#make weapons and shields other than mass battery and passive shield viable in red stars

78 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

restive kernel
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i could go into detail about why massbat and passive shield are meta but i dont wanna look like a massive nerd in a server i joined 2 hours ago 💀
but the TLDR for mass battery is (in my opinion) that every weapon that could be viable has retargetting delay, making them abysmal against crowds, and every weapon that doesnt have it is either bad at crowd control (the lazers), has a gimmick that doesnt make it reliable at all times (dart/rocket launcher) or is unlocked at the very end of the game (pulse)
and for passive shield, in my opinion its cuz every other shield available has a 4 minute cooldown, whereas passive only takes 54-48s to heal to full and still has very solid health values

im honestly pretty sure this is a duplicate but the closest i could find is one that asks for targetting delay on mass battery which... is not a good idea 💀

coral mossBOT
gusty cape
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I use omega shield and vengeance. Its a lot of fun and is meta on BLS.

And you COULD USE other tech..just need to figure out the right strategies for it and play the game differently.

Willing to join your corp and run a few stars together to test out random strats if you want to spend the time experimenting.

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Expand on Omega: you can pop omega shield before entering a star (i do so on DRS) about 1:30 in. That way i have about 2 shields for 1 (by the time i need another shield i can renew it). And when vengeance activates it can also activate a shield and Omega is pretty strong, so its like getting a passive level shield after popping vengeance.

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I wanted to run Vengeance for fun, so i actually had it built up pretty well when DN popped. And i also was running Omega probably after i learned i could pre-cook it.

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Other weapons used to be more viable. The main problem is Solitude. Its not really a problem - because i really enjoy it. But player use to bunch their ships together and use different weapons on each ship and or run all barrage and just rotate to soak damage.

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Pulse would be interesting as an earlier weapon. Its fun unlocking tech, but could be more fun to have access to all tech at once and then just decide how many points you want in each and a respec option..but then..thats anothet idea entirely

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Passive Shield is pretty good, but you can do a lot with the others too

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METAS are metas because players find that they like those the best. And while there may be some balancing issues needed, you can create new metas and continue to experiment in this game (with time) to create a new meta or an anti-meta. Ie: go find the anti-matter that breaks the current meta for us. There is one out there.

worn moat
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In my opinion, they should rework a lot of things, whether it's weapons, shields, or Cerberus. They came with the promise that Dark Nebula would make all the modules work on Red Stars, and look what's happened. At first glance, only the boring combo of Solitude, Multi-Battery, and Regenerative Shield seems viable. :/ I think I'll rarely use that. I've started playing with other modules like lasers or Mirror Shield and Allies, and I'm having much more fun than with the usual combo, even if it's not as effective. I'll keep doing this because otherwise, I'd end up quitting the game, and I don't want to. What's the point of having so much variety if only a few things actually work well on Red Stars, the main game mode?

restive kernel
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oh god i was scared of opening this thread and i see some actually interesting feedback xd

restive kernel
restive kernel
restive kernel
dusk stump
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Could be another reason for dark/light varients

gusty cape
gusty cape
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You can join WALRUS and check the last posted RS10

gusty cape
unborn lynx
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I’ll point out that devs said all mods would be viable in red stars and that drs would be incredible hard. So complaining that specific mods don’t work when literally everything does indeed work in normal rs is kinda silly. That said most people seem to be using alpha veng and gate cheesing again making every build viable when you only use it for 30 seconds and get a new ship. That’s not to say I don’t wanna see bad mods improved but it’s pretty closed minded to say mass regen is op when most of the community still can’t clear a drs with any mod combo even the “meta”

restive kernel
restive kernel
# unborn lynx I’ll point out that devs said all mods would be viable in red stars and that drs...

and honestly youre 100% right on this, i think i worded my suggestion horribly wrong 💀
although i dont think i specifically said that passive was op, i meant to say that other shields are just bad most of the time due to that cooldown
my problm is specifically that in DRS you cant really use anything else other than massbat and passive without making your ship an alpha veng sector nuker like ye mentioned

unborn lynx
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Iv seen other reliable builds, namely rl and dl but yes basically anything that’s not mass is gonna be slowly and clunky

teal anvil
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For drd it's actually not true in multiple ways because it partially varies on teams and roles of those teams, although that's rare. @unborn lynx and I had a fun test with that one.
With the right teams a lot of weapons are viable. Dart can be amazing at killing hydras, but definitely has to avoid ghosts. That said, pulse has the same problem. Wrong timing and your dead. Those ships jump around a lot.
For regular teamruns dual laser isn't bad either.
When looking at the top tiers you'll see a lot of players switching to motion shield, which is actually the real powerhouse of drs. Especially combined with suspend.
A lot of shields are usable in the right hands. Use high level mirror correctly and you'll end up nuking a planet.
The first player who reached lvl999 and drs11 max influence did that with impulse10.

teal anvil
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Although my meta has a cheat code. 😁

unborn lynx
teal anvil
unborn lynx
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But the message you responded to was in reference to normal rs being beatable with anything.

teal anvil
torn pivot
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12 bs can bulldoze anything with weak batteries or maybe even with the single-target laser

quaint thunder
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You could nerf mass battery in rs to boost the rest but how much nerf would that need to be ?

Also that would make other weapons viable in rs but drs would become impossible ?

And honestly RS is a joke, the real deal are DRS.

And how else are you going to clear multiple ships in drs ?

