#Motion to sue Federal Government for payment for Tunnel construction

63 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

slender dirge
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info within

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I would normally let it go, but recent conversations with MoI, and Troopers and Elmeyes suggestion to sue, finally conviced me to give it a try.

So basically. What went on:

I wanted to build the Federal Tunnel - which Federal Gov. wanted to make as part of general infrastructure development. I wanted to get paid by price estimate after completiton of the works by contract. I was told by MoI, that he does not want it to do this way (and that is just his personal opinion, it has nothing to do with game mechanics or law), and that I have to get federal bank account in order to build the tunnel.
I refused, as I have reasons not to have any federal bank account connected and linked with my player account.

So I was told, that if dont like it, I have to do it myself. So I did (to be precies its 90% completed - road needs shifting 1 block down and finishing of the exits).

That being said - there was a job done, there is a lot of value on the federal claims and property, which greatly helped the federation, people use it on daily basis and think I shall be compensated for it.

It cost 9185 eur in concrete and asphalt, not counting tools, food, trasports and other costs.

I suggest the goverment pays me 9000 eur, and In return I will fix the height of the tunnel and finish the exits so it is all according to valid regulations.

long coral
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Info for the judge: I am being sued here, not the Fed Gov, but in my capacity as Minister of Infrastructure, not as a player.

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Submitting evidence. Exhibit A, log of the conversation in question:

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Exhibit B, Every other player or group of players that have requested funds:

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Doing it via bank acounts gives me a clear view of what was spent and on what, i have never denied players from buying tools, food and fuel with those accounts as long as they were related to the builds

slender dirge
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So for the record MoI confirmes, I requested the funds, but he refused to provide it at suggested terms.

long coral
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We'll leave that for a judge to decide

valid grotto
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I will be taking this court case. From this point on, please only answer or speak when I ask you to so that we can maintain order.
@slender dirge - You have sued the Federal Government, but have not posted any part of the Constitution or Federal Law, nor have you posted any contract with the Federation which has been violated. On what legal grounds are you suing them?

slender dirge
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  1. I sue the Federal Government, as - ingame - its the only releavant body, which according to the constitution can compensate federal contractors:

  2. I asked MoI, if I can start the tunnel, and he said Yes - that means the federal government confirmed intent - instructed me - to build it.

  3. I could not posted any contract, because the contract itself - I was proposing - was refused due to the form of payment (so it was not the price) from the MoI on the base, that has no grounds anywhere in the law.

  4. therefore - If I was instructed to build a tunnel, the tunnel was build, I shall be - according to the constitution _ adequately compenstated.

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valid grotto
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"It may appoint Federal Civil Servants at its pleasure or instruct adquately compensated Federal Contractors to assist it in doing so." The passage you posted gives the power of appointment and instruction to the Federal Government. From the messages posted here, it appears to me that the Federal Government declined to appoint you to any title and instructed you not to build the road without using a specific bank account, or else you would not be paid for any incidental services. You then agreed to these instructions.

Do you disagree with that summary of the situation?

slender dirge
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I disagree:

  1. I asked MoI explicitely if I shall I build the tunnel. He said "yes". Thats clear instruction to build it.
  2. I was given the Federal Engineer title to be able to start the project.
  3. Also the MoI wrote "either use the money from the bank account or dont get money" - which implies, that The intent to actually building the Tunnel is there in BOTH options. He never stopped the instruction to build it.
  4. However - federal law clearly states, If I am instructed to build something, i am to be adequtely compensated. Fed. government cannot say "build it" but get no money (as is this case).

For the recort: the instruction to build it is in the very conversation MoI posted here above, but a little bit higher, "cenveniently" not in the screenshot, and as I am not a GM, i have no access to it.

valid grotto
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About how much time did you spend on the tunnel so far?

slender dirge
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I dont know exactly, but according to my discord spam, i started around 2024-02-24 15:00 and finished 2024-02-25 10:00, My dog wakes up at 4:00 so there was plenty of time.

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valid grotto
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So you spent 19 straight hours on this project?

slender dirge
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no, i slept between like 22:00 ish till 4:00

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so 13hours more or less

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it went quite fast, the biggest problem was to get all the concrete. at 4:28 both ends were done and the road was crossed over:

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valid grotto
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@long coral - According to Constitution section § 9 - "governmental entities are not allowed to accept any kind of donation". Furthermore, in documentation, under the settlements guide, it states: "Settlements are hence not required to reimburse the goods used or compensate for the work done for public infrastructure that was established in this way, but that does only apply as long as the settlement is not involved in any way. That means that once the settlement or an official of it does participate in creation of any specific part of public infrastructure, even if only via coordination or guidance, it becomes a governmental project that must be financed by settlement funds.". And finally in Federal Law, section II §3 (2) - "Providing work time in contracts must be compensated with at least 100 € per hour".
Given the verbal contract you entered into with Velky, you offered an option for Velky to work for free for the government. This is in violation of the documents I posted above. Had you only given the option of using the Bank Account, or you had refused to give Velky the necessary title, he would have been operating as an independent entity and would not be entitled to compensation. Seeing as you gave him the title and instructed him to work for free should he wish, this is a violation.

