens/youth alone

[solid elbow]

you're proposing a biological difference without any suggestion as to what the mechanism for that difference might be, or where it arises from. Those suggesting cultural differences can point to very concrete mechanisms by which young women are trained to believe in "boy" jobs versus "girl" jobs.

[wraith flower]

Paper you linked states the following factors for higher $ of woman in STEM fields:
girls-only-schooling, compulsory math/science in secondary school, family friendly societies

So just having the support system to not push you away from STEM fields increases the % of woman in those fields

[rigid prawn]

Why are there more girls in "boy jobs" is very sexist Muslim countries then?

[solid elbow]

it seems much more like magical thinking to ignore the concrete mechanisms by which women are underrepresented in certain jobs in media and education and the like in favor of a conclusion that there must be some unknown biological cause.

[solid elbow]

are those countries "very sexist"?

[rigid prawn]

I don't have to point to a specific fold in the brain or gene to make an educated guess that the matter is biological

[solid elbow]

sure, but you're ignoring cultural factors that are literally in your face.

[rigid prawn]

Moreso than Iceland

[rough sapphire]

Would you agree males and females have different chemical composition within their bodies that can affect their moods differently?

[rigid prawn]

Biology has a greater effect, that was the discussion

[solid elbow]

but you're just guessing at that.

it's possible that you're right, but it seems quite unlikely to me.

[rough sapphire]

No we’re not, there’s evidence testosterone makes males more aggressive, etc

Chemical differences in the brian are biological and affect our moods

Affect how we feel, what we enjoy

[rigid prawn]

No, I'm not. Women are statistically less likely to study science when they aren't literally forced to. What other factor besides biology would be a common undercurrent in literally all nations around the globe

[solid elbow]

it actually doesn't. Higher testosterone doesn't coincide with greater aggression.

[rough sapphire]

I assure you it does, i’ve taken many steroid cycles

[solid elbow]

they're likely to have few female role models who code, for instance.

[rigid prawn]

transmen who begin testosterone use are open about how it made them more aggressive/sexual, so I think you are incorrect

[rough sapphire]

Top link, study evidenced it does too

[graceful basin]

How do you explain the development in women in CS from 1966-1980, where it went up about equally with medicine, law, etc.

[rough sapphire]

The brians chemical composition affects our moods and interests, that is well evidenced facts

As are the biological chemical composition differences between males and females

There is a significant amount of evidence to come to the conclusion that it is nature mroe than nurture

[rough sapphire]

fun fact, so does estrogen

[graceful basin]

What is it that made specifically women stop studying CS as much during after 1984 in contrast to e.g
medicine and law

[rigid prawn]

I don't know the study you are talking about, and I'd argue that this 50 year period of women not fervently pursuing computer science is pretty good evidence that they just naturally do not

[solid elbow]

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-testosterone-alone-doesnt-cause-violence/ for instance:

"[Historically,] researchers expected an increase in testosterone levels to inevitably lead to more aggression, and this didn't reliably occur," says Frank McAndrew, a professor of psychology at Knox College in Galesburg, Ill. Indeed, the latest research about testosterone and aggression indicates that there's only a weak connection between the two.

[wraith hound]

i don't think it's being debated that hormones affect emotions in some way. the question is whether biology gives one an innate predisposition to study CS.

[rough sapphire]

but is it not reasonable to assume that if chemical composition can effect our moods and physical abilities that drastically, it is also a more likely contributor to our interests than cultural influence, especially when almost every culture on earth is involved

[rigid prawn]

If what we feel and enjoy is not computer science, then we would not pursue computer science

[graceful basin]

Because colleges simply didn't accept women to a meaningful degree. This is the graph I was talking about https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/17/356944145/episode-576-when-women-stopped-coding?

[wraith hound]

okay? so that's a possible correlation. but there's no proof that that correlation exists, nor that it's actually what causes people to choose computer science. nor that it is more significant than any of many other possible factors.

[solid elbow]

it seems reasonable enough to concede that there could be unknown biological factors at play that make women less likely to pursue CS, but it seems totally unreasonable to discount the very obvious cultural factors at play.

[wraith hound]

same thing i said above ^

[rigid prawn]

It's the most probably reason. Human biology is more static across nations around the world than is culture

[rough sapphire]

as is true for the cultural influence

so we're left to assess which is the most likely

and as there's strong evidence that biological composition has a vast impact on every other factor of our lives, it's reasonable safe to assume it would also affect our interests

[solid elbow]

hm - why?

even if they're equally likely, but only one is under our control - shouldn't we still try to address that, since it has a 50% chance of being beneficial?

[rigid prawn]

Because cultures around the world are not the same, but we keep seeing the same results

[rigid prawn]

it's not necessarily 50%, it could be far less than 50% and probably is

[solid elbow]

you've misunderstood my question, I think. My question was why we need to decide which of the two scenarios is more likely at all.

[rough sapphire]

no, because you're encouraging people into fields that they are not passionate about just because they have a certain biological makeup. Without the passion and drive, they will not succeed.

[solid elbow]

I don't agree, but - fine, even if it was 10%, wouldn't it still be worth addressing?

[rough sapphire]

If a woman wants to go into STEM, she should be encouraged to and should be given all the same opportunities as a man who wants to go into STEM

BUT

[young shoal]

it's not about encouraging people into fields they're not interested in, it's about removing barriers for people that are potentially interested

[rough sapphire]

we should not be marketing and trying to encourage people into STEM when they don't express a genuine interest

[rigid prawn]

Because you can't feed a dog a special diet that will make it capable of reading. In the same way, there's not much you can do to get people excited about science if they are literally biologically incapable/unwanting to do science

[rough sapphire]

or we'll end up with people in my position

10 years into a career they have no interest in, because they were pushed into it by others because it's a 'good career'

u know u can change career right?

[graceful basin]

As if CS isn't full of men who just want the paycheck and don't gaf about the science.

[rigid prawn]

Women have been the majority of college graduates for half a century. There is a hiring bias against men in STEM. How much more needs to be done?

Why can't we just admit that maybe there aren't as many women interested in computer science as men?

[rough sapphire]

what we should do is: give every person on earth the same opportunities, the same education, and let them choose the path they wish to follow

not market certain courses

[solid elbow]

sure, but they're literally not. There are female coders. They like it. It's a totally reasonable conclusion that some number of females would enjoy coding if given the opportunity, but will be blocked from pursuing it by societal barriers. And if so, removing those societal barriers helps them.

[wraith hound]

national culture isn't being discussed. it's a question of the culture of computer science.

and it could also be argued that nationality is less signficant, to some extent, in the last (couple?) decade. we've (computer scientists) become increasingly more connected via the internet, which is distinctly a global network.

[rough sapphire]

yes, I'm in the process of doing so, hence why I'm in this discord. but i'm having to work 60-80 hour weeks to upskill myself to swap careers

and I've wasted the last 10 years of my career

[rigid prawn]

Some women like and enjoy computer science, apparently most do not, and no amount of encouragement will get them to enjoy it unless you are literally forcing them to do something they would not otherwise do

[rough sapphire]

all because I was encouraged into a field I didn't have a genuine passion for

[young shoal]

we could, but why would we? there is clearly a cultural force pushing girls away from programming

[rough sapphire]

if u have nothing of value from 10 years of ur life, that is on u. i wish u the best in the career change and am happy u r finally doing it

[rough sapphire]

there is a clearer biological force

[wraith hound]

because while you believe that to be true, we disagree.

[solid elbow]

but surely you agree that some percentage of women would enjoy it, and some percentage of those will be blocked from doing it because of societal pressures?

[honest star]

Damn. Tonight's a bad night to be a woman in this channel I guess.

[rough sapphire]

is not every night?

[rigid prawn]

The implication is that men are better suited to phoning it in, in that context than women are. That contradicts nothing said here

[solid elbow]

well, that depends - do you like arguing? 😄

[rough sapphire]

oh I have plenty, I have money and I am in an elevated position in my field, in charge of multi million dollar jobs... but I don't have job satisfaction, no.

[honest star]

There usually isn't such overt sexism.

[young shoal]

we're not arguing which is more clear. even if that was the case, we can't do anything about biological factors. why not focus on things we can change?

