EPISODE 2

[silver river]

Does anyone here like the railroad

I wonder if they will be referenced prolly not tho

[torpid cargo]

@coarse grove You are very confident that the BoS chapters we just met don’t have any technology or power of their own.

Especially since all we’ve seen is those that went to the neutral meeting. It’s not like everyone from those chapters went there.

[coarse grove]

Because they wouldn't be scared of the Commonwealth if they did.

[silver river]

Didn’t they say the commonwealth always takes there shit

[coarse grove]

Yes.

That's why I said, they don't have much.

[silver river]

Oh okay

[coarse grove]

Maxson doesn't trust most of the West with Important tech.

[torpid cargo]

That could just mean the East has gotten very strong, not that the West is weak.

[silver river]

I’m sorry im off key today im so tired

[coarse grove]

Given the fact the West starts killing each other, they are weak.

[silver river]

Yea

And the people they are giving power armor too aswell is not good

[coarse grove]

The fact these 4 chapters couldn't handle a neutral meeting and they start blowing each other up says a lot.

And it explains very clearly why Maxson didn't trust them, or why the East itself, wouldnt trust them.

[silver river]

Its consistent and they are supposed to be an elite force I don’t mind goofing off but playing with a getnade infront of the elders of 4 chapters is crazy

[torpid cargo]

Do we know why they started fighting? Or how much of their strength is lost? That’s a lot of assuming dude.

[coarse grove]

It's pretty clear they West isn't strong because in the show they literally stated "Only the Chapters who had the resources" came to the meeting.

It's not assuming a lot, it's acknowledging the facts that's being written towards the auidence.

The West is not strong. Period.

Only 4 Chapters of the west had the resources to come, and instead of valuing those precious resources. The try to kill each other after they meet neutrally???

In what world does that embody strength. lol

The issue is more that the West doesn't have any unification like the East, that's it's biggest downfall, at least imo.

[silver river]

In the world we have now lmao

[coarse grove]

But other Chapters not showing up to the meeting, also could be a sign of them not trusting Quintus.

[silver river]

Yes

[coarse grove]

But regardless, if the West was powerful, they wouldn't start killing each other so casually.

After what, 2 days of being in each other's presence?

[torpid cargo]

They came together to stand up to the East, so they just have some confidence and strength behind them at the start. They wouldn’t have even bothered meeting up if they didn’t think they had a chance.

I feel like you’re looking at those that showed up to the meeting as the only forces they have in all the west.

[coarse grove]

No they didn't. The confidence came from the Fusion cores.

When Quintus showed them the Fusion cores, their tune changed.

[drowsy garden]

!mute 1319813373222846640 Condoning piracy, rule 6

[solar ginkgo]

cinnamondolce muted chichi_26 for 1 day. Reason: Condoning piracy, rule 6

[drowsy garden]

!warn 1319813373222846640 See mute

[solar ginkgo]

chichi_26 has been warned, this is their first warning.

[torpid cargo]

They don’t know they had fusion cores till after they all showed up. What?

[coarse grove]

They were openly saying they'd lose.

[weary sorrel]

Considering he might as well be Elijah reborn, I don’t blame certain chapters for not returning Quintus’s messages.

[coarse grove]

So this is the timeline of events.

Quintus calls a meeting - Meeting takes places, he suggests a coup against the East - West says no they'd lose - Quintus shows them the Fusion cores, they change their mind and agree to it - Then Xander shows up, Commonwealth Liaison - Sometime after this, they start fighting each other.

Area 51 either has a huge stockpile of Fusion cores that Quintus knew of, or Area 51 and create them.

That was the tipping scale, in THEIR minds.

But this doesn't matter even so because they start killing each other after the fact.

And the forces that showed up to the meeting, are the only forces agreeing to the coup, against the East. That's why I'm only looking at those 4 Chapters.

The other Chapters in the West didn't come.

[torpid cargo]

We don’t know the individual strength of each Chapter.

We don’t know if there’s any Chapters who are strong, but just lacked transportation.

We don’t know what kind of weapons or tech they got at Area 51.

We also don’t know how badly they kill each other after they start fighting.

That’s too many unknowns to just blankly say “The western brotherhood is weak”

[weary sorrel]

Commonwealth doesn’t even technically need to do anything and they very well could win this civil war once their opps start throwing down with each other.

[coarse grove]

They literally blew up their own airship. AND AIRSHIP.

When you tip the scales against the 4 Chapters we see currently, against the East - it doesn't hold up. I'm sorry. That's just basic fact at this point. Unless these 4 Chapters pull more powerful tech like project purity, or have industry like the pitt at their backs - like the East has, i don't believe it.

You will have to convince me that these Chapters, who so far only have Knights - no Paladins, somehow can stand toe to toe with the East.

[tired yew]

We do actually know some of what they found at 51

We see several pieces of alien tech being fucked with

And a cryolator actually

[coarse grove]

Cryolator, Zetans, Zeta weapons, but they're fucking with it - but also the Brotherhood in Area 51, was shown deliberately to be stupid.
They are not as intelligent.

instead of breaking down the car - and maybe salavging it's metal, they blew it up and wasted ballistic ammo doing so.

[tired yew]

That and the whole "infinite fusion cores" thing puts them in a strong position

[coarse grove]

We already know Quintus's brotherhood is struggling, they NEEDED Commonwealth reinforcements.

[coarse grove]

This

[tired yew]

This is because quintus' knights are dipshits, they don't let the knights play with the delicate stuff

[torpid cargo]

Fusion + the manufacturing facilities of the Boneyard. Potentially Helios 1 and Archimedes.
All the stuff from Area 51.
Any remaining Tech from Navarro or the Enclave.

[coarse grove]

Yeah, they sent a decent chunk of it to clerics, but I will say this - we know that the East can handle Enclave tech and has experience with it. Evident by the Outcasts in Fallout 3 knowing of it, how to use it, it's exact make and mark, everything. The East isn't dumb. And this knowledge wasn't destroyed, or forced away, it carried on.

[weary sorrel]

Ya telling me the bozos who are chill with Knights playing with grenades like toys are something to be feared? I’m sorry, but outside of stomping on Filly like the Enclave at Vault 13 and getting a bloody nose fighting Moldaver’s crew, these jokers are not scary or intimidating. If it wasn’t for cold fusion, they’d be nothing but a bunch of raiders LARP’ing as Brotherhood.

[coarse grove]

Helios 1 and Archimedes are not even in the equation, now THAT is a stretch.

[tired yew]

Perplexingly they seemingly forgot all of this for the purposes of standardizing t-60 across the entire brotherhood

[torpid cargo]

The Pitt is also a stretch then.

[coarse grove]

The only thing Quintus has definitively, and confirmed. Is Area 51, Alien tech, 1 Cryolator, and Airship, UNSEASONED Knights.

[coarse grove]

The pitt is confirmed.

[tired yew]

The east isn't dumb but we still know practically nothing about any chapter of the brotherhood now that we're in this post-normal brotherhood situation

[torpid cargo]

Where?

[tired yew]

You're really underselling some of these things but yeah

He also does have cold fusion which is obviously a big deal

[coarse grove]

Proctor Quinlin confirmed this in Fallout 4, everything under the Capital Wasteland and Eastern region is under Maxson.

[coarse grove]

I was conflating Area 51 and Cold Fusion, but yeah

[tame current]

I know we talked about it earlier but I'm still kinda bummed about the possible AI usage
Like the show is so good why use itttttt
Not to mention Amazon has the money to not use it

[tired yew]

Those are kind of the two things that can't be conflated with eachother lol

[weary sorrel]

Was that in the glorified puff piece Quinlan wrote about Maxson?

[coarse grove]

Yeah I agree with this, I know i'm underselling them - but knowing the West fights each other tanked my belief in them.

[coarse grove]

It's backed up by Danse, and others, as well as some reports you can read. It's exaggerated when he talks about Maxson's physical 'peak human' potential but not his achievements.

[coarse grove]

There was Ai usage? lol

[tired yew]

Potentially

[coarse grove]

Interesting.

[tired yew]

In one of the post episode scenery things

[tame current]

Just goes to show you that possibly the Western Chapters will just, be stomped by the Commonwealth

[coarse grove]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[tame current]

Yeah just in the credits

Like it is the only time I have seen AI within the show itself but still

[torpid cargo]

They also used AI to write the recap for the first season. Then took it down after realizing the AI got some details wrong.

[coarse grove]

Okay, i thought it would've been more, cause I def didn't catch it.

[coarse grove]

Huh. Hopefully not a habit they continue to do.

[tame current]

Yeah like don't worry it seems to be like the only place that they have used AI inside the whole show

I want to think at least

[tired yew]

Any Ls that the brotherhood takes are fine by me so I'm happy no matter what

[coarse grove]

LMAO I know for you this works out either way.

[tame current]

It does for me too

NCR rulez!!!1!1!1!

[coarse grove]

I'm just saying, the West has inspired zero belief, yet, that they can handle a full-scale civil war. If more Chapters showed up, I would be more confident - and if we saw more ranks besides JUST KNIGHTS I would be more confident.

[weary sorrel]

Fellas are in need of a humbling and fast; this era of spamming airships and Vertibirds is getting old.

[coarse grove]

Atp just let them kill each other.

NCR or enclave could come clean up in the West

I'd rather have the Western be wiped out, and the East offer a NCR / BoS alliance proper , then let the West continue.

At least shit would get done.

[tame current]

Maximus deserves to be in the NCR more than he deserves to be in the BoS

[weary sorrel]

Yeah, if the Mojave chapter showed up or even Lost Hills, that’d be one thing, but four literal who chapters doesn’t inspire confidence.

[coarse grove]

Four Chapters, and half of them being dimwits, literally. Aside from Quintus, the Female elder seemed to actually have sense.
So that's half the fighting force.

[torpid cargo]

Kinda annoyed they decided to make up their own chapters in bumfuck nowhere, instead of continuing or addressing the chapters we already know and care about, like Hidden Valley and Lost Hills.

[coarse grove]

But Quintus controlling the Fusion Cores puts them in a good spot, we'll see how long they last.

[tired yew]

That seems unlikely

[coarse grove]

I know, I was being hopeful, not serious.

[tired yew]

Even under Arthur the eastern brotherhood is a far cry from Lyons

I wonder how quintus would handle house if they interacted

[weary sorrel]

Yeah, seeing a rep from Hidden Valley would be interesting. Could’ve even had them be the ‘House’ figure to the other chapters’s ‘Vault-Tec’, so to speak.

[coarse grove]

Abomination.

Maybe, idk

[torpid cargo]

This difference is probably because of Wastelander recruiting. Not due to any lack of technology or skill.

[coarse grove]

Actually, let me double check on how Maxson feels cause I don't think he was too far off from Lyon's personally. Cause he did view Lyon's as a mentor, and still admired Sarah a lot.

[tired yew]

His doctrine is realistically still more "kill the abominations and maybe trade with the hobos if we're feeling generous"

[weary sorrel]

Maxson at least ran a tight ship out East; guy never gave me the impression he’d have tolerated half the crap these wannabes out West all but condone in their organization.

[coarse grove]

Wiki says otherwise, but I'm trying to find the citation. Said he uses violence as a last resort.

[tired yew]

It's implied that they were actively suppressing religious dogma in the west during/around the time of 4

[tired yew]

Maybe when he's dealing with raiders and settlers lol

He's out for blood against every organization that he deems abominable asap

[coarse grove]

"Additionally, he explicitly ordered that all technology was to be traded for food and medicine, and violent confrontation was to be a last resort which drastically sets him apart from the West Coast Brotherhood, who used violence as a first resort."

Cause this is what it says, but the citation isn't working.

