Fair Deck/ Hand Mechanics

[raven shale]

Currently, Ive noticed cards can have absolutely horrendous placements in your deck. For example, I was playing a US/French deck, and I needed 1 card to finish a combo. I had 3 copies, and I found that card in the last 6 cards. All 3 of them. Back to back. This happened a couple of more times, with all of those cards being in the last 20 cards in my deck. I have also noticed times where I draw 2 or 3 of a card in few turns, or I will get the sole copy of a card I mulliganed. To be put right back into my hand*

To be honest, it isn't a terrible issue, but I hate winning or losing a game is solely decided by wether or not I had bad luck or my opponent worse luck. For example, one of my opponents had 3 'from the mist's ' in his starting hand, or I've seen countermeasure decks that don't seem to draw any countermeasures. I still think that forcing cards to be more spread out through the deck will make lower rarity cards always easier to draw

To remedy this, force copies of cards to have a range of at least 12-15, so they are spread evenly throughout the deck. This could also be determined by the amounts of copies in your deck, with 4 copies having a range of even 20 cards.

For mulligan and putting cards into your deck, just make it so you can't get cards you dropped from the mulligan, at least cards with only 1 copy. Perhaps mulligan cards will be put on the bottom of your deck to make the choice of keeping a card more thoughtful

For fair hand mechanics, make it so the first card you draw for your hand be a 1-cost card. Sure it'll promote one |1 cost card| decks, but it will also make sure your enemy can't just overhelm you due to luck

[foggy plover]

this would devalue search cards

[raven shale]

So did develop, but search still sees play

[foggy plover]

i feel like this could be done in a test gamemode to see its effects

its a huge systemic change, ive thought about the same thing and i agree with most points, but it all just comes back to "this could create severe system wide issues"

[frozen scroll]

It’s a card game lol, it’s shuffled sometimes you get it sometimes you don’t

[raven shale]

The effects would be barely noticable in most cases. It would take a larger sample size to see how it alters the game

[frozen scroll]

Hence why you don’t build a deck with inconsistencies

[foggy plover]

no, this would make decks significantly more consistent

and imagine playing PUSH and only getting 1 push on 20 and the other on 35

because of how its spaced out

it would kill some combo strats outright

[raven shale]

Then run more copies?

[foggy plover]

how many copies of PUSH do you think exist in the game?

[frozen scroll]

You do know that you’re the creator of your deck right

[foggy plover]

This

[frozen scroll]

If you want consistency, add more copies

[raven shale]

Then maybe make cards with 1 copy not follow that effect*

[frozen scroll]

Don’t run 1x and complain why it didn’t come to hand

[foggy plover]

So make the once simple deck system extremely complicated?

and remember, there's a lot of system issues this could create

this alters the baseline of the game

[raven shale]

Thats literally taking away the effect, how is that more complicated?

[frozen scroll]

I run 4x, 3x of my combo pieces

So I draw them in time

That’s how a deck becomes consistent

[foggy plover]

how would you implement a system in the first place

[raven shale]

What kind of question even is that?

I already said some examples of what I think could be changed

[foggy plover]

i thought I was pretty clear
how do you plan on making a sorting algorithim that's balanced in your terms, and also random enough

if you're gonna create a suggestion, make it more specific so people can figure out what you're asking for, and what problems it might have

I have no clue what you're asking for now

[raven shale]

Literally just check if cards that have 3-4 copies are within range of one another, and if not shift a random card so it fits outside* the range

[foggy plover]

so shift the entire deck until it has no repeating cards within range of each other?

[raven shale]

Do you know what a range is?

[foggy plover]

thats why i asked you to list it directly

is the range 5 cards? 10 cards?

[kindred sky]

Mfw I need my fourth red dawn to win and I just drew my third with 16 cards left

[raven shale]

literally says 12-15 for cards, and I would assume it only applies with cards that have 3-4 copies

[foggy plover]

thing is, now the opponent has the exact same system, so in the end, you will still end up with RNG fucking you over

what happens then?

[frozen scroll]

[raven shale]

? The entire point is that its a card game. There will be RNG. My suggestion is to have ways to work around RNG, by having Cards with more copies be more consistently placed within your deck

So you may not get a card you need, but all your convoys wont be in the last 15 cards of your deck or something

[foggy plover]

you're the one building your deck though?

