#WT40 Waterwheel Canal, Request permit Usage

322 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

frosty anvil
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MoI has just announced ingame to collect illegal Waterwheels. Thus i hereby request permission to use 1 Waterwheel on the side of a canal.

Tidal Power is a realistic use of the kinetic power of water:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_power

Since our canals are bound to connect different oceans of our world, the difference in tide between those oceans is bound to induce water flow, thus harvestable power. It's a green source of energy and no harm to the environment is done.

Deeming tidal power illegal would be a hard blow on the hard working industrialists of our world. Let's work together in making sure it's not hindering water traffic, while still being aesthetically pleasing. We can do it!

Tidal power

Tidal power or tidal energy is harnessed by converting energy from tides into useful forms of power, mainly electricity using various methods.
Although not yet widely used, tidal energy has the potential for future electricity generation. Tides are more predictable than the wind and the sun. Among sources of renewable energy, tidal energy has t...

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Directed at @low sluice specifically.

low sluice
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but that means waterwheels should work in the sea ingame as well

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but they dont

frosty anvil
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That could be considered a bug, seeing as it works exactly like this in real life: Tidal power is harvested by waterwheels on the bottom of the ocean.

low sluice
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which is abusing of unintended mechanics

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so until the bug is fixed ( unless the devs want it this way ), ima stand my ground on it

frosty anvil
low sluice
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dams do not allow boat travel

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are you willing to block of the entire canal for a dam ?

frosty anvil
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I realize this, hence my request to put just 1 Waterwheel on the side of the canal.

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This is as minimally invasive as possible, while still harvesting power and allowing boat traffic.

low sluice
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my vision for canals is more like

e6.png
frosty anvil
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This is likely only an option for areas, where the difference in ground-height to ocean-height is low-enough. It would be reasonable, to say waterwheels are only allowed so long as they don't exceed the ground height.

tight dew
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Tidal power isn't harvested by a wooden waterwheel tho

low sluice
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i dont know, if i give 1 exception i have to give everyone an exception

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and its not like there is no alternative ( wind power )

frosty anvil
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Well, having dozens of wind power all over the place is less aesthetically pleasing than allowing a "waterwheel depth" of 1 on the side of canals.

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This would limit the use, but in a very reasonable way and it would limit the necessary use of Windmills (which are so far un-regulated?)

frosty anvil
tight dew
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If we disallow tiered farming because hydroponics is too advanced tech until late game, I'm not sure allowing waterwheels to capture tidal forces in a usable manner is consistent with that logic.
I dont want to be nitpicky over realism, but using waterwheels in a predug canal does seem to dodge the intended difficulty of early game power

frosty anvil
tight dew
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If we accept it as part of the reward of last cycle, I suppose I can accept that, but otherwise it feels like abusing something that was intended for boats and aesthetics, rather than bonus easy power

frosty anvil
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I do remember Elmeye powering the whole of unica two cycles ago via waterwheels under the roads (in a small canal).

low sluice
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tiered farming is allowed if enough daylight can reach, eg 5-6 blocks of ait above the plants with no walls, or having growth lights in late game

tight dew
frosty anvil
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I guess no one really disputes whether wheels in a canal would actually work.
Whether wood is a sufficient material to make it work is a different matter.
It can, imho, also be done in a way that isn't too hard on the eye.

In the end it's your decision as MoI. Imho that's an administrative act in accordance with §8.2 of our constitution?

low sluice
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but i am going to restipulate this, for now, waterwheels do not work in the ocean so there is no such thing as tidal waves

frosty anvil
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WT40 Waterwheel Canal, Request permit Usage

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IRL, canals are water locked ( eg a mechanism that blocks water to allow boats to go up and down ), and thus canals do not have the required waterflow to be profitable, and if we want realism in WT it means that there should be no waterwheels in the canals
Also, since i just noticed this: IRL canals could be dug at ocean level and they would have flow, but it's too costly in some cases. Quite feasible in others: Bosporus in Istanbul for example.

low sluice
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because there is ... tidal flow .. which we dont have

tight dew
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I'd also like to point out that regardless of whether they should give power or not, canals are considered public infrastructure and not private property - storing private power generators on public infrastructure has never been done before

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As a public user, I have definitely not enjoyed having to maneuver through the rogue docks and waterwheels popping up, and that's with small boats

frosty anvil
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@dusk ember First, sorry to drag you into this. I'd value your mediation on the issue.
Imho, not granting this request, thus going through with the administrative act, might be a violation of 8.2.1. Since disallowing waterwheels, even in minimally invasive cases, out of principle, is in my opinion a disproportionate administrative act. We have been warned and notified of their immediate removal.

