EPISODE 8

[icy pagoda]

You said words, that doesn't mean they were substantial

[trail cove]

We literally don't know how these battles went, or if Lacerta Legate was exagerrating or not

[olive wadi]

Exaggerating about what

[trail cove]

Exagerrating was the wrong word. More like glorifying.

[olive wadi]

Ok glorifying what

[trail cove]

He tried to make it sound like the Legion was sucessfully taking on three factions on once.

[pulsar lintel]

We don’t know the full extent of the Khans power but like I doubt they’re at all equivalent to the NV NCR lol, even with the other threats in mind

[trail cove]

It's clear he was glorifying it because the NCR is in a bad position, and the Khans...well we don't even know much about the Khans in the show besides them still being around.

[pulsar lintel]

The most we see from them are a bunch of hillbillies in Novac

[olive wadi]

How was he glorifying it

[trail cove]

I saw someone claim that that the Khan Empire ending was canon with zero evidence

[olive wadi]

He stated that they're at war with these factions while they're trying to solve the Caesar problem

[pulsar lintel]

It’s definitely feasible, they have a fuckton of territory now apparently

[glacial yew]

legion aint even all that just give the NCR more funding and theyll be aight

[olive wadi]

Funny joke

[pulsar lintel]

But we don’t really know

[olive wadi]

NCR getting any support from the NCR

[trail cove]

There's no evidence to even suggest they can compete with the Legion on such a large scale

[olive wadi]

There's evidence enough that the legion considers them a real faction

[trail cove]

He was being vague about the state of these "wars" with these factions

[olive wadi]

Being recognized 15 years later as a current enemy

[trail cove]

Maybe because there's barely any real fighting factions in the Mojave.

[olive wadi]

If he was glorifying it he would have said something like we are destroying the enemy factions

He was just telling Lucy the context of what was going on while explaining the problem with the little caesars

[trail cove]

Well, the NCR in the Mojave barely had a presence until the battalion showed up in Vegas (we don't know if they were still within the region), and amounted to 3 soldiers. Might as well include the Kings while they're at it.

[olive wadi]

We know the NCR had some presence there as Kevinus does say they're still fighting them and they're willing to trade Lucy for information on the ranger camp

Enough to consider them a threat

Ghoul and Lucy are probably on Caesars death list now

[trail cove]

Just because the Legion is aware of their existence doesn't mean they're a real threat besides the Brotherhood.

[olive wadi]

To be recognized as a faction you are at war with is enough

We haven't seen much of Khans but they did take over novac

[trail cove]

Novac is such a footnote, was there even people there when the Khans came?

[olive wadi]

Given there was an entire society there probably

Unless they were all killed beforehand or left for some reason

[trail cove]

There's not really any indicator there has been anyone in the town for a long while. But it doesn't matter, because the Khans have such a little presence in the Mojave

[pulsar lintel]

I never said they could on their own, but my point is that they have a lot of territory. They’re all the way in the Boneyards. They could be fairly powerful for all we know.

[trail cove]

Colorado borders Wyoming, so we might get a mention at the Khans if the Khan Empire ending is canon

[dense wharf]

i dont think the legion was ever made aware that the ghoul was the one that set off the explosives

it blows up and the two are able to leave without anyone harassing them

[grizzled garden]

funny enough the enclaves base is in the snow also

[late oyster]

So, Bob. I'm assuming he roboticised his consciousness but without the diode SOMEONE came along and killed his physical body while his consciousness was left dormant without a power source?

[tiny lake]

Back to hibernation I'll see ya'll again in 2027

[carmine quiver]

🤝

[mystic plaza]

It's less with zero evidence, it's the fact that the Khans wouldn't be able to have the large amount of territory they do now, without growing exponetially. You have to understand 99% of the Khans were confined to that fucking Canyon. lmao they weren't allowed to expand. When the NCR left, their restrictions were pretty much gone - and their biggest antagonist was out of their way. They had free roam to expand and grow. And the fact Ma June said outside of SS/Boneyard is basically Khan country and we've seen them as far as Novac which is literally on the otherside of the map in-game - and even FARTHER in the show?
That pretty much does confirm they're pretty large. Whether or not Redrock is still their home is unclear, but they definitely are pretty up there to be warring with the Legion, they'd have to be.

[pulsar lintel]

They definitely are not situated in Red Rock anymore if they’ve gone as far as the Boneyard imo. They hate that place.

[mystic plaza]

I'd agree with that, yeah. I'm just saying without them growing, there's no way they could've feasibly expanded the way they did.

[pulsar lintel]

Yeah

It’s possible that they just got a lot of recruitment and expanded elsewhere from Red Rock once the NCR fell apart

I wonder if the Khans hold Mojave Outpost now

[trail cove]

I thought the Brotherhood were holding that place according to the map?

[coral flare]

is liberty prime a big reveal? i havent played the games but i saw some hype around the post credit scene

[lilac raven]

pretty much yeah. Pre-war superweapon to wipe out Chinese invaders of Alaska. Never saw the light of day due to the immense power source it required, it was effectively in an arms race with Power Armor, and power armor won.

been used heavily in the Capital Wasteland by wiping out the Enclave, than being destroyed later on by them, and then rebuilt in F4. Main armanent was some kind of energy beam weapon that explosively wipes out hostiles, followed by custom-nukes it tosses like a football from it's backpack.

so in the hands of a crazed BoS asswipe Elder that is hellbent on killing EVERYONE including the commonwealth BoS, it is a world-ending scenario unless someone can kill the controller or have a massive enough payload/trap to disable the massive robot.

[vernal field]

Did I?

[lilac raven]

besides the somewhat silly snipe, they looked badass.

didn't make sense that a town of 35k would suddenly cripple a small nation of 1.1 million.

[vernal field]

Not that silly. It's call back and an efficent use of 50 cal.

[lilac raven]

I know, but what was silly was him not moving from the recoil, or aiming down the sights, or even having movement after the kill-shot was confirmed

[vernal field]

It was the capital.

But perhaps it didn't.

Was it ever said in the show that shady sands' death crippled the nation?

[lilac raven]

didn't even load another round, looked like he was frozen solid.

[lilac raven]

it insinuated it, people immediately jumped to the conclusion that NCR was 'finished' which was ridiculous.

[vernal field]

It's a consistent thing with the show.

I don't think the prop guns based on game content have any functional fire systems.

Look at the 6520 when Thaddeus dumped the cylinder in season 1

[vernal field]

Ig I and everyone who took to that conclusion got too far ahead of ourselves.

[lilac raven]

that's fine, I was just expecting them to 'play' recoil, aka they make their own body surge as if there WAS a round there, ya know, just faking it

honestly the only real weird thing with the shot was him not looking down the scope or at least MOVING after the killshot, like any life.

[vernal field]

Yeah.

It is what it is.

I do think that the show would benefit from more.... functional arms props. So they can be loaded with blanks.

Or do some suitmation trickery and yank the actor in ranger armour

I mean people have built strange contraptions to do so for shooters and other games.

[tawdry spade]

Anyone else catch this?

[opaque lichen]

war never changes

[carmine quiver]

NATE THE RAKE 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

[lilac raven]

thousand yard stare bne a thing

[lilac raven]

it happens. At worse, it would cause a logistical collapse because again, head chiefs are gone, therefore the chain of supply of fucked, however that is TEMPORARY. Any solid nation would always have a way to recuperate and set up a chain of command quickly, which in this case, it would probably be the next highest ranking officer to take over.

than to setup a new or other existing area that is under NCR control, than redouble the effort on logistics, supplies and such.

[vernal field]

Like the new saying I heard.

The bear lost it's head.

But it always had another.

[trail cove]

We will rise again, brother. We won't go quietly. The Legion, The Brotherhood can count on that.

[lilac raven]

so for them, without proper transportation, it would be...yeah, about half a decade to recuperate and figure out where to establish the new chain of command/council.

would definitely cause a standstill in the hoover dam war, and thankfully, it seems Caesar died somewhere along the line, thankfully.

[vernal field]

Prolly. But it's all a matter of reorganising. Tough. But the heritage of Aradesh and Tandi was not an easy one.

[lilac raven]

because if he was around and noticed the sudden disarray, he would've easily taken advantage and fucked over the NCR even further.

[patent dagger]

How is he gonna get it

[vernal field]

There have always been hard times. So the ncr has always been made of hard men and women.

[lilac raven]

hrm...maybe he did, judging by camp McCarren.

[lilac raven]

honestly, that's the part that bothers me. What we saw was BLUEPRINTs, ain't no way he's got the tech to make his own verison...

[trail cove]

Our enemies surround us with hate. Good thing we don't have to aim then.

[vernal field]

I can only think of two things that could be guilty of that.

[lilac raven]

unless he plans to build a new version for himself, the only option I can see is purposely letting the commonwealth BoS come into range and than hack it.

[vernal field]

Aiming does help.

[patent dagger]

And if he plans the other way how will he get to the original

[vernal field]

Tumour.

Or a certain mercenary mailman.

[lilac raven]

would have to be spy shenanigans, much like how the Institute used a synth to hack the robot in their ending.

causing it to see the BoS as chinese invaders and attack them, wiping them out.

[patent dagger]

They still had to slaughter the room to do so

[vernal field]

That said.

I'd rather not know.

I like the mystery of how he died.

Leave it unclear since the how of that matter isn't important.

[lilac raven]

I think it will either be more subtle than that, or it truly will be somehow chaotic and they miracuously acquire the parts to rebuild Liberty Prime.

that or...yeah, they go on a crazy tech scrounging fiasco to create Liberty Prime. I dunno how that's gonna work...

[patent dagger]

There is still the issue of the firefight outside

[lilac raven]

I have no doubts that Quintus will probably kill the remaining Brotherhood members that are in the infighting, even if he lost his own airship, it seems they all went nuts and attacked each other indiscriminately, so in the end, it would either be all airships wiped out, or just 1 badly damaged one remaining.

which is...quite a vast amount of tech and parts lying about, now.

[vernal field]

Would make the ncr, and other wastelander group's job in rebuilding a lot easier

I suppose that still makes 5 taking place within ncr nation dealing with more internal and conspiritorial threats still possible.

Just shady sands being gone is... a shame.

[lilac raven]

it wouldn't, because unfortunately, this fight took place to the north of Vegas, about 130+ miles north.

[vernal field]

• a tad easier. If they can secure the materials

[lilac raven]

so for Quintus:
-he has now access to several broterhood chapter tech during the infighting above Area 51, another trove of tech and a potentially massive underground complex
-he has access to liberty prime blueprints.

he may actually create his own version of Liberty Prime, in all honesty.

dunno how he's gonna power it, but I can potentially see it.

so combined with this, the Enclave moving to Phase 2, whatever that is, and the fucking Legion going bonkers, this is...going to be a handful for the NCR.

kind of worried, in all honesty.

[patent dagger]

How has the enclave existed so close to the legion for so long

[fallow elm]

Because the plot needed it

[compact bramble]

Enclave would bulldoze the entire Legion with like two squads, that’s why

If the Legion got anywhere near Enclave territory they were probably removed with extreme prejudice

[jagged wing]

@charred sapphire either way that mr house cooper is talking too, is just a brain scanned ai to think he is the original

The original mr house died when the courier killed him with a golf club

[compact bramble]

https://tenor.com/view/falcon-sam-wilson-outta-line-but-gif-22091662

[patent marsh]

So what can we surmise happened canonically in a New Vegas playthrough with definitive proof? We know Caesar didn't die to a headshot; it's likely the Courier never killed him at all. Fisto was reactivated and escorted to the Atomic Wrangler. The Kings weren't wiped out (that happens later, unfortunately). The Platinum Chip was delivered because the securitrons had their firmware update. Courier delivered all the base game snowglobes to Mr House. What else is there

The Great Khans were never wiped out and were never encouraged to leave Nevada

[meager elm]

my biggest "proof" is the lone robot by house's computer when no others are seen

[patent marsh]

yeah it's mega compelling evidence the yes man ending is canon but it's just on the cusp of not being definitive

[meager elm]

#1447296686111068221 message

also the cadence of how house speaks is different than what weve seen of him in earlier episodes

could be nothing but to me i feel like someone is trying to replicate his mannorisms

[patent marsh]

ending aside are there any other petty details on factions or sidequests we can definitively conclude happened

[lilac raven]

https://klipy.com/gifs/enclave-fallout2

would've sent the minigun verison, but it seems it was removed, sad.

but yeah, I think the Enclave sees them as a non-threat, and if they were taken seriously, plasma casters would melt them outright as well as heavy incinerators going nuts in turning people into ash.

