History

[sharp rune]

English alone has Scouse (Liverpool), Geordie (Newcastle), East Midlands (Lincoln), West Midlands (Birmingham), RP (artificial), West Country (Cornwall/Devon), and probably a lot more i can't think of off the top of my head

[red moth]

Well, thats how it works with any language, but i dont want to get into language-exchange to mutch

[vernal juniper]

Exactly, in France I have a provençal accent, but if you heard me you'd just say I have a French accent

[ebon latch]

OK BUT

All British accents share things

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_English

There's even terms for these dialects who all share characteristics, macrodialects

[sharp rune]

really?

a Welsh accent sounds very distinct from a Glaswegian accent

[ebon latch]

but they still share more in common than with someone from everywhere else outside Great Britain

i would say something similar happens with Iberian Spanish

or with Spanish in the River Plate

[vernal juniper]

And my Provençal accent sounds nothing like a Chti accent, yet it's still accurate to call both a French accent and we do share features

[red moth]

Same with too us, a Flemish accent is one thing, but Flemish people hear like an Antwerp accent and a Gent accent etc

[sharp rune]

@red moth if you're interested, here's a manuscript written in Middle English from c. 1419

i was surprised to see how easy it is to read

[red moth]

Ah, that's easier than I expected, yet not perfect haha

[hoary mason]

ugh I love this

"easy to read"

that might as well be something out of lord of the rings

[sharp rune]

so that snippet says "Westmynstr, of þe Archebishop" but i had to check the transcription for the part before it 😭

"[after he was cronede solempneliche (crowned solemny) at] Westmynstr, of þe Archebishop"

[sharp rune]

easy to read compared to other manuscripts of the time 😅

[hoary mason]

I knew that 👀 :squint: 😂

[sharp rune]

TIL that Blackbeard's flagship, Queen Anne's Revenge, has been located and is annually being excavated??https://www.qaronline.org/conserving-important-site

[lean yacht]

duuuuude

[sharp rune]

7 year old me would be so happy rn

[spark lynx]

I found that in my research too. The earlier the records, the easier to read. Here is a record from 1179 I consulted last month. It is in Latin but the script is very easy to read.

[sharp rune]

oh wow, that's beautifully written 😍

[spark lynx]

I think it was during the enlightenment that they rediscovered some of the old letter forms, which is why records from the 1100s are easier to read than from the 1500s, generally speaking.

This is from the 9th century. I have used records that are 1000 years younger that are harder to read.
http://hdl.handle.net/1887.1/item:881366

[sharp rune]

that's crazy! i think you're right, they are much easier to read

i looked into Anglo-Saxon charters and found this from 961. shockingly easy to read!

[spark lynx]

Yes. Next up: hieroglyphs. Although, if you think about it, emojis are nearly there 😂

[vernal juniper]

So neat! I wish all of my sources were this legible haha

[spark lynx]

Where can you find Anglo-Saxon charters online? I used to use the British Library manuscripts website but they have been hacked and do not know when they will be online again.

[sharp rune]

i took this from an old blog post, sadly i don't think there's a way to view them other than the BL :(

i know a lot of them have been transcribed and indexed by King's College https://aschart.kcl.ac.uk/index.html, but sadly with no scans

[sharp rune]

it's like people's handwriting has gradually gotten worse over time 😂

[spark lynx]

That's too bad. I hope they will get their stuff back in order soon. It's worrying that an organization that is supposed to be good at preserving information was the victim of such a ransomware attack without a way to gracefully recover quickly.

[sharp rune]

on this topic: here's an Irish manuscript written in 1616. this mess of squiggles says: "Ruaidri Úa Concobar"

[red moth]

From what my paleography teacher said, that's because people wanted to write as fast as possible, which resulted in not so pretty scripts

[quartz shell]

i'm not sure if it is entirely true, or there must be other factors (calligraphy fashion) too. I have noticed it both in Hungarian and Czech records too, that for some reason the 18th century church records are the worst, both 17th century and 19th century are easier to read

something was wrong in the 18th century, i don't think just because in the 1700s they wanted to write faster 😄

[red moth]

Yeah it depends on the place, and the presence of books too. But in general that's why in early modern times it got less readable to us than medieval handwriting.

[red moth]

In the 1700s, we started using our current way of cursive writing, so for us it got better haha

[red moth]

I still get nightmares thinking about how these had color

[sharp rune]

first depiction of Blackbeard, published in 1724, 5 years after his death

[tame hatch]

can i talk about History the college major here?

[sharp rune]

ooh i hope so

not long till i'll be going to uni for history 🤩

[vernal juniper]

my sister did that but then dropped it haha

[tame hatch]

i'm thinking of going back to college for History 👀

the classes seem awesome, there's an option for only night classes

but the thought of having to study everything from high school for the national exam.... gives me chills

[icy bison]

you'll hopefully do fine if you want to try it!

the only history major folks I know are people who studied in the USA or Ireland though, so I cannot help with Brazilian higher ed

[tame hatch]

oh i know, i mean... been there, done that hahaha

i'm gonna apply for the same univeristy i graduated, the federal from Rio

i should be starting to study for the exams

[sinful cobalt]

excited for you history majors!

always my favorite subject

[tame hatch]

😍 i'm excited but also super nervous, not a fan of big changes in my life

but i really wanted to try

when i pass this will be oficially my gif and no one can ever use it

https://tenor.com/view/fellowkids-kids-cool-kids-gif-5030958

[hoary mason]

I think that sounds like an awesome idea!

[quartz shell]

it is also my dream, but ehh, no time or esp. money for it

[tame hatch]

thank god for public university 🙏

i don't have time either, but i wanna try

[lean yacht]

how long would I have to live with you to get free public university?

[quartz shell]

yea i'm not sure but here i think you can only get a first degree for free though i'm not entirely sure about the current rules

[tame hatch]

i have no idea but you can come anytime! COME TO BRAZIL

[tame hatch]

hmm i see. we don't have that here, you can go to college for free how many times you want, just need to pass the national exam

nowadays we have one main national exam and with your final score you can apply to different colleges anywhere in the country

back in my day each university had its own exam, i tried for 3 different ones

[quartz shell]

oh that is then the con, afaik as a 2nd degree, based on my first diploma i could go straight to master for history, so it would be like 4-5 semesters for me, 2 and half years (i would need to take some extra subjects because i dont have history bachelor, i would need to complete 30 or 50 credits i think from that? that is roughly doable in one semester)

[tame hatch]

nice!

i can't do anything with my diploma when it comes to that, would need to do everything all over again hahaha

[quartz shell]

oh yea you have it in a totally unrelated field

are there some credits/subjects they would account for? i guess you had to take some art or architectual history classes too?

or it wouldn't matter much?

[tame hatch]

i think it wouldn't count, i graduated in 2014 and the History curriculum changed in 2019, so i dunno if i could use any of my history classes there. it also doesn't have anything related to architecture on the main course, not even in the electives i think

[quartz shell]

still, it will be fun, do it, good luck

i had to go to a university campus last month (i was doing research in the university's archive) and it was so good feeling to mingle again with uni. students. Felt myself young again 😄

[tame hatch]

fellow kids

yeah that's gonna be the weirdest part

me, a freshman at 36, getting hazed? no thanks

[quartz shell]

oh i think teachers will take you more seriously and you can laugh at these... zoomer kids 😄

[tame hatch]

hahahahahaha

[hoary mason]

I always made friends with the older students. They made the BEST study partners. Super prepared, and studied

[tame hatch]

some teachers will probably be younger than me

[tame hatch]

i remember one student was in his 60s and everybody loved him, he was a retired engineer and always wanted to study architecture 😍

[quartz shell]

"older", you mean young for a longer time

[tame hatch]

he was really cool

[hoary mason]

Outside the typical early to mid 20s range

[quartz shell]

anyways i think nowadays it is not uncommon at all for older people to enroll

especially for distance education

or evening or whatever

so probably you would have many classmates in the same age range too

[hoary mason]

I always remember my professors going easy on the older students. Back then it slight felt unfair, now it feels like mercy

[tame hatch]

depending on the major, there will probably be more older students

[red moth]

Cool!

I don't want to sound dumb, but when are you a history major?

[rigid yoke]

I went back to school at 38 to switch careers. I was old enough to be a parent to many of the other students. It was weird but cool at the same time.

[tame hatch]

when? wdym?

[red moth]

What is a major in this context?

[tame hatch]

what context? isn't this how it says in english? major in [insert college course here]

[digital sandal]

It’s like a concentration in a certain subject. Usually there will be a requirement for specific classes. Some places also require a senior thesis (some writing).

[tame hatch]

oh nevermind then, i know realized the college system in the US is different

here it's just History college, you can either get a bachelor degree or study to become a teacher (i don't know how to say that in english, we call it "licenciatura" like licensing?)

[digital sandal]

Getting your teacher’s license 😁

[tame hatch]

right hahahah

but there is no major/minor, you can specialize on a subject in post-grad

[red moth]

Is it like doing a Masters or is that different?

[red moth]

Lesbevoegdheid🤓

[digital sandal]

I'm not sure for Mateus, because each country's school structure is quite different I think.

[tame hatch]

you can do a Masters, yes

[red moth]

So that's not what you are planning?

[tame hatch]

no no, i'm planning on going to college!

from the start

[red moth]

Ah, so a bachelor?

Kind of

[tame hatch]

a bachelor, yes

[sinful cobalt]

Or a senior project! Luckily my group was great

[red moth]

Ah nice, I loved it, but ofcourse it depends on the Uni. Or you just come to Amsterdam and study at the UvA

[tame hatch]

hahahaha right, quite easy for me 😆

[red moth]

So today I'm finally done with the VOC petitions, and I have to write a paper about them. Now I'm thinking of doing it about American ships in the Dutch East Indies

[sharp rune]

that sounds so cool 😍

what time period?

[red moth]

1795, I have like 15 petitions by like 5 American ship captains. The only thing that might prevent me from doing that topic is a lack of literature

Like I need at least some books or articles about American Asiatic trade in that period to ground the research, but quick searches have not resulted in anything

If need be, I can maybe als compare it to British EIC ships, but they came to Batavia in the first months (Jan-may ) whilst the Americans came (jun-dec)

[red moth]

So any literature recomendations are welcome😄

[forest chasm]

May not help, but I know of a fictional book about an American ship in the British East India Company.

Maybe the author has some sources around somewhere that might talk about it?

It's the Ibis Trilogy by Amitav Ghosh.

[red moth]

I will take a look, thanks

[meager ivy]

A bit of genealogy, but the bank BNP Paribas donated their copy of the marriage record of Napoléon and Joséphine to the National Archive of France.

The original document was burned along all pre-1860 records during the Paris Commune of 1870. The bank had its historical head office in the building that was the town hall in which the document was made, which is why they had the copy.

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/archives-nationales-france_hier-soir-bnp-paribas-a-fait-don-aux-archives-activity-7178765359208935426-BqAJ?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop

[hoary mason]

That’s so cool! I wonder what other treasures they have

[scarlet venture]

the ship which my 5th great grandfather commanded under TM, Kings Kamehameha V, Lunalilo, & Kalakaua

known as The Kilauea

[red moth]

@quartz shell Did you know there was once a Hungarian soldier that tried to be dictator of Dutch Suriname?

[pearl pelican]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H_bIIRXjpk

[quartz shell]

that Killinger dude?

https://hirado.hu/kulfold/cikk/2021/01/22/egy-elfeledett-magyar-aki-hajszal-hijan-egy-egzotikus-orszag-vezetoje-lett and his genealogy: https://www.familia-austria.at/images/inhalte/datensammlung/oeffentlich/Die_boehmischen_Killinger_Wolfgang_Killinger_2021-01-05.pdf

his dad emigrated from Bohemia to Hungary

this is in Dutch about him https://real-j.mtak.hu/14101/1/an12_egesz.pdf the study Michiel van Kempen: Een Hongaarse putschist in Suriname in it

[red moth]

Ah you knew? It was completely new to me haha

He isn't on Wikitree yet, but I lost track of his kid in Hanover, so won't know if I can connect him

[red moth]

Ah, than the bit about him supporting the new republic makes more sence. And his mother's side?

But maybe it's more fun if I look for a Hungarian in the Dutch East Indies?

