#Penalty for obvious WS loss farming

89 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

lean violet
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14h left and the other team finally jumps in all of their bs and squishies, moves to the closest roid (in the gate sector), fires off all of their mods, and goes back to gate.

This match will end 56-0 and none of those 20 players enjoyed the experience.

Clearly our oppenents don't want to play WS. They only participate because it's linked to corp progression. We also don't want them to play WS. We enjoy the game mode and want to play complicated space chess with our internet friends against an actual opponent. Farming relics in a vacuum is not fun.

As long as corp progress is tied to WS participation, this will continue to happen. Prevent that corp from scanning for a week or something.

Edits for clarity.

Screenshot_20240322_092512_Hades_Star.jpg
orchid breach
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Oh yes, let's force these players to engage with a game mode they don't like or face punishment. Surely that'll make everyone happier right?

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If the game is capable of detecting loss farmers then there is plenty of ways to handle that situation (for example, make loss farmers only play each other).
Punishing them by making them unable to play isn't it.

silver temple
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I think losing and only gaining 4 exp per player who jumped in is punishment enough.
What WS lacks is a reward system that makes it worth playing. Maybe there needs to be another way for corporations to progress rather than exp.
Maybe tie progress specifically to total wins, i.e. 25 wins to level up the Corp.

blazing juniper
silver temple
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Hell, bring in some kind of game mechanic that rewards a Corp for “In-Corp Shipment Runs” or something

silver temple
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I probably am.
WS are the primary reason I play this game

blazing juniper
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Same

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I'm in a similar WS where the enemy is not participating. A whole week of not being able to play the game because other people are loss farming

orchid breach
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But.... "As long as corp progress is tied to WS participation, this will continue to happen."

silver temple
orchid breach
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This suggestion isn't about unlinking corp progress from WS though, it's about punishing players that want the progress but don't want to WS.

silver temple
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If we punish them too much, they will stop playing all together which bad in the long run because reduced interest in the game leads to death of the game

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In the end, DN has a problem.
That problem is bad WS experiences. The winning team is bored, the losing team is probably bored of losing all the time.

lean violet
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Unlike bls it's not just a waste of 3 minutes. It's a waste of 5d.

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I don't have a solution to suggest for solving the players feel obligated to play a mode that they don't want to play problem

blazing juniper
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Linking WS wins to artifact research bonus was a huge mistake

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Removing individual incentives to WS was a mistake

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Making it so scanning is all that is needed for a loss farm was a mistake

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Making it so playing properly, yet still losing, has no reward other than the same 0-effort was a mistake

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The actual mechanics of WS can be discussed as far as entrainment value goes, as well, but it's a whole other topic

orchid breach
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Locking loss farmers out of WS would also be a mistake

lean violet
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Why?

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They aren't interested in playing anyways

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For the record, I think your suggestion about making them match each other is another valid solution.

orchid breach
# lean violet They aren't interested in playing anyways

They aren't interested in playing perhaps, but they are interested in the rewards. You can't say on one hand that they wouldn't want to play anyway, while on the other complaining that you are matching with them and thus they are clearly queuing up for matches.

It would be a mistake because explicitly pushing players away from your game is always a bad idea.

fierce sluice
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First of all, how do you detect loss farming on programming aspect?

lean violet
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Number of actions?

orchid breach
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There are lots of ways you could try, though they almost certainly be gamed anyway.

lean violet
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These guys went out of their way to do more than just warp in, but most dont bother with more than that

lean violet
fierce sluice
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Then let’s say if there is something that do action count, they’ll just roaming around their gate and finish the required count

lean violet
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They are interested in queueing (aka getting rewards) but not actually playing

orchid breach
fierce sluice
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I have said this in the white star channel, there has to be something to fight for in the white star even if they are obviously losing

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There is always way to avoid punishment

lean violet
# orchid breach Yes...?