[frozen scroll]

Why is there even a suggestion on making a RANDOM deck less random

[raven shale]

Yes, and this system would make it so if you put 4 cards in your deck, there is a higher chance of consistently drawing them throughout the game rather than all at once

[frozen scroll]

What even is this

Lol

That negates the point of it being a random deck draw lol

[foggy plover]

breaks game balancing and base mechanics

[frozen scroll]

Exactly

[kindred sky]

The odds of drawing all 4 at once is super low I’m sorry it seems to happen often but if you play more games the consistency will be a blessing more than a bane if you built your deck right

[foggy plover]

ive had this exact thought about making deck more consistent, and then i thought again and realized "wait what the fuck am i thinking this is a random draw game"

[frozen scroll]

Why do you think push decks run a lot of stall and draw?

[chilly tinsel]

the chance that the deck is shuffled in such a way is wayyyyy higher than y'all think

[frozen scroll]

It’s just negative bias tbh

People only remember the bad times losing to it

But when they win with it, no issues with the system

[raven shale]

Did I not put examples of my enemies getting fucked over by the rng?

[frozen scroll]

That doesn’t make the suggestion right

[raven shale]

doesn't make it wrong either

[frozen scroll]

It does, because it breaks the random aspect of the deck

Hence why different rarities have different number of copies

To offset that a bit

[foggy plover]

if a suggestion isn't right, and it's asking to change a core game mechanic, then its wrong

[raven shale]

The kards can still be assorted randomly, it just lowers the chance of them being stacked on top of each other

[frozen scroll]

Flipping a coin multiple times, you’ll be surprised how many times you get more than 4-5 heads in a row

However small the chance is

That’s how random works

[frozen scroll]

What if I want a deck that draws all the low cost copies first?

[foggy plover]

and also, doing this would break my 5K PUSH OTK

[frozen scroll]

Like red dawns

That’s making it impossible to draw them early

What if I want all my honors early for tsuraga

[raven shale]

Do you even know what im asking for>

[frozen scroll]

Or counter offensive

You asked to spread out copies in the deck

I want to draw my copies back to back

[raven shale]

Within a limited range In correlation to the other cards

[foggy plover]

i need 2 push back to back, and 3 rd back to back

😠

[frozen scroll]

Yes, what if I want it all by turn 5?

Turn6?

Impossible with this suggestion

[raven shale]

Wdym by all?

[frozen scroll]

4 copies of Red dawn

I want it in hand early

With my push

[foggy plover]

thing is, this is asking the community to toss their old knowledge of playing around random chances, and instead beat around the bush trying to play around a totally new and more complicated generator

[frozen scroll]

What’s the point of it being spread out

What if I run 4x war machines

[foggy plover]

not only that, this change would significantly break or nerf a bunch of other decks

[frozen scroll]

Do I have to wait late game to draw my 3rd or 4th copy?

[raven shale]

thats possible because you are easily able to draw 12 cards within 6 turns

[frozen scroll]

It’s ridiculous

[foggy plover]

yeah, but my draw orders also got spread out

[kindred sky]

Drawing 4 war machines in the first 4 turns against jaggro does hurt though

[foggy plover]

now i can't find my godamm cards

[frozen scroll]

But you said spread out, so red dawn will be in top 10, second 10, third 10 and last 9 cards

Drawing 12 won’t change

[raven shale]

What are you spouting? A range of 12 is less than a 3rd of a deck

[chilly tinsel]

Let's assume that a deck consists of 39 cards and you run all cards as 3ofs = 13 different cards.

The chance all 3 of any given card are at the bottom 10 of your deck is 1.313%, so quite low.

The chance that this DOESNT happen, for ANY of your 13 cards can be estimated by taking (1-0.01313)^13 = ~84%. This means that in ~16% of your games you see all 3 of a given card at the bottom 10.

To note is that this is an approximation because these are conditional probabilities

[frozen scroll]

39 card deck

4 copies spread evenly is 1 in every 10

Bruh

[raven shale]

Thats not what im asking for

[foggy plover]

this is a good change on paper, but if you think about it, it breaks game balancing way too much

[raven shale]

Do you even know what a range is?

[frozen scroll]

You apply the range to every card correct?

Evenly right?

[foggy plover]

esp with mulligans

[raven shale]

...

[foggy plover]

what if i want two of the same card on mulligan

like with pizzaggro

[raven shale]

The range is the maximum distance from the first to last card

[foggy plover]

i want pizza tank, and 3 buff cards

[frozen scroll]

Every copy of that card , a range is applied right

So if I run a deck with all standards, all 4x

How will the deck be arranged?