[wraith hound]

why? you've provided no evidence to suggest that, for some reason, biology plays more of a role than cultural influences.

[rough sapphire]

I work for the money, not for the passion

[rough sapphire]

we've provided plenty, it's just fallen on blind eyes

[rigid prawn]

The number who enjoy it and are being barred from the field is probably much smaller than the number of men being barred from the field now by the absurd quotas that exist

[honest star]

To justify my existence in a male dominated field? lol no thanks

[rough sapphire]

overt, sure, but usually all over this server as it is in the internet

[wraith hound]

i've seen the evidence you posted, and i see no correlation /shrug i guess that could be considered a "me thing"?

[rigid prawn]

It's clearly not. As was pointed out earlier, Iceland is the world's most gender equal nation, and you have fewer women entering computer science than in "oppressive" Muslim nations

[rough sapphire]

there's no sexism going on in this debate either

[solid elbow]

I've never heard of any company that has quotas. In fact, quotas on the basis of sex would generally be illegal in my country.

[rough sapphire]

blind take

[solid elbow]

you're the only one who has said that those Muslim nations are oppressive, FWIW.

[karmic gust]

you're aware that different countries have different cultures?

[rough sapphire]

okay, so why is iceland, the most gender-equal country on earth, not seeing equal intake of female and male students in CS studies, if the reason is nurture not nature?

[rigid prawn]

Yes, and that across all those cultures we consistently see women choosing not to go into STEM

[karmic gust]

you just said there is a difference in the numbers between countries

[tardy rain]

they might not be very public about it but there sure are some sort of quotas

[karmic gust]

kinda seems like you're arguing both sides

[rough sapphire]

The point is, no matter the cultural influences and gender equalities of the country, the CS intake for females remains around the 30% mark. Therefore, it is more reasonable to suggest it is a result of natural interests than cultural influence

[wraith hound]

because "most gender equal" means very little when you're talking about a global culture.
and "most" is exactly that, most. it's not entirely.

[young shoal]

it's indirect. say a university wants to have 50% girls, 50% guys in CS. if twice as many guys apply compared to females, then more guys will be rejected

[solid elbow]

my understanding of US law is that hiring quotas based on gender are not legal.

[rough sapphire]

Furthermore, the CS female intake has REDUCED during the same period the marketing/proaganda has INCREASED

if it were cultural, they should be correlated.

[wraith flower]

Woman in tech have increased in the past 10 years

[rigid prawn]

Yes, men who want to go to these schools are being tossed out in favor of women who hypothetically might want to go. That's the issue

[tardy rain]

its illegal here in the UK as well but I can literally see it happen with my own two eyes, my girlfriend works for an org that does this

[rough sapphire]

I've experienced this within a company in the civil engineering field too

[rigid prawn]

Based on race is also illegal, yet here we are

[rough sapphire]

negative. I posted the study earlier.

[young shoal]

that's not at all what i said 🤔. an applicant wants to go to a school, that's why they applied

[solid elbow]

but they're not? The class size is fixed in advance, they choose the number of slots they'll have, and they accept that many people.

whether they accept 100 men or 50 men and 50 women, they have accepted 100 people who wanted to enroll.

[rough sapphire]

@wraith flower

[wraith flower]

Yes... that shows an increase in the past 10 years?

[solid elbow]

but that does show an upward trend for the last 10 years?

it's also a weirdly cherry picked set of years, for some reason

[rigid prawn]

a massive 2% wow

[solid elbow]

it seems like really misleading presentation of the data.

[rigid prawn]

does that justify all the millions spent trying to goad a group of people with little interest in a subject, into that subject?

[rough sapphire]

I assume you missed my earlier statement of my former employers promotion procedures?

[young shoal]

it's every 5 years until 2018, which is when the data was collected i'm guessing. looks ok

[solid elbow]

a 3 percentage point increase, but a 17% increase.

[rough sapphire]

yes, of 2%. Arguably static, as it was the exact same % in 2005-2006. So static enrollment, and a HUGE marketing/propaganda campaign

a HUGE swing in cultural attitudes

vastly more accepting of different genders, races, transexuals, skin colours, religions

yet minimal to no shift in CS uptake

and you still argue it's cultural?

when there's absolutely no correlation

[solid elbow]

I'm quite surprised at how many people are arguing that a campaign to say "you can be anything you want to be when you grow up" is bad.

[rough sapphire]

that is a GREAT campaign

[rigid prawn]

from 1970 at 14% to 2020 at 21%, that is to say a 7% increase over 50 years

literally why?

[solid elbow]

that's a 50% increase.

[rough sapphire]

a campaign that says, however, 'IT DOESN"T MATTER WHAT YOU"RE INTERESTED IN, ENTER CS' is not a positive campaign, in my opinion

[solid elbow]

sure. But that campaign doesn't exist.

[young shoal]

i don't think anyone was advocating for that

[solid elbow]

that's a strawman.

[wraith flower]

I haven't seen any campaigns like this anywhere

[rigid prawn]

No, it's 14% of all degrees compared to 21% of all degrees

[rough sapphire]

there's a vast difference between encouraging interests (aka "you can be anything you want when you grow up") and encouraging careers (aka 'we need more women in this industries to claim we're diverse, so you should be this.')

[rigid prawn]

and a 50% increase isn't much if the number was small to begin with

[rough sapphire]

yikes

[young shoal]

i haven't seen any of the latter. most of what i see is like the former

[solid elbow]

right, so the proportion of CS degrees awarded to women increased by 50% over that time span.

[rough sapphire]

I've never seen a campaign that didn't align with the latter personally

'women in construction' 'women in stem' etc

where's the women in hairdressing events?

the men in nursing events?

[solid elbow]

I have absolutely seen men in nursing events.

[young shoal]

that's not "women must join stem", it's "women should try stem"

[solid elbow]

women in hairdressing are over-represented, so that one wouldn't make much sense.

[rough sapphire]

we even had mandatory women in construction events at our college

[rigid prawn]

that's a very small number for half a century, considering the number was small to begin with

[rough sapphire]

they forced women to attend women in construction events

and that's not the latter campaign?

[rough sapphire]

boop https://westcoastuniversity.edu/blog/wcu-la-men-in-nursing-nov-2018

[rigid prawn]

There are far more "women in this" events than there are "men in that"

[tardy rain]

i think its other men holding men back from entering the nursing industry more than women
whereas its men that are holding women back in most cases from entering STEM

[rigid prawn]

I really don't think that is correct

[solid elbow]

if equity would be 51%, then an increase from 14% to 21% is a not-insubstantial increase. It closes the gap by around 20% (from women making up ~2/7ths to ~3/7ths of the split they'd equitably have). But yes, we should do better.

[rough sapphire]

I don't believe so, I believe there is 'positive discrimination' towards women in STEM careers

they're generally given easier paths to progress, from what I've experienced

[tardy rain]

you've never seen people called gay or feminine for being nurses?

[rough sapphire]

I have, yes.

[rough sapphire]

oh?

[tardy rain]

ok, and who is more likely to use those insults? men or women?

[rigid prawn]

Women, probably

[solid elbow]

what do you mean by "easier paths to progress"?

[rough sapphire]

i would like to know as well

[tardy rain]

its men that perpetuate this false machismo BS

[rigid prawn]

There is a hiring bias in STEM against men: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.01532/full

[wraith flower]

I'd also like to know these easier paths. Would love to share it with more women

[solid elbow]

it is true that, given a choice between equally qualified candidates, employers will generally prefer the one that increases diversity of the team being hired into. But that's not really an "easier path", it's a tie breaker that benefits underrepresented groups.

[rough sapphire]

my former employer (civil engineering) had a policy that of all promotions, atleast 25% had to be female. Whilst females simultaneously made up approximately 10% of the workforce. You had 90% of the workforce fighting for 75% of the promotions and 10% of the workforce fighting for 25% promotions. That's not an easier path to progress in your eyes?

would you rather be 10% fighting for 25% or 90% fighting for 75%?

this is one of the largest companies in our industry by the way

a multi-billion dollar multinational company

[rough sapphire]

no, that is a situational anecdote in my eyes

Another employer I worked for advertised a role and refused to review male CVs

[wraith hound]

either that, or celebrating that "yes, this is possible," usually with a side of "but yes, we can do better."