  1. Ally shield + darts ?
  2. Dual laser ?

Or you could increase the amount of targets hit by mass battery but lower the base damage which would make mass battery small fries clearing machine > then you go in with something else like battery or laser

Can be interesting in normal RS but for drs ? Hard enough as is.

slow vector
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I'd be happy with the tick speed increased in drs. My dual lazer ship needs to jump around to avoid ghosts

gusty cape
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What if you could Re-Spec to an RS-Appropriate Level for Tech and then semi (20%) nerf the mods that are most used. This way you would have to see what works best again, and have more advantage over using less used mods given you have the specs to use them.

Would kind of kill RS though - no point researching. But the gameplay is still fun.

Maybe work backwards: you need to unlock the next level of tech to level up your scanner and reach new respec.

May even balance out the inbalance of BLS and WS

fallen crag
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Simply put, the weapons need rebalancing. An easy fix would be to modify the rage of the weapons. Battery should have some extra range over MBatt, etc.
Also, Blast and Ally Shield should be constant like Regen

torn pivot
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The current cerberus design heavily favors multi-target, so the range increase won't change anything. You can try to use chain ray in drs to see how much advantage over mbatt an increased range will add

idle fog
# fallen crag Simply put, the weapons need rebalancing. An easy fix would be to modify the ra...

Sounds good. I do prefer a small change in your idea though. Instead of ally and blast only constant, it should be toggleable. And not work the complete same way as regen shield. As that makes ally and blast shields too easy to predict.

Ally and blast regen overtime sounds amazing, and if toggle off they still regen up. I would be down for that ;)
Should not be as fast regen as regen shield though.

torn pivot
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Both blast and ally shields lack purpose in the current red stars.
Their main goal is protecting allies in an area, which is pointless in the solitude meta. And since the majority of cerberus ships does direct damage, making both blast and ally shield a bad options, since they won't protect the battleship at all in 95% of the run.
Ally shield is especially bad, since there will be no allied ships in the same sector with you, and there are no good combat drones or rockets in the game

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Maybe if ally shield had bigger range, it could be used as a cross-sector support tool. But right now, it's only useful for destroying phoenixes with the dart launcher

charred cove
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And/Or 0,5 sec after every mass battery kill or three

unborn lynx
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Making mass worse doesn’t make other things better andreas_facepalm We just need the target switch removed completely for the time being and let’s see if it’s op. Can always be dialed back later

charred cove
torn pivot
charred cove
torn pivot
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Not really. I think regular battery got TSD to not outperform a regular laser or something like that, barrage had TSD before DN, and chain ray got it because of it's range

charred cove
unborn lynx
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Battery without target switch is still worse than mass by quite a bit. I want a harder rs experience but I bet less than a dozen players could beat it. Making the game impossible to play for most of the player base is a bad direction to take the game.

charred cove
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Simple and minimal tweaks usually work nice without causing to much trouble on the players, but that’s just my take on it

torn pivot
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Mbatt is the 2nd best option in the game mainly because of how much it increases survivability and consistency by attacking 2 additional targets at the same time. Add on top of that a solitude module, that amplifies the weaknesses of damaging only a single target at a time, and a simple TSD decrease/removal won't make anything feel good to use.
Currently, there are no situations where single-target weapons would be a better choice over mbatt, because the difficulty in both red stars is achieved by quantity of enemies and projectile spam. Adding TSD to mbatt won't change anything, it ill just make the game more annoying. Why bother struggling with a single-target weapon, when you have an option to autoclear with mbatt, even if it has 0,5 switch delay. Maybe if some sectors without planets had mostly capital ships instead of hordes of sentinels, there would be a way to bring single-target weapons without feeling like you are purposefully handicapping yourself to see something new on your screen, but right now, the only benefit of single-target is a slightly faster destruction of interceptors. Maybe, popping phoenix before your veng goes off, if you rely on it to clear planets.
Number tweaks won't do anything, since the problem is in the fundamental design of weapons and cerberus ships. Only a big redesign of the mode will help, which is unlikely to happen.

charred cove
torn pivot
charred cove
torn pivot
charred cove
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It’s more than now , and it required more skill

torn pivot
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Not really. Back then barrier used to cover the entire sector in PvE

unborn lynx
torn pivot
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Hades' Star is a simple game. And damaging 3 targets at a time is simply better

charred cove
slow vector
teal anvil
charred cove
teal anvil
teal anvil
charred cove
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Like I’ve said to #1 cerberus fan , I guess you’re right

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I meant keeps changing individually as you progress into the end game

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Not overall

teal anvil
# charred cove I meant keeps changing individually as you progress into the end game

The meta options are a good starting point. Around d9/d10 it's time to experiment with different builds. By that time the average blueprints are high enough for decent lvls.
Even with meta builds, a single different mod or different use of builds can change everything.
I'm known for being a rocket drone wizard. A simple tank build with a different drone required a different mentality and far more complex strategy so that 1 mod made all the difference.
A veng bs can be used in far more ways than simply nuking a planet.

charred cove
teal anvil
charred cove
teal anvil
torn pivot
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I tried to do a run with the meta build. And after all non-soli runs, the amount of things you can do for no effort at all with this easy mode is insane

unborn lynx
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That’s why I don’t understand how people still can’t clear with the meta build

torn pivot
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Major skill issue

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Although, I have lvl14 tech

fallen crag
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I guess I didn’t realize that people couldn’t clear with meta? That’s real?

MBatt/Regen/Soli is “easy mode”

unborn lynx
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Not only real but the average player