#EP system clarification

490 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

ripe forge
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Hi there, first time on WT and have really enjoyed the playthrough so far. However, the EP permit restrictions now are pretty brutal.

From my understanding, we're not close to causing environmental harm, yet I, a humble cook can only cook food 10 minutes per hour. Is this intended? Or do some settings need to be tweaked possibly?

I have fellow town members talking about quitting, strictly because they can't play or progress. We're all bottlenecked from playing the game, regardless of profession. Whether you are a heavy polluter or a cook (using an electric stove that pollutes? but I digress).

If we were close to causing environmental damage, the current settings would make sense to me but as it stands, it seems like it is just arbitrarily painful. Please let me know if I'm missing something, which is entirely possible.

Please let me know if this is not the forum for this discussion and I'll delete/move. Thanks for your time.

high hearth
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The reason we are not close to causing environmental damage is because of the law. The PPM per hour generated in total by player activity needs to be below a certain amount or else permanent environmental damage occurs. Currently, people want to generate a lot more pollution than the world can handle (mostly power generation for oil drilling)

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If you wait a few days, we'll have green power, and so there should be a lot more unused pollution capacity for people to use

delicate iris
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We've basically been living in a form of dark age. Currently we're progressing to a form of brown age, where power exists, but still cuts out from time to time. Having more efficient sources of power generation means we get less brownouts.

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Having an EP Law saves the government from having to do heavy-handed and quasi-random manual shutdowns of power until CO2 is in equilibrium again.

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This screen is where you can have a look at the actual numbers our world is constrained by.

image.png
ripe forge
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Right, I just assumed we had some room to spare and still not cause damage but I don't know the math. Maybe we don't.

Edit: Ah, thanks for the screenshot. So we are right on the border. Makes sense. Painful, but makes sense.

Is there any kind of balancing based on the pollution produced. It seems odd that a heavy polluter is able to have tables run the same amount of time as a light polluter.

Especially when we're talking about producing oil (a nice to have currently) vs. making food (a must have).

delicate iris
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It is balanced on the amount of pollution produced. Very basic: If you pollute more, your EP alloted increases. If you pollute less, it decreases.

ripe forge
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So I guess the game is developed such that a cook is a "heavy polluter'. Bizarre.

delicate iris
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Oil is somewhat necessary to make more efficient generators. Combustion Generators and Industrial Generators both produce electricity. Both pollute the air with 1,12ppm per hour while active.

image.png
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Their difference lies in the Industrial Generator outputting 16kW, burning liquid fuel, while the Combustion Generator is at 3kW, burning burnable fuel.

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So same CO2-footprint, but massively more efficient on the Industrial Generator.

delicate iris
knotty ice
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The law just makes sure we don't drown. But besides that, because of veterans who know the law, expect the law each cycle and prepare for the law, they have the ability to game the system.

This makes it so people who are new and don't know the law, can't prep for the law, so they will be behind in EP allocation. Every cycle new players walk into this problem and many of them feel the need to quit because of it.

It is absurd that some people can pollute almost the entire hour because they made sure they had a lot of ways to gain EP at the start of the law. And others who were not polluting at the time, are stuck in a cycle of playing their profession 5 to 10 minutes per hour.

Its nice that we don't drown, but we might need to acknowledge that this isn't the way anymore. People join this server, dedicate countless hours in the first 2 weeks to create/join a community to have it all ripped from them in week 3, when they get to only play 5 minutes every hour.

delicate iris
ripe forge
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@delicate iris Where are you getting the screenshot showing we're on the edge, at 337?

My stove is showing only 18.

image.png
austere pelican
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below that in teh co2 effects who what happens when that 18 per day goes on for to long

delicate iris
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Your screenshot and mine is a look at values over a 10 minute window. Obviously different 10 minute windows. They update every 10 minutes:

image.png
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Remember to mind your units (thx physics professor!). Comparing ppm per day and ppm per hour is a difference in magnitude of 24.

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If my Combustion Generator was active for 24 hours, it would have produced 1,12ppm/h *24h = 26,88ppm/day

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We get a reduction of CO2 in our athmosphere from plants of -500ppm/day. Animals contribute 25, so without us humans, The athmosphere would deplete by -475ppm/day.

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That's 475/26,88 = 17,67 Combustion Generators equivalent machines constantly running.

ripe forge
delicate iris
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Imagine two scenarios:
a) 24 tables running 1h
b) 1 table running 24h

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As soon as you finish an hour without having used up all your EP, you get less the next hour (somewhat simplified).

knotty ice
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I don't want to go into specifics, to avoid more people doin it, but they just maximize their pollution creation the moment the law is created/imported. Even if the pollution is not even helping their profession, as long as they pollute, they get more EP the next hour. So making sure they pollute from the jump, makes sure they will always be top dog in the EP list.

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They do have to use all their EP

delicate iris
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To cite the law:

image.png
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So while you emit below 5-10ppm (total, not per hour or day), you're good. System ignores you.

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Your EP have a half-life of 12-24h (not sure which is used currently).

ripe forge
delicate iris
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So if you have 1000 EP now, but don't use any for a while, you'll slowly decay to 0.

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Your goal is to not over-use the EP you have by having lots of machines, but by having a few machines running constantly.

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1120 EP is also, coincidentally, the amount of EP you need, to let a 1,12ppm/h machine run constantly.

ripe forge
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I have 2 stoves that pollute. They currently run 10 minutes an hour. No idea how a polluter with numerous tables could do anything currently.

delicate iris
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Chances are, with 1 stove running for 20 minutes, you'd be better off.

ripe forge
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K, I might try that instead and just be able to queue less items.

delicate iris
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Yeah, both scenarios have drawbacks to each.

ripe forge
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At least I'd be able to get the important stuff out I guess.

delicate iris
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If you can let your one stove run 24/7, you should see your EP slowly increase, to i guess somewhere around 1k

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If you can let 2 stoves run 24/7, they'd increase to 2k

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Ofc that's in an ideal world, where no one else is competing for them.

knotty ice
# ripe forge Thanks for the response and I understand the reason to be vague. It just feels l...

You are welcome mate and I hope you guys can weather the storm. We see this almost every cycle and sadly the answer always seems to be, just wait a few days for it to get better, for the world to get more green energy.