[torpid cargo]

I want to believe the east BoS let the capital wasteland prosper, instead of becoming some hyper military state.

[coarse grove]

If Danse, and other NPCs are to be believed, then it has.

[tired yew]

Yeah I've heard this a few times but apparently oxhorn wasn't able to find citation for it so I'm not really sure what to think

[coarse grove]

But if you don't like the Brotherhood, and assume they're lying then probably not.

[coarse grove]

yeah. hm.

I'll consider it with a grain of salt, i suppose.

[tired yew]

Even then he's still a no nuance type of guy
Mutants? Kill em
Robots? Are they sentient? Kill them
Ghouls? Ew kill them later
Dissenting factions (institute)? Kill them

If the Commonwealth wasn't an absolute shithole he'd be pretty easily reviled

[torpid cargo]

Commonwealth doesn’t seem that bad, compared to DC. If they cleaned that up, up north should be pretty easy.

[tired yew]

Nah man Commonwealth is just as bad as DC maybe worse

[coarse grove]

Which i don't think is far off from Lyons. I think people look at Lyons' brotherhood with rose-tinted glasses. Cause they did the same. If you recall the one ghoul that stood outside the Underworld said as much, as well.

[coarse grove]

Like I said if you believe Proctor Quinlan, then DC is cleaned up.

[tired yew]

The only reason DC might be harder is because of the enclave being present there and even then it's a tossup with the institute

[weary sorrel]

Lyons was well-intentioned, but kinda naive if memory serves.

[tired yew]

Lyons was more directly concerned with charity than previous elders right

[coarse grove]

Cause this is what's said about the Capital Wasteland.
"As of 2287, Elder Maxson's reign in the Capital Wasteland was uncontested, and his authority and influence were spreading across the East Coast. The Prydwen was a key element of the Brotherhood's power projection, rallying people to his cause. In addition, Maxson had been in contact with other chapters over the years."

[coarse grove]

Lyons was concerned about a lot, the mutants, then project purity, then the Enclave.

All in all, it boiled down to him just ensuring he didn't want DC to perceive him as a threat. So he fostered good will, so he can also recruit Wastelanders. Which is something Maxson did, too.

And Elder Lyons was just as aggressive against mutants, as if people remember he wanted DC absolute gutted of them. The npcs mention the suicide missions they got sent on sometimes when going DEEP into DC.

Elder Lyons cared because it benefitted him, it can be argued it was because he cared too, but it was in his best interest. When the BoS got to the Pentagon, they were low on numbers and population.

[tired yew]

Yeah sounds like it's probably rose tinted glasses then

[coarse grove]

Plus dealing with the outcast split, too.

That took a decent chunk.

[torpid cargo]

Also the man who gutted the Pitt the first time passing through.

[weary sorrel]

And considering how few intelligent super mutants were in DC and even the Commonwealth, I can’t exactly blame the Brotherhood out East for being guns blazing in regards to super-mutants.

[coarse grove]

Oh yeah, they left behind people in the Pitt, as well. Ashur wasn't the only one, he just happened to sieze control i believe.

[tired yew]

It's a core ideological tenet of the brotherhood

They have no convictions as deep as their hatred for FEV

[torpid cargo]

At least the capital mutants ran out of FEV. So it was just a battle against time for Lyons, and then Maxson.

[coarse grove]

You have to also keep in mind, the Capital Wasteland Brotherhood, has fought tooth and nail against mutants. and the game goes at Lengths to show you how many BoS members die to mutants.

There are several dead BoS members in front of GNR BEFORE you even get there.

And Lyons dealt with one super mutant uprising from the Vault, with the LW cleanses.

But then they kill Sarah Lyons.

When she's an Elder

and then Maxson deals with the second uprising.

So to them, Mutants are full fledged enemies, always.

and the Super mutants were always attacking the Pentagon.

[tired yew]

It's not even an east coast thing

The brotherhood was founded entirely because of FEV

[coarse grove]

If you remember on the right side - there's always a Squad of super mutants that try to rush and kill the BoS guards.

[torpid cargo]

They always seem to get mowed down by the knights on the roof lol

[weary sorrel]

Kinda precludes making nicey-nice with the NCR, considering there are ghouls and super mutants as citizens there.

[coarse grove]

Yep. Lol but they mutants always keep attacking.

[tired yew]

Even the NCR they just tolerate if they have to

[coarse grove]

If they make nice it'll purely be because of trade and resources. They would never fight along-side each other. But even then, the NCR just tolerates them.

the ghoul rangers are separated from the rest, if you notice.

[tired yew]

The brotherhood in the west refused to budge on its convictions and lost, the brotherhood in Vegas is in tatters and no longer has the luxury

[torpid cargo]

The NCR should have nuked Lost Hills between 2 and NV. Saved the west a lot of trouble.

[tired yew]

Wish they did more with super mutant rangers

[coarse grove]

A shame it was cut content, at least SODAZ gave them a little credit.

[torpid cargo]

Gamma Corps ✊

[coarse grove]

Actually this is interesting since they're giving more context to Roger(Not Arthur) Maxson in Fallout 76, and how he grew the Brotherhood - that he took other military groups under his wing and absorbed them. I'm super curious if that could also explain the shift in the West. Maybe some of these groups could be the developments of the groups like Tagardey's Thunder that Roger Maxson absorbed and maybe put in specific Western positions.

That was something I didn't consider until now.

[tired yew]

Perhaps, although I imagine their main chapter would've still been the most prominent in the region

[coarse grove]

Of course, but I more so meant. It could be furthering of those groups, or what those devolved into rather. Cause I wouldn't see any other explaination for not acknowledging stuff like Lost Hills and whatnot.

or if those chapters we know of, moved locations, I'd have to wonder why

[tired yew]

Given that every single chapter before the show has a number of shared concepts, I think this shift is probably a recent development

They had chapters cross the entire continent and emerge less culturally distinct than some of the summit chapters

I'm skeptical that there's even still an intact codex

[coarse grove]

The Clerics, yes, but the culture probably not?

[tired yew]

Not just the clerics

They have patriots, robot fuckers, and sexists under the same banner

Maybe they just never showed that side of the brotherhood before but that seems like a reach 5 entries in

[coarse grove]

That would fall under culture, at least for me it would.

I wouldn't classify this as, this is something across the board.

[tired yew]

It's a combination of things, the clerics also reflect major cultural shifts

[coarse grove]

Yeah but the combinations aren't consistent - and are more geared towards culture & attitude. At least to me, the only consistency under the same banner is the Cleric position.

[tired yew]

The west is the heartland of the brotherhood and apparently has formulated a largely new structure of pseudo feudal progression up the ranks

[coarse grove]

There aren't sexists in Quintus's chapter.

[tired yew]

True, my point is moreso the brotherhood in the show is just significantly less homogenous than the brotherhood before the show was

[coarse grove]

I agree it USED to be, I believe it's shifted axis. So instead of the West being the heartland, as it used to, Bethesda made it the East, instead.

[cold jetty]

The writers wanted to get the different chapters act different point across.

Especially after how much they got criticized for Quintus brotherhoods portrayal last season.

I personally don’t hate it

[coarse grove]

Yeah, I don't hate it either. It's what I expected, honestly. Coming from Fallout 4, to Quintus, then now seeing these other 3? It makes more sense, the shift.

[tired yew]

I don't hate it but they do need to explain it after the last 4 chapters all behave on a single spectrum

Whereas they're all over the place now

[cold jetty]

Tbh these aren’t that bad.

The patriot guy was definitely joking, only 1 squire fucked a robot so it’s not a normal thing, and I think the women thing was also a joke tbh

[tired yew]

I don't think either of them were joking

The robot incident was a one off but that guy was also 100% down to defend someone's right to do that

[cold jetty]

I can’t help but feel like everyone is taking alot of these bos scenes at face value when they just seem like they’re supposed to be jokes with no deeper implications.

It’s like how everyone is taking the two knights playing with grenade next to four elders seriously. Same with the scribes not caring about the alien or the blown up car

Like you can tell when scenes are meant to show the west coast bos incompetents and others are just the normal jokes you get from the fallout show writers

[coarse grove]

Maybe this could be true, to be fair - I'm just not treating them as a big threat - they're very incompetent. lol
But for me, I'm just more so confining what we see of the West is that they're incompetent, and won't contest with the East, really. Whether they're sexiest, robot fuckers, or anything like that is irrelevant to me.

[weary sorrel]

The Legion were more intimidating in their minute or so of screentime in Episode 2, honestly.

[cold jetty]

You’re right

[coarse grove]

Cause like Roger started in the East, correct - in Appalachia, and moved West? When you find his holotapes, at least. It's very interesting, and very telling that no matter who you help in 76 for the BoS. They STILL end up turning out very closely aligned with Elder Lyon/Maxson's vision without even meeting, hearing, or knowing of these characters.

And I think that's deliberate, very telling. I think it's very clear Bethesda is establishing East / West distinctive differences.

[tired yew]

Some of these things can be taken as jokes (especially relating to the knights) but the elders? In the middle of a plot central meeting? They weren't being played off as bits

[tired yew]

Didn't he start in Mariposa military base

[coarse grove]

Yeah I looked it up after I wrote it, he met up with Taggerdy, though - cause you find his actual Holotapes of his plans for the Brotherhood in Appalachia.

[cold jetty]

Fucking robots isn’t supposed to be serious

[coarse grove]

Cause this specific quote is from his own holotapes in Appalachia.

"Words have power, Lizzy. They build identity. They take on a meaning if you keep using them, even if it didn't exist to begin with. It was the Knights and Scribes after the fall of Rome that protected what was left of Western civilization. So we are the new Knights and our role is similar. But we'll need more than names. We'll need new traditions, our own, well, mythology. Something people can believe to their core."

Cause it's also stated Taggerdy was a close friend, and we know they got mostly wiped out fighting the Scorched.

But the Appalachian Brotherhood is reborn when Rahmani and Shin appear. And regardless of your decision there, it's safe to assume if there's still a Brotherhood chapter in Appalachia as of Fallout 4's timeline - then they got absorbed into Maxson's Brotherhood.

[eager folio]

You gotta respect the original BoS founder
The guy despite being in the military had every good damn reason to form the BoS

[eager folio]

To be fair
The two BoS guy are just having fun with the freeze grenade and probably are risking every second of it
But they clearly are incoponent as they are doing in front of everyone
They can survive but not the others

[coarse grove]

IT WAS PLASMA, NOT FREEZE - that's the only reason it tilted me, personally - I know it's a joke BUT IF IT WENT OFF.

so many people would be having a very bad last day in that Hangar.

[tired yew]

No it's brought up as an insult but that broader conversation is still a genuine reflection of those factions interacting

[coarse grove]

Rewatching the scene in Area 51, it seems like the Scribes and Clerics have different roles now.
Clerics seem to sort through technology. I'm curious now as to what changes have been made to Scribes.

[tired yew]

Sounds more and more like clerics and scribes serve almost identical functions

[coarse grove]

Or Scribes roles have been changed to something else, we might not know fully yet.

Cause Maxson approaches the Scribes, and he tells them to send the Cryolator to the Clerics for sorting.

If scribes still did that job, why wouldn't they be doing it then?

But it could also be something specific to Quintus's chapter, idk yet.

I'll just keep it in mind, for now.

[tired yew]

Clerics could handle archival or something alongside their more esoteric roles

Bureaucratic side of research

[coarse grove]

It would be interesting to see how a Cleric became an Elder then in regards to Quintus.

We'll have to wait and see.

[tired yew]

It would suggest there's been some heavy revision to the codex seeing as quintus is not Elijah

[cold jetty]

Yes. The clerics share the aesthetics and jobs with the scribes

[coarse grove]

It could've been Arthur Maxson also revised or modernized the Codex. Codex hasn't been really touched since... it's creation actually.

