#Motion to appeal the the findings of a Federal Inspector and seek damages for discrimination

188 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

ripe parrot
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On grounds of discrimination in the application of "Building violates III. PUBLIC LAW § 1 Construction".

I have been cited for "unrealistic" placement of my pumpjacks. To my knowledge, no other crafting bench has been considered a building up until this point. Is a 10ton robotics workbench on a wood floor okay? In addition, my pumpjacks have been placed and plumbed in a realistic, albeit unconventional, manner. If there is such a requirement for crafting stations, the law should explicitly say so and apply to all.

I am seeking $6000 in damages to recoup the time, cost of building, and personal economic stagnation for the construction of my pumphouse to the (above and beyond) state where it currently is over the last 2 days; in which time, my direct competition was to afford and accelerate with several new solar panels.

edit: grammar

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glacial hound
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@ripe parrot you should know this is a motion against me, as i make the decisions, trooper just brings them to my attention

sleek harness
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I sign up to defend DarkMukke in the court of law.

edgy basin
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you can't by server law do pumps on lvls

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need to be on ground lvl

ripe parrot
edgy basin
ripe parrot
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it's a pump- pumps can be chained and stacked.

edgy basin
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that is not a pumpjack

ripe parrot
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fair- i withdraw that point

edgy basin
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and a pumpjack take in from under it not at the front

ripe parrot
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nothing is preventing multiple pumpjacks from being chained in real life

edgy basin
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for I can't

ripe parrot
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find a pic of a floating heart on chains

edgy basin
ripe parrot
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is that 20 stories tall?

edgy basin
ripe parrot
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so pumpjacks CAN be chained

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it's just impractical

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you would build a bigger one

edgy basin
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no they can't. they can't pull all on the same pipe

ripe parrot
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whats stopping the cables from being linked?

edgy basin
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you do know I am the one who do fineds right

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I can just go fined you now if you like

ripe parrot
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if that's the system in place, you are free to

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im not making any personal attacks here

edgy basin
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go in game and make a platform put a jack on it and see where the pipe is

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they and in the way of the one below

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<@&451463502184448010>

strong oxideBOT
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Request Received

Your call for a Game Master was received. As soon as one is available, they will reach out to you. Please make sure your request contains sufficient information, but no sensitive information - that is only to be read by the GM.

ripe parrot
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how can someone have a blast furnace under a wood house? I'm trying to say that there should be a suspension of disbelief to an extent

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and the line has been very arbitrarily drawn across my forehead without precedent

edgy basin
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I can't remember who say it was not right and sines it has not been allowed

ripe parrot
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show me a picture of pumpjacks in a town center please

edgy basin
ripe parrot
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that's not equivalent but I commend the dedication

edgy basin
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thx

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I am not here to be sour but this is just how it is. I give you 24 hours to fix or I start to fined you

ripe parrot
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i do not have the means to make the requested modifications

edgy basin
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then you need to remove some

ripe parrot
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is this the highest cour of appeals? 🙂

edgy basin
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going to need a GM judge

sleek harness
sleek harness
# ripe parrot you would build a bigger one

Correct, and since the game doesn't provide you a bigger one, I offered you a solution in which if you encase them all in a block of Corrugated Steel, we can consider it one bigger machinery.

ripe parrot
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is there a specific way to appeal to GM judge? i see they were already pinged

sleek harness
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You'll have to wait for a GM to respond here since one was already pinged.

ripe parrot
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ic ty

tame jasper
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Our resident judge is on vacation and most other GMs are busy. At this point, please wait for a judge hopefully sometime tonight

uncut edge
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So..
This is labeled as a "motion to appeal"
Is this intended to be brought to a court case or not?
"motion to appeal" tells me that you are trying to appeal to the person who gave you the "fine".
I would like to know if you are doing that or if this is intended to be brought to court.

sleek harness
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@ripe parrot ^

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My understanding is that they'd like to take it to court

ripe parrot
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Yes, sorry for the poor wording

uncut edge
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... That still isn't clear lol

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1 or 2
"yes"

ripe parrot
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I received notice for an infraction

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so I wanted to take it to court

uncut edge
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  1. You are attempting to appeal the gov to remove infraction
  2. You are straight taking it to court
ripe parrot
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I appeard to have failed at 1) already