I hope one day we say no to this mindset and are able to improve the system so people don't feel the need to quit because they can't really play the game after playing for 2 straight weeks and have built a community together.

delicate iris
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Knowledge is power here as well:
If we could get Steam Engines off the grid, by having lots of waterwheels or wind mills, that would also help.

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Less power used by Steam Engines means more CO2-headroom for other machines: Cement Kilns, Blast Furnaces, Stoves etc

knotty ice
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I think if we add a pollution tax to this EP Law, we keep people from over polluting just to gain an EP edge. Or if they see it is worth paying extra money to keep that EP advantage, they would atleast have to charge more for their products. So a player with 300 EP will lose in bulk to a 3000 EP player, but atleast have an advantage on them with a cheaper price.

delicate iris
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Sounds like a fair tax to me.

silk sleet
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the EP system is sorta counterintuitive cause you have to pollute a lot and frequently to make your allocation go up

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people that don't pollute will have theirs go down to almost nothing cause it gives it to other people, so if you start polluting you'll run out of EP super fast

ripe forge
# knotty ice You are welcome mate and I hope you guys can weather the storm. We see this almo...

Completely agree. IMO the methods to “prepare for the law and game the system” should be illegal or taxed. Some kind of system to detract them from doing it. Imagine being a brand new player to the game, you load it up and join WT because it’s a big official server then get to this point and just can’t even play the game. Meanwhile your neighbor is able to keep playing because they had experience with the laws and knew the system. I agree knowledge is power but I can’t imagine the developers want new players having a less enjoyable experience because they get tricked by a system that other more experienced players are abusing.

delicate iris
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The problem is twofold:

  1. You don't know that not polluting makes your EP go down.
  2. If you reach a very low amount, going back up is not that easy.
high hearth
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I don't see how EP's is better than a system where pollution is just prevented if the PPM is too high, why don't we do that instead?

delicate iris
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Also about the tax:
If you don't know that its purpose is to prevent "gaming" the system, then you're probably annoyed by it. "Why do i have to pay to let my Stove run?!"

silk sleet
delicate iris
silk sleet
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all the oil people pollute for an hour and then everyone else gets on and whoops I can't cook anything at all cause we're at max ppm

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it would also make it extremely bouncy, like what do we definie as max ppm? does it turn everyone's machines on after it drops a bit under it?

high hearth
delicate iris
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The way it currently works makes it "not a race", but a marathon. Which is massively preferable to a race, where knowledge is even more power.

knotty ice
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But true its not a perfect solution

delicate iris
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I like the pollution tax as much as i previously enjoyed the electricity tax. The one we sadly abandoned 2 cycles ago, because of complaints by Big Oil™.

silk sleet
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it increases or decreases your allocation based on the percentage you use basically

knotty ice
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The most sad thing about this EP system is you get rewarded for overproducing pollution in a game called Eco.

high hearth
silk sleet
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big oil can pollute for an hour and may not hit their cap but you pollute for 5 minutes and hit 100% so your allocation will go up and theirs will go down

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if you and 10 other people all hit your cap then it still downgrades theirs because htey have a higher base than you

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it's all very complicated and mathy but you get the idea

delicate iris
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From then on out, you have an alarm clock pointing at that interval, preparing everything for a small 10 minute burst in production.

ripe forge
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I’d gladly pay a tax to run my stoves if it provides an even and fair playing field for all. On a server that aims for realism somewhat, an oilfield being able to run tables more than a stove makes zero sense to me. Seems totally backwards. I am lucky that I am able to run non polluting tables. I have other citizens that simply can’t play the game and are switching to other games for now.

delicate iris
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The first 5ppm, you don't see any hint of the EP law, you just get taxed.

ripe forge
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I think that in general, people drawn to this game could understand the reason if it explained well. Sure, the initial reaction would be WTF is this tax? But if it is explained that the alternative is that you can’t even play, they’d likely go with it.

delicate iris
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But they've never experienced not being able to play. And reading explanations is annoying. Who likes to read long boring text, that probably don't concern you?

high hearth
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a pollution tax would be way simple to understand than the current EP system is

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and it would incentivize using pollution on more valuable things, which is good to have

delicate iris
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I agree, wholeheartedly. But be prepared to some pushback from people not understanding its purpose.

silk sleet
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I got pretty mad at the ep law the first time I played too it's pretty weird

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that said when I started it also did allocations daily so that was pretty horrible

high hearth
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on the other hand, for a pollution tax to work, it would have to be scaled to match demand...

ripe forge
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Don’t get me wrong, there would be pushback with either system but at least with a tax, you could play the game. Just have to pay for the privilege until clean power.

delicate iris
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Imho you have to use both systems: EP are important for people like me, who just add taxes into the price of their products and produce away.

silk sleet
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I can guarantee other people would spend just as much as you to get to pollute

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you're up against people selling 10k skids

ripe forge
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Yeah. Probably true, at least until they starve cause their cook can’t make food. LOL.

knotty ice
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You will need both systems because only Pollution tax will still make people overpollute and raise water levels

delicate iris
high hearth
delicate iris
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I love to imagine the complaints about 5€ iron bars, because taxes.

knotty ice
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2 Years ago I tried it and people went bankrupt using refineries, they didn't care until it ws too late.

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Too bad you cant form cartels, because if all cooks stopped selling 50+ food, oil drillers would lose their EP and it would go to the cooks.

silk sleet
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real cartels don't even work lol

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see game theory

high hearth
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And then one cook breaks the cartel and sells food at 2x the price and the oil drillers buy it anyway

silk sleet
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yep

ripe forge
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Honestly, I expected an EP tax when I joined the server. I was surprised and confused when I saw I wasn’t taxed but instead had to take an advanced course in EP credits. LOL.

delicate iris
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If you want to reign in oil drillers: Make an electricity tax.
Price of oil rises, production slightly lowers.
As soon as IGs/Green Energy is out: Price for electricity drops.
That way, people are motivated to prioritize cheaper electricity over using more electricity.

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You basically just need an electricity price that is tied to the energy mix.

lethal lintel
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i've thought about two alternatives to the current system, but haven't thought through their consequences:

  1. the government auctions EP carveouts to the highest bidder - i.e., pay for a guaranteed 1300 eps per hour for the next two days
  2. the same system as now, but your EP allocation fully decays in 2-4 hours, not the current ~48
delicate iris
austere pelican
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|:

austere pelican
ripe forge
delicate iris
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I think @sage storm implemented something similar to 2.