[meager elm]

discord went stupid, you have to go on giphy now

[lilac raven]

and while I've seen T-45 and T-60 do poorly against explosives, I don't think Hellfire will have much issue with small-grade explosives, considering that thing looks like a walking fridge of death.

[lilac raven]

huge RIP

[jagged wing]

@meager elm to be fair I think it's yes man combined with the memories of Mr house

[lilac raven]

now the NCR is a bigger threat, 50 BMG is a pretty big equalizer, as well as 45-70 gov.

but with the Legion used as fodder, allows the Enclave to do their nefarious plans without being interrupted or spotted.

[patent marsh]

it's entirely plausible when Yes Man mentioned reprogramming themselves to be more assertive they decided Robert House was the best candidate who had a lot of his personality stored digitally

[lilac raven]

in a way, the House won in that scenario, even if he has gone Bust.

dude thought just about everything in foresight.

[meager elm]

my friend thought maybe yes man was a backup for house because house was always into the little details

[patent marsh]

Robert House would have been shortsighted to not consider the possibility Benny was going to betray him and had countermeasures in place

He even picked up on the Followers of the Apocalypse tapping into his system

[meager elm]

exactly and the fact he can monitor all the robco robots in range of him benny at the tops wouldve been noticed

[lilac raven]

the more light is shed on House, the more incredibly insane his perception is. Perception and intelligence so on point, you'd think he'd have a natural 10 on Luck.

[meager elm]

then again he didnt even know the white gloves were becoming cannibals again

[lilac raven]

indeed, I think he was going hands-off with them and was a more loyalty thing, judging by his disapproval when he finds out from the Courier.

[patent marsh]

Robert probably didn't view them as a threat worth the processing power unlike Gomorrah

[hazy laurel]

so house is basically still stuck in that tube down there

[tender island]

It’s basically an Iron Giant but this time the Iron Giant does, in fact, like being a weapon.

[coral flare]

is it man operated power armour? not like an ai right

[shadow saddle]

Yes really, he cited 14 specifically because those were the main ones

[tender island]

It’s a robot with programming. Less “Gundam” more “Optimus Prime” (hence the name)

The programming in question is mostly “kill commies” and it’s shockingly easy to program it to see pretty much anyone you want blown up as “the commies”

Which in the hands of more capable writers might be an interesting observation about American politics, come to think of it.

(It’s not very smart so Optimus Prime is a bad comparison personality-wise. It’s a Protectron the size of a building.)

[rain breach]

It's Chat-GPT in an iron body

[late oyster]

I've seen someone claim that Liberty Prime does have some reasoning capabilities since he's seen strategising and whatnot but since he's been awake like a whole hour he really hasn't had time to think or learn anything. Probably just a headcanon but hey, it's a fun one

[odd saddle]

He’s definitely a learning ai

[late oyster]

There's no way House would make the flagship robot of the United States army an idiot

[coral flare]

oh liberty prime was made by house?

does that mean like the brotherhood and house are related post war?

[quick walrus]

No

[carmine quiver]

no

[coral flare]

pre war sorry

[quick walrus]

Same case

[elder fiber]

it's Googles fault for taking tenor api down :(

[quick walrus]

Beside the bos was only formed literally days before the bombs fell or hours idk exactly when

[carmine quiver]

brotherhood is, technically, pre-war as i think Roger Maxson shot those scientists about a week before the bombs dropped iirc?? but they didn't really form their organisation until after the bombs fell.

[meager elm]

Also, the Appalachian bos went through Colorado mountains and encountered a "heavy force" on their way to west Virginia

[late oyster]

Yeah a few days before the Great War

[meager elm]

He unified former battle buddies and started a group before the war but they became official after the bombs dropped when they stuck together

[quick walrus]

Fallout 1 and 76 has the msot lore about it

[meager elm]

Wasn't the Appalachian bos it was the first expeditionary force straight from cali

[quick walrus]

If i remember
Fallout 1 involves how the bos orginally was fromed and who the original elder was
fallout 76 i think explains how the bos was created

[shadow saddle]

Wait so did Lucy destroy the head or nah?

[late oyster]

Pretty sure

[meager elm]

Yea read up on the Appalachian bos it was lead by one of maxson's good friends

[obtuse niche]

Fallout 1 explains creation, fallout 76 just adds an east coast side plot that doesn't really matter to the rest of the continuity

[quick walrus]

Hopefully
I am tired of her not killing things

[obtuse niche]

And expands on the California BoS lore a bit

[meager elm]

It mattered enough that maxson sent an entire battalion to find her

[late oyster]

Hey, killing things is hard. I have to give that to her

[obtuse niche]

It doesn't matter to anything that happens after 76 I mean

[quick walrus]

*Kills @obtuse niche *
Boom not that hard

[late oyster]

I assume you've never killed something before

[obtuse niche]

Like yes the scorched would've been bad if it was an ongoing issue but overall their role in the lore can't be too impactful because of the games which are all chronologically later than it

[quick walrus]

...

honestly i like to imagine you sitting there being like
"wait he did?"

No i havent and yes i know killing is hard
But
This is fallout

[late oyster]

Thought not. I had to kill a rabbit the other day since it was injured. It's not easy. Really changes your perspective on how in these games and shows they/we just kill all willy-nilly

[obtuse niche]

I like Lucy standing on business about not wanting to kill people and things

[obtuse niche]

Wish we had the chance to not kill people in the games but alas

[patent dagger]

The white gloves are nuisance but the omertas posed a direct threat

[quick walrus]

Wait are you stating killing human or animals?
Cause i have already hunted animals in my time in iran at the age of like idk 8 or 15?
I was young thats all i know

[late oyster]

I always try the diplomatic approach unless they're absolute scum. More interesting, less dangerous and saves on ammo

[late oyster]

Animals lol

[quick walrus]

Then the answer to your question is yes and it honestly didnt change anything

[late oyster]

Damn

[quick walrus]

[patent dagger]

House regarding the free families is only concerned about threats to his power and businesses

His nick name not at home is due to his hands off nature

[ruby ledge]

can somebody tell me if courier six did exist in the shows canon or if he did not because was the mention of "wanderers travelling around" trying to kill house a nod to the courier or wasn't it i still don't get it

[quick walrus]

He is however casual about killing off ultra lux if finding otu cannibals

[quick walrus]

Well
The corueir exists that we know
He got the platinum chip for house

[patent dagger]

Disappearances are not good for business

[meager elm]

House says he has eyes everywhere but he had no idea if the cannibals

[obtuse niche]

Their role in the story is unclear but a courier definitely delivered a chip to house

Maybe they can do the enclave well but I have a feeling it'll be more disinteresting black and white with all the nuance going to other factions and groups

[dusk mica]

They're deliberately vague so you kind bruteforce your playthrough's results ending up like the show in your headcanon. I think that's kinda dumb tbh because the S2 is literally kinda New Vegas 2

[patent dagger]

He does not have securitrons in the casinos to assure the tribes

[quiet depot]

!mute 286174454298443787 30m repeat rule breaking of #rules 2

[coarse warren]

orateur muted dalekcaan. for 30 minutes. Reason: repeat rule breaking of #rules 2

[quick walrus]

That the major flaw that house has
House has very powerful tools, know how to use it and know a lot of things
The issue is that he doesn't know SPECIFC information that are vital
He doesnt know gommorah plans but knows they are doing something weird
he doesnt know utlra-lux are cannibals
and he didnt knew benny was being a major problem for him

[ruby ledge]

and there is this securitron laying infront of the computer in the penthouse, this is exactly what happens to yes man if you choose to replace house with him, he deactivates at exactly this place

[patent dagger]

Benny he suspected but thought had in hand

[patent dagger]

Not this again

[obtuse niche]

It could be yes man but until they tell us it is think it's just a reference

[ruby ledge]

okay

[quick walrus]

I am confused
What do you mean this again
What happened?

[ruby ledge]

dogmeat is a synth

[patent dagger]

This one keeps coming up and not stopping

[obtuse niche]

That securitron comes up a lot

[ruby vortex]

whats mr krabs doing on fallout

[patent dagger]

Being president

[ruby vortex]

aura farming fr

[ruby ledge]

didn't know this

[ruby vortex]

so mr krabs didnt actually make the krabby patty formular, he actually took it from coop

[patent dagger]

Nothing personal just it came up a lot

[patent dagger]

Why yes

[quick walrus]

Its just a dumb robot

[obtuse niche]

And a dead one too

[ruby vortex]

i loved when coop smiled bro

[patent dagger]

For season 3 i would actually like if only coop and dogmeat went to colorado

[obtuse niche]

That seems like what's happening for now

[patent dagger]

Keep lucy and max in vegas than cali

[late oyster]

I feel like for the show they've gone for an "all endings canon" thing

[obtuse niche]

Maximus and Lucy in Vegas, norm in California, ghoul in Colorado

[patent dagger]

True but i think lucy and max will try head to 33

[obtuse niche]

Maybe

[quick walrus]

That seems to be the direction with norm also mentioned
There is no way lucy and maximus plot can keep going

[obtuse niche]

But the legion and NCR are at play in Vegas still

[quick walrus]

Not unless lucy start exterminating all legions

[patent dagger]

We are gonna need more drugs

[quick walrus]

True
That can be another plot for maximus and lucy

[obtuse niche]

Wonder if we'll get some frumentarii action

[patent dagger]

Sadly i think they are gone

[quick walrus]

I need to see more legion dying

[obtuse niche]

True

Watching NCR guys fight the legion will be blissful

[quick walrus]

Why are you sadden by this
Less raider for us to waste bullet on

[ruby ledge]

i think there has to be a canon ending otherwise it wouldn't make sense, someone had to take over hoover dam and vegas. i think there is an explanation for all this stuff going on later, i don't know if we ever gonna get it but there has to be

[patent dagger]

I see it as a house ending where the ncr and legion did not back down meekly

[obtuse niche]

I don't think the group that won at the dam really matters albeit I really doubt it was Caesar

[patent dagger]

No the legion looks in rough shape and like its relocated

[ruby ledge]

lonesome road ending 😭

[late oyster]

I think everyone lost in the end. Legion was left without a ruler and resorted to infighting, NCR was devastated after the loss of Shady Sands and pulled out of the Mojave to support the homeland and House was damaged and sent into dormancy. Yes Man might've been uploaded but also might've been purged by House somehow. As to who got the dam, doesn't matter now I guess?

Personally I think the NCR won the Second Battle of Hoover Dam, but again, that doesn't matter anymore

[shadow saddle]

Acting like nothing happened

...which is in character

[shadow saddle]

They should bring back it and the chip as factors

[dusk mica]

The enclave are fascists, there aren't many shades of gray to fascism tbh even irl

[quick walrus]

That an insult
They are true american
Realsitcally, they literally the nazi of fallout

[late oyster]

same thing

[quick walrus]

Ideology yes but the methods are not

[patent dagger]

Exterminate

[quick walrus]

Whom?