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so i believe that i'm on 2)

sleek harness
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For 1., they already discussed with Naarke above who is the person issuing the fines and Naarke denied the appeal.

tame jasper
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You can't appeal a fine in court that hasn't been issued yet. The point of an appeal is to reverse a prior decision - if that decision has not been made, there is nothing to reverse. If the fine has been issued, please post proof of it here and we can begin the court case. If the fine has not been issued yet, then your option is to work with the acting executive authority to come to a decision.

ripe parrot
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I will separate the two issues at hand. I am suing for damages caused by discriminatory standards imparted on me.

prisma surge
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He's tried to deal with that authority but they evidently lack the maturity and instead conducted themselves with no professionalism at all.

ripe parrot
prisma surge
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You misunderstand, both in this thread and the other thread the "officials" have conducted themselves with no professionalism what so ever and have not engaged in any discussion at all. Personally I would be motioning for these people being removed from their titles and the titles being put up for election to be held by people who do have the maturity to hold such a role without resorting to tyrannical behaviour. You have in this thread and the other clearly laid out your concerns and have attempted to abide by their (arbitrarily enforced) rulings. In doing so you have put yourself at a significant disadvantage financially and, due to the EP issue as well, made it so that you cannot compete at all in your chosen market. To completely comply with their request would essentially further penalise you and force you into having to abandon the profession of oil drilling totally. Now that you have the threat of a fine above your head (has this been applied) and with the fact that your efforts have been focused on their demands, I believe you should be instead pushing for;

  • annulment of any fine issued or threatened
  • damages to cover the capital outlay already expended to comply with their requests
  • damages to compensate you for the time expended and the disadvantage this has put you at because of the way the EP system works
  • punitive damaged against the players individually for conducting themselves in such a manner
  • re election of those titles
ripe parrot
prisma surge
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And I am sure quite rightfully frustrated with the position you have been put based on the opinions of a handful of individuals who have acted in what appears to be a discriminatory way, whether intended or otherwise

ripe parrot
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Thanks for your support. I plan on laying out an argument after work. An "official server" should not be a newbie meat grinder.

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These laws are counter intuitive and go against the spirit and namesake of the game

prisma surge
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All five of them are, sadly, to a degree a meat grinder. An interim solution until this issue is solved may be the movement of the pumpjacks out of sight through digging the ground up, a time consuming and tedious task but one that would at least satisfy the current elected officials and their unelected deputies until such time a ruling be brought on this case

ripe parrot
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Visit my setup at some point - it's looking good

final sedge
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I take this one for the damages

glacial hound
final sedge
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Can someone give me a TL;DR on what "layered" here exactly means?

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The screenshot shows pumpjacks next to each other, with layered I would understand "above each other"

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Just a few things upfront:

  • Punitive damages do not exist in our system of european law
  • You cant appeal what hasn't happen, if no fine was issued, cant appeal
  • You can ask for damages that were happening due to following government instructions
glacial hound
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you can see pump jacks in this picture through the hole on the floor above

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final sedge
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And the government has decided that vertical layering of pumpjacks would be fine if the house was improved to steel?

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Why is that?

glacial hound
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Cosulting with my appointed impsector, we agreed that for realism, larger pumpjacks do exist in the world. So if the person in question could make it look like one big pump jack artistically, we would be ok with it having layerd pumpjacks inside. But just as with the decision on layered farming, we wanted it gated behind a tier of materials.

final sedge
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Was that argumentation made aware to the user? I don't see it on the sign.

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Based solely on the sign I'm honestly "WTF?"

glacial hound
prisma surge
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As ultimate decision maker on these matters you also did not directly intervene when your unelected representative communicated his complaints to the complainant in this potential case, as such they have suffered significant financial and time loss in complying what appears to be arbitrarily administered rules which were not properly communicated

glacial hound
glacial hound
final sedge
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May I ask what Mr. Cakes is doing here, legal counsel? Second owner of the home?

glacial hound
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I have no clue

prisma surge
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I'm trying to ensure that the elected representatives enforce rules which are;

  • communicated
  • fair
  • do not destroy the business of an individual who appears to have complied with all requests
final sedge
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Yeh, but what do you do in a courtroom of something you're not affected with?

prisma surge
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Are we not all affected by the workings of government when government can be seen to be acting in a way not conducive with fairness

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I will also mention that this court case has not commenced as as yet no judge has identified the exact case that has been brought, so currently it remains a public forum for debate