[tired yew]

I don't see why Maxson would change that

Especially with how disagreeable the clerics as a concept already are to maxson's philosophy in 4

[coarse grove]

He's actually the only character in lore with the most quotes excerpting the Codex, too, which is interesting.

[cold jetty]

So little information of Dane from these reviews

[coarse grove]

Also - I double checked, there is no High Clerics, or High Cleric in the Commonwealth.

Quintus's words indicate that it was ordered from him from superiors, I.E. Clerics under Maxson.

Cause his speech says,
"Our mission comes from the highest clerics in the Commonwealth. It is believed that a denizen of the Enclave has escaped."

Which just imply people are above him/them, not that there are High Clerics.

The highest position we see of a Cleric atm is Quintus.

[tired yew]

Highest clerics indicates that there are in fact clerics of higher authority than him

[coarse grove]

I would disagree entirely, but it's not something we'll get an answer to any time soon.

[tired yew]

That is literally what that means

The highest ranking clerics in the Commonwealth conveyed these orders, regardless of specific terminology that means that somebody in the Commonwealth is a cleric and had authority over quintus

[coarse grove]

You can check for yourself, and I've found nothing else mentioning 'High Clerics' I genuinely think people got confused.
I think it was word play by Quintus just saying he got orders from his superiors, reading the transcript and the wiki, there's no emphasis on the position, or authority over it. Cause if he was talking about specifically High Clerics, he would say, High Clerics, but all of it is pseudo-religious wordplay with his speech.

[tired yew]

He could've said elders/paladins/anything else

[coarse grove]

I think a Cleric with Maxson's authority just gave him the orders, so he emphasized it with religious intent/wordplay in mind.

[tired yew]

Regardless that doesn't really matter because that still implies there is now some body of people above elders which is still also new

[red zephyr]

I'm honestly a little worried about the BoS' treatment in the show so far. The NCR had a reason to be irrational lol

[tired yew]

The entire difference here is between 'highest' (meaning that which is the most high) and 'high'

At best that suggests that the formal term may not be 'high' cleric

[coarse grove]

The West is at best just a bunch of morons. Lol -
I think so far the 4 Chapters we've seen - 1 of them has a bit of sense, Quintus's just worries me if that specific Chapter aims to be the leader of the Western Brotherhood.

[tired yew]

We need more information on how we got to this point because the western chapters were not in this state at really any earlier point

[red zephyr]

I thought this chapter (we first see in S1) was a splitoff of Maxson's

[coarse grove]

No, it is not.

[tired yew]

Nah

[red zephyr]

So it's the Lost Hills chapter?

[coarse grove]

Neither. It's a new Chapter.

[tired yew]

We don't know the exact history of quintus' chapter but given its location it's most likely related to the original fallout 1 brotherhood

But it's so far removed as to be unrecognizable by now

[cold jetty]

I think the council of elders from lost hills are now a council of clerics in the commonwealth. The commonwealth has authority over the chapters now

[red zephyr]

Yeah, I had a feeling it could have also been a weird merge of lost hills/commonwealth

[tired yew]

How on earth would this ever happen under maxson's oversight

[coarse grove]

That would make the most sense, actually.

[tired yew]

The Eastern brotherhood might've been stronger but that degree of reform is both unnecessary and counterintuitive

[cold jetty]

I don’t see the problem. The lost hill council could’ve relocated to the commonwealth

[clear lynx]

you know bud getting overthrown was inevitable

[coarse grove]

Cause then you have the actual Council of Clerics delegating things - separating them from the Elders, but with similar authority and having the final distinction.

[tired yew]

I kinda assumed the lost hills council was destroyed by the NCR

[coarse grove]

So did I, i didn't even consider Maxson could've brought them East, and reformed them into something else.

[tired yew]

This just overcomplicates the power dynamic and opens it up to competition

[tired yew]

That's because he probably couldn't

The fall of the California brotherhood predates his ascension to elder

[coarse grove]

He probably could with the Prydwen, it's already shown to fly to the Mojave with ease, so if the Lost Hills was around - he could've brought them back under the Commonwealth. Plus this would bolster his position in Boston and give more Chapters a reason to fortify the East if the council resides there.

[tired yew]

The prydwin is a recent development, the brotherhood in California has already been lost by the time it was ready

Besides the NCR is possibly the only faction on the continent which could absolutely destroy the prydwin if they tried that

[coarse grove]

A recent development that's been confirmed that Maxson's used across the Eastern Seaboard and travel super long distances, so it'd be perfectly plausible actually.

[red zephyr]

Railroad/minutemen managed to though?

[coarse grove]

With the player character, not on their own.

[tired yew]

The railroad only does it via player character and the Minutemen also only do it via player character (and artillery)

The NCR comparatively has actual existing military infrastructure

It turns out zeppelins are not actually very durable mobile command centers so generally anybody who can poke a hole in the prydwin represents a disproportionate threat to Maxson

[coarse grove]

Actually until confirmation from lore or the show that the Lost Hills is actually gone, this might be right. I genuinely didn't even think of it, lol

[tired yew]

Lost hills is the oldest and most publicly known brotherhood facility in California

It'd be a miracle if they didn't get destroyed

[coarse grove]

I'd bet on a miracle, given how much Todd and Emil prop them up. lol

[cold jetty]

It is much safer and the high elder is located in the commonwealth. I can see them moving in

[tired yew]

There are caravan runs directly to lost hills in fallout 1, before the NCR is even nascent

[clear lynx]

so hank possibly doesn't care he killed descendants of vault 15?

[coarse grove]

Yeah i would agree. Especially considering Boston would already be fortified as Maxson's second HQ, it would make sense. So if anyone was left, how little there might be - ensuring their survival would be pretty paramount, and bringing them back to carry out new-supportive duties would be a decent change actually.

[coarse grove]

Probably not.

[tired yew]

Don't see why he would

[coarse grove]

I mean he only really cared to an extent cause of his Wife.

But i mean he justified it

[tired yew]

He's already gone completely rogue

31-33 were also created as a pseudo eugenics program so he doesn't really have the vault dweller kinship going on

Okay now I'm confused, what exactly is the council of elders

[clear lynx]

and i guess communication with all the vaults isn't great?

[tired yew]

Under normal circumstances there is no contact between vaults

There might be some monitoring array to some central vault tec facility somewhere but otherwise

[clear lynx]

i see

so there's that likelihood hank would possibly have not known

[tired yew]

He probably knew

More likely he didn't give a shit

[clear lynx]

true

[tired yew]

The plan was never coexistence so them opening prematurely just made them into part of the problem

[clear lynx]

and the vaults weren't the safe protection they were said to be

[clear lynx]

i see

[tired yew]

I can't see any particular indication that they would be important to move given that most chapters are mostly autonomous and there is very little need for a higher council from 3 onwards

Seeing as there were hostilities between the brotherhood and NCR as early as 20 years before Maxson became an elder and lost hills is a very well known location they probably either already relocated or were wiped out before he was even in a leadership role

[clear lynx]

so was reclamation day planned to be at the same time for every vault?

[tired yew]

Not really

I assume most vaults were expected to die out or be unsealed externally when finally deemed appropriate by... whoever is running vault tec's show

[clear lynx]

huh i guess that explains a lot of the immpractical experiments

[tired yew]

Yeah the vaults were not actually fallout shelters in the majority of cases

Moreso controlled environments for sociological research

[clear lynx]

and they expected most of the experiments not to succeed?

[tired yew]

I mean they don't necessarily need to care too much tbh

The data will still be useful more often than not

[coarse grove]

The Council of Elders is referring to a body of Elders - And One High Elder that make up the decisions for the entirety of the Brotherhood.
There has only ever been 1 singular Council of Elders - it's never mentioned to have been destroyed, defeated, or reformed. And as of Fallout 4 - 9 years before the show, we know the Council of Elders is still active given they approved of Maxson's position as Supreme Commander, and High Elder of the Brotherhood entirely.

That being said, it's possible that they've been relocated, or moved. But I would argue the motion to create a rank like the Clerics is something Maxson would've gotten approval for from the Council in the first place. Which suggests they're still alive. It wouldn't be something he can just come up with - the Council acts as a democracy, it's a voting system. Typical with grievances as well as positions within the Brotherhood - say for example, A brotherhood member's name is to be stricken from the Codex, or be branded - a meeting with the Council of Elders - whether in person or via comms would need to take place to confirm it so that ALL records could follow suit.
As well as to my knowledge, while Lost Hill remained near NCR territory, after the Master got killed they ceased hostiles. If you want to go off of the Fallout bible, hate or acknowledge it - it even further states the NCR & the Brotherhood of Lost Hills specifically co-exist with a truce, albeit an uneasy one.

[scenic wolf]

Vaults are less about finishing experiments til they work and more about putting people into the experiments and seeing how they react or get affected

[coarse grove]

Most of the experiments did not succeed, the only Vault we know that had a plan to open up and did it exactly on time was Vault 76, it opened exactly 25 years after the bombs fell and it was listed as a control vault.

[tired yew]

How would the council function if it requires a high elder when Maxson was the first high elder in decades

[coarse grove]

We don't know who the High Elder was before that.
That wasn't really explained - which I agree is annoying. But.

[tired yew]

I would've assumed the council of elders was just an actual council of all the elders rather than a designated body somewhere

[coarse grove]

Nope, it was always Lost Hills.

[tired yew]

Hrm

The absence of them or references to them in the show is pretty odd in that case

[coarse grove]

That's why I said what Magnus said makes more sense ; because I actually would agree with you otherwise. If there were other locations, or who knows we might be completely wrong - idk.

It is odd, yeah, but I hadn't even considered that Maxson moved them to his territory, it also suggests a level of control - too, on Maxson's part.

i would argue IF they turned into a Council of Clerics - then their absence makes sense, now.

It's cause they've been turned into something else entirely, with just as much if not more authority.

With the High Elder/Supreme Commander making the final decisions.

Well final vote, rather.

[tired yew]

Hmm

[coarse grove]

The lingering question i have

is

WHY

lol

[tired yew]

A lot of the references to elders across the franchise seem to just be vaguely referencing 'the elders' and not a specific council

[coarse grove]

i don't hate the Clerics, i just want to know the reason behind their creation, now.

It's from Fallout 1 specifically, but this is also the first big time the Council of Elders has even been brought up since Fallout 1 - I swear Bethesda forgot about them.
But Fallout 4 is when they're mentioned, again, after.

"The Council of Elders at Lost Hills is comprised of five persons: four elders and one high elder to moderate meetings and cast votes to break ties."

And there's only ever one High Elder at a time.

To build off of that -
"Elders make up the Brotherhood of Steel's leadership council. To reach the lofty position of Elder, an individual must progress through the Brotherhood's ranks and must reach at least Paladin to be considered. While a council of Elders are responsible for the entire organization, one or more Elders may also lead their own chapters in various parts of the wasteland."

[crimson root]

Do you think theyre setting up the Minutemen and Maxson's brotherhood to be the new strengths in the US like the NCR and Legion were for the Southwest?

Happy Valley chapter was nearly mincemeat and the others are glorified raiders

[tired yew]

The minutemen are not even remotely equivalent to the brotherhood

That's like saying the Khans were a rival of the NCR

[coarse grove]

the issue with the MM is that they're a militia not a proper organization like the Brotherhood.

Not to say they're bad, but they tried governing before, and setting themselves up in a way - it didn't end well. Lol

Which kind of happens when people are properly vetted or trained in a fashion to function as a cog in a gear system. the MM are effectively farmers that want to farm, but fight for themselves cause others wouldn't. But if the BoS is still present, which we know they are - the Brotherhood is gonna destroy majority of the active threats in Boston the same way they destroyed them all in DC.