[quartz shell]

apparently his mother's family was from Lower Austria. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSVH-PBLC?i=250&cat=400816 this is the parents marriage in Kőszeg, Hungary (entry 14)

the bride was born in Spillern, a place in Lower Austria

so he had 0 drop of Hungarian blood 😄

He was ethnic German apparently of Bohemian and Austrian background

[red moth]

Ah, a real Austro-Hungarian haha

I'm gonna look for some more Hungarians in the colonies. I have a naturalization document that might hold some

[quartz shell]

the paper i linked above i think discusses many others too #1164735719370141696 message

[red moth]

Ah I'll look there first than, thanks

[sharp rune]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epw6P56KyTI

[sharp rune]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DCBVxH86OE

[red moth]

Oh I've read a bit about cooking from old cookbooks

On a totally different note, have you ever heared of the Kew Letters?

[sharp rune]

i have not!

[red moth]

When in Kew Palace, Willem V wrote letters to the colonies saying that, since NL had fallen to the French, they should continue to fight them, and the colonies should surrender to the British for safekeeping. Only some of them fallowed these orders

[red moth]

And Batavia heared the news via an American ship. But in non of the books I found, it's mentioned which ship it was😞

[red moth]

I found some literature about American ships in Batavia, somehow

Basically, the Dutch wanted to use American ships because they were neutral and so would not be attacked by the French or English

Later on, some Americans would do the reverse and pretent to be Dutch ships, so they could get into Japan (but they were caught and had to pay a big fine)

I'm trying to look for the American ship captains, but cant find any. Except maybe captain Thomas Sprigg, but I'm not sure its the right guy

[rigid yoke]

Where would you even look?

[sharp rune]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'Anse_aux_Meadows

such an interesting rabbit hole

the researchers at this site used tree rings to determine the exact date the Norse settlers arrived in Newfoundland, c. 1021 CE https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03972-8

[red moth]

Just googling. People love ships, so the possibility that one of the captains is written down somewhere is possible. Although most don't have a very distinctive name unfortunately

[rigid yoke]

I think I might be misunderstanding or missing some information. Do you already know the names of the ships?

[red moth]

I know the names of the ships and the captains. Only one where I don't know the name of the ship is the one that brought the news to Batavia in Nov 1795

[rigid yoke]

Oh. Have you checked Lloyd's Register?

[red moth]

No I have not

[red moth]

Was reading an article, saw this name, and think at least someone her might find it an interesting read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_van_Antwerpen

[sharp rune]

woah that's so cool

[red moth]

She doesnt have a wikitree profile yet it seems👀

[sharp rune]

found this while studying, this is just a hilarious mental image

[rigid yoke]

Sounds like the entrance to a secret tree fort. "BOYS ONLY! Girls have cooties "

[quartz shell]

they had one woman commissar too for welfare

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandra_Kollontai

[rigid yoke]

That's really cool.

[sharp rune]

today marks the 63rd anniversary of the Bay of Pigs invasion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion

[ebon latch]

Cochino also means someone who is disgusting or mean.

[red moth]

I finally found which American ship brought the news to Batavia that England had declared war on us!

[vague viper]

Grandmas are so random... my grandmother gifted me three original newspaper issues from 2001 covering the events of 9/11!

She always seems to randomly have historically significant things in her home.

They're pretty interesting, honestly. They contain some huge half and full-page photos of the events

[smoky stag]

A couple of years ago an elderly relative gave me a load of newspapers from 1953 documenting Queen Elizabeth's coronation

don't comment on me changing that from 53 to 52 and back to 53 again lol

[dusk fjord]

It's a thing! My dad saved a newspaper from the day I was born, as well as some other days of personal importance to him

[scarlet venture]

I have newspapers of when I started primary one and while clearing out my great-grandma's house, in her shed was a random newspaper from 1944 mentioning Churchill lol

[sharp rune]

what was the ship? 👀

[red moth]

The Greyhound under captain N. Suter

Apparently alot of the literature is wrong because they say that the American ship came in November bringing the news that the Republic had fallen, but according to this book that's not true. A Dutch ship named the Medemblik came in August bringing that news, the American ship just brought the news that England had declared war on us

When it comes to my paper, I've altered the subject a bit.

[rigid yoke]

How and where did you find the information?

[red moth]

From a Dutch book from 1988 called Van Compagnie naar Koopvaardij

It seems to be the only book about the final years 1795-1811

There was also an American ship that was supposed to go to Kaapstad in South Africa to inform the Dutch fleet not to come home, but he was to late. The English stopped him, but he managed to throw the papers overboard haha

[sharp rune]

you're writing a paper on this right?

[red moth]

I was, but now I'm doing it on how the people in the Indies experienced the downfall of the company. Will have a chapter on Americans though

Given that most of them, accept James Miller, just talk about what stuff they want to sell. So now I have more space to just write interesting stuff about the American ships

[sharp rune]

oooh that's cool

how many words do you suppose it'll be?

[red moth]

It has to be between 6000 and 8000

[sharp rune]

ah gotcha

i'm writing a paper on the abolition of slavery in the UK, which has to be between 3000 and 5000

[red moth]

Yeah I've written that length before, but a bit nervous because our teacher said that if we want to publish it, they will try and help, so the pressure is high

But it is fun, as no Dutch historians have worked with these specific sources before. We looked at almost 500 petitions to the VOC in 1795

[sharp rune]

that's amazing!

sadly i'll mostly be looking at secondary sources and interpretations 😩

[red moth]

Well we all start with that, and some stay with it. Most research is 10% primary sources, 90% secondary sources

[sharp rune]

i don't actually know if i'm allowed to look at primary sources

will have to ask my teacher

[red moth]

We were only forced to use at least 1 primary source in the second year iirc

[quartz shell]

it is about the modern slavery right? 19th century?

[sharp rune]

yup, 1500s - 1838

[quartz shell]

oh ok. yea i was just wondering if it is about medieval slavery, it is such an "underresearched" or better to say underdiscussed topic i think so i was curious which one

though probably partly because it is drier, there are less narrative sources, more legal ones

[red moth]

Oh it ended in 1838? All across?

[sharp rune]

the slave trade itself was banned across the empire in 1807, but it wasn't illegal to own a slave until 1833, and in 1838 all slaves were made free

a bit confusing lol

the government spent a huuuuge amount of money in compensating slaveowners so nobody would rebel or oppose abolition

[red moth]

Yeah we baned the trade in 1814 or 1815 (as a British condition) and slavery itself in 1863, but they still had to work till 1873

[red moth]

Yeah we did the same

[vernal juniper]

I don't really know about how it all went down here

I know at some point Napoléon was anti-slavery then he actually still permitted it in some ways because his in-laws had slaves or something like that? not sure

I don't think we actually had modern slavery on the mainland, I think it was just a thing in the colonies (but not sure about that either)

[twin flame]

definitely in the colonies lol (looks at Haiti)

[vernal juniper]

No I know that, it's the part about it being just in the colonies I wasn't sure about

[sharp rune]

same here. slavery was never practised in mainland Britain (afaik), but people did bring slaves back from the colonies and hire them as servants 😬

[twin flame]

ahhhh I see lol

I do vaguely remember reading something about slaves automatically being freed on French soil? But that also may either apply only to Paris, be a myth, or just be a certain era

e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Hemings

"hey will you go back to being enslaved to me when we go home?" 🙄

[sharp rune]

wow that is way later than i would have figured

[vernal juniper]

"hire"

[red moth]

Yeah well in trek 1830s it was already suggested, but the whole matter was "how mutch do we wanna pay for it" so it could have been sooner, if it wasn't all about money, but it almost always is. That's for the west though, the east got rid of it in 1860, but native communities still practiced it in some places till like 1914. It's always interesting that the moment slavery gets abolished, the country is like "it is our Devine mission to abolish this cruel system, how dare they have it when we already abolished it like last Monday". Like for my Borneo research the civil servants wrote alot of anti slavery stuff

[twin flame]

also reminds me that no one knows what happened to Harriet and Beverly Hemings - they "escaped" from Monticello with the knowledge of Jefferson, passed into the white community, and apparently changed their names

might be an interesting detective case for other channels on the server 😉

[red moth]

In the petitions, I did find one from 3 married couples of company slaves, requesting if they could buy themselves free

[twin flame]

https://leighfought.blogspot.com/2020/08/beverly-hemings-balloon-man.html?m=1

[twin flame]

I think I know who the balloonist was nope nevermind, I only know for sure who the second person to go up in a balloon in Petersburg is

[rigid yoke]

Having worked at the Jefferson Memorial for 6 years and answering hundreds if not thousands of related questions, may I apply for the job?

Slavery did not exist in France in the late 19th Century. It was abolished in 1789. Sally's brother traveled all over the country as a free man while training to be a chef. And then he automatically became a slave again as soon as he touched American soil.

[zinc remnant]

I like Titanic

A lot

some say it's a problem lol
Out of all the historical topics I follow, the history surrounding the voyage and passengers/crew of Titanic has been the top history related interest

With the recent 112 anniversary of the voyage I need to revisit my favorite book on the topic

[sharp rune]

today is (probably) Shakespeare's 460th birthday 🥳 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Shakespeare

[lean yacht]

It's his supposed 460th birthday, he deserves to show off his earring

[scarlet venture]

What the heck I never even noticed that

[sharp rune]

whether Shakespeare wore an earring or not is actually a pretty contentious topic between historians

[sharp rune]

there is no proof that he wore one except for this painting, which was painted nearly 50 years after his death

[scarlet venture]

It's also his 408th death day

[sharp rune]

oops ignore me https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandos_portrait

[scarlet venture]

I wanted to do celebration emojis but it felt wrong lol

For the record I have nothing against him he seems like a cool dude

[sharp rune]

the depictions of Shakespeare is also a massive rabbit hole to go down

[lean yacht]

https://youtu.be/UN0SKWQTuzA?si=5cNpWCe-U5nZftS5

[lean yacht]

Anybody have any of these eastern Texas castles in their family? https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6JsnLhO1fU/?igsh=ODV4dzBueWtjZjNk

thecodytucker

The Craziest Secret Society in American History

Follow for more clips from The Cody Tucker Show!

#reelsinstagram #reelsfb #reels #comedyposts #comedypodcast #comedyshorts #comedyshow #comedy #history #weirdhistory #weirdfacts #interestingfacts #trivia #interesting #trivianight

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[manic patio]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1007954960023048213/1225408843731697706/IMG20240404033842.jpg?ex=662eddab&is=662d8c2b&hm=a58851dea2ce54c13a17845101487c769c37f340e4d103351225ce303d01efb8&

I have aot of history books about Alaska

I recommend professor Andrei Grinev's book if anyone wants read about history of Alaska

[manic patio]

This is actually good channel that has educational topics about the Celts

[sharp rune]

yup, hence why i sent it 😛

[manic patio]

I can recommend simlliar video though this channel is related to Germanic and Slavs of Russia https://youtu.be/F-_IXwMPi8Q

[manic patio]

Hey Alex I got a question what era of Europe interest you?

[simple slate]

President James Monroe is 266 today

[quartz shell]

Saddam would be 87 today 😄

and Edward IV of England apparently 582? idk if he did anything notable, not familiar with 15th century english history

[forest chasm]

It’s also this guy’s birthday. Please tell me his last name is pronounced in the funny way I’m imagining.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludvig_Schytte

[digital sandal]

I used to study these

[forest chasm]

Lol

Also that’s in like 5 different languages

[simple slate]

582 is correct. I forgot about him tbh

[tame hatch]

that's one damn old president you guys got there

[simple slate]

💀

[sharp rune]

ah he was one of the kings during the War of the Roses

the only thing i remember about him is that he married well beyond his status, i think his wife was the daughter of a minor landower

[icy bison]

I have heard other stuff of his in a recital before 😆

[red moth]

I was wondering, when did women get the right to vote in your countries and did they differentiate between active and passive voting rights?

[dusk fjord]

What is active and passive voting rights?

[red moth]

Passive voting right is the right to be elected into office, active voting right is the right to elect someone into office

In NL for example, women got passive voting rights in 1917, but active rights in 1919.which meant that for a few years, woman could be elected, but not vote

[scarlet venture]

1918 women could be elected to parliament but in 1928 they got the vote, if I'm reading Wikipedia right.