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If I am incorrect I will withdraw from further communication

final sedge
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Was the sign placed before or after the agreement in the other chat?

glacial hound
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@sleek harness ^^

sleek harness
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Hello,
The sign was placed before the agreement and updated after the said agreement. It initially asked for the removal of the layered pumpjacks. After the agreement, the text on the sign was updated asking that the entire collection of pump jacks is encased in Corrugated Steel, for it to be considered a bigger machinery with greater capacity, as well as the deadline for the changes to be made. This is the latest actualisation of the sign:

image.png
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After creating this thread, Nueton has discussed with Naarke and Naarke has given them a new, and final, 24 hour window for them to comply or get sued fined which I have updated in WT40 Federal Inspector Findings but haven't managed to update in-game as well.

final sedge
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Okay, then we have a problem here:

  1. Pumpjacks are objects pursuant to III. §1 (1) and placing them above each other is indeed unrealistic placement for this type of object.
  2. The government made a deal with the claimant to keep the layered pumpjacks unaffected in exchange for creatively interpreting the whole building as a single pumpjack when the claimant changes the building in a specific way.
  3. The government has no right to do that, as the law doesn't allow making governmental exceptions to it. The government has limited discretion on what it considers to be realistic, but repurposing violating pumpjacks in a building into creatively considering the whole building a pumpjacks goes massively beyond their discretion. Additionally, if the law had the ability for the government to make exceptions, those would need to be well justified and excerted with discretion as well. In this case the building has economical implications, as placement of pump jacks in this way give economical advantage over other players that follow the law and have a much higher need for land area. The building also isn't of any cultural value, so that I can't see that an exception could have been made even if the law allowed.

Consequently the violating state is to be fixed, which means the layered pumpjacks need to be removed.
The actual question is if the deal with the government should be considered a private agreement or rather an administrative act. Opinions?

prisma surge
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Surely by threatening to fine and placing notifications whilst acting in the capacity of the administration therefore this is not a private arrangement, as the arrangement is between the representatives of the government and a private individual

final sedge
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Well, then it would be a "public agreement", still, should it be considered ordered, given the original order was to remove the pumpjacks, which was lawful?

prisma surge
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Unless those representatives claim to not be working within their remit as elected officials/unelected appointees, in which case it would be argued to be a private arrangement

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I would argue that the original request to remove the pumpjacks is indeed lawful, all actions beyond that point to be unlawful actions by the government acting outside the remit of the laws

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When the case goes to court I would suggest to the complainant that they push for seeking damages in complying with this unlawful agreement, I would suggest also that they pursue not only the material cost but the cost in time that was expended as well as loss of potential earnings as their business has been impacted severely due to the EP system being such that while they have spent time and resources on fulfilling the request, they have fallen behind significantly versus their competitors who have not had to comply with what I am sure they thought was a request within the remit of the government. I try to see what argument the government may lawfully have to defend this potential case and cannot see any other than that they misinterpreted their role and the scope of their powers, for which perhaps a public apology or resignation would be appropriate, if the court deems their actions to have been detrimental as a whole.

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This is by far the most intrueging case i've read in a while and will be watching it as an outside observer with interest

final sedge
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The case is in court!?

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You are like constantly standing up from the viewers tribune to yell into it 😄

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That's also why we want court requests in #courtroom, because there we can simply mute people. We can't here.

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See last announcement in #law-examples

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Eh #law-gazette

prisma surge
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Then I must be mistaken as it is usual for a judge to take the case and mute the courtroom except for those parties who have a direct interest in the case

sleek harness
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I do not know if it is known, but I for example lack the permissions to post in #courtroom, I would assume others do too, hence why everyone did it in here. LE: It seems like threads can still be created but it is a little counter-intuitive because of how Discord handles it.

final sedge
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I tried to like tell you three times to self-mute 😄

glacial hound
final sedge
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The sign is required by the constitution latest once the action was done (or any other method that clearly lets people know whats going on)

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I don't get what that has to do with the whole problem at hands.

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The original request was undoubtedly lawful.

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But then the government made a unlawful deal that caused the damage.

final sedge
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And in thrads we can actually fine control permissions 😄

ripe parrot
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I'm at work, I will rejoin the conversation when I get home in 6hrs

final sedge
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Check the older threads

glacial hound
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I am happy to re-imburse the spent steel, if the pumpjacks on the unlawful layers are removed

final sedge
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I would honestly prefer a mediated deal between the parties on how to handle this as well. A ruling solely on the law will be complex and I have a feeling neither party would be ultimately happy with it.