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I suggest that you and Velky come to some sort of settlement outside of the court which includes the completion of the tunnel (thus @slender dirge will have followed the instructions given him), and a fair payment of work done. If you cannot come to terms in a settlement, the court can arbitrate a resolution based upon resources used and labor wages.

long coral
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@valid grotto do you are judging without hearing my side ?

valid grotto
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I took into consideration what you had posted here, if you have any additional information you can bring it forward now

long coral
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Well thanks because i wasn't allowed to talk unless spoken to.

long coral
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i wrote a 7 paragraf post .. and it got deleted

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So here we go again

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@valid grotto , in you capacity as a GM, can you provide the full log of the conversation ? if not this will be a "he said/she said" situation and not a healthy way to judge any case.

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the assignment of the title to be able to build the tunnel was not given as part of the tunnel discussion, the get the title at the start of something or by asking for it, and keep it until they prove to me that they no longer deserve it by by breaking the rules. I do not remove the title, so since it wasn't given specifically for the tunnel, it cannot be part of the ruling on this case.

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I disagree with the verbal contract. i never instructed him to build it, he asked if he could build it and allowed him to, there is a big difference between permission and instruction

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There is an entire different discord where very long discussions where had on tunnels, i would like to submit that discord as evidence where my position on tunnels has always been clear.

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discord[dot]gg/qBAfanvc3t

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I would also like to point out that gifting is allowed, he decided to build the tunnel out of pocket, but expected nothing in return, then it would have been allowed, but this entire lawsuit is now seeking something in return, to what i considered a gift, not to me but to the server, which would not be allowed.

long coral
# valid grotto I suggest that you and Velky come to some sort of settlement outside of the cour...

we have tried to come to an arrangement, in good faith, during this case, he was broken other rules, regarding the highway rules he agreed to, again around the titles he was given, but i have not removed the titles from him because of this ongoing case. I am not submitting this as evidence but i am submitting this as a pattern of his character, to show that settlement is not possible, i have tried, if you allow him to tell me what to do and show that anyone that can open a case against me ( in my capacity as a MoI) because i didn't do what THEY told me to do then you are setting a dangerous precedent.

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That means that once the settlement or an official of it does participate in creation of any specific part of public infrastructure, even if only via coordination or guidance, it becomes a governmental project that must be financed by settlement funds.
I wanted to give him the funds, this much is clear in the screenshot, if he didnt accept the funds, or didnt want to be associated with federal governement, then that is no longer valid. He sought out guidance, i gave it, and gave him a fair way of getting funds, he then refused the funds and and said he was going to do it out of pocket, at that point it becomes a gift.

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Also like to point out that he didnt build just any tunnel, but the tunnel that connects HIS continent to the unica continent. So this was not just any gov project, this was a gov project he would benefit from on trade.

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If we were to settle this in a deal, i would agree to pay him the 9000 he requested, but will also loose the titles and no longer have the ability to get them back. And will no longer be able to work on MoI funded projects. He would have to agree to a public apology for slandering my name and telling anyone that would listen that the MoI did not want to pay for infrastructure projects

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i have already previously stated that he does not need to lower the tunnel

slender dirge
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Ok, it was fun, until "pattern of character", "slandering my name" and other nonsense.

@valid grotto I rest my case, i am sorry for your time.

slender dirge
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There shall be 96williams

valid grotto
long coral
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all people from the workgroup got it, i was under the impression that for work in the canals and federal ports it was required

valid grotto
valid grotto
valid grotto
long coral
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what should i do ? fine him if they gift anyway ?

valid grotto
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Not give the title unless there is a specific wage, payment through law, or a specific contract on a contract board which pays them.
Providing money in a bank account for purchases allows players to cover costs of materials, but does not cover the cost of their labor, so even that option allows for players to do work on federal infrastructure without receiving payment.

long coral
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all other projects have had tools and calorie costs covered by the bank account too, this was never in question, the discussion here never got that far

valid grotto
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Even tool and calorie costs are not enough as players who provide hours of labor are not being paid

long coral
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yes, but that could have easily been solved with a contract after the completion of the project

valid grotto
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No such contract has been given, and according to you, the project is completed

long coral
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i never got an answer back on if he was going to lower it or not, i made a suggestion, nothing more

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and the suit only covers the cost of materials, tools, calories and transports

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if he sued me for not paying him a fair amount on completion of the project, that would be a different case

valid grotto
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He did not specify the suit was for materials, just for work done on the project

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He provided an estimate of material costs as supporting evidence

long coral
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he is even asking for less than the cost .. so he doesnt even want to get paid for it outside of the costs

valid grotto
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Regardless of the intended nature of the lawsuit, you still violated clause 9 of the constitution, and need to pay at least 1300 euros in labor costs to cover minimum wage for labor completed.
The argument that payment was offered for materials through a bank account and was refused by Velky is valid, and thus the Federation did not willingly accept the donation of materials, only the time of Velky.

long coral
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correct, i am even willing to pay him back for the materials at this point, in good faith, and so far i have let all his negativity to me and the fedral inspector slide, but since there is now a suit, this is needs to be all in the open

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i do not think that this is nonsense as there is plenty of evidence in all of the discord channels that this DID happen

valid grotto
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Please post proof of payment here when you have compensated Velky for his work