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The problem usually lies in whichever system you come up with to be ready for Oil Drilling to be released.

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Will's System had the issue of "feeling" pretty good, but lacking in transparency to our current system. Imagine if it was based on EP, but you couldn't see your current amount (or everyone elses, for that matter)

sage storm
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Oh good another EP thread

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Let me try to tldr this without reading it

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EPs suck because players that get ahead stay ahead, they don't allow enough pollution for users to be able to play the game, and someone suggests pollution tax/buying EPs

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Criticisms of the first variety are solved with a rewrite of EPs, criticisms of the second variety are invalid because we simply can't increase the carrying capacity of the world, and pollution tax is something I fundamentally disagree with but specifically made possible when I did my rewrite

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If there was any point raised in this thread that I haven't read which is not covered by my summary, feel free to @ me

ripe forge
sage storm
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hard to complain the system is unfair if you cant prove it

delicate iris
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as if lack of evidence ever stopped anyone from complaining

silk sleet
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just join me in complaining about eco instead of white tiger

sage storm
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I guess I should have said, they werent aware that is was unfair, so they didnt think to complain about that specifically

austere pelican
ripe forge
# sage storm Oh good another EP thread

Yikes. Please forgive me for being an experienced player new to the server who is unfamiliar with a system that veterans can and do abuse, at the cost of new players. I would hope feedback from that perspective would be valued as to encourage new players and promote server population growth. I’ll retract and go back to playing the game 10 minutes an hour while veterans who abused the system get the privilege of actually playing the game.

sage storm
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no no, criticism is good, I agree with you, which is why I rewrote the thing. Sadly my revision was causing too much lag and had to be discontinued

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I will eventually rewrite it again

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we just get a thread every cycle asking for changes, but Im the only one who has touched it

ripe forge
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Ok whew. My first read of it was pretty rough.

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Yeah I get it. It must get old. I’m not sure what the right answer but I will say as a new player to the server, I expected an EP tax with a server at this level or organization. But the ep credits system was confusing and me and my citizens, also new to the server, didn’t understand it until it was too late.

austere pelican
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did you by any chance ask others for clarification?

sage storm
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So for people advocating for an EP tax... why arent you buying solars? You pay and get power

scenic bane
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Wow, just caught up on this thread. Interesting stuff! This certianly helps to explain what is going on and how we got here.

I have been loving this playthrough up to this point, but I must agree as a new player that this is possibly the most unintuitive system I've ever encountered in a game. I had expected being a good steward of the environment and minimizing pollution to be things that are naturally rewarded. I also expected something like a tax as enforcement, rather than first polluter takes all.

Honestly, if I hadn't found this thread and tried to spend the time to understand it there is no way I would have ever considered playing on White Tiger again. The experience as a new player very much felt like there was some old boys club that just rigged the game for themselves. It's good to see these things are still evolving.

silk sleet
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a lot of the reason we have the ep system at all is cause without it the world will flood like, comedically fast. on normal servers its not really balanced at all(i.e. smaller servers) and is incredibly hard to outpollute the trees. on white tiger we have so many people you can like speedrun putting the whole server underwater in a day or two if there was no pollution cap

grave agate
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Suggestion: Flood the World play like water world. Buildings on Stilts in the water.. Wealready got the boats! 😄

austere pelican
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We lose if that happens v:

scenic bane
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I don't think anyone is arguing in favor of no cap and just losing the game. Just that this system very predictably screws new players in an extremely unintuitive and un-fun way. I don't see how it could at all be clear to a new player that they will need to pollute as early and as often as possible in order to compete in the long run. That is just so counter intuitive in relation to the rest of the game.

sage storm
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thats because the person who wrote it didnt write it with the goal of intuitiveness or beginner friendliness, he wrote it with the goal of getting EPs to those that will use them the most efficiently

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or rather, those that can guarantee they will use the cap allotted to them

scenic bane
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Fair enough. Currently I have one generator running as much as I can possibly make it run, and my EP allotment seems to be going down every hour. Is that to be expected at this point? It's just too late to get into the EP market?

austere pelican
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there are other people competing for the eps too which is why you would start to lose some even when running full time

sage storm
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I think most people fail to realize just how small the carrying capacity of the world is

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Its like 17 combustion generators is all the world can handle

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And yet:

image.png
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if every polluting machine was turned on at the same time, they would pollute an hours worth of polluting in less than 5 minutes

native token
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this is insane

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you get 9x the permits that i do

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how the hell do i compete!?

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Who wrote the ambiguous law? Who's bennifiting from it? Is that not corruption?

sage storm
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the person who wrote it no longer plays

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the person benefitting from it has rewritten it in the past, and is only using EPs for his oil refinery, as of this moment

native token
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because you were able accelerate

sage storm
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the same person who has spent 100k on solar panels

native token
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i wish i could get some

sage storm
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and another 30k on other oil drillling setup related costs

native token
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if i made 9x the oil, i could

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i live in a house made of pipes

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because im poor as hell

sage storm
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50k of my investment came from non oil products

native token
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how much more money could i make with 9x permits?

sage storm
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Im currently at -45k euros on oil drilling investments

native token
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maybe- 9x the money?

sage storm
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people talk about EP taxes, but then when I use my money to get green energy which lets me do things, they dont like it. 🤷

native token
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Flood the planet, eat the rich

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how is 9x income fair?!

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just answer that

sage storm
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how much did you spend in investments?

native token
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and mreo

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all of it

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all of it

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im in debt from it

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how is 9x fair

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answer that

sage storm
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Well to be fair, you haven't been polluting, you paid someone else to pollute for you

native token
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ive been both

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how is 9x fair?

sage storm
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So we really should be comparing myself to both of you probably

native token
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yes- i had to pay someone else. how is 4.5x fair?

scenic bane
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I'm not sure I follow. You have that much more money to invest in oil equipment because of the advantage you had early on in EPs, right? Everyone is trying to make those investments, only those that pre-gamed EPs are able to acquire the funds to make the investment in the first place. Farfig seems to be more than willing to invest, it's just that at this point the game is kinda rigged since no one can now compete with the prior capilization of the EP system.