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But if need be, that's what I'd do tomorrow.

glacial hound
sleek harness
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Since I am the one who proposed the unlawful deal, I would like to add some more clarity as to what I did if it is relevant:
Layered farms are also problematic and with farmers, an agreement can be made where they can make their farms more realistic using pipes or viaducts and artificial lighting. This way they get to maintain the efficiency that layered farms provide, and layered farms exist in real life as well.
For the sake of this being a game and it not being able to cover every aspect of real life, I wanted to provide a similar opportunity for Farfig, where if the whole structure was encased in metal, it could be considered one big machinery, since the game doesn't provide better tools to do the extraction and extracting on fields without a high yield has a very drastic change on the oil produced. This was also done while taking into account the fact that there aren't many spots that yield "1" oil for extraction and to also give those who didn't get to snipe the best spots a chance at being competitive with others.
I do understand however that this was a decision beyond my powers, and just wanted to add some more clarity to my thoughts process. I'll definetly learn from this when applying the law in the future should I be a Federal Inspector again.

glacial hound
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@ripe parrot if you want to mediate on Dennis; comments above, would you be happy if i re-imburse any spent steel and you remove the layered pump jacks ?

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because if you just seek damages, and i pay those damages, after that you will still be breaking the law, and still be fined for it every 24h that passes.

ripe parrot
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I will read and evaluate when I get home from work. I have no problem disabling all violating jacks. My power doesn't support most of them. I was hesitant to remove them entirely because I sunk a lot of cost into labor on them and I am in crippling debt

final sedge
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E.g. if you both came to terms on what action is taken to make a lawful state and reimburse the stuff caused by a deal that was not lawful to begin with.

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Ultimately it is a deal, both parties agreed, but one party didn't actually have the power to make it.

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The question on who is then responsible for what comes out of it is actually pretty complex.

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Given the party that wasn't allowed to make such deal, didn't actually force the deal on someone.

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Now we all have a feeling on what should be.

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But written law is not always what should be.

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Hence that is my fair warning that a deal might be the best for everyone.

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Up to "Remove these jacks, get more plots to spread them out instead" everything was okay.
Then government offered to "ignore the violation" if "x" is done. But government was not allowed to offer this.
Now the other party agreed to this in good faith, though.

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But the government didn't actually actively order to change the building, then it would be clear cut.

sleek harness
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I have logged on to check if the issue has been corrected, and I have found the following which I will leave here in the eventuality they are relevant to the case:
There are 3 hours left until the last 24h deadline expires and fines start to be used as the pumpjacks are still layered.
Despite DarkMukke's willingness to pay (to probably be done with it and move on), for me 6k compensation seems unfounded and exaggerated. I have counted the amount of corrugated steel blocks placed and the current building only uses ~400 Corrugated Steel which at an average price of 4 Euro on the market would cost around 1600 Euro, which is far from the 6000 claimed, even including the few hours of labor that likely took to construct this.

Looking at Farfig's bank account, he currently holds around 5000 Euros and he also has a loan contract for which he has to pay 11000 Euros in about 5 hours. With all due respect, this seems like an attempt at grabbing the missing money to pay their debts.

Lastly, when I was made aware of the layered pump jacks and inspected the property a few days ago, I also discovered a possible rule break or EP evasion through the following mechanism:
=== The middle plot is claimed by Farfig and houses 24 Pumping Jacks and no power generation means apart from a windmill.
=== The plot on the right is claimed by Ceelish and contains 2 solar generators and a combustion generator. There is no plausable reason why the generator would have been placed there as Ceelish does not live close to the location and there were other, more advantageous locations where they could have gotten water from. Therefor, my suspicion was that Ceelish provides energy for Farfig so that Farfig doesn't consume Emission Permits.
=== The plot on the left contains a refinery and two combustion generators. The plot is owned by Ro_Bison and they are not specialized in Oil Drilling, therefor the reasons why they might need a refinery are limited. There is also no storage on their claim that could output the products from the Refinery. The only stockpiles in the area are owned by Farfig and the Refinery seems to be used exclusively by Farfig.
I have tried to contact Game Masters about my suspected collaboration outside of a company when I discovered it ( #1206275504663953450 message ) and have managed to get in touch with Williams about 48 hours ago and they inspected the location. I found out today that Williams has spoken to the involved parties and that they have claimed they will cease this and remove the access from the Refinery.
In the last 48 hours, Farfig has placed a Refinery on their own plot and has built two solar generators across the road from their jackpumps site. However, the other means of generating power by the other 2 parties remain in place and functional. I believe that some money has also gone into those recent developments and Farfig might be hoping to recoup those losses as well, though those costs have not been generated by our deal.