[foggy plover]

can you explain your thing properly so people don't have to punch air trying to figure out what you mean

[frozen scroll]

Explain this

[foggy plover]

i asked you this previously and you dodged it

[kindred sky]

I mean the current setup is also a range then lmfao just mega unlucky

[foggy plover]

can you just explain your suggestion properly

[raven shale]

Mb yall dont understand basic math definitions

[frozen scroll]

Lol sure

[foggy plover]

what a great comeback

[frozen scroll]

You’re the one not explaining it properly

If you’re working at my workplace, you would’ve been laid off long ago

[foggy plover]

"my explanation sucks so it must be everyone else's problem!"

[frozen scroll]

With that explanation

[raven shale]

A range is the distance from the minimum (top copy) and the maximum (bottom copy)

[foggy plover]

"it's never my fault!"

[frozen scroll]

Yes, so how would a deck of all standards be arranged

[foggy plover]

so, in a range of 15, im assuming all 4 cards can be in that range ?

[frozen scroll]

4x of each

[raven shale]

yes

[frozen scroll]

Meaning each card will have approximately 9-10 cards between them right

[raven shale]

...

[kindred sky]

“Force copies cards to have a range of at least 12-15, with 4 copies having a range of 20 cards”

[raven shale]

maybe

[kindred sky]

So you can still draw 4 copies in a row but with extra steps?

[frozen scroll]

If you apply a force to each card

It will be evenly spread

[kindred sky]

My brother I am quoting you

[foggy plover]

worst explanation ever, i don't know what else to say
we didn't fail basic math, we assumed you understood basic english

[frozen scroll]

How can you apply it to certain cards

[foggy plover]

💀

[frozen scroll]

So in a deck of all standards, 4x each, how would it be arranged?

[raven shale]

'This could also be determined by the amounts of copies in your deck, with 4 copies having a range of even 20 cards.'
thats not what I said

[frozen scroll]

4x A
4x B
4x C
Etc

So you’re saying all copies of A will be in a range of the top 20 cards

[kindred sky]

Yes so 3 copies would have a smaller value for the range

[frozen scroll]

Then what about B

And C

And D

[foggy plover]

i don't get it

[frozen scroll]

?

[foggy plover]

this is insane and makes RNG even worse in some cases

[raven shale]

Ok ill give you an example bruh

[foggy plover]

you could end up having all your RD in the back 20 range of cards

[kindred sky]

I do get it but it adds a lot of complexity for very little change to the game at all cause the worst case scenario happens in super unlikely cases

[frozen scroll]

Ok show me

[kindred sky]

Which in the current game is relatively super unlikely anyway

[chilly tinsel]

maybe they meant that cards of the same amount cannot reappear before you have seen 1 of each of them

[frozen scroll]

Yeah so in a deck of all 4x copies of standards, by definition, I will not see my last RD until bottom 10

[chilly tinsel]

like if you have 40 cards, A B C D E F G H I J, it could look like:
A B C D E F G H I J
J I H G F E D C B A
F G H I J A B C D E
J I H G F E D C B A

?

[raven shale]

If i have (a) card as the 12th card in the deck, (b),(c) and (d) cannot all be within the first 12 cards

[frozen scroll]

Yeah that screws over combo decks

[raven shale]

with (a)(b)(c) and (d) being copies

[molten hamlet]

I don't get why this would be a thing, this is a card game and all cards need to be randomly shuffled in the decks. Why should it be any different?

[frozen scroll]

It’s terrible for combo decks

[raven shale]

Then so does rng...

[frozen scroll]

Why do you want to screw over their already random draws

[chilly tinsel]

any deck that wants to see multiple of card X

[frozen scroll]

Just make a more consistent deck

[foggy plover]

this makes it so rather than RNG fucking over your deck, you just fuck over your deck

[frozen scroll]

This suggestion only benefits players who run low copies of cards

Which is the complete opposite of how the game is designed

[raven shale]

It only affects cards with 3-4 copies-

[foggy plover]

its not the failure of the game that you failed to design a consistent deck

go back to deckmaking school

[frozen scroll]

Yes exactly, the point of running 3-4x is to make it consistent

This suggestion makes it less consistent

Doesn’t make sense

[raven shale]

What are you saying?