past reef
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Did someone say dams 😄

low sluice
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federal law, 3.1.1.1 and 3.1.2.2

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we altered the 12 min level for 3.1.2.2 because bridges would look stupid otherwise but water wheels are still builings in a canal, i follow the federal law to the letter and thus do not over exect my administrative power

tight dew
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Would it be considered an administrative act, if it's removing an obstruction from a public space? Dennis as recently as a week ago gave a ruling on a case involving canal jurisdiction and pointed out that it is the duty of anyone to obtain a permit before building or altering a canal

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I also remember a certain GM dismantling a bridge that was obstructing a waterway without warning last cycle 😆

frosty anvil
low sluice
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and in my opinion it is not

frosty anvil
tight dew
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Lol, point being that even this warning that is being give is generous

past reef
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“Canals”, which are all bodies of water outside of the aforementioned biomes that have been or are intended to be artificially created or expanded to support water traffic. They are managed by the lowest local authority applicable.

Weylin, get a town to cover a portion of the canal. Problem solved.

low sluice
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no mayor has overriden me on this yet

frosty anvil
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We're at a point where we can reasonably agree to disagree. Imho places like Bosporus or many roman or greek buildings abused hydropower in ancient times. That's where my argument pro-reasonable waterwheel stems from.

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frosty anvil
dusk ember
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FYI I won't have time to read all this for a few hours, out on a date for valentine's day

frosty anvil
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no worries mate!

low sluice
past reef
frosty anvil
low sluice
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but, according to the district map, those canals ARE federal land

tight dew
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I'm fairly certain the Federal District drawn by GMs grants them Federal status, much like Federal Highways are Federal

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Although that's a legal gray area

frosty anvil
tight dew
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@tidal stump

past reef
frosty anvil
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in the past, there have been double payments for construction of roads on federal highways or state roads. those were legal

low sluice
past reef
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Highways arnt

frosty anvil
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that's why we have a constitution. constitution says: enforcement of laws is incumbent upon lowest authority

low sluice
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we've never had federal canals though

frosty anvil
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i mean, to make it easier, you could just ask both mayors

tight dew
frosty anvil
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@mystic stone that's stillwater mayor i think

past reef
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Not on so i cant check it

frosty anvil
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and portland is @lone quiver

low sluice
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also those town are illegal anyway since they dont have "town" in the name but that is an entirely different discussion

supple burrow
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All land is federal land. The enforment is the lowest jurisdiction. The question is if the canal itself is only federal, right?

past reef
low sluice
past reef
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Incorrect

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Federal land and state land have a very distinct difference here and irl

tidal stump
frosty anvil
tight dew
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There we go

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President has spoken

past reef
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President can be wrong lol

tight dew
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He literally chose the special regulation

frosty anvil
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i'm not sure how the president has any legal say in this? 😮

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tight dew
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The canals were his special rule

tidal stump
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I was answering as a GM as the intention when setting the map up.

tight dew
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Domination victory

supple burrow
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What I am stating is that the land itself is still federal. What I am referring is that the management of that land is taken over by the state when it's formed. In the end of the day it's still federal land.

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Right?

frosty anvil
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sounds agreeable

supple burrow
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So then nothing wrong with the canal being under the jurisdictions of states unless a law prevents that like stated

tight dew
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I rarely go up to your town anyway

frosty anvil
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i'm not part of a town, just my waterwheel is -.-

tight dew
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So long as unica and evergreen don't allow blocked canals I'm fine

tidal stump
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Clue is in the name though, "federal canals", not "state canals" 😄

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or town canals

frosty anvil
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not to be nitpicky, but not town canals either

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darn, too slow 😁

tight dew
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So if waterwheels are in the town canal, are they town property?

unreal kindle
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I cant believe ive read all this

tight dew
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If so, you donated to the government so bonk

low sluice
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i'm getting so much hate 😹

tidal stump
frosty anvil
past reef
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I appeared when i saw dam talks

low sluice
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@tidal stump read this first to get up to speed : #newspaper message

tight dew
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Question is can federation restrict waterwheel placement in canals

past reef
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Per federal law, if its on town or state land, they have to do it

unreal kindle
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Back and forth, with pictures mind you, about what kind of waterwheels and what not used in other sorts of canals. While just saying no would probably been enough.