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Sure, once you have made such an incredible amount of money that you can afford to be putting solar gens down everywhere then you can hand off the EPs to others, but it's already way way too late for them to really compete.

sage storm
scenic bane
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But you wouldn't have been able to use that equipment without pre-gaming the EP market, right?

sage storm
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I started polluting around the same time as Farfig

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actually he got oil drlling before me

silk sleet
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kinda glad we stripped most competitive aspects out of white tiger cause stuff like this always ends up frustrating someone

native token
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how do you get 9x the income?

sage storm
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I have kept my machines running nonstop for a week now

scenic bane
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I guess by being able to afford to polute a lot before other people could

native token
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aside from gaming the system

delicate iris
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he has green power

sage storm
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Im fully green power and keep everything running without fail

native token
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ok - why do you get to pollute?

delicate iris
native token
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id love some green power, if i made 9x the money i could do

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too*

sage storm
delicate iris
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no one has even tried connecting you?

silk sleet
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I mean there's not some magic trick to it he probably was polluting as soon as the ep law came into effect and has been doing so since

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it was put into place before oil drilling came out I think?

austere pelican
sage storm
native token
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have fun with your power trip guys

sage storm
austere pelican
sage storm
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which would not be helpful to the server at all

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so Id be forced to live with a conundrum

silk sleet
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funnily enough this always seems to happen with our communist power system lol

native token
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9xDwilliams

sage storm
native token
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acting like you're a saint because you could afford green power

sage storm
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like legitimately, my goal has been to get green power so that Im not polluting and taking up EPs as quickly as possible, while also still getting oil products out to those that are making green power

native token
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same

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but how did you get 9x income?

delicate iris
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what is 9x income?

silk sleet
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trying to figure that out myself

native token
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EP credit income = money

silk sleet
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huh?

delicate iris
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i have the same amount he has and i'm no oil driller

sage storm
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Farfig, you split your pollution between yourself and another player. Comparing your EPs to mine is not a fair comparison. Comparing yourself plus Ro_Bison to myself is a more apt comparison

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In which case the two of you make almost 1/3 my EPs

native token
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so two people working together

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should be 1/3d of you?

sage storm
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And your machines have not been running full time

native token
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becuase i dont have 9x the EP credits

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they shut off

silk sleet
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are you like waiting for him to go "just kidding guys! I used my admin commands to give myself extra ep!"

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your machines turn back on hourly when you get credits back

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if you didn't have stuff queued up for 24 hours you were not using all your ep

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like you have to have them running CONSTANTLY to maximize your gain

native token
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he get's 9x the income per update

delicate iris
silk sleet
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you keep saying that and completely ignoring what you're being told

native token
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why is this the system?!

austere pelican
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what system would u like

native token
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why wouldnt it be equal?

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or capped at something sane- like 2x

sage storm
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if everyone were given the same amount of EP, machines could run for 4 minutes out of every hour

silk sleet
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why would it be equal? do you think everyone pollutes the same?

delicate iris
silk sleet
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if there 100 units of pollution an hour split between 20 people and each gets 5, what happens when ten of them only use 1 per hour, now you wasted half the possible pollution

native token
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why would you set up a sytem that can snowball so hard?

silk sleet
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and made advancement take twice as long

delicate iris
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we have a budget of ~40k EP, without our world drowning. if you distribute them to 900 people, we'd be worse off

native token
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id rather drown next to you than live below you

silk sleet
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thats some statement lol

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I'd rather burn down the racetrack than come in 2nd

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that's not an attitude that's gonna win you much support

native token
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i sure wish i knew how to game the system so i can get a power trip

silk sleet
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¯_(ツ)_/¯

austere pelican
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I think its getting a lil bit heated here

silk sleet
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I mean its obvious the useful part of the conversation already fizzled out

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so anyway now everyone knows how ep works!

sage storm
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alright well I guess I just found my motivation to rewrite the EP law again. Guess I know what I am doing this weekend

silk sleet
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and how are you going to improve it

sage storm
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I made a post about it in the last thread, let me see if I can find it

silk sleet
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I'm kinda impressed you touched it at all I never wanted to touch that thing with a ten foot pole lol

delicate iris
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i'm wondering whether i should just put that one IG i have in shop down and power it for a bit

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might not solve the issue, but help a bit

sage storm
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#white-tiger message

sage storm
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but it was through breaking it that I can now fix it when it acts up, and can rewrite it

silk sleet
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huh interesting ideas

native token
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I can't carry on this conversation without getting even more toxic. I wish you the best in life. May each of us learn a little bit every day and strive to improve ourselves.

silk sleet
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not sure about the co2 vs daily pollution bit, wouldn't that take the total pollution pretty close to where the temperature rises and it might go over a bit if there's any kind of lag in the system or small number discrepencies

delicate iris
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it gets reigned in somewhat

silk sleet
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well yeah but we operate basically at minimal co2 usually so it doesn't do much

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unless it do it repeatedly I guess lol

delicate iris
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but there's a reason why the system give out ~37,5k EP, while we technically can only afford ~20k

silk sleet
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what, cause a lot of it isn't actually getting used and its just dead currency?

delicate iris
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human factor: people aren't all that efficient

silk sleet
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yeah

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I mean people also pollute intermitedly so its hard to predict

delicate iris
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if you only gave out 20k, but someone didn't use their 500... that'd be waste

silk sleet
#

I guess targeting total co2 works better for balancing cause its actually looking at what the danger numbers are and if it goes over them it could dial back all the eps to get back under it

delicate iris
#

but then you get a fever curve

#

where every 10 minute slot is a good bit different from the one before it

silk sleet
#

the reserving some ep for government use is nice but idk how that would work in practice either

delicate iris
#

constantly adjusting

#

current system is slower to adjust, but more constant

silk sleet
#

yeah that's the part people hate though

#

as this thread demonstrated lol

#

they come in after not polluting much at all and want to pollute a ton and the system is very slow to react to it

#

even if the ep is theoretically available

delicate iris
#

that's what will' improved on a lot with his system

silk sleet
#

cause it mostly just gives a bunch of excess to the top polluters usually

#

yeah I mean, to a degree there probably shouldn't be so big a gap in ep amounts either if two people are like, polluting constantly and at a high volume

sage storm
#

and we would rather the IGs run full time so that EPs arent being wasted on CGs instead