[patent dagger]

Everyone

[hallow hill]

The main ones he could think of

Vague political ideologies don't work the same way as rigorous axiomatic systems found in logic and mathematics

There's no reason to suppose that it must be fourteen as if that's the only logically feasible combination of options

[jagged wing]

I would love to see cooper become a glowing one

Remember that uranium rock inside his gut

[shadow saddle]

...as an historian who is expert on fascism, unlike you

[shadow saddle]

Maybe not exactly, but that doesn't mean you get to pretend like he doesn't know what he's talking about at all

[random bramble]

What are your credentials

[hallow hill]

I mean, he was a medievalist, rather than a specialist in modern history, but even if he were, that wouldn't be entirely relevant to how essential the number of points listed is

Various experts would produce varying lists of fourteen or less/more points

[random bramble]

I don’t doubt you but you did just use “an” instead of “a”

[quick walrus]

Hmm lets test his knowledge
what is facism

[hallow hill]

Yeah you clearly aren't equipped for this topic because you rely on oversimplified binaries of this sort

[dense wharf]

fascism is when stuff i dont like happens

[quick walrus]

So taxes?

[dense wharf]

yes, and also roads

[quick walrus]

How can one hate roads?

[dense wharf]

and sometimes school

[hallow hill]

There's nothing about my skepticism here that warrants believing that I'm entirely delegitimizing Umberto Eco's work

[random bramble]

What’s the fallout argument here? Some faction is or isn’t fascism

[dense wharf]

i just dont like em, they're too asphalt-y

[quick walrus]

So anyways
I hate the NCR

[hallow hill]

Plus notice how they always leave out the left wing aspects of fascism

[dense wharf]

what even is the argument about

the legion or enclave or some other faction is fascist?

[harsh bolt]

Vault 0 in season 3 for sure

[hallow hill]

Maybe the "selective populism" part is a vague reference to the left wing aspects of fascism

But all forms of populism are selective

[pearl ferry]

i think he might be a red, guys

[harsh bolt]

de facto enclave is fascist, its on the wiki

[random bramble]

I mean just based on the common definition fascism is a far right ideology

[hallow hill]

Here we go again

[random bramble]

It has drifted tho

[late oyster]

Authoritarian might be a better term

[dusk mica]

Legion is further into authocratic dictatorship

[random bramble]

It still hits the major notes of fascism

[hallow hill]

Fascism was considered left wing by contemporaries

[random bramble]

Who are these contemporaries

[harsh bolt]

it's literally on the wiki

[random bramble]

I’m not a political scientist

[hallow hill]

More largely capitalistic societies

[random bramble]

Like? Can you cite this please?

[dense wharf]

i think trying to put a label on the politics of the post-apocalypse is a kind of pointless endeavor

[hallow hill]

SoUuRce

[random bramble]

Wiki is not a source of truth

[dusk mica]

Legion is so extreme that the fascist label is actually kinda soft on them lol

[random bramble]

I mean I just haven’t read the literature you have apparently

[dense wharf]

caesar and the ncr arent exactly going to be reading up on marx and political theory

[random bramble]

I just want to know the background for these claims

[harsh bolt]

there sources on the wiki that prove that enclave is fascist

[dense wharf]

nah they're not really any more extreme than a lot of historical regimes that have existed

[random bramble]

The enclave is definitely fascist

[hallow hill]

I just reasoned to the conclusion independently

[late oyster]

Arcade himself calls the Enclave fascist

[hallow hill]

No, I don't have a quote on hand

[harsh bolt]

Democratic (nominally), Fascism (de facto)

[random bramble]

At least by the common 21st century definition the enclave fits the bill

[dense wharf]

nothing the legion does is uniquely evil, slavery and militarism and warmongering has been with us before

[random bramble]

Doesn’t make it not evil lmao

[harsh bolt]

the wiki:

https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Enclave

[dusk mica]

Sure, fascist regimes have done awful and heinous things. But they're usually kept under the rug or denied.

The Legion does not hide the rape, crucifixions, etc. That's why they're pretty damn extreme.

[hallow hill]

Many of the common features associated with fascism were aspects of pre-war societies (as in, pre-WW2) prior to their civil reforms

[late oyster]

The Legion revels in its thirst for blood and subjugation of lessers

[dusk mica]

"Uniquely evil" my brother in Christ it doesn't matter if it's "uniquely" evil. Evil is evil lol

[hallow hill]

Like the US heavily endorsed eugenics up until the thirties

[quiet depot]

We have one person whom is well versed in ideologies. So here is a quick link for you #fallout_general message

[random bramble]

I don’t see how this disproves its a factor in a fascist state

[hallow hill]

Fascist ideologies adopted these trends, but put an economically collectivist twist on them

[late oyster]

Wait, the US were the bad guys?

[dense wharf]

i never called them not evil

[random bramble]

Who knew

[hallow hill]

It doesn't

[dusk mica]

btw slavery, militarism and warmongering isn't a thing of the past, it's happening RIGHT NOW. US partners like Saudi Arabia have slaves. The US has been warmongering since its inception.

[hallow hill]

But fascism doesn't per se require eugenics

[random bramble]

Yeah the United States does a lot of disgusting stuff

[harsh bolt]

about the enclave

[hallow hill]

The UK was somewhat nationalistic to an extent during the Victorian period, albeit to a lesser extent than say, Italy during the thirties

[dense wharf]

mass killings, rape, raiding, and looting were common occurrences in the pre-modern age, and they didn't exactly feel the need to hide it as well

[pearl ferry]

hey what did he say fuck me for

[hallow hill]

The opinions of in-game characters aren't canon

[dusk mica]

It's funny that those quotes are even necessary. Honestly, guys... just knowing the first thing about fascism shows the Enclave is fascist. They're the definition of the thing

[harsh bolt]

... whaaaattt ???

[dense wharf]

when a city is besieged in the 1600s the cities being ransacked or burned to the ground with a large chunk of the population being put to the sword was a common enough occurrence

[dusk mica]

Is that dude trying to argue that the Enclave isn't fascist? wtf

[dense wharf]

the legion is a very medieval state as well with how they handle things

[late oyster]

I feel like deeming all of mankind beyond themselves to be freaks that need to be wiped out is kinda fascist, you'd think

[harsh bolt]

yeah

[hallow hill]

Yeah Three Dog is literally just a post-war radio host

[pale ferry]

Facism is not the enclave they are xenophobic.

[hallow hill]

This is a comical interpretation of fascism

"Fascism is just big evil when you hate the out-group"

[harsh bolt]

and ?

[dusk mica]

Like, so was shitting in a bucket and throwing it out the window. If anybody did that today or in the future, that person would be "uniquely" weird. "It was normal 500 year ago" is a bizarre argument

[dense wharf]

tbf the enclave are a bunch of fascists but its not because arcade gannon said so

[late oyster]

Yeah that's kind of a part of it. Pinning the blame on someone, redirecting the gaze of your nation outwards rather than inwards

[pale ferry]

Humans fall under mutants now since there dna isnt human dna anymore

[harsh bolt]

DC population know what facism is because they suffered under them

[pearl ferry]

i believe arcade

[hallow hill]

Civilizations of every ideology have done this

[dusk mica]

Are you legit trying to argue that the Enclave isn't fascist?

[hallow hill]

Like the Red Scare

[dense wharf]

im not calling the legion normal, i think you're entirely missing the point
im saying nothing they do is new under the sun, the legions evils are evils that have been committed by humanity since the earliest days

[harsh bolt]

his dad was in the Enclave sooo

[late oyster]

Yeah, it's a part of the fascist ideology. Not the only part, but it is an important part. Nazis did it, which is a pretty famous example

[hallow hill]

Globalistic conspiracies are often a marker of fascist regimes, but not an identifier

[random bramble]

That’s a straw man

[hallow hill]

Yes

[dusk mica]

In a modern context with modern knowledge it is definitely new under the sun, is my point. They're even more evil than the guys from the past when you look at it that way

[late oyster]

What are they then?

[dense wharf]

its still just the sole opinion of a character with a limited perspective, citing him is like citing my irl friend who swears giant cockroaches are real
you are better off looking through the actions and ideas of the enclave itself

[hallow hill]

The Enclave aren't even populists

[icy pagoda]

SUPER FASCISTS

[harsh bolt]

I did

[dusk mica]

The freaking eyebots spreading propaganda? I mean—

Ok, literally no point in trying to argue with you (•_•) you legit think the Enclave isn't fascist (´。＿。｀)

[hallow hill]

I would consider them elite eugenicist military technocrats

[late oyster]

That's kind of you

[dense wharf]

but the fallout world isnt a modern setting and isnt under a modern context, the legion is a lot closer to a medieval state in how it operates than something from the 20th or even 19th, 18th, and 17th centuries

[harsh bolt]

autocrats not technocrats

[dusk mica]

The two things aren't mutually exclusive ._.

[random bramble]

Yeah I can’t follow this guys logic

[hallow hill]

The eyebots primarily exist to weaken the rebellion

[icy pagoda]

I'm so glad that instead of talking about the things that we like and dislike about the show this chat is consistently larping as members of the enclave, talking about how badly you want house and cooper to fuck, or arguing about the definition of the word fascism

[dense wharf]

idk if your proof of the enclave is fascist is a single page labelling them fascist then its not exactly going to be a convincing argument

[hallow hill]

They want as many passive wastelanders as possible

[hallow hill]

Both

[random bramble]

And how is that not a factor of fascism

[dense wharf]

its an appeal to authority fallacy

[pearl ferry]

cooper and the two house polycule is canon (joking)

[hallow hill]

It's neutral to fascism

[dusk mica]

So, an emperor in Medieval times didn't have any access to modern science, social sciences, any kind of human knowledge that has been developed since. Sure, the average tribal from the Legion also hasn't, but the people in charge? They sure did.

[dense wharf]

i already said all of my detailed thoughts on the show, there's really just not that much more to say atp

[hallow hill]

But the Enclave uses propaganda to pacify the wasteland as a means of ultimately eliminating it rather than incorporating a national ethos

[harsh bolt]

ok

[dusk mica]

The fact that Caesar is actually relatively well-educated and still decides to run a society the way he does, arguably makes it worse compared to those of the old times that weren't aware of other modes of living

[dense wharf]

i dont see how that is relevant

[icy pagoda]

Also this is a reminder that some people will literally never budge on a thing they believe even if shown active proof that they are wrong. The enclave are fascists, the people claiming they are not are consistently shown to be insanely headstrong and refuse to budge. I suppose you can keep arguing at a brick wall, but at least be aware that it's never going to go anywhere.

[random bramble]

Was that not a common tactic by the Nazis themselves? Propagandize to the population of the people they would subjugate then exterminate?