frosty anvil
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or in other words: can they (or who else?) grant permissions to place waterwheels in a canal?

supple burrow
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As I underatand, by default, state takes over yhe management of the land unless stated otherwise.

low sluice
frosty anvil
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i'm less certain if you're actually the (only) guy able to give out permits to operate them

tight dew
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Wait

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That says enforcement of laws is incumbent on towns

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Not creation of laws

frosty anvil
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yeah. exactly. that's parliament (congress).

low sluice
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but parliment already voted on a law last night that fed canals have the same laws as fed highways

tidal stump
past reef
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The Minister of Infrastructure oversees and supports the development of the global electricity network, the Federal Highways and the Waterways, including public ports.

Also, canals is not specified in here for the MoI.

tight dew
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Waterways

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It's right there

past reef
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No

tidal stump
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so MP's got a little flavor to go with the canals as well

snow gulch
frosty anvil
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Waterways aren't canals?

past reef
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Canals and waterways are legally two different things

tidal stump
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nope

past reef
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We went over this guys

frosty anvil
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uh, i remember there being a lengthy discussion about the difference, true

past reef
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“Canals”, which are all bodies of water outside of the aforementioned biomes that have been or are intended to be artificially created or expanded to support water traffic. They are managed by the lowest local authority applicable.
low sluice
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canals are meant for boat travel and thus are a WAY just like highWAYs

past reef
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“Waterways”, which are all bodies of water within the biomes “ocean” and “deep ocean”. They are managed by the federal government.

“Canals”, which are all bodies of water outside of the aforementioned biomes that have been or are intended to be artificially created or expanded to support water traffic. They are managed by the lowest local authority applicable.

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Pulled from federal law

low sluice
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but they are not just canals, they are federal canals, as zoned

past reef
frosty anvil
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even a federal canal is a canal

low sluice
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ok, then are intended to be artificially created they were create already when the server started, so they are not TO BE CREATED

frosty anvil
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you could change that law

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with a majority in congress

low sluice
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they were not created, they are just part of the world

tidal stump
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It was talked about last cycle so there is some info to go at already

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for MP's that is

tight dew
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So

snow gulch
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I mean they were created, the world didn't generate like that

frosty anvil
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well currently they're quite unsafe to travel through, with all the dirt and unsupported stones on all sides

tight dew
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If I start picking up waterwheels

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What law are you going to use to stop me?

frosty anvil
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if you start picking up waterwheels, that is your good right

tight dew
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It's public property

low sluice
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for all intent and purpose, they came with the world, as GM's envisioned the world

frosty anvil
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none, it's perfectly legal to just remove them

tight dew
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Alright start going @low sluice

frosty anvil
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no one debated that right

tight dew
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Lol

frosty anvil
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we've had that dozens of times with power poles 😛

tight dew
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Power poles are protected by federal law tho

past reef
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Just make it look pretty. A lot less likely that someone will steal when everyone knows about it and it looks nice

frosty anvil
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if darkmukke picks them up, it might be perceived as an administrative act though. similar to me removing a bridge last cycle 😛

low sluice
tight dew
low sluice
tight dew
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If it's legal it's legal

low sluice
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or what if @tribal hamlet picks them up, he is just a player

frosty anvil
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how am i to know, when my MoI decides to pick up something, whether it is as an official or as a player? i'm in that schizophrenic problem regularly ^^

low sluice
past reef
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Power generation can be considered infrastructure

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🤪

frosty anvil
tight dew
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If a town buys them and places them then I guess it's currently legal

frosty anvil
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not exactly, in the case of electric power

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mechanical power is more complicated (and no one ever challenged it :P)

past reef
tight dew
frosty anvil
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also this:

image.png
tribal hamlet
# past reef “Waterways”, which are all bodies of water within the biomes “ocean” and “deep o...

I think the spirit of the law is that if a town digs out a canal or gets influence over a river or make an artificial one somehow, then the government can't come and police them around on what to do with this thing they've developed and "enhanced" themselves, whereas since the world spawned with these canals which were named "federal", the canals are in a way a favor from the government and in a way a result of a governamental development that were "offered" to be used.

unreal kindle
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Sounds like the entire town is colluding together and we should all fine them 10 daily rates

past reef
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Under what regulation states they need to place all their power generation on private property

tight dew
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Can't say it's infrastructure belonging to town so it's protected but then also say it's still owned by player and not donated

past reef
past reef
low sluice
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@tidal stump as a GM did you intent for the canals to be used for power generation ?