[rough sapphire]

because we 'needed more females in the office' and it was 'positive discrimination'

[rigid prawn]

it's literally not, the easiest and fastest way to get called gay in a derogatory manner is to decline a woman's advances

[tardy rain]

bad solutions to a problem dont mean that the problem isnt real

[rough sapphire]

that isn't an easier path?

[solid elbow]

that's bad. That's illegal in the US, FWIW.

[rigid prawn]

Easier to get hired in academia: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.01532/full

[rough sapphire]

correct. it was illegal where it took place too.

[rough sapphire]

we have proven u have had a poor track of employers, that is true

[solid elbow]

well, that's what whistleblower laws are for...

[tardy rain]

anyone who's been to school can tell you that kids call you things like these before you even think of showing interest to the opposite sex

[rough sapphire]

eh, the latter was one of the best employers I've worked for, regardless of their strange policies whereby they cared more about someone's gender than ability

but the former was a poor employer, I'll admit that

[rigid prawn]

I don't think a 28 year old male nurse is worried about what a random middle schooler thinks

[tardy rain]

people arent born 28 year old nurses

[rough sapphire]

but regardless, of the 3 employers I've worked for in this industry... two discriminated against males in favour of females

[solid elbow]

no, but a random middle schooler who might one day become or not become a 28 year old male nurse does.

[rough sapphire]

and the current one I work for somehow has 70% of a female workforce in an industry that has 24.8% females

[rough sapphire]

regardless of the blatant disregard for hiring practices they were pretty good. well, there u go.

[rigid prawn]

Probably not

[rough sapphire]

so I struggle to see how that would have occurred without similar policies

though I've not formally witnessed anything yet

[solid elbow]

You don't think peer pressure influences choices that lead to career paths?

[rough sapphire]

yes, but less so than nature

[wraith hound]

the large majority of male nurses were once random middle schoolers. the same applies to the rest of professions.,

the biases you develop are often from a very young age

[rigid prawn]

It's easier to get hired as a woman in academia, elsewhere too: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.01532/full

[solid elbow]

I disagree, but at least that's a defensible position.

[rigid prawn]

I literally do not know any men who would say that being called gay in middle school is more of a reason to not be a nurse than is the constant social attacks be female nurses as the only male nurse in a hospital

[rough sapphire]

i.e. if I sat in school and wanted to be a professional wrestler, I'd be ridiculed remorselessly, but if I truly wanted it, I'd still pursue that career path

[solid elbow]

that's wild. I feel like you and I live in radically different worlds.

[rough sapphire]

allow me to read ur article for u hun

in review:

Basically, everyone preferred the more accomplished X and Z candidates over the less accomplished Y candidate, regardless of Y's gender.

whereas if I was born with chemical compositions that made me less interested in being in the spotlight and physical confrontation, I wouldn't have been

[solid elbow]

bullying as a kid absolutely shaped my interests, and those interests shaped my aptitudes, and those interests and aptitudes shaped my education and career choices.

[rigid prawn]

You guys wanted to say that it's men "perpetuating machismo BS" I've never heard a grown man use "gay" as an actual insult, literally only adult women

[rough sapphire]

I agree, likewise.

BUT

I also had pre-defined interests before I went to school

before I went to nursery

[rigid prawn]

And when they were equal, they overwhelmingly chose the female applicants

[rough sapphire]

before I watched tv

before I was subjected to cultural influence, I had my interests

[thick osprey]

Try being gay. You'll hear it more.

This channel is SPICY today.

[rough sapphire]

those came from genuine natural instincts and interests

[solid elbow]

there was never a point in your life before you were subjected to cultural influences.

people are exposed to cultural influences from birth.

[rigid prawn]

the gay men I know also say that women are the ones insulting them for being gay. In fact I knew a lesbian who immediately started called my gay friend a flamer when he wouldn't agree with her

[wraith flower]

I was in an all boy school growing up. Gay and other homophobic slurs were extremely common

[rough sapphire]

yes, when both had to do the same amount of work to be of equal skill the choice was made on other factors

[rigid prawn]

And as an adult in medical school, who is more likely to start ostracizing you and throwing homophobic slurs around? Because it definitely wasn't the men

[solid elbow]

yeah, "smear the queer" was a schoolyard tackle/tag game when I was a kid.

[rigid prawn]

"Yes, all things equal, there was a massive privilege in being a woman"

[tardy rain]

there literally is no female version of the word "doctor" in my mother tongue

[rough sapphire]

jesus christ, did you grow up in the hood or something lmao

[rough sapphire]

because 'doctor' is unisex?

[solid elbow]

no, but rural area, and I'm probably older than many of the people here - this would have been in the early 90s.

[rough sapphire]

there's literally no female version of the word 'doctor' in english languages either?

[wraith flower]

I can't speak for that as I don't have any experience in that regard. I could reach out to the one male nurse I know, but considering he was called slurs even before starting nursing, I doubt his experience will fall in line with what you're saying

[rough sapphire]

doctor references an academic achievement, not a profession

[rough sapphire]

privilege? so both were equally deserving, put equal work toward the goal, and it is privilege when one is chosen?

you become a doctor by completing a phd

[tardy rain]

in english maybe

[rough sapphire]

it's a certification, not a gendered career

[rigid prawn]

"We both worked equally hard, how is it privilege that I got the job because I was born a woman?"

[rough sapphire]

yes that is what i am asking u

[tardy rain]

in actual languages lmao, the word doctor is male in greek for example

[rough sapphire]

you literally just stated that of two equal candidates, equal qualifications, experience and abilities, the female would get chosen more frequently than the male

[tardy rain]

there is no female version of the word, but somehow this wouldnt affect women from becoming one?

[rough sapphire]

no, because it is a qualification not a career.

you can have doctors of art

[tardy rain]

youre not following

[rough sapphire]

I'm struggling to understand why you're applying gender to an academic qualification, yes.

[rigid prawn]

You asked what easy paths women got, there you go

[tardy rain]

in languages that have a bit more depth than english, words have genders
if the language you speak isnt reflective to cultural thinking i dont know what is

[rough sapphire]

well we will just need to look up the other factors used to judge the applicant. hmm, probably boring stuff like likability, first impression, tone, control, and professionalism. bet that is a neat study

[solid elbow]

how was that "easy", if the woman worked equally hard as the man and became equally qualified?

[rough sapphire]

yes. and in french 'baguette' is gendered too... do you think that means females can't touch baguettes?

[rough sapphire]

you are ignoring that all the work to get there was equal

[rigid prawn]

there is no male or female version of the word "doctor" in English

[wraith flower]

I'm trying to find this in the paper, but I don't think this was even tested at all? So are you just making this claim out of thin air or have a credible source for this?

[tardy rain]

the world doesnt revolve around english

[rigid prawn]

And?

[rough sapphire]

but all being equal, that'd be equal too, no?

[rough sapphire]

CS does, technically

[rough sapphire]

why would it, it is no longer in their control. it is the choice of the employer which, as you have very helpfully pointed out, is biased as heck

[tardy rain]

occupations are gendered because of cultural norms at the time, its one example of how culture affects this "conscious decision" of joining a given profession

[rough sapphire]

I'm confused what you're asserting? you admit a gender bias in hiring etiquette but are simultaneously arguing that isn't a privilege?

[rough sapphire]

okay, but food products were also gendered. does that stop certain genders interacting with that food?

[rigid prawn]

the real answer is that they don't care

[rough sapphire]

the original claim was that women had an easier path to employment. from the sounds of it, after all the hard work is equal between, we just present ourselves better

[rough sapphire]

yes, the willingness to find an excuse for any evidence presented made that apparent 😛

[young shoal]

the study did not involve any actual candidates. it was just picking based on resumes, essentially

[rigid prawn]

I guess the fact that the majority of CS employees are men is that most men just present themselves better

[rough sapphire]

there's a number of conclusions that can be drawn. But it'd be fair to assume that people in the same position will have presented themselves similarly, given equal level of ability, experience etc... over a large dataset, you'd have a pretty even split between presentation of self

[solid elbow]

here's another way you could interpret it: when an employer has a policy to always break ties between equally qualified candidates in favor of the one that is a member of a historically underrepresented group, they're likely choosing the one that is a harder worker, since it takes more effort to gain the same credentials as a member of an underrepresented group.