[hallow hill]

The elitist part is, since the Enclave is against populism, a hallmark of fascism

[copper ginkgo]

Hello everyone

[pearl ferry]

this guy is clearly an enclave asskisser so there's no point in arguing

[hallow hill]

No, they primarily propagandized to the in-group, not the out-group

[pearl ferry]

hello mr president

[harsh bolt]

there all you want on the wiki

[copper ginkgo]

Asskisser and what are you

[late oyster]

Shudders to make me think what their IRL beliefs are like

[pearl ferry]

synth fucker, the ghoul apologist and cult lover, mr president

[dusk mica]

The argument sort of sounds like a "he's an ephebophile, okay?! It's different"

[harsh bolt]

hi Mr President 🦅

[dense wharf]

i just dont see how the legion is worse than irl fascists (which btw count the nazis amongst their ranks)

[hallow hill]

You can have your subjective moral debates over whether the Enclave is evil, but they're not fascists

Being 'evil' doesn't make a regime fascistic

[dense wharf]

you can call them an authoritarian, fascist and despotic state that commits many evils without making them literally worse than hitler

[hallow hill]

Huh, quite vague

[copper ginkgo]

Ugh those abominations aren't people anymore then a corpse is

[dusk mica]

Not really, you can make the connection if you try a bit harder

[copper ginkgo]

Hello Fellow American Citizen

[random bramble]

The state sanction rapes and sex slavery are hard to look past

[hallow hill]

The moralizing reductio

"No, your categorical distinction is just an excuse to separate two evils from one another"

[dense wharf]

and im not asking anyone to

[hallow hill]

Well yeah that's the point. They're objectively distinct pieces of data

[copper ginkgo]

Hello citizen how are you

[dusk mica]

Technically it is subjective that murdering babies is evil. That statement is true. But a person who goes around saying that is pretty sus lmao

[random bramble]

I mean Caesar conducted many genocides, like I don’t see how they are better

[hallow hill]

Okay, tell that to the thousands of clinics spread across the western world

[dusk mica]

What are you— OH

[random bramble]

lol early stage fetus aren’t babies

[late oyster]

Murdering babies helps no-one. It is explicitly harmful to the survival and wellbeing of the human race and the social fabric. Probably can't say it's objectively evil but it's pretty damn close

[dusk mica]

Oh, nevermind. LMAO AHAHAHA

[late oyster]

CALLED IT

[hallow hill]

You're completely missing the point

[dusk mica]

I literally meant babies. As in, babies. Who have come out of the womb. I did not mean to get there LOL

[random star]

Please stop making the enclave roles look bad

[random bramble]

The unthinking flesh potatoes are babies guys

[dusk mica]

I was just using an example of a cartoonishly evil thing. I might as well have said tying up women to train tracks LMAO

[hallow hill]

I'm not even against abortion, but the topic is clearly not scientifically rigorous

[pearl ferry]

guys i just want to talk about the house polycule

[late oyster]

Join the NCR. You can have that sweet, sweet sense of American national pride without looking like a Nazi

[hallow hill]

Neither side is really capable of making a strong case for/against abortion despite it being such a crucial topic

[random bramble]

Is the health of the mother not a valid case?

[carmine quiver]

well… if we follow the pattern of fascism in history… and just, y'know, fascism being fascism… doesn't take a genius to tell it's very bad.

[random star]

This is getting towards irl news channel

[dusk mica]

"It is a subjective point of view that throwing random people on the train tracks is evil" is technically true, but a sus thing to say. There you go.

[hallow hill]

Sure it's 'sus'

[hallow hill]

Ectopic pregnancies are incredibly rare regardless

[carmine quiver]

the Enclave is certainly very fascist… probably other things, but definitely that

[dense wharf]

i didnt say they were better, i just said they're not literally hitler
this whole argument started because someone in the chat were calling the legion worse than the irl fascists which i just find an absurd statement to make

[random star]

Does the ncr kill pepole who steal mail like old amceria laws did

[dusk mica]

And by the way, just to make the connection to the "ephebophile" clearer

[late oyster]

Physical and mental health of the mother. The fact that during the pregnancy the fetus is not yet a baby nor is it sentient until several months, it's just a clump of cells. Aborting to prevent bringing a child you cannot raise into the world rather than making everyone suffer. You know, not strong cases by any means

[dense wharf]

thats not getting into the fact that y'know, the legion isnt real, and the nazis were

[carmine quiver]

people were sentenced to death for stealing mail?? 😭

[hallow hill]

Just say the Enclave is evil. You don't need to smuggle in associative political buzzwords

[dense wharf]

and they still can be, mail is federally protected and tampering with them illegally gets you sent to federal prison

[random star]

Yes it was seen as stealing from the gorvment

[carmine quiver]

buddy you woke up on the wrong side of the bed today huh

[random star]

Better then the old death plenty tho

[hallow hill]

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Appeals to the mother are entirely unnecessary if it's no more than a clump of cells

[dense wharf]

the death penalty still exists tho

[hallow hill]

If it is more than a clump of cells, appeals to the mother are irrelevant

[random star]

True but atleast for mail its no longer the case

[carmine quiver]

okay. you ready? imma say it 👀 any second now

[dusk mica]

And to make the connection to the "ephebophilia" argument clear:

In the same way that obsessing over whether the Enclave meets a narrow academic definition of fascism ignores its authoritarian, genocidal, and oppressive nature, splitting hairs over terminology in sexual exploitation cases sanitizes abuse rather than addressing harm. Get it?

[random star]

Enclave are fascist and based on the nazis

[dense wharf]

i mean if a judge decides that whatever you did to the mail is worth killing you over then you can still be sent to death over the mail lol

probably never gonna happen in our lifetimes but it is still technically possible

[random bramble]

Health is more then that, birth is an inherent risk to the mother, physically, mentally, monetarily, and socially

[pearl ferry]

are you guys mad that the yes man ending is canon

[dusk mica]

Hope it's clear to you now, @hallow hill

[carmine quiver]

Colonel Autumn's uniform was based off of Nazi officer uniforms.

[shadow furnace]

does moldavier command the NCR?

[pearl ferry]

not anymore

[random star]

I just like enclave pa and plasma guns

[late oyster]

It's a collection of arguments. There does come a point where things get dicey, although prioritising a fully grown human being over an unborn baby who has never lived isn't an insane choice to make

[icy pagoda]

I also think it makes sense as the most likely canon ending, but I think the implication is that there was no actual NV ending chosen

[dusk mica]

Join the Zetan plasma guns supremacy

[icy pagoda]

Why are people talking about abortion in here

[shadow furnace]

yeah hahaha, but in S1, does she? or it was like a cult

[carmine quiver]

no. puzzle piece dude 🧩 is mad that the Enclave is fascist and evil and doesn't want to accept that - idk i just got here 😭

[dense wharf]

i think the show exists in a world where the courier stayed in his grave at goodsprings

[hallow hill]

Okay, so single women with children shouldn't be obligated to drive to work to provide for them since motor vehicle-related accidents are more common than pregnancy-related deaths

[dusk mica]

Man, there should be alien power armor. Imagine how badass it would fuckin' be. Zetan Power Armor. Holy shit. Why has nobody thought of this.

[pearl ferry]

i kinda zoned out when they started talking politics

[late oyster]

Might be a little cramped

[shadow furnace]

nooo don't say thay

[random star]

If they have a cool unifrom will glady join

[random bramble]

Yes single mothers should be supported

[pearl ferry]

there is some sort of 'fire mother' cult with her, but i think she is respected if not leading the ncr

[hallow hill]

I reject your arbitrary distinctions

[dense wharf]

how else would everything immediately go to shit lol

[dusk mica]

Should be on a textbook of the false equivalence fallacy hahahaha

[shadow furnace]

15 years

[pearl ferry]

everyones still alive so technically yeah, no ending

[hallow hill]

Why? The cause here is marginal

[random star]

Shes a group of survivors and sometimes when people are in harsh places they return to religion

[dense wharf]

the NCR loses to the legion by default, House doesnt get his securitrons and the Legion are deep into the Mojave killing each other and everyone else

[hallow hill]

Would you want her stripped of her parental rights if she used risk assessment to neglect her duties

Because objectively, driving is riskier than pregnancy

[carmine quiver]

hey man, you can like a faction without taking it so fucking personally. what the fuck are you even talking about rn

[pearl ferry]

the securitrons had their upgrades though i think

[shadow furnace]

yeah, i think moldavier commanded some kind of faction inside the Ncr, not the NCR

[random bramble]

In a world where medical science is perfect, no rapes happen, single mothers are supported by the state , mothers are not judged by their fellow citizens, birth control is perfect, and everyone wants to be a mother, yeah you can ban abortion

[dense wharf]

theyve stopped talking about fallout like 30 minutes ago

[shadow furnace]

pluribus? lol

[dense wharf]

i think u should just leave the two alone in their little play date

[pearl ferry]

can they go do it somewhere else

[late oyster]

I for one look forward to a future where pregnancies can take place in artificial wombs outside of the body

[dense wharf]

she is definitely not within the NCR hierarchy lol, probably just commands a small group of remnants

[hallow hill]

Yet we prioritize born babies who have never lived over fully grown humans all the time

[carmine quiver]

dog this a fallout server what

[elder fiber]

what

[dense wharf]

we dont actually see any signs of NCR high command still being around, just roaming bands of remnants

[carmine quiver]

WHY ARE YALL TALKING ABOUT BABIES

[pearl ferry]

i agree lets talk about the house polycule

[random bramble]

Bro thinks fetus are babies

[dusk mica]

Look up the definition of false equivalence

[round crow]

@hallow hill talk about ep 8

[hallow hill]

Yes, I'm aware of what a false analogy is

[icy pagoda]

MY GOAT

[random star]

Bro is bring irl politics flr some ressaon

[late oyster]

It's a constant balancing act. if we didn't look after babies we wouldn't make it very far as a species.

[shadow furnace]

yes, its different from the Ncr we saw in s2 e8

[round crow]

wanna talk politics , go #news_and_discussion

[late oyster]

I think this is my fault somehow

[hallow hill]

I can't post in there

[round crow]

read pins, the follow instructions

[random star]

Not youre fault bro went crazy on the enclave

[dusk mica]

Fallout is political as hell, I'm gonna be the devil's advocate here so as to not gonna hold @hallow hill personally responsible for that, it kinda happens. We're discussing a faction that is a satirical depiction of the US government, it's hard not to go there.

[shadow furnace]

Do you think that the ncr group we saw in E8 has thw chip inserted?

[pearl ferry]

yes yes we get it, long live the enclave

[carmine quiver]

tis a fine line indeed

[pearl ferry]

interesting theory, tell me more

[dusk mica]

But yeah, maybe let's steer the discussion back onto, y'know. The fun, post-apocalyptic fictional world and not about a very real problem that women face

[round crow]

in game politics is fine, but once you cross over, you move it to the relevant channel

[hallow hill]

I'll be in the other chat if anyone wants to move there

[late oyster]

I'm good

[hallow hill]

I can't really get my points across clearly because I'm getting dogpiled so I'm forced to multi-task

[shadow furnace]

Hank knew the Legion was coming and there would be a battle; he told Lucy. Perhaps he implanted the chip in the woman who commands the NCR, and also in members of the Legion; otherwise, it's strange that they all appeared at the same time.

[steady mauve]

do we have the NCR PA with all the rockets in 76?

[round crow]

ask #76_general

[shadow furnace]

Maybe its part of phase 3

[steady mauve]

too soon sounds like spoiler territory

[pearl ferry]

could just be tv plot, but we'll see

[shadow furnace]

yeah, fallout abuses of tv plot haha but i can deal with it

[dusk mica]

Isn't the NCR PA literally in the game, though? Oh, but yeah... the rocket thing, it's kind of a spoiler

[steady mauve]

yipp yipp, the rockets really make it special

[random star]

The new pa is pretty cool

Did they make a real one like they did with the t60s?

[icy pagoda]

Well the NCR power armor is just modified T60 suit

which is odd in and of itself but hey, I didn't write the show lol

[late oyster]

Brand recognition goes a long way

[steady mauve]

on one hand im kinda bothered that the "season finale" is a glorified trailer for s3
but im sure hyped for s3

[late oyster]

It's probably just some passion project of a Ranger, but who knows?

[random star]

I mean s1 was allso like that

[late oyster]

It's a very slow moving show and it does tend to drop everything on you in the last episode. It's weird like that

[steady mauve]

true true but atleast s1 had some stories ending like we got end of moldaver or whatshername.

[random star]

True

[steady mauve]

i can respect the writers for not stretching the show for 24 episodes. we would've absolutely watched it, but they made it so compact in just 8 episodes, amazing

[dense wharf]

the NCR does have power armor in the games so they could've easily just cobbled a functioning suit together

they already did it once with the Sierra Power Armor

[icy pagoda]

I think there is a middle ground here that would have been much better

[random star]

True but a few more esps whould help with pacing

[steady mauve]

totally agreed on both accounts. i'd love to watch more.