With all of this in mind, I believe that 6000 euros would be a gross overestimate of what would be needed to recoup the losses that resulted as part of our deal and given the dodgy practices that I have witnessed this seems to be an attempt at some quick money. Should have Farfig been honest in their approach and not tried to cheat the system and generate more oil than others, I believe they wouldn't have ever been in the position that they are now.

Here are some photos tha back some of the above mentioned findings: https://imgur.com/a/RQ2RKah

ripe parrot
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My power generation agreement with Ro_Bison was documented via contract. Ceelish received no kickbacks or special treatment and placed the power generators in self interest. I only have one of my material purchases documented but I was well on my way to pay off the loan before hand

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I will write in more detail after I get home from work

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Also... Objection, relevance?

sleek harness
ripe parrot
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This was my second major purchase (an attempt to enclose below the main structure) which I documented and sent to @sleek harness

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The first one I didn't screenshot because I thought that was all that was required of me and I thought it was a fair compromise

mental ermine
# sleek harness I have logged on to check if the issue has been corrected, and I have found the ...

Lastly, when I was made aware of the layered pump jacks and inspected the property a few days ago, I also discovered a possible rule break or EP evasion through the following mechanism:
=== The plot on the right is claimed by Ceelish and contains 2 solar generators and a combustion generator. There is no plausable reason why the generator would have been placed there as Ceelish does not live close to the location and there were other, more advantageous locations where they could have gotten water from. Therefor, my suspicion was that Ceelish provides energy for Farfig so that Farfig doesn't consume Emission Permits.

Objection! Dear honor I disagree. It was a sunny place I liked to generate solar energy. More serious: Providing electricity to my deed is not illegal. Electricity jumping over to other plots is also not illegal. That power is shared to nearby deeds is a common sense (mechanical and electrical) and also not illegal thus sharing EPs can not be illegal. What exactly is EP evasion?! Something like some random dude giving his Emission Permits for the Industrial Generators which power is used by 60 people? This whole EP "evasion"/collaboration discussion has to stop NOW. This also goes for the RO_Bison EP helping topic with 2 combustion generators and a refinery. This should not have been adjudged to be removed, it was a wrong decision in my eyes.

Additionally I was never bribed nor did I ever receive any revenue from this - it only had the effect that more of the rare EPs were pushed into oil drilling and their products which were all the time available for sale to the public. And I already feel a stress relief on this market - last cycle we had to fight a lot more days for such a situation. so far from my side - greetings

final sedge
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I assume that means you don't wish to come to an agreement of any sort?

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And please don't mix some other case into this one, that makes it very hard to follow ...

sleek harness
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Farfig said that they want to quit oil drilling. I offered to buy their plot and machineries for 6000, the amount they needed to pay their debt, and they refused saying they want to build a museum there, therfore, I believe they still plan to continue with the case?
@ripe parrot can you please confirm?

ripe parrot
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Yes- I am not satisfied with selling my plot.

sleek harness
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Would a bigger amount of money convince you otherwise?

ripe parrot
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I have complied with the request to remove the pumpjacks and would like to turn that area into a museum

sleek harness
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I understand. And you still seek compensation from the MoI, correct?

ripe parrot
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I'm still catching up on this chat - is Dennis an arbitrator or judge? I still believe that I was unlawfully targeted for stacking pumpjacks as there is reason why it couldn't work as they provide mechanical power to a cable in real life and there is no reason why they couldn't be chained together

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it's more realistic than a water wheel powering something 100 ft away

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but if we are past that point, thats fine. I would like to recoup my losses in building and time to pay off my debts

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as Trooper said, I am retiring from the oil business anyways

final sedge
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I am a judge.

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Insofar my mention before was a ruling - stacked pumpjacks violate the law.