[rough sapphire]

interesting take

I do agree that'd impact it somewhat

[rough sapphire]

and again i ask where is privilege in a choice that is out of your control? that is not privilege of a woman, that is sexism in the system. the very thing i wish would burn in the sun

[wraith flower]

Interesting debate, but it's extremely late for me. Gonna read up on this tomorrow

[solid elbow]

I do definitely agree that our attempts at equity shouldn't be getting us to take less qualified candidates, and we should always be looking at things through the lens of how we choose between candidates of comparable "quality"

[wraith flower]

.bm 1034969624078450820

[rough sapphire]

so you're arguing anything outside of your control is not a bias? so as women have full control to go into stem if they so choose, there's no bias?

you've just contradicted your entire argument

[rigid prawn]

You're arguing in favor of sexism, nobody has to support that

[solid elbow]

am I?

[rigid prawn]

and once again, the majority of college graduates have been women for half a century now, that doesn't sound marginalized to me

[rigid prawn]

yes

[rough sapphire]

and that's where we agree... hiring should be solely on ability to perform in the role

[rigid prawn]

it's literally systemic privilege

[rough sapphire]

i never claimed woman could not. i celebrated those that do. they are strong than i. i get enough harassment for my lifetime just being online

[young shoal]

and if they're entirely equal, why not increase diversity?

[rough sapphire]

no that is systemic sexism there is a difference

[rigid prawn]

Yes, you're privileged by that systemic sexism, congratulations on pretending not to be though

[rough sapphire]

as they should be. Those who CHOOSE OF THEIR OWN ACCORD to go into STEM fields should be given full support and utilities to do so. I'm not arguing against that

I'm arguing against just pushing anyone we can into STEM fields because we need to get the numbers up

did not say u were

if it's their passion, give them everything they need to thrive

if not, don't encourage them into something they might not enjoy and regret in 10 years, like I do

[rough sapphire]

thank u hun, i think

[rigid prawn]

You asked how women have an easier path, there it is, honey

[rough sapphire]

and it sucks that you are subjected to online harassment. I have to admit the internet as a whole is very biased towards men. Can't say I'd want to be a female on a chat server.

[rough sapphire]

all the work, and 'privilege' in the end

[rigid prawn]

Yes, you're privileged because a man who did all the work didn't get chosen while you did, explicitly because you're a woman

I'd say that makes life easier

[rough sapphire]

sounds about right for the source

[solid elbow]

it takes quite some mental gymnastics to argue that men are the underprivileged ones.

[rigid prawn]

This brings us back to the original statement

There is a hiring bias against men in STEM

[solid elbow]

"When you're accustomed to privilege equality feels like oppression."

[rigid prawn]

Is that why it's so hard for you guys to admit that being hired over an equally qualified man is privilege on your part?

systemic I might add

[rough sapphire]

I want to reiterate my point... hiring should not even consider gender, professional statistics should not even consider gender, we should not be segregating developers, nor aspiring developers, by their gender. The ONLY thing that should matter is the applicant's ability to perform in the role. Does anyone disagree with that?

[rigid prawn]

also, men and boys are discriminated against at all levels of education, I'd say you're pretty privileged not having to deal with that

[rough sapphire]

oh here we go

[rigid prawn]

When you're accustomed to privilege equality feels like oppression.

[rough sapphire]

tyler diggin in the heels

i will show myself out

[rigid prawn]

All I did was state a fact

[solid elbow]

I think I agree with all of that. I see attempts at equity through the lens of attempting to break echo chambers and find new sources of candidates for jobs, encouraging people from non-traditional backgrounds to apply, pushing for greater access for underrepresented groups to the educational prerequisites for a particular career, etc. At the point where we're considering candidates for a job, the most qualified candidate should get it.

equity in companies' hiring should come from finding ways to broaden the hiring funnel and find new sources of prospective candidates. It should never come from choosing less qualified candidates at the expensive of better ones.

and this is true regardless of what type of equity we're talking about - gender, race, class, etc.

[rigid prawn]

Just so you know, your privilege isn't just in academia or STEM, it's everywhere: https://www.linkedin.com/business/talent/blog/talent-acquisition/how-women-find-jobs-gender-report

make sure to be mindful of it going forward, you need to do better

[rough sapphire]

i need to do better? says Tyler?

[rigid prawn]

That's right hun

[rough sapphire]

I see nothing I disagree with there. I suppose the only difference between our viewpoints is how we interpret the marketing campaigns, and our personal experiences of them. Having been pushed into a career I don't particularly enjoy, I feel pretty strongly against advocating for a certain career path for people... where as you see it as broadening the funnel to provide more opportunities, which I also somewhat appreciate...

[solid elbow]

Perhaps women are more likely to be hired because they cost 30% less to employ.

[rigid prawn]

the wage gap is unironically a myth

[solid elbow]

has the rest of your position been ironic?

[rough sapphire]

oh u r just funny now

[solid elbow]

that would explain a lot

[rigid prawn]

https://fee.org/articles/harvard-study-gender-pay-gap-explained-entirely-by-work-choices-of-men-and-women/

https://fee.org/articles/harvard-study-gender-pay-gap-explained-entirely-by-work-choices-of-men-and-women/

[rough sapphire]

I do have to say that the pay gap is a myth. I've seen studies that negated it, plus it makes absolutely no commercial sense

If you, as an employer, could cut your operating costs by 30% and get the same output, you'd do so without blinking

[solid elbow]

it's not a myth, but it's true that it does disappear when you slice the data certain ways

[rough sapphire]

you also have to factor in things like maternity leave

[solid elbow]

one way to slice the data to make the gender wage gap disappear is to discount CEOs and senior executives.

since the positions with golden parachutes tend to be overwhelmingly filled with men.

[rigid prawn]

"If we just base our worldview off the Apex Fallacy..."

[rough sapphire]

Maternity leave likely impacts that somewhat. Can't say most businesses would operate smoothly without their senior staff for 9 months

[solid elbow]

many of the ones I've worked for would work better, I suspect

😏

[rough sapphire]

hahahah touche

anyway I gotta hop into a meeting

been a fun debate

[solid elbow]

there was a recent headline about how 75% of the time that you spend with your child in their lifetime will be spent by the time they're 12. It's actually quite tragic that lots of companies give men far less paternity leave than they give women maternity leave. It robs men of a huge amount of time with their children

parental leave policies are another place where I'd like to see far more equity.

[rigid prawn]

I think there should be more maternity/paternity leave, from what I understand the US has basically zero compared to other countries

I forget where it is, but the government sends couples basically a gift basket of baby stuff once they are expecting, it's really cute lol

[solid elbow]

Sweden

yeah, that's quite nice.

the US has essentially no social safety net in lots of dimensions, but yeah, parental leave is one of them.

[young shoal]

i got an email to schedule an interview, right. but the only available times were like within 30 hours of the email being sent

[solid elbow]

that's a little bit weird, but not totally unreasonable

usually I'd expect them to offer times over at least 2 days, but depending on their resources, and the availability of whoever is conducting the interview, that might not be possible.

if one of the times works for you, select it. If not, reach out and let them know that none of those times work for you, and you'd like to reschedule.

[young shoal]

yeah, i had it this morning. all the times were like, 8-8:45, 8:45-9:30, 9:30-10:15

[tardy rain]

hm, we have interviews scheduled today for next week, sounds more reasonable tbh

[rough sapphire]

last time i got an interview it was a phone review with about five minutes notice... one would like more warning

[solid elbow]

hah, wow. I've never had one on that short of notice, though I have had one or two days notice before...

[young shoal]

that sounds so bad

[rough sapphire]

i got the feeling mine was just a 'do we like the way you interact' for the call. got scheduled for a followup a few days later

[young shoal]

honestly interviews are a scam. just hire me 😭. i swear i'm qualified

[rough sapphire]

that is the right attitude!

[tardy rain]

lemme fix you up with this quality discord referral

[young shoal]

also i got asked the "how do you make 4 gallons with 3 and 5 gallon bucket" question as a technical question, which is like, possibly the most known "brain teaser" ever

[tardy rain]

Ohno, did you apply to jane street or something

[rough sapphire]

my flatmates will tell me stories of interview questions like that. so weird

u hiring for a game show or a developer?