[dense wharf]

i disagree actually, 8 episodes is too constraining

there wasnt enough time to properly explore all the subplots and some of the payoff felt cheap or undeserved because of it

[late oyster]

In this era, I'd kill for longer seasons

[dense wharf]

the NCR and Legion storylines got like 5 minutes each and then they suddenly return in full force in episode 8, it felt very hamfisted

they could've used a few more scenes to tie it together

[pearl ferry]

i dont understand how tv shows which have little to no strength get 30 episode seasons but something like this gets a sprinkle

[steady mauve]

the ncr sniper had me jumping of off my chair yeah, wish there were more scenes like that

[dense wharf]

similarly the side plot with Norm and the Vault Dwellers just felt kinda confusing at times, because they took up a lot of screen time with not a lot of stuff happening

[icy pagoda]

They also mishandled a decent chunk of their time if they had no interest in wrapping it up. Like we could have had the time we got with the incest survivors with like, giving the viewer a reason to care about the NCR or make the Legion menacing in some way or a better understanding of how the enclave came to be. The largest complaint I have heard from non fallout game fans was that the factions just seem to be barely explained at all.

[pearl ferry]

there is so much they could do, so many storylines, people and places

[dense wharf]

norm was in the vault tec office by episode 2 and stayed there until episode 8

really could've done a lot more with them tbh

[random star]

Having more norm whould have been cool same with more legion/ncr

[icy pagoda]

I was so disappointed in how they handled Norm in episode 8. Could have had the exact same outcome but had him hack a terminal to let the radroaches out and lock himself inside a room with his new love interest. Instead we got the weirdest plot armor for two characters and Norm exclusively getting lucky to get out of a situation

[dense wharf]

NCR got two scenes explaining that the Mojave's been abandoned for a long ass time and then they suddenly return in full force by episode 8

dont get me wrong it was a very cool scene tho

[dense wharf]

agreed, i dont think his character had a lot of moments to shine

especially since he spends the majority of his time being tied up/getting beaten up by Bud's Buds

[icy pagoda]

Overall my biggest complaint about the show has nothing to do with lore or the setting or anything like that, it's just that so many things are wildly convenient. The store that lucy goes into to steal not having a living owner, Norm getting out of the radroach place, the one person that survives being the one person he likes, NCR armor specifically designed to fight deathclaws being available to go fight deathclaws, a random mutant showing up, saving a character, and then tossing him somewhere to meet up with other characters he has also never met, just that kind of stuff over and over.

An asspull or two can work wonders for a show, and asspull or 12 can be a very large detriment

[lusty fiber]

They needed at least ten episodes. And well, I'll let this Tumblr post explain the rest: https://www.tumblr.com/goldenrulemotherfucker/807767322688471040/my-favorite-parts-of-s2-were-where-lucy-learned?source=share

💛go to therapy💛

My favorite parts of S2 were where Lucy learned how Cooper knew her father & their shared history with Vault Tech, a deeply evil company, as a direct payoff for this moment in the S1 finale........ OH WAIT 🙄

S2 had some cool moments, but imo it was largely rushed/underwhelming and lacked the depth of S1. But most of all, I'm just baffled that Lucy still knows NONE of this??? I'm honestly not sure I even understand the point of them traveling together for multiple episodes if it was going to be 90% small talk while neither learned anything surprising/substantial about the other. So much wasted potential.

I personally liked their brief encounter in the finale, but the lack of dialogue made it feel like the writers were _deliberately avoiding _​having her learn his identity for some reason. (?????)

-# #fallout tv critical #fallout s2 #ghoulcy #interested in S3 but not super enthused tbh

Tumblr · Feb 6, 2026, 3:02 AM

[lusty fiber]

For some reason I'd have liked it more if say, it was Lucy who saved Cooper from his impalement. I'm reading a fic about that premise, actually: https://archiveofourown.org/chapters/206742911

[icy pagoda]

I also think that would have been better, and the mutant still could have potentially worked if it was a returning character who stuck around to actually help a bit or a character from New Vegas who The Ghoul had previously met that we didn't know about (Raul or Arcade Gannon come to mind)

[lusty fiber]

They would've made better fodder for Lucy's Buffout rampage than the Kings did.

I would assume just Lucy. Lucy likely has no interest in being part of a faction. Sure, she might try to go through the motions of what's expected in a relationship with Maximus, what's expected of helping the NCR, but her "matching jackets" remark in episode 4 tells us what she thinks of them. It's more likely that House recruits her and sends her to go after the Enclave (and by extension Cooper), and this is visually demonstrated by her switching back to her Vault 33 jumpsuit.

[steady mauve]

yeah max is totally joining if not leading NCR now

with that 1v10 deathclaw showdown everyone will think he's NCR material

[dense wharf]

nah, the show is clearly building up the legion as a serious threat

even the ghoul was reluctant to mess with them

having lucy kill random legionnaires kinda undermines that point

[lusty fiber]

I doubt it. I feel like there's an imbalance in this relationship as Lucy was growing closer to the Ghoul, and at no point in this season had she even so much as mentioned Maximus. Not to mention Maximus will be part of a faction that she dismissed as a bunch of "matching jackets" back in episode 4. And she's also been changed somewhat by her experiences.

I can see Lucy trying to go through the motions of a relationship with Maximus, but feeling empty inside without the Ghoul around to bounce off of. And then some sort of conflict happens that results in her going off on her own.

[copper ginkgo]

Not necessarily

[copper ginkgo]

Please don't be a ghoulcy

[late oyster]

Ghoulcy goes against Coop's whole motivation

[steady mauve]

i mean it just makes sense to me, he's missing a home, NCR needs a hero or a mascot in these dire times, they compliment each other. it definitely wouldnt be surprising if max turns it down to be with lucy more.

[copper ginkgo]

Exactly

[copper ginkgo]

He's probably gonna get recruited by Mister House both him and Lucy

[steady mauve]

oooh now that you say that, would be fun if lucy accepts mr house's proposal, and he joins NCR, and their paths take them different directions again!

[lusty fiber]

No it doesn't. Sure, he may be looking for his family, but I imagine that he's not going to get the happy reunion he's expecting because of how he's been changed and by how Barb and Janey have been changed by working with the Enclave.

After that, he's going to need a new purpose to keep on going.

[steady mauve]

id assume the only reason he would want to stray from lucy now is to find cure for thaddeus

[copper ginkgo]

Okay but lemme ask a simple question why does he care about his FAMILY

[shadow saddle]

I never said I was an expert, that's why I point to someone who is

[late oyster]

I don't think the kind of person to keep searching for his family for over 200 years is the kind to get over them just like that 🫰

[shadow saddle]

Please point to what other historians wrote that contradict the legion being at the very least semi/para fascist

[copper ginkgo]

No there mostly likely going to both join, just because you got a cool cameo doesn't means anything especially since the Legion is gonna slime them

[shadow saddle]

"binary is when 14 things" here I was thinking it's 2

[copper ginkgo]

Keep preaching

[steady mauve]

i mean i can say the opposite, just cause legion has one leader now instead of 2 doesnt mean they are stronger now

[copper ginkgo]

There are more of the Legion then your little battalion of NCR troops who have been cut off for decades

[copper ginkgo]

But the way Hank and the show has frame it there gonna get absolutely slimed in new Vegas

[steady mauve]

if i know bethesda, then anything that seems "obvious" will never happen

[obtuse niche]

Because he's still a family man type guy

[copper ginkgo]

And he loves his family

[copper ginkgo]

There will be consequences for what lucy did

[obtuse niche]

We don't know the approximate scale of the legion forces at this point do we

[copper ginkgo]

Shady Sands already got bombed

[copper ginkgo]

We have a pretty good estimate

[obtuse niche]

??

[novel pulsar]

I support mr house

[copper ginkgo]

My guy you can tell there's way more Legion

Even tho we don't have a number

[obtuse niche]

I'm asking for how the legion is scale wise in a vacuum

[novel pulsar]

Was that supppse to be the same legion base as they had in game?

[shadow saddle]

"Fascism became an all-purpose term because one can eliminate from a fascist regime one or more features, and it will still be recognizable as fascist. Take away imperialism from fascism and you still have Franco and Salazar. Take away colonialism and you still have the Balkan fascism of the Ustashes. Add to the Italian fascism a radical anti-capitalism (which never much fascinated Mussolini) and you have Ezra Pound. Add a cult of Celtic mythology and the Grail mysticism (completely alien to official fascism) and you have one of the most respected fascist gurus, Julius Evola.
But in spite of this fuzziness, I think it is possible to outline a list of features that are typical of what I would like to call Ur-Fascism, or Eternal Fascism. These features cannot be organized into a system; many of them contradict each other, and are also typical of other kinds of despotism or fanaticism. But it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it."

[lusty fiber]

Well, here's the thing:

1. It's a common narrative beat in fiction for the protagonist to get what they want only to find that it no longer fits, because they and/or the world has changed since the story began. And I imagine Lucy being right about Janey not liking what Cooper's become (but it won't be because of the kind of person he's become, but because of him being a ghoul, which goes against the Enclave's beliefs about impurity). Plus I don't trust Barb at all (remember that even if she was being coerced to say those specific things at the meeting, she's still morally flexible since she approved of many of the insidious Vault experiments).

2. They've created so many specific narrative parallels between Lucy and the Ghoul that are too numerous to count.

[obtuse niche]

It seems like the legion has also shrunk a fair bit if any old slave is being processed by the legate and Caesar

[shadow saddle]

Not sure, they didn't have to take a boat

[copper ginkgo]

I'm saying specifically

The Rome Alone Legion

Will slime

The tiny ah cut off NCR battalion

In New Vegas and proceed to start to outcompete the NCR

[steady mauve]

i dont think so

[shadow saddle]

You could say he made us both... laugh and cry

[copper ginkgo]

Cope not even the actors agree with you just stop

[obtuse niche]

Their numbers don't seem astronomically one sided even if the legion probably has more direct manpower right now

[lusty fiber]

Show me where they say this.

[copper ginkgo]

There are several interviews where Walton and Ella are asked and Ella especially thinks people like yall need therapy

[obtuse niche]

People who think the ghoul is not gonna have a happy ending?

[steady mauve]

source: trust me bro

[copper ginkgo]

There getting slimed

[copper ginkgo]

I'll get a link if you really want one

[obtuse niche]

They have at least 3 rangers so Rome alone better watch his back

[copper ginkgo]

Ugh cope Hank basically confirmed they gettin slimed

[lusty fiber]

1. Ella Purnell probably didn't seriously mean that.

2. If anything, she was probably expressing annoyance at the interviewer for asking a rather inappropriate question. Separation of church and state when it comes to fandom is supposed to be a thing.

[obtuse niche]

I don't think Hank knew about the NCR guys seeing as their arrival basically came out of nowhere

[copper ginkgo]

Yes she did

[steady mauve]

rome alone made me chuckle, good one bro
but yeah i totally see legion having infights rather than "being the all powerful army to destroy everything" pov

[copper ginkgo]

@lusty fiber I WILL FIND U THE CLIP BRUH

[obtuse niche]

The NCR people who have mentioned it also seem to think they're winning somehow which is a scary thought

[obtuse niche]

Yeah it seems very likely the legion across Arizona has also fractured if the Mojave force was in a civil war

[steady mauve]

and BoS isnt done yet either, they want a piece of that tech too, they may come as well

[obtuse niche]

The grand canyon BoS needs to win everything

Grand canyon BoS are my goats

[shadow saddle]

The BoS should be dissolved completely, by force if necessary

[lusty fiber]

Again, she was probably joking. And considering what House was saying to Cooper about him still living in a world of fiction, yeah, Cooper isn't going to get the family reunion that he's looking for.

[steady mauve]

what region is the team going next tho? they arent staying in vegas are they?