#

5 times as efficient

silk sleet
#

whats that have to do with government use though

sage storm
#

gov is the one running the IGs

silk sleet
#

far as I know basically all the igs we have right now are private

sage storm
#

nope

#

no private ones

#

too expensive

silk sleet
#

well its definitely not the fed then cause we haven't even built the fed spot yet lol

sage storm
#

well Im sure someone could privately own one, but why would they do that if the power goes into the public grid

silk sleet
#

(or unica)

#

idk

sage storm
#

its 2 of the countries

#

given funding by feds

silk sleet
#

ah

#

isn't most pollution from electricity production anyway

sage storm
#

uhhhh, yes and no

#

Weylin and I are top polluters

silk sleet
#

the only notable producers I can think are blast furnaces, cement kilns and.. refineries?

sage storm
#

well until today

silk sleet
#

don't remember how bad refineries are

sage storm
#

I was 1/3 refinery, 2/3 power

silk sleet
#

oh that's pretty bad lol

sage storm
#

Weylin was all blast furnaces until industry I think?

silk sleet
#

I say blast furnaces but

#

that bascially just means steel

#

since steel takes like 10x longer to make than anything else

sage storm
#

yeah mostly

#

but other things can add up

#

iron

#

quicklime

#

rebar

#

rivets

silk sleet
#

quicklime barely does anything lol

sage storm
#

wait, are rivets in blast furnace?

silk sleet
#

you can make a chest of quicklime in like 5 minutes its kinda nuts

#

uhh

#

I don't remember

#

we don't even use that many rivets do we, usually everyone is making rebar

sage storm
#

but when you need 10k quicklime, thats still like 8 hours of polluting

#

its fast to make, but you need a bunch of it

#

cement is a big polluter too

silk sleet
#

at least on the last server I was on Iw as able to fill an entire chest full of cement with like 5-10 minutes of quicklime crafting

sage storm
#

it just all adds up

silk sleet
#

the cement was fastish too

#

that's why I say a lot of it is steel usually but

#

we also go through a LOT of cement cause of ashlar

#

way more than normal

sage storm
#

quicklime is 3 seconds I believe? so 10k is 30k seconds, which is 8 hours

#

quicklime is used in cement, glass, and steel, so you use it a bunch

silk sleet
#

well that's without a mod right

#

I don't remember if quicklime is single unit either

sage storm
#

thought it was 6 seconds without a mod

silk sleet
#

I'd have to get on and look

sage storm
#

speaking of, I should sleep

silk sleet
#

actually I can't even look anyway cause it doesn't show time in the info window does it lol

#

oh wait it does, right

#

you are actually correct it is 1 unit and 6 seconds, go figure

sage storm
#

Oh

#

Focused workflow works tho I think

silk sleet
#

that said its 1.25 quicklime per 2 cement with upgrades

#

oh right its masonry

#

so yeah it'd be 4 hours ish

#

but I mean that's.. like 15k cement or something lol

sage storm
#

But also glass and steel use it

silk sleet
#

also rivets are from the blast furnace yeah

delicate iris
night zealot
# ripe forge Hi there, first time on WT and have really enjoyed the playthrough so far. Howev...

Hello there, the main problem is, that "EP system" is - by design - a fierce fight among all for very little resources.
It rewards people who knows how it works - and how it works is - if you pollute more, you get more.

So what that means - if you want lots of EPs, you need to pollute, a lot - as everyone else is also polluting a lot - and you have to get THEIR share of the pie.

Its absolutely ruthless, but simple, and the law gives everyone same means how to do it - as number of pulluters one playe has is not limites.

So my hint is - forget this cycle - but next cycle - be prepared.
The EP law will not change any time soon, because its too complex and from the GMs perspective, it works. They dont really care about your player experience, their goal is to have balance in CO2 so the server last till the end.
So next time, be prepared. And when the mechanics hit, get as much polluters running as possible. You MUST fight for your EPs in the pollution battle, or you dont get any.

lucid trellis
#

This is why the EP law was setup 1 week before it was need to give new players a chance to learn about it

night zealot
#

It is what it is. For me, i am willing to help newbies next cycle to set up pollution factory in advance, so they are not surprisedm

storm bluff
#

my knowledge of English is not good, maybe google translator won't make it too complicated.

this law is stupid and has no logic behind it. the only good thing is that it prevents ecological disaster.

solution - grant an amendment that calculates the total number of issued EPs for a certain time unit, gives an average, and anyone who is above the average will be charged a fee for EP. progressive. so feel free to clean up like a madman, but your performance will be expensive. and because, as we know, GOV cannot manage money sensibly (with the exception of the Ministry of Education), so those who would have a below-average EP income would suffer from these selected fees.

and yes, I can't write anything like that, I'm not an ECO programmer. 🙂

#

and the argument - "ignorance of the law is no excuse" - can only be used by a person who wants to make a single player out of it

ripe forge
# night zealot Hello there, the main problem is, that "EP system" is - by design - a fierce fi...

Thanks Velky, yeah I understand the EP game now. It just goes against the natural logic of the game IMO and only people who either read every rule/law in detail or have played here before would know to do that once the EP law hits. And if you've done neither of those, you've just spent 2 weeks building a community only to have the rug pulled out from you and not be able to even play.

My town of 15 or so and I won't be back after this cycle as the law stands now, even knowing the system. As we feel it goes against the spirit of the game and is abusive to new players.

sage storm
#

If we did a revision that didn't allow people to snowball?

#

Cause that's the plan

ripe forge
#

I didn't mean to cause a war here with this thread but overall it's been a good discussion.

My final 2 cents on the matter:

We came here as a group of around 15 players. We were all experienced players having played multiple cycles, some of us dozens, but none of us had played on an official server.

We were drawn here mainly because it was highly populated, had a global currency, had rules to detract teaming. We had all been burned by each of those things in past cycles.

The first couple weeks have been amazing. We've all been talking about how this is probably the best Eco experience we've had so far and everyone was still engaged. Then the EP hammer drops and we can't do anything.