[young shoal]

my friend got an internship there, but she's goated

[tardy rain]

How you gonna get them VCs swooning if you dont have pizazz

I swear im gonna get in some day, jane street or citadel

The dream is real and ongoing

[young shoal]

cope lmao

[tardy rain]

.wiki how to grow brain power

Fuck sake wiki help

[young shoal]

😔

[tardy rain]

Citadel people apparently highest paid finance techbros

Something like 650k GBP a year

[young shoal]

the other technical questions were really dumb 😔. one just asked you to read java code and say where the error was. the code was like

class Main{
psvm(String[] args) {
  Person p = null;
  p.setName("e");
}
}
``` and they asked what the error was 😔

[tardy rain]

They gave you java?

[young shoal]

yeah. oh another was

String a = "test";
String b = new String("test");

if (a == b)
  Sop("true")
else
  Sop("false")
``` what's the output

[tardy rain]

Is this a graduate role? I would think junior roles let you pick the language for problems

[young shoal]

internship. i think the role asked for java. and also the problems weren't about solving problems, just testing how well you knew java

[tardy rain]

Hm

Arent you gonna be bored at a job like that

[young shoal]

maybe ¯_(ツ)_/¯

better than chipotle lol

[tardy rain]

I guess

[young shoal]

do you have chipotle ~across the pond~

[tardy rain]

Part time or even full time role out of reach?

We do have chipotle, wtf

Its not even the best one

Smh

[solid elbow]

The Person class has not been imported, so this code will not compile.

[young shoal]

oh i didn't put the other part. it was an impl of Person something like

public class Person {
  // stuff
}
``` the assumption was it's in the same package i guess, so it would be fine

[solid elbow]

having eaten Mexican food in the UK, I assure you: the UK does not have Mexican food.

[wraith hound]

psvm isn't public static voic main, rejected

[young shoal]

i was supposed to point out that the implementation didn't have comments 😔

[wraith hound]

wait wtf

[tardy rain]

Mayhap not anything authentic but have you tried Wahaca

[young shoal]

is that oaxaca but butchered is that a proper noun lol

[solid elbow]

actually, yeah - it was fine.

[tardy rain]

Fuckin love me some wahaca

[solid elbow]

have you had Mexican food in the US?

[tardy rain]

No, but soon

[young shoal]

oh??

[solid elbow]

it's only a slight exaggeration to say that the worst Mexican I've had in the US is better than the best Mexican I've had in the UK.

[tardy rain]

GF is gonna drag me there for a trip so I assume i'll have some good food

[young shoal]

hm?

[wraith hound]

comments

that's not an error

it's just a "style thing"

[solid elbow]

though Wahaca was the best Mexican I've had in the UK (out of a not huge sample size)

[young shoal]

yeah, the context of the question was like, "what would you suggest your coworker change if they wrote this code" and i didn't see anything actually wrong, but missed "comments" when they prompted for "style" 😔

[wraith hound]

.>

i mean, i really don't think that needs a comment

[young shoal]

where 👀

[tardy rain]

Its the best of the chains, surely there must be some family owned small business mexican place that is better

[wraith hound]

hmm, i wonder what Person.setName does :ferrisClueless:

[tardy rain]

Colorado and a bunch of other states probably

[young shoal]

/shrug yeah, but i didn't argue, it's the principle

colorado is cute

[solid elbow]

the US is real, real big

be sure to plan out which states, and how you're getting between them, in advance 🙂

[tardy rain]

Literal square state

[solid elbow]

the first impression that people from Europe tend to have when they visit the midwest is shock about how absolutely empty it is

[young shoal]

no coast?

[thick osprey]

california is silly big for that statement... i did some work for the... um... something emergency agency after the fires there a few years ago. i remember being shocked at how big the area codes in it were. u could be in a code affected by fire but still hundred miles away easy

[young shoal]

also i need a security clearance for this job, so i need to remember everywhere i've been for the last 7 years 😔

[solid elbow]

yeah - huge state, with huge deserted areas.

a ton of California is just basically uninhabitable.

[thick osprey]

FEMA

that's the one

[tardy rain]

Probably more east coast, NY definitely and maybe MA for lovecraft reasons

[thick osprey]

darn meds

[young shoal]

😤 good choice 😤 NY kinda 👎, PA >

[solid elbow]

did you misread MA as PA?

[tardy rain]

Going off more on a foodmap
I want lobster bisque
Southern bbq
Tex mex

[young shoal]

no

[solid elbow]

Boston's nice. NYC is pretty nice, too, as long as you stay the hell away from Times Square

[wraith hound]

why does the triumph emoji looks like someone sneezing

[tardy rain]

Im sure Massachusetts was the inspiration for Arkham and related towns

[solid elbow]

the most touristy part of NYC is by far the worst part of NYC.

[thick osprey]

zip codes the size of my state, just silly!

[solid elbow]

Philadelphia is the US's only World Heritage CIty, though.

[thick osprey]

Though, what are you going to do with that much land really.

[solid elbow]

meth?

[thick osprey]

That's my home city...

[young shoal]

what's a world heritage city

[solid elbow]

https://whc.unesco.org/en/cities/

[young shoal]

oh, unesco thinks it's cool

ez 😤💪

[solid elbow]

basically.

[solid elbow]

ooh, be sure to try root beer while you're here

it's a common soft drink that Americans like and Europeans seem to hate, and I find that hilarious 😄

[tardy rain]

I've tried some already and its disgusting

[thick osprey]

Mmm, I miss me some Sarsaparilla.

[tardy rain]

why would anyone ever

[young shoal]

not old enough

[solid elbow]

lol, I have no idea why y'all dislike it so much 😄

[young shoal]

why is root beer called root beer again?

[tardy rain]

i think the only reason my gf likes it is because she dumps tubs of icecream in it

[solid elbow]

you can still get sarsaparilla, and it's quite good

[solid elbow]

the root beer float is a time honored tradition

[thick osprey]

Frosty mug, vanilla ice cream, and root beer.

[tardy rain]

why would you ruin ice cream like that

[solid elbow]

a coworker from Spain said that, to him, root beer tasted like he had brushed his teeth, and then spat the toothpaste foam out into a coke.

hilarious 😄

[thick osprey]

Concerningly specific.

Is your coworker.... okay?

[solid elbow]

he just avoids root beer now

(he also didn't like birch beer, but it was less visceral)

[thick osprey]

Understandable. I hope he avoids toothpaste foam and coke as well.

[low chasm]

Root beer is OK

It's better with ice cream though

[grave cove]

How is charge (Q) split when a 2nd identical capacitor is introduced into a circuit?

In series

Is it just a 50/50 split?

Or is it like how parallel components have the same potential difference (V)?

[acoustic moss]

all capacitors in series will have the same charge

regardless of their capacitance

the voltage across each capacitor will be different

[grave cove]

Will the voltage be split 50/50?

For 2 identical capacitors

[acoustic moss]

yeah

[grave cove]

ooh ty

[lusty rune]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAew-_3XMDU i choked on the first one

[velvet bolt]

Just block it and move on

[plain mauve]

So i just found this and i dont weather this a fake product or real

[tardy rain]

Why would it be fake?

.wiki 2002 FIFA World Cup

[median dome]

Wikipedia Search Results

2002 FIFA World Cup
The 2002 FIFA World Cup was the 17th FIFA World Cup, the quadrennial world championship for men's national football teams organized by FIFA. It was held

Brazil at the 2002 FIFA World Cup
At the 2002 FIFA World Cup, Brazil participated for the 17th time in the event. The country remained as the only national team to have participated in

Page 1/5 · Oct 27, 2022, 1:09 PM

[rough sapphire]

come come come guys

come use rust

[tardy rain]

Already do

[graceful basin]

Really preaching to the choir here

[lusty rune]

oh no

[acoustic moss]

lmfao

[jaunty wraith]

rust bad

that'll be all

[grave cove]

BAN HIM

BAN HIM NOW

[lusty rune]

promote to mod now!

[rough sapphire]

what are some good android phones but with small display

i mean its performance is good, everything is good but it just has a small display

[rough sapphire]

punishable act

[low chasm]

moderator intervention is required

[dapper dew]

Rust is a language

[low chasm]

good observation

[paper sequoia]

I got the problem fixed! Had to modify the endpoint a bit but it seemed to be a simple fix after all

[jovial oriole]

Bruh r/shitposting had instructions on how to refine uranium

[paper sequoia]

I think I found it

For chemistry homework reasons obviously

[grave cove]

Yeah they have instructions on all sorts of crazy stuff

[jovial oriole]

If they were removed I have them downloaded

A secret tool that will help us later

[flint basin]

already do

[low chasm]

whip my what now

[tardy rain]

The whop

[paper sequoia]

You got it downloaded 👀?

[grave cove]

🤨

mr sussy aboo

[wraith hound]

why are you all making things sounds cursed-er than they have to be

[jaunty wraith]

'tis the month for cursed things

[floral apex]

whips your Whopper

[low chasm]

what the fuck

[jaunty wraith]

*whop the fuck

[paper sequoia]

Why it has to be way too often something weird as soon as I open these channels

[jovial oriole]

A special tool that will help us later

There's three parts to it

Well I didn't actually download it

I just saved it

Didn't watch any of it either

No time

It's probably a troll

[graceful basin]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enriched_uranium#Enrichment_methods the process is described on wikipedia

afaik the hard part of processing uranium isn't the technology, but the sheer scale needed to get useful yields

[jovial oriole]

I dunno if he's joking but be says he's got 1 pound of thorium

[graceful basin]

yeah, I know nothing about thorium

[young shoal]

if i know anything from factorio, you need like 360 raw uranium for 1 u-235

[dapper dew]

Depends on the methods too, if you are using gas diffusion or centrifuges

Allegedly

Or a breeder reactor, theoretically

[harsh tundra]

Reminds me of the time in high school our teacher googled prices of uranium because our class decided we would love some

[violet roost]

and was it affordable?

[stable fulcrum]

@thick ore its a debian based distro that was made by a student

Its speciality is its gui which was made in node.js

It was the only distro that had most unique gui but it was discontinued before getting out of beta

[thick ore]

i actually have no idea how it works

[stable fulcrum]

Ok

[harsh tundra]

Not really, so we didn't make our small enrichment plant in class :c

[floral apex]

Sounds like Chrome OS

The whole "Linux distro uses a web based UI"

[violet roost]

aw pity

[carmine bane]

@violet root https://www.instagram.com/berlin.1969/?hl=en

[violet root]

let me see

[carmine bane]

Literally living off of like

3% body fat

Fucking insane

Pain everyday

[violet root]

his beard make his chin look more big

[carmine bane]

Ye

[violet root]

😅

[tardy rain]

Oh its that guy

His pics are modded

His gf or whoever photoshops them

[lusty rune]

saitama bod > gigachad bod

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/SxzPD8AwDwQ

[harsh tundra]

Ohno, I put a handmade plush i once got from a friend in a washing machine and it lost an eye...

But damn, it needs to be in the washing machine. Because moisture got in where it was and mold grew on it T.T

I put lots of borax and laundry disinfectant in there, I hope it all goes well

Hm, the buttob I saw near the door doesn't look like the one that the plush had as an eye... Maybe it was stuck to something else i threw in there

Plush asking for help :c

[carmine bane]

[harsh tundra]

It's all for its own good! I don't want to throw it out, so it has to go through tough de-mold-ing

(with hyphens because it's about mold, not molding)

[lusty rune]

c r u e l

[rough sapphire]

EVERYONE

We made a skribbl.io game in which all words are related to programming, if anyone wants to join use https://skribbl.io/?tzF6lkTwgRPc

[narrow pecan]

You gave me a scare there for a second. Thought it was a kid in a washing machine “asking for help”

[harsh tundra]

It's one of the foxes (or at least what my friend meant to be a fox, but made by someone who didn't really know what fox looks like)... So kinda like a child to me

My partner says it's an anteater

The face looks like that

[tardy rain]

uh, if i wanna ask an algos question in #algos-and-data-structs do i gotta spoiler things

[jaunty wraith]

idts, why do you think it should be

[tardy rain]

cause i wanna ask about a solution to a leetcode question

i would imagine some people would rather not see a solution out in the open

[young shoal]

doesn't really matter tbh ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[tardy rain]

ok well anyway

today's leet https://leetcode.com/problems/group-anagrams/

top python solution claims

class Solution:
    def groupAnagrams(self, strs: list[str]) -> list[list[str]]:
        groups = defaultdict(list)
        for s in strs:
            groups[frozenset(Counter(s).items())].append(s)
        
        return groups.values()
``` is linear, but isnt this O(n*m) where n is number of words and m is length of word