UK ^

[digital sandal]

Looks like women were running for office in the US starting the latter part of the 19th century. I'm not seeing any legislation that allows or doesn't allow that.

Women could vote in the US starting in 1920.

[dusk fjord]

Oh gotcha. I know that in the US Jeanette Rankin was the first woman elected to Congress, which happened before women could vote. I'm not sure if there was separate legislation around it though.

[scarlet venture]

If I remember correctly a woman ran for President in the 1880s

[red moth]

Ah that gap is way longer than here. But than again, it lasted till 1917 till all men got the right to vote

[digital sandal]

Interesting, looks like states allowed women to vote earlier.

The first state to grant women the right to vote had been Wyoming,[6] in 1869, followed by Utah[7] in 1870, Colorado in 1893, Idaho in 1896, Washington[8] in 1910, California[9] in 1911, Oregon[10] and Arizona[11] in 1912, Montana in 1914, North Dakota, New York,[12] and Rhode Island[13] in 1917, Louisiana,[14] Oklahoma,[15] and Michigan[16] in 1918.[17]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage_in_the_United_States

[dusk fjord]

huh, I didn't know that

[scarlet venture]

So if you were a woman you could just travel to Wyoming for the day to vote 😄

[digital sandal]

Well except that you probably had to live in Wyoming :D. So 3 women could vote 😛

[scarlet venture]

Awhh damnit

[dusk fjord]

Now doing some mental math, trying to figure out who would have been my first female ancestor to vote

[scarlet venture]

I was reading about the woman who ran for President in 1872, and this part is interesting to me

[dusk fjord]

Wow so women in Utah could vote for 50 years before the rest of the country

[digital sandal]

Oh interesting!

[red moth]

Wonder what impact that made on elections

[digital sandal]

So to clarify, when a woman could vote in a state, that may not have allowed her to vote in federal elections. It could have just allowed her to vote in state and local elections.

[red moth]

Ah, that's confusing haha

[dusk fjord]

Really interesting summary of women's right to vote in Utah - closely tied to the Mormon church and the push for statehood https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/women-s-suffrage-in-utah.htm

[red moth]

I know that Aletta Jacobs with some friends wanted to go vote, because they paid enough taxes to do so. Then the were like "sorry, no women" "but the law doesn't state that" changes the law "well now it does"

[digital sandal]

Ha, I'm just reading about that too https://historytogo.utah.gov/womens-suffrage-utah/

[dusk fjord]

They had to pay a certain amount of taxes to be allowed to vote? Was that based on income, or just that you had paid whatever you owed?

[red moth]

Yeah it's called cencuskiesrecht. Basically it made sure that only the upperclass could vote, because ofcourse the people with money know what's best for all. That was altered to let more people in till in 1917 all men could vote and 1919 all women

[dusk fjord]

Interesting. In the US originally you had to own land, but the intended effect is the same.

[red moth]

In Belgium it was wurse, as they used unequal votes. Meaning that your vote could count like double than that of someone lowerclass

[red moth]

I think there was a devide between conservative liberals and progressive liberals about where the line would be drawn

[dusk fjord]

I looked her up and am reading about her, she's quite an interesting woman!

[red moth]

First female doctor here, we all learn about her in history class. Funny enough, she was not the first woman elected into Dutch parlement, that was a socialist lady. Jacobs was wealthy enough to be a liberal

[red moth]

She had to ask permission from the prime minister if she could go to uni, which was one of his final acts before he died. She was however, not the first woman to go to uni in NL, that was Anna Maria van Schurman a few centuries earlier, but she never finished

[sharp rune]

the suffragettes were so cool

one of them jumped in front of a horse during a derby which is crazy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Davison#Fatal_injury_at_the_Derby

[scarlet venture]

Horrible histories taught me this 😎

[red moth]

I still always find the word suffragette confusing. Don't think we have a word, besides just feminist

[quartz shell]

1918 but that regime which gave them never held any election, they collapsed before that. The next electoral law (actually a decree i think) which also gave/maintained their voting rights came out in 1919, and they also voted according to it in 1920. Both active and passive. The first female mp in Hungary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margit_Slachta

But electoral laws were changed frequently in the country and there was usually some discrepancy on the requirements between men and women's voting rights (age and/or educational requirements)

The 1945 electoral law was the first which had 0 distinction among sexes. Every Hungarian citizen from the age of 20 had

[icy bison]

@sharp rune Woodhull sighting 😆

[sharp rune]

yup, her husband was descended from the NY Woodhull family who were descended from the Lords of Odell back in England 😭

gdi i should just do a ONS atp

[sharp rune]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granville_Sharp this guy's life is so interesting

he apparently signed his letters as G#, which is amazing

[red moth]

Wow, what a name, Granville

[scarlet venture]

Oh man, there's no Granville (open all hours) gifs

[sharp rune]

i've seen it as a surname but not a name

ah, his great grandma was a Granville https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Grenville-178

[red moth]

Ah, so the Anglican tradition of turning lastnames into firstnames

[red moth]

I think the strangest firstname I have seen for a person was Rhijnvis (fish from the Rhine?) it's still used in that family

[spark lynx]

Rhijnvis Feith comes to mind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhijnvis_Feith

[red moth]

Yep, the only family I know of that uses that firstname

[rigid yoke]

There were also poll taxes. This was often used to prevent minorities from voting in states who had Jim Crow laws, North or South.

[meager ivy]

Women got active voting rights in 1944 in France (except indigenous women in Algeria, who only got it for the vote in 1958, and Senegalese women in 1945).

Iirc one woman was elected mayor in the 19th century. And in 1937 three women were in the government (including Irene Joliot-Curie, Nobel prize and daughter of Pierre and Marie Curie, she was Secretary of scientific research)

My bad, the first women mayors were in the 1940s

[meager ivy]

Got hit by the interconnection of everything in History again.

I was looking at the Wikipedia page for a metro station in Paris (as you do) and the History section starts in 1137 🥲

[meager ivy]

Anyway I’m a in Paris metro deep-dive and this video is nice : https://youtu.be/7ZZo33zrOEc?si=zCBXseLJwnBlC8Fj

[red moth]

@sharp rune i saw the back of the Royal Charles again today👀

[twin flame]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juniper_(friar) lol

[spark lynx]

GRANDPA! 😂

[meager ivy]

Haha 😂 Well you’ll be happy to know he set off a chain of events that led to the creation of the Châtelet-les-Halles station in Paris

[spark lynx]

How cool! Quite a bit more famous than the other chain of events he set off that led to the creation of me, lol.

I had the most amazing luck today. I wandered into a second-hand bookstore in my village in the Netherlands. And they had a book with the title The Knights Templar: From the Days of Jerusalem to the Commanderies of Champagne which features dozens of original charters, including several issued by the counts of Champagne I am currently researching. It even mentions Louis VII and Eleanor of Aquitaine. What an amazing coincidence!

[meager ivy]

Wow that’s a nice find !

[meager ivy]

I went to the National Portrait Gallery in London today, and my first thought was « wow ! This is everyone’s Wikipedia portrait »

[digital sandal]

Was it wonderful to see in person? And yes, totally!

Also you're in London!!!

[meager ivy]

It was ! Someone recommend it to me and I went it not expecting anything. I visited the last floor with the « old » portraits and was pleasantly surprised to recognize a good number of them haha

[meager ivy]

Until Monday morning yes !!

I was also a bit amused by this biography which refused to use a single pronoun for Charles-Geneviève d’Eon (Charles-Geneviève is the Knight’s true name given at birth)

(Look at me also avoiding the pronouns haha)

[sharp rune]

went on a bit of a history rabbit hole. this queen of Akkadia is only known from one fragmentary piece of pottery made 4000 years ago 😢 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tashlultum

[meager ivy]

It's quite dizzying to think the very first empress (her husband's page describes him as the first person ever to rule over an empire) is only remembered by a single alabaster fragment.

On the topic of being remembered. An artifact I was stuck in front at three British Museum was this one. This jar sealing has the name of pharaoh Iry-Hir on it, and he is sometimes considered as the earliest human whose name we remember.

[red moth]

Haha yeah that's an interesting thing to think about

[hoary mason]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalpa_rescue

[lean yacht]

Hey friends anyone pick this up yet

[hardy pollen]

What other stuff of his have you read

[sharp rune]

👀👀

going on my historical TBR list

i love this time period in American history

[lean yacht]

dead wake and devil in the white city were my favorites - i still need to read the one on churchill

[hardy pollen]

The Churchill one is awesome

[twin flame]

https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-topics/c12802/

[quartz shell]

idk if the actual document is digitized online https://www.archiviodistatovenezia.it/it/patrimonio/moreveneto.html i assume it should be among the ambassadors dispatches to the senate? https://asve.arianna4.cloud/patrimonio/4366053a-50f2-4937-b034-e25bc4feba66/001-sotto-serie-costantinopoli-filze but i'm not really familiar with the whole thing

[quartz shell]

as i see (just googling), this is actually not from Venice, but from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paolo_Giovio ' s work, Commentario de le cose de’ Turchi

page 62 https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_rvcZNdMyHLEC/page/n61/mode/2up

certamente parea a tutti che un' leon' arrabbiato hauesse lasciato un' mansueto agnello per successore

but i might incorrectly transliterate it, i cant speak <@&621091002119225370>

It certainly seemed to all that an' angry lion' left a' meek lamb for successor

of course the investigation can be continued, what could be Paolo Giovio's sources for his work

[simple slate]

President George Herbert Walker Bush would’ve been 100 years old today

[twin flame]

https://londonist.substack.com/p/a-new-map-of-medieval-london

[red moth]

Today I learned that, according to Wikipedia, Jenever was the most popular drink in NL from the 18th century till about 1960, when it was replaced by beer again. (and Willem III introduced it to England where it was shortant to Gin)

[red moth]

@sharp rune I just bought a historical novel (which I normally dislike) about Princess Eleonora of England, duchess of Gelderland

[sharp rune]

👀👀

i also used to hate historical novels but i bought one at a charity shop and i fell in love

[sharp rune]

is this her? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_of_Woodstock

daughter of Edward II 👀

[red moth]

Yes

Don't know mutch about medieval Gelderland, but apparently the married the English just like the counts of Holland ^^

[vague viper]

I like how the article embed just like, entirely skipped over the actual painting of her

Like nah, you don't need to know what she looked like. Here's her burial place instead!

[simple slate]

Victoria began her 63 year long reign 187 years ago today

[red moth]

And with tools and parts on the background

[sharp rune]

that's her burial site??? jeez

i thought it was a construction project or something 😭

[red moth]

Yeah it looks like it

Wanna trade her for Willem III? 👀

If I'm ever in Deventer, I'll take a good picture of it

[red moth]

@sharp rune what's your favorite time period btw, I probably asked before, but I keep forgetting haha

[sharp rune]

my favourite time period is 1300s-1400s English history! (followed by late 1700s-early 1800s Europe)

it's just such an interesting time period, i love reading about peasants/the lower class increasing their social mobility: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Chaucer#Origin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paston_Letters#The_early_Pastons

The family of Paston takes its name from a Norfolk village about twenty miles (32 km) north of Norwich. The first member of the family about whom anything is known is Clement Paston (d.1419), a yeoman holding and cultivating about one hundred acres (40 hectares) of land. His wife, Beatrice Somerton (d.1409), is said to have been 'a bond woman', but her brother, Geoffrey Somerton (d.1416), became a lawyer, and it was Geoffrey who paid for the education, both at grammar school and at the Inns of Court, of his nephew, William Paston (1378–1444), son of Clement and Beatrice.[6] William, who is described as a "right cunning man" in the law, attained an influential position in his profession, and in 1429 became a Justice of the Common Pleas. He bought a good deal of land in Norfolk, including property in Paston and Gresham Castle, and improved his social position by his marriage with Agnes Barry (d.1479), the daughter and coheir of Sir Edmund Barry or Berry of Horwellbury,[7] near Therfield and Royston, Hertfordshire.[8][9][10][11]

[red moth]

Ah sounds cool

I have to admit I don't know much about that period in England. Most Medievalist classes I have had focused on the two densely populated parts of Europe

[sharp rune]

i'm planning on studying this time period professionally when i get to university, i've read countless books on late medieval england 😎

[red moth]

Do know that English had either something to do with sheep or cloth trade

[red moth]

Should be enough sources too, from what I see you drop from time to time

[sharp rune]

yeah, medieval England's economy was built on the wool/cloth trade with the Flemish

it was their most profitable source of income

[red moth]

Yeah I remember that from the Flemish perspective.