I was a cook and I unknowningly did a lot of things "right" to play the current system. I had a T3 room down, pipes, town power, etc. then got the first stove in the world when it dropped. I had my stove running 24/7, not because I wanted to pollute, but because I wanted to level as fast as possible. Even doing that, I can now play 10 minutes an hour.

Our natural instinct was to do the exact opposite of the system. We were purposely splitting up EP to spread them out. We had non-polluters like farmers and bakers taking generators to reduce pollution and allow the polluters to work. Because in a game where you're trying to not destroy the world, that made the most logical sense to us. Little did we know, we were driving nails in our own coffins.

We were experienced players and I scanned through all the stickys, rules, etc. before joining because we had played before and knew they would be important but IMO brand new players will never read the rules. I doubt they even join the official discord. Likely they will just click "join server" then get to chopping wood. Then quit when they get to this point cause they can't play.

#

So TLDR on my feedback on the server so far:
Have a TLDR document with big bold lettering that simply states some of the core mechanics that are unique here. (I know a lot of it is covered in the existing documents but you're lucky if people open up any of them new to the game)

Like joining a company can be really bad, you will be taxed like crazy. DO NOT DO IT unless you know what you're doing. And you can't leave a company once you join. (We had a small group quit after week 1 because of this when they were taxed heavily). I know it's in the current documentation but having it separate and in a TLDR short summary might help and be at least a little more likely for people to actually read it.

Then revamp the EP system. Encourage the reduction of pollution instead of rewarding the heaviest polluters. That is the natural direction a player not knowing the unique system will lean towards. It's what we did.

And make it fair. Whether it be a tax (which we all kind of expected) or something like "Smelters get X EP credits a hour, Cooks get X EP credits an hour" where heavy polluters get alloted more than non-polluters and light polluters. An even playing field for all. Yes, EP credits would get wasted but at least it's fair and has natural logic behind it. And balancing that allotment would be a challenge as well. There's no easy answer here, we get it. It's complex but the current system simply seems backwards.

ripe forge
# sage storm If we did a revision that didn't allow people to snowball?

Yes, please. I for one would welcome any kind of positive change to the current system. I'm basically begging my town and friends not to leave and stick it out but some of them, especially the heavier polluters who have been affected the most, are really disheartened and might not come back. Even when green power hits. I'm trying to talk them into it.

But any kind of change where they can actually play the game would be most welcome.

sage storm
#

It wouldn't increase the amount of pollution average users can do by much tbh. It would make things more equal, but the truth is that White Tiger is a hard-core server, and steep pollution regulations are part of what makes White Tiger the server it is. Sure it makes week 3 really slow as people can't pollute as much as they want, but it does extend the lifetime of the server out to 4 weeks, when most servers die at 2 or 3 weeks

ripe forge
#

Yeah, I get it. At this point, we'd take a tough pollution situation that is equal over the curent situation. The fact that we can't play the game but others can is salt in the wound. With an equal system, at least we'd all be in this together.

But if that's not what the server's goal is, just know that my guess is it will likely be the same players coming back cycle after cycle. The ones that know the system, how to game the system, and enjoy the EP War mini-game as illogical as it is. It will continue to cause new players to quit mid-cycle and the server population will likely become stagnant and eventually deteriorate I would imagine.

And it extends the life of the server, but at what cost? The group of players that won the system could potentially be the only ones still on the server week 4, having run everyone else off.

silk sleet
#

as a note about the not documenting the ep law thing, the ep law is not actually a basic law in the server it's just something every government ends up importing and using every cycle

sage storm
# ripe forge Yeah, I get it. At this point, we'd take a tough pollution situation that is equ...

After taking this feedback to GMs and Devs, we will likely be adjusting pumpjack craft times to be more in line with vanilla numbers to create a more playable experience for next cycle. Combined with a rework of EPs planned, I think next cycle will be a better experience.
We really do want to give the best experience to everyone, and while we can't cater to everyone's needs, this seems to be 1 area where a slight adjustment should improve overall player experience. We hope you continue to give feedback and we will see you next cycle

ripe forge
warm spindle
willow stone
delicate iris
#

there is a scenario, where lots of people use no EP at all, thus receive the maximum EP reduction.
so the people using theirs partially are the heavy polluters getting an increase. just not the maximum

cursive lynx
sage storm
#

PT Outline

Pollution Tokens (henceforth known as PTs) are my proposed alternative to EPs. Every 30 minutes, the global pollution levels and temperature levels are evaluated to determine the current state of the planet. When the PPM is below 340 and the temperature is less than 0.1 above normal levels, the globe is considered in a "low pollution" state. When the PPM is above 340, but the temperature has risen less than 0.1 above normal OR the PPM is below 340 and the temperature has risen more than 0.1 above normal temperatures, the globe is considered in a "high pollution" state. When the PPM is above 340 and the temperature has risen more than 0.1 above normal levels, the globe is considered in a "dangerous pollution" state.

#

Each half hour, after the state of the globe is assessed, a total number of PTs is calculated and allocated. When in a "low pollution" state, lots of PTs are allocated to allow for PPM levels to rise above 340. When in a "high pollution state" PTs are allocated such that the PPM level shouldn't rise, nor should it fall if all PTs are used. When in a "dangerous pollution" state, PTs are allocated at a much lower level such that PPM levels will fall with the goal of dropping the temperature again.

From the pool of allocated PTs, they will be distributed to one of three groups: (1)Public PTs (2)Government PTs (3)Paid PTs. Public PTs will be distributed equally* among all polluters on the server. If a user has not been polluting, they will receive less than high polluters, but if they consistently use their allotted PTs, they will ramp up in allocation, and should be at an equal level to any of the highest polluters within 3 hours. Because the number of polluters can vary hour to hour, this public PT level could shift between high activity hours and low activity hours quite a bit.

#

Government PTs are reserved for government power plants. Since it is vital that IGs receive priority for powering the global grid, a fixed percentage of PTs are reserved for a district housing those IGs so that they can remain running and increase the pollution to energy efficiency on the server.

#

If a government chooses to, they can opt to allocate paid PTs. When these are turned on, a certain percentage of PTs are put in a pool and allocated based upon money paid. Users can use chat commands to subscribe for these PTs. Each half hour, money will be taken from their account in exchange for an increased number of PTs. Note that these PTs will not be unlimited, as we still need to cap total pollution based on the pollution level of the globe. It would however offer a way for users to "play" more if they decide they want to pay for it.

