#Refused Service at Gov Store Based on Diverse Citizenship

73 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

real sphinx
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#EvergreenDump

latent lion
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They wont accept your garbage? Fine! Dump it in the streets!

grim prairie
glacial kayak
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Pretty sure they can offer services to citizens like that? Could do the same with stuff like housing or power too

haughty fractal
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Relevant Law
Constitution 2.2 Discrimination based on citizenship is prohibited. Offering citizenship benefits beyond what can usually be expected by anyone is permissible if not compensating for taxation.

latent lion
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Can we agree the a dump is a service right?

ashen thicket
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For additional details the dump is completely funded with town tax dollars and the person running it is paid wages through the town treasury. We try to provide the service for everyone but the priority is to service members of the town funding it when space is limited.

haughty fractal
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Im not sure what you are getting at Kyokes, but Ill just drop a Dennis clarification from GM chat when I asked him about some specifics before this conversation devolves into semantics debates:

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latent lion
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Not sure how that is even remotely relevant to this

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That is about tax evasion based on dennis response

haughty fractal
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The first part is also Dennis

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In response to a direct question about whether restricting a dump to citizens is allowed

latent lion
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If dennis wants that, it should be renamed to restricted public services as the word public service heavily implies that it is open to the public and as this is only unified federation, everyone here is part of the public.

haughty fractal
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Where does the law say public services?

latent lion
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States and Towns develop their territory, primarily by establishing infrastructure and public services and support the Federation with its duties.

haughty fractal
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Thats a completely different part of the constitution, and isnt tied to the 'citizenship benefits' mentioned here

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public services fall more in line with the 'what can usually be expected by anyone' category

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meaning those things that are expected (public services) cant be restricted

latent lion
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Something created for the public using governmental funds is normally expected to be public services. You dont see towns creating public bathrooms and restricting it to only the residence of that town. Its open to the general public as that is an expected role perfermed by the government for the public

haughty fractal
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My public library is restricted to those with an address inside the city

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The garbage pickup service in my city only operates within the city

real sphinx
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Your city probably doesn't advertise in the local economy viewer

latent lion
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Theres a difference win the garbage pick up services. If you go to the garbage dump on your own, you can normally leave your trash there. No questions asked (i have done it many of times with my residence being in a different state).

haughty fractal
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Not in my city

latent lion
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And likely your state or city has stated the public service a public service with restricted public access

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where in the WT constitution, theres nothing that states that and even states that discrimination cant be done based on citizenship. I know dennis has stated otherwise for claims however claims are a public service.

haughty fractal
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I'm honestly not sure what your point is, as it seems that you have a different interpretation of the language of the constitution than myself and Dennis do. Given that Dennis and the GMs are the ones giving rulings on the laws, and that I have provided clarification on this specific instance straight from Dennis, I dont know if I have anything else to offer you, other than to apologize if you misunderstood something based off of a difference in understanding of the particulars of the language in the constitution.

real sphinx
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Who said this from the clip above?:
"If at some point it is common that every town has a tailings dump, that is now a benefit everyone can expect and can no longer be restricted."

haughty fractal
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That was Dennis

real sphinx
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If that is the authoritative word, then perhaps all that's left to be determined is if there are enough dumps to nullify the protection against discrimination.

haughty fractal
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Are there any dumps offered by settlements besides Evergreen?

real sphinx
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12 stores are purchasing garbage which was what I was trying to sell

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And for what its worth the (Note) on the store labeling as restricted is not visble on the economy viewer.

latent lion
rough void
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how many of those dumps are town funded and town run

real sphinx
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The language seems to indicate the location and availability of a dump in the towns is more important to the analysis than government ownership.

haughty fractal
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Ive given feedback to Dennis many times about the language of the constitution/federal law and simplifying it, and he believes the laws are more beneficial if they stay general rather than specific, logic that - while annoying at times- I can understand to an extent. My goal in responding to this thread was to clarify any ambiguity before there was a multi hour discussion that resulted in a Dennis ping, as I have already had a conversation on this very topic with him.

haughty fractal
real sphinx
haughty fractal
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I fail to see a contradiction

real sphinx
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The statement does not limit the analysis of availability in towns to local gov entities with the language "available to or possible by anyone"

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IE a town that already has a citizen offering dump may elect to forgo a town dump to efficiently use resources