tight dew
tidal stump
tight dew
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Otherwise a town could just collaborate that way

tribal hamlet
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Well I don't think it works that way since you're applying a law that was created without this scenario in mind. I agree that these are the laws we have and those are the laws that we have to work with, but I think it makes more sense to understand the spirit of the law instead of just taking them ad-litteram.

past reef
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Get ready to are sueing people then williams

tight dew
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Let me get the rule

past reef
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Cause that law has not been enforced in that way ever

low sluice
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the last 3 cycles i was in, i've been paid for laying road in my town each time

tight dew
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Wait

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It got updated

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It's even more confusing

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It's legal until it's not 😅

past reef
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thats the same thing

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People can do things if the government has no meat in it

frosty anvil
past reef
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once the government says how it should go, they gotta get paid

tight dew
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I rescind all arguments in light of this new information

low sluice
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so because i said no waterwheels in canals, you can now, no longer donate them ?

tribal hamlet
# tight dew

I think that this boils down to:
If players make some roads to connect to nearby people because towns didn't decide what to do yet, then it's fine, but if the town takes a decision on the roads and by players placing roads they end up aiding with the project of the town, then it's illegal if it's not compensated.

past reef
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what?

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MoI cant do anything with canals

tight dew
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It means if a town starts designating waterwheel spots, it has to pay for them

low sluice
past reef
tight dew
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@low sluice you can still remove waterwheels on federation only canals for sure

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Whether you can on town influenced canals is still a question of if the special twist from this cycle puts those specific canals in federal jurisdiction or not

low sluice
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why did i pick the most difficult cylce to become MoI 😹 FML

tight dew
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Something Elmeye has hinted at, but not outright confirmed

low sluice
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ah well i rise to the challenge

tight dew
low sluice
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town cannot change or override the fed gov on highways either

frosty anvil
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the intention of the president or a GM is not law. as has been shown by my attitude towards bridges 😛

past reef
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The government superseding the constitution is weird

low sluice
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well for the good of the server i allowed bridges to only be 10 high instead of 12, but sure, sue me for that

past reef
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no ones cutting your head off

low sluice
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my head feels like a water wheel right now

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its spinning, but shouldn't cause no tidal waves

tight dew
# past reef The government superseding the constitution is weird

The whole point of the domination victory IS to introduce a new twist to the cycle in some way though. It's not as though we are asking Elmeye to change the definition of minimum wage or something. It's a question of IF the special twist supercedes a law that had no preconceived notion of federal canals

low sluice
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i'd almost involve Dennis in answering that but i dare not tag him :p

tight dew
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The very idea that Elmeye named them Federal canals is incompatible with current law

past reef
tight dew
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But I think the special twist does give jurisdiction to the Federation

low sluice
tidal stump
tight dew
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Usually when there is an incompatibility in law, the more recent and/or specific is taken, which would put the federal canals within federal jurisdiction

frosty anvil
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so, in spirit of this: back in the day, when someone made a "personal connection" to the federal highway, aka a side road, no one challenged that
so someone could make a sidechannel and put waterwheels in there?!

tribal hamlet
tidal stump
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if they can mine under federal highway

past reef
low sluice
frosty anvil
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i think mining under federal highways is already "kind of" allowed
at least if you have the title

low sluice
tribal hamlet
past reef
unreal kindle
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Oke we are almost 250 messages in. Is this a MoI issue or a MP issue?

past reef
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The law doesnt state anything about the age of the town or canal

tribal hamlet
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Though, without that canal, that town might have gotten founded somewhere else

frosty anvil
past reef
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Only that it exist and who has influence on it

unreal kindle
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was afraid youd say somethin like that😭

frosty anvil
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also you could include federal canals in legislation

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that would settle part of the argument

tight dew
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Elmeye forgot to protect canals with a pre made law and now no one knows who is supposed to do it

low sluice
tight dew
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It's a GM problem lol

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Probably easiest to vote on a change to federal law

past reef
tight dew
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Just needs 4 MPs

low sluice
frosty anvil
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rewriting a federal law isn't exactly a problem. also probably a good idea to decide whether that rule is retroactive, or we'll have to discuss preexisting waterwheels next -.-

past reef
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Dont apply anything retroactively lol

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That is one of the hallmarks of a failed law

low sluice
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but pre-existing wheels are "donated" as of now and on unclaimed land

unreal kindle
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So we pick em all up before we pass the law?