[sharp rune]

in the House of Lords, there's a big wool cushion called the "Woolsack" where the House speaker sits. it's supposed to represent the fact that Britain was built on the wool trade

[sharp rune]

there is a ton of documentation from that time period, they just haven't been put online 😭

[sharp rune]

do you know if it was as big with the Flemish as it was with the English?

[red moth]

I know they either imported or exported, and there was once a people's uprising because the English changed the rates or something. I think they turned the wool into linnen

Oops, refers, count of Flanders became more pro French, and that hurt business with England. Same thing happend in Holland, although the count got kidnepped by nobels

In this period you can also see how reliant England was on the low-countries, marrying into and off with these nobels as low as counts

[sharp rune]

oh yeah absolutely, i think they'd rather marry into a Dutch count's family than the French king 😂

[red moth]

I would say importance of Western Europe in this late medieval period going into the early modern period went Flanders>Brabant>Holland

Gelderland has a funny history, as it was the Duke dom that managed to escape being occupied for long (except for a short time under Charles the Bold) till it was finally concurred by Charles V

But I'm getting distracted, England

[sharp rune]

when Flanders, Holland, and Gelderland were all independent, was there still an idea of them all being Dutch?

like before Germany was fully unified, Prussia and Bavaria still called themselves "German"

[red moth]

I don't think so. Maybe linguistically, but I can't remember there being an idea of a Dutch people group. A bit later, the word Nederduits was used from time to time, meaning low-german

[scarlet venture]

If im not mistaken that big gold thing in front of it was taken by an angry MP (i only know this because i watched a video of it today lol)

[sharp rune]

lmaooo yeah i remember that

[scarlet venture]

For some reason i randomly watched a bunch of those funny clips from the house of commons today and the comments are right when they say its like a primary school class lmao

[simple slate]

The dotted line is the GA/TN border. The blue line is the 35th parallel, where the border was supposed to be when it was surveyed in 1817. Georgia has tried to correct it 10 times since 1890. The most recent attempt was in 2019

[hardy pollen]

Do people even live in the affected area?

[simple slate]

Yes. It's the southern part of Chattanooga, one of the most populous cities in Tennessee

The main reason Georgia wants it corrected is because we'd get access to the Tennessee River and the Nickajack Resevoir

[sinful cobalt]

hey my old stomping grounds 😄 the border change would be so weird to me since i grew up right by it

[red moth]

@digital sandal I just saw the news that there will be a 3 year study about Dutch violin makers from the 17th and 18th century!

[digital sandal]

Whoa that's awesome!!

[red moth]

The are gonna look throughout Europe to find their violins, which they belief are there, but people just don't know

[ebon latch]

I'm surprised about the low literacy rates of austro hungarians in Argentina, did the country itself also have such low literacy?

[sharp rune]

is this literacy in the Spanish language or their native language?

[red moth]

I think any, otherwise I did not know the English and Swiss were so good at reading and writing Spanish

[quartz shell]

depends on the realm and regions within it. Yes, some regions had very low literacy rates (Galicia, Dalmatia, Subcarpathia, Transylvania) and some ethnic groups in particular, and well, generally not the elite chose to emigrate around the turn of the century

[ebon latch]

yeah lol

But most of these also knew how to read and write in Spanish too obv

[ebon latch]

I guess that makes sense since so many of the immigrants came from Galicia as far as I know

[quartz shell]

oh yea, once i looked up, illiteracy rates in Galicia were on the same level as US Blacks, or at some point even worser if i can recall

[ebon latch]

I was mostly surprised since they were the worst group between the selected ones, I honestly wouldn't have guessed they would have lower literacy rates than Italians at the time.

Oh well, that's not counting the ottoman immigrants lol

[quartz shell]

110 years ago on this day, an Austrian archduke went for a drive in Sarajevo...

[simple slate]

with an open top car and his full route published ahead of time

[quartz shell]

i visited the place a decade ago, including the spot next to the Latin bridge where it happened. Sarajevo btw is one of the most beautiful cities in Europe, i highly recommend it, I loved it

[void prairie]

It would be very interesting to go. I feel like there is more tourism interest in the balkans these days among Americans. Not too long ago I read Christopher Clark’s The Sleepwalkers, which is a great account of the assassination and the July Crisis.

[lean yacht]

my old neighbor Vinko was from Sarajevo, and he said the same thing

[quartz shell]

my heart bleeds so much for that whole country and its people. So beautiful yet so unfortunate

history has not been too kind to them in the last 100+ years

[lean yacht]

i was helping him through language barriers for some unemployment stuff during covid, and he was telling me about his experiences during the bosnian wars and im not even sure what word to describe it with

just horrible

[twin flame]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Thompson

[red moth]

Sounds interesting

[rigid yoke]

Does anybody know anything about Greek and Turkish troops fighting as allies to the Americans during the Korean War. I just read something about an American ship transporting Turkish and Greek soldiers to South Korea.

[forest chasm]

I've never heard about that, but it sounds like something interesting

[rigid yoke]

And now I am curious about Greek participation. They had just fought a civil war, so how was a new government able to field enough trained soldiers to fight in a foreign military action?

[quartz shell]

especially since their civil war just ended, i think they had no lack of trained soldiers with combat xp 😄

[sharp rune]

(sorry to deviate from this topic but i just finished a paper on british slavery and thought this was the best place to put this)

i've been looking into historical Parliament debates on slavery and this debate is very interesting to read https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1823/may/15/abolition-of-slavery

this paragraph here seems way ahead of its time lol

[red moth]

This just made me look up Dutch activity in the Korean War, which no one ever talks about, for reasons

[quartz shell]

Afaik we only gave them (North Korea) some medical help, Hungarian doctors were sent there in tours and established a field hospital named after Mátyás Rákosi (the Hungarian commie dictator of the era). I think its successor hospital is still in operation

I guess other eastern block countries also did the same, sent there doctors

[red moth]

We send 4000 people but didnt want to do so for two reasons: 1. didnt want to start a new WW 2. It would be expensive. (This in combination with losing the war in Indonesia in 1949 were valid reasons), but in the end we did send troups and the navy. Our head did die and then got like 6 knighthood titles postumus. But nobody really cares about the Korean war here, weither its in historybooks or memorial day

[twin flame]

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/African_Slavery_in_America

also the newest entry in my regular "drop a link with no comment"
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/hidden-ancient-egyptian-port-reveals-180984485/

[rigid yoke]

True, but I meant on the ruling side. Also, I have an interesting but anecdotal story about the relationship between the Chinese and the Soviets during Korea.

[red moth]

In regards to slavery, today is 1 July, exactly 161 years since slavery was abolished in the Dutch West-Indies

[lean yacht]

are you familiar at all @quartz shell ?

[void prairie]

Paine always dropping tracks like this

[quartz shell]

wiho, what, where?

[twin flame]

If they could carry off and enslave some thousands of us, would we think it just?—One would almost wish they could for once; it might convince more than Reason, or the Bible.

🔥

[lean yacht]

lol i was way behind on convos here and was accidentally looking at something from last week. disregard me

[hardy pollen]

Yes my great grandmas brother fought in Korea

I think he may have died their

[hardy pollen]

Conscription of those who were just too young to serve in the civil war

[void prairie]

With the anniversary of the beginning of the Battle of the Somme, thinking about this British soldier. Big L for him because he was using the loo when the preparatory bombardment started and the rumbling of the guns caused the roof to cave in on him.

[sharp rune]

god that's awful

imagine surviving the civil war as a child then being thrown into Korea as cannon fodder 😭

[hardy pollen]

Well these would be people in the conscription classes of 1929-1932 so not exactly kids

But it’s still not fun

[void prairie]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Expeditionary_Force_(Korea)

[rigid yoke]

Thank you. I wouldn't know how to search for that.

[hardy pollen]

My great grandmas brother was in the Sparta battalion my grandma might have some stories about him if you were interested

[rigid yoke]

Yes! I love oral history.

[quartz shell]

just ordered it from a second hand book store as it was dirt cheap. History of the Capital Police until 1914. Nearly 600 pages 😋

currently i'm reading a phd thesis about the history of the State Police during the Habsburg Neo-absolutist era (after 1849 to the 1860s) and there it was mentioned in the footnotes

[forest chasm]

Just casually watching my favorite TV show Expedition Unknown when they drop the theory that Alexander the Great's body may be in the Tomb of Saint Mark???

[hardy pollen]

Really

[forest chasm]

Apparently lol

There was some interesting points brought up that support the idea, especially with the fact that in an excavation by Mark’s tomb they found a limestone block with a Macedonian/Greek symbol on it that Phillip of Macedon has on his tomb as well

[hardy pollen]

Ohhhhh interesting

[red moth]

Today I learned about the inventer of gaslight, adding him to wikitree now

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Pierre_Minckelers

[simple slate]

Almost the 200th anniversary of his death

[red moth]

It was, on the 4th of july aparently

[simple slate]

Ah it already happened

His wikipedia page said July 24th but you're probably right

[red moth]

All his sisters died without getting married, but I'm afraid they were all nons, will make it harder to connect

[sharp rune]

he invented gaslighting? smh

[red moth]

Well I could have sworn I read that🤔

[simple slate]

I think Alex means this

[scarlet venture]

no they didn't 😎

[simple slate]

Why don't we ask them

[sharp rune]

i didn't say anything? wdym

[simple slate]

I'm so confused

[scarlet venture]

Then it's working

Or maybe it isn't working

[simple slate]

Alright I get it now 🤓

https://tenor.com/view/usosilly-laugh-haha-laugh-funny-face-fake-laugh-gif-12391005

[hardy pollen]

Hey I talked to my grandma about that uncle and here’s what she told me: Originally he went to fight the Italians in 1940-41 he created a will where everything was to be left with his sisters. He survived that war and when he came home everyone was so happy they ripped up the will because they were so happy that he had survived. Then he went to Korea with the Sparta force and got killed. The USA was offering all of his sisters a sum of money in compensation and they’re half brother who was also a judge came into the picture and scammed them the money leaving them nothing of it.

[rigid yoke]

Oof. Where was the half-brother a judge?

[hardy pollen]

Sparta

From what I heard he was quite famous

[rigid yoke]

That must have given him a lot of leverage in contesting the asset distribution.

[hardy pollen]

Yeah and the original will was torn up

He didn’t treat my great grandmother well.

Her dad promised her she could go to school but then he refused to allow it after he passed away. He also didn’t give her a dowry or anything like that

[snow granite]

The little known evil side of the British monarchy ||or the case of the missing letter "d". Hell of a story to make a typo on||

[meager ivy]

This is not the most historically important, but I just learned that the Earl of Carnarvon, who funded the search of the tomb of Tutankhamun, lived in Highclere Castle, aka the castle from Downton Abbey.

[jolly cove]

Maybe I should start dumping my Wikipedia articles here for people to enjoy. I’m about to create another one

[red moth]

On what topics?

[jolly cove]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Stockade

[red moth]

Oh cool!

I've done a few on civil servants, but only in Dutch

You should totally share the ones you did

[jolly cove]

There are so many lol! I mostly do Black Hills/South Dakota history, sometimes I branch out into other stuff

And I love a good weird museum

[red moth]

@sharp rune Might have made a few mistakes, and definitely some spelling mistakes, but I made this chart for you to explain Dutch Nobility

[sharp rune]

oh my god thank you so much!!

this is amazing

[sharp rune]

ok i had a read through

so all Dutch nobility were raised during the Spanish Netherlands?

[red moth]

Oh no, but I did not want to make a time-line to like 800

[sharp rune]

there are families that predate the Spanish??

[red moth]

During 1581 and 1795, no "new" Nobility could be created, is what I ment

[sharp rune]

ohhhhh gotcha

[red moth]

Ofcourse. During the period where the counts of Holland, duke's of Gelderland etc existed. They were raised into Nobility by the emperor. But that goes for the HRE

Should I have made that more clear in the chart?