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The dumping service is nonetheless available to the towns citizens and citizens of other towns

rough void
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a private citizen purchasing garbage in the eco viewer does not constitute a full sized dump

real sphinx
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And if it fills it would not be discrimination

rough void
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there are three other locations currently purchasing tailings, that might be a better start and qualification to use for a public dump

real sphinx
haughty fractal
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Again, Im not sure what else I can do except tell you my interpretation of the rule - benefits offered by a town that are not normally offered by towns in general can be restricted to citizens - and point back to the Dennis clarification post that reinforces my interpretation.

rough void
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so if i put a listing up, buying garbage to store in a single 5x5 stockpile a couple of tiles down, do i now qualify as a public dump?

real sphinx
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The issue is whether or not a town dump purchasing garbage may rightfully discriminate against non citizens. According to the statements pasted above discrimination is only justifiable in consideration of the availability of such dumping locations in cities.

  • The court/judge/decider must determine whether or not the requisite condition for equal treatment has been met.
    ie Are 12 locations purchasing garbage sufficient to create an expectation that I should have been able to dump at any of those locations regardless of citizenship. ("If at some point it is common that every town has a tailings dump, that is now a benefit everyone can expect and can no longer be restricted")

  • The court/judge/decider must determine whether or not private citizens dump's or garbage storage solutions constitute availability to the towns in which they reside or neighbor. ("Benefits to citizens can be offered insofar what is offered goes beyond what can usually be expected to be available to or possible by anyone")
    Private or public dumps all appear the same to citizens and I fail to see how a citizens expectation of availing themselves to those services is meaningfully impacted by whether the storage location is Gov owned or privately held.
    It seems that the ability of individuals to start their own dumps and the existence in fact of those dumps instantly nullify's the ability for a Town to discriminate regarding that activity. The language requires that activities eligible for justifiable discrimination must "go beyond what can usually be expected... or possible by anyone" to rule otherwise gives those words no meaning. Nothing posted here or in the law indicates that the availability must be provided or provisioned by local government.

haughty fractal
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As a point of clarification, the law we have been quoting the last few posts is the version of the law as written at the time I had that conversation with Dennis. He updated it to the language I posted near the start of the thread

haughty fractal
real sphinx
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That language does not leave room for any discrimination?

glacial kayak
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Private run dumps do not constitute the same thing as a government run public service. If enough of those 12 dumps are actually gov run, then maybe it could be reasonably expected by everyone that most/all towns run a dump as a public service, at which time they can no longer discriminate. At this time I'm assuming very few of those dumps are actually gov run and hence offering this service to citizens only is allowed.

The point of a town being allowed to offer citizen only benefits is for the sake of having some level of uniqueness and standing out. They can't do blanket protection laws locking down their borders or anything that broad, but specific services are allowed to be limited to citizens so long as its doesn't become a common public service between most/all towns.

storm venture
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@sour musk and i had a conversation that this could have been a fed dump but we never progressed it further, this dump is not a fed gov, it is a local gov shop, i dont see an issue with the town restricting it of just the town

rough void
storm venture
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well laws that block non-citizens, but the town could make it free for citizens by returning spent money back to ciztizens i guess

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eg via more town service or by a law action

glacial kayak
weary spade
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scandal!

real sphinx
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The law *does not * indicate that the available dumps must be government ran.
The law says: Discrimination based on citizenship is prohibited.

glacial kayak
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Your first statement is correct

real sphinx
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The carve out, where (presumably an edit will include except when, unless language) Only permits discirimination when going beyond "usual expecation"

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And no where does law say expectation must originate from government endeavors

glacial kayak
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I'm just saying for it to be considered a reasonably expected public service by the gov and therefore required to be open to all and not just citizens, then the dumps need to be actually run by the govs, not private people, as private dumps are simply private business, not public services

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So PJs Charcoal shop should be considered a public service too? Since it's run the same as a private dump, buying and selling for profit

real sphinx
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Can you see how from my perspective it appears language is being inserted into the law/rules without the law rule language being updated changed?

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The only avenue for permissible discrimination is laid out in the law: When a citizenship benefit goes beyond what can be expected

glacial kayak
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Yes, and im saying a dump goes beyond what can be expected of a government

real sphinx
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The law expressly uses from anyone rather than "from government"

glacial kayak
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Ah ffs I thought it was in the states and towns section not basic rights. I'm not going to bother providing a ruling on this then, Dennis can be petitioned for that

haughty fractal
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The anyone clearly refers to the expecter, not the provider of the benefit.