#

Each cycle the government could choose what percentage of PTs goes into each of the pools (including 0% if they dont want to use a certain pool), and this can also change as the cycle goes along

#

PTs would be an actual in game currency, similar to how EPs now exist and could be tracked that way

delicate canopy
#

can we still call them EPs for consistency, lol

sage storm
#

Calling them the same thing during my first revision has made them too confusing to talk about

delicate canopy
#

EP, bigger longer and uncut?

#

EPBLU for short

native token
#

PTs to the highest polluters and highest bidder creates a snowball situation for those on top

#

any player should be able to access a fair share if they opt in - maybe with a small fee/pt. they should be distributed evenly (up to the ammount requested) to those who choose to opt in

silk sleet
#

doesn't the government pt's part get kinda weird early on before igs exist and the government doesn't have any

crisp wolf
#

I think it could be changed once IGs actually become available by adjusting a couple percentages

sage storm
sage storm
silk sleet
#

yeah I would automate as much as I can cause most people won't even know how the law works realistically lol

native token
sage storm
#

Spreading pollution over time is not bad gameplay

native token
#

gamifying pollution is

sage storm
#

I mean any law is gamifying pollution, that's the nature of a law. You have to define a system that allocates things based on criteria

native token
#

encuraging one to pollute more is bad

sage storm
#

It's not though

silk sleet
#

wasting potential pollution is bad

native token
#

if i have no ore to smelt, i shouldnt be encuraged to burn trash in the meantime, or run a generator to power 1 lightbulb

sage storm
#

Being able to hit max value in 3 hours gives no incentive to pollute for the sake of pollution

native token
sage storm
#

If a player wants to go from 0 pollution to unrestricted pollution in the span of minutes, that's unrealistic to allocate for

native token
#

how so?

silk sleet
#

there's a concept in economics called scarcity, basically things are limited and so they get distributed out by some criteria, usually that criteria is price, i.e. people with more money can get more of the thing and people with less get little to none. Same concept applies here, we have a limited amount of pollution to distribute and you have to find some way to decide who gets to use it and who doesn't.

native token
#

they should be able to put a request in that's processed in a 30min interval

sage storm
#

Because the law has to estimate pollution levels when it allocates and the only thing it can use is historical data

silk sleet
#

the ep laws distributes based on how much pollution it thinks people need to be productive, based on their previous pollution habits

#

there are other ways to distribute of course but they each have their own problems

#

like sure you could sell ep permits, but then only rich people will buy them, or people that can convert less ep permits into more profit

#

and its also hard to regulate in a situation like that, a single rich person could end up buying up all the ep if prices are wrong

#

or it doesn't limit how many they can buy

native token
#

yes- i believe a sale to the highest bidder is bad

sage storm
#

Expecting the law to estimate pollution levels when a player is allowed to change their behavior suddenly and at large levels is unrealstic and will lead to inefficiencies affecting the entirety of the server. 3 hours is a short enough time to ramp up in pollution. And the 3 hours is max allocation. Each player would get half of max allocation immediately

silk sleet
#

yep there's no real silver bullet to guessing how much is fair to give each person

crisp wolf
#

The original system took up to 24hrs to correct itself, 3 hours is pretty good if you ask me

#

Also if someone turns on a light bulb just to keep a gen running, they can be prosecuted for excessive pollution under federal law

#

The gov can also outlaw electric lights in the early days

native token
crisp wolf
#

Eh trash burning can still be considered legitimate use though as far as im concerned

native token
#

yes- but being encouraged to pollute is bad. It's like the "use it or lose it" rules that lead to excessive spending in the US military budget

crisp wolf
#

I'm just curious if you have a specific way to make a system that doesn't work like that, because no one has yet. I think we can agree that the use it or lose it mentality is bad, but right now no one has presented an alternative

native token
scenic bane
#

I was very confused and against the EP law when it first hit, but that was just because I didn't understand what was happening. IMO, understanding it better now, the EP system is effective at the goal it sets out to achieve and I don't think it really needs to be changed.

However, I think it is absolutely required that this be something clearly communicated to new players. Not doing that guarantees that new players will faceplant in a super unfun way, while veterans are lining themselves up for a smooth entry into the new phase of the game. It seems like that really hinders White Tiger's ability to bring in new players and deliver a good experience for them. I've heard repeatedly that this has happened several times in the past at least.

This could very easily be solved by putting clear notifications up somewhere. Game-start popup would be good. White Tiger isn't shy about using signs to communicate, why not a big sign in the capitol letting players know? I've been told, "You wouldn't have read it." That seems like a poor excuse to not communicate it at all. Not communicating it to new players leaves the new player no other option but to conclude that the veteran players don't actually want new players to understand the system in order to better harness the EP system for themselves.

I'm absolutely loving almost all other aspects of White Tiger. This EP issue could be solved so easily with better communication and I strongly believe this would make White Tiger an even better experience for everyone.

silk sleet
#

there aren't usually notifications for non-constitutional laws, the ep law is technically completely optional

native token
#

having such great economic implications, i think it would merit one

scenic bane
#

That may be true, but obviously this is something that is not clear and is having a big impact on the White Tiger experience for a large number of players. That, in my opinion, makes it clear that a notification about this is a justified exception to that precedent.

silk sleet
#

well you'd have to convince dennis of that since nobody else can change the white tiger documentation

ripe forge
#

I would argue that a law that prevents you from playing the game at all isn't optional. I don't understand why there would be any pushback to simply sharing information to players.

silk sleet
#

it's optional because it doesn't exist by default

#

it only exists if the government gets it imported

#

pragmatically speaking its not any different from a randomly written law by the government of the current cycle

#

they could never implement it if they want

#

realistically every single government every single cycle does though since it's the best thing to do

native token
#

there could be a sign up next to MoE at the very least?

ripe forge
#

Ok, then if/when it gets imported, then provide the information.

scenic bane
#

I don't think anything you are saying is incorrect, but none of it seems to actually address the issue at hand that this is a problem that keeps happening.

#

You rightly called out my hypocricy when I said White Tiger was billed as hardcore, but this felt hand-holdy. In retrospect I think you're right, this is more hardcore for such large impact government things to be a part of the game. But what isn't a good "hardcore" gaming experience is secret information that insiders have that new players are not getting that gives such a huge advantage at a very critical stage of the game's evolution.