[ebon latch]

Literacy rates in 1900

[hardy pollen]

Interesting

[sharp rune]

didn't know that the UK had 90%+ literacy back then, woah

[ebon latch]

I think you underestimate how developed was the UK and specially England at the time lol

[quartz shell]

and the influence of protestantism as i had mentioned before i think and its emphasis on individual bible study

as can be seen for example Finland was not a rich country at all back then

(historical gdp per capita estimated and adjusted to the areas of modern countries as of 1990s)

Spain, Italy for example was richer than Finland back then, yet their literacy levels drastically lower

[solar ginkgo]

For Sweden, incl. Finland, reading ability goes back to the law of 1686, when priests were required to check on their parishioners knowledge in Christianity. This gave them at least rudimentary knowledge in reading. It also led to the creation of household examinations that are used for genealogy (and to check on our ancestors grades!).
Later, in 1842, a new law made it compulsory for all parishes of Sweden to set up schools to teach children both religious and profane subjects. Children would also learn to write with this law.

To continue on this path, Estonia and most of Latvia were provinces of Sweden at the end of the 1600's. They functioned differently from the rest of the kingdom with different laws and having serfdom. Like Shakoor said, Protestantism valued individual bibly study highly. Czech Jan Komensky/Cominus philosophies about educating everyone in their native language was also important during this time. Teachers such as Bengt Gottfried Forselius, with the help of a favourable king Karl XI, set up peasant schools in these areas that used newly created ABC books and bibles to teach in Latvian, North Estonian and South Estonian.

[night oak]

GDP in Finland multiplied by twenty four between the years 1860 and 2009. The second fastest in the world after Japan.

[sharp rune]

veterans of the war of 1812, taken on 21 Oct 1861 in Toronto

[hardy pollen]

That’s neat!

I have been to almost all of the forts from that time that are on the Canadian side of the border

[meager ivy]

History nerds, I have a question. I have been rewatching Downton Abbey and I’m wondering : how long was the train from York to London in the 1920s ?

These characters keep doing one day trip to London when they live in Yorkshire and that must be a good 700-800km to do in a day. (Considering they live in the countryside north of York)

[lyric surge]

Search for London or Yorkshire timetables for the period

[quartz shell]

something like this? although it is from 1939 https://archive.org/details/1939LMS/page/567/mode/2up?view=theater and i'm too tired to interpret now what should i'm looking for

[meager ivy]

Thanks for the link ! I’ll try understanding that tomorrow 😅

[quartz shell]

like here does it mean that the train departing at 04:10 from London Euston station would arrive to York at 11:05? https://archive.org/details/1939LMS/page/253/mode/2up?view=theater

[lyric surge]

I'm not seeing a 4:10 departure

[snow granite]

Yes, that's my understanding of it

[lyric surge]

Yeah I see it now that's i believe pm times

[snow granite]

It's a very roundabout way to get from London to York though, if I'm reading it right? York is east of London, but the train's heading due west to get from London to Bristol

[lyric surge]

Really depends on the line i imagine a number of different lines had different routes

[snow granite]

True. I mostly just mean to say that just because this is a 7 hour train ride doesn't necessarily mean Downton Abbey's day trips are implausible. Though I suspect they probably are. But I'd be curious if there was a better route at the time

[forest chasm]

I read this as New York to London at first and was like they had submersible trains in the Downton Abbey???

[meager ivy]

That’s the plot of the next movie

[sharp rune]

so interesting

that is a lot of dark red on the SC/GA coast 😭

guessing that's around the Savannah area? i read that it was a major slave port in the mid to late 1700s

[sinful cobalt]

Yeah you can see where Savannah and Charleston are

[lean yacht]

@sharp rune looking at maryland in the 1860 census, its so surprising they joined the union

@rigid yoke you're my go-to maryland during the civil war expert

[rigid yoke]

I'm here. What's up?

[lean yacht]

just missed you friend. whats your opinion on maryland during the civil war? what made them not secede?

rich people in baltimore vs people in southern maryland sympathetic to the confederacy?

[rigid yoke]

They tried. And I will explain that soon, but Baltimore is actually where the first blood of the CW was drawn in battle. The Pratt Street Riots, on April 19, 1861, were made up of civilian Secessionists and Copperheads against Union militia en route to DC.

Also, Baltimore was a very split city. It had almost as many free people of color as it did white people. And less than 1% of all eligible voters in Baltimore voted Republican.

Here is a link from the state archives about the sitting governor and his reaction to the "Secession Crisis." https://msa.maryland.gov/msa/educ/exhibits/hicks/html/intro.html

One last thing-the Maryland General Assembly met once right after the riots to discuss secession but was split. And they never met again about that subject because by the time they were to reconvene, 1/3rd of all legislators had been arrested. Lincoln had federal troops arrest them using still controversial constitutional war powers to suspend the right to writ of habeas corpus.

[woeful pawn]

One of my senior uni papers covered The Baltimore Sun's coverage of the Civil War, and them constantly pushing editorial boundaries, despite the proximity to DC. I gotta dig that up sometime -- remember that it was surprisingly sympathetic to the Confederates at times.

[void prairie]

I’m not surprised. Journalism had less scruples then and papers were established as party mouthpieces.

And I suppose it still is unfortunately controversial to arrest traitors but that’s more an indictment of what American culture and historiography than a reflection of Lincoln’s leadership.

[snow granite]

Really fun video on some little-known (I think) Americana. I definitely recommend giving the first five-six minutes of the video a watch, because this guy is great at setting up the story - with plenty of newspaper clippings and other direct evidence to boot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wq67TEu3Gw

[lyric surge]

Yes, I enjoy his cemetery videos

[ebon latch]

Random history fact, Bolivia has an afro royalty

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonifacio_Pinedo

This was their first king

[red moth]

Oh I love royal families like that

Just read about the first black mayor in NL. His father owned a plantation, his mother was enslaved on it. https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Willem_Storm_van_'s_Gravesande?wprov=sfla1

[tame hatch]

General Knowledge decided to do a face reveal and omg 🫠 💗
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gtnhblw0NUA

[simple slate]

You're General Knowledge?

[red moth]

I knew it!

[tame hatch]

oh damn we're doppelgangers 👀

[simple slate]

Stop denying it

You're him

https://tenor.com/view/emjoi-doctor-surgeon-mask-sick-gif-16542088

Ok I'll stop now

[tame hatch]

i'm not that smart 😔

[red moth]

He speaks Portugese, you speak Portugese, all the puzzels fit together

[tame hatch]

it's the portuguese genetics

[simple slate]

He's Portuguese? 💀

[tame hatch]

sadly yes but we can work around it

[red moth]

The Portugese didn't buy any expansion packs, they just went copypaste

[tame hatch]

😆

[digital sandal]

Does this mean you have the hots for yourself?

[sharp rune]

the best kind of love is self-love 😌

[tame hatch]

🤔 damn that's deep

[tame hatch]

today is our Independence Day! happy 202 years, Brazil 🇧🇷

[simple slate]

🇧🇷

[digital sandal]

https://tenor.com/view/malditoperrito-tambora-musicians-band-mexico-gif-18312922

[tame hatch]

INDEPENDÊNCIA OU MORTE

[red moth]

You don't look a day over 199😉

[tame hatch]

aw thank you! it's a mix of good genetics and lots of fruits available

[red moth]

Ah, maybe that's why we don't look as good at our age

[sharp rune]

must be why the English all look decrepit

nobody looks good when they reach 1,000 years old 😔

[tame hatch]

you guys should have taken more advantage of that when you invaded us 🤷‍♂️

[red moth]

Can't make cheese out of fruit, so we left😔

[jolly cove]

Aye but you can put fruit in cheese?

[tame hatch]

wait til you learn about the brazilian dessert Romeo and Juliet

[red moth]

Well we still wanted to be able to go to heaven afterwards, such blasphemy

[tame hatch]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romeu_e_Julieta

cheese and guava jam

[red moth]

Well who's counting😉

[red moth]

It's our fault, we could have been more present in your life's to prevent this!

[tame hatch]

it's a national treasure!

[red moth]

Like any treasure, it should be buried somewhere

[tame hatch]

goiabada 🤌
minas cheese 🤌

put them together and you reach divinity

[red moth]

Because you will reach an early grave, that's why😉

[tame hatch]

when you come to brazil i'll make you try it

[digital sandal]

Oh man this looks glorious

[red moth]

I'll get my raft ready

[tame hatch]

https://tenor.com/view/renévan-densen-i-dont-know-aimless-floating-inflatable-gif-21188463

[lyric surge]

Wait a minute do you die after eating this

[tame hatch]

it's a dessert to die for

[forest chasm]

My roommate and I were talking about sushi and he went down a Wikipedia rabbit hole.

Apparently Brazil must really like cheese because apparently they're the ones who started putting cream cheese in sushi.

[tame hatch]

hahahaha the brazilian take on japanese food is wild. i love it 👀

[twin flame]

9/11-related: ||https://iwilson.net/9-11-the-edit.html||

also for the peeps talking about thinking old people saw in b&w in the olden days:
https://www.loc.gov/pictures/related/?fi=name&q=Prokudin-Gorski %2C Serge Mikha lovich%2C 1863-1944

https://opendata.hauts-de-seine.fr/explore/dataset/archives-de-la-planete/images/?disjunctive.operateur

[forest chasm]

I don't know why I didn't think these existed but of course they exist lol

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/O7mi0aaNOR4?feature=share

[sharp rune]

i don't know if this has been posted before but Historia Civilis' Roman History series is phenomenal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9qlNBBoFG4&list=PLODnBH8kenOrjXjWy7Hhkz9uOpZ3NTAow

[wanton jewel]

^^

[red moth]

It's annoying how I know some, but not all haha

[lean yacht]

We're going to need more info on what happened on these years, I only know a few

[sharp rune]

lmao alright

1453: the fall of Constantinople, capital of the Byzantine Empire
565: the death of Emperor Justinian I, much of the Eastern Roman Empire's territory was lost and fell into a dark age
1475: the Despotate of Epirus and the County of Theodoro were conquered by the Ottomans, the final imperial provinces remaining
476: the Western Roman Empire collapses after a battle near the capital of Ravenna
395: the Empire is permanently split into Western and Eastern halves
It Never Fell: self-explanatory
1922: this assumes that the Ottomans became the new Roman Empire after conquering the Byzantine Empire, and when they collapsed in 1922, that was the end of the Roman Empire
1806: the Holy Roman Empire is formally dissolved. they were designated successors to the Roman Empire by the Pope
1918: since the Austro-Hungarian Empire was the successor to the Holy Roman Empire, you could argue there's a shaky connection back to the Roman Empire itself

[solar ginkgo]

Ah, I was wondering if one of the later years was a reference to Muscovy/Russia being the third Rome! (Not my area of expertise, so maybe it's not considered a legitimate claim)

[sharp rune]

there are tons of more claims you could make! the later the better :P

i saw someone claim that the Roman Empire didn't fall until 2011, when the last Habsburg heir died 😂

[quartz shell]

oh Otto was a nice fella

i remember him (from tv interviews), he could also speak Hungarian nicely

[lean yacht]

how jacked up was his face

[quartz shell]

he had full regular grandpa vibes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkS335NK8ng (here he talks about how he quit smoking and how he worried during the Korean war that world war 3 would start)

and as a child

[red moth]

@sharp rune So I'm doing some research on the Indies in the 1920's and part of the rapport is how the Chinese on Sumatra responded to the Chinese civilwar and Japan, very interesting👀

[sharp rune]

woahhh fascinating 👀

i remember there was a lot of Chinese migration around the Pacific, i wonder how they felt about Mao

[red moth]

Well here they stated they raised the "kuo min tang" flag

But than they also said that "After the English, the Dutch might be the worst imperialists"

They did say more about Japan though, apparently there was a boycot and a few Japanese man were attacked, but that stopped after they were asked not to do that again

This whole document gets a bit bad at the end, just stating how alot of things should be made forbidden

[red moth]

Apparently in februari 1928, there arrived anti-English booklets called "The Revolution" in East Sumatra. It got banned there too

[sharp rune]

that's so interesting

there was a similar thing in America iirc, when Italy invaded Ethiopia in 1934 there was a big boycott on Italian goods

[red moth]

I remember in the Indies, African families gathered money for Ethiopia because they believed they were from there, they were not, but still nice

[sharp rune]

yeah a lot of African-Americans in NYC volunteered to go help the Ethiopians but almost none made it over :/

[red moth]

This document was so interesting, also because the guy that wrote it wrote some very shady authoritarian policestate things, and right after became a member of Dutch parlement for a Liberal Party, like what

[quartz shell]

i imagine it would be very challenging, i mean even if you make to overseas, Ethiopia was landlocked that time, all the easier access points were controlled by Italy?