frosty anvil
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then they'd seem prima facie to have been built before, if we quietly place them back? 😛

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(don't do that)

past reef
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Time to make a dam again

low sluice
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also, i'd liek to point out that BE wasn't out yet ( so no waterwheels ) when i posted the originals newletter of no waterwheels : #newspaper message

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so this is nothing new, this has been there since day 2

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the update is just me starting to enforce it ( as per past day 4 law )

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and yes it says edited but that was still that same day :

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frosty anvil
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i kinda liked that so far windmills weren't hanging from any and every building that they could, because waterwheels did most of their job. guess that's back now :/

low sluice
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i mean, bricks our out, dig a canal from the sea to your property

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i might even give you budget for it

tribal hamlet
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no don't don't say that, they'll come for you like hounds, they'll dry up the account

past reef
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that seems like a great way to create a lot of neg culture

frosty anvil
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in my case, since no town covers me, you'd even be responsible for that canal ;D

past reef
low sluice
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or just underground

frosty anvil
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wait a second... you didn't disallow windmills in the canal, right?

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those things are probably extremely windy.

low sluice
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unica has had underground canals in the past that was not 12 deep

past reef
past reef
low sluice
past reef
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Cant really compare that to a single person

tribal hamlet
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Towns can also make like a hub to create mechanical power and then distribute it to its citizens like other towns already have

low sluice
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he's not in a town though

tribal hamlet
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Skill issue /s

low sluice
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😹

low sluice
frosty anvil
low sluice
past reef
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Not a law right? MoI cant make legislative so this would be a regulation if anything

raven chasm
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im not sure if the conversation has moved past this- but rome did use wooden water wheels in the ocean to exploit the flow of the tides to mill grain

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their usage is not unrealistic in the slightest

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for a real life example you can read about the birlot tidal mill

raven chasm
# low sluice because there is ... tidal flow .. which we dont have

on the point of there not being tides ingame, there is precedent in the law such that the minutiae regarding realism have no bearing on what mechanics exist ingame. eg- structural integrity, crop light levels, crop moisture accessability are all not modeled in game yet we accept they exist

tight dew
raven chasm
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ah yeah that is a good point :P

low sluice
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which i am tempted to allow if it is only 1 block wide

dusk ember
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Did people come to a decision on this on your own already? As far as im concerned the federal canals are to be unobstructed for the sake of boat travel as if they were the federal highways. Maybe 1 block of waterwheel isnt an issue, since the highways have the same thing with power poles/sidewalks, however boats do get much wider than trucks, and enforcement of not parking in the canal needs to be enforced more actively to allow good traffic flow. As far as who has jurisdiction, the feds do, period. they are federal canals, managed by the federal gov, not towns or states

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anything else i need to weigh in on? i dont have the time to actually read the thread top to bottom

unreal kindle
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Excellent news Madminer, we can finally put this to rest once and for all

dusk ember
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tbh i only read a few messages so i dont know what the full argument got into, but thats my opinion on waterwheels in the federal canals

low sluice
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i am happy witth that

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i will make a stipulation then that we could allow 1 waterwheel per person as an exception, when there are absolutely no alternatives and there is enough docking around for small boats to temporarily park ( eg to allow short time parking for traiding ) but the premises of the federal canals to me are that it is 100% meant for travel and not for power generation

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so people would need a very good use case for using a water wheel and by default it is a no

unreal kindle
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Wont you get a lot of people just creating this debate again trying to convince you that their reason is just?

low sluice
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yes but i am always open for conversation, as long as people set their expectations

final juniper
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So will Boats get impounded then? Because the Canal north of Evergreen is getting cluttered

low sluice
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yes

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only problem is that there is a bug right now that prevents us from having a law for it, @visual wolf has been working on that

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so we are working out how we can do the "towing"

frosty anvil
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does that mean my permit for having a waterwheel would have been possible? 😮

unreal kindle
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If only you had filled in the proper form, CW12-A

past reef
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how does one determine if someone has only have one waterwheel if they are placed in the canal? Would the magical log givers tell the government who placed them? 😮

frosty anvil
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usually all tables have a tab telling you who created them

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but keeping track of that is probably quite tedious

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my personal solution for now:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tide_mill

Tide mill

A tide mill is a water mill driven by tidal rise and fall. A dam with a sluice is created across a suitable tidal inlet, or a section of river estuary is made into a reservoir. As the tide comes in, it enters the mill pond through a one-way gate, and this gate closes automatically when the tide begins to fall. When the tide is low enough, the ...