[shadow saddle]

And that's coming from Jinx lol

[obtuse niche]

Ghoul seems to be off to Colorado, Lucy and co are still in Vegas last we saw of them

Norm and friend we'll have to wait and see

[copper ginkgo]

During press for Fallout, Purnell was asked about fans wanting Lucy to end up in a romantic relationship with The Ghoul. She shot down that idea pretty clearly, calling it something fans need to “let go” and jokingly saying “you guys need therapy” for insisting on the ship. She emphasized that Lucy can’t “fix” or “save” him in that way.

GamesRadar is the source u can find the video

so LET IT GO WEIRDO

[obtuse niche]

-# dead money reference

[icy pagoda]

A ghoul x lucy relationship is such a dumb idea lol

[steady mauve]

so lucy being the goody two shoes may follow ghoul cause she wants to help him out? and wherever lucy goes max will follow?

[obtuse niche]

I don't think Lucy is following the ghoul to Colorado

[steady mauve]

well she has no reason left to stay either unless she gets the call from norm

[obtuse niche]

We'll have to wait and see if/how they regroup

[late oyster]

Well she's a girl and he's a boy...

[obtuse niche]

Legion moving in, local area still quite unstable
Doubt they'll leave (at least until the legion is handled)

[steady mauve]

her only driving force is no-more, unless she gets a wind of norm's situation

[steady mauve]

fair point

im still wondering what "war" mr ron perlman was talking about

[copper ginkgo]

Ye

[icy pagoda]

[obtuse niche]

Either they're gearing up to interfere with the legion or they're gonna try to hit the enclave

[steady mauve]

the show reviving enclave was huge ngl. until now enclave has just been side-quests, an after thought, and now they are like "oh no they are well and alive" had me dropping my jaw.

[copper ginkgo]

And also it's impure

She's a Human an American citizen

He's a filthy Zombie

[obtuse niche]

They were around in season 1

Just hope they actually care to make them interesting this time usually there's nothing worth mentioning when the enclave is an antagonist

[steady mauve]

ai takeover

[lusty fiber]

It's hardly dumb. At this point, there's just not much foundation for Lucy and Maximus to have a stable relationship. Sure, his moral values align similarly to her own: "save others even when it puts you in danger," "question authority," "acknowledge that you'll sometimes have to resort to violence".

But Maximus is now with the NCR, and again, they're a bunch of "matching jackets" (so not too different from Vault dwellers). And while that faction may not engage in any of the awful things the Legion does, their expansionist tendencies might be something Lucy's not okay with.

[lusty fiber]

It's not impure at all. Have you seriously not played a Sole Survivor who romanced John Hancock? Or recruited a ghoul prostitute during "Wang Dang Atomic Tango"?

[obtuse niche]

Saying that like maximus swore an oath to California during the deathclaw scene or something

[steady mauve]

i mean technically speaking NCR used to be vault dwellers too. they just came out of a vault, settled at shady sands and made NCR

[lusty fiber]

Well sure. They have their origins from a vault, but those origins are also pretty far behind them.

[steady mauve]

very true

[copper ginkgo]

You communist

I'm Enclave those things aren't citizens there abominations

That will be taken out

Withe FEV

[harsh bolt]

not mind control ?

[steady mauve]

https://tenor.com/view/the-road-to-el-dorado-both-both-is-good-gif-8304204

[obtuse niche]

In any case Lucy and maximus is very obviously and blatantly where the story is going, I imagine season 3 will probably put more emphasis on them interacting

[late oyster]

Enclave roleplay is so cringeworthy, man. You don't need to do this to yourself

[copper ginkgo]

NCR wouldn't get it you try to be uss so bad but you miss the mark

[copper ginkgo]

Well yes but the main thing is FEV

[harsh bolt]

ok ok

[obtuse niche]

Ulysses would have steam coming out of his ears if he knew about the enclave

[harsh bolt]

Nah enclave roleplay is goated

[late oyster]

It stinks

[harsh bolt]

what are you talking about

[solid grail]

They basically copied his whole flow word for word and bar for bar.

[icy pagoda]

Are we just ignoring the fact that the entire plotline of the ghoul is how he has spent 200 years looking for his wife and child?

[sacred idol]

Not this shit again

[pastel dock]

Pretty much this.
And besides: the Enclave Remnants will lose. As The Fallout Lore Intended.

[harsh bolt]

bruhh bro what

[lusty fiber]

But again, I just don't think it's a relationship that'll be on very stable ground. Lucy probably wants to know more about the Enclave and learn more about these people her dad worked for. And I can see House taking advantage of Lucy's desire to know more to get her to work for him. And that could create a rift between her and Maximus because the NCR aren't exactly big fans of House (she could essentially end up like a House-aligned Courier, who helps the NCR defeat the Legion at the Second Battle of Hoover Dam before betraying them).

[solid grail]

Heck, I’m half inclined to think Hank or at least the Enclave had a hand in blowing up the Divide by posing as NCR to hand that package over to the Courier. Ready made way to fuck with the NCR and drag out the war with the Legion for as long as possible.

[random bramble]

That’s definitely plausible

[lusty fiber]

No one's ignoring that. It's just that like House said, Cooper still lives in a fantasy, and he's going to probably get a rude awakening when he finds them.

[lusty fiber]

The package DID come from Navarro, after all, the Enclave's former base that got taken down by the NCR.

[copper ginkgo]

Brotherhood

[obtuse niche]

This is a lot of 'could' and 'maybe' which would be taking the show in a very different direction from how the show has actually gone

[harsh bolt]

civil war simulator

[solid grail]

And the fact something like that just so happened to be in Navarro of all places does feel a little suspicious.

[obtuse niche]

Maximus is, again, at most loosely affiliated to the NCR

[harsh bolt]

he is a NCR citizen so yes

[obtuse niche]

Don't see why Lucy would give much of a fuck about house (or vice versa given house is avoiding contact based off that later scene)

[obtuse niche]

So is Lucy 🤷

Being a citizen of the NCR formally doesn't mean you're out in uniform marching on the legion

[harsh bolt]

What ?

[steady mauve]

what if house has picked up norm's distress call and baits lucy with that to work for him

[novel spade]

Wow it actually great lore wth

[obtuse niche]

"your brother in California is in trouble therefore you should stay here and work for me"

[harsh bolt]

Lucy is a vault dweller not a NCR citizen, Maximus was born in Shady Sands not Lucy

[novel spade]

enclave is sneaking nuking other factions lol

[obtuse niche]

Lucy was certainly an NCR citizen on account of her mother

[lusty fiber]

I have to expect that Cooper's reunion with Barb and Janey will likely play out a lot like Lucy's reunion with her dad. She and Janey will probably try to do everything to sway Cooper to the Enclave's cause. They'll take advantage of the fact that Cooper was a patriot, and the fact that the Enclave consider themselves the heirs to the American government.

But there's a nagging voice in his head that sounds an awful lot like Lucy's that thinks something's off about the whole thing. Whatever it is, it ends in him potentially having to be rescued by Lucy (who tracked him down with House's help).

[novel spade]

the fact that the legion is yet to be nuked means they probably consider them a joke not worth worrying about

[steady mauve]

not necessarily, house doesnt need anyone in vegas anymore now that he has power again, but he would absolutely need legs to reach elsewhere to get to the bottom of enclave, thats where lucy comes in

[harsh bolt]

her Mother was a vault dweller too but I dont think they got the citizenship

[copper ginkgo]

Yess indeed but Micro chips will erase that

[obtuse niche]

Unless that place in California he'd have no leverage

[harsh bolt]

yeah

[obtuse niche]

Her mother fled topside and got involved with the NCR

[steady mauve]

right theres so much uncertainity its amazing!

[solid grail]

To be fair, there's not many runaway wives of Vault-Tec gofers who'd scurry over to Flagstaff with the kids.

[outer dock]

Is there anyone who isn't active in Vegas? Because Jesus Christ, dude

[obtuse niche]

Uhh the kings

[harsh bolt]

yeah idk

[obtuse niche]

[steady mauve]

railroad and institute?

[harsh bolt]

institute

[novel spade]

Nah I doubt it, vault dwellers are probably ncr citizen by default because some vaults are locked up tight years after the NCR is formed. There's no reason to deny citizenship to a vault in their territory. In fact, doing the opposite would undermine their claim to sovereignty

[obtuse niche]

The enclave also isn't really active in vegas it's just Hank

[harsh bolt]

yeah ok

[solid grail]

Assuming that NCR detachment isn't secretly chipped, of course.

[harsh bolt]

in the south of California and Nevada/Arizona in general

[obtuse niche]

Even then the chips are an experiment, not sleeper agents

It's doubtful the enclave is really flexing whatever influence it might have right now

[steady mauve]

didnt hank only now figured out how to actually use the chips and made them micro? its not an old successful experiemnt?

[novel spade]

Todd really hired an actual writer with an acclaimed story about synth to redo fallout 4 huh

[solid grail]

Nah, just to keep us all yapping and paranoid about whether x character is either chipped or secretly an Enclave double agent.

[obtuse niche]

Lucy knows to look for the scar, so

[novel spade]

Isn't the newer version even smaller and implied to leave no scars?

[obtuse niche]

It's just the same chip

[lusty fiber]

I think House might even like Lucy's intellect. He can have intellectual debates with someone who might be able to match him.

[harsh bolt]

Enclave is everywere now

[obtuse niche]

Hank is the only new version we've seen so it's safe to assume it's no different

[solid grail]

And at least House wouldn't probably snap at Lucy like the Ghoul would've.

[novel spade]

Serously the show is actually better written than the game what the hell, enclave plot is actually peak

[steady mauve]

fair point i just have a gut feeling that they wont keep the show in vegas anymore. ghoul is pretty much leading the main story so the story will go to wherever he goes, i feel like. i could be entirely wrong.

[harsh bolt]

yeah

[obtuse niche]

That's because any of the games involving the enclave have suboptimal main stories for some reason

[novel spade]

I hope the could get these writers to write for Fallout 5 now that they have microsoft's gazillion budget

[obtuse niche]

I imagine we won't be leaving Vegas for at least a bit of season 3, given that there are still loose ends

[copper ginkgo]

I enjoy this logo too

[solid grail]

Eh, I just hope the 'oh noes, who's a supa secret Enclave agent' stuff is limited. Would rather not have the hype moment of that NCR bunch showing up in S2 be undercut in S3 by half their ranks being chipped or some variant of Enclave.

[novel spade]

I predict an NCR-aligned house. House isn't stupid to not allied with the most reasonable faction now that he's on the enclave's radar

[obtuse niche]

Then again the NCR isn't much of a faction right now

[harsh bolt]

its beautiful

[solid grail]

And even back during NV, House was cool with the NCR outside of them squatting on his land. Guy even gave very fair prices for electricity and water in his Order of Withdrawal.

[copper ginkgo]

It could be Legion especially since NCR WILL GET SLIMED

[novel spade]

House certainly doesn't have enough manpower atm to stand alone and he despites the legion lol

[obtuse niche]

Most likely they'll be frenemies as they were in NV

[solid grail]

Besides, with the Enclave running about now, wouldn't it be in House's best interest to play nice with the NCR? They both have a vested interest in stomping on them, after all.

[obtuse niche]

And really as the NCR is when dealing with any private interest group

[steady mauve]

now whats phase 2

[obtuse niche]

Probably involves FEV but really nobody knows

[copper ginkgo]

Microchips, FEV or something REDACTED

[solid grail]

And what was phase 1? Just their OG plans from Fallout 2 and 3?

[obtuse niche]

No

[steady mauve]

enclave has a tendency of being overpowered by their own AI
and house is also pretty much an AI now
so we getting AI vs AI in season 3 maybe?

[novel spade]

Yup, and historicallly if anyone knows how to defeat the enclave it's the NCR

[obtuse niche]

Phase 1 is the status quo state of the tri vaults

[novel spade]

Literally fighting the enclave at its strongest

[obtuse niche]

Phase 2 is something involving the tri vaults, we don't know what

[steady mauve]

well they did hint it hard that enclave made deathclaws. i wouldnt be surprised if cooper's daughter ended up being a super mutant thanks to FEV

[solid grail]

Though also maybe the NCR needs one of those iterant murderhobos to get the ball rolling; would the NCR have really been able to pull up on Navarro with the Brotherhood if the Chosen One didn't blow up the Oil Rig?