Which would render the MM, not so much useless, but they wouldn't need to defend themselves, or others anymore.

[tired yew]

Okay in fallout 4 they're mentioned regarding Maxson having support back west right

[coarse grove]

Yes

The council specifically backs him

But the other chapters would ultimately answer to the council - not all, but some of the elders on the council - would be in some of those Chapters back West or control their own. Which is why I said it makes sense some Elders just didn't even show to Quintus's meeting, they probably back Maxson unconditionally.

[tired yew]

Didn't they just say that the elders in the west supported Maxson

I don't think there's been any specific references to the council since fallout 1 itself which makes anything about their existence pretty apocryphal to determine

[coarse grove]

The Council does, which has Elders in the West - lol Each Elder controls a Chapter. So assuming it's 4 or 6 Elders on the Council, that would equal 4 or 6 Elders back West - support Maxson.

[tired yew]

The elders on the council in 1 do not oversee chapters though

[coarse grove]

I'm not going off of only just Fallout 1, if you read what I said earlier.

"Elders make up the Brotherhood of Steel's leadership council. To reach the lofty position of Elder, an individual must progress through the Brotherhood's ranks and must reach at least Paladin to be considered. While a council of Elders are responsible for the entire organization, one or more Elders may also lead their own chapters in various parts of the wasteland."

[tired yew]

They all collectively oversee the brotherhood in (and beyond?) their HQ

[tired yew]

Where is this except from

[coarse grove]

The Fallout rulebook iirc.

[tired yew]

For the roleplaying game?

[coarse grove]

Between Fallout 1, 4, and the Rulebook it's the only information we have to go off of.

[coarse grove]

pretty sure, yeah

[tired yew]

Hrm

[coarse grove]

Yeah from the rpg game, page 382.

the rulebook page 382

And that came out in 2021

so it's recent

[tired yew]

This seems like it would roughly qualify as secondhand information

We haven't seen or heard really anything necessarily referencing them since 1 which just complicates the issue

[coarse grove]

I'm kinda exhausted on the topic man, ngl. If you wanna talk about anything else regarding the show we can. lol

[tired yew]

There's probably just not enough information for now ig

[coarse grove]

that's what I was saying before, we don't have a lot to go off of - so im using only that stuff, for now, if things change, i'll def change my opinion on it.

i blame bethesda for ignoring it for so long, lol

[tired yew]

It's kinda been ignored for so long that it's hard to even say if they didn't silently decanonize it or something

Could just be individual writers neglecting it over the course of other games because it just wasn't relevant too ig

[coarse grove]

i don't think it was relevant, well i would argue it would've been relevant in FNV tbh given the location of the Mojave but i might be wrong on that

like a little kernel or something

I also wonder, for the Legion

if they're gonna explain what they mean by 'two factions' of the Caesar's legion, i know the two Brothers are the leaders, but, did it fracture, did they retreat, who took over after FNV, etc etc.

[late wedge]

damn, discussed so hard you wore yourself out

[coarse grove]

it is 1am, and i've also been working on and off between discussing lol

also finding more lore on the councils was annoying af because it's so fucking scarce

[late wedge]

If there's one thing that I think has been a general throughline for most of the show so far, and I don't really expect to change...they're not really trying to explain things enough in a way that's actually satisfactory. I think leaving space for speculation is much of what they're doing, also, trying to avoid making super definitive statements on many general things.

I'd be curious as well, what they end up reinforcing for that specific question, but I don't really expect clear answers

[late wedge]

oh super fair, I just hadn't been on for a while and I show back up and saw that message, it was amusing. Discussions here quickly get exausting haha

[coarse grove]

This i can 100% agree with. I had a feeling it was gonna be the case, so i went in with zero expectations of them picking certain endings, or confirming what happened or didn't happen in fnv

[coarse grove]

They can be yeah. lmao

[eager folio]

Plasma?
Oh everyone dies

[eager folio]

Well....
Everything drained already in terms of discussion and this episode didnt really... gave us answer to question ep 1 and made a few question
Few is the keywords because ep 1 was just full of a 100 questions

[late wedge]

I like how everyone is rediscovering episodic TV with the show lol

Harkening back to like, pre-streaming formats, where part of the goal each week WAS to give people lots of questions to keep them interested and talking until next week

[eager folio]

Honestly im glad they did that

I did like the fact that they just uploaded all episodes but it does techinally drain the discussion RATHER very fast

[late wedge]

I think it was absolutely the right case for the show.

It was nice, during S1, just watching it all at once. But this is just a better format to keep interest longer and allow the audience to grow over time

[eager folio]

Yes

[coarse grove]

Yeah , that's why I was like. UM, ARE WE SERIOUS? at least with Cryo grenades, you can get thawed off or something - maybe freeze a limb off

but PLASMA?

[late wedge]

The offset though - with E1 being very Lucy/Ghoul and House focused, and then E2 being very Maximus focused again...it's definitely made it so that nearly all questions raised from E1 weren't answered in E2 at all. Clever lol

[coarse grove]

I think we'll get NCR, Legion, and Pre-war questions answered in the next two episodes.

[eager folio]

Yeah
This episode is just BoS in a nutshell

[coarse grove]

I think episode 3 will be Legion focused for sure. With episode 4 being Coop, NCR, pre-war flashback, plus anchorage.

[eager folio]

There are obviously norm plot advancing, lucy being trapped in the legion but this is literally mainly a BoS story

And i dont mind that cause i am equally interested in all of them

But now there 5 plots happening
The BoS
The vault
The legion with lucy
The pre-war
And whatever the ghoul is doing

[coarse grove]

NCR, too

or at least, a definitive NCR explaination of what happened

[eager folio]

Nah
Instead of answering question
They giving us more questions

[coarse grove]

I'm still worried the Anchorage flashback will be too dark.

😩

[eager folio]

Except this episode is less question focus

The only really major question is WHERE IS MORE DOGMEAT

[past kernel]

Bro the NCR is stupid. After watching episode 2 beginning that’s all NCR fault.

[coarse grove]

Dogmeat didn't go with Lucy? right?

I think it stayed with the Ghoul.

[coarse grove]

How so???

[eager folio]

Oh phew
We cant let of our protaganists die this early

[late wedge]

I think this is the part I'm most happy about with the show as a whole, but especially S2 so far. I'm actually very interested in every different plot. Usually I'll be mostly into one or two and barely into the others, but they've really made all them interesting for me so far

[eager folio]

That the insane part
I am interested in all of them
And i have mention it but it also such a genius way of showing this is how the games also work

[past kernel]

Considering the NCR has a functional like security team, best of the best, literal checkpoints, Ranger outposts, and better quality of life with more security presence. You’d assume there would be a town checkpoint to see that giant ticking thing coming into town or Identification checker.

Like there’s gotta be foul play

[errant bobcat]

Hanks plot is the least interesting for me, but thats compared to all the others, i am still very much looking forward to what else that awful man is up to

[eager folio]

Tbf
Before this episode
I was less interested in seeing more maximus due to well to be honest, the weakest of the protaganists

[coarse grove]

No, Shady Sands was turned into Civilian farmland - we can see that much from the overhead shot.
Best of the best is a stretch, they had Soldiers there - but nothing to suggest they had elite people. We only saw one ranger.

Thing to consider is that the NCR - as of FNV, even if you help the NCR as the courier. The NCR is struggling because of Kimball. His hyper-expansionism has fucked the NCR out of resources, manpower, military might, and a bunch of other things.

It's very clear, even when you help Cass, things take too long to get fixed or benefit from you doing good.

[eager folio]

Its actually insane how little shady sands is like

[coarse grove]

Until I know who Hank is talking to, my interest is low. lol

[eager folio]

Shady sands doesnt even look like the NCR capital anymore
It look awful

[coarse grove]

It's very little. It doesn't look like a fortified point.

[late wedge]

HUGE agree on this. Even though all of S1 Maximus was by far who I was least interested in. But now I'm really liking what they're doing with him so far this seasn

[past kernel]

Like in the NCR territories there are still gangs, slavers, mafias, drug dealers and even rebel groups that used to be tribes or raiders. You’d assume they would always be on edge. An have at least a secure force just in case of infiltration?

[errant bobcat]

Norm just shot up to the near top of my interest list this season

[eager folio]

Yeah
He was the weakest straight up
He wasnt bad character by any means but he had to compete 4 other main characters
There is dogmeat who is perfect, no need for growth just perfection
There the ghoul who is just most interesting character ever, right next to house in term of how interesting one can be
The lucy who straight up scream whatever new player does when they first play fallout and while at a lot of moment is ridclious and respectively eye rolling, it does set up for the moment when she actually develops (she still developed overtime but clearly has a lot to go)
And there norm who is just making vault storyline so interesting overwall

[coarse grove]

The NCR clears every gang out but the fiends, near Vegas. And the NCR struggles with supply lines. What I'm saying is - when you look at the bigger picture. This base has a shortage, this base can't get men, this base is struggling with communications. EVEN when you help fix these things, they still happen. And it's clear the NPC often say, "Thanks this should help us, for now."

The point is to stress that the NCR Leadership, Kimball specifically - his policies are fucking them. Which will lead to, less secure checkpoints OR no checkpoints, it will lead to things like less man power at Shady Sands cause the NCR is stretched too much or expanded too far.

[errant bobcat]

Everyone's doing their own storyline and hes just out here playing Rimworld

[coarse grove]

It's like a domino effect.

When you install polices that fuck your own citizens, and soldiers over - it trickles down, and enables stuff like SS to happen.

Because you no longer have the ability to properly handle things as you should.

[eager folio]

I feel like 99% of the NCR problem in the mojave was just a bad supply line

Like if they had a good supply line
So many of them problem would have been absent

[tired yew]

I assumed the bit of shady sands we saw was not in fact the entirety of it and rather just one farming district on the fringes of it

[coarse grove]

It is bad supply line, a shortage of men, AND the fact they're too slow to fix it.

When you do Cass's questline, you're told it's YEARSSSSSS before anything is done.

[eager folio]

Even with literal evidence

[coarse grove]

And that point, i'll go fucking do it my DAMNED self.

Like what.

[coarse grove]

CLEAR AND CUT, no bullshit, Alice had evidence black & white, in her ledger, and the contract between her and Van Graff. And you're telling me, it's gonna takes YEARS to get there, and then even MORE for the Senate to decide? Nah.

[eager folio]

WELL ACTUALLY

Shrugs

I legit cant even argue against that point

[tired yew]

By the way do we know anything about Max's dad apparently discovering the solution to the NCR running out of water right before he decided to play with a bomb

[coarse grove]

No.

[tired yew]

Or did that kinda just slip through

[eager folio]

Nope

[coarse grove]

Idk if we have any information on Max's dad at all.

[eager folio]

He just smart, found clean water under shady sands, then died

Honestly
10/10

[coarse grove]

Lol it's so sad, but so true.

[tired yew]

No longer clean water :(

[late wedge]

Woulda been a damn fine dad, no doubt 🙁

[past kernel]

My favorite kimball policy is “Arm raiders and pay them to hunt down slavers”

An it backfired. That’s why groups like the jackals and scorpions seemed better armed than the NCR

[eager folio]

Arm raiders...
That has to be the stupdiest thing ive ever heard

[tired yew]

Kimball is one stupid bastard alright

[past kernel]

It’s a funny thing that is mentioned in New Vegas. Cause honestly that’s what people have done for a long time in real life so it makes sense.

[coarse grove]

He's a fucking moron and why the NCR suffers the most. I'm glad he got blown up in SS, fuck'em.