[molten hamlet]

That you are bad at making consistent decks

[frozen scroll]

Yes you get screwed over by draws, but it happens not as much as you think anyway

Just run more 4x

And you’ll be fine

[foggy plover]

i used to spam the fuck out of CWPUSH, and draws have screwed me over MAYBE 5% of the time

and that's a deck that requires a specific combo of cards

[chilly tinsel]

this suggestion thread has some strong "games are only decided by deck RNG" energy

[foggy plover]

well, that or i just get CW for hilarious outplays

[raven shale]

i already run max cards, but it doesnt mean I always get it* up until the 25th card

[frozen scroll]

Yes but it becomes more likely

[foggy plover]

commonwealth my beloved

[chilly tinsel]

there are many workarounds

[frozen scroll]

That’s how probabilities work

[kindred sky]

He did say it isn’t a terrible issue it’s just I think this suggestion breaks more than it fixes

[frozen scroll]

That’s why pro decks run 3-4x of their core cards

Like USFL and their Sherman’s

[foggy plover]

this

[chilly tinsel]

for one, if you can only win if you see a certain card top 25 of your deck, the deck needs super strong draw power, tutor, or more win conditions so you can win without drawing that

[foggy plover]

it tries to fix whats not broken

and ends up breaking even more

and like i said, i have thought of this when i was newer to the game
thought it was the best idea since sliced cheese
then as i played the game more i realized how bad of an idea it was

[raven shale]

The problem is not all archetypes will have large amounts of win cons or draw

[frozen scroll]

Prepare yourself, FP is here

[foggy plover]

play the game more

[frozen scroll]

Good archetypes have them

Bad ones don’t

[chilly tinsel]

I mean, not all do?

like redundancy IS a thing

it's why I run 10x 1K units in my frontline deck

I don't need to draw a SPECIFIC 1K unit to start getting into the frontline and stuff

[molten hamlet]

OP, what deck are you using that caused you to come up with this?

[raven shale]

I have 280 hrs, I understand the game enough to know what I'm suggesting

[chilly tinsel]

I need to draw ANY

[raven hawk]

Having certain "guarantees" between cards in a deck leads to larger issues related to how consistently a deck can do certain things. It is best to leave the deck to simply be shuffled as needed. For the most part issues related to not finding a combo or whatever comes down to either

1. Plain bad luck that everyone deals with (like playing aggro and after a mulligan still not having any plays until turn 3 like I just did lol)
2. Needing to fine tune the deck with more draw to better minimize the chance of getting blanked

[frozen scroll]

Exactly

[foggy plover]

LMAO i had 300 hours when i thought of the EXACT same thing you did

boo hoo, later on i realized i was being stupid

[raven shale]

I'm still going to stand by my statement

[frozen scroll]

It’s just blind rage after losing trust me,

I’ve suggested worse when I was losing a lot

[foggy plover]

Yeah, which is why people are trying to convince you not to be stupid

🙏

we all have that stage

[kindred sky]

I still think mill should be removed from the game

[molten hamlet]

I've also thought of stupid stuff after losing, like nerfing Panzer-II B

[foggy plover]

which is why people like to prevent others from repeating their mistakes

[raven hawk]

Players are insanely good at abusing any tiny advantage they can find
and something like more structured decks would sorta rig it in favor even more of fine tuned meta lists with highrolls in it

[frozen scroll]

Cry

[raven shale]

No, Some poor opponent was screwed over and I felt bad for him so I saw what he drew, and It was just sad

[frozen scroll]

Yeah but everyone has bad draws

[raven hawk]

tis the nature of all card games

[frozen scroll]

That’s how it is

[molten hamlet]

I don't believe you

[kindred sky]

We forfeit and go next

[frozen scroll]

Just go next

[kindred sky]

Where we win because we are more consistent

[foggy plover]

what the hell this isn't what you started off with

[frozen scroll]

If your deck is consistent, you will win more than you lose

Doesn’t mean you won’t lose

You definitely will

But less often than winning

[raven shale]

It was some Jap discard who drew 0 discard cards except salavege

[raven hawk]

Unless your Jking

[foggy plover]

can we get resistance back please

so i can combo it with mill or shibata

🙏

[raven hawk]

Mill is new resistance

resistance will not return

[frozen scroll]

https://tenor.com/view/you-shall-not-pass-gandalf-wizard-gif-13584855

[foggy plover]

done cooked forever?

[frozen scroll]

That’s FP and ITs

[raven shale]

Wdym?