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Not sure what you specifically mean with stacking pumpjacks. The use of pumpjacks above other pumpjacks was the problem.

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What one can see in this picture.

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The vertical placement of a jack over the other jack.

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There is no problem to place 500 of them next to each other, but not 5x5x5 cube above each other.

ripe parrot
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Ok, thank you for the clarification.

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Is there a way to unlearn a skill? can I pledge to never drill oil again in exchange for some to recoup my investments in my scroll/MU/time? This whole process has defeated me and I would like to focus on my museum.

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Ideally I would like to place the pumpjacks as inactive art pieces as a sculpture park as well. Would there be placement requirements for that?

sleek harness
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I am going to bed, but before I go I would like to add that Farfig wanted to keep the pump jacks in place and have them inactive. We discussed this in DMs and I told them that I wouldn't like that because even if turned into a museum and made realistic in some way, there is no way to confirm that the pumps won't be used and would require constant checking, or it might raise complaints from others seeing it on the map. https://i.imgur.com/L86yTWh.png

LE. From a strictly lawful point of view, my request would be unlawful since my responsibility is just to check if its realistic and if it were turned into a museum and the machines would not be operated but stacked and separated by floors, it could be considered realistic to a cerain degree. However, I am trying to not create a precedent where we have to constantly police people and make sure they stay true to their word and actually keep the jack pumps disabled.

final sedge
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That would be a whole new case, honestly. The law isn't clear at all on if the realistic placement can be different when the usage purpose gets different.
I assume a museum could show pumpjacks that technically can't work on multiple levels - but which museum shows X pumpjacks stacked over each other?
One thing is for sure though, a player can't be required to do something solely due to it otherwise not easily controllable by the government.

final sedge
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Ruling:
The defendant is ordered to reimburse the costs that had to be borne by the claimant due to agreeing to and following a unlawful agreement in good faith. The costs are to be determined by the actual price paid for the amount of steel bought and used for this purpose, if the price cannot be proven by the defendant or isn't provided by them, by the current market price. (The government is supposed to determine that with the claimant) Additionally the claimant is to be reimbursed at the minimum wage rate of $100 per hour for a fictionally determined work time of 8 hours, respectively, if higher, the actually used time insofar the claimant can prove it. The claimant is free to prove what income he could have reasonably expected if he had not needed to instead put effort and time into fulfilling the unlawful agreement, insofar he can't do that a flat amount of $1000 is awarded. Insofar the claimant seeks damages for personal stagnation or the development of the direct competition the request is dismissed as inadmissible.

It has already been determined that the government overstepped their discretion: In offering the claimant an agreement to ignore an unlawful state in exchange for a change of the building itself they gave the claimant an option beyond the removal of the unlawful state, which the claimant could and trust in good faith. They are not responsible for the government offering something that wasn't permissible and didn't have to know that being the case. The government insofar must assume responsibility for mistakes by their executive personnel.

glacial hound
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@ripe parrot @sleek harness
money has been transfered

image.png
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6000 euros as requested, even though this is in good faith as it is much more than was calculated on the materials but it is hard to tell what the labour was, so we set that the min required by the ruling wich was 1000 euros

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unless there is any furhter requirments in this case, this post can now be closed

final sedge
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Eh, I'm not going to complain you paid more, but in that case you could also just have agreed to the deal to begin with, because what I awarded was $800 for work, $1000 for lost income and the exact amount for the materials, respectively higher for the first two when proven.

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Well, I assume in any case @ripe parrot's request is sufficiently cleared then?

glacial hound
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Both trooper and I must have misunderstood your ruling then

final sedge
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The reimbursement consists of the exact paid price of the steel that was used to fulfill the agreement, if that cannot be proven, its current market price. Additionally $100 for every work hour to change the building, I am assuming 8 hours, but if the claimant can prove he used more, then that value. And last but not least a flat $1000 for income lost due to having to do something else or the actual value if higher and can be proven. (E.g. what they would have likely earned if they had not been doing other stuff)

So the minimum payment is $800 for work, $1000 for income lost + actual / market price of the used steel. (I don't know how many blocks that is, someone needs to count / the claimant needs to say).

If the claimant can proof higher work time / lost income, then that is to be paid.

But I guess $6000 will just do ...

ripe parrot
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I am satisfied with the 6,000

sleek harness
ripe parrot
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The game won't let me pay the last penny