#

Gotta step away for a little bit. Thanks for engaging in the discussion.

silk sleet
#

unfortunately it's just one of those things that's very hard to solve.
You could possibly get it added to the server documentation, but that would be tricky, and also be the only case of documentation existing for a law that may or may not even exist. Also even if it does, many(most probably) people won't read it, or won't even notice it is there.
You could get signs or something stuck around in game, but that's a per government thing and the government changes.. every week, or can change every week, and every new cycle its often a completely new group, so it's entirely up to them to both think to put a sign down and then to actually do it.

lilac gate
#

Shadow that seems to be a falwed argument you are making based off 96DWilliams statements from early on in this thread. It may be optional but you folks elect each other early on in the game and establish the optional law ever single time. From that perspective it is no longer an optional law but a built in advantage for a small group of players and is not easily identified nor information provided so all players can make informed decisions at the mid-game point. This is a definite turnoff for players coming in. Should be well established now that we as a group have been able to play fairly well not knowing all of the rules up front. We will continue to play, but for those coming in fresh may not be so willing to ever come back to play WT again which in turn, because it IS an offical game server, runs the risk of alineating a potentially growing community

sage storm
silk sleet
#

not sure what you mean by 'you folks' everyone can vote for who gets in office, which is pretty clear with all of them banding together to vote farfig in as an mp now the last week, also the ep law generally isn't instigated till week 2 ish because it usually gets put in right before oil drilling comes out.

lilac gate
#

because that is what we saw early on in this wipe that the same 6 people were being elected to all government positions

silk sleet
#

it's not usually the same people actually

lilac gate
#

we did not make an effort to run for any elections as to not upset the apple cart and observe how things were done here as everything seemed extremely overpriced for the first 5-6 days

ripe forge
#

I don't understand the pushback to share the information on the system or arguing semantics about technically what kind of law it is.

Just share the information. Simple. So everyone knows they need to start polluting now. The fact that there's pushback can't help but make one draw the conclusion that some may not want the information to be shared.

silk sleet
#

okay, and who is sharing the information?

#

it's easy to say 'fix the problem' it's hard to provide an actual solution

ripe forge
#

It takes 2 minutes to drop some signs down.

silk sleet
#

well blame naarke or someone for that then?

#

I'm not even in the government this cycle

ripe forge
#

I'm not blaming you for anything. I just don't understand pushback for sharing info.

silk sleet
#

I don't have any pushback

#

you're just making it sound like you want some guarentee someone will share this information in the future

#

and I can't give you that, nobody here can

ripe forge
#

Well, I'm sure new players would appreciate it so they don't lose players and have the experience we did

native token
#

take it as feedback then- for anyone else who enacts such a law

lilac gate
#

so if you have not been been in the government for this cycle, why are you so vehemently defending against the suggestion of providing notification to players of the EP law?

silk sleet
#

telling you how it works isn't defending against it?

scenic bane
#

To be clear, I don't think anyone is saying, "Shadow, this is your fault." You just happen to be the one in the conversation at the moment.

lilac gate
#

this still comes across as justification that a small group of individuals will control the game from mid-point on as this is a counter-intuitive approach from a game supposedly designed to allow for destroying an asteroid while at the same time not destroying the planet from pollution trying to get there

scenic bane
lilac gate
#

threch, you muted>

#

?

sage storm
#

This government has been one of the worst in communication. As an MP laws have passed without me even realizing because the other MPs pass it without me, so... its definitely been an issue

silk sleet
#

yep the governments and how they act vary a ton from cycle to cycle

sage storm
#

We have more MPs this week though, so hopefully that part at least will be better... maybe...

lilac gate
#

don't get any of us wrong, we are not disagreeing with the law, it's just that it was a real smack in the mouth when all of our midgame production is halted based on a law that says you should have been polluting all along to build up pollution credits

scenic bane
#

Yeah, that definitely makes sense to me. I'm not here to make any demands, I'm sure keeping all these plate spinning is a big job that I don't understand. This is just feedback we feel pretty strongly about after investing a lot of time in White Tiger.

ripe forge
silk sleet
#

honestly I hated the ep law and complained about it when I first ran into it too(granted back in my day it was way worse and it took 24 hours to even start adjusting but yeah lol)

#

but most people go through that same experience, it seems stupid and punishing and makes no sense until you start to get how it works then its like "oh.."

#

they have adjusted it a lot over time but it's a tricky thing to improve

native token
#

a better new player experience is how you grow a game

silk sleet
#

part of why its like this is cause the game's basic pollution mechanics just sorta suck and we have to deal with them on a giant server with way too many players so the ep law was born

scenic bane
#

I totally get that, but Eco is such a huge investment of time to play a wipe that "Well, you'll get it next time" doesn't seem like an adequate way to welcome new players. Communication would totally avoid the current situation where you just kinda have to have a bad experience in the first wipe in this way. So many players who otherwise played the wipe in good faith and were having a great time just quit before they even understood what was happening.

lilac gate
#

so maybe a better option is a method whereby the active laws are easily opened on the government tab just like voting so people could go and view what the laws that have been passed are and notes could be added to explain how it works within the game mechanics. Just another thought

silk sleet
#

yeah I mean, some of this stuff is basic eco thing like the law ui's, some of it is white tiger specific things like the ep law

#

the tools for documenting stuff is pretty limited atm

scenic bane
#

I think a big ole' sign in the middle of the capitol, colorful bold text, "If you pollute you need to know this on White Tiger" with an explanation or maybe a link to a more detailed explanation of how the EP system works, and BOOM. Problem solved. If that was there and I still didn't know, then that's on me and I would be a silent little mouse on this issue. That may seem drastic to those who have been here a long time, but as a new player, it would have been incredibly welcoming to have that communicated.

I think we all get where each other are coming from at this point though, so I don't want to just circle around it again. Thanks again for hearing us out and engaging in the conversation!

mystic knot
#

And still no one read them.

lethal lintel
lucid trellis
#

And we did make the law 5 days before oil hit so all had a chance to see and learn it. But it did nothing to oil hit as we did not use all of the EP's before that

night zealot
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well, this is a type of sign people will read:

image.png