also somehow sorting the words and making tuples got me 99% speed even tho its slower technically

leetcode really do be trippin

[graceful basin]

the constraints are comically low
1 <= strs.length <= 10^4 0 <= strs[i].length <= 100

[tardy rain]

yea some how this is a medium, but i dont think it should be

[young shoal]

/shrug sorting is speedy and compact

[young shoal]

same code, 2x speed difference

[tardy rain]

hella yikes

[graceful basin]

yeah, leetcode timings are useless

[young shoal]

ig a bunch of people submitted code at the same time i did for the first one lul

[scenic blaze]

lol wow that's ridiculous

It didn't even get the MEMORY right?

[graceful basin]

memory variance can be explained with random python hash seeds causing less or more efficient hash distributions

[young shoal]

hmm. that wouldn't affect memory usage, just lookup time, right?

[graceful basin]

well, you can get a more unfavourable bucket distribution, forcing you to make more buckets sooner

[young shoal]

it doesn't use buckets though, it uses open addressing. afaik it only resizes based on the number of elements

[white delta]

I have a question, I was helping a friend take an old school Chromebook to take it off of school mode but when it reset it went straight back to school mode. How did this happen and is there a way to fix this and reset the Chromebook fully?

[cold edge]

anyone wanna play mc with me and friends? if so dm me ur username and i'll whitelist u and send you the ip !

[next gust]

sounds very sus

[cold edge]

?

[next gust]

ok nm

also i don't have time to play mc 😔

[thick ore]

cracked?

[cold edge]

at pvp? no im not

[turbid plaza]

I saw this thing a while ago where you can plug it into a socket and get a ethernet connection to your PC and stuff however I can't seem to find anything like it on Google. Anyone know what this is?

[topaz aurora]

Dial-up?

Uses phone lines which are usually near sockets

[turbid plaza]

I think I found what i was looking for
I googled wireless ethernet adapter but still not sure

Gotta find a cheap one now....

39 😭😭

[graceful basin]

they are called powerline adapters if I understood your requirements right

[thorn lagoon]

i found probably the oldest mention of thumbnails

[thick ore]

what's the importance of taking in a length parameter when taking in an array in C?

[gritty zinc]

without a length a C array is just a pointer, so how can you know where it ends?
(there are some ways if the data is non-arbitrary, e.g. null-terminated strings)

[thick ore]

how about the sizeof length trick?

[gritty zinc]

wdym?

[thick ore]

sizeof arr / sizeof arr[0] i think

[gritty zinc]

oh, you mean, like, void f(int arr[])? hmm, lemme check how these arrays work

[gritty zinc]

well, gcc warns me it won't work:

<source>: In function 'int f(int*)':
<source>:2:19: warning: 'sizeof' on array function parameter 'arr' will return size of 'int*' [-Wsizeof-array-argument]
    2 |     return sizeof(arr)/sizeof(arr[0]);
      |                  ~^~~~

int arr[] means exactly the same as int *arr; it's just a pointer

[craggy crypt]

you are trying to get the length of the array in a sep func?

ah nvm

[sullen pier]

Hi guys.
Consider this example:

What are you doing?

There is an asking word ("what", idk how its called), then verb "are", then object "you", and then all other words. Everything is ok.

Lets change it:

What you are doing?

There order of object and verb is different.
I was taught that it's wrong, but i dont think this sentence has no meaning.
My questions to native speakers: has the meaning of the sentence changed, if so, what does it mean? Are there any new shades of meaning? Do you use similar sentences (sentences with the wrong word order) in colloquial speech, if so, why?