[tired yew]

Maybe he was assassinated on the dam

[coarse grove]

GOOD.

[tired yew]

That would explain how the NCR may have maintained some uniformed presence in Vegas after shady sands

[coarse grove]

How you fuck up one of the better societies in a post-apocalyptic 101 - be Kimball, expand, fuck the farmers, arm the raiders, don't elaborate.

[tired yew]

Also promote oliver

[coarse grove]

I'd take Moore

over any of those idiots

idc

[errant bobcat]

And yet some diehard NCR fans wanna act like they're some infallible behemoth just cause "ooooh cool rangers"

[eager folio]

Nah
He died by the courier

The courier wasnt even working for the legion
He literally heard taxes and shot him

Even house agrees with him

[coarse grove]

And like hold on - another thing, Ulysses, who knows how the Frumentarii works btw. Specifically says that the Frumentarii die inside enemy lines and lose a lot of the information they gather. THE FACT There's still a Frumentarii agent still alive in Camp McCarran baffles me.

[errant bobcat]

I like the NCR but fuck me it gets glazed to high heaven all the time

[eager folio]

The fact there is one WAY before NCR fought the legion is insane

[coarse grove]

The NCR is a good option, they just suffer because of idiots, like no genuinely - they actually are trying to have some level of normalcy but my GOD are their leaders so stupid.

[empty crane]

NCR gets attacked by raiders once and decides to genocide all tribals in arizona

[coarse grove]

THEY TAKE POTSHOTS AT TRIBAL KIDS

IN WHAT WORLD

[eager folio]

Hey

I dont mind their tactics

If you think about it

Those kids will grew up as raiders
Better take them now instead of having future problems

[coarse grove]

Lmao

[coarse grove]

But yeah, this, and he's right under their nose too -
And don't get me started on the integration quest. While I love it from the NCR's perspective, or House's, but from the Legion? Oh my god does it show how unhingedly ignorant the NCR can be at time.

[eager folio]

I did once but i forgot what happen exactly
I know you give weapon, and then he escape

[coarse grove]

what did she say when he said you were sent by the Legion? "Even if he is, idc, i get to watch you die."

[coarse grove]

You can help him escape, or kill him.

I remember sitting there, so dumbfounded, "You literally let me kill a Centurion. . . And he outted my identity, not only did you say you didn't give a fuck, but you just lost the NCR leverage, because you wanted to be PETTY?"

[empty crane]

pretty fucked up to kill non raider tribes though

[eager folio]

It is what it is
Better to not have future problems

[empty crane]

it did probably weaken the legion a bit though

indirectly

[coarse grove]

I half expected you to say
an only good tribal is a dead one. LOL

[eager folio]

The only good tribal IS A DEAD TRIBAL

[empty crane]

[snearing imperialist]

[eager folio]

[ Enclave supiourity ]

[past kernel]

That’s when they wanted to have a more authority approach. That imperialist mindset to make sure all raiders stay clear and that if you mess with one of the NCR, you get wiped.

However due to their nature of democracy and wanting to show they are capable of holding a nation with values of the past. It hindered them. So you had groups like Caesar’s legion where they are the ultimate other. They didn’t need votes, they didn’t need people’s favor, they didn’t need a value of america, they would gain power with strength and fear.

[coarse grove]

I really do hope, the Enclave has so much more of a presence in Season 2 and Season 3.

[eager folio]

And they do what exactly?
Genocide the BoS?

Actually so long its not east coast BoS, i wouldnt mind seeing that

[empty crane]

kimball is such a dick

[coarse grove]

I would genuinely not mind if the Enclave was playing 6D chess and letting everyone beef with each other, and they come in and get what they want. 🙂

[eager folio]

The fusion power they needed to idk nuke the earth all over again cause... yeah

[empty crane]

the average waster could learn a thing or two about tribal people's ability to live off the land

[coarse grove]

But that revelation that we found earlier about the mind control device really did make me think.

[eager folio]

So you are approving of raider behaviour?

[coarse grove]

They need a W, for once, let them win in the show - we can stop their plans in Fallout 5.

[empty crane]

not all tribals are raiders

[eager folio]

Ah yes?
Them winning is genociding the entire planet and giving a full reset so bethesada can make new lore in their image instead of having it all messed up

[eager folio]

They all eventually become one

[coarse grove]

Nah, we'll stop them right before they complete their goals, like always.

[empty crane]

west coast is already so fucked it wouldn't even matter if enclave killed everyone

[coarse grove]

🙂

[eager folio]

In the enclave eyes
Not fucked enough

Remember
The enclave is basically the nazis

If it doesnt fit exactly as they think it should be
Flamethrower activated

[empty crane]

true

but they look cooler than the BOS

[eager folio]

Which BoS?

[empty crane]

all of the current west coast chapters

[coarse grove]

Idk i like East Coast's aesthetic tbh. I know it's T60s but the art of Nate the rake being backed up by the BoS in the vertibird goes kinda hard.

[empty crane]

nate would be an enclave man

[eager folio]

Well what can we say
If there one thing bethesada is good at that everyone agrees
The power armor is their best creation

[empty crane]

t60 isn't bad but it's so overdone at this point

[eager folio]

https://tenor.com/view/gun-gif-22839895

[coarse grove]

I'm just glad power armor feels like power armor should.

[eager folio]

No one disrespect the T-60

[empty crane]

we need to return to the t51

[coarse grove]

says you, it's only been in two games, and barely got to shine in fallout 76 lmao the promo for 76 was t51 !

[eager folio]

Oh yeah that also

[empty crane]

it's the only PA in the show

[eager folio]

The T-60 is only good at fallout 4 and for the wrong reason because ingame and lore dont work together

[eager folio]

Cause the only one using it is excluseively the BoS?

[coarse grove]

Anchorage flashback will have all 3 im sure, or at least t45

We know Coop wears it

[empty crane]

west coast BoS should be wearing t51 like they were in 1-NV

[eager folio]

T-60 was made after battle of anchorage

[eager folio]

They dont because that PA is EXPENSIVE to maintain

[empty crane]

I thought it was expensive to produce rather than being hard to maintain

[eager folio]

People keep forgetting this
Over time, they cant keep maintaining the T-51
Its just too expensive and difficult to maintain

[eager folio]

Its both

[empty crane]

cause in 4 you literally just need steel to repair it lol

[eager folio]

And in lore, The T-60 is weaker than T-51
However, the T-51 is weaker than the T-60 in fallout 4

And idk what it is in 76

[empty crane]

t51 is better in 76

[eager folio]

In fact
@coarse grove
Is it hard to maintain 76 T-51

[coarse grove]

Yes, it's why I don't use it.

People use T51 skins

but never the actual T51

[eager folio]

I am actually suprised to hear that

I would have thought otherwise

[coarse grove]

Hell no.

Fuck T51(mechanically).

I like it's design, but it's annoying af to get the plans, or repair it.

[late wedge]

I'm a sucker for Excavator because....I hoard and nothing else matters lol

[coarse grove]

surprisingly, the strongest is the fucking Hellcat iirc.

Wait no

that was PRE-T65

T65 is the strongest

Secret Service - so Enclave, again.

[eager folio]

But that excluseively 76

In general, The T-51 is the strongest due to more of it compare to those

[coarse grove]

I think it goes T65 - Hellcat - Union.

[empty crane]

t65 also looks pretty cool

[coarse grove]

I actually don't know. It would depend on if lore around those new PAs is to be canon.

Because keep in mind, it takes place before everything - predates FO1.

So I actually dunno.

[coarse grove]

It's suuuuper strong.

Takes a little bit to get though.

[coarse grove]

Like I genuinely don't know, not that I won't agree with you. xD

[past kernel]

Any guesses how episode 3 will go out?

[eager folio]

Lucy will begin to kill people

She actively doesnt want to but she will have to do with it the legion

[past kernel]

She becomes the first female legionnaire

[eager folio]

The legion will not spare her at all

[coarse grove]

I pray Lucy fights Legionnaires in the Arena and kills them.

[empty crane]

lucy becomes a slave

[eager folio]

We know that already

[empty crane]

ghoul goes and does his own thing

lucy will have to deal with this problem herself for once

[past kernel]

I hope Lucy becomes a legionary and gets ordered to be the empress, an starts making the legion treat people better lol

[eager folio]

Also i have the funniest joke in my head for this

[errant bobcat]

Knowing her it's gonna be mostly accidental kills, like, she dodges once and trips the guy, he falls and impales his head on a random spike

[empty crane]

I think the legion may be divided among legion-purists and people who want the legion to change

[eager folio]

Normal TV watchers who hasnt played the games:

Oh god, lucy had to kill someone. Oh that bad but she had to what neccessary. Ah i hope she doesnt start actively kill everything and only resort it as a final measure.

Fallout fans watching the show:

FUCK YEAH, SHE KILLING THINGS YEAH! LETS GO COMMIT A GENOCIDE ON THOSE FUCKING LEGION! COME ON LUCY YOU CAN DO IT !

[empty crane]

the one group follows caeser's teachings to the absolute, while the other group has reverted to their tribal origins and don't really care about caeser anymore

[past kernel]

I’m guessing McColie Coulkin is Brutus?

Son of Caesar

[coarse grove]

It is not, unfortunately.

[coarse grove]

It's ran by two leaders.

[empty crane]

then what do the leaks say?

[past kernel]

Ave Empress Lucy

[coarse grove]

There's a new Caesar and a new Legate, both are brothers. It's more of Romulus & Remus type of story.

[past kernel]

That’d crack me up if she accidentally kills the new Caesar and then gets to be the leader of the legion

[coarse grove]

Both lead half the Legion, and they both are trying to vy and claim power to control the legion as a whole.

[past kernel]

Oh like he fall of the Roman Empire. The western Roman Empire and eastern.

[eager folio]

Hmm
Legion civil war
BoS civil war
Where is the NCR civil war?

[coarse grove]

Macaulay Culkin is the Legate.
Kaleti Williams is Caesar.

[coarse grove]

Maybe?

[past kernel]

That nuke was the civil war

[empty crane]

still funny how everyone says "the legion WILL collapse after caeser" and it outlived the ncr

[coarse grove]

No it fractured.

[eager folio]

The NCR still exists

Its somehow very weaknen beyond imagine

[empty crane]

it's barely a thing anymore

[coarse grove]

The brothers are the one that rounded them up, and brought them to power.

[empty crane]

NCR economy has completely collapsed

everyone is back to caps

[eager folio]

As all things should be

[empty crane]

I hope we see vulpes

[eager folio]

That would mean the legion ending is canon!

Idk why i even thought of that

[empty crane]

I think vulpes can live in a non legion ending

if lanius lives he's probably getting the burned man treatment though

[coarse grove]

Uhhh

hang on

[eager folio]

So he religious and says the best thing known to man?

[empty crane]

he'd probably just become more hateful ngl

[empty crane]

caeser with a gun is so weird

[eager folio]

He remind me of that one youtuber

[coarse grove]

They've accepted guns into their culture fully. lol

[past kernel]

Cool idea;
Lanius is betrayed by his own centurions walks the Grand Canyon and runs into Joshua Graham. They have a battle that lasts for days. A game of cat and mouse leading to Joshua being killed, but convincing Lanius he needs to change. Leading to Lanius proceed walking and becoming a preacher of god and lives in a shack ashamed of his life being a beast.

[empty crane]

I wanna see legion with laser guns

would be funny

[coarse grove]

Joshua would murder him.

Joshua was always said to be more of a warrior than Caesar or Lanius.

[past kernel]

Is that Lenny Kravits?