So I see your assertion that preventing people from playing is a problem, but I fail to see your argument. They aren't actually playing the game mode. Why should they get rewarded at all?

orchid breach
hollow inlet
orchid breach
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To put this another way, forcing players to do (or not do) something is dumb.
Making players want to do (or not do) something is the way to go.
Locking them out of WS is forcing them. Yes that also will make them not want to play (as much), but it's too heavy handed.
Removing loss rewards entirely would make them not even want to loss farm since it would do nothing for them.

lean violet
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So losing a 5d knock down drag out fight by 1 relic earns nothing? How is that not heavy handed?

fierce sluice
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They get 40 xp for almost doing nothing, easy

lean violet
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I'm not saying bar them from the entirety of game.... They just finished the RS event with 10M. Please let them keep doing that. They clearly want to!

orchid breach
fierce sluice
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The RS event has crystal reward, what do you get for doing WS hard?

orchid breach
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Besides, if your argument hinges on being able to detect loss farming then the counter here is to not give the loss reward if they loss farmed, rather than not at all (eg, they actually tried but lost). Nevermind whether detecting loss farming is reasonable.

lean violet
orchid breach
lean violet
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Sure. I'm all for that too.

My crew, enjoyers of the game mode, want to scan and match people who want to play the game mode. I'm not attached to the solution.

orchid breach
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Great! My point was only that this proposed solution (blocking them from playing) isn't it. That's all. Loss farming is definitely an irritating problem.

latent monolith
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There was supposed to be an 'underdog' component to ws but that hasn't happened either... Sadly the devs took most of the incentive away from doing them since they net no personal reward aside from the participation trophy

blazing juniper
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Removing 40 Corp XP is too heavy handed?

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The fact that people loss farm for 40 Corp XP in the first place is pathetic

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And such trivial amounts causing huge problems in WS is not worth it

lean violet
blazing juniper
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WS will entirely die because the people who want to have fun, can't, long before Loss Farmers walking away from the game mode kill the mode or the game.

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People who don't want to play WS, should not be involved in WS. Period. Tying RS Art Bonus to WS WI s was a mistake for this reason. People who don't want to WS either play it and hate it, or get shames by their corpmates for not contributing.

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THEN address the reason why no one wants to WS

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(Incentive, entertainment)

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If people enjoyed the game mode, they would play it for fun, no incentive necessary.

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That SHOULD be the goal of game design

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Bribing people to play it with rewards should be in addition to that. Not the primary focus

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And yes, rewards should be a part of WS. But people who scan to lose should have no part of it

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If WS rewards were issued based on Corp Rankings over a season of 3 months, then individual losses wouldn't be so bad for people who want to play. And Loss farmers rightfully would get nothing.

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And people who are in weak corps that always lose, but want to WS, would move on to better corps

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And corp limits should be larger, and more corps should be merging

glacial sluice
blazing juniper
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Defending Loss Farmers is just an out of touch mentality. People want to see their corps upgrade SUPER SLOWLY is more important to them than all the people who actually want to enjoy the game mode.

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Need an extra corp slot, boot an inactive player

glacial sluice
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Upgrading for a reward they will never use because they never win so have to Corp hop for bonus anyway

blazing juniper
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They don't need to upgrade their Flagship

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So why loss farm?

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Just to see that stupid "corp level" number go up?

glacial sluice
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Assholes shrug

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I’d guess it’s very few people who start scans without other people even knowing they are in a scan

blazing juniper
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Inactive accounts definitely should have their WS Scanner set to off, so at the very least they have to log into the game to enable it

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But that's minor

coral abyss
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No shows such fun killer. Our community losing overall interest every week, and newly involved players doesn't last long after a few super boring 5 day long of nothingness.
We care to scan on both slots every week but struggling to match with proper opponents. By proper, i mean at least some players show up and do things. Not arguing the gameplay.

i believe current rewarding system have many indirect benefits on corp progress therefore players inside. But apparently something wrong. White Stars are so fun on the paper. I don't wanna lose it. As mentioned before, we just want to enjoy game.

blazing juniper
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Imagine being an rs5 player, putting 2 ships into WS for 5 days, which is a big commitment at that level, only to have a loss farmer show up

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Never mind all the bored veterans that Andreas calls entitled and stuck in their ways.

New players don’t give two craps about WS. It’s 5 days of 2 less ships, for what they perceive to be no good reason

dapper cargo
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I see this went no where like most suggestions. Just died on the suggestion tree.

Sadly this is a HUGE problem and getting worse. 4 ws in a row that are loss farms against us. How fun, super great time to literally not be able to play a game mode.

ember cliff
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Why not to create a mechanism where a corp can challenge another for WS game, or simply find (through chat) another willing to play WS and get matched together?

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So, over time loss farmers won’t get any partners and either would have to play or don’t get participation in Ws.

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It would also benefit young corporations in finding senior ones that could play their ws2 as learning game for their junior players, as both would be of a similar level/experiance.