Having food requirements at 50 makes a ton of baking recipes irrelevant

[gentle ocean]

Just look at some of these sub-totals for advanced baking food. 4 recipies don't have enough sub-total to meet the required number. This also applies to spiky rolls, and really drives food shortages.

So, I'd make two suggestions, but pick one.
Decrease the food requirements between 45 - 48.
Increase all T3 food recipes to be above 50 sub-total, even if the recipe is slightly more expensive

[devout star]

@supple quest what u think about baking to 50+,whats the difference between it and cooking there

[supple quest]

Ill need to get at my pc its currently not setup but afaik it was a big difference in cost per calorie/complexity of professions involved

Which was why it was slightly lower but its also undergone like 4 revisions

[full wharf]

This is from 1 or 2 cycles ago so not sure if still up to date.

[gentle ocean]

1/3rd of advanced food is below the total required

[devout star]

Think the average of the advanced food is still above it, and that's what I originally looked at

[glad trench]

Advanced baking already struggles with the ridiculous carb counts. Maybe tweak the nutrition to have less carbs while you're at it 😛

[gentle ocean]

There is still the issue with 1/3 of the food being below the limit, and 1/3 being exorbantly expensive. Food shortages are so common they are essentially predictable. Even worse is the carb balancing, with foods like wild mix being below the sub-total meaning they can't be eaten. This could be fixed by dropping the sub-total to 46-48,

[young dust]

Isnt this a constitutional law so it can be changed in game on our end?

[devout star]

no

[devout star]

eating lots of different foods to keep your multiplier up is also intended

[gentle ocean]

I am aware, however, that is not happening, and the law at the moment is one of the main reasons behind this

Right now, the most effective thing to do is make as many crab rolls & camas rolls as possible, mass eat that and just not bother with your balance because you can't

also, skip advanced baking... because only Macrones are closly affordable at 50+

[devout star]

i guess then some foods are just better than others. I can't change the recipes of food and keep that up to date with 10 like I did before, that's why I asked jens

[gentle ocean]

Also, note.... the current food bonuses required are 25, 35 & 50. It would probably be better placed to make modern 45

[devout star]

because of +10 always? if balancing followed that I'd be surprised

[gentle ocean]

yes, and because look at the table above? every T3 food is 45+

[devout star]

anyway, there will always be an optimal solution for a problem, and someone will find that. Some food will be 0.1% cheaper than something else. But thats not the problem of the server rule

maybe vanilla eco will do something there 🤷

until then, better eat that crab roll if you deem it optimal for your goals

[gentle ocean]

The solution was so optimal, the only cycle we haven't had a food shortage, was the time I specialised in making Seeded Camas rolls and keppy crab rolls and made several thousand of them.

[devout star]

so 1/3rd of the recipes is a bit below 50, the average is above 50 and everyone wants to buy rolls because "its optimal". I guess then there's no helping you 😄

If you think that some foods are underpowered that needs to be fixed in the recipes

I don't know enough details about the recipes but I bet that other recipes are better if you optimize for other things than "minimum price + beats subtotal"

then its just some slightly cheaper thing that will be produced if we lower the amount

and since price and "goodness" of a recipe is always subjective and depends on many things in your personal situation... lowering a 50 to a 40something is not the solution needed here

I bet jens will be happy if you compile a list of which foods are underwhelming, and why, and in which situation, so that can go into the next balancing round

[gentle ocean]

It's in relation to the skill limit, the food is wildly unbalanced towards carbs anyway at T3 but this is in relation to the server concept, not necessarally the food

As identified, an entire end game profession is mostly irrelevant, because they essentially have 1 crafting recipe that is even close to being competitive with advanced cooking

I just did a calculation, the best regular cooking food clam chowder gives 45. The next best is Pies, then Baked meat. I think that if you were to put the sub-total to T3 crafting to 45 instead of 50, then there would be much healthier diets

[arctic snow]

To be fair, both clam chowder and camas rolls, which were previously "optimal" got a little nerfed with v10 ocean changes

[lavish dome]

I addition to me suggesting precisely this not only once but a couple times already in the past (once was during the cooking run with 96dwilliams), I would like to bring up another point loosely connected yet strongly influencing food choices:

Food preferences are too random. Maybe it's not as big of a problem outside of WT but especially with the 50 subtotal rule it's really bad. In the current game for me crimson salad is most hated, and both sweet salad and mil-salad are horrible. Yet I have to keep a subtotal of 50+ and I would love to balance my nutrients (obviously to get another star to spend). It's not my fault I have to do with less of an XP rate than others - rather it's a bad choice of how the randomness is implemented. Yes I can work around it with more time invested, doing some math, ignoring some boni, eating 50 different items per day to balance it out. I know. Yet...

I think there should be some kind of check in place making this (my current) combination of preference impossible. It being random may be fun to some extend but 'random' never is really a good thing for balancing a game mechanic properly.

[devout star]

If you want an improvement to food recipes, best to post in #playtest-feedback, as the recipes are not custom to WT and vanilla could use the feedback as well 👍

[gentle ocean]

Again. The recipes are not a problem (other than the carb Vs vitamin balance) the problem is the sub-total exclusive to White Tiger.

I feel this comment completely ignored the point Gecko made, that the high sub-total restricts the food available, meaning food balance is incredibly difficult.

[devout star]

Yeah but I already answered that, lowering the requirement just means you find some cheaper optimal food, and that's not the point 🙂

[gentle ocean]

Such as maybe the other half of the advanced baking profession, and the missing quarter of the advanced cooking profession that is currently too low in sub-total.

[arctic snow]

Is the idea to make all Adv Baking and Adv Cooking foods work, or to balance Adv Baking with Adv Cooking?

I feel like lowering the req would help balance the professions

As it make Adv Baking more viable but leaves Adv Cooking in a pretty similar spot

[rain violet]

I actually don't think it's an issue, the randomness can be unfair, yes, addressing that in general might be a good idea to at least guarantee that you have a delicious combo to keep all nutrients up or something like that, but:
Taking the screenshot above as basis:
the average nutrients for baking if you'd eat the same amount of calories of each item, your total Nutrient Score is 52.7. (if you eat one of each, your Score would be 53.77)
So you could eat the same amount of calories of each (which would mean more low nutrient than high nutrient foods even) and you'd still be well above average.
For cooking, the same average is 52.2.

Basically: You already can eat a lot of the lower nutrient foods and can balance it out with some of the higher nutrient foods, it just takes a little bit of management which I think is fine, and won't let you just stuff your face with the cheapest available T3 food

[drifting coyote]

Always good to not mix different topics into each other, btw. The randomness is absolutely nothing of WT and not relevant, it's purposeful (including you being able to get the shorter stick) and a vanilla thing. I don't even know if we could change that, but I definitely have no intention to do so, as the randomness is fully intended to provide you with a challenge. Min-Maxers being unhappy with that is absolutely understandable, but it basically is a feature to throw min-maxers around. It is unfair, as life is.

As for the food requirements as is, Daniel is responsible for its implementation, so as long as there is no serious issues and Daniel thinks it works as intended, I'm not going to get involved there.

I do not quite understand how its not a vanilla problem of recipes but of our limit when at the same time you state that several recipes compared to cooking are simply underwhelming and you even offer a second suggestion of changing the recipes to begin with, but then state its a limit problem. Maybe it's just too early of the day.