[empty crane]

I think a lanius who has had spirit broken by betrayal may not fight joshua

[eager folio]

Also that man literally has the freaking 45 calibar pistol
God bullet as they say

[past kernel]

But, what if Joshua was just done fighting. He gave his all and gave him the chance to win, to only shame Lanius.

[coarse grove]

Joshua is not the type, you threaten his home - he'll kill you.

[past kernel]

I’m curious how they’ll show tribes

[empty crane]

same

I'm surprised the show is going this direction at all

[empty crane]

some of the legion soldiers have tribal paint

[coarse grove]

They always say Joshua was the brawn, and Lanius was the battle tactician.

which is funny cause Lanius gets scared at math, and logistics.

[eager folio]

Everyone is scared at that

[coarse grove]

idk if obsidian meant to imply that, but it's just funny when you consider it

[eager folio]

Everyone is scared of math and logistics

[coarse grove]

i mean fair. lol

[ashen swan]

POOR MAX

https://tenor.com/view/sob-tears-crying-tear-sad-gif-7633036

[eager folio]

What happened?

[ashen swan]

the intro showcasing how Shady Sands was bombed

at first it was all "lmao they did the "patrolling the Mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter" thing" into just utter despair

[eager folio]

Yes
Now when i play new vegas, that line is literally the last thing that ruined shady sands

and also how to make new vegas fan cry

[ashen swan]

"when's mom coming back"
damn S2 i'm sorry for doubting you with EP1 my emotions just got milky rocked

[eager folio]

Doubting?
What was bad about ep1?

[ashen swan]

hard to explain

really i think it's mainly subjective - it just felt oddly rushed, in a sense.

it was good, but definitely below what i was expecting.

also, the Brotherhood have found Area 51

https://tenor.com/view/alien-guy-thats-crazy-woozy-crazy-scientist-gif-18248326040104658804

[eager folio]

Now you see

[ashen swan]

also taking back what i said about Norm waiting too long to unfreeze everyone…

these specially chosen execs aren't the brightest bulbs of the bunch… probably the dimmest, actually.

honestly was lowkey expecting Barb to be among them, but it wouldn't have made sense seeing as how she likely took Janey with her to whatever management vault they ended up in.

[coarse grove]

They're juniors

[lapis thunder]

Maximus for sure has nerd Rage perk

Bro was below 20% health gained some resistance n strength

N he used a Khan trick

Well except dirt it was his jacket but you know

[coarse grove]

I misspoke, they're junior corporate employees, not necessarily junior executives

[ashen swan]

my only other two guesses for her and Janey's whereabouts are:

• *they're in that underground Vault-Tec institute building. why would they be there? idk i'm just throwing shit at the walls in hopes it'll stick. i can think of a theory of it being a main containment centre, or it having been meant to house high ranking vault-tec employees after the bombs and not just before to help monitor experiments or something idk.

• Mr. Gen Alpha-grew up as an iPad kid-House would have a vault or knows of certain management vaults that could contain them. if he has a vault of his own, i'd imagine it'd be used for his "sending people to mars" thing he had going on in New Vegas, but idk if the show is gonna stick with that for him or not.

[ashen swan]

bud's dumbass buds 😭

[coarse grove]

YUP.

[lapis thunder]

Enclave wanted to go to the moon in San fran

So I wouldn't be surprised

Especially with the bos finding area 51

N the UFO, I'm sure Mr house knew

[coarse grove]

Mr House is smarter than most give him credit for, agree or disagree, the dude is often a font of information.

[lapis thunder]

Yeah

He has platinum chip engraved with instructions

To wake machines, there's plenty of things he could've had made prewar

[eager folio]

House is smart and make very good plans and is respectfully efficient

The issue that house often suffers from shown in the game is basically lack of information

He can get good enough information of the various faction but not down to individual person

[ashen swan]

everyone's smart until they get a nine iron repeatedly to the brain

https://tenor.com/view/defense-defending-fight-golf-knife-gif-12209042813888296321

[eager folio]

He didnt expect benny to betray him and benny to hack a securitron and him to dig toward where he is
He doesnt know what the omertas are planning
He doesnt know the white gloves are eating people

[lapis thunder]

You think the other packages weren't duds like Ulysses implies n were also other items inscribed in a way

Or that's what they'll retcon

To have house have not a chip but a full house of goodies

[mellow isle]

just binge watched till 2x2 from the first season. are vault-tec the bad guys?

[lapis thunder]

Vault tec has always been the bad guys

Considering the freakish experiments they conducted

[ashen swan]

YEAAAAAA

https://tenor.com/view/alien-guy-thats-crazy-woozy-crazy-scientist-gif-8609893263374809391

[lapis thunder]

Zetan moment

[cobalt pine]

Exactly house does not directly spy on the casinos hence why things get so bad

[ashen swan]

reminds me of

[lapis thunder]

Average libertarian moment, things goin under the radar /j

[cobalt pine]

Made worse by the fact he encourages the omertas to be ruthless or at least chose them because of it

[lapis thunder]

Yeah

[cobalt pine]

Whats funny is the omerta plan seems doomed to failure since houses actual forces are robots, plus the omertas business would dry up once the legion arrives

[lapis thunder]

I don't think he had the knowledge of the enclave remnants either. He's a huge facet of prewar high security maybe even top (the tops) secret knowledge more than he is modern wasteland

[cobalt pine]

I never got why the omerta’s of all people sided with the legion

[lapis thunder]

They were tribals

Or more so raiders

Caesar's Legion allows them to return to root or be crucified

[cobalt pine]

Except they had embraced their new business which the legion would never have allowed

Also unlike the khans the omertas are not backed into a corner

[lapis thunder]

I mean kinda. If legion surrounds the metal grave that is new Vegas they have no route out

Not even the sewers iirc

[cobalt pine]

The three tribes and securitrons were in a better position than most to hold off the legion safely

Plus the legion would have to fight off freeside and likely the fiends (who are to unpredictable to leave alive)

The omertas would likely suffer worse than the khans

[lapis thunder]

Oh hm

[cobalt pine]

Hm?

[lapis thunder]

No just thinking

Using my irradiated tribal brain

[cobalt pine]

In fact of all the factions likely to do well in the legion are the boomers, both due to expertise and the fact that the legion is going to have to treaty with them

[lapis thunder]

You think the enclave remnants would fare well against the ground troops of legion

Considering the vertibjird

[cobalt pine]

The remenants are 5 older individuals who don’t agree with each other

They likely get out of dodge quickly

[lapis thunder]

So true

[cobalt pine]

I am still of the opinion the legion would struggle against the NCR if they dug in properly

The legions close range tactics are kinda insane given everything

[lapis thunder]

The bos struggled against the NCR I wouldn't doubt it

[lapis thunder]

And espionage

[cobalt pine]

The espionage is the only thing giving them ground in new vegas

[lapis thunder]

Deacon would thrive in the legion as a spy if his ideology swung that way

N morals

[cobalt pine]

Even gage would see through the legion

In fact vulpes is the most dangerous man in the legion in my opinion not the legates

[ashen swan]

so, Lucy's about to be enslaved by the Legion from what i can tell.

Cooper is taking a venom nap.

Max is being brainwashed and used to start a civil war - the Eastern Brotherhood leaders are all dumbasses + very unsurprisingly going completely against what their codex dictates horde all this technology for when humanity is finally ready to use it properly/when humanity is ready to properly rebuild? yeah, that'd work if this were a Disney film

[cobalt pine]

Welcome to the brotherhood outside the east coast

[ashen swan]

they're fucking nuts 😭

[lapis thunder]

I wonder if we're going to be introduced to the reavers from the older isometric fallout games

[ashen swan]

sorry to Arthur Maxson. my hate towards you wasn't completely warranted. still want u dead tho fuck you.

[cobalt pine]

I wonder if the brotherhood kept any gen 1 synths

[lapis thunder]

Likely

Or atleast reversed engineered them

[cobalt pine]

Whilst they would have wiped out the more human models i think they may keep the older robotic forms

[lapis thunder]

They're just like miniature Liberty primes

I think they would keep gen 1s

[cobalt pine]

Or worse maxons become a hypocrite and has synths in the brotherhood already infiltrating

[ashen swan]

Norm is playing babysitter. rip 😭🙏

[lapis thunder]

Norm is playing fallout shelter

[cobalt pine]

Now i say it maybe there is a synth in the brotherhood spying

[lapis thunder]

Do you think that'll be the big twist of danno

Max's wavering bestest bud from the bos

Or maybe maximus is a synth

[errant bobcat]

oh boy do we really need another Danse

anywho i doubt Max is a synth since we actually got shown his childhood

[lapis thunder]

Maximus, memories of the explosion right before the bomb. And found in a refrigerator

[lapis thunder]

Fabricated memories

[errant bobcat]

synths can't grow up or age like humans do

[lapis thunder]

Not yet

[errant bobcat]

well we still have Quintus as another witness

he was the one who found Max as a kid

[lapis thunder]

Hm yeah

I think the institute would know of cold fusion being made if they weren't wiped

Bird spies n what not

[errant bobcat]

i don't doubt that the Institute still has some stragglers around

if they have spies anywhere it'll be within the Commonwealth chapter tho

Quintus's chapter is kinda well, small game, to put it lightly

[lime spoke]

really strong ep

but feel like ep 3 is gonna be a real banger

[cobalt pine]

I do wonder what the brotherhood took from the insitute especially since enclave tech was better mostly

[errant bobcat]

cybernetics maybe

i mean the institute was capable of creating whole ass flesh and blood synthetic humans

feel like the brotherhood at the very least nabbed the biotech stuff

[lapis thunder]

The followers of the apocalypse has cybernetics aswell

[lime spoke]

idk probs everything, they did more or less entirely wipe them out lmao

[lapis thunder]

Do you think they integrated some of their brightest minds in

[lime spoke]

*assuming they did beat the institute

[cobalt pine]

Research they buried for a centuary

[lapis thunder]

Ala operation paperclip

[cobalt pine]

Unlikely they blew open the facility

[lapis thunder]

Kaboom

[ashen swan]

i love how his little underlings are all "omg ew - dirt" while he seems genuinely happy for the first time in his life, being up on the surface.

the novelty will probably wear off a bit, but he's more realistic than Lucy, so he'll probably end up still preferring the surface.

[cobalt pine]

Norm the omerta

[austere arch]

@ashen swan removed your post of the video for #rules 2 and 3

[bleak jolt]

One of the West Coast elders (Grand Canyon?) had some kind of exposed plate or circuit board on his scalp, so…

[eager folio]

Norm will enjoy and experience horrors
And i am all for it

Also love how he just decided to somehow control the vault residents and somehow make them work

Basically
Overseer without screaming overseer role

It'll be interesting to see how the resident will find out that norm was responsible for releasing them

[bleak jolt]

Norm is half-true with them. He IS the product of 200 years of managerial breeding.

[eager folio]

They dont need to know the entire thing

[bleak jolt]

IDK how many of y’all ever read the Hitchhiker’s Guide books, but this plot reminds me of the… second or third book in that series.

[eager folio]

Now i am just gonna wait until they all become tribes like in fallout 2

[bleak jolt]

TLDR: society built space arks and loaded one of them up with middle management and other semi-useless people, shot it into space, they land on a new planet and colonize it semi-badly.

(Spoilers for a 35-40 year old novel I guess)

[eager folio]

I honestly expect the people on that vault to be very compotent and actively try to ask question or heck kill norm
Since they are like
You know
Serious individuals

I kinda expect them to be like hank in terms of skill

but clearly hank is an outside factor

literally

[bleak jolt]

It seems like they have Gumption, but maybe not much competency.

[eager folio]

Uh
I dont understnad

[bleak jolt]

They have drive and motivation but are otherwise wildly unprepared.