[raven hawk]

We have not seen a new resistance card since 2019
The thing is dead

[foggy plover]

damm

that sucks

i thought resistance was a really smart and asshole strat to use

[raven hawk]

Mill is the slightly more palatable alternative as people can at least play some cards

[foggy plover]

and some of the more creative ideas 1939 has thought

same with whatsitscalled

[raven hawk]

Just not much design room and a headache whenever it becomes halfway decent

Mill can be fine tuned a bit more

[foggy plover]

last rites

and kamikaze

that was a fun type as well

[foggy plover]

yeah i get that, resistance was hilarious unless you were playing against it

[chilly tinsel]

Game outcomes are determined by many different things:

• 1. Decision making
• 2. Deck construction
• 3. RNG of many different types (deck order, matchup, opponent)
     All those things apply to you and your opponent. And all those things are further influenced by talent/skill, knowledge and experience

Also:

• Key is finding joy in playing the game in all its aspects: Deckbuilding and refining, playing, the thrill of not knowing what will happen next, back and forth /nailbiter games
• => You can enjoy yourself and have fun when losing too
• Doing so consistently across many games
• Focus on what you can control instead of what you cannot
• Try to improve in all aspects of the game

[molten hamlet]

OP, just remember that this is a card game and shouldn’t have an ordered deck, it should be shuffled and random like playing a real life deck building game

We must all hope that the heart of the cards are in our favor

And also the rng

We need that in our favor as well

[raven hawk]

Could come back maybe. Although it would probably see adjustments so it’s less a straight out win con. Or at least it’s more like Kikka where you need several cards to get enough kamikaze

[foggy plover]

yeah, it was a cool concept, shame it never really took off

had like what, 2 elites that spawned them?

very big shame

[raven hawk]

Even those 2 carried Jpn control for years similar to CW

It was meta at several points because it was such a good win con with kawanishi

[foggy plover]

i suppose it would be hard to keep the theming without breaking either the card and vice versa

[raven hawk]

Last rites would need to be reworked to have other kamikaze around it

Could be neat but needs to be done carefully

[foggy plover]

yeah, i probs dont expect it to come back anytime soon

probs a year or two

😔

[mossy edge]

This is an old issue. I firmly believe mulligan in this game is rigged. I played 3000+ hrs but I still don't want to treat this game as a serious card game . There is a great chance you throw out a card and it comes right back to your hand in the mulligan stage, even you just have one of that card in whole hand.

[raw wasp]

insane suggestions recently

sometimes you draw poorly

thats all card games, fellas

what kinda sentence is 'i played 3000+ hours and dont treat this game as a serious card game' my brother in christ what would you consider it then at that point

anyway add more draw cards to yer deck

[frozen scroll]

Weird comments lately lol

[spark pond]

This.

Why is this a suggestion

[gentle willow]

Just run more draw?

[soft eagle]

I know this is a really old thread but I've been playing the game a long time and I feel this might be worth reopening. In this thread most of the comments were more about how the decks are too random at times. I'm wondering if somehow things have gone the other way?

Over the past few months in particular I seem to be seeing a lot of cases where three or more of the same card show up in the first ten cards or less of my opponent's decks. These are generally low cost enhancement cards of some sort. I get that people can build a deck full of enhancements but regularly getting all the instances of the one before draw ten or even earlier? As well as one or two base cards that benefit the most from that enhancement? It should be very rare. Maybe I've just been unlucky but I'm starting to feel a bit victimised 🙂

[zenith pasture]

Sometimes you just get lucky

I assume what you're talking about is just Jaggro. I know they have way too many options to just jab you

15th Cav, then that stupid 1k car tank thing

[hasty walrus]

This is really a good suggestion.

[hasty walrus]

Absolutely

[raven hawk]

https://tenor.com/view/necromancer-please-necromancer-please-gif-26917294

[odd wing]

Saint Seiya reference

[raw wasp]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-no-nonono-noooo-cat-no-gif-13597132752790194338

[cosmic sierra]

The Skeleton King shall rise again!

[pine narwhal]

The Canadians shall rise once again %Canadian%

[mossy jay]

Cards found: 1

[raven shale]

Wow wow wow

Guess who was right all along lol

More up to chance a game is, the less fun it is to play

[cosmic sierra]

its a cards game, ofc chances are a main core mechanic, thats the fun part

[raven shale]

Considering the meta (at least was, I barely touch the game anymore) filled with decks that are all basically cards that are saturated with synergy and value that the disparity between something casual and competitive night and day

I don’t think the game was in a healthy state

[cosmic sierra]

well, blame that to the balance part as some are either pretty busted or terrible, the draw mechanic and luck is not really what might make the game not fun to play

but given that each balance patch comes 3 months each with only 4-6 cards being adjusted, it will never be solved

[raven shale]

The draw mechanic is not necessarily bad. But when 1939 increasingly makes cards that are necessary for certain matchups special and elite, all it does is further make certain matchups frustrating to play

[pine narwhal]

Well they''re oen a gate where they got to reworked and buff a ton or something of the resered cards

[slender ledge]

Maybe the shuffle your deck ability can be used to solve the problem?