[distant hazel]

I think it means the same thing just with weird (to me) grammar. makes me assume english is their second or third language

you might end a sentence like "do what you are doing" but the topic of that sentence is "do x" and not a question

[small coral]

the second one

What you are doing?
doesn't feel right when used in a question

it's also the same in german

[grave cove]

doing are what you

[thick osprey]

Most native English speakers would probably assume the words are now in the wrong order in the second phrase. Otherwise they are very much the same sentence depending on which word is stressed. "What are you doing?" is very different than "What are you doing?". The first asking about the action, the second asking why you are doing the action.

In my office the non-native speakers very frequently place "you" in what sounds to be the incorrect place. I hear "What you are doing?" frequently enough.

[sharp jasper]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject–auxiliary_inversion has more on this. Note that "are" is an auxiliary ("helping") verb and the sentence would usually be parsed as having a verb phrase, "are doing".

The subject-auxiliary inversion rule in (most standard forms of) English is so strong that we even invent auxiliary verbs in order to invert them, e.g. "What do you know?" instead of (non-standard) *"What know you?" which is how you would ask that question in most Indo-European languages

[sullen pier]

thanks you all!

[rough sapphire]

What are some good android phones but with small display?

[fresh merlin]

Hello, anybody knows a good badminton tutorial for self learning?

[tardy rain]

You want to self learn badminton?

Cant really self learn a sport like that

[fresh merlin]

Oh

I see

[tardy rain]

Best you can do is check your community for any racket sports clubs

And then show up, become member, buy the gear

And find people to play with socially

[fresh merlin]

That's the problem there aren't any clubs nearby here

[sharp jasper]

What is a reasonable amount of time for corporate IT to provision a cloud compute (Azure) server + NAS and configure them behind the company VPN?

the servers are to be in a different country than the IT department and the VPN so there might be some complications there

[lost vortex]

gonna be taking linear algebra 1 for summer 2023 session. What would you guys prefer? A monday and wednesday class but from 1PM-3:50PM or a Mon/Tue/Wed/Thurs class but from 9AM-11:15AM?

[young shoal]

the latter

[distant hazel]

yes the latter

the latter also seems to be just more minutes?

but imo the higher frequency and shorter periods sound nicer

[lost vortex]

yeah, i was thinking that too. only 2 days of torture instead of 4

i also hate sitting for long periods of time. so i will most likely go for the 4 days a week schedule

also not a morning person.. but oh well.

[honest star]

for sure the first one

[young shoal]

wild

[noble atlas]

I prefer the 4 days, 2 hours a day for linear algebra is enough. If more than that, maybe I will eat in the middle of class or I will eat a lot of food before the class, studying algebra needs energy 😅

[tranquil orchid]

Whichever one works with the rest of your timetable better really

I'd probably choose the first option if I could

[onyx jolt]

well

[steady jacinth]

well

[onyx jolt]

im think i forgot the method

🥲

[steady jacinth]

what method?

[onyx jolt]

ok i did it

i think

[steady jacinth]

ok, whats the code?

[onyx jolt]

if i use the like ; its gonna be 1 line

lol

[steady jacinth]

code?

[onyx jolt]

a,b,c = int(input("A :")),int(input("B :")),int(input("What :1.Add / 2.Sub / 3.Mul /4.Div"))
print([a+b,a-b,a*b,a/b][c])

a,b,c = int(input("A :")),int(input("B :")),int(input("What :1.Add / 2.Sub / 3.Mul /4.Div"));print([a+b,a-b,a*b,a/b][c])

ONE LINE IF ;

[steady jacinth]

oh hello viv

[timid latch]

xD

I heard we were doing one line stuff?

[steady jacinth]

yes

trying not to use ;

[onyx jolt]

one line sense tingling?

[timid latch]

Yes

[onyx jolt]

here is my best try without ;

¯_(ツ)_/¯

two lines

😦

[timid latch]

(pg:=__import__("pygame"),__import__("pygame.locals"),ri:=__import__("random").randint,sc:=pg.display.set_mode((600, 600)),cl:=pg.time.Clock(),sp:=pg.Vector2(10,10),sb:=[],di:=pg.Vector2(10,0),nf:=lambda:globals().update(fo=pg.Vector2(ri(0,59)*10,ri(0,59)*10)),nf(),[(sb.append(pg.Vector2(sp)),sb.pop(0),sp.__iadd__(di),(sb.clear(),sp.update(10,10))if(sp in sb or not(0<=sp.x<=600and 0<=sp.y<=600))else None,(sb.insert(0,pg.Vector2(-10,-10)),nf())if sp==fo else None,sc.fill((0,0,0)),pg.draw.rect(sc,(255,0,0),(fo.x,fo.y,10,10)),pg.draw.rect(sc,(255,255,255),(sp.x,sp.y,10,10)),[pg.draw.rect(sc,(255,255,255),(p.x,p.y,10,10))for p in sb],[((1/0)if ev.type==pg.locals.QUIT else di.update({pg.locals.K_w:(0,-10),pg.locals.K_s:(0,10),pg.locals.K_a:(-10,0),pg.locals.K_d:(10,0)}.get(ev.key,di))if ev.type==pg.locals.KEYDOWN else None)for ev in pg.event.get()],pg.display.update(),cl.tick(10),)for _ in iter(int,1)])```
snake, 1 line

[onyx jolt]

one line wiht ;

[steady jacinth]

viv likes 1 liners

[onyx jolt]

ayo what

[timid latch]

A snake game (with pygame) on one line

[steady jacinth]

no semicolons either?

[timid latch]

None!

[onyx jolt]

jesus

[steady jacinth]

wow

[timid latch]

My secret: tuples!

[steady jacinth]

https://tenor.com/view/50first-dates-jocko-the-walrus-walruses-wave-waving-gif-20556175

[onyx jolt]

i cant undrstand tuples

[steady jacinth]

with some help from him

[steady jacinth]

how did you actually know tho?

[onyx jolt]

lurking

[steady jacinth]

oh

[onyx jolt]

idk or myb could have coded a bot

to find key word one line

[timid latch]

I was reading #python-discussion

[onyx jolt]

myb do that

[steady jacinth]

oh

[onyx jolt]

see

[steady jacinth]

you are my favourite vivax

[onyx jolt]

is there another vivax???

👀

[timid latch]

Well I could, but not without breaking discord tos, this servers rules, and risking getting banned xD

[steady jacinth]

and risk getting killed

[onyx jolt]

you cant do that?

[timid latch]

Well I could make a bot and somehow convince admins to invite it, but botting my own account? No you aren't allowed to

[steady jacinth]

do you know how to code in python?

[onyx jolt]

no like just to skim through it and ping you if the term is allowerd or not

[timid latch]

Still self botting

[timid latch]

Yes?

[onyx jolt]

its the python server....

[onyx jolt]

oh that sucks

[steady jacinth]

in that case what does this do? ```py
print((:=(:=builtins.getattribute((:=name.len().class.doc.getitem((:=(:=(:=(:=name.getitem(name.ne(name))).add().len()).mul().add((:=(:=name.getitem(name.ne(name))).add().add().len()))).mul((:=.mul((:=.mul(_).add(name.eq(name)))))).add((:=(:=.mul()).mul((:=.mul().add())))))).add(name.len().class.doc.getitem()).add(name.len().class.doc.getitem(name.ne(name))).add(name.len().class.doc.getitem((:=(:=_____.mul()).mul((______________:=.mul()))))).add(name.len().class.doc.getitem((:=(:=.mul()).mul()))).add(name.len().class.doc.getitem((:=.mul()))).add(name.len().class.doc.getitem((:=.mul()))).add(name.len().class.doc.getitem()).add(name.len().class.doc.getitem()).add(name.len().class.doc.getitem()))))((:=name.len().class.doc.getitem().add(name.len().class.doc.getitem())))).doc.getitem(:=(:=.lshift()).mul((:=(:=.mul()).mul().add((:=.mul((:=.mul(____)))))))))

[onyx jolt]

ahhhh escape the maze

😄

but dang the ___

prints Z

[steady jacinth]

you ran the code didnt you?