Also, Norm just pulled a Fallout 76 lol

I expect that a lot of them get killed off in ridiculous ways to emphasize how dumb Bud’s plan was/how capable Lucy and Norm actually are, but I could be wrong.

Like, an entire montage of the 31ers dying in really dumb ways.

Set to “Let’s Go Sunning” perhaps.

[eager folio]

Nah you know what they should to kill them off

I legit forgot one of the songs

[latent cave]

The show is making very clear that almost none NV Fanboys Played other games

Lol they are so pissed about the power that the BoS have

[high aspen]

True, I feel like some expected the BOS to consist of two dudes in a bunker sharing a suit of power armour

[torpid cargo]

That’s exactly where the BoS was at the end of 2 and NV.

[cold jetty]

They simply didn’t pay attention to NV itself.

The brotherhood during that game had other chapters in the west and had the ability to send a chapter to the Mojave to do a side mission while at war with the ncr.

[errant bobcat]

they think the Brotherood are a monolithic faction

when they are not

"why are they so dumb?? thats not waht NV showed!!"

[latent cave]

Like, we know they were very weak in NV but they are not like minutemen lol

[errant bobcat]

they're just finding any and every reason to justify their disdain for the show

saw a thread complaining about how the 3 new elders that showed up were so idiotic and shouldn't be acting against the codex so easily

and the repliers were basically "dawg you know that the Brotherhood are not all the same right?"

[torpid cargo]

Nah it’s kind of justified. Somehow Bethesda always in every media they want the BoS to be the main player. D

Despite them losing the NCR/BoS war and being confined to Lost Hills, and being weakened by both Lyons expedition west, and the forces sent to the Mojave, who all proceeded to die at Helios.

It’s getting old how they pop up everywhere, in force. Regardless of the what the setting is.

They’ve become the “somehow palpatine has returned” faction at this point.

[cold jetty]

The NCR-Brotherhood War in nv shouldn’t even been thing and some of the other additions nv did to weaken the faction. So I’m not mad at it.

"Shield yourself from those not bound to you by steel, for they are the blind. Aid them when you can, but lose not sight of yourself, it says." – Arthur Maxson in Fallout 3

"Fear those who do not pledge to the Brotherhood for though their eyes may be opened through service, they are now blind." – Arthur Maxson in Fallout 3

Vs

"We do not help them, or let them in. We keep knowledge they must never have." – Nolan McNamara in Fallout: New Vegas

[rain hamlet]

so, seeing Norm and co get out of the vault made me question what Vault tec's plan was/is
even if they kill all the humans on the surface, do they just expect it to be a walk in the park from there?
you still have super mutants, deathclaws, radscorpions, giant ants and a whole load of different creatures

or are we going back to the enclave style of plan? kill everything and everyone?

[errant bobcat]

I doubt they could've accounted for all those mutated monstrosities being possibilities tbf

[torpid cargo]

Reclamation day was nothing but bullshit.

[fallen wagon]

its really messing with me how badly they are misrepresenting the council of elders. actually, really terrible portrayals of elders all around beyond quintus.

yet somehow the mojave chapter has some of the most idiotic knights ive seen in any game. and the fight club? the heck

[rain hamlet]

thats what isolation for decades does to you

[fallen wagon]

mcnamara was not a bumbling moron whatsoever.

[torpid cargo]

The Chapters we see in the show are all new, and don’t represent any from the previous games.

Bethesda just whipped them up for the sake of the plot

[fallen wagon]

they all behave in the same idiotic fashion. completely out of character

[rain hamlet]

so far we only see 4 chapters from the west coast
there are way more then that across the US

its also just a bunch of chapters we have never heard about

like the mojave chapter is not shown its a different chapter that operates in the LA area

[fallen wagon]

NONE of the games have portrayed an elder as idiotic. or if they were idiotic they were former elders. take elijah, he was kicked out not because he was idiotic but insane.

the elders show up and the first thing they do is show open hostility when theyve been isolationist prior to that doesnt make sense. if anything they should be careful.

also doesnt make sense why they are doing the whole ring fighting, or the 2 knights being idiots. basically every knight in FNV takes their role extremely serious.

[torpid cargo]

Love how the main BoS chapter in 1 and 2 can send out expeditions, and have every, single, one go against them eventually and split off.

[rain hamlet]

i believe that the serious chapters of the BOS are smart enough to stay in their respective area because they still remember the war against the NCR and are not idiotic enough to fly their airship wherever they want lol
so all we see are idiots that just want power

[fallen wagon]

ncr bos war is one of the major elements of NV world building, why would you get rid of it

[rain hamlet]

like, who in their right minds sees the commonwealth BOS that has control of Boston, DC and has liberty prime and a living Maxson and starts thinking "yea i wanna go to war with them!"

any serious BOS chapter would just stay in their hidey hole

[fallen wagon]

that makes sense to me. and yeah i was thinking hes from mojave chapter but apparently not? either way not sure i like the idea that they are portrayed as stupid simply because nobody else would want to openly declare against arthur maxson

[torpid cargo]

It’s not even unique to New Vegas. The BoS/NCR war has its roots decades before. The BoS was fighting the NCR from Lost Hills as early as 2250.

[rain hamlet]

i expect these chapters to just be idiots/incompetent and nothing more
we will have to see how they handle the east coast BOS

if they are the same as the ones we see so far then the writers are just idiots

[fallen wagon]

thats still a pretty bad approach for portraying a major faction in a major piece of media that the creative director has claimed will be canonized. why would you portray basically the rebel factions of BoS who are only rebelling because they have a stupid plot device and who just want more power. even fo3 handled the rebel element better

ie direct response to elder lyons and his welfare mindset

[torpid cargo]

It has to be intentional. They’re making them look bad so we have a reason to cheer for the East, and be happy when Maximus either betrays them, or reforms them.

[fallen wagon]

and the fucked up thing is you dont even need to come up with these crazy weirdo elders to want to rebel against maxson. the west coast already HATES him and the cultists he inspires

[rain hamlet]

maybe it was just for comedy and in the next few episodes we see them being the badasses that they are supposed to be?

[fallen wagon]

they are basically following the fo4 canon so you can bet they will be space rangers

[eager folio]

To be fair
It is shown that they are idiots from the beginning
The best example is literally the whole time maximus was fighting with someone and killing them

That shows how fall the BoS in the west coast has fallen
They literally killed some of their best soldier just for entertainment

[torpid cargo]

Idk. The whole thing is silly, the BoS were never really major players in the west. Isolationists in 1, cowards in 2. Then they have a long bloody war with the NCR, and by New Vegas they are weak and depleted.

Show should have focused on the NCR instead.

[tame current]

About this
Yeah it dropped down to 8.1 now
Still pretty good

[eager folio]

Tbf
The east coast BoS was pretty much independent and can its own things without the west coast BoS coming
Sure the west coast are in contact with them but even then
They would have to deploy so many things just for what? Some rouge elements

[fallen wagon]

kind of weak episode IMO even ignoring the silly BoS

felt very filler-y

[torpid cargo]

The rest of the episode really was just Norm herding guinea pigs, and Lucy being naive.

[fallen wagon]

lucy is so annoying i swear. dani from GoT levels

[torpid cargo]

And exploding mice I guess. That’s cool

[fallen wagon]

why is the ghoul following lucy anyway? the pip boy can track hank?

[torpid cargo]

That’s also silly. The Ghoul is a feared and skilled bounty hunter at this point. He tracked down Wilzig.

He should be able to find Hank on his own.

[rain hamlet]

well he wants to find his family and he hasnt had any success in 200 years
Hank and by extention Lucy are his only lead

besides, pip boys are always helpful when dealing with anything Vault-Tec related

[errant bobcat]

like being able to open vault doors for one

lucy seems handy with vault-tec tech as well, more than the ghoul at least

[torpid cargo]

Most likely answer is for production reasons. They already have the main cast spread out. That’s like, 10 minutes of screen time at most for each in a 55 minutes episode.

[rain hamlet]

and you COULD take her pipboy/ cut her arm off
but then you only have 1 lead for finding your family and he is gone

[fallen wagon]

yeah i assumed that, but beyond that i wasnt sure if they gave him some excuse to follow her? i guess the writers will set up some situation where lucy has to kill hank or ghoul to advance the plot

[torpid cargo]

We’ve already had a “choose the ghoul or not” this season. Please no

[cold jetty]

“Major elements of world building” please tell me everything that we know about the conflict from the game

[fallen wagon]

but at the same time idk if the writers are just keeping her around so she can show that you can be yourself or whatever themne theyre driving

[fallen wagon]

for starters the reason you use caps in the game is because the war

[rain hamlet]

well, she is the protagonist so she needs a reason to be in the story lol

[cold jetty]

Where was that stated?

[rain hamlet]

besides, they are no longer together anyway

[torpid cargo]

From McNamara: "It's a protective measure that was enacted after our defeat at HELIOS. The NCR was hot on our heels, and we wouldn't have survived another encounter. It was decided that we would stay quiet for a time, heal the wounded, and try to come up with a new strategy. However, after we had fully recuperated, our first scouting measures showed that the NCR's presence in this region had only increased in our absence. There are now more than five times the number of NCR troops in the area as when we fought them, and we have half the number we did at HELIOS. And so the lockdown has been extended. To go outside would be the death of us all."

Sets up why everything is quite nicely

[fallen wagon]

the bos vs ncr was is massive in the game. the ncr is scared shitless of them thats why they want to exterminate them with extreme prejudice and are one of the only factions u cant talk out of it iirc

my memory if kinda hazy tho

[cold jetty]

This is for Helios I want EVERYTHING we know about the ncr-bos war

[bleak jolt]

It is probably best to treat all of Beth’s claims that “this is canon” as a “this is canon going forward” and otherwise it’s like Game of Thrones or the MCU and everything that happened beforehand is going to be a loose adaptation of the games’ lore.

Given that, you know, the backstory is largely drawn from video games with multiple possible endings.

[cold jetty]

Where is this in the game?

[rain hamlet]

the NCR is the only faction that can have an alliance with the BOS in NV

[fallen wagon]

are you not aware who jsawyer is lol

[cold jetty]

I am very aware

[torpid cargo]

Of course we wouldnt get a lot of lore about a conflict that’s happening 200 miles away and started 20 years prior to the events of NV.

[fallen wagon]

that sounds about as canon as any of the lonesome road endings lol

ncr and bos ideologies are mutually exclusive

[rain hamlet]

i didnt say it was CANON, but it is a possible ending for the game
the only good one for the BOS tbh

[cold jetty]

We should. Two of the most major factions in fallout are fighting and are acting very strange and we don’t know shit

[fallen wagon]

fair enough. and i see it possible under an existential threat, which the bos were facing with ncr up against them as a weak chapter

[torpid cargo]

Blame obsidian for having New Vegas set 40 years after 2, and leaving such a big gap of time.

[fallen wagon]

there is nothing weird with the conflict between 2 factions wtih mutually exclusive ideals

[torpid cargo]

Especially when that Faction is notorious for straight up stealing everything valuable that isn’t bolted down, in the heart of NCR territory, for 140+ years straight.

[fallen wagon]

indeed. BoS is poised to be at war with every single community it borders that has enough strength to fight back

outside of smaller chapters that are more open minded, that is

[torpid cargo]

It would be a funny Bethesda move to say none of that actually happened, and the NCR and BoS were just chill the entire time until the nuking of Shady.

[fallen wagon]

fo2 has BoS kinda there but just chilling, and the NCR doesnt try to exterminate them

even though their bunkers are advertised

that would obviously change if they were out there in force kicking down doors like in fo4

[torpid cargo]

I suspect the NCR just didn’t have the strength to lay siege to Lost Hills and the other bunkers. They wouldn’t even expand to Baja or the Mojave until Kimball.