[copper ginkgo]

They did

[harsh bolt]

spreading FEV in the air

[obtuse niche]

Unlikely

[steady mauve]

omg are we getting nightkins?!

[novel spade]

They get three this times

[obtuse niche]

It's specific to the tri vault program, not general enclave agenda

[harsh bolt]

that would be cool

[steady mauve]

right?

that could totally be what she meant by phase 2. new super mutants

[novel spade]

All three protagonists are scarily competent at killing stuff, people included

[solid grail]

Though Lucy and Maximus still could do with a bit of leveling up.

[abstract scarab]

Lucy needs to grind shelves for a few hours smh

[steady mauve]

lucy just needs enough drugs in her system to unlock her VATS

[solid grail]

And some way of generating aura.

[abstract scarab]

She needs a hat tbh

[novel spade]

cant beat the ghoul though, he's an actor prewar

[solid grail]

And no, that doesn't mean her wearing a First Recon beret for the extra crit chance.

[astral cipher]

Not even a week or two attitudes likes yours would have made us out to be coping
Guess who are the people coping now

https://tenor.com/view/well-well-well-how-the-turntables-michael-scott-the-office-caught-gif-10490408

[solid grail]

I mean, a dozen or so NCR troopers and a few Vet Rangers ain't exactly much, unless there was more offscreen entering the city elsewhere like from Westside.

[ionic loom]

the ncr is here that's good enough for me

[elder fiber]

we didn't hear about any government, cities or politicians

[blissful goblet]

yo yo

[trail cove]

A battalion is worth between 300-1,000 troops, so....

[compact quail]

1. I don't think and can't really see how, after being stranded in their outpost for 20 freaking years, that NCR lady would suddenly have the comms and notion ( Which for some reason hasn't existed before ) to contact some distant 'NCR city' to send a platoon on such a short notice, and for that request to be granted in order to do... what exactly? Protect freeside from Deathclaws? The response time for that would be crazy.

To counter the Legion? More reasonable because they've been watching them for quite a long time, but only reasonable in a vacuum if you don't think about it too much - Any alleged 'surviving NCR' have been sitting on their ass for 20 fucking years not sending a single scout back to Vegas or even Shady Sands area knowing full well everything has gone to shit and rogue factions abound. But that lady calls them up and they're like "Oops we forgot about that"?

2. If it did go down like the batshit insane scenario outlined above, it would probably be commanded by someone from that city other than her who has occupied a spot in the new hierarchy after 20 years passed, as it is, seems pretty clear this is an intiative spearheaded by herself with some wandering veterans and loyalists she managed to scrounge up

3. I already discussed this to death so I don't want to dwell on it so much, but it goes against the spirit of the show. "Big Daddy NCR Cavalry with a huge government, president and existing army sitting around over 10 different NCR cities waiting to solve everybody's problems" doesn't fit in with the ragtag underdog role of the protagonists and takes away from the watershed moment of seeing what symbolized the NCR torn down by Vault-Tect and NCR collapsing as a faction in the aftermath, with the burden on good people of the wasteland to pick up the fight again

[trail cove]

Holy yap, this is gonna take a while to take apart

[astral cipher]

Woah ok that's a big boy
I mean I was just goofing around I'm not fully discarting the idea of this just being yet another remnant situation
But what I will say though is that this could be a better remnant situation than just making them Minutemen or you know
Just full on actual NCR, which honestly I don't see why that should that far out either????

[compact quail]

Full-on actual NCR does nothing but fan service for NCR gamer diehards while completely trampling over every single emotion and motif that the show has tried to instill in viewers since Season 1, in addition to being highly unrealistic because we don't see so much as a single NCR scout anywhere except a tiny encampment of 3 people near Vegas. This wouldn't be the case if the 'Full NCR' with a massive command structure and president was still around. Hell, the entire Shady Sands crater would be crawling with NCR recovery teams trying to reclaim lost heritage artifacts or erecting a memorial and so on.

Minutemen-scale remnants is possible

[astral cipher]

Ok with the first point but with those next ones I really don't understand why that type of scouting can't have happened off-screen?
We could also be having the NCR problem of them having handle something else and therefore having to pull out or just compromise on other areas it has happened before

Idk about you but it definitely would make sense that they would really be looking to consolidate their hold in the heartland and handle the type of rioting/pandemonium/anarchy that the streets of NCR cities would have after such an attack before focusing on the larger picture of foreign intervention

[compact quail]

The show's episodes span at least a few months and cover a large tract of land between California and Vegas, including major highways, landmarks, and the Shady Sands crater itself. None of the show's characters meet a single NCR active duty member anywhere, not even once. The Ghoul only pays a visit to a former Ranger who has clearly retired to become a family man, because, you know... the NCR is basically a fallen faction at this point.

This is like Washington DC getting nuked and somehow remaining empty in the next 20 years while the remainder of America is intact, even without radiation risk

[compact quail]

It would make even a lot more sense that the anarchy got out of their control after their entire government and economic/scientific center got obliterated in one fell swoop. And that's assuming, now that we know Hank is Enclave and the Enclave are still around too, that they didn't topple other NCR strongholds off-screen too to make sure they stay dead.

Hank/Enclave nuked Shady Sands because they didn't want a civilization other than theirs thriving on the surface. The Enclave knows about not just every single NCR city but probably every NCR urinal in the Wasteland too. The Enclave apparently still has the power to one-tap the NCR's capital with comically laughable ease with a nuke strapped to a damn wagon for extra trolling.

NCR is broken. If they weren't broken organically then Enclave would just finish the job anyway

[blissful goblet]

I still dont like the shady sands 2277 retcon man

[compact quail]

I don't like it either but taking away the 'hope' of the wasteland, by more or less eradicating the umbrella of the NCR, so that the show's protagonists can become that new hope, was why the showrunners did it

Makes no sense to do it and then go "Oh btw the full NCR just fucked off somewhere else'"

[astral cipher]

The NCR has been portrayed as nothing but the "hope of the wasteland" what are you on about

[blissful goblet]

Yeah but personally I dont like it. Fallout is meant to be a post post apocalypse. As much as I am a huge legion fan, I also love the ncr a lot and I wish they had been treated better

[random bramble]

They confirmed that the nuke didn’t happen in 2277 btw and nothing in the show suggested it had

[astral cipher]

The Fall seems to be implicated to be a different event

[blissful goblet]

Actually not true. Ncr soldiers the ghoul talked to said they didnt get any reinforcements in 19 years. The ghoul implied shady sands fell 20 years ago

[astral cipher]

Could have been implicated in better way but that is kinda the implication

[compact quail]

They are the indisputable 'Lesser Evil' if not 'Good' faction of the game unless you think one person can do a better job somehow with Yes Man and they are the defeated but still optimistic Good Guys of the show too

[surreal sierra]

Did everyone forget about the fact that Hank kidnapped and chipped the old NCR guy? And that the old NCR lady wasn't shown/mentioned until Episode 8?

There's a real possibility that the NCR "reinforcements" are just chipped wastelanders.

[blissful goblet]

It seems to me theyre running with 2277 anyway

"Shady sands, you do know that was 20 years ago right?"

[random bramble]

No they didn’t

[blissful goblet]

Yes they did. https://youtu.be/bRyuFGWK8C4?si=NqNkT66dm4f-6Ubk

[compact quail]

Could be, although maybe that's just another plothole, maybe Hank only nabbed that one guy just like he only kidnapped one Legionnaire... somehow.

I guess Hank and Chickenfucker just lurk in the bushes for solitary soldiers who go out to pee at night

[astral cipher]

It could be but their uniforms seemed too well-kempt

[random bramble]

The fall isn’t the nuke

[blissful goblet]

Yes it was

[compact quail]

Well tbh Hank kidnapped 3 legionnaires, not 1

[surreal sierra]

How is that a plot hole?

[compact quail]

Which I also don't know how, again, seems like he just lurks in bushes for random patrols

[surreal sierra]

Too well-kempt for what exactly?

[compact quail]

Not a plothole, just a bit ridicolous I suppose

[astral cipher]

It could have been way back when
However they did release that one script that basically tells Maximus' age in the flashbacks

[blissful goblet]

I just find it hard to believe it wasnt 2277 after the ghoul implied shady sands got destroyed 20 years ago

[copper ginkgo]

Hello American Citizens

[surreal sierra]

Doesn't seem ridiculous to me.

[novel spade]

That script also paints lucy in a different light lol, she's older than maximus by 5-6 years in age

[compact quail]

I mean NCR lady did mention they've been waiting for some sort of platoon to come back for 20 years, and they managed to survive in a bunch of desert tents with only 3 people, still in the uniforms, undetected by Legion or Raiders.... somehow, so I guess that platoon she was talking about was also just kicking rocks in the desert for 20 years and conveniently reunited with them now.

[compact quail]

God bless you, Sir.

[elder fiber]

not sure what that platoon did for 20 years, or who was paying them

[astral cipher]

Well-kempt as in they don't seem any broken, too dirty, etc to have been scavanged
Idk if I'm clear to be honest

[surreal sierra]

Waiting for a platoon to come back from where?

[random bramble]

If the nuke was 20 years ago how was Maximus like 7 when it happened?

[compact quail]

From some desert sector a few dozen miles off

[elder fiber]

don't make sense

[novel spade]

And there's the constraint of tv show

[compact quail]

It doesn't make sense for 3 geriatric NCR vets to survive unharmed in a few tents on a barrent hillside without even taking off their uniforms but here we are

[surreal sierra]

I know what well-kempt means, I wanna know your reasoning. Are you saying that they're too well-kempt to have been scavenged?

[novel spade]

You don't get lore dump in tv shows because 1. it's bad directing and 2. the show is expensive af, you can't fit everything in it

[astral cipher]

Yeah
Granted they could have been in some locker or something or they could have been cleaned
Although they also seem made to their size oddly enough

[compact quail]

The only thing that stays consistent is that the NCR remnants are a broken mess that was only just now rallied up into a tiny fighting force by NCR lady

[elder fiber]

erm no, hes dead

[steady mauve]

when enclave is involved, no one is really dead as long as their brain can be removed from their body

[compact quail]

Honestly the more I think about it the more i realize how overpowered the Enclave's reach has gotten despite being a shadow of their former selves in a compound. They nuked Shady Sands on a whim, steered dozens of Deathclaws into Vegas and bypasses all the Securitrons and armed families... somehow, totally obliterating Vegas in the process.

The only reason they wouldn't take out the other NCR cities is because they weren't worth the effort and resources since they were already plunging into desolation of their own accord

[steady mauve]

for the poor congress woman's case, they didnt even remove the brain, they just took the head

[trail cove]

How do I put this without sounding like a strawman.

Are you implying you prefer the NCR "collapsing" from the destruction of a single city, and disconnected stragglers who are dumb enough to believe they're winning the war?

[astral cipher]

Oh by the way
Their weaponry
It is not as standard as before but it definitely sure does seem not the weaponry of your average wastelander
They seem like factory-produced and military-cared weapons to me!

[surreal sierra]

How does that disprove that they're chipped Hank employees?

The vault Hank is in doesn't seem to have a shortage of fresh clothes. If the NCR "reinforcements" are part of the experiment Hank (and by extension, Vault-Tec/Enclave) is conducting on the surface, their clothes being fresh would make sense. As they would have a multitude of each factions armour/clothes so they can perform experiments.