[sharp rune]

yup, plus the American government wasn't willing to cover the travel costs, so you'd have to pay for the voyage yourself

[red moth]

Couldn't they go via British Somali land?

[quartz shell]

btw what were the Italian-Americans attitude toward it? has it been researched?

[quartz shell]

i dont know the timeline of the war how quickly Italians closed that connection (the strech between Italian Eritrea and Italian Somaliland

didnt Haile Selassie travel to the Legaue of Nations conference or something, idk what route he used

I guess through Sudan or Kenya?

how he travelled to Geneva

[red moth]

Only thing I remember is it took alot of gas and other stuff, and I general other countries weren't to happy with it

[sharp rune]

seems like there was admiration for Mussolini amongst Italian-Americans until the invasion of Ethiopia started to turn public opinion against him https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/nza6me/how_did_italian_americans_react_to_the_us_being/

looks similar to German-Americans in WWI, a lot of them were in support of the Kaiser until the Zimmerman Telegram

[quartz shell]

the whole war went relatively quick, like 1 and half years or something

[sharp rune]

iirc from school, the general opinion was that Italy was in the wrong, but nobody could afford to cut off trade with Italy at the time

same with the Japanese invasion of China

[quartz shell]

oh apparently through Djibouti and from there on a British ship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Italo-Ethiopian_War#Public_and_international_reaction

so that wouldnt be a viable option for foreign volunteers

Haile Selassie sailed from Djibouti in the British cruiser HMS Enterprise. From Mandatory Palestine Selassie sailed to Gibraltar en route to Britain. While still in Jerusalem, Haile Selassie sent a telegram to the League of Nations:

[red moth]

Italy is such a strange one when it come to colonialism because they were just there, and most of their colonies don't really feel linked to Italy. Fun thing is that when the Dutch invaded Aceh on Sumatra, they claimed it was also to prevent the Italians or Americans from doing so. I remember there is a book about photos from the forgotten Italian-Ottoman war somewhere

[quartz shell]

i think in Eritrea it is? i remember seeing once a documentary that there is still some italian colonial architecture and some old people can still speak italian. I think there are also Eritrean expats in Italy?

but dont quote me on it, i just vaguely recall

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Eritrean_cuisine

[sharp rune]

yeah lol, they really weren't in the colonial game for very long, barely a generation. they seized Libya before WWI and it was liberated after WWII

most of their colonies have more Ottoman influence iirc

[quartz shell]

and i think in Libya they also deliberatery tried to remove whatever Italian influance existed, especially during Qaddafi

[red moth]

I'm gonna see if I can find the book, I think y'all might find it interesting. Was for my class on colonial pictures

[quartz shell]

afaik Libya had a considerable number of Italian settlers (similar to the pied noirs in Algeria) but they all had to leave after independence

[red moth]

Main difference would probably be the duration of their stay

[quartz shell]

he was an interesting character of the Italian-Ottoman war and the Libyan resistence during ww1 too https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Şehzade_Osman_Fuad

an Ottoman prince

[sharp rune]

this reminds me, there's a comedian in the UK with the surname Osmanoglu. i think his grandpa was an Imperial Prince or something

[red moth]

Oh that's interesting. I feel like Lybian history doesn't get much attention, eventhough the country was one of the most literate etc countries in Africa till some years ago

[quartz shell]

yea Naz Osmanoǧlu, apparently he is the descendant of the penultimate Ottoman Sultan, Mehmed V

2nd great grandson or something like that

[sharp rune]

yeah that's him

the heir to the Ottoman throne 😍

[quartz shell]

sultan Mehmed V -> son Mehmed Ziyaeddin -> son Mehmed Nazım -> son Mehmed Ziyaeddin -> son the british comedian dude, so yea, that is 2nd great grandson

[quartz shell]

tbh i dont know how many members the dinasty they have, probably hundreds if not more and i think they follow some seniority in succession

[red moth]

Probably the same with being related to the Susuhunan of Surakarta. Dude had 40 kids, his father had 40 kids etc. It's being the favorite or legitimate one there

[quartz shell]

yea typical in Muslim dynasties that practiced polygamy, lots of kids

and they all had lots of kids too

[red moth]

These were all I could find in newspapers and rapports https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Kartasura-17

Here it was that the child by the official wife would be the one. But since there was no it was hard to decide. Since he had several women, the children could be born days away and no one really knew who was the true eldest

[simple slate]

The battle of Hastings was 958 years ago today 👀

[sharp rune]

cablegram about the Wall Street Crash published in a Dutch newspaper in Oct 1929, just before Black Thursday

[red moth]

Which paper?

[sharp rune]

Bataviaasch Nieuwsblad https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:011072527:mpeg21:p007

[runic jay]

Why is this written in English but with a dutch accent

[red moth]

Ah, haven't seen them write any English before, except weird sayings haha, thats why i asked

They even once wrote Missouri is Missoerie

[twin flame]

https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/10/lidar-mapping-reveals-mountainous-medieval-cities-along-the-silk-road/

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crmznzkly3go

cities can run but they can't hide from LIDAR

[sharp rune]

the size of Edinburgh??? 🤯

[nimble berry]

GPR is one of my favorite things to finding lost civilizations in archaeology! It says there's no pictures now, but I would love to see what they're able to unmask of this site

😭

[meager ivy]

This is the opposite of a problem

Research to do for generations

[runic jay]

I typed something like this a couple days ago, but wasn't sure how to phrase it so I stopped. I agree. It sounds selfish that he thinks it's a downside that there's this much to research

[nimble berry]

I don’t mean it as a bad thing 😌 just that it’s sad it’s been lost for so long, and is going to take longer still to properly research all of it (at the risk of time eroding more of its history) but am hopeful it leads to altering discoveries to what we know already 😌

Makes you wonder what else is out there that we just have had lost for so long waiting to be discovered

[ebon latch]

https://x.com/nrken19/status/1854585231061438960

Nrken19 (@nrken19) on X

DNA evidence rewrites histories for people buried in volcanic eruption in ancient Pompeii

https://t.co/1BP2dBQ3ed

Twitter · Nov 7, 2024, 6:02 PM

[red moth]

I mean I see a horse more often than that specific type of car

[lyric surge]

You censored ||Damn|| lol

[sharp rune]

that wasn't me! i stole this from Instagram lmao

[high oracle]

Oh I thought it was demon not damn 😂

[nimble berry]

https://arkeonews.net/mystery-and-unfathomable-king-arthurs-hall-is-4000-years-older-than-previously-thought/

[nimble berry]

https://youtu.be/-sNkgsG3qPU?si=oKi-FBXPSO21QyGN

17th century Polish Woman found buried like she was a Vampire, during The Vampire Panic that swept Eastern/ Central Europe, and a little bit about Elizabeth Báthory ?

Also TIL there was a 19th century New England Vampire Panic that was truly centered around tuberculosis and its spread https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_vampire_panic

[quartz shell]

there was a vampire panic in the 17th century? i thought the vampire belief was mostly a Romanian and Balkans folkthing back then

[nimble berry]

The woman’s grave itself was 1650s but it seems more prevalent throughout Eastern Europe in later 1700s? The documentary talks about how locals during disease outbreaks would keep reopening the graves and putting “more safeguards” in place

[quartz shell]

which region was this Polish woman from? (sorry i cant watch it now)

could be near the Carpathians? i.e. maybe Vlach?

[nimble berry]

Pien, near Szczecin

Article basically with same info as video: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/11/07/science/vampire-woman-facial-reconstruction-poland

[simple slate]

Hartwell Sun, Sep 17 1881

Charles Guiteau was the man who murdered President James Abram Garfield

[lean yacht]

its a shame the guard missed

[sharp rune]

"He says he is sorry he missed him..." 😭😭

[simple slate]

There was a man who was sentenced to death in Spalding County, GA and his execution was set for June 30, 1882, the same day as Charles Guiteau. He asked the judge to change it because he didn't want to be associated in any way with him 💀

A lot of people called for his reprieve because they believed he still had some sense of respect left in him since he refused to die on the same day as Guiteau

He got a new trial and was resentenced to 12 years in 1884

[red moth]

@sharp rune So I was going through a list of governors-general of Suriname, and at least two of them had granddaughters that became American moviestars, whats the odds👀

[molten nexus]

oooh, what are the govenors names?

[red moth]

Dirk Fock (grandfather of Nina Foch) and Aarnoud van Heemstra (grandfather of Audrey Hepburn)

[scarlet venture]

Read that as Dick Fock at first 😂

[simple slate]

Same 💀

[molten nexus]

Interesting

[sharp rune]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw7xXYypFQ0

[red moth]

New French Revolution just dropped

[sharp rune]

haven't watched the video yet but i believe this is the same revolution featured in Les Misérables

[icy bison]

Amusingly nope, it's yet a different one

[meager ivy]

Really ? I thought so too

It is however the revolution from the painting Liberty Leading the People

[sharp rune]

the Les Mis one is the June Rebellion in 1832, this is the July Rebellion in 1830 😭

[meager ivy]

Ah ok. 1832 is not counted in the "revolutions". The way I learned it was 1789, 1830 and 1848. (And sometimes 1870 too)

[meager ivy]

I'm at the part where they talk about the consitution and "no one had used that loophole before". It is important to know that that constitution had only been in place for 15 years at that point

[red moth]

Oh I thought it was about the 1848 one too. (although tbf, I never watched Les Mis

[nimble berry]

https://www.newsweek.com/archaeologist-find-prehistoric-stone-circle-similar-early-stonehenge-1991600

[twin flame]

https://scrollprize.substack.com/p/first-letters-found-in-new-scroll

[trim crow]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/tJQhth0bRMc

[meager ivy]

We talked multiple times about Charlemagne’s ancestors and how a French historian (not historian at the time, he did his thesis and post doc recently though) had a full tree from Charlemagne to Ramses II of Egypt. I found the tree 👀 (notice how half of the links have endless footnotes attached to them lol)

[high oracle]

I love how so many of those footnotes are basically just saying "I have no idea where the fuck they got this info from"

Footnote on page 5: “I have no idea where the DFA charts got this from—I
know of absolutely no evidence for it"

[red moth]

It came to them in a dream

[twin flame]

@keen blade maybe you could contact this place? 🙂
https://www.herder.de/vetus-latina/

[twin flame]

@keen blade https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42448939

secretmark

Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

Hacker News · Dec 18, 2024, 8:31 AM

[keen blade]

Thanks for the links. Contacted Herder was a good idea! They haven't replied yet, but I'm patient.
I don't think the Hacker News discussion is particularly insightful.

[twin flame]

tbf I linked it more just so you could see the story was getting exposure 🙂 I wouldn't expect the commenters there to have much info or even to stay on topic 🤣

[keen blade]

It's nice to see that it's getting traction. 🙂
I wrote the Wikipedia article, and it's getting quite a bit of views. It's going to appear in a story on the main page (in the "Did you know?" section), which should give it a bit of additional exposure as well.

[twin flame]

ooh nice!

[keen blade]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Frankfurt_silver_inscription

Also see the discussion at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Vetus_Latina_manuscripts#Frankfurt_silver_inscription. where I basically asked the same question as here (with some good replies actually).

[keen blade]

They don't even know how to read a Wikipedia article. There are multiple instances where people are looking for the Latin transcription, and some even remark that part of it are quoted in the article. None of them notices that the complete transcription is linked from it, which makes me a bit sad...

One points to a source from the Wikipedia article, saying there was a transcription in that source, which is not true.