[onyx jolt]

ye?

isnt that what you asked for

[steady jacinth]

you were supposed to work it out in your head

[onyx jolt]

hell naw i aint at that stage

learned python 3 weeks ago

[steady jacinth]

lol

i hungry

[onyx jolt]

but why Z?

[steady jacinth]

i have no idea

[onyx jolt]

hi hungry thought you were python ninja

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[steady jacinth]

i hate you

[onyx jolt]

aww thank you

[steady jacinth]

https://tenor.com/view/reverse-card-uno-uno-cards-gif-13032597

[acoustic nest]

maybe

[onyx jolt]

ah shi

[onyx jolt]

AHHH SHI

[timid latch]

😄

[acoustic nest]

😄

[onyx jolt]

I hungry now

[steady jacinth]

ARRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

2 VIVAXES OH NOOOO

[small coral]

oh hey it's my obfuscator output

[acoustic nest]

who doesnt have an alt? xD

[onyx jolt]

oh

explain what it does

pls

[small coral]

print Z

[acoustic nest]

like I have 3 twitch accounts 🙃

[onyx jolt]

NO SHI SHERLOCK I TRIED IT

[steady jacinth]

why is it so obfuscated?

[onyx jolt]

BUT WHY

[steady jacinth]

yeah why

i do not see Z anywhere in there

[small coral]

here's one to import re and assign to a name (assuming python 3.11.0) ```py
(:=(:=builtins.getattribute((:=name.len().class.doc.getitem((:=(:=(:=(:=name.getitem(name.ne(name))).add().len()).mul().add((:=(:=name.getitem(name.ne(name))).add().add(__).len()))).mul((:=.mul((:=.mul().invert().neg())))).add((:=(:=.mul()).mul((:=.mul().add())))))).add(name.len().class.doc.getitem()).add(name.len().class.doc.getitem(name.ne(name))).add(name.len().class.doc.getitem((:=(:=.mul()).mul((:=.mul()))))).add(name.len().class.doc.getitem((:=(:=.mul()).mul()))).add(name.len().class.doc.getitem((:=.mul()))).add(name.len().class.doc.getitem((:=.mul()))).add(name.len().class.doc.getitem()).add(name.len().class.doc.getitem()).add(name.len().class.doc.getitem()))))((:=name.len().class.doc.getitem().add(name.len().class.doc.getitem(_______)))))

[small coral]

you see that's the point

[steady jacinth]

they look exactly the same

[onyx jolt]

....

[steady jacinth]

how the fuck does it work then?

[onyx jolt]

WE NEED cereal to explain what is the point

[onyx jolt]

double this

[acoustic nest]

so people cant read your code

[onyx jolt]

ohh

[steady jacinth]

if you stab the person who made this, you are a cereal killer

[small coral]

it's supposed to convert code into a no constant, underscore only, dunder attributes only, parentheses only, no tuple mess

[onyx jolt]

its what you do when you are paid for the lines of code(not technically but you get the joke)

[steady jacinth]

😕

[onyx jolt]

this wayy high level for me

[small coral]

(inspired by the stuff i manually did on the 3rd of august 2022)

[acoustic nest]

wait, you are paid per line? I have been doing it all wrong!

[onyx jolt]

ye

not me tho

[acoustic nest]

well time to create a tool to spread python code to as many lines as possible (without just adding blank / dummy lines)

[onyx jolt]

peeps said they were paid by lines

[onyx jolt]

i like this vivax more

[small coral]

i could lighten the restrictions by allowing tuples which would make a ton of obfuscating easier

[acoustic nest]

😦

[onyx jolt]

man i dont understand anythin

[onyx jolt]

sorry not sorry the goffy ass pfp was better

[timid latch]

if you insist

[onyx jolt]

yes

but i think we need a red inspired vivax

dont you agree?

how about you add blue as well

🤔

[timid latch]

my profile icon is literally a rainbow, what more colors do you want xD

[onyx jolt]

AH SHI CANT EVEN SAY FULL BLACK

tsk

those dead black eyes

[onyx jolt]

so to minimize code?

or somethin else?

[steady jacinth]

when you are paid per line: py print\ (\ "\ h\ e\ l\ l\ o\ \ w\ o\ r\ l\ d\ "\ .replace\ (\ ' '\ ,''\ )\ )

[timid latch]

Gtg

[steady jacinth]

pinging you on reply

[onyx jolt]

bye

[small coral]

it may or may not do that

actually it shouldn't do that

[steady jacinth]

my legs hurt from doing squats

[onyx jolt]

oh you have those minigame on your profile too

[onyx jolt]

ninja have to do their training no complaining

[steady jacinth]

im complaining

[onyx jolt]

failing as a ninja

[steady jacinth]

🥷

[onyx jolt]

pathetic

[steady jacinth]

https://tenor.com/view/haku-naruto-zabuza-momochi-senbon-gif-25195218

[onyx jolt]

you lack the discipline

[steady jacinth]

you got a problem with that?

[onyx jolt]

https://tenor.com/view/ninjaa-gif-21386720

[steady jacinth]

https://tenor.com/view/dancing-chicken-gif-24101954

[onyx jolt]

ninja dance

[steady jacinth]

this is off topic we are allowed to do that

[onyx jolt]

huh??? why say that when did we talk on topic to begin with

[steady jacinth]

this is an off topic channel

we can talk about whatever we want

as long as it is in the server rules

[onyx jolt]

joke.

https://tenor.com/view/man-ray-facepalm-spongebob-spongebob-facepalm-manray-facepalm-gif-18701906

[steady jacinth]

uploading the newest update to my game now

[steady jacinth]

can you try gem miner?

[onyx jolt]

can you explaom wjay oy os?

[steady jacinth]

can you speak english?

[onyx jolt]

nes

[steady jacinth]

you can find the game in #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval

[vale hull]

Dreams can be weird but not really random. Dreampt last night about building a PC with dual EPYC 7343. One could say it's a dream PC.

I could just be a massive nerd too

In the dream, I was literally in a Discord call with it. Since the H12DSi does not have on-board audio, I had to use USB. I remember saying "If you can hear me, the audio works on this thing".

[thick ore]

that's gotta be the most hilarious dream i've ever heard

especially the "If you can hear me, the audio works on this thing" 😂

[brittle sierra]

Heya, is there a way to convert data fetched from the database to it's actual type defined from the database itself?
I have a database with all it's data type configured, I'm using Codeigniter just to make a simple API, but all the data that's fetched is in the form of string even though I defined some of them as integer in the database.

If I'm just getting a single row then I guess I can typecast it from the Codeigniter itself, but what about multiple row? Looping through each one of them doesn't sound efficient

[vale hull]

It was

[sturdy halo]

sounds fun

[grave cove]

at least it's not stroking-a-p

never mind

[sturdy halo]

oof

the lonely re stroking a po

[eternal depot]

David S Pumpkins.

[jaunty wraith]

@analog shale, re: #python-discussion message
what langs do you mean?

[analog shale]

hm, I guess like rust/dart?

compared to something like java/C++

[jaunty wraith]

hmm, I'd count Go as a recent language and it has the notion of public/private, albeit in a weird way

[analog shale]

access modifiers definitely help with static code analysis though

quite easy to tell some variable is never used for example

which is almost impossible to do in python, because one must assume that a public api might call it

[jaunty wraith]

yeah 🗿

[analog shale]

also we have the __all__ = ["..."] hack instead of just pub def func():

[jaunty wraith]

hey now, it's not a hack, it's a feature™️

[analog shale]

realistically though I wonder why we still have protection levels in C# as we do

besides better static code analysis

there is so much System.Reflection usage in production code bases, on top of testing and mocks

[jaunty wraith]

I'd hope there's not a lot of reflection in production code

they should be reflecting on their choices otherwise

[analog shale]

sometimes you just have to make patches to some nuget library

since their not really as well maintained as the python stuff

[jaunty wraith]

pun overlooked 😔

[analog shale]

it gets worse in C++ though

[jaunty wraith]

btw, fun fact, the way you use to get information out of struct tags (best practice for adding metadata like how a field should be serialized in JSON/YAML, etc.) in Go is by reflection

[analog shale]

poor man's System.Reflection 😔

[grave cove]

yall think its time to start my college apps

its due to tomorrow

ehhhh

i've got a whole day

[low chasm]

bro what the fuck

get started already