[compact quail]

It's not so much as a 'single city' the way you conceive of it in modernity because the NCR is still very much a hodge-podge confederation of scrappy Wasteland societies, some of which were already only begrudingly subservient to centralize rule in the first place. They took out the whole government structure and center of the civilization instantly, the panic, shortages, and power struggles would've been insane

[astral cipher]

The Hub voted to join NCR

Same with the founding states
With the other territories you could be right though but it depends on the case so there is that

[compact quail]

Some communities, or rather their leaders voted to join. Others didn't and even others had factions that opposed it even if the ruling faciton agreed

[astral cipher]

Valid

[compact quail]

Instant death of most NCR government officials and capital at the hands of a terrifying foe that clearly doesn't like the NCR and you can't even see was probably a huge boost to everyone who wanted to ditch the NCR

[copper ginkgo]

Thank you, citizen. May your loyalty to the United States remain steadfast, and may our nation endure in the face of adversity

[compact quail]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdG0Zo5v4ak

He's just like me for real for real.

[marsh loom]

Shame we basically have to blow him up

[solid grail]

Wonder if we'll get someone like him in the show who unironically stans the Enclave.

[steady mauve]

isnt that hank?

i mean he sent a chipped dude to shady sands to nuke it on enclave's behalf, couldnt get bigger stan than that right?

[solid grail]

I mean some Wastelander like Nathan Vargas.

[steady mauve]

ah. did any non pre-war person even mentioned enclave in the show?

[grizzled garden]

nevermind

[solid grail]

I think Quintus brought up that Wilzig was from the Enclave back in S1.

[grizzled garden]

yeah he did

[steady mauve]

[grizzled garden]

ma june and ron perlman's character

[mystic plaza]

Yeah he was relaying the information the Commonwealth gave him.

[steady mauve]

oh yeah!

[viscid fog]

"the enclave is real?"

The fact wilzig was a member of the enclave was made public knowledge by whoever put the bounty on him

[grizzled garden]

the enclave

[sacred idol]

I love debating his ass not even 30 minutes after leaving the vault

[solid grail]

Though the jury's out on whether the Enclave still exploited Wilzig's escape to their advantage even if losing cold fusion was presumably detrimental.

[copper ginkgo]

I love that citizen

[grizzled garden]

I don't think the enclave cares that much about it

[sacred idol]

Only Enclave soldier I sympathize with is Black Devil

[abstract scarab]

Yes? The NCR has a bounty on all former and active Enclave members, hunting them down and eradicating them from the region after the events of 2.

[random star]

Ncr putting a bounty on enclave children

[solid grail]

Gotta imagine that fervor would get even higher if word gets out that the Enclave nuked Shady Sands through Hank.

[viscid fog]

“Vaguely problematic”

[blissful goblet]

Based name

[pulsar lintel]

Anything wrong with the NCR is at worst vaguely problematic yeah

[compact quail]

It's interesting that both Quintus and June who are old as fuck casually speak about the Enclave with confidence, but Maximus asks if the Enclave is real as if they are a more mythical entity for him. Pretty lore accurate because the show takes place about 50 years after the events of Fallout 2, so everyone who was alive back then probably remembers the Enclave patrols and the various dealings they had with Wateland figures and of course the BoS/NCR's history with them, but young people would only be reading about it if they can read or told tales about it.

[olive wadi]

The enclave has been public knowledge for a while post war

They're not exactly hiding

[compact quail]

I know, but they're a much more legendary faction in the West Coast after getting blasted so hard by the Chosen One

[abstract scarab]

They had military bases all over and actively patrolled the wasteland to abduct people

[olive wadi]

The NCR was actively at war with them hunting down remnants

They definitely are common public knowledge

[compact quail]

Not to Maximus

[olive wadi]

Maximus was a child in a fanatic cult

[abstract scarab]

Maximus is a dipshit

The brotherhood literally got their own state inside the NCR for helping hunt down and destroy enclave bases

[gritty peak]

He was taught what the elders wanted him to know

[pulsar lintel]

Maximus, the greatest NCR intellect

[grizzled garden]

when did he ask that?

[pulsar lintel]

Maxson was created before that. More so to do with their role fighting the Unity.

[compact quail]

Actually that fanatic cult would know more than most, but you have to remember Wastelanders don't have internet or phones and most of them can't even read or write for that matter, and it's been 50 years. People in unaffiliated towns like Filly or even some younger Freeside commoners probably don't know much about the Enclave and their history other than "Some old person said something about it once"

[compact quail]

Episode 1

[sacred idol]

That's not a high standard

[steady mauve]

i assume all the eyebots still running around playing enclave propaganda made it hard to miss them back then, but as time progressed most of the bots got salvaged for parts or taken away by couriers as companions so max didnt grow up with very many around him

[grizzled garden]

genuinely don't remember that

[pulsar lintel]

Maximus vs Fantastic

[compact quail]

Weren't eyebots mostly in Washington DC

[pulsar lintel]

Intellect battle

[steady mauve]

i mean we do find one in primm in NV

[pulsar lintel]

Yeah, the Duraframe project was pursued after the Oil Rig fell and they moved east.

[compact quail]

Well I guess the Enclave themselves brought them along just like we see Eyebots in their current compound in Colorado, but I don't think they were sending them en-masse to broadcast to the public like they did in DC

[pulsar lintel]

That was a unique case. Was sent out west by the eastern Enclave.

Originally to find the Chicago outpost but it got sidetracked along the way.

[steady mauve]

[gilded oyster]

https://x.com/TheVaultTecInc/status/2019803270273716668/photo/1

Fallout Hub (@TheVaultTecInc)

The Enclave location is a Brooklyn Army terminal. Very cool!

X · Feb 6, 2026, 4:00 PM

thats pretty neat

[random bramble]

We don’t really know that

[elder fiber]

i don't think he would be alive

[compact quail]

In the TV show or in real life? 🕵️

Maybe both.

[sacred idol]

Last time I checked, Brooklyn wasn't in the mountains lol

[viscid fog]

Deportations and Reservation camps, assassinations and imperialism are problematic yes

[pulsar lintel]

Only vaguely problematic

[marsh loom]

Well maybe you should check again

[viscid fog]

🤨 Okay Kimball

[olive wadi]

Kimball was a coward unwilling to do what needed to be done

[compact quail]

I was talking about the Enclave's presence..

[sterile eagle]

The NCR's problems are usually caused by regional governments and individual leaders rather than the entire civilization. That's how democracies are.

Meanwhile the Legion top to bottom will murder and enslave you

[olive wadi]

They didn't enslave everyone

[pulsar lintel]

The NCR’s problems are largely institutional

[viscid fog]

I mean yeah the legion is just super evil, that doesn’t stop the NCR from being evil and yeah the NCR was institutionally corrupt from the start

[olive wadi]

Legion runs by a join us or die/be enslaved

[compact quail]

Also upon reviewing the NCR platoon footage again, another detail I noticed - all of the soldiers whose faces are visible are old. This lends more credence to the idea that it's the platoon that's also been wandering the desert for 20 years or veterans scrounged up by NCR lady, not some shipment from an operational city.

[viscid fog]

Tandy ruled as an authoritarian leader

[sterile eagle]

I wouldn't describe the NCR as evil, I think that's an oversimplification of the problems of a democratic republic.

The Legion is evil because Caesar is evil. The Legion is an extension of his will, nobody else's

[olive wadi]

Joining freely you should have no fear of being enslaved

[viscid fog]

Anyone who does the things I listed are definitely morally evil

Lot of the things the NCR does lines up with imperialist 19-20th century America

[olive wadi]

The NCR is evil because it is corrupt and has abandoned everything it stands for

[pulsar lintel]

The NCR aren’t malicious but especially given the setting they are a terrible solution to rebuilding civilization.

[viscid fog]

It’s just tame vs most factions in fallout

[olive wadi]

The NCR is little more than raiders wearing uniforms

[compact quail]

Caesar's dead and the Legion is still evil. The legion is evil because most of the goody two-shoes who refused to participate in evil from all the tribes they conquered got purged while the most evil opportunists got promoted.

[olive wadi]

This isn't true

The Legion would wipe out tribes that rejected them or fought back iirc they only completely killed off 2 tribes

[compact quail]

It clearly is, the Legionnaires are all fucked up in their own way with their own sadistic streaks or guilty pleasures that aren't even part of Caesar's purvey

[pulsar lintel]

Lanius wiped out 5 tribes in his conquests in Colorado

[sterile eagle]

This is like comparing the imperialist US to Nazi Germany.

Yes the US has done horrible, unacceptable things but I don't think that means the entire institution of the United States is fundamentally immoral. I'd say the same thing of any country genuinely trying to be democratic.

Nazi Germany, like the Legion, existed with the sole intention of conquering territory, eliminating enemies of the state, and establishing a slave labor class. There was never any attempt at a representative democracy or considering the will of its citizens whatsoever.

[olive wadi]

Yeah 5

[compact quail]

Never said anything about wiping out the whole tribe

[olive wadi]

Tribes that joined willingly or even independents were warmly welcomed by the Legion and offered actual protection

[sterile eagle]

No government that has ever existed has existed without serious flaws

[viscid fog]

Bruh again the Legion being extremely evil doesn’t make the NCR moral

[civic crypt]

it's good effects work

[sterile eagle]

I didn't say the NCR was moral, I said it wasn't evil.

[olive wadi]

2 evil things are still evil

[civic crypt]

https://fixupx.com/falloutonprime/status/2019819982184673318?t=CBX3dafYXKbbD2no9cn7hw&s=19
don't know if this was shared yet but what I do find interesting is MacLachlan is in the video, which means he's seemingly sticking around and if it's only in flashbacks i'm sad

FALLOUT⚡️ (@falloutonprime)

Good morning, Vault Dwellers! This is your official reminder that more presentations are in the works, and we look forward to seeing you for Season Three!

**💬 55 🔁 356 ❤️ 4.7K 👁️ 103.7K **

▶ Play video

FixupX · Feb 6, 2026, 5:06 PM

[viscid fog]

I actually support the NCR btw, doesn’t mean I’m afraid to point outs it’s murders and deportations. Same with the BoS. Top 2 fallout factions don’t @ me

[compact quail]

Again, just like I said, every member of a given tribe who thought the Legion's ways are too immoral and did resist their orders and practices got purged, and only those who tolerate all of their immoral methods remain.

[sterile eagle]

There's a difference between being morally complex/grey and being evil. I think "evil" requires some intention of being malicious on a fundamental level

[sterile eagle]

Right, I know. I just think the standard of evil is dilluted if it's applied to the NCR in the same way it's applied to the Legion or the BoS

[olive wadi]

It's important to note that 90% of these tribes were murderous raiders

[viscid fog]

I mean if I deport you and put you on a barren Native American reservation because I want your land you are evil bro

[olive wadi]

Colorado in particular

[pulsar lintel]

So Caesar says…

[compact quail]

All the more reason why it's not just 'Caesar's will' that makes the Legion evil for those who perceive it as evil.

[viscid fog]

I mean most factions have goals that aren’t in themselves evil. It’s how they conduct them

[olive wadi]

This logic is fun because it means none of them are evil by their own logic right interesting

[sterile eagle]

The interesting philosophical question here is this, I think - is a democratic institution evil because of evil actions of its leaders, or are those leaders individually evil?

Most people will agree that numerous US presidents have generally been evil but does that make the entire country fundamentally evil?

[compact quail]

What about the Fiends

[pulsar lintel]

Yes

[viscid fog]

I think both the NCR and BoS are good factions for the wasteland but moral evil from both is common enough

[civic crypt]

i really thought MacLachlan was gonna leave since Hanks story was done but I guess now we're just stuck with creepy flashback Hank which sucks lol

[viscid fog]

I get what you mean. But the NCRs institutions encourage those people to take charge

[pearl ferry]

I mean Hank isnt over, he could just be the new caesars pet

[pulsar lintel]

The voter base are evil, and the system that allowed these individuals to gain power and further pervert their society are also evil 👍

Caesar was right!