[keen blade]

I just found a nice interview with one of the archaeologists who discovered it, published December 16th. He says (my translation from German):

it must now be examined whether the Latin version of Paul's letter to the Philippians is the oldest source for it to date.
https://www.domradio.de/artikel/archaeologe-erklaert-fund-des-christlichen-schriftstuecks-frankfurt
That's basically what I was asking: Is this the oldest known evidence for the Epistle to the Philippians specifically (the oldest manuscript is dated to the late 3rd century, so I think the answer is yes), and for a Latin translation of the New Testament in general (also yes, IMO).

[void prairie]

We talking Latin here?

[simple slate]

March 27 will be 400 years since James I & VI died and Charles I took the throne

[void prairie]

Long live the king

[red moth]

flashbacks to the Anglo-Dutch war

[ebon latch]

The 1 of january of 1872 in Tandil, Argentina occurred the massacre of Tandil, where a group of gauchos killed 32 gringos (Italians) and Basques motivated by xenophobia.

[simple slate]

Were any of them charged?

[ebon latch]

3 of them were

Cruz Gutiérrez, Esteban Lasarte y Juan Villalba

[simple slate]

Guilty?

[ebon latch]

They were executed, yes

[simple slate]

😭

[ebon latch]

I have people who lived in Tandil for a brief period of time, so these could have been my ancestors

[ebon latch]

The main author of this massacre was killed, some people think that by a Basque immigrant

[simple slate]

Damn

[ebon latch]

So were most of the other gauchos lol, the rest weren't charged because they were killed

Crazy to be an Italian celebrating new year and you get slaughtered by a maniac

[solar ginkgo]

With previous talks of flag changes and such, it might be interesting to know that Denmark has changed their coat of arms! Denmark has removed the Swedish three crowns and no more wish to rule over Sweden.

The coat of arms stems from the creation of the Kalmar Union in 1397 when symbols from Denmark, Norway and Sweden were added. Sweden left the personal union in 1523 and Swedish rulers continually demanded that Denmark remove the Swedish symbol. Initially, Denmark's official respone was that the symbol was "totally about the good times in the union". In reality, it was one of the reasons, besides territorial control, for wars such as the Nordic Seven Years' War (1563-1570) and the Kalmar war (1611-1613). Any animosity between Denmark and Sweden is long gone however, so things like this are only used as historical curiosities and banter. 🙂

The new coat of arms gives Greenland and Faroe islands greater prominence. The red cross also gets a slightly different design. Left (old) and right (new)

[quartz shell]

ohh i see it just happened now 2 weeks ago. Is it displayed in many places? in that case it must be a costy change

[solar ginkgo]

Unsure! I think it's relatively sparsely shown and only connected to royalty nowadays. Both Denmark and Sweden have coats of arms with and without a royal prefix. The one's above are the royal version whilst the non-royal is the most common I think for both Denmark and Sweden.

The change came about when Denmark's queen Margrethe II abdicated and her son Frederik X took over. He started an investigation about the coat of arms during last year and the new one was presented just before Christmas. If I understood it correctly, he used it in his new year's speech and then it became "official official" the first day of the new year.

The coat of arms that the average person in Sweden would recognise, probably also true for Denmark, are the "small" coat of arms.

[ebon latch]

Agricultural colonies founded by foreigners in Paraguay between 1870-1963

[hardy pollen]

I’m reading a great book on Neuva Germania right now funnily enough

[sharp rune]

for those of you that have been affected by dwarves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_a_dwarf

[quartz shell]

*against a little people 😄

[clever aurora]

i get chills when i hear this, it sounds so powerful, thought to put it in here as it is for WW2

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGdB3Tu69/

[twin flame]

fyi it's about the Boer War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_(poem)

[sharp rune]

yeah definitely a war you shouldn't idolise

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War_concentration_camps

[clever aurora]

oh sorry i didn't know what it meant..

just knew it was a poem in WW2

[red moth]

That's why many Dutch cities have a Afrikaner-neighborhood

(well because of the Boerwars in general, not per se the concentrationcamps)

[ebon latch]

https://x.com/Magicalspain/status/1879520798941356141

Magical Spain (@Magicalspain) on X

Guatemalan indigenous masks portraying Spanish conquistadors

X · Jan 15, 2025, 1:27 PM

[red moth]

That looks great

[ebon latch]

it kinda looks like your pfp

[red moth]

Exact same angle haha

[red moth]

Guys, new Oversimplified video dropped

[simple slate]

Real

I don't think he uploaded at all in 2024 😭

[red moth]

Mark your calender for next year or so, when the next one comes

[clever aurora]

copperhead1414 sent this to me a bit ago and keep forgetting to post it on here, but it popped up so here it is, so interesting!

https://ar.newcarsz.com/132482/?utm_medium=Archeology_Civilizations&fbclid=IwY2xjawH-Di5leHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHXS3TcNPgQ4_2A47ZWeWaVGRLxfD0KUSlNWGllOXPHvWuzGcqRSdNTiIjg_aem_gMmVhhDICsuxwtTGiCsCeQ

[high oracle]

Very interesting video about an totally unknown Welsh kingdom https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqj1oAPIrmE&ab_channel=CambrianChronicles

[clever aurora]

thoughts on Mary Queen of Scots 2nd husbands death?

[simple slate]

What happened to him?

[runic jay]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lord_Darnley

[simple slate]

Damn

[twin flame]

https://tenochtitlan.thomaskole.nl/

[clever aurora]

this is so cool to see

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZNeoPfHPv/

[digital sandal]

I'm reading a book on York, PA and this is talking about when, in 1863, it was invaded by the Confederate Army. Apparently when they couldn't meet the confederate demands of goods and money, Early (the confederate dude in charge of things) threatened to burn their records. He knew they liked their history! Thankfully he was convinced out of it and then got called away to Gettysburg for the big battle there.

[clever aurora]

not sure where to put this but anyone interested - sam and colby posted

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXNOWJezRyY

basically history - old haunted places

[median yacht]

so some history nerds started chatting in piano discord and about one of my favorite historical eras.... but a historical era I love because I read a fantasy novel loosely set there, and I have a heck of a time remembering what is real history and what is not 😂

(the historical era in question would be the Byzantine Empire, specifically the reign of Justinian I and Theodora, the book(s) in question are the Sarantine Mosaic by Guy Gavriel Kay)

[trim crow]

Someone is talking about an alternate history US where New England becomes part of Canada after the war of 1812, but the Civil War still happens as normal, and I'm just like...

https://tenor.com/view/squint-eye-sad-about-to-cry-gif-12357864

[simple slate]

George Washington would've been 293 today

[lyric surge]

Love the headline

[high oracle]

That reminds of those guys that made a mummy awhile back and then ate it and said they were surprised at the taste.

[lean yacht]

woooo get a whiff of the pleasantness on hatshepsut over here

[violet remnant]

So I went down a wiki rabbit hole on ancient hats ...

I can't find any semblance of a clear answer on this

Phrygian hats it seems were worn during the French revolution, but when did they lose their popularity between then and now ?

Apparently Faroe islanders have a/a very similar cap still in existence

[forest chasm]

I had to look up what those were and google images has scared me

[violet remnant]

To remedy that look up the Paris Olympics mascot,,
It was or at least got inspired by the cap

[red moth]

Went to an exhibition where they showed a reconstruction of the oldest known inhabitant of Amsterdam (for whom they have a body)

[high oracle]

Very interesting video abt an ancient Egyptian mummy buried in rural Vermont of all places. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSJJ5XXM0UY

[clever aurora]

i am learning about the holocaust in school right now

[ebon latch]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Asiento_de_Inglaterra One really learns something new everyday

[midnight girder]

I remember seeing an ancestor of someone who worked there

[void prairie]

Truly important history

[chilly pagoda]

Khazar-Hungarian relations and Karaite influence

During their migration to Europe, the Hungarians (Magyarok) stayed in Khazaria for a long time and were closely associated with the Khazar khaganate. According to the Byzantine Emperor Constantine Porphyrogenitus, the Hungarians were allies of the Khazars and participated in their military campaigns. The main Hungarian leader Levedius was approved by the Khazar khagan and married a noble Khazar woman — a sign of political alliance and dynastic ties.

Around 800, the Kabars, Turkic—speaking rebellious tribes who rebelled against the Khazar kagan, joined the Hungarians. These Kabars, who spoke Khazar and Turkic languages, became the vanguard of the Magyar military force and played a key role in the conquest of the Carpathian Basin. They probably brought with them elements of Khazar culture and creed.

There is an opinion that the Khazar model of dual rule was inherited in the Hungarian power structure: a sacred ruler (kende/kunde) and a military leader (gyula/jila). Later, both titles were combined in the figure of Árpád. According to Muslim and Byzantine authors, one of the Hungarian jils, a military commander, was a Khazar and adhered to his faith, refusing to be baptized.

Since the eighth century, the Khazar dynasty has professed the Karaite form of Judaism, based on the Tanakh and rejecting the Talmud. This influence could spread to the Kabars, and through them to the Hungarian union. The Byzantine chroniclers of the XI–XII centuries report on the "khalisii" — Jews in the Hungarian army who lived according to the laws of Moses, albeit in their own interpretation.

Echoes of the Khazar-Karai influence can be traced in Hungarian place names (Kozar, Kozari, Kozarvar), and the Aba family, which gave Hungary King Samuel Aba, probably had Kabarian origin.

Thus, the Hungarian formation as a people and a state is inextricably linked with the Kuzarim — not only politically, but perhaps also spiritually...

Thus, it is quite possible that the Karaites are not only descendants of the Khazars, but also part of the Khazar-Hungarian heritage, and are also associated with the ancient people of Altai — the Karai. This may explain the Finno-Ugric elements found by scientists in the Karaite culture and language.

[icy bison]

Ftr, the Khazars followed normal rabbinic Judaism apparently, not Karaite! (At least going by several of the sources on the English Wikipedia page for Khazars-this appears to have been the idea of a guy named Vasilii Vasil'evich Grigor'ev, who was trying to "prove" that Crimean Karaites weren't ethnically jewish.)

(Also amusing coincidence but one of the people cited in that section is Hungarian, lmao, Róna-Tas András)

[chilly pagoda]

That's an article from my Crimean Karaite friend

[runic jay]

Wait what

[nimble berry]

Ah yes the great Ohiyeet of 1953 😔

[twin flame]

officially they forgot to ratify it until then lol

[midnight girder]

How can you forget Ohio for 150 years lmao...

[ebon latch]

[twin flame]

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cm23zjknre7o

[sharp rune]

an anonymous monk discussing the (possibly queer?) relationship between King Edward II and the Earl of Cornwall, Piers de Gaveston, c. 1325

[lyric surge]

https://www.medievalists.net/2025/06/british-library-acquires-five-rare-medieval-manuscripts/

[sinful cobalt]

TIL about flour explosions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mill_Disaster

[hoary mason]

anything with dust / small particles is dangerous

[violet remnant]

do NOT throw flour on a kitchen fire, do throw some baking soda tho

[lean yacht]

hey pals just a reminder that the war of 1812 started 213 years ago today. time flies amirite

[jolly cove]

Feels like it was only yesterday smh

[red moth]

So how does the War of 1812 play out in American historical culture today? Are there 1812 reannactors? In my European historical education, its often just one of the wars making up the larger Napoleonic wars, without special attention, so I would love to know. Did later on learn the War of 1812 is different in Canada than the US

[meager ivy]

I don't think it was even mentioned in my cursus (but I didn't specialize in history). Most of our Napoleon chapter was about administrative reforms and dicatorship. "Wars" were mentioned but not looked into detail.

And also the painting of the Coronation of Josephine, spent a lot of time on this one.

Fun story : I visited the Palace of Versailles with friends, and we saw the Coronation of Josephine there, and we had an argument because I swore it was at the Louvre, I saw it there, and they must have moved it somehow ? (It's 6 meters by 10, not that easy) And my friend was maintaining it has always been at Versailles.

Turns out there are two identical copies of the painting made by the painter.

[digital sandal]

I always think about the 1812 overture which is not about America at all! (But is commonly played here and has CANNONS).

My school never covered the War of 1812 but my school also left a lot to be desired. Curious about other people's experiences.

[lyric surge]

The US National Anthem

Not the 1812 overture I was just adding that

[runic jay]

We learned about it a bit. Main thing I took away was about the burning of washington though. Also that our national anthem is about a battle during that war as drillbit said.