No wonder House was mad, the NCR probably had multiple opportunities to wipe them out.

[cold jetty]

Same group that was peaceful with the Shi and ncr, and even consider to contact the enclave. Reduce to murdering innocent people

Terrible

[coarse grove]

The Council of Elders is not what we see in the show.

I had a looong exhausting discussion about this earlier, the Elders we see in the show are no the Council, these are just Chpater Elders that met behind Maxson's back, as well as Quintus confirmed in the show that he contacted other Chapter Elders, they never showed.

Magnus brought up a good point, they Council of Elders was probably moved to the Commonwealth sometime before the show happened. Especially because Clerics are a newer rank, Maxson would've need the Council's permission to create them.

[torpid cargo]

At least in New Vegas, this is explained and justified by the NCR wanting Helios and not negotiating. Then the Mojave chapter becoming cut off and surrounded.

The chapters in the show however don’t have any such reasoning for being glorified raiders. This is where you need to direct this energy.

[eager folio]

wait so none of them are elders?

[coarse grove]

Not every Elder is on the Council.

[eager folio]

Wait they have a council?

[coarse grove]

That was part of the discussion I was having earlier.

Yes

[eager folio]

Since when?

[coarse grove]

Fallout 1

[eager folio]

Oh now i remember

I just forgot cause well
WHERE WAS THE COUNCIL IN THE REST OF THE GAMES?

[coarse grove]

And Bethesda confirmed they were still alive in Fallout 4, and then proceeded to build the lore on them a little bit in the Fallout rule book for the RPG.

[eager folio]

Wait isnt the council full of elders

[coarse grove]

Yes, but the Elders we see are not the Council of Elders specifically.

[eager folio]

Wait so there more chapters?!?!

[coarse grove]

Yes Quintus says this in the show.

They just didn't show up.

That's why I said this is not the Council. This is just who answered Quintus

[torpid cargo]

Yeah there are a lot. Everywhere. Coming out of the woodwork, and they all hate each other lmao.

[fallen wagon]

fair, but they are still talking about maxson as if hes the high elder. so they might be part of the council of elders still

and it would make most sense if maxson was the high elder. i dont see any chance he would kneel to anyone.

[eager folio]

To be fair
If they do revolt
They clearly state that the commonwealth BoS would beat them

Wait commonwealth BoS?
Isnt that just maxson BoS in a nutshell?

[fallen wagon]

commonwealth bos is the boston and east coast bos amalgamation iirc

err, capitol + commonwealth bos (fo3+fo4)

[coarse grove]

No chance. Yes they're talking about Maxson, but if they were the Council, they wouldn't need to meet in secret they would open rescind their support of him, then. The issue is that these Elders are not the Council, which is why they met the secret.

[torpid cargo]

Is there a reason they are split into two chapters? I thought the commonwealth was just an expedition from the DC chapter.

[cold jetty]

Losing Helios doesn’t justify or explain Killing the followers of the apocalypse and robbing & caravaners. The attack on the van Graffs was the only thing I understand

[coarse grove]

Proctor Quinlin says dozens of chapters East make up their full force.

Maxson absorbed a bunch.

[fallen wagon]

the council would be obviously opposing maxson but he has the military overmatch so it doesnt matter. of course depicting this is asking a lot of the show writers..

[coarse grove]

They're split to hold territory. DC is Maxson's main recruiting force, as well as his most Bolstered territory. Boston being second.

[cold jetty]

They’re probably just saying commonwealth because it’s more recognizable

I can’t see the east coast being so strong if they’re spilt again

[coarse grove]

It doesn't change the fact it has to be an UNEVEN vote. Like I said these Elders are not the Council, the Council has the authority to demote a High Elder. That's the whole point. But you wouldn't be doing it in secret like this.

[fallen wagon]

maxson is strong enough to crush the council so i doubt they would try to oppose him openly. doing it in secret would make a lot more sense to me. he is the direct living heir of roger maxson, has military overmatch. he doesnt need to kneel to the council

but again this is giving credit to the writers a lot

[torpid cargo]

Yeah the word chapter is confusing me. It seems to mean any group of brotherhood, regardless of allegiance or ideology. The east really should just be one complete chapter, as the outcasts are no more, and the Pitt was annexed.

[coarse grove]

No, but he does, this is part of the problem people keep missing. Maxson is not a tyrant, he sought out the Council's approval to begin with.
He's not going to ignore it, it's not of his character at all.

The only way you would view this, is if you believe that Maxson is like comically evil - but he's confirmed not to be and actually care about the Brotherhood. He would follow the Codex, he's the only character in the damn lore that actually has shown to known dozens of words from it and what they mean.

Which means if the Council decided he's unfit, he would step down - regardless of his power or not, he would've have fought so hard to gain their approval either.

[fallen wagon]

the council hasnt really been depicted in any official material from what i understand, so at best you're assuming. he's broken a lot of convention already, i see him utterly disregarding the council as well if they dont recognize him.

[coarse grove]

At least my assumptions are sticking to what IS described as the Council to behave, there is no indication that what we see are the Council of Elders in the show. It's just a meet.

[fallen wagon]

but there is no actual in game mention of any council and how maxson relates to it thats the problem with just making up headcanon where maxson has to answer to some higher power he likely would disregard. he is a cult of personality.

[coarse grove]

Chapter refers to a group of the Brotherhood lead by an Elder.

[coarse grove]

There doesn't need to be, there's more than just in-game media to Fallout. The two indications we have are from Fallout 1, and Fallout's RPG rulebook. And both describe the Council as a body of Elders that make up overarching decisions of the entire Brotherhood proper.
And it's also said they operate as a democracy.

The fact alone Quintus called other Chapters, and they refused, points at him not even being on the Council because if he was, he wouldn't need to. He would only need to round up all the Council members, Quintus specifically says people only showed who can spare the resources.

[torpid cargo]

If the council of elders had any real power or influence, I doubt they would let their children chapters become what they are. Sounds like it’s all smoke and mirrors.

[coarse grove]

None of what I said is made up headcanon, especially if the Council is confirmed to have his backing IN the games. You're just assuming what we saw is the Council of Elders, with literally zero confirmation otherwise.
Maxson has shown to respect the Council and not disregard them because they're integral to the Brotherhood. whether you like the character or not, he cares about his faction.

[coarse grove]

This is also true, it's why I said what Magnus said before it makes sense - which Maxson probably turned the Council of Elders into the Clerics in the Commonwealth.

Now this is an assumption. ^

Cause the clerics have more power or just as much power as an Elder.

[fallen wagon]

where in fo4 is the council of elders ever mentioned?

[coarse grove]

Proctor Quinlin mentions them.

[fallen wagon]

thanks, gonna look it up

[coarse grove]

He specifically says Maxson has the FULL backing of the Council back West.

The quote is on the Wiki, as well.

[fallen wagon]

can you link it

[coarse grove]

The full quote.

"As of 2287, Elder Maxson's reign in the Capital Wasteland was uncontested, and his authority and influence were spreading across the East Coast. The Prydwen was a key element of the Brotherhood's power projection, rallying people to his cause. In addition, Maxson had been in contact with other chapters over the years. In the words of Proctor Quinlan, who documented Maxson's rise, "he has the full support of the Elders back on the West Coast, who have proudly reported that they've begun eradicating cults that have popped up, worshipping Maxson as though he's some kind of god." Maxson was offended by the idea of being deified, as it went against his beliefs. He is satisfied with being, again in Proctor Quinlan's words, "the perfect human specimen, an example of everything a human being can achieve. Assisted, even enhanced, by advanced technology, but still very much human."

[torpid cargo]

BoS lore makes my head hurt. It really is just the “anything goes” faction

[coarse grove]

I actually dunno if lore links are allowed but.

And then the Council of Elders is mentioned in the rulebook.

Fallout: The Roleplaying Game Rulebook p.382: "Elders make up the Brotherhood of Steel's leadership council. To reach the lofty position of Elder, an individual must progress through the Brotherhood's ranks and must reach at least Paladin to be considered. While a council of Elders are responsible for the entire organization, one or more Elders may also lead their own chapters in various parts of the wasteland."

Maxson CANNOT be High Elder WITHOUT the Council's approval.

[fallen wagon]

the chapters on the east coast mentioned arent the council of elders, its my understanding that the council is the one thats trying to squash down the cults of maxson. but idk where i got that from

[coarse grove]

It doesn't say east coast.

[fallen wagon]

west coast*

[coarse grove]

What you said doesn't make sense. Even if I granted you that, it doesn't change the fact Maxson cannot be High Elder without the Council's approval.

That's how it's always worked for a High Elder to be of that position. There's only ever one high elder at a time.

Because Arthur isn't just the High Elder ; he's defacto Supreme Commander.

[fallen wagon]

his influence would be growing so the remaining elders would need to prop him up for legitimacy. it makes more sense to see the council of elders desperately struggling to maintain control from maxson's growing influence

[coarse grove]

Which gives him overarching authority to command Chapters that he can communicate with.

[fallen wagon]

read this line:

"he has the full support of the Elders back on the West Coast, who have proudly reported that they've begun eradicating cults that have popped up, worshipping Maxson as though he's some kind of god."

[coarse grove]

This assumes like I said, Maxson dislikes the Council, which would imply he dislikes his own faction's structure - one that he RELIES on and has relied on specifically to get things done.
The Clerics too are position he had to get approval to create.

[fallen wagon]

the council are losing grasp on their power base that are starting to get turned on to maxsons side

[coarse grove]

I've read this line a dozen of times. But you're not quoting the full line, either. Lol Which gives context as to WHY that's said, which has nothing to do with Elders.

It has to do with Maxson's personal belief of being defied, not the Elder's power.

The next sentence is literally, "Maxson was offended by the idea of being defied."

"he has the full support of the Elders back on the West Coast, who have proudly reported that they've begun eradicating cults that have popped up, worshipping Maxson as though he's some kind of god." Maxson was offended by the idea of being deified, as it went against his beliefs. He is satisfied with being, again in Proctor Quinlan's words, "the perfect human specimen, an example of everything a human being can achieve. Assisted, even enhanced, by advanced technology, but still very much human."

Is the full quote.

Which with context, makes perfect sense of his character.

It has nothing to do with the Elders aside from them supporting Maxson and his decisions. Albeit even if personal ones, and nothing he asked them to do, violates the Codex, or the brotherhood's being.

[torpid cargo]

Maxson is probably aware there ain’t a damn thing the council in the west could do to stop him. They didn’t do anything against Lyons. He is both noble, and stupid for listening to them at all.

[fallen wagon]

im not seeing your point outside of that youre agree arguing with me. maxson is so influential that he can have chapters elders from across the nation eradicate followers of him

he can walk all over the council if he wants, that's the level of support he has from his followers.

[coarse grove]

They probably can't, but Maxson is not some comic level tyrant where he would trample on the Council specifically, whether he likes it or not, he needs them to maintain his position as High Elder. For the specific reason they can demote him.

[coarse grove]

Yes, but he won't, you're operating under the assumption he's a tyrant who doesn't respect the Brotherhood, I'm not. That's where we disagree.

[fallen wagon]

he would fully trample the council if they defied him. the nuance is that the council won't do that until they are in power to do so. that's my headcanon in the absence of actual recent lore.

[coarse grove]

The council isn't treating him like a deity so this argument makes no sense.

[fallen wagon]

his legitimacy is derived from the codex, but if the council's interpretation differed from his, he could squash them. for example if they thought that his methods were too harsh.

[fallen wagon]

im not saying that. im saying that his followers are, that alone gives him more power and legitimacy over the council.