Also that andrew jackson came to prominence as a military leader in that war

That’s about all I remember from covering it in school

[jolly cove]

We learn about it some, particularly that the White House was burned

But it’s definitely one of the least-covered wars. I’d say in public schools, most of the focus is on the Revolutionary War, Civil War, and WWII

[midnight girder]

If you want another country's perspective, here it isn't taught. Iirc US history jumps directly from the Revolutionary to the Civil War

And what's taught for those two is quite basic too

[jolly cove]

Also depends what state you’re in—when I lived in Texas, much more coverage was given to the Texan Revolutionary Period, obviously

[digital sandal]

I briefly lived in MA and there was a lot of emphasis on the mayflower and on the salem witch trials.

[digital sandal]

I would agree with this. It was a joke among us that the teacher would always run out of time for the year as soon as we got to WWII

[jolly cove]

YES! Until I got to high school we always ended at WWII. It wasn’t until then that we covered everything past that

[lyric surge]

I think I learned more about the French and Indian war than the War of 1812

[runic jay]

Seriously, lol. We did get to Vietnam but barely.

Oh, I just realized you’re telling it from the teacher perspective

[digital sandal]

Nope from a student perspective. I taught music, not history.

[digital sandal]

I did an independant study on the Vietnam war and that's how I learned about it. We didn't learn about the French and Indian war either. But you know, NYC public schools.

[runic jay]

Ah, I thought even then maybe it could be from being in touch with history teachers, but makes sense

[runic jay]

My school covered US history in 2 years. First year was revolution through reconstruction and second year was everything after. I remember at the very end of the second class talking about Vietnam and the civil rights movement and just barely discussing the end of the cold war and then it got into “well you were there for most of this” (we weren’t, we were born after 9/11)

[red moth]

We mostly talked about "what was NL doing, why did we fuck up, why did we have our most democratic constitution during this period, why did the French basically destroy our finances and introduce fances on bridges in Amsterdam?"

[red moth]

Sorry, was a response to this

[red moth]

I've heard from my American History teacher that it was (maybe is) common in history class to not make it to the end of the book. He made the joking example: "it's the end of the year, but we haven't talked about wwII yet? Well, we won, yeay, lets go"

[red moth]

We don't learn about the US civil war. We did learn US war for independence, but not for itself. It was viewed in the American Revolution led to the Batavian Revolution, which led to the French Revolution.

[red moth]

I wonder how that goes, as I know the Texan revolution was... Not amazing for one big reason

[midnight girder]

Oh it was similar here, the American Revolution being the basis for the rest of revolutions in America

[red moth]

I also wonder how history is taught. Like here, the first 3 years we discussed history chronologically, than the last 2 years we started over again. Up untill the 1500s it's basically "previously on Europe at war and marrying their cousin". Than after that it's "we exist, yeay, now what was everyone doing and how does NL play into this"

[sinful cobalt]

Re: war of 1812, Star Spangled banner and dolley madison saving paintings and documents from the burning White House is all I remember!

[sinful cobalt]

I love comparing this! With my son we are following a chronological history spiral that begins with ancient times, then medieval, early modern then modern history. The idea is that you repeat the sequence three times from elementary through high school, going into more depth each time - we will only get two in. And I have to add in a few years of dedicated American history there somewhere 🥴

school was all over the place for me. Elementary school was totally random and I didn’t have a great sense of when stuff happened. Then it was-
6th - geography
7th - world history
8th - Georgia state history
9th - geography again?
10th - world history
11th - us history
12th - civics

Not enough history for meeee it was my favorite subject, I wanted more!

[icy bison]

Yeah, in history here (outside of classes for specifically us or European history) generally the American revolution is gonna be used as a segue into mentioning the French one! I am pretty sure none of my classes mentioned the Batavian one though rip

(As in it'll be used as the prior focus in lessons leading up to that (if not into federal era stuff with the articles of confederation and early on us stuff in between), not that we mention it briefly🤣)

[icy bison]

I have genealogy things relating to this that might be to do with that reason ope
[Cws for Racism, slavery, and hanging in primary sources for the stuff I'm talking about. Also briefly in this.] ||someone from my ancestors' FAN was hanged in the late 1830s for being part of a counterrevolution and refusing to be sold back into slavery, as was another afro-mexican man. (Who was similarly born in Louisiana like he was, iirc he was one of Joseph de la Baume's children?)||
(Anyway yeah looking at the Mexican sources for the Texan revolution is also quite interesting bc that's a very chaotic time period in mexico (1830s) lmao.

(But yeah anglo settlers wanting to keep slavery in texas was one of the reasons the revolution happened there)

[icy bison]

(Which also goes into Guerrero and the "very chaotic time period" comment 😆)

[runic jay]

We never had a year for specific state history. I mean we covered certain things (namely Lewis and Clark LOL) more heavily in elementary school because they were local, but it wasn’t a big focus in middle or high school.

[icy bison]

Same for elementary other than the state history and geography were both put in there, mine was something like this in Alabama:
(I don't really remember the specifics of what did in middle school)
9th grade was general world history
10th grade was European history
11th grade was us history
12th grade was government and econ instead of history

State history for me was 4th grade iirc

[sinful cobalt]

It’s interesting to me how some states have designated years for their state history. I wonder if there’s a list?

[sinful cobalt]

Ahh yes econ! I want to say ours was civics and econ. Lord that was 20 years ago I can’t remember 💀

[sinful cobalt]

My local history that got covered a lot was civil war.. I went to school next to a battlefield

[icy bison]

https://yellowhammernews.com/alabama-revamps-social-studies-curriculum-for-upcoming-school-year-with-emphasis-on-state-history/

Meanwhile apparently they just changed it to three years of state history in elementary school ope

[sinful cobalt]

THREE

[runic jay]

We hit Lewis and Clark hard because my hometown was their launchpad to the west

[sinful cobalt]

Surely there’s just not enough to fill 3 years of Alabama for elementary age!

[sinful cobalt]

I figured!

“Alabama High Schools will be required to continue teaching … World History … despite the board’s discussions to drop World History. “

What!!

[icy bison]

I don't think the civil war was actually covered much in state history for me in 4th grade ope
(It def was in later years tbf)

[icy bison]

It's moreso "the role of Alabama in us history" but yeah it's. An odd choice

[icy bison]

This is far more odd a choice 😭

[sinful cobalt]

Georgia had a good amount of stuff to fill a middle school year. Colony to civil war to civil rights

[icy bison]

Oglethorpe 😌

Sorry colonial ga and colonial tx being the things I discuss in this channel today are both super ✂️ topics for me lmfao

"Spanish colonialism of the americas" also basically is too atp 🤣

(Mexico, Colombia, "Peru" (Bolivia))

[sinful cobalt]

I want to know their reasoning..

But that might veer into rule breaking territory ;p

[icy bison]

"We asked someone who has never taken a history class in his life what he thinks we should do" [I stress this is a joke and not accurate to whatever real life events led to these choices I just think it was a nonsensical choice]

[red moth]

Yeah the Batavian one mostly failed because of the Prussian invations, but all the revolutionaries moved to France, and thats before the French revolution. So the Idea is that Dutch revolutionaries continued their revolutionary plans and ideas in France (Which is true to an extant)

[red moth]

I believe it wasn't even to keep, legally Mexico had already banned slavery, these settlers just brought it back against Mexican law. At least thats what I remember from a docu i once saw

[red moth]

With how young some states are, would it just be very elaborate, like "in 1844 John Smith had 7 cows, than one died. Thats why this is called Six Cows county"

If we would teach provincial history, others would have a history of 1200 years, and we Flevolanders would have a very interisting afternoon class

[icy bison]

Yeah! They were already illegally doing so in their settlements in texas, legally declaring them "servants" and such. (My research in texas in this time period is in the two least anglo places in the province though, bexar (san antonio) and nacogdoches, so I don't get to see much of what's going on elsewhere other than anglophone settlers who were in Nacogdoches at the time.)

[icy bison]

"In the middle ages this lake used to be smaller then it flooded. On to the engineering part of the afternoon class..." 🤣

[red moth]

"A long long time ago, when your parents were still children..."

[icy bison]

Oops wrong emoji

[red moth]

Whats funny is that at least some places like Flevoland and Almere are named after lakes that used to excist till the 13th century, when it became the Zuiderzee.

So the province of Flevoland is named after a lake that was named by the Romans, take that

[icy bison]

Yeah! I mentioned (really briefly in a dm) somewhere in north Holland that this is also true of earlier today, amusingly

[red moth]

There are plenty, Purmer, Beemster, Aalsmeer etc

[high oracle]

I'm so used to thinking of Lewis and Clark being local here that you saying they were local threw me for a loop lmao.

Don't know why I never thought they also would be considered "local" in other places outside of here.

[lean yacht]

reenacting as a whole seems to be dwindling more and more in USA, but there are some 1812 reenactments. at least in ohio, but i think we focus on it more because of the important battles that happened here and on lake erie. i learned about it in school but it was 99% about oliver hazard perry, mad anthony wayne and william henry harrison

[hardy pollen]

In Canada its a pretty big thing. I have been to all the forts on the Canadian side of the border that were used during the war.

[slim rampart]

#archive-history message one to top this, undated but at least from the reign of George II 1727-1760

[jolly cove]

That’s so cool! Just think of all the pockets it sat in and the hands it passed through.

[slim rampart]

I often think of that when I get handed change at the shop and the coins are from 70s and 80s

[sharp rune]

on this day 56 years ago, the Stonewall Riots began 😌 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots

[red moth]

So I was looking at the American founding fathers on Wikitree and, there are truly that many people considered to be founding fathers?

[icy bison]

Yes! Part of it is we had a lot of people go to constitutional conventions and such, e.g. over 50 folks signed the declaration of independence

[red moth]

I feel like only a few are truly seen as founding fathers though, culturally i mean. Nobody has a painting of the great Gouverneur Morris in their room

(btw, that Morris guy has important decendents in the Dutch East Indies, the family "Van Braam Morris" were civil servants)

[red moth]

By the same standerd, we should have many, but we actually just only see one guy

[icy bison]

Yeah, I do feel like this is possibly related to our distance the new country from the concept of having a king? So having a lot of early mythologized historical figures fits that some.

*wanting to distance

Anyway obligatory wow we have our very own founding father of the Netherlands here, @proper kayak

[red moth]

Oops sorry, its by his brother Staats Morris (love the clear lastname become firstname for both of them haha)

[red moth]

Even better, he is the "father of the fatherland"

[red moth]

Well its actually funny because our father of the fatherland is actually historically known for having no intention of getting the country to independence

The Dutch plakkaat van verlatinghe just states that like "the king is a tyrant, and if the king is unjust, we have a right to remove him", but it didnt say anything about independence (as in, become a republic)

[icy bison]

How many an independence movement starts 🤣

[red moth]

He asked Elizabeth I if she wanted to be Lord (i guess lady in this case) of the Netherlands, she didnt really want to, send some English guy that everybody hated

Than Willem was like "trust me, this French prince is our new lord, he's great", than that French prince was terrible, even attacked them etc. Than Willem didn't have any ideas anymore

Than he got assassinated in 1584. And only in 1588 were they like "you know what, we don't need anybody, lets become a confederation"

(In theory the country could be said to have been formed with the Union of Utrecht, but that's a different story)

[red moth]

Robert Dudley btw

[red moth]

Oops i have the timeline wrong, this happend between the death of Willem and the founding of the Republic

But anyways, back to the founding fathers of the US

So did you like, have to learn them or do schoolproject or something?

[icy bison]

Generally you'll end up learning the more important ones (Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Hancock, Hamilton, Lee, Jay, Madison, etc) from taking history in school, yeah! They crop up a lot in politics and such between 1750-1825 generally

[red moth]

(btw, in 1814 when Willem I, souvrain prince, later king, wrote a constitution, there was a special vote with 474 members. I guess they could count for something. But I guess if a country is old enough, it has to many foundings haha. But I'm adding those to Wikitree)

[red moth]

Who was the last one to sign? I know it took a while, I believe Franklin stated something like "July 7th will go down in history" or something like that

[proper kayak]

Founding father reporting for duty o7

[icy bison]

Okay I happened to look to see what wikipedia editors think for